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Spurious quote, or authentic?
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Steve Morrison
Jan 27, 2012, 8:03:21 PM1/27/12
to
I've recently kept coming across a purported quote from Tolkien,
and I'm not sure whether it's authentic (though I suspect it
isn't). The quote is this:
We were all orcs in the Great War.
I can't find any source for it (I'm sure it isn't anywhere in
/Letters/). But I can't think of any way to prove Tolkien didn't
say it, either. The closest I can come is to note that it
conflicts with what he wrote to Christopher in Letter 71:
Yes, I think the orcs as real a creation as anything in
'realistic' fiction: your vigorous words well describe the
tribe; only in real life they are on both sides, of course.
For 'romance' has grown out of 'allegory', and its wars are
still derived from the 'inner war' of allegory in which good
is on one side and various modes of badness on the other. In
real (exterior) life men are on both sides: which means a
motley alliance of orcs, beasts, demons, plain naturally
honest men, and angels. But it does make some difference who
are your captains and whether they are orc-like per se!
In fact, I suspect the quote is some distorted version of this
passage. But Tolkien did say contradictory things in his letters,
so this isn't conclusive. My other reason for skepticism is that
I've only started coming across this quotation in recent years; if
it came from any authenticated source, it would almost have to be
a recently published one, and what would that be?
So does anyone know anything that I don't?
and I'm not sure whether it's authentic (though I suspect it
isn't). The quote is this:
We were all orcs in the Great War.
I can't find any source for it (I'm sure it isn't anywhere in
/Letters/). But I can't think of any way to prove Tolkien didn't
say it, either. The closest I can come is to note that it
conflicts with what he wrote to Christopher in Letter 71:
Yes, I think the orcs as real a creation as anything in
'realistic' fiction: your vigorous words well describe the
tribe; only in real life they are on both sides, of course.
For 'romance' has grown out of 'allegory', and its wars are
still derived from the 'inner war' of allegory in which good
is on one side and various modes of badness on the other. In
real (exterior) life men are on both sides: which means a
motley alliance of orcs, beasts, demons, plain naturally
honest men, and angels. But it does make some difference who
are your captains and whether they are orc-like per se!
In fact, I suspect the quote is some distorted version of this
passage. But Tolkien did say contradictory things in his letters,
so this isn't conclusive. My other reason for skepticism is that
I've only started coming across this quotation in recent years; if
it came from any authenticated source, it would almost have to be
a recently published one, and what would that be?
So does anyone know anything that I don't?
Stan Brown
Jan 28, 2012, 12:42:01 AM1/28/12
to
On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:03:21 -0500, Steve Morrison wrote:
>
> I've recently kept coming across a purported quote from Tolkien,
> and I'm not sure whether it's authentic (though I suspect it
> isn't). The quote is this:
>
> We were all orcs in the Great War.
>
> I can't find any source for it (I'm sure it isn't anywhere in
> /Letters/). But I can't think of any way to prove Tolkien didn't
> say it, either.
I agree with you. It doesn't sound like something Tolkien would say,
>
> I've recently kept coming across a purported quote from Tolkien,
> and I'm not sure whether it's authentic (though I suspect it
> isn't). The quote is this:
>
> We were all orcs in the Great War.
>
> I can't find any source for it (I'm sure it isn't anywhere in
> /Letters/). But I can't think of any way to prove Tolkien didn't
> say it, either.
and it *does* contradict in spirit other things he has said. It
*does* sound like the way some nameless subeditor would "punch up" a
quote from an interview with Tolkien.
But there's no way to prove Tolkien didn't say or write it. You
could, I suppose, challenge the person making the quote to provide a
cite.
> The closest I can come is to note that it
> conflicts with what he wrote to Christopher in Letter 71:
>
> Yes, I think the orcs as real a creation as anything in
> 'realistic' fiction: your vigorous words well describe the
> tribe; only in real life they are on both sides, of course.
