Statues of Argonath - Structurally Unsound ???
m
statues of Argonath as depicted in PJ's excellent film, are structurally
unsound.
I'm just guessing that each statue (Isildur and Anarion) is around 400 foot
tall, and that each outstretched left arm is around 50 feet long.
The left arm of each statue is totally unsuported and is carved from the rock of
the mountain.
I think that it is physically impossible for these stone arms to support their
own weight. Even using modern construction methods of concrete and high tensile
steel, it seems unlikely.
It's also impossible to believe that they would have 'wittled' out an entire
mountain (the length of the arm) before starting on the statue itself.
Are there any engineers, mathematicians etc in this forum who can say whether
these statues would be a physical possiblity to construct?
MK
PS: I am aware that these statues were computer generated and do not actually
exist. This is just a thought exercise.
Sean Murphy
> Are there any engineers, mathematicians etc in this forum who can say
> whether these statues would be a physical possiblity to construct?
>
> MK
>
> PS: I am aware that these statues were computer generated and do not
> actually exist. This is just a thought exercise.
>
I'm no engineer (well, three semesters) but I suspect you're right. A couple
of notes:
The arms aren't completely unsupported; the robes of the kings hang down
below the arms, which could theoretically provide some (though likely not
nearly enough) support.
Also, the statues are quite clearly not supposed to have been carved from
one giant chunk of mountainside; you can easily see what would be blocks
assembled to form the structure. Not that it has any bearing on the support
question...
paulh
>I only studied basic Physics and Engineering at school, but I'm sure that the
>statues of Argonath as depicted in PJ's excellent film, are structurally
>unsound.
>
>I'm just guessing that each statue (Isildur and Anarion) is around 400 foot
>tall, and that each outstretched left arm is around 50 feet long.
>
>The left arm of each statue is totally unsuported and is carved from the rock of
>the mountain.
>
>I think that it is physically impossible for these stone arms to support their
>own weight. Even using modern construction methods of concrete and high tensile
>steel, it seems unlikely.
>
>It's also impossible to believe that they would have 'wittled' out an entire
>mountain (the length of the arm) before starting on the statue itself.
>Are there any engineers, mathematicians etc in this forum who can say whether
>these statues would be a physical possiblity to construct?
>
>MK
>
>PS: I am aware that these statues were computer generated and do not actually
>exist. This is just a thought exercise.
So you're happy with Elves, Dwarves, Wizards, Dragons, Invisibility,
Immortality, the direct intervention of Gods, talking trees, ghosts,
Balrogs and so on.... but you're wondering about the plausibility arms
of the statues of the Argonath .....
perhaps they were mithril reinforced instead of that pathetic steel
stuff...
I'm not sure youre suited to Fantasy...
paulh
Annette Fraser
[snurp]
>
>So you're happy with Elves, Dwarves, Wizards, Dragons, Invisibility,
>Immortality, the direct intervention of Gods, talking trees, ghosts,
>Balrogs and so on.... but you're wondering about the plausibility arms
>of the statues of the Argonath .....
>
>perhaps they were mithril reinforced instead of that pathetic steel
>stuff...
>
>I'm not sure youre suited to Fantasy...
>
This reminds me of the howls of derision that occurred after the movie ID4[1].
People were annoyed at the seeming impossibility of uploading a virus to the
alien computer but were just fine with anti-gravity, faster than light travel
and all that other stuff :-).
Annette
[1] I am aware that many people think it is a crap film but I just don't think
the computer virus criticism is valid if you accept all the other implausible
stuff :-)
--
High Priestess of The Big Penguin
The Merchandise Queen
PokeyBun - Gotta mug 'em all
geoffrey kimbrough
> I only studied basic Physics and Engineering at school, but I'm sure that the
> statues of Argonath as depicted in PJ's excellent film, are structurally
> unsound.
>
> I'm just guessing that each statue (Isildur and Anarion) is around 400 foot
> tall, and that each outstretched left arm is around 50 feet long.
>
> The left arm of each statue is totally unsuported and is carved from the rock of
> the mountain.
>
> I think that it is physically impossible for these stone arms to support their
> own weight. Even using modern construction methods of concrete and high tensile
> steel, it seems unlikely.
>
> It's also impossible to believe that they would have 'wittled' out an entire
> mountain (the length of the arm) before starting on the statue itself.
>
> Are there any engineers, mathematicians etc in this forum who can say whether
> these statues would be a physical possiblity to construct?
I think it doesn't take a rocket scientist to make that statement. In stone?
