Fate After Death for Elves and Men
Bolwerk
Elves and Men have different fates in death, Men going to a fate "beyond
the end of the world" that only two of the Valar knew about. It's clear to
me that only in rare incidences did Men escape their "gift" granted them
by Illuvatar. I can only count two such incidences, one being where Beren
died and came back (it was obviously temporary, as he eventually was to
face the fate of Men again), and the other when Earendil was allowed to be
counted among the Elves.
I was wondering if Tolkien suggested whether there would be a time when
Elves and Men would be able to reunite after the end of the world. It
seems that Arwen's parting with the Eldar to marry Aragon and die a mortal
was a great source of pain for her father, and it in many ways seems (to
me) unlike the overall optimistic Tolkien to want to inflict such sorrow
on a character.
I think at the end of the RoTK, Galadriel mentioned to Treebeard that they
would meet again after the end of the world, but Treebeard may or may not
share the same fate as Men (as far as I know anyway). Galadriel may only
have been being optimistic herself there anyway.
Pradera
> I was wondering if Tolkien suggested whether there would be a time
> when Elves and Men would be able to reunite after the end of the
> world. It seems that Arwen's parting with the Eldar to marry Aragon
> and die a mortal was a great source of pain for her father, and it in
> many ways seems (to me) unlike the overall optimistic Tolkien to want
> to inflict such sorrow on a character.
>
lol. Tolkien 'optimistic'? You've read Silmarillion - including Tale of
Turin, I suppose - and you still believe that?
AFAIK, though Tolkien changed his views on that fundamental matter a few
times, Elves are bound to Arda and are in fact less 'immortal' than Men,
whose souls will exist beyond space and time of Arda. Elves are only as
long lived as Arda itself, and with the end of the world, so perish they
(as elves, at least. They may continue in some other form, I'm not sure).
Men continue on in something that Tolkien never explicitly named, but
which is hinted at as christian Paradise.
Arwen chose the fate of Men and will go wherever souls of Men go, so she
will never meet her father again. Nor will her brothers. Well, that's the
life (and death) of a half-elf.
BTW, the third human who has different fate is Turin Turambar, who will
be partaking in the last Great War with Morgoth, but I don't remember
what happens to him next, or if there is anything told about it.
--
Pradera
---
The Greatest Tolkien Fan Ever(tm)
Books are books, movies are movies, PJ's LotR is crap.
http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/
http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/
Bolwerk
> lol. Tolkien 'optimistic'? You've read Silmarillion - including Tale of
> Turin, I suppose - and you still believe that?
I was being partly tongue-in-cheek, partly serious. I guess it would be
better to say he leaves open the possibility of optimism in many
situations (hence his unaddressed vagueness about the fate of men and
orcs, or the ever-so-slim possibility of the Entwives still existing).
> Elves are only as long lived as Arda itself, and with the end of the
> world, so perish they (as elves, at least. They may continue in some
> other form, I'm not sure). Men continue on in something that Tolkien
> never explicitly named, but which is hinted at as christian Paradise.
I always took for granted that both Men and Elves had immortal souls. A
part of RoTK that has always confused was where Galdriel and Celeborn were
speaking with Treebeard in the chapter "Many Partings" (this is page 281
in my book):
Treebeard: "...I do not think we shall meet again."
Celeborn: "I do not know, Eldest."
Galadriel: "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the
wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may
meet in the Spring. Farewell!"
I'm not sure what the means, but it sounds like a post-Ragnarok paradise
(the renewed world after the final battle of good and evil in Norse
mythology). Again, I really don't know Treebeard's fate in the scheme of
things. That he's mortal in some sense seems pretty certain, but his life
is VERY long. Gandalf mentions that Men may finally outlast the Ents in
the Fourth Age.
> Arwen chose the fate of Men and will go wherever souls of Men go, so she
> will never meet her father again. Nor will her brothers. Well, that's
> the life (and death) of a half-elf.
I sort of assumed her brothers might end up going over the sea
eventually, if they chose. I believe that Celeborn, who was not a
half-elf, stayed after Galadriel left and dwelled in Rivendell with
Elrond's sons, but I assume he went over the sea eventually. Elrond's
sons, I figured, might leave if they chose (I'm not aware of Tolkien
addressing the issue of what became of them after the War of the Ring; did
he?). It seems to me that ships were still leaving the Havens for at least
four, five, or six decades after Frodo left (Sam supposedly left before he
died). Legolas I think created his own ship and sailed into the West with
Gimli more than a hundred years after Frodo's departure.