> For 'romance' has grown out of 'allegory', and its wars are
> still derived from the 'inner war' of allegory in which good
> is on one side and various modes of badness on the other. In
> real (exterior) life men are on both sides: which means a
> motley alliance of orcs, beasts, demons, plain naturally
> honest men, and angels. But it does make some difference who
> are your captains and whether they are orc-like per se!
>
> In fact, I suspect the quote is some distorted version of this
> passage. But Tolkien did say contradictory things in his letters,
> so this isn't conclusive. My other reason for skepticism is that
> I've only started coming across this quotation in recent years; if
> it came from any authenticated source, it would almost have to be
> a recently published one, and what would that be?
>
> So does anyone know anything that I don't?
when I had more time on my hands). I searched for "orclike",
"orcish", and "orkish" and came up empty. The only occurrence of
"orc-like" was the one you cited in Letter 71.
I had a dim memory of his criticizing some wartime measures in
Britain as being behaviour one would expect of Orcs; but though there
were many occurrences of "behaviour" none was relevant.
Then I started searching for "orc". Of all that I found, only your
quote from Letter 71 and this one from Letter 66 seemed relevant:
"For we are attempting to conquer Sauron with the Ring. And we shall
(it seems) succeed. But the penalty is, as you will know, to breed
new Saurons, and slowly turn Men and Elves into Orcs. Not that in
real life things are as clear cut as in a story, and we started out
with a great many Orcs on our side. .... Well, there you are: a
hobbit amongst the Urukhai."
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Steve Morrison
Jan 28, 2012, 11:21:17 AM1/28/12
to
Stan Brown wrote:
> I had a dim memory of his criticizing some wartime measures in
> Britain as being behaviour one would expect of Orcs; but though there
> were many occurrences of "behaviour" none was relevant.
>
> Then I started searching for "orc". Of all that I found, only your
> quote from Letter 71 and this one from Letter 66 seemed relevant:
>
> "For we are attempting to conquer Sauron with the Ring. And we shall
> (it seems) succeed. But the penalty is, as you will know, to breed
> new Saurons, and slowly turn Men and Elves into Orcs. Not that in
> real life things are as clear cut as in a story, and we started out
> with a great many Orcs on our side. .... Well, there you are: a
> hobbit amongst the Urukhai."
>
It could be you're remembering this, from Letter 81:
> I had a dim memory of his criticizing some wartime measures in
> Britain as being behaviour one would expect of Orcs; but though there
> were many occurrences of "behaviour" none was relevant.
>
> Then I started searching for "orc". Of all that I found, only your
> quote from Letter 71 and this one from Letter 66 seemed relevant:
>
> "For we are attempting to conquer Sauron with the Ring. And we shall
> (it seems) succeed. But the penalty is, as you will know, to breed
> new Saurons, and slowly turn Men and Elves into Orcs. Not that in
> real life things are as clear cut as in a story, and we started out
> with a great many Orcs on our side. .... Well, there you are: a
> hobbit amongst the Urukhai."
>
There was a solemn article in the local paper seriously
advocating systematic exterminating of the entire German nation
as the only proper course after military victory: because, if
you please, they are rattlesnakes, and don’t know the
difference between good and evil! (What of the writer?) The
Germans have just as much right to declare the Poles and Jews
exterminable vermin, subhuman, as we have to select the
Germans: in other words, no right, whatever they have done.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Stan Brown
Jan 28, 2012, 5:21:47 PM1/28/12
to
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:21:17 -0500, Steve Morrison wrote:
>
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
> > I had a dim memory of his criticizing some wartime measures in
> > Britain as being behaviour one would expect of Orcs; but though there
> > were many occurrences of "behaviour" none was relevant.
> >
> > Then I started searching for "orc". Of all that I found, only your
> > quote from Letter 71 and this one from Letter 66 seemed relevant:
[snippatootie]
>
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
> > I had a dim memory of his criticizing some wartime measures in
> > Britain as being behaviour one would expect of Orcs; but though there
> > were many occurrences of "behaviour" none was relevant.