As depicted? No way. IMHO, 400 foot Kings in armor would be
sufficiently impressive without the extended arm, but that's the way JRR
described them, and PJ had no engineering issues. (Let's face it, if PJ
had made the statues be physically possible by changing the pose from
what Tolkien described, few would have been pleased, and many
offended.)
Maybe they're made of the same trick stone used in Orthanc. Did the
Gondorians have that craft? I forget who built Orthanc, Numenoreans?
Drosselmeyer
saurin the sorseror
news:MPG.16f8d0791...@news.f9.net.uk...
What about the architecture of Orthanc and Barad-Dur?
What about the lack of handrails on the bridge at Khazad-Dum?
What about Boromir's ability to talk after a triple bullseye (150) from a
well tillered war bow?
What about the practicalities of horse riding shadows, invisible hobbits and
everlasting gobstoppers?
And what about fire safety in the Ewok village?
Donald Shepherd
(fra...@qut.edu.au) says...
> This reminds me of the howls of derision that occurred after the movie ID4[1].
> People were annoyed at the seeming impossibility of uploading a virus to the
> alien computer but were just fine with anti-gravity, faster than light travel
> and all that other stuff :-).
>
> Annette
>
> [1] I am aware that many people think it is a crap film but I just don't think
> the computer virus criticism is valid if you accept all the other implausible
> stuff :-)
Look, some of us just find it really hard to believe that an alien
mothership would be using Outlook Express.
--
*Dlanod*, *the* *Sparkly* *Nazgul*
Pimp of Morgoth
Worshipper of Arwen Lune
Sandra Macke
"saurin the sorseror" <sau...@cloud9.sky> wrote in message
news:3c8ee...@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com...
<snip to get to what I want to talk about>
> And what about fire safety in the Ewok village?
Don't get me started about the open flames in the scene with Gandalf in the
archives of Minas Tirith.
Sandy
------
"A coupla months in the laboratory can save a coupla hours in the library."
Westheimer's Discovery
saurin the sorseror
news:a6mp31$pdc$1...@nntp1.u.washington.edu...
At least Gandalf has his staff of CO2. The Ewoks ain't so handy with fire
extinguishers due to the ridiculous costumes they insist on wearing.
g.skinner
the
> statues of Argonath as depicted in PJ's excellent film, are structurally
> unsound.
>
> I'm just guessing that each statue (Isildur and Anarion) is around 400
foot
> tall, and that each outstretched left arm is around 50 feet long.
>
> The left arm of each statue is totally unsuported and is carved from the
rock of
> the mountain.
Of course the arm is supported, by a willing suspension of disbelief.
m
> In stone? As depicted? No way. IMHO, 400 foot Kings in armor would be
> sufficiently impressive without the extended arm, but that's the way JRR
> described them, and PJ had no engineering issues. (Let's face it, if PJ
> had made the statues be physically possible by changing the pose from
> what Tolkien described, few would have been pleased, and many
> offended.)
>
> Maybe they're made of the same trick stone used in Orthanc.
Oh no. Now this has thrown up a new question. Argonath arms fully extended or
not fully extended.
It may run and run, like the pointless Balrog, wings, no wings farce.
I can't remember reading that the arms of the statues were fully extended. If
the statues had arms bent at the elbow, then that much smaller extension of
stone may have been possible to support using the carved robes.
One of the first pictures I saw of the statues of Argonath, showed the left hand
flat against the body showing that the artist recognised the difficulties of
carving 400 foot statues.
But then, maybe you are right. Maybe they just used 'trick stone'.
MK
paulh
wrote:
>In article <p4cs8u8itkdt698ug...@4ax.com>, paulh <pa...@fahncahn.com> wrote:
>[snurp]
>>
>>So you're happy with Elves, Dwarves, Wizards, Dragons, Invisibility,
>>Immortality, the direct intervention of Gods, talking trees, ghosts,
>>Balrogs and so on.... but you're wondering about the plausibility arms
>>of the statues of the Argonath .....
>>
>>perhaps they were mithril reinforced instead of that pathetic steel
>>stuff...
>>
>>I'm not sure youre suited to Fantasy...
>>
>
>This reminds me of the howls of derision that occurred after the movie ID4[1].
>People were annoyed at the seeming impossibility of uploading a virus to the
>alien computer but were just fine with anti-gravity, faster than light travel
>and all that other stuff :-).
Well I suppose the issue was not the alien tech... but with known
human tech being compatibile with it...
But yes... it wasnt the sort of film to take serious...
paulh
Andrew Leech
>
>Maybe they're made of the same trick stone used in Orthanc. Did the
>Gondorians have that craft? I forget who built Orthanc, Numenoreans?