In one of the appendixes, Arwen mentions that no ship still existed that
would bear her into the West when Aragorn suggests that she might still
leave. I don't know if that means that all the ships had left, or if it
just meant that she was incapable of leaving (perhaps having advanced in
age herself and already living her chance to share in the gift of the
Elves).
I think I have the fates of Men and Elves down pat pretty well. I was just
wondering if there is a small chance that after the end of Arda and the
world that you mention, which also seems to carry an uncertain doom for
the Eldar, whether the Elves and Men who dwelled together in Middle Earth
might know each other again. The fate beyond the end of the world seems
very uncertain for both Elves and Men.
Steuard Jensen
<pan.2004.01.20....@no.org>:
> It's clear to me that only in rare incidences did Men escape their
> "gift" granted them by Illuvatar. I can only count two such
I can't count any. :)
> one being where Beren died and came back (it was obviously
> temporary, as he eventually was to face the fate of Men again)
As you say, that was strictly temporary: Beren didn't in any sense
escape the Gift of Men, he simply had it delayed a little. (Not
delayed nearly as long as it was for, say, Gollum or the Nazgul!)
> and the other when Earendil was allowed to be counted among the
> Elves.
But Earendil wasn't a "Man" in the first place (at least according to
the decision of the Valar, though Mandos seemingly disagreed): he was
equal parts Elf and Man. That was the justification for granting him
a choice (and I can only assume that the decision to do so was
approved by Iluvatar, which may even be stated somewhere), and for
granting the same choice to his wife and children. (Apart from that
case, you're absolutely right: the Gift of Men was very much the
default state, and it seems that a person with any fraction of human
ancestry was treated as human for these purposes.)
So, ok, maybe one exception. :) But with a particularly good reason!
> I was wondering if Tolkien suggested whether there would be a time
> when Elves and Men would be able to reunite after the end of the
> world.
Yes, actually. The relevant writing is the "Athrabeth Finrod ah
Andreth" in _Morgoth's Ring_, which relates a philosophical discussion
between Finrod Felagund and a human wise woman (Andreth). It's a
great essay, and it shows the two of them reasoning out the fates of
Elves and Men by piecing together the bits and pieces of what had been
revealed to each race separately. They don't reach many certain
conclusions, but Finrod is hopeful in the end that the Elves will be
brought back after the end of time, when the world has been remade in
an "unmarred" state, as teachers of the humans when they came there.
But that's a poor summary, and it is of course only Finrod's guess,
colored by his hope and trust in Iluvatar's goodness (and his fear of
the Elves' ultimate death in the distant future).
One might also draw a hopeful conclusion like this from the statement
in the Ainulindale that the Second Music was prophecied(?) to involve
both the Ainur and the "Children of Iluvatar", not the Ainur and the
spirits of Men.
> It seems that Arwen's parting with the Eldar to marry Aragon and die
> a mortal was a great source of pain for her father, and it in many
> ways seems (to me) unlike the overall optimistic Tolkien to want to
> inflict such sorrow on a character.
The incredible permanance of their parting was the source of much of
its great sorrow, I think; I get the feeling that Elrond didn't
believe that he would be seeing her again, ever. (He already went
through that parting once with his brother; I doubt that he had ever
expected to go through it again.) But his sorrow could have simply
come from the uncertainty of the outcome (much like the sorrowful
partings between parents in Europe when their children moved to
America before the days of cheap and easy travel): it was all too
possible that their parting was forever, even if there was the remote
chance of a reprieve.
But Tolkien did "fall prey" to optimism in a number of cases
(once or twice to the detriment of the story, in my opinion). To
quote the end of the Tolkien FAQ's entry on the Entwives:
'T.A. Shippey has noted that "he was in minor matters soft-hearted"
(RtMe, 173). (Thus, Bill the pony escapes, Shadowfax is allowed to
go into the West with Gandalf, and in the late-written narratives
of UT Isildur is shown using the Ring far more reluctantly than the
Council of Elrond would suggest (UT, 271-285) and a way is
contrived so that Galadriel might be absolved from all guilt in the
crimes of Feanor (UT, 231-233)).'
