Gandalf's death (please explain)
Doug Elrod
> After reading the Silmarillion, I formed the opinion that when Gandalf
> 'died', he most likely returned to Valinor, and perhaps the Halls of Mandos.
[clip]
> halfway thru 'the white rider' in TT:
> 'Then darkness tookme, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I
> wandered far on roads that I will not tell'
In the letters, Tolkien says that since all of Arda is subject to time
(and even the Valar will eventually tire of their existence), that
Gandalf must have left Arda and been given new power by some
Authority (which could only be Eru). So this is another case of
direct intervention (another being the downfall of Numenor).
-Doug Elrod (dr...@cornell.edu)
Michael Schmeing
>I'm very confused.
>What exactly happens from the moment Gandalf the Gray plummets into the abyss
>with the Balrog, to the point when he returns as Gandalf the White. Did he
>die? Has he been resurrected? What is the distinction between Gray and White?
>What capabilities does he have as the white that he didn't have as the gray?
>Just explain everything. Thanks!
>very confused...
Well, Gandalf really died there. As an Istari he was bound to Middle Earth
and the fact of death: remember that in The Battle of five Armies he broke
his arm.
He was in the beginning the Grey for it does not shine so bright as white
and Saruman was the most famous of the Istari. But after Gandalfs death and
the treason of Saruman Gandalf became the most important man on the side
of the "good" ones.
Further on he was no longer bound to Middle Earth: He could not be killed.
When he returned he came with his full power as Maia of Valinor of which
he gave up a lot when comming to ME the first time.
Ted G. Dumitrescu
>
>Well, Gandalf really died there. As an Istari he was bound to Middle Earth
>and the fact of death: remember that in The Battle of five Armies he broke
>his arm.
>He was in the beginning the Grey for it does not shine so bright as white
>and Saruman was the most famous of the Istari. But after Gandalfs death and
>the treason of Saruman Gandalf became the most important man on the side
>of the "good" ones.
>Further on he was no longer bound to Middle Earth: He could not be killed.
>When he returned he came with his full power as Maia of Valinor of which
>he gave up a lot when comming to ME the first time.
>
>Michael
>Michael....@Arbi.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE
Well, if it is the case that he really died there, I want to know some things
(I've never read any official commentary on this point). Gandalf speaks of
having tumbled to the bottom of the abyss with the balrog, and through deep
waters at the bottom, and to have followed the Balrog to the Endless Stair, all
the way up to the top of the mountain (Silvertine?). Now he fought the Balrog
up there, and he defeated him, but then why did he die afterward ("Then
darkness took me...")? I mean, what caused him to die up there on the peak?
Ted.
William K. Mitchell
>
> In the letters, Tolkien says that since all of Arda is subject to time
> (and even the Valar will eventually tire of their existence), that
> Gandalf must have left Arda and been given new power by some
> Authority (which could only be Eru). So this is another case of
> direct intervention (another being the downfall of Numenor).
I disagree with this. How and when could Gandalf, or any of the Valar for
that matter, leave Arda? Gandalf was killed bodily. So what? He wouldn't
be the first Maia to have that happen and come back later. Sauron did it
by himself, with no help.
Also, I whole-heartedly disagree when you say Eru intervened. Only once do
we see this kind of intervention (the Akallabeth), and Manwe had to
personally beg him to do it. I don't see why the Valar couldn't send the
spirit Olorin back to Middle Earth on their own. They would have no need
to ask for intervention.
- Bill
--------------------------------------------------------------------
: ***** William K. Mitchell ***** : :
: wkmi...@csl.mtu.edu : "Only Psychos shall rule :
: wkmi...@fsh.mtu.edu : the Earth." :
: wkmi...@mtu.edu : :
--------------------------------------------------------------------
akin...@utdallas.edu
> Doug Elrod (dr...@cornell.edu) wrote:
> >
> > In the letters, Tolkien says that since all of Arda is subject to time
> > (and even the Valar will eventually tire of their existence), that
> > Gandalf must have left Arda and been given new power by some
> > Authority (which could only be Eru). So this is another case of
> > direct intervention (another being the downfall of Numenor).
> I disagree with this. How and when could Gandalf, or any of the Valar for
> that matter, leave Arda? Gandalf was killed bodily. So what? He wouldn't
> be the first Maia to have that happen and come back later. Sauron did it
> by himself, with no help.
Actually, Gandalf and Sauron were the _only_ ones to have been "killed".
the difference was that it took Sauron decades or centuries, and it took
Gandalf a much shorter amount of time <1 year or less>. When you "kill"
them, only thier physical ties to Arda are destroyed, not their true
selves. They can then create another manifestation and re-enter Arda.
The Authority was, most likely, Manwe, as Eru would not have intervened.