>
>Drosselmeyer
Perhaps the arms were held up by the same anti-entropic magic that the
rings used to preserve Rivendell and Lorien.
It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that as soon as the One ring was
destroyed and the Three had gone, lots of bits of Middle Earth started
to crumble at an alarming rate. I bet the arms fell off the statues with
a mighty splash fairly soon, and Orthanc started to drop bits of frost-
damaged stone within a few decades...
Andrew
--
--
--
Andrew Leech
Email: a dotte leech atte uea dotte ac dotte uk - U no Y !
Biological Sciences * All opinions personal
University of East Anglia *
Norwich * "I don't like it so you can't do it"
England * - New Labour Proverbs Ch1, V1.
Aris Katsaris
"Annette Fraser" <fra...@qut.edu.au> wrote in message
news:3c8edee2$1...@news.qut.edu.au...
>
> This reminds me of the howls of derision that occurred after the movie
ID4[1].
> People were annoyed at the seeming impossibility of uploading a virus to
the
> alien computer but were just fine with anti-gravity, faster than light
travel
> and all that other stuff :-).
There's a VAST difference between accepting that some alien civilisation
may have a higher technology than us, vs accepting the SHEER
STUPIDITY of us managing to upload a virus to the *alien* computer.
Being fine with anti-gravity or FTL travel is perfectly okay in SF, the
other
is just insulting to people's intelligence.
> [1] I am aware that many people think it is a crap film but I just don't
think
> the computer virus criticism is valid if you accept all the other
implausible
> stuff :-)
Why do you think that anti-gravity is implausible? And was FTL travel
actually referred to in the movie? I don't remember it.
"Implausible" is quite different to "unachieved" you know.
Aris Katsaris
Aris Katsaris
foot
> tall, and that each outstretched left arm is around 50 feet long.
>
> The left arm of each statue is totally unsuported and is carved from the
rock of
> the mountain.
But the arms are not unsupported. I very much doubt that the unsupported
outstretched left *hand* is more than *five* feet long.
Aris Katsaris
T.T. Arvind
Andrew Leech <lo...@sig.for.email.address> did boldly declaim:
>
> It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that as soon as the One ring was
> destroyed and the Three had gone, lots of bits of Middle Earth started
> to crumble at an alarming rate. I bet the arms fell off the statues with
> a mighty splash fairly soon, and Orthanc started to drop bits of frost-
> damaged stone within a few decades...
Hmmm... I think only things actually made using the power of the rings are
likely to have been affected by their destruction. So, yes, Lorien,
Rivendell, and perhaps even portions of the Havens may have begun
crumbling. However, I know of no evidence in the texts that would suggest
that *men* actually used the power of the Elven rings. And, somehow, I
don't quite see the Nazgul helping in the construction of the Argonath.
Cheers,
Meneldil -- taking a temporary break from marking undergrad essays
Joy
>
> Look, some of us just find it really hard to believe that an alien
> mothership would be using Outlook Express.
You must've missed the memo... Bill Gates has taken over the universe.
Joy
It's actually styrofoam from a special factory in Mundburg.
Doug Elrod
<p...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> I only studied basic Physics and Engineering at school, but I'm sure that the
> statues of Argonath as depicted in PJ's excellent film, are structurally
> unsound.
>
> I'm just guessing that each statue (Isildur and Anarion) is around 400 foot
> tall, and that each outstretched left arm is around 50 feet long.
>
> The left arm of each statue is totally unsuported and is carved from the
rock of
> the mountain.
As portrayed in the film, I don't think they're totally carved from the
rock of the mountain. If you look at Isildur's cloak under his raised hand,
you see the outline of rectangular blocks. So at least part of the statues
may be thin layers of stone over some sort of strong framework (like that
inside the Statue of Liberty, for instance). If the Statue of Liberty can
hold her torch, I don't see a problem with constructing these statues.
Especially given special materials (mithril, possibly), and Numenorean
technologies :-).
(I'm thinking that you could counter the weight of the outstretched arm
with cables going back into the cliffs behind each statue.)
-Doug Elrod (dr...@cornell.edu)
Justin Green
> It's also impossible to believe that they would have 'wittled' out an entire
> mountain (the length of the arm) before starting on the statue itself.
As to this complaint, I point you to the Crazy Horse memorial:
This sucker is supposed to be 563 feet high and 641 feet long! It
seems you can do a lot with a mountain if you feel like it.
