Ted's IQ Level
new_...@email.msn.com
there's no way in hell he could have an IQ at the 160-170 level. Well, I
think otherwise. First off, I'm no genius (well, duh), yet even I can
EASILY score above the 98th percentile on just about ANY IQ test (assuming
there is little or no cultural bias.) And, even though some have said his
Manifesto is junk, I would have a hard time writing a paper of such length
as coherently; thus, I can only assume he is well above me. Just go to
rec.org.mensa and you'll see a bunch of people who don't even come close to
Ted (or to the members of this board, for that matter.) Additionally, IQ is
an indicator of one's _potential_ more than anything else -- there is NO
requirement for a person with a high IQ to "act" smart or even to manifest
it in any way (my senior year I even had a GPA of 0.5 at one point!!!)
Perhaps those who are putting Ted down are just out to appear impressive.. I
digress.
I mean, if you can solve this:
1..26..3..23..5..20..7.. ?
and this:
Which word is spelled incorrectly --
(A) cat (B) dawg (C) mouse (D) horse
..then you should have no problem whatsoever scoring above 115 (the 85th
percentile) on any IQ test.
So what's the big deal with Ted's supposed IQ? What's the fuss??
The guy was a mathematician; he graduated from Harvard and went on to earn a
doctorate in mathematics at Michigan. Not to mention, he went on to teach
at UC-Berkeley.
Here is an interesting chart developed by Dr. Catherine Morris Cox:
Common possessors Designation Intelligence interval --
Pupils at junior high school Average 85 - 115
Pupils at senior high school Above average 115 - 125
University graduates Gifted 125 - 135
Intellectuals Highly gifted 135 - 145
Professors Genius 145 - 155
Genius 156 - 165
High genius 166 - 180
Highest genius 181 - 200
Unmeasurable genius 200+
She designates professors with an average IQ between 145 and 200. Ted
taught at an elite school; so, an IQ between 160-170 sounds about right.
Here is another chart developed by Dr. Cox (estimating IQs of geniuses in
history):
Table II
Name Nationality Active as & Comments IQ
John Stuart Mill England Philosopher/Economist/Political theorist 200+
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Germany Poet/Writer. Universal genius.* 200+
Emanuel Swedenborg Sweden Religious writer. Universal genius. 200+
Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz Germany Philosopher/Mathematician, etc. The
greatest universal genius together with Leonardo da Vinci.* 200
Blaise Pascal France Mathematician/Physicist/Religious thinker 200
Bobby Fischer U.S.A. Chess player 190
Ludwig Wittgenstein Austria Philosopher 190
René Descartes France Philosopher/Mathematician 180
Sofia Kovalevskaya Russia/Sweden Mathematician/Writer 170
Thomas Chatterton England Poet/Writer 170
Charles Darwin England Naturalist 165
George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans) England Writer - Close friend to J.S. Mill.
160
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Austria Composer 160
George Sand (Aurore Dupin) France Writer 150
Well, an IQ of 160-170 puts Ted Kaczynski with Mozart! Pretty cool.
Some have said that Ted's IQ might have been inflated by the early training
his mom gave him -- so what? Nobody ever said that IQ is purely the result
of genetics; not even Arthur Jensen! (He believes it to be closer to 80%).
If his mom's early training enhanced Ted in any way, we can assume it, for
the most part, stuck with him into adulthood. (After all, aren't we
constantly "building" ourselves each day of our lives?)
Also, most IQ tests have a very low ceiling (as simple as I am, even I have
encountered this problem). Nowadays, some IQ tests are capped as low as
150, and even some at 140! So, just as one can argue that Ted's IQ really
isn't as high as 160-170, one can just as reasonably argue his IQ was
drastically underestimated. The geeks in the IQ forums will spend all day
complaining to you about this.
:oP
scr...@cyberpass.net
Yep, and I've stayed out of this piece of intellectual handjobbing
until now. IQ scores are fairly close to meaningless.
> Here is an interesting chart developed by Dr. Catherine Morris Cox:
More interesting, the only place on the web I could read more about
Cox' data was a website in Sweden which appeared to me to load at
about 7 bytes per second, so I gave up. Would you mind telling us at
which university Professor Cox works?
> Here is another chart developed by Dr. Cox (estimating IQs of geniuses in
> history):
Now, did she administer the test with a Ouija board or by automatic
writing?