(The Galadriel changes in particular feel "forced" to me.)
> I think at the end of the RoTK, Galadriel mentioned to Treebeard
> that they would meet again after the end of the world, but Treebeard
> may or may not share the same fate as Men (as far as I know
> anyway). Galadriel may only have been being optimistic herself there
> anyway.
I suspect that she was echoing Finrod's conclusions from the
Athrabeth; she may have spoken to him of those issues after the debate
in question. (Is there any reason that she could not have done so?)
It certainly sounds like the same general scenario, anyway. But that
doesn't make your comment about her only "being optimistic" untrue.
Steuard Jensen
Ancalagon The Black
the Children of Illuvatar will join together and help to re-create Arda as
it should have been, without all the evils and hurts created by Melkor and
his servants.
Turin Turambar will join with Eonwe in the Dagor Daedaleth (The Last Battle)
and will slay Melkor with Anglachel. This says to me that:
a) Ainur and Men will meet at the End, so presumably the Eldar will be there
as well.
b) There is an immortal soul bound to Anglachel, the sword that was
supposedly sentient. Perhaps this soul is part of the soul of Eol the Dark
Elf. Would Anguirel be as "soulful"?
Here's something to consider: if Elves and Men are the Children of
Illuvatar, and Orcs are Elves that were ruined and twisted (but NOT
created) by Melkor, are Orcs considered to be Children of Illuvatar as
well?
If so, are they drawn to the Halls of Mandos when they die? Will they leave
only when Feanor leaves? Although really Orcs cannot be blamed for what
they do, it's their nature.
Ancalagon
--
Bolwerk
> Here's something to consider: if Elves and Men are the Children of
> Illuvatar, and Orcs are Elves that were ruined and twisted (but NOT
> created) by Melkor, are Orcs considered to be Children of Illuvatar as
> well?
>
> If so, are they drawn to the Halls of Mandos when they die? Will they leave
> only when Feanor leaves? Although really Orcs cannot be blamed for what
> they do, it's their nature.
My understanding is that not all Orcs are corrupted Elves. Reading one of
the LoTR FAQs, I think I saw there was textual support that some are
Elves, some men, some perhaps beasts that Melkor gave a piece of his will
to, and some of the earliest may even have been low-level Maia.
I do recall something about how Uruk-Hai were Orks cross-mingled with men,
so I presume the Uruk-Hai share in the gift of men. Maybe others do as
well?
I haven't read anything of Tolkien's other than the Hobbit, LoTR, and the
Silmarillion though (that's a lot for some of us;-]). So I speak with
great uncertainty.
TT Arvind
> So, ok, maybe one exception. :) But with a particularly good reason!
And the possibility of a second, viz. Tuor.
--
Meneldil
One way to stop a runaway horse is to bet on him.
Stan Brown
>Quoth Bolwerk <n...@no.org> in article
><pan.2004.01.20....@no.org>:
>> It's clear to me that only in rare incidences did Men escape their
>> "gift" granted them by Illuvatar. I can only count two such
>> incidences...
>
>I can't count any. :)
>
>
>One might also draw a hopeful conclusion like this from the statement
>in the Ainulindale that the Second Music was prophecied(?) to involve
>both the Ainur and the "Children of Iluvatar", not the Ainur and the
>spirits of Men.
Wasn't Turin mentioned specifically in a prophecy about the Last
Battle?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
Ancalagon The Black
I do not think that Orcs are mortal, except maybe the ones that were
cross-bred by Saruman. During the Chase of the Three Kindreds, Aragorn
made a point of saying that "Orcs do not tire". Near the end of the chase,
when they met Eomer, only Legolas was still moving as quickly as when they
started.
Also, when Sam was listening to Shagrat and Gorbag, after the Orcs had found
Frodo and were hastening back to the Tower, Shagrat and Gorbag were talking
about setting upon on their own once the War was won, "like in the good old
days". Those "good old days" would have to be at least 100 years before
hand, and were probably several times that. To my mind Orcs, or at least
"pure-bred" Orcs, are immortal.
Ancalagon
--
Steuard Jensen
<MPG.1a79b4f17...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>:
> žus cwęš Steuard Jensen:
> > So, ok, maybe one exception. :) But with a particularly good reason!
> And the possibility of a second, viz. Tuor.