You may have a point, however, since sadly this endeavor will probably
never be completed; but one senses that the men of Gondor felt a
greater responsibility toward The Epic than the U.S. Park Service.
I realize this doesn't address your "support" complaint: Crazy Horse,
of course, has his crazy horse to hold up his arm. Perhaps the
Argonath arms are hollow and reinforced with mithril, the titanium of
Middle Earth.
What I pictured, before the movie came out, was that the robes of the
figures _completely_ supported the arms (up to the wrists) all the way
down to the river. Here's an illustration (Howe?) where they are at
least supported to the elbow...I can't remember how it is in the film.
http://communities.msn.com/TolkienFans/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=9
Justin
Donald Shepherd
(quee...@hotmail.com) says...
Memos, pah. There's one floating around here notifying everyone of the
destruction of Earth prior to Dec 19th, 2001. Just goes to show how
accurate they are.
Dlehmicke
night.
1. The western statue viewed from the Rauros does seem to have switched raised
arms.
2. I saw for the first time a scene of Frodo sitting up suddenly, backwards.
Fnord
Considering the statues were actually constructed of pixels, physics
becomes irrelevent
Tom Holt
from m <p...@nowhere.com> contains these words:
> I think that it is physically impossible for these stone arms to support their
> own weight. Even using modern construction methods of concrete and high tensile
> steel, it seems unlikely.
Damn straight. Using modern construction techniques, it couldn't
possibly be done. Using *ancient* (lost, forgotten) contruction
techniques, we're invited to believe it was possible. In other words,
we're asked to accept that whoever put those darned things up was a
whole lot smarter than we are. Which is why the statues are there.
One of the themes that underlies the whole of LotR is that in Middle
Earth, there is no progress, only creeping, tragic empathy. Much that
was once known is lost for ever; even the heroes of the Third Age are
sadly declined from the greatness of their ancestors; even total
victory against Sauron can't halt the decline and eventual downfall
of elves, dwarves and men. Of this universal change & decay, the
Argonath is a pleasing visual symbol.
David Salo
<kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
But, remarkably, this thread is going to go on and on with the
supposition that the arms are not supported... :)
In my imagination, the statues were rather Egyptian in stance and
demeanor (not dress), and had the arm descending nearly straight to the
elbow, then bent sharply back up, with the 'warning hand' near the
shoulder. But I was not unhappy with the depiction in the movie.
DS
Chris Trboyevich
be supported. Has anyone ever seen a bridge beam, these things can be up to
150ft long and be placed in a cantelever postions (ie, supported on one end,
while hanging on the other.) Sometimes these spans can go well over half
the length of the beam. Now in LoTR, what could be occuring is that the arm
is actually 1/2 of an entire, single unit of rock, that is precisely
balanced so a cantelever effect occurs. And in reading the books, and
understanding the intimate knowledge of the dwarvish arts of smithing and
rock working (ie the halls of Moria) I believe they could easily carve out
a piece of rock that LOOKS as if it where simply hanging over in space.
Perhaps the other half of the rock is hidden by "excellent dwarven
craftsmanship"
all I am saying, is that anything is possible. This setup could be done
feasibly in the real world, so it shouldn't be hard to fathom in an imagined
world.
"m" <p...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.16f8d0791...@news.f9.net.uk...
Richard Woods
news:a6nird$30dd$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
> There's a VAST difference between accepting that some alien civilisation
> may have a higher technology than us, vs accepting the SHEER
> STUPIDITY of us managing to upload a virus to the *alien* computer.
>
> Being fine with anti-gravity or FTL travel is perfectly okay in SF, the
other
> is just insulting to people's intelligence.
Why do you think it would be impossible to upload a virus into an alien
computer? It is very likely that a computer developed by an alien
intelligence would work in a similar manner to our own computers, quite
simply because it is the obvious way for them to work. The guy who was
supposed to have created the virus had access to an alien computer that had
been studied for the past 40 years so I think the interfaces might have been
cracked in that time. Once you know the interfaces and a bit about how a
computer works, a virus is a pretty easy piece of software to write.