> >
> > Then I started searching for "orc". Of all that I found, only your
> > quote from Letter 71 and this one from Letter 66 seemed relevant:
>
> It could be you're remembering this, from Letter 81:
>
[snipperooni]
> It could be you're remembering this, from Letter 81:
>
I remember it now that you point it out, but that's not what I was
thinking of.
It had to do with some bureaucratic stupidity in wartime England,
under the Churchill government. But I can't remember details.
A scan for Churchill turns up Letter 53, in which JRRT deplores
Churchill's getting in bed with Stalin. That might be what I was
thinking of. It doesn't say anything remotely like "we are all
orcs", but does deplore the apparent turning of the entire world into
a copy of America.
Paul S. Person
Jan 29, 2012, 1:23:34 PM1/29/12
to
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:21:47 -0500, Stan Brown
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:21:17 -0500, Steve Morrison wrote:
>>
>> Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> > I had a dim memory of his criticizing some wartime measures in
>> > Britain as being behaviour one would expect of Orcs; but though there
>> > were many occurrences of "behaviour" none was relevant.
>> >
>> > Then I started searching for "orc". Of all that I found, only your
>> > quote from Letter 71 and this one from Letter 66 seemed relevant:
>
>[snippatootie]
>>
>> It could be you're remembering this, from Letter 81:
>>
>[snipperooni]
>
>I remember it now that you point it out, but that's not what I was
>thinking of.
>
>It had to do with some bureaucratic stupidity in wartime England,
>under the Churchill government. But I can't remember details.
>
>A scan for Churchill turns up Letter 53, in which JRRT deplores
>Churchill's getting in bed with Stalin. That might be what I was
>thinking of. It doesn't say anything remotely like "we are all
>orcs", but does deplore the apparent turning of the entire world into
>a copy of America.
Which may be much the same thing ...
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:21:17 -0500, Steve Morrison wrote:
>>
>> Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> > I had a dim memory of his criticizing some wartime measures in
>> > Britain as being behaviour one would expect of Orcs; but though there
>> > were many occurrences of "behaviour" none was relevant.
>> >
>> > Then I started searching for "orc". Of all that I found, only your
>> > quote from Letter 71 and this one from Letter 66 seemed relevant:
>
>[snippatootie]
>>
>> It could be you're remembering this, from Letter 81:
>>
>[snipperooni]
>
>I remember it now that you point it out, but that's not what I was
>thinking of.
>
>It had to do with some bureaucratic stupidity in wartime England,
>under the Churchill government. But I can't remember details.
>
>A scan for Churchill turns up Letter 53, in which JRRT deplores
>Churchill's getting in bed with Stalin. That might be what I was
>thinking of. It doesn't say anything remotely like "we are all
>orcs", but does deplore the apparent turning of the entire world into
>a copy of America.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Troels Forchhammer
Jan 29, 2012, 5:25:48 PM1/29/12
to
In message <news:MPG.298d54b7c...@news.individual.net>
Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> spoke these staves:
I have found none that actually provide a verifiable source, and I
very much doubt that this is something that Tolkien actually did say.
A few inquiries may be in order, but if this draws a blank also from
other knowledgeable people, I shan't think it's real . . .
> But there's no way to prove Tolkien didn't say or write it. You
> could, I suppose, challenge the person making the quote to provide
> a cite.
Since the notion so expressed contradicts what Tolkien said elsewhere
(though he did acknowledge that there were orcs on both sides, as
e.g. in the quotation that Steve gave at the top of the thread), I
think it is fair to say that the burden of proof is on the shoulders
of those claiming that Tolkien /did/ say or write this -- and
'proof' in this case must be something other than someone claiming it
on the internet ("but Troels said that Tolkien thought that the moon
was made of green cheese . . .")