Oh, right. Oops! :) I still don't like the Tuor-becoming-an-Elf
story, and if it's "true" then there must be a lot about it that we
never hear about (a great debate by the Valar, I would think!). I
used to dismiss it as an unjustified "pretty legend", especially
considering the comments (as I recall) about nobody ever seeing Tuor
again. But eventually, in an unrelated thread, Conrad quoted Letter
#153:
[From Conrad's May 2000 post, with Message-ID:
<hooP4.43021$fV.26...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:]
> "Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the
> Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at
> all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind
> could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of
> Luthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a
> direct act of God."
As he pointed out, this "(and Tuor)" makes Tolkien's intent clear (at
least at the time that he wrote the letter). Disappointing, that. :)
Steuard Jensen
Chocoholic
"Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a79af98b...@news.odyssey.net...
> It seems "Steuard Jensen" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> >Quoth Bolwerk <n...@no.org> in article
> ><pan.2004.01.20....@no.org>:
> >> It's clear to me that only in rare incidences did Men escape their
> >> "gift" granted them by Illuvatar. I can only count two such
> >> incidences...
> >
> >I can't count any. :)
> >
> [snip]
> >
> >One might also draw a hopeful conclusion like this from the statement
> >in the Ainulindale that the Second Music was prophecied(?) to involve
> >both the Ainur and the "Children of Iluvatar", not the Ainur and the
> >spirits of Men.
>
> Wasn't Turin mentioned specifically in a prophecy about the Last
> Battle?
>
Not in the published Silmarillion. Only in the HoME series do we see that in
some revisions Turin was imagined as being allowed to hang around and get
'revenge' on Morgoth in the Last Battle.
AC
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 20:29:37 -0500,
Chocoholic <Choco...@Cocoa.org> wrote:
>
> "Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1a79af98b...@news.odyssey.net...
>>
>> Battle?
>>
>
> Not in the published Silmarillion. Only in the HoME series do we see that in
> some revisions Turin was imagined as being allowed to hang around and get
> 'revenge' on Morgoth in the Last Battle.
Actually, not in some, but it seems from almost the beginning to the end of
the evolution of the Silmarillion. Even CT notes in one of the later
versions that this idea was resilient.
--
Aaron Clausen
tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
Conrad B Dunkerson
news:pan.2004.01.21....@no.org...
> Galadriel: "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the
> wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may
> meet in the Spring. Farewell!"
> I'm not sure what the means, but it sounds like a post-Ragnarok
> paradise (the renewed world after the final battle of good and evil in
> Norse mythology).
Dagor Dagorath in Tolkien's mythology... same concept.
The text above references back to Treebeard's song;
"In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring.
...
And now all those lands lie under the wave,"
TT, Treebeard
Tasarinan (Valley of the Willows) was a forest in Beleriand where the
Narog and Sirion rivers met. That whole region fell under the ocean at
the end of the First Age. When Galadriel says that they will not meet in
Middle-earth I take that to mean that they might meet again in Valinor -
though she then describes a meeting in Beleriand, which was always
considered part of Middle-earth. In any case Beleriand being again raised
above the waves is an impossibly distant event if it comes at all - my
guess would be after the Dagor Dagorath. This is supported by;
"Ent: When winter comes, the winter wild that hill and wood shall slay;
When trees shall fall and starless night devour the sunless day;
When wind is in the deadly East, then in the bitter rain
I'll look for thee, and call to thee; I'll come to thee again!
Entwife: When Winter comes, and singing ends; when darkness falls
at last;
When broken is the barren bough, and light and labour past;
I'll look for thee, and wait for thee, until we meet again:
Together we will take the road beneath the bitter rain!
Both: Together we will take the road that leads into the West,
And far away will find a land where both our hearts may rest."
TT, Treebeard (a few pages after the prior passage)
The starless night and sunless day and the death of wood and hill all seem
to point towards a final cataclysmic event. The 'road that leads into the
West' seems likely to be the 'straight path' to Valinor (the 'West').
Tolkien also wrote of this passage;
"But I think in Vol. II pp. 80-81 it is plain that there would be for the
Ents no re-union in 'history' - but Ents and their wives being rational
creatures would find some 'earthly paradise' until the end of this
world..."
Letters #338
> Elrond's sons, I figured, might leave if they chose (I'm not aware of
> Tolkien addressing the issue of what became of them after the War
> of the Ring; did he?).