I'm an analyst programmer by profession and I didn't feel like my
intelligence was being insulted by being asked to accept that we could
develop a virus that could knock out the computer systems of an alien space
craft. Although my intelligence took a bit of a bruising from the
pro-american jingoism in it ;)
--
Crayfish
phobos
AFAIK the Havens weren't Ring-maintained. Círdan had handed over his
ring long before, to Gandalf. It's just these High Elf types who feel
the need to use rings to secure their homes - Círdan seems happy
enough to sit on the beach for thousands of years, toasting
marshmallows with a few Sindarin buddies.
morgan mair fheal
> computer? It is very likely that a computer developed by an alien
a lot does depend on how many ways there are to make computers and networks
> craft. Although my intelligence took a bit of a bruising from the
> pro-american jingoism in it ;)
the movie is an update of the hg wells story (if that were not obvious)
wells was a socialist and his interest in science fiction
was in examining social structures not in technology as such
for example first men in the moon was to contrast the warless and well
ordered hierarchial lunar society with that of humans
the war of the worlds was about two ideas
the mechanization of warfare had begun by then
and some had foreseen some kind souless automotive war weapon
replacing the glorious cavalry
and how mechanized warfare would finally end the glorification of war
the other was during that time the english homeland was quite peaceful
and prosperous because the english army was far away
kicking any less technological advanced colony in the keister
whenever they werent happy with their status
(black adder goes forth talks about this with lots of black humor)
in id4 theres one scene were its pointed out the aliens are just
as vunerable as we are but you have to defeat their technology first
compare that to taliban taunts last fall
demandng the usa abandon their high tech aircraft
and meet the taliban in the fields mano a mano
the universe can be very ironic behind your back
jrrt was faced with a problem of making orcs intelligent enough
to be challenging enemies
but keeping them souless so there would be no moral qualms
of killing them in large numbers
since his death we now have computer programs
which can simulate some human behavior
including limied speech generation and understanding
but nobody would claim are ensouled
the one ring was gold and apparently unornamented
but remember gold is a durable interface connector
and we dont know if anything was embedded in the ring
like a small silicon chip in a cermanic housing
the ring could draw enough of the bodys natural electricty
and maybe convert body heat to electricty
which would explain why the ring only worked while worn
when it went into the fire all the orc control software was destroyed
and sauron was no longer able to maintain his hacks into orc neural net
and these is why the orcs ceased to be fighting force
when the ring was destroyed
or maybe not
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
>One of the themes that underlies the whole of LotR is that in Middle
>Earth, there is no progress, only creeping, tragic empathy.
You do mean entropy, don't you?
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
> In my imagination, the statues were rather Egyptian in stance and
>demeanor (not dress), and had the arm descending nearly straight to the
>elbow, then bent sharply back up, with the 'warning hand' near the
>shoulder. But I was not unhappy with the depiction in the movie.
Apart from the Egptian-ness, that is how I visualized them too. That would
not be too structurally demanding.
Öjevind
m
c.trbo...@worldnet.att.net says...
> I am an engineer, a structural engineer, and I can tell you how that arm can
> be supported. Has anyone ever seen a bridge beam, these things can be up to
> 150ft long and be placed in a cantelever postions (ie, supported on one end,
> while hanging on the other.) Sometimes these spans can go well over half
> the length of the beam. Now in LoTR, what could be occuring is that the arm
> is actually 1/2 of an entire, single unit of rock, that is precisely
> balanced so a cantelever effect occurs. And in reading the books, and
> understanding the intimate knowledge of the dwarvish arts of smithing and
> rock working (ie the halls of Moria) I believe they could easily carve out
> a piece of rock that LOOKS as if it where simply hanging over in space.
> Perhaps the other half of the rock is hidden by "excellent dwarven
> craftsmanship"
> all I am saying, is that anything is possible. This setup could be done
> feasibly in the real world, so it shouldn't be hard to fathom in an imagined
> world.
Hmmm, whatever.
Brian Rauchfuss - PCD
Tom Holt <lemmi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>One of the themes that underlies the whole of LotR is that in Middle
>Earth, there is no progress, only creeping, tragic empathy. Much that
Creeping empathy is a very tragic thing. I once knew someone with creeping
empathy - first she cared how one person felt, and then another, and pretty
soon she cared about whole *families*. Fortunately she was locked up before
she could start caring about everyone.
:-> (Sorry, I think you mean entropy)
>was once known is lost for ever; even the heroes of the Third Age are
>sadly declined from the greatness of their ancestors; even total
>victory against Sauron can't halt the decline and eventual downfall
>of elves, dwarves and men. Of this universal change & decay, the
>Argonath is a pleasing visual symbol.
Interestingly enough, Tolkien said that the elves attempt to halt entropy
with the 3 rings was foolish (I don't remember the exact quote from the
letters).
Brian
Cam Kirmser
news:MPG.16f8d0791...@news.f9.net.uk...
> I only studied basic Physics and Engineering at school, but I'm sure that
the
> statues of Argonath as depicted in PJ's excellent film, are structurally
> unsound.
