Names of the Nazgul??
kain
Ps> In <2k17oa$m...@ionews.io.org> ka...@ionews.io.org (kain) writes:
Ka> This may be a stupid post, guaranteed to get me flamed, but I was wondering
Well, I guess I was right.
Ps> Khamul the Shadow of the East is the only one mentioned by JRRT.
I have heard Khamul's name mentioned, but for the lives of me, I've
searched the Silmarillion, the Hobbit, and LotR, and can't find reference
to Khamul anywhere!
Ps> Murazor? Eeuuww! Yuk! The Black Language doesn't even the letter "o".
Where did you get your information on the Black Language? I'd like to find
out more about it than what's in Ruth S. Noel's Languages of Tolkien's
Middle Earth. But Murazor (Witch King), you don't like? Then how about
Dendra Dwar (Dog Lord), Ji Indur (Cloud Lord), Akhorahil (Blind Sorcerer),
Hoarmurath (Ice King), Adunaphel (Quiet Avenger), Ren (Hoek?) (Fire King),
and Uvatha (Long Rider)? (Nee!)
Ps> Actually, I've always imagined that the two Black Numenorean lords
Ps> mentioned somewhere, Herumor and Fuinur (Sindarin, not Black language,
Ps> meaning Lord of the Dark and Friend of Gloom, heru+mor, fuin+n(d)ur),
Ps> became two of the Nazgul. Any objections? Theories?
Looking at my Middle Earth PBM character list (now there's a really
reliable source for you) Fuinur and Herumor are under the control of
Adunaphel.
Are there any REAL sources out there? And sorry, I do NOT have 10x$43 to
buy the HoME series. I'm waiting for the paperback versions (trade or
otherwise) to come out.
... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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Andrew Solovay
kain <ka...@ionews.io.org> writes:
> -=> P...@cs.hut.fi's dying breath was wasted to All on: <=-
> Ps> In <2k17oa$m...@ionews.io.org> ka...@ionews.io.org (kain) writes:
>
> Ps> Khamul the Shadow of the East is the only one mentioned by JRRT.
>
>I have heard Khamul's name mentioned, but for the lives of me, I've
>searched the Silmarillion, the Hobbit, and LotR, and can't find reference
>to Khamul anywhere!
It's in "Unfinished Tales", which is available in paperback for ~$5.
Khamul was Sauron's lieutenant in Dol Guldur.
> Ps> Murazor? Eeuuww! Yuk! The Black Language doesn't even the letter "o".
>Where did you get your information on the Black Language? I'd like to find
>out more about it than what's in Ruth S. Noel's Languages of Tolkien's
>Middle Earth. But Murazor (Witch King), you don't like? Then how about
>Dendra Dwar (Dog Lord), Ji Indur (Cloud Lord), Akhorahil (Blind Sorcerer),
>Hoarmurath (Ice King), Adunaphel (Quiet Avenger), Ren (Hoek?) (Fire King),
>and Uvatha (Long Rider)? (Nee!)
Well, none of those have anything to do with Tolkien, if that's what
you're asking. In LOTR, all of the Nazgul (and most of the enemies in
general) are nameless.
--
Andrew Solovay
"Cottleston, cottleston, cottleston pie."
-- Pooh
Jon
Andrew Solovay <sol...@netcom.com> wrote:
> In LOTR, all of the Nazgul (and most of the enemies in
>general) are nameless.
So, (please bear with me for asking what I'm sure is an ancient question),
what's the consensus on Gothmog (the one in Minas Morgul, not the Balrog)?
-Jon
ps: I'm sure that's a FAQ, but when I asked where to find a copy of the
a.f.t FAQ I received no responses...
--
j...@alumni.caltech.edu Jon Hartzberg
Petteri Sulonen
>So, (please bear with me for asking what I'm sure is an ancient question),
>what's the consensus on Gothmog (the one in Minas Morgul, not the Balrog)?
I take it Gothmog was not a "supernatural being" along the lines of the
Nazgul or Balrogs, but 'merely' a human captain serving under Sauron.
There _were_ plenty...
-- Petteri
Andrew Solovay
Jon <j...@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
>In article <solovayC...@netcom.com>,
>Andrew Solovay <sol...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> In LOTR, all of the Nazgul (and most of the enemies in
>>general) are nameless.
>
>So, (please bear with me for asking what I'm sure is an ancient question),
>what's the consensus on Gothmog (the one in Minas Morgul, not the Balrog)?
Consensus? Hah. There *is* no consensus. (Maybe the lack-of-consensus
oughta be in the FAQ.)
I've always *assumed* that Gothmog (the "Lieutenant of Minas Morgul")
was a Ringwraith, because Minas Morgul always seemed to be strongly
associated with the Nazgul. But there's really nothing in the text to
back this up. He could easily have been a living man, like the Mouth
of Sauron.
Jon
Andrew Solovay <sol...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <2kdo79$c...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
> Jon <j...@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
>>In article <solovayC...@netcom.com>,
>>Andrew Solovay <sol...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>So, (please bear with me for asking what I'm sure is an ancient question),
>>what's the consensus on Gothmog (the one in Minas Morgul, not the Balrog)?