In the original conception it seemed clear that they would have to either
leave with Elrond or be accounted mortal. However, later Tolkien
indicated that they remained in Middle-Earth and 'delayed their choice'.
Nothing more is indicated.
> I think I have the fates of Men and Elves down pat pretty well. I was
> just
> wondering if there is a small chance that after the end of Arda and the
> world that you mention, which also seems to carry an uncertain doom
> for the Eldar, whether the Elves and Men who dwelled together in Middle
> Earth might know each other again. The fate beyond the end of the world
> seems very uncertain for both Elves and Men.
There are hints about what happens AFTER Dagor Dagorath. Turin was said
to return from death for that event, so the Elves who knew him would get
another chance to say hello. It seems clear that Arda would be cleansed
and made a paradise and that the Elves would dwell there... but not where
humans would fit in.
Tamzin
"Conrad B Dunkerson" <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:iouQb.1618$5U2...@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
.
>
> There are hints about what happens AFTER Dagor Dagorath. Turin was said
> to return from death for that event, so the Elves who knew him would get
> another chance to say hello. It seems clear that Arda would be cleansed
> and made a paradise and that the Elves would dwell there... but not where
> humans would fit in.
After Dagor Dagorath I expect that we humans will be busy transcending the
material plane and becoming more powerful than those earthbound elves could
ever understand. We won't be inclined to pop down to Arda Unmarred when
there are primal forces to manipulate and all infinity to explore.
Right?
Tamzin
cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> material plane and becoming more powerful than those earthbound elves could
humans dont wait for the end
but leave arda shortly after death
(though whether shortly means days or centuries is not given)
> ever understand. We won't be inclined to pop down to Arda Unmarred when
> there are primal forces to manipulate and all infinity to explore.
>
> Right?
according to the junkwaffel papers
after you die your body bloats up
and lizards use you as raft
colin_lyse
>
>"Conrad B Dunkerson" <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:iouQb.1618$5U2...@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
>>
>> There are hints about what happens AFTER Dagor Dagorath. Turin was said
>> to return from death for that event, so the Elves who knew him would get
>> another chance to say hello. It seems clear that Arda would be cleansed
>> and made a paradise and that the Elves would dwell there... but not where
>> humans would fit in.
>
>After Dagor Dagorath I expect that we humans will be busy transcending the
>material plane and becoming more powerful than those earthbound elves could
>ever understand. We won't be inclined to pop down to Arda Unmarred when
>there are primal forces to manipulate and all infinity to explore.
>
>Right?
>
>Tamzin
>
>
I would hardly think that the Elves, the firstborn, the ones the Valar
interacted with so much would have a lesser fate than humans.
Whatever fate humans have can not be greater than what is in store for the
firstborn
Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
> I still don't like the Tuor-becoming-an-Elf
> story, and if it's "true" then there must be a lot about it that we
> never hear about (a great debate by the Valar, I would think!).
It's true that it is sprung on the reader without much
explicit preparation. But as I argued a couple of years ago in
my "strange gifts" essay, it makes sense. In many ways Tuor is
more Elvish than the Elves, being totally devoted to Ulmo,
always obeying his wishes, allowing Ulmo to speak with his
mouth, and yearning to go into the West.
The Elves were intended to join the Valar in Valimar and
essentially live under their command. Given the refusal of the
Moriquendi, the tardiness of the Teleri, the rebellion of the
Noldor and the defiance by Turgon of Ulmo's explicit command to
leave Gondolin, Tuor ends up acting more like an ideal Elf than
many of the Elves we see in _Silm_.
Perhaps if JRRT had finished the tale of Tuor, he would
have worked into it more justification for Tuor's destiny.
--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
Tamzin
"colin_lyse" <coli...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:401693e0$0$19932$45be...@newscene.com...