>
> I'm just guessing that each statue (Isildur and Anarion) is around 400
foot
> tall, and that each outstretched left arm is around 50 feet long.
>
> The left arm of each statue is totally unsuported and is carved from the
rock of
> the mountain.
>
> I think that it is physically impossible for these stone arms to support
their
> own weight. Even using modern construction methods of concrete and high
tensile
> steel, it seems unlikely.
>
> It's also impossible to believe that they would have 'wittled' out an
entire
> mountain (the length of the arm) before starting on the statue itself.
>
> Are there any engineers, mathematicians etc in this forum who can say
whether
> these statues would be a physical possiblity to construct?
Actually, it doesn't matter. Tolkien wrote that they were as he said, so the
material, ipso facto, is of whatever material or loading required to have
them exist. Of course, there is also magic.
Bryan S. Slick
[Wed, 13 Mar 2002 04:48:50 GMT]
:So you're happy with Elves, Dwarves, Wizards, Dragons, Invisibility,
:Immortality, the direct intervention of Gods, talking trees, ghosts,
:Balrogs and so on.... but you're wondering about the plausibility arms
:of the statues of the Argonath .....
DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!
Congratulations, Paul.. point of the day.
--
Bryan S. Slick, bryan at slick-family dot net
"To those who preserve it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never
know."
Bryan S. Slick
[Wed, 13 Mar 2002 05:17:56 GMT]
:movie ID4[1].
There is no such movie ID4. The movie to which you refer, Independence
Day, can by no rational means be abbreviated as ID4. I was irritated by
that stupidity then, and am equally irritated by it now.
Celaeno
>In article <3c8edee2$1...@news.qut.edu.au>, Annette Fraser
>(fra...@qut.edu.au) says...
>> This reminds me of the howls of derision that occurred after the movie ID4[1].
>> People were annoyed at the seeming impossibility of uploading a virus to the
>> alien computer but were just fine with anti-gravity, faster than light travel
>> and all that other stuff :-).
>>
>> Annette
>>
>> [1] I am aware that many people think it is a crap film but I just don't think
>> the computer virus criticism is valid if you accept all the other implausible
>> stuff :-)
>
>Look, some of us just find it really hard to believe that an alien
>mothership would be using Outlook Express.
Damn you. I just spit cookie crumbs on my keyboard and monitor.
CHOKLIT cookie crumbs, even.
(Nayway, suspension of disbelief hinges on not introducing something
unbelievable in the setting. Aliens blowing up earth = good. Aliens
using software compatible with that on Earth = bad.)
Now I need another cookie.
Cel
TEUNC Triumvirate
Donald Shepherd
says...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> phobos <pho...@hotmail.com> did boldly declaim:
> >
> > AFAIK the Havens weren't Ring-maintained. Círdan had handed over his
> > ring long before, to Gandalf.
>
> / her ring in order for its works to survive? i.e., if Cirdan had created
> the Havens using the ring, would he have had to have and hold it for the
> Havens to continue, or would they have continued regardless of who had the
> ring, so long as the ring continued to hold its power? I can't recall
> exact quotes either way, but I'd strongly suspect the latter.
Didn't the Havens exist prior to making of the Rings?
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_...@hotmail.com>
BALROG: Screw Gandalf! Where’s this Ralph Bakshi guy?
- http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=534018
Annette Fraser
[snip]
>
>(Nayway, suspension of disbelief hinges on not introducing something
>unbelievable in the setting. Aliens blowing up earth = good. Aliens
>using software compatible with that on Earth = bad.)
>
Well I disagree. I find the notion of FTL travel unbelievable when I think
about it in the context of my (read my own private, one that I live in from
day to day) universe but I can suspend disbelief when watching a science
fiction movie. Same for the uploading of the virus thing.
Annette
--
High Priestess of The Big Penguin
The Merchandise Queen
PokeyBun - Gotta mug 'em all
Martin A. M. Featherstone
m <p...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.16f8d0791...@news.f9.net.uk...
> I only studied basic Physics and Engineering at school, but I'm sure that
the
> statues of Argonath as depicted in PJ's excellent film, are structurally
> unsound.
>
> I'm just guessing that each statue (Isildur and Anarion) is around 400
foot
> tall, and that each outstretched left arm is around 50 feet long.
>
> The left arm of each statue is totally unsuported and is carved from the
rock of
> the mountain.
>
> I think that it is physically impossible for these stone arms to support
their
> own weight. Even using modern construction methods of concrete and high
tensile
> steel, it seems unlikely.
>
> It's also impossible to believe that they would have 'wittled' out an
entire
> mountain (the length of the arm) before starting on the statue itself.