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
It is useless to meet revenge with revenge: it will heal
nothing.
- Frodo Baggins, /The Return of the King/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> spoke these staves:
>
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:03:21 -0500, Steve Morrison wrote:
>>
>> I've recently kept coming across a purported quote from Tolkien,
>> and I'm not sure whether it's authentic (though I suspect it
>> isn't). The quote is this:
>>
>> We were all orcs in the Great War.
>>
>> I can't find any source for it (I'm sure it isn't anywhere in
>> /Letters/). But I can't think of any way to prove Tolkien didn't
>> say it, either.
>
> I agree with you. It doesn't sound like something Tolkien would
> say, and it *does* contradict in spirit other things he has said.
> It *does* sound like the way some nameless subeditor would "punch
> up" a quote from an interview with Tolkien.
I agree. There are many references to this on the great interweb, but
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:03:21 -0500, Steve Morrison wrote:
>>
>> I've recently kept coming across a purported quote from Tolkien,
>> and I'm not sure whether it's authentic (though I suspect it
>> isn't). The quote is this:
>>
>> We were all orcs in the Great War.
>>
>> I can't find any source for it (I'm sure it isn't anywhere in
>> /Letters/). But I can't think of any way to prove Tolkien didn't
>> say it, either.
>
> I agree with you. It doesn't sound like something Tolkien would
> say, and it *does* contradict in spirit other things he has said.
> It *does* sound like the way some nameless subeditor would "punch
> up" a quote from an interview with Tolkien.
I have found none that actually provide a verifiable source, and I
very much doubt that this is something that Tolkien actually did say.
A few inquiries may be in order, but if this draws a blank also from
other knowledgeable people, I shan't think it's real . . .
> But there's no way to prove Tolkien didn't say or write it. You
> could, I suppose, challenge the person making the quote to provide
> a cite.
(though he did acknowledge that there were orcs on both sides, as
e.g. in the quotation that Steve gave at the top of the thread), I
think it is fair to say that the burden of proof is on the shoulders
of those claiming that Tolkien /did/ say or write this -- and
'proof' in this case must be something other than someone claiming it
on the internet ("but Troels said that Tolkien thought that the moon
was made of green cheese . . .")
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
It is useless to meet revenge with revenge: it will heal
nothing.
- Frodo Baggins, /The Return of the King/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Steve Morrison
Feb 6, 2012, 12:49:33 AM2/6/12
to
nas wrote:
> It looks like the first reference to it can be found on an old wikipedia edit from June 2002:
>
>> It is interesting to note that to an extent, Tolkien did not regard Orcs as
>> evil in their own right, but only as tools of Melkor and Sauron. He wrote
>> once that "we were all orcs in the Great War", indicating perhaps that an orc
>> for him was not an inherent build-up of personality, but rather a state of
>> mind bound upon destruction
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orc&diff=next&oldid=102151
>
> The editor's handle and real name are easily found - pop him a message for a direct answer.
Thanks! That is several years earlier than most of the instances
I found, and it may be the original source. It is still quoted
on some of the Tolkien wikis, though at least one marks it as
unsourced.
I sometimes wish the Internet had a site similar to Snopes for
quotes, which researched the authenticity of these things that
float around cyberspace. If a quote can't be absolutely disproved,
it would be worth something to at least cite a widely-respected
source which pronounced it doubtful!
> It looks like the first reference to it can be found on an old wikipedia edit from June 2002:
>
>> It is interesting to note that to an extent, Tolkien did not regard Orcs as
>> evil in their own right, but only as tools of Melkor and Sauron. He wrote
>> once that "we were all orcs in the Great War", indicating perhaps that an orc
>> for him was not an inherent build-up of personality, but rather a state of
>> mind bound upon destruction
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orc&diff=next&oldid=102151
>
> The editor's handle and real name are easily found - pop him a message for a direct answer.