>
>Consensus? Hah. There *is* no consensus. (Maybe the lack-of-consensus
>oughta be in the FAQ.)
>
>I've always *assumed* that Gothmog (the "Lieutenant of Minas Morgul")
>was a Ringwraith, because Minas Morgul always seemed to be strongly
>associated with the Nazgul.
Yeah, me too. My reasoning was this: The Ulairi took Minas Ithil to be
their own city; it is known that they abode there, when not traipsing about
the shire as Black Riders; the "Lieutenant of Morgul" sure *sounds* like the
boss man to me (assuming it's _Sauron's_ lieutenant), and it's difficult for
me to picture a mortal giving orders to a Ringwraith. On the other hand, the
captain of the Ringwraiths was the witch-king, who I believe had already
perished at the time of the reference to Gothmog. Additionally, the
Lieutenant of Morgul might have reported to the wraiths, rather than directly
to Sauron. I'd always assumed he was Sauron's lieutenant, but as you say:
> But there's really nothing in the text to
>back this up. He could easily have been a living man, like the Mouth
>of Sauron.
-Jon
--
j...@alumni.caltech.edu Jon Hartzberg
R. Dan Henry
>From: sol...@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
>Subject: Re: Names of the Nazgul??
>Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 18:24:15 GMT
>I've always *assumed* that Gothmog (the "Lieutenant of Minas Morgul")
>was a Ringwraith, because Minas Morgul always seemed to be strongly
>associated with the Nazgul. But there's really nothing in the text to
>back this up. He could easily have been a living man, like the Mouth
>of Sauron.
Is there any evidence that he wasn't a particularly successful troll or orc?
Since Gothmog is pretty high rank, he'd be Olog-hai or Uruk-hai, not the
lesser breed.
* R. Dan Henry, Dept. of Philosophy, UC Riverside *
* rdh...@ucrac1.ucr.edu *
* To learn is to sorrow and to know great joy. *
Robert Hill
I've always assumed the same, but surely the problem is that if he was a
Ringwraith then he ought to be "the second to the chief" in which case
he's Khamul.
An interesting sideline is that Nazgul is probably the only word in LotR
that we meet in Black Speech but not in Sindarin. The Sindarin (Ulairi) is only
in the Akallabeth and "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age".
Robert Hill
"Though all my wares be trash, my heart is true."
- John Dowland, Fine Knacks for Ladies (1600)
Andrew McMurry
Yeah, me too. My reasoning was this: The Ulairi took Minas Ithil to be
their own city; it is known that they abode there, when not traipsing about
the shire as Black Riders; the "Lieutenant of Morgul" sure *sounds* like the
boss man to me (assuming it's _Sauron's_ lieutenant), and it's difficult for
me to picture a mortal giving orders to a Ringwraith. On the other hand, the
captain of the Ringwraiths was the witch-king, who I believe had already
perished at the time of the reference to Gothmog. Additionally, the
Lieutenant of Morgul might have reported to the wraiths, rather than directly
to Sauron. I'd always assumed he was Sauron's lieutenant, but as you say:
> But there's really nothing in the text to
>back this up. He could easily have been a living man, like the Mouth
>of Sauron.
The Mouth of Sauron was lieutenant of Barad Dur, although Sauron was
the 'boss man' in Barad Dur. Presumably this meant that MofS looked
after the day to day running of BD, something that Sauron would not
want to bother with himself. The lieutenant of Minas Morgul would
presumably have a similar position in MM. He could be under the direct
command of Sauron or the under the command of the Nazgul. I am sure
he would obey any of the Nazgul either way, rather than the other way
round.
Andrew
Petteri Sulonen
>An interesting sideline is that Nazgul is probably the only word in LotR
>that we meet in Black Speech but not in Sindarin. The Sindarin (Ulairi) is only
>in the Akallabeth and "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age".
How about "Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatuluk, agh
burzum-ishi krimpatul?"
-- Petteri
Gothmog
>>was a Ringwraith, because Minas Morgul always seemed to be strongly
>>associated with the Nazgul. But there's really nothing in the text to
>>back this up. He could easily have been a living man, like the Mouth
>>of Sauron.
>
>Is there any evidence that he wasn't a particularly successful troll or orc?
>Since Gothmog is pretty high rank, he'd be Olog-hai or Uruk-hai, not the
>lesser breed.
As has been stated, there really isn't a whole lot written about Gothmog, so
it is POSSIBLE it was an orc or troll. I find this hard to believe though.
Those races were not known for their intelligence, and it seems unlikely that
Sauron would put such a creature in such a command position (lieutenant of
Minas Morgul and commander of Sauron's army after the fall of the Lord of
the Nazgul). I personally think he was probably a Nazgul, but again, there
is no text to back this up.
-Gothmog (Lord of Balrogs)
Jon
Robert Hill <ec...@sun.leeds.ac.uk> wrote:
>Incidentally, do any of the books tell us the Sindarin (or Quenya) for
>"ring"? Presumably it's present as an element in "Ulairi".