>
> Are there any engineers, mathematicians etc in this forum who can say
whether
> these statues would be a physical possiblity to construct?
>
>
> PS: I am aware that these statues were computer generated and do not
actually
> exist. This is just a thought exercise.
Hollowed out arms?
phobos
> In article <a6qaar$749$1...@cpca7.uea.ac.uk>, T.T. Arvind (ttar...@vsnl.in)
> says...
> > X-No-Archive: Yes
> >
> > phobos <pho...@hotmail.com> did boldly declaim:
> > >
> > > AFAIK the Havens weren't Ring-maintained. Círdan had handed over his
> > > ring long before, to Gandalf.
> >
> > Hrm... did an elf need to be in continued uninterrupted possession of his
> > / her ring in order for its works to survive? i.e., if Cirdan had created
> > the Havens using the ring, would he have had to have and hold it for the
> > Havens to continue, or would they have continued regardless of who had the
> > ring, so long as the ring continued to hold its power? I can't recall
> > exact quotes either way, but I'd strongly suspect the latter.
>
> Didn't the Havens exist prior to making of the Rings?
Yes, but they seem to move - Círdan's Havens used to be on the west
coast of Beleriand, now they're on the west coast of Eriador, so he's
had to shift at least once. Exactly when he settled on his current
site I don't know.
Now I'm envisaging a D-Day style floating harbour, and a whole lot of
Elvish mobile homes...
Imladris was founded in the Second Age, IIRC, when the Rings had
already been made, as a stronghold against Sauron, but I think
Lothlorien is older than that. It had probably been a centre of Elvish
population long before Galadriel came there... what was the name of
that bunch of Elves who headed off down Anduin instead of continuing
west into Beleriand on the Great Journey? Them.
In any case, I don't think any of the three directly depended on the
power of their associated Ring for their existence in the same way
that Barad-dur depended on the One. Once the Rings die, the magic goes
with them - so presumably Elrond can no longer command the river, and
the Mirror goes dark, and a lot of the Elvish feel of the places fades
- but they're not in danger of structural collapse.
Banjo
> Why do you think it would be impossible to upload a virus into an alien
> computer? It is very likely that a computer developed by an alien
> intelligence would work in a similar manner to our own computers, quite
> simply because it is the obvious way for them to work.
Hahaha... nice one - that just shows the breadth of your horizon. Consider
only those few examples we can find on Earth that are somewhat _different_
to the obvious way
- Manchester Data Flow Ring
- Nondeterministic Turing Machine (theortical only - agreed)
- The recent bio-optical processors (well they not quite at a processor
level yet but gearing towards them) that the Japanese are workign on (was
that NEC? someone please correct me if I'm mistaken here).
> I'm an analyst programmer by profession and I didn't feel like my
> intelligence was being insulted by being asked to accept that we could
> develop a virus that could knock out the computer systems of an alien
space
> craft.
That just speaks for your intelligence :)
Of course the good guy (Jeff Goldblum) was so skilled he wrote the virus in
machine code of the alien machine, coz those wako scientist have not come up
with an idea of procuring a full blown developers suite for those alien
workstations, so the translatation was done by hand. Oh well - things
happen.
The when they arrived at the mothership he noticed they updated the OS,
totally changed the underlying hardware on those machines (RISC has became
an outdated technology in those 40 years), so this machine code no longer
works. No worries. In the time it takes to make a few cigar puffs he learnt
the new system by scanning it with his brain waves (in the lack of other
interfaces), quickly figured out they are now using 13-trite (somewhat more
than 32 byte) architecture, converted the virus by hand, then he refined the
access interface coz they extended the addressing schemes to cover for their
galactical expansion and got rid of packet oriented protocols coz they were
too error prone AND BOOM - the virus is in and working.
Nah - that does not insult my intelligence. I find it more than probable.
Actually, I am sure every single one of us could do it if we had 3 maybe 4
days with a 40 year old alien computer.
Perhaps I have not mentioned a few additional bits and pieces that were
standing in the way, but the hell with that. Go for it Jeff! Btw what was
his character's name in the movie?
B
PS. I am not an analyst programmer, my code is required to compile, work and
be stable :)
Aris Katsaris
"morgan mair fheal" <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-14...@c36.ppp.tsoft.com...
> > Why do you think it would be impossible to upload a virus into an alien
> > computer? It is very likely that a computer developed by an alien
>
> a lot does depend on how many ways there are to make computers and networks
>
> > craft. Although my intelligence took a bit of a bruising from the
> > pro-american jingoism in it ;)
>
> the movie is an update of the hg wells story (if that were not obvious)
>
> wells was a socialist and his interest in science fiction
> was in examining social structures not in technology as such
Sorry for asking this, but can you perhaps use the occasional capital
letter and punctuation?