> John Stuart Mill England Philosopher/Economist/Political theorist 200+
> Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Germany Poet/Writer. Universal genius.* 200+
> Emanuel Swedenborg Sweden Religious writer. Universal genius. 200+
> Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz Germany Philosopher/Mathematician 200
> Blaise Pascal France Mathematician/Physicist/Religious thinker 200
I'm going to leave it to Scott to tell me if a number of these dead white
guys didn't overlap with one another. Why am I wondering? Well, one
place which references the Swedish website is some kind of IQ wank site.
I took a look at the requirements for the "triple nine" society (amusingly
enough, these "one in one thousand geniuses" will take either GRE or SAT
scores for admission - neither of which is an IQ test, as the forms at the
beginning of the books go to some length to explain, but, hey, if you want
to prove you're a DAMN GENIUS, ALICE, AND GET ME ANOTHER BEER, who cares what
the fellas who designed the test think it measures, right?
Having discovered that, I wondered about the more exclusive Mega society -
one person in a million. Thank ghod, they won't take my GRE scores
in lieu of an IQ test. They have a couple of tests of their own.
However, there's an interesting discussion about the theoretical possibility
of lots of 200+ IQs running around, which is derived on the site from
commonly used statistics. To wit: "the IQ of the most intelligent person in
the world is about 200 (corresponding to 1 in 6 billion) BY DEFINITION and
the IQ of the most intelligent person that ever lived is no higher than 202
(corresponding to 1 in 10 billion), again, BY DEFINITION. Therefore, scores
above 202 are invalid BY DEFINITION. (from
http://prometheus.wwwh.com/issue82.html)
Which brings us back to Perfesser Cox. If I'm right, that a number of
her "200+" IQs overlapped - in a vastly less-populated century, no less -
then I'm afraid it'd help, plenty, if she sat in on a stats course.
> Bobby Fischer U.S.A. Chess player 190
Why didn't someone just give Fischer the test? Oy.
> a very low ceiling (as simple as I am, even I have
> encountered this problem).
Ah, New Luser? Hitting your forehead on the ceiling in your parents' basement
when you'd had a lot of brewskis that night that they let you host the Star
Trek party down there is *not* the example you think you're fishing for.
-Peter
"but you did look cute in the ears, before your kid brother had one too many
and puked all over 'em"
scr...@cyberpass.net
ObScott: the thread went up about 13 months ago, the one with the longish
critique of the Manifesto.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
m...@hotpop.com
1800's. so did many others on the "supergenious" list. am i mistaken,
or were IQ tests not "really" developed until around world war 2? or
a little before, but definately in the 1900's.
i seriously doubt that even MANY professors have iq's of 145-155.
and everyone knows that you cannot "Change" youre iq.
seriously, their is no way in hell that we could have precisely measured
mozart's iq, although it wouldnt be farfetched to claim that we have
an accurate iq score of einstein, since he did live during the days
of iq development.
their is a woman today who has the highest tested iq score ever, 220. i forget
her name. i must say that i have not heard of any of her scientifical
or mathematical discoveries.
i have read that iq scores decline with age, does anyone know at what
age youre iq peaks? and at what age it begins its decline?
In article <uzBlRFLd#GA.92@upnetnews03>,
<new_...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> Here is an interesting chart developed by Dr. Catherine Morris Cox:
>
> Common possessors Designation Intelligence interval --
>
> Pupils at junior high school Average 85 - 115
> Pupils at senior high school Above average 115 - 125
> University graduates Gifted 125 - 135
> Intellectuals Highly gifted 135 - 145
> Professors Genius 145 - 155
> Genius 156 - 165
> High genius 166 - 180
> Highest genius 181 - 200
> Unmeasurable genius 200+
>
> She designates professors with an average IQ between 145 and 200. Ted
> taught at an elite school; so, an IQ between 160-170 sounds about right.
>
> Here is another chart developed by Dr. Cox (estimating IQs of geniuses in
> history):
>
> Table II
> Name Nationality Active as & Comments IQ
>
> John Stuart Mill England Philosopher/Economist/Political theorist 200+
>
> Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Germany Poet/Writer. Universal genius.* 200+
>
> Emanuel Swedenborg Sweden Religious writer. Universal genius. 200+
>
> Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz Germany Philosopher/Mathematician, etc. The
> greatest universal genius together with Leonardo da Vinci.* 200
>
> Blaise Pascal France Mathematician/Physicist/Religious thinker 200
>
> Bobby Fischer U.S.A. Chess player 190
>
> Ludwig Wittgenstein Austria Philosopher 190
>
> René Descartes France Philosopher/Mathematician 180
>
> Sofia Kovalevskaya Russia/Sweden Mathematician/Writer 170
>
> Thomas Chatterton England Poet/Writer 170
>
> Charles Darwin England Naturalist 165
>
> George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans) England Writer - Close friend to J.S. Mill.