Of course my post above was somewhat tongue in cheek but what makes you
believe that humans are considered "lesser", especially by Eru? My own
impression, which may well be contradicted in HoME or the letters neither of
which I have to hand, is that humans have a special fate, a "gift" that may
ultimately turn out to be as great as the one given to elves. If this is
not so and if humans are irretrievably "lesser" than the elves then I would
wonder why Eru bothered creating us at all and I would be terminally
depressed were I a human in ME. But, to paraphrase, not even the Wise can
see all ends and I would guess that Eru has held back some important
information from both the Valar and their "teacher's pet" Elves :op
Tamzin
Pradera
Why so? It's humans who inherit the earth, it's humans who are given the
_GIFT_ of death (do not share Ar-Pharazon's folly!), it's humans whose
spirits are not bound to Arda, it's humans whose fates are not fully
known to the Ainur. Eventually, it's humans who are given salvation by
Eru's son's death. Whatever fate humans have, it will most certainly be
greater than whatever the Elves would know. That's kind of the whole
point of these stories, as I read them, at least.
cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> essentially live under their command. Given the refusal of the
oh
NobodyMan
HOLD ON!!!
I was with you right up to the part about Eru's son's death - STOP THE
PRESSES!!
Let's not confuse the issue by molding this mythology into
christianity.
You tell me: Who exacty is Eru's son that was "killed" to save
humans? Don't claim Gandalf, as he was not human and didn't just save
"man's" butt.
Conrad B Dunkerson
news:2vud1010kdcmpm28o...@4ax.com...
> HOLD ON!!!
> I was with you right up to the part about Eru's son's death - STOP THE
> PRESSES!!
> Let's not confuse the issue by molding this mythology into
> christianity.
Too late;
"'They say,' answered Andreth: 'they say that the One will himself enter
into arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the
end.'"
MR, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
Pradera
scribbled loosely:
>> HOLD ON!!!
>> I was with you right up to the part about Eru's son's death - STOP THE
>> PRESSES!!
>
>> Let's not confuse the issue by molding this mythology into
>> christianity.
>
> Too late;
>
> "'They say,' answered Andreth: 'they say that the One will himself
enter
> into arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the
> end.'"
> MR, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
>
Exactly. Thanks for supporting me with your authority :)
Regardless of whoever might think of whatever, Tolkien meant Eru to be
christian God, with all its consequences.
Chocoholic
"Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in
message news:bv6g93$ovfeb$1...@ID-193590.news.uni-berlin.de...
> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Steuard Jensen <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu>
wrote:
> > I still don't like the Tuor-becoming-an-Elf
> > story, and if it's "true" then there must be a lot about it that we
> > never hear about (a great debate by the Valar, I would think!).
>
> It's true that it is sprung on the reader without much
> explicit preparation. But as I argued a couple of years ago in
> my "strange gifts" essay, it makes sense. In many ways Tuor is
> more Elvish than the Elves, being totally devoted to Ulmo,
> always obeying his wishes, allowing Ulmo to speak with his
> mouth, and yearning to go into the West.
>
> The Elves were intended to join the Valar in Valimar and
> essentially live under their command. Given the refusal of the
> Moriquendi, the tardiness of the Teleri, the rebellion of the
> Noldor and the defiance by Turgon of Ulmo's explicit command to
> leave Gondolin, Tuor ends up acting more like an ideal Elf than
> many of the Elves we see in _Silm_.
>
I don't think so. Would the rebellion of the Noldor have been so easy for
Melkor to foment if they were really content living under the supervision of
the Valar? It seems likely that the _Vanyar_ were intended to live with the
Valar. They actually lived on Taniquetil and didn't have any sudden
restlessness when things got rough. The Noldor were already 'out of their
natural place' and so much more amenable to Melkor's meddling. Most of the
Teleri/Lindar never even completed the journey because of their
_attachment_to_Middle-earth_...So how did Melkor manage to wrangle this
'trick' to interfere with their 'proper' destiny? Don't think in black and
white. The Valar made mistakes, too. Summoning the Elves to Valinor was one
of them.
NobodyMan
>On 28 sty 2004, "Conrad B Dunkerson" <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net>
>scribbled loosely:
>
>>> HOLD ON!!!
>>> I was with you right up to the part about Eru's son's death - STOP THE
>>> PRESSES!!
>>
>>> Let's not confuse the issue by molding this mythology into
>>> christianity.
>>
>> Too late;
>>
>> "'They say,' answered Andreth: 'they say that the One will himself
>enter
>> into arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the
>> end.'"
>> MR, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
>>
>
>Exactly. Thanks for supporting me with your authority :)
>Regardless of whoever might think of whatever, Tolkien meant Eru to be
>christian God, with all its consequences.
Whatever. I still want to know who you think was "Eru's Son" who died
for man.