Thanks.
Aris Katsaris
Aris Katsaris
"Bryan S. Slick" <br...@slick-family.not> wrote in message
news:MPG.16fb058a5...@news.newsgroups.st...
> [Annette Fraser]
> [Wed, 13 Mar 2002 05:17:56 GMT]
>
> :movie ID4[1].
>
> There is no such movie ID4. The movie to which you refer, Independence
> Day, can by no rational means be abbreviated as ID4.
Not an abbreviation - symbolism.
Aris Katsaris
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
>
>Imladris was founded in the Second Age, IIRC, when the Rings had
>already been made, as a stronghold against Sauron, but I think
>Lothlorien is older than that. It had probably been a centre of Elvish
>population long before Galadriel came there... what was the name of
>that bunch of Elves who headed off down Anduin instead of continuing
>west into Beleriand on the Great Journey? Them.
The Nandor. Some of them did go to Beleriand later on and became the
Laiquendi, the "Green-elves".
Öjevind.
Sean Murphy
> There is no such movie ID4. The movie to which you refer, Independence
> Day, can by no rational means be abbreviated as ID4. I was irritated by
> that stupidity then, and am equally irritated by it now.
The makers of the movie can call it pretty much whatever they damn well
want, and they want to call it that.
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00003Q43A.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
Sorry if you don't like it, but that's the way it is...
David Flood
news:783ee0ea.02031...@posting.google.com...
> m <p...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:<MPG.16f8d0791...@news.f9.net.uk>...
> > I only studied basic Physics and Engineering at school, but I'm sure
that the
> > statues of Argonath as depicted in PJ's excellent film, are structurally
> > unsound.
> >
> > I'm just guessing that each statue (Isildur and Anarion) is around 400
foot
> > tall, and that each outstretched left arm is around 50 feet long.
> >
> > The left arm of each statue is totally unsuported and is carved from the
rock of
> > the mountain.
> >
> > I think that it is physically impossible for these stone arms to support
their
> > own weight. Even using modern construction methods of concrete and high
tensile
> > steel, it seems unlikely.
> >
> > It's also impossible to believe that they would have 'wittled' out an
entire
> > mountain (the length of the arm) before starting on the statue itself.
> >
> > Are there any engineers, mathematicians etc in this forum who can say
whether
> > these statues would be a physical possiblity to construct?
Considering we're talking about the Númenoreans (who had access to Elven
lore and "magical" arts) then anything's possible, I suppose.
Over to you, Donald? (unless Michael O'Neill wants to dazzle us :)
D.
Russ
<NOSPAMm...@utvinternet.ie> writes:
>Considering we're talking about the Númenoreans (who had access to Elven
>lore and "magical" arts) then anything's possible, I suppose.
>
>Over to you, Donald? (unless Michael O'Neill wants to dazzle us :)
The arms are not hanging out in mid air. Rather they are wearing a robe that
hangs down from their arms and this provides the support for the arms.
Russ
Andrew Leech
>In any case, I don't think any of the three directly depended on the
>power of their associated Ring for their existence in the same way
>that Barad-dur depended on the One. Once the Rings die, the magic goes
>with them - so presumably Elrond can no longer command the river, and
>the Mirror goes dark, and a lot of the Elvish feel of the places fades
>- but they're not in danger of structural collapse.
****
[Scene: The Prancing Pony, some years after the War]
Swarthy Man: Well of course I never got to Barad-dur myself, but the Orcs
who came to Isengard told us all about it. Shocking it was. All plasterboard
and black paint lashed together with ring-craft. You had to be careful
where you trod or you'd go straight through to the dungeons. And it wasn't
for want of telling Him - it's all very well bunging up towers of adamant
everywhere and tacking them up with spells, they said, but if that Ring
ever goes for a burton, you'll look pretty silly then! But He wouldn't listen.
I was pretty glad I was out of it at the end, I can tell you.
Hobbit Gaffer: Not like Rivendell then. Old Sam Gamgee said that was a fair
piece o' work. Not flashy, like, but solid - you knew it'd last and you
wouldn't be forever having to get it re-pointed. Course, it's getting a bit
down at heel lately, what with the Elves going and all.
Swarthy Man: That Orthanc place was a good job though. Numenorean they say.
They must have used some wizardry to get it up, but they made sure it was
sound underneath, so it's