> 160
>
> Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Austria Composer 160
>
> George Sand (Aurore Dupin) France Writer 150
>
> Well, an IQ of 160-170 puts Ted Kaczynski with Mozart! Pretty cool.
>
> Some have said that Ted's IQ might have been inflated by the early training
> his mom gave him -- so what? Nobody ever said that IQ is purely the result
> of genetics; not even Arthur Jensen! (He believes it to be closer to 80%).
> If his mom's early training enhanced Ted in any way, we can assume it, for
> the most part, stuck with him into adulthood. (After all, aren't we
> constantly "building" ourselves each day of our lives?)
>
> Also, most IQ tests have a very low ceiling (as simple as I am, even I have
> encountered this problem). Nowadays, some IQ tests are capped as low as
> 150, and even some at 140! So, just as one can argue that Ted's IQ really
> isn't as high as 160-170, one can just as reasonably argue his IQ was
> drastically underestimated. The geeks in the IQ forums will spend all day
> complaining to you about this.
>
> :oP
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
David Buchanan
I guess that would be me and I'd be happy to discuss TK's alleged
160-170 IQ as soon as I get a bit of time to prepare a proper
response to your comments. And no I'm not convinced.
In the meantime, thanks for the all the useful information you
have provided and a question or two.
>...
>Here is an interesting chart developed by Dr. Catherine Morris Cox:
>
>Common possessors Designation Intelligence interval --
>
>Pupils at junior high school Average 85 - 115
>Pupils at senior high school Above average 115 - 125
>University graduates Gifted 125 - 135
>Intellectuals Highly gifted 135 - 145
>Professors Genius 145 - 155
> Genius 156 - 165
> High genius 166 - 180
> Highest genius 181 - 200
> Unmeasurable genius 200+
>...
I'm a little confused by the rating of "Professors Genius
145-155" followed by the scale listing Genius at "156 -165" which
seems contradictory. Also these numbers appear somewhat higher
than those appearing in the old psychology textbooks which I have
consulted. Is there any possible confusion between different IQ
tests and scales?
DB
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Scott Corey & Mary Foley
> > John Stuart Mill England Philosopher/Economist/Political theorist 200+
> > Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Germany Poet/Writer. Universal genius.* 200+
> > Emanuel Swedenborg Sweden Religious writer. Universal genius. 200+
> > Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz Germany Philosopher/Mathematician 200
> > Blaise Pascal France Mathematician/Physicist/Religious thinker 200
>
> I'm going to leave it to Scott to tell me if a number of these dead white
> guys didn't overlap with one another. Why am I wondering? Well, one
> place which references the Swedish website is some kind of IQ wank site.
Putting me to work again? In a good (and wry) cause, so here goes.
Mill was much younger, but he and Goethe were contemporaries. Leibnitz
and Pascal overlap by more than 20 years. Pascal was gone by the time
Swedenborg was born, but Leibnitz was still around and Goethe was about
23 when Swedenborg died. To press your point beyond the given list,
Isaac Newton's life overlapped Pascal, Leibnitz, and Swedenborg. And
what do we say about statistical definitions of genius when two people
(Newton and Leibnitz) independently develop differential calculus at
almost the same time?
Pascal 1623-62
Newton 1642-1727
Leibnitz 1646-1716
Swedenborg 1688-1772
Goethe 1749-1832
Mill 1806-73
Saying that everyone who does really, really smart stuff has a 200 IQ
is a little like saying that everyone who wins an Olympic Gold Medal in
any sport should get a 10 in gymnastics. The main difference is that
everyone knows from the outset that the 10 is a judgment, while this
sort of thing turns a defined curve into an open ended, absolute scale
IQ scores are useful, but only as an indicator. Mensa and its ilk are
clubs for people who like to practice getting better at taking tests,
and patting each other on the back for doing so (independent of whether
anyone ever learns anything substantive). I believe you're right that
GRE and SAT are not true IQ tests, but they are striving to measure
ability instead of knowledge, so the comparison is not totally
inappropriate.
> ObScott: the thread went up about 13 months ago, the one with the longish
> critique of the Manifesto.