--
Steven Akins Historical Studies Undergraduate University of Texas at Dallas
GCS$/H d--- H+ s++:--- g+ p4+ au a19 w++ v+(--*) C++>+ U P? L N++ K !W--
M+ -po+ Y+ t++ 5+ J++ R+ G+'' tv b+++ D+++ B--- e+ u** h- f+ r(-) n+ !y+
Secretary To Role Players' Guild at University of Texas at Dallas.
Doug Elrod
> I disagree with this. How and when could Gandalf, or any of the Valar for
> that matter, leave Arda? Gandalf was killed bodily. So what? He wouldn't
> be the first Maia to have that happen and come back later. Sauron did it
> by himself, with no help.
>
> we see this kind of intervention (the Akallabeth), and Manwe had to
> personally beg him to do it. I don't see why the Valar couldn't send the
> spirit Olorin back to Middle Earth on their own. They would have no need
> to ask for intervention.
around to Tolkien's solution eventually (for reasons of consistency, etc.).
Here is what he says in Letter #155, (The Letters of JRR Tolkien, edited
by Humphrey Carpenter, p. 203 in the hardback edition):
[start of quote]
...In the end before he departs for ever he sums himself up: 'I was the
enemy of Sauron'. He might have added: 'for that purpose I was sent to
Middle-earth'. But by that he would at the end have meant more than at
the beginning. He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar
or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the
moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until
my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods'
whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he
passed 'out of thought and time'....
[end of quote]
I also believe that the Istari were differently embodied than other
Ainu. Others wore their bodies like clothes (although the more they
worked with them, the more disabled they were when they were
destroyed). The Istari's bodies were more "real" so that they
were subject to the cares and hungers of Middle-earth, just as
any Man. I don't have the reference for this handy, but if one believes
it, it is another support for the difficulty of a dead Gandalf the
Grey becoming a live Gandalf the White in the relatively short time
this happened.
-Doug Elrod (dr...@cornell.edu)
Paul R Thompson
I'm not sure, being in a laboratory without the books to hand, but I suspect that
although he finished the Balrog off, he was mortally wounded (he does go on to
Strider and Gimli and Legolas about flame being about him, &c). Fighting Balrogs
can't be a very pleasant experience, not even for the Istari.
Also, can people just read the books (especially "Of the Rings of Power and the
Third Age" at the back of "The Silmarillion") and stop posting in about who made
the bloody rings???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nutter
Jan Ingvoldstad
In article <38r97p$e...@percy.cs.bham.ac.uk>, P.R.Thomp...@cs.bham.ac.uk (Paul R Thompson) writes:
[snip]
> Also, can people just read the books (especially "Of the Rings of Power and the
> Third Age" at the back of "The Silmarillion") and stop posting in about who made
> the bloody rings???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In my experience from reading and posting here for about a year or so, the
answer to you question must be "no" ;)
Many of the questions asked have their answer in the FAQ (Frequently Asked
Questions), but people who are "new" to the group don't even know of its
existance. Perhaps the FAQ should be posted a little more often?
J<>I
Jay Herlihy
>(I've never read any official commentary on this point). Gandalf speaks of
>having tumbled to the bottom of the abyss with the balrog, and through deep
>waters at the bottom, and to have followed the Balrog to the Endless Stair, all
>the way up to the top of the mountain (Silvertine?). Now he fought the Balrog
>up there, and he defeated him, but then why did he die afterward ("Then
>darkness took me...")? I mean, what caused him to die up there on the peak?
>
I took it to mean that he died because of the strain and
exertion of the battle. Take into consideration that they are both
Maia, and can hurl some pretty powerful forces at each other. But
prolonged use of such power tends to drain the user, I would imagine.
--
From the often twisted & deviant mind of: j_he...@oz.plymouth.edu
-Axl @)-->--- http://oz.plymouth.edu/~j_herlih/ j...@wiz.plymouth.edu
"In Christianity neither morality nor a...@csos.orst.edu
religion comes into contact with reality at any point." - Nietzsche
Juan A. Varela
wrote:
:) In article <38r97p$e...@percy.cs.bham.ac.uk>,
P.R.Thomp...@cs.bham.ac.uk (Paul R Thompson) writes:
:)
:) [snip]
:)
:) > Also, can people just read the books (especially "Of the Rings of
Power and the
:) > Third Age" at the back of "The Silmarillion") and stop posting in
about who made
:) > the bloody rings???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:)
:)
:) In my experience from reading and posting here for about a year or so, the
:) answer to you question must be "no" ;)
:)
:)
:) Many of the questions asked have their answer in the FAQ (Frequently Asked
:) Questions), but people who are "new" to the group don't even know of its
:) existance. Perhaps the FAQ should be posted a little more often?
:)
:)
:) J<>I
I agree. I didn't know about the FAQ
--
Juan A. Varela