Bolwerk
> Exactly. Thanks for supporting me with your authority :)
> Regardless of whoever might think of whatever, Tolkien meant Eru to be
> christian God, with all its consequences.
At least he wasn't a total prick, like the Old Testament God.
But he does seem to suffer from some Manichean or Zoroastrian traits.
Bolwerk
> Whatever. I still want to know who you think was "Eru's Son" who died
> for man.
I may be wrong (in thinking this true, that is), but I think it's pretty
commonly known that LoTR is supposed to be Tolkien's interpretations of
the pre-Christian world, and is also supposed to include a Christian
ethic. If I'm not mistaken, he said so in one of his letters, if it's not
clear from the text. And my impression from the text is that Tolkien hints
at a paradise in Heaven for men, but doesn't assure it. Being that Tolkien
was a heavy Catholic, the Halls of Mandos may even be seen as being like
purgatory before man's soul goes forth to its fate. Again, not saying it's
true, but I think that's a possible interpretation.
Basically, as far as I know, Eru is the Christian God. LoTR and, of
course, the Silmarillion takes place centuries (millennia?) before Jesus
ever appeared. But if Eru is the Christian God, Jesus would have been his
son. Or, if you're Christian, perhaps I should say His Son(tm).
Anyway, I may be way off. I'm not a theologian. And I'm certainly not a
Tolkien theologian. But I always find it fascinating how Christians seem
to claim Tolkien as their own, even though it is becoming popular among
those of neopagan persuasion.
TT Arvind
> Whatever. I still want to know who you think was "Eru's Son" who died
> for man.
Jesus is Eru's son who died for man. He has not yet been born at the
time the action takes place, but his coming has been foretold in a
prophecy (quoted by comrade Dunkerson).
--
If at first you don't succeed you'll get lots of advice.
The American
"Chocoholic" <Choco...@Cocoa.org> wrote in message
> The Valar made mistakes, too. Summoning the Elves to Valinor was one
> of them.
>
>
But it was the lesser of two evils to the Valar.
Melkor marred Arda but the Elves immortal bodies would be supported in
Valinor.
Not so in ME.
Although Ulmo didn't seem to think it would be a problem and he was usually
right about most things.
T.A.
Bolwerk
> Jesus is Eru's son who died for man. He has not yet been born at the
> time the action takes place, but his coming has been foretold in a
> prophecy (quoted by comrade Dunkerson).
Not disagreeing here, but that prophecy could mean anything. :-D
cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
do you have problem with the author being christian
and injecting some of his religion into the story?
NobodyMan
OK. My problem with the original statement was the implication that
this occured during the LOTR time frame. If Jesus was centuries
(ages?) later, it really has no place in the discussion of LOTR
events.
Bolwerk
greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> do you have problem with the author being christian
> and injecting some of his religion into the story?
Yes, clearly when I said, "that prophecy could mean anything," I was
actually saying: Christians are total pieces of fucking shit and any
Christian theme found in any halfway decent story should be omitted.
Further, if the story isn't halfware decent, a properly functioning
atheist police state should burn all copies of said story so that no
children should ever even have the past 1500-2000 years of western culture
even implied to them in the remotest sense possible.
Usually, when I point out that some truncated quotation could mean
anything, there are certain people lurking about who know that I really
mean to do all I can to free literature from all Christian injection. Most
people, being that they'd never approve, are kept completely
oblivious. Those of us who know that "that could mean anything" means in
our elite group don't say anything, because they're part of the conspiracy
too. But you saw right through me.
Bolwerk
> OK. My problem with the original statement was the implication that
> this occured during the LOTR time frame. If Jesus was centuries (ages?)
> later, it really has no place in the discussion of LOTR events.
No such implication was made, that I can see anyway. Pradera was just
pointing out that it was Men, not Elves, who would receive the gift of
salvation (and whatever else according to your respective denomination, I
guess) from Eru's son. It certainly came much later than the LoTR time
frame, probably the 5th or 6th age at the VERY LEAST, if I'm remembering
Letters correctly.
It has to do with the fact that Elves and Men have different fates after
death. I think you'll get better elaboration on this point if you read the
thread more closely. Pradera's exact point was: "...Eventually, it's
humans who are given salvation by Eru's son's death. Whatever fate humans
have, it will most certainly be greater than whatever the Elves would
know. That's kind of the whole point of these stories, as I read them, at
least."