Thanks! That is several years earlier than most of the instances
I found, and it may be the original source. It is still quoted
on some of the Tolkien wikis, though at least one marks it as
unsourced.
I sometimes wish the Internet had a site similar to Snopes for
quotes, which researched the authenticity of these things that
float around cyberspace. If a quote can't be absolutely disproved,
it would be worth something to at least cite a widely-respected
source which pronounced it doubtful!
Troels Forchhammer
Feb 15, 2012, 3:33:42 PM2/15/12
to
In message <news:Xns9FE9EE57...@130.133.4.11>
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> spoke these staves:
>
<snip>
> A few inquiries may be in order, but if this draws a blank also
> from other knowledgeable people, I shan't think it's real . . .
I asked about this on the mythsoc mailing list, and drew a blank with
knowledgeable people agreeing with our earlier conclusion that this is
apocryphal (which I, in this context, interprets as 'completely without
basis in known Tolkien writings or recordings')
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mythsoc/message/22892>
For my own part, I intend to treat this as spurious until such a time
as someone produces first-hand evidence.
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
People are self-centered
to a nauseous degree.
They will keep on about themselves
while I'm explaining me.
- Piet Hein, /The Egocentrics/
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> spoke these staves:
>
<snip>
> A few inquiries may be in order, but if this draws a blank also
> from other knowledgeable people, I shan't think it's real . . .
knowledgeable people agreeing with our earlier conclusion that this is
apocryphal (which I, in this context, interprets as 'completely without
basis in known Tolkien writings or recordings')
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mythsoc/message/22892>
For my own part, I intend to treat this as spurious until such a time
as someone produces first-hand evidence.
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
to a nauseous degree.
They will keep on about themselves
while I'm explaining me.
- Piet Hein, /The Egocentrics/
Steve Morrison
Feb 16, 2012, 12:32:26 AM2/16/12
to
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 21:33:42 +0100, Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message <news:Xns9FE9EE57...@130.133.4.11> Troels
> Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> spoke these staves:
>>
>>
> <snip>
>
>> A few inquiries may be in order, but if this draws a blank also from
>> other knowledgeable people, I shan't think it's real . . .
>
> I asked about this on the mythsoc mailing list, and drew a blank with
> knowledgeable people agreeing with our earlier conclusion that this is
> apocryphal (which I, in this context, interprets as 'completely without
> basis in known Tolkien writings or recordings')
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mythsoc/message/22892>
>
> For my own part, I intend to treat this as spurious until such a time as
> someone produces first-hand evidence.
Thanks for the additional research. I also now consider the quote
> In message <news:Xns9FE9EE57...@130.133.4.11> Troels
> Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> spoke these staves:
>>
>>
> <snip>
>
>> A few inquiries may be in order, but if this draws a blank also from
>> other knowledgeable people, I shan't think it's real . . .
>
> I asked about this on the mythsoc mailing list, and drew a blank with
> knowledgeable people agreeing with our earlier conclusion that this is
> apocryphal (which I, in this context, interprets as 'completely without
> basis in known Tolkien writings or recordings')
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mythsoc/message/22892>
>
> For my own part, I intend to treat this as spurious until such a time as
> someone produces first-hand evidence.
apocryphal (as I suspected to begin with). It's worth something to know
that people such as John Rateliff and our own Larry Swain have never
heard of a source for this one. I suspect it did originate with the
Wikipedia entry for "orcs", possibly as a result of someone
misremembering Letter #66 or Letter #71. As some character in /A Fire
Upon the Deep/ put it, there's a reason why this is known as the "Net of
a Million Lies".
So, it seems we're not the first to investigate this quote, either; one
of the participants on the thread you linked referred to this discussion
from a year ago on TheOneRing.net:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/77wucoc
which similarly concluded the quote was bogus. It's interesting that
someone there brought up another unsourced and possibly spurious Tolkien
quote, "litle by little one travels far", which I remember we debated
several years ago! Here is the thread:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/7bd9p2p
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