^^^^
The word is 'Ya' e.g. Narya == "Fire Ring", Nenya == "Water Ring",
Vilya == "Air Ring", Calacirya == "Shining Encircling Ring" etc.
I am not sure that "Ulairi" translates directly to "Ringwraiths"; I think
it may be a generic term for wraiths (== "Shadows of Darkness" or similar ?).
Robert Hill
Sorry, yes, of course, I said this wrong.
What I meant to say is this: among the people, animals, monsters, places and
objects that are of significance to the plot of LotR, and are mentioned in
a number of places in the book, and spoken of by a number of people
of different backgrounds and by the narrator, the Nazgul are unusual and,
I think, unique, in that they are often referred to by their name in the
Black Speech, but we never see their name in Sindarin.
Incidentally, do any of the books tell us the Sindarin (or Quenya) for
"ring"? Presumably it's present as an element in "Ulairi".
Karl Paul Mueller
I always thought that this was one of the coolest sounding
lines in LoTR. (if I got my pronunciation right).. Sorry to bring
back the movie theme, but I can't see Sean Connery saying this :-)
I think I'll digitize this and make it my system beep or something..
>-- Petteri
Karl Mueller
ka...@shell.portal.com
David Smith
: the shire as Black Riders; the "Lieutenant of Morgul" sure *sounds* like the
: boss man to me (assuming it's _Sauron's_ lieutenant), and it's difficult for
: me to picture a mortal giving orders to a Ringwraith. On the other hand, the
: captain of the Ringwraiths was the witch-king, who I believe had already
: perished at the time of the reference to Gothmog. Additionally, the
: Lieutenant of Morgul might have reported to the wraiths, rather than directly
: to Sauron. I'd always assumed he was Sauron's lieutenant, but as you say:
The witch-king of Angmar (who was the captain of the ringwraiths) did not
perish until the battle of the Pelennor Fields, when he was killed by Eowyn.
Don't you remember what Glorfindel prophesied to the Witch-king? He told
him that he would not die by the hand of a man. Hence the statement the
Lord of the Nazgul made to Eowyn before he was slain.
--David
===============================================================
David Smith Student Advisor/Mathematics Temple University
dsm...@astro.ocis.temple.edu CIS07...@WS02.CIS.TEMPLE.EDU
===============================================================
GERNOT_KATZER
> -- Petteri
There are several names (mainly of Orcs) that derive either from the
Black Speech or some related one and we do not have any translation for them.
We don't even know what "Ugluuk u bagronk sha pushdung Saruman-glob
buubhosh skai" means, except that it is not friendly to Saruman.
--
| Gernot Katzer
How does a system manager change a light bulb? | kat...@bkfug.kfunigraz.ac.at
| kat...@balu.kfunigraz.ac.at
He doesn't. He just denies access to everyone to |
the area served by the light bulb in question. | NEVER make me sysmgr!
|
Ffej
When the MoFS read the terms of the surrender that Sauron
would except, he mentioned that a luetinent(sp) would control
the western lands with the center of control at Orthanc.
Aragorn was musing to someone that it was probably going to be
the MoFS that would be that Luetinent(sp). So, perhaps MoFS
was a little higher up than just the chamberlan of Barad-dur.
*wasnt Gothmog in Sil and not in LOTR? If so how then could he
be the Luet. Of minas morgul???
Jeff @ UCD
"And I, I took the road less traveled by. And that has made
all the difference."
-Robert Frost
Petteri Sulonen
>When the MoFS read the terms of the surrender that Sauron
>would except, he mentioned that a luetinent(sp) would control
>the western lands with the center of control at Orthanc.
>Aragorn was musing to someone that it was probably going to be
>the MoFS that would be that Luetinent(sp). So, perhaps MoFS
>was a little higher up than just the chamberlan of Barad-dur.
>*wasnt Gothmog in Sil and not in LOTR? If so how then could he
>be the Luet. Of minas morgul???
Your confusing two Gothmogs. The one in the Silm. was the Lord of the Balrogs,
and was slain in the Battle of Gondolin by the elf Ecthelion of the Fountain
(not to be confused with Ecthelion the Steward of Gondor). The one in the
LotR is simply 'the lieutenant of Morgul'. Likewise, Grond the battering-ram
is merely named after Melkor's mace. There are plenty of duplicate names.
Beren is used several times, as is Thorin and Durin, to name a few.
-- Petteri
Klaus Ole Kristiansen
>So, (please bear with me for asking what I'm sure is an ancient question),
>what's the consensus on Gothmog (the one in Minas Morgul, not the Balrog)?
There is none.
Klaus O K
Klaus Ole Kristiansen
>> I've always *assumed* that Gothmog (the "Lieutenant of Minas Morgul")
>> was a Ringwraith, because Minas Morgul always seemed to be strongly
>> associated with the Nazgul. But there's really nothing in the text to
>> back this up. He could easily have been a living man, like the Mouth
>> of Sauron.
>I've always assumed the same, but surely the problem is that if he was a
>Ringwraith then he ought to be "the second to the chief" in which case
>he's Khamul.
Wasn't Khamul in chatge of Dol Guldur at the time?
Klaus O K