I'm not sure I agree that that's the whole point of the stories, but the
implication that it is Eru's son who offers salvation to Men at some point
(the year 30-something of the common era, give or take a few, as a matter
of fact) seems impossible to avoid.
Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
> "Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in
> message news:bv6g93$ovfeb$1...@ID-193590.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> essentially live under their command. Given the refusal of the
>> Moriquendi, the tardiness of the Teleri, the rebellion of the
>> Noldor and the defiance by Turgon of Ulmo's explicit command to
>> leave Gondolin, Tuor ends up acting more like an ideal Elf than
>> many of the Elves we see in _Silm_.
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Chocoholic <Choco...@cocoa.org> wrote:
> I don't think so. Would the rebellion of the Noldor have been so easy for
> Melkor to foment if they were really content living under the supervision of
> the Valar?
Melkor had already gotten to the Elves in Middle-earth,
before they went across to Valimar, and had started to spread
lies about the Valar and about the role of Men. As far as I can
tell, all the evil in Middle-earth is intended to flow
ultimately from Melkor/Morgoth.
> It seems likely that the _Vanyar_ were intended to live with the
> Valar. They actually lived on Taniquetil and didn't have any sudden
> restlessness when things got rough. The Noldor were already 'out of their
> natural place' and so much more amenable to Melkor's meddling.
I don't think that the Noldor were more attached to
Middle-earth than the Vanyar were. The thing that distinguished
them from the Vanyar was their love of craft and the works of
their hands, and Melkor was able to use that as leverage to
corrupt them.
> The Valar made mistakes, too. Summoning the Elves to Valinor was one
> of them.
Interesting interpretation, but I don't remember anything
from the text that would support that.
Chocoholic
From the Silmarillion, "Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of
Melkor
Then again the Valar were gathered in council, and they were divided in
debate. For some, and of those Ulmo was the chief, held that the Quendi
should be left free to walk as they would in Middle-earth, and with their
gifts of skill to order all the lands and heal their hurts. But the most
part feared for the Quendi in the dangerous world amid the deceits of the
starlit dusk; and they were filled moreover with the love of the beauty of
the Elves and desired their fellowship. At the last, therefore, the Valar
summoned the Quendi to Valinor, there to be gathered at the knees of the
Powers in the light of the Trees for ever; and Mandos broke his silence,
saying: 'So it is doomed.' From this summons came many woes that afterwards
befell.
Sounds a bit ominous, doesn't it? Like maybe this was not a good idea?
Christopher Kreuzer
> At the last, therefore, the Valar summoned the Quendi to Valinor,
> there to be gathered at the knees of the Powers in the light of the
> Trees for ever; and Mandos broke his silence, saying: 'So it is
> doomed.' From this summons came many woes that afterwards
> befell.
>
> Sounds a bit ominous, doesn't it? Like maybe this was not a good idea?
But, in some sense, a very funny line. Don't you think the other Valar,
obviously unable to retract their decision, wanted to hit Mandos after
the pretentious twat came out with that line. In fact many of Mandos's
lines are like this. :-)
That's given me an idea for a new thread....
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Aurora The Auror
Human beings would have been vulnerable in the dangerous world, even
more so that the Quendi. Why didn't the humans get an invitation to
Valimar? Weren't they pretty enough?
Humans do seem to have been neglected by the Valar. The only time in
the books I recall a member of the Valar speaking directly to a human
was Ulmo, and he was only treating Tuor as a messenger boy, 'Go tell
this to the elves'.
>At the last, therefore, the Valar
> summoned the Quendi to Valinor, there to be gathered at the knees of the
> Powers in the light of the Trees for ever; and Mandos broke his silence,
> saying: 'So it is doomed.' From this summons came many woes that afterwards
> befell.
>
> Sounds a bit ominous, doesn't it? Like maybe this was not a good idea?
Maybe Mandos could tell that the humans would be jealous of the elves'
new home in the future?
Aurora
Mairiel
"Aurora The Auror" <Aurora_T...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4dc2736b.04020...@posting.google.com...
I read it as referring more to the corruption allowed to grow free in the ME
once the attention of the Valar no longer dwelt there since most elves were
moved to Aman.
A big WHAT-If to consider would be the fate of the world had the Valar
stayed actively involved in Middle Earth throughout the Time of the Trees
and into the First Age.