OK, I'll see if I can dig that up.
Scott
chest...@my-dejanews.com
> there's no way in hell he could have an IQ at the 160-170 level. Well, I
> think otherwise. First off, I'm no genius (well, duh), yet even I can
> EASILY score above the 98th percentile on just about ANY IQ test (assuming
> there is little or no cultural bias.) And, even though some have said his
> Manifesto is junk, I would have a hard time writing a paper of such length
> as coherently; thus, I can only assume he is well above me. Just go to
> rec.org.mensa and you'll see a bunch of people who don't even come close to
> Ted (or to the members of this board, for that matter.) Additionally, IQ is
> an indicator of one's _potential_ more than anything else -- there is NO
> requirement for a person with a high IQ to "act" smart or even to manifest
> it in any way (my senior year I even had a GPA of 0.5 at one point!!!)
> Perhaps those who are putting Ted down are just out to appear impressive.. I
> digress.
I'm not sure what IQ measures except precocity. Kaczynski is clearly a very
smart person.
> Here is an interesting chart developed by Dr. Catherine Morris Cox:
> Common possessors Designation Intelligence interval --
> Pupils at junior high school Average 85 - 115
> Pupils at senior high school Above average 115 - 125
> University graduates Gifted 125 - 135
> Intellectuals Highly gifted 135 - 145
> Professors Genius 145 - 155
> Genius 156 - 165
> High genius 166 - 180
> Highest genius 181 - 200
> Unmeasurable genius 200+
> She designates professors with an average IQ between 145 and 200. Ted
> taught at an elite school; so, an IQ between 160-170 sounds about right.
Being a professor unfortunately is not a sure sign of intelligence. I have
had professors with plenty of initials after their names who could not
formulate a grammatical sentence in their native English.
> Here is another chart developed by Dr. Cox (estimating IQs of geniuses in
> history):
> Table II
> Name Nationality Active as & Comments IQ
> John Stuart Mill England Philosopher/Economist/Political theorist 200+
> Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Germany Poet/Writer. Universal genius.* 200+
> Emanuel Swedenborg Sweden Religious writer. Universal genius. 200+
> Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz Germany Philosopher/Mathematician, etc. The
> greatest universal genius together with Leonardo da Vinci.* 200
> Blaise Pascal France Mathematician/Physicist/Religious thinker 200
> Bobby Fischer U.S.A. Chess player 190
> Ludwig Wittgenstein Austria Philosopher 190
> René Descartes France Philosopher/Mathematician 180
> Sofia Kovalevskaya Russia/Sweden Mathematician/Writer 170
> Thomas Chatterton England Poet/Writer 170
> Charles Darwin England Naturalist 165
> George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans) England Writer - Close friend to J.S. Mill.
160
> Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Austria Composer 160
> George Sand (Aurore Dupin) France Writer 150
I find these IQ lists rather silly, The historical figures who appear on
them are merely people who have gone down in history. Most are aristocrats,
not slaves, yet it is just as likely slaves were as smart as aristocrats. In
addition, some aristocrats may have gotten credit for what slaves did. A
list that says so-and-so was the "greatest universal genius" indicates that
the listmaker understands little about history.
In addition, the intellectual "achievements" of some of these "geniuses" are
not exactly earthshattering. Thomas Chatterton, a child prodigy from the
English slums, convincingly forged some Shakespeare poems before dying at an
early age, but his works don't really rise to the literary level of, say,
mystery writer Cornell Woolrich. So how were these IQs derived? Did Cornell
Woolrich start out a subgenius and gain IQ over the years until he was a
genius like Thomas Chatterton?
> Some have said that Ted's IQ might have been inflated by the early training
> his mom gave him -- so what? Nobody ever said that IQ is purely the result
> of genetics; not even Arthur Jensen! (He believes it to be closer to 80%).
> If his mom's early training enhanced Ted in any way, we can assume it, for
> the most part, stuck with him into adulthood. (After all, aren't we
> constantly "building" ourselves each day of our lives?)
>
> Also, most IQ tests have a very low ceiling (as simple as I am, even I have
> encountered this problem). Nowadays, some IQ tests are capped as low as
> 150, and even some at 140! So, just as one can argue that Ted's IQ really
> isn't as high as 160-170, one can just as reasonably argue his IQ was
> drastically underestimated. The geeks in the IQ forums will spend all day
> complaining to you about this.
>
> :oP
-- Chester
True crime fan? Mystery lover? K9 detective? Merely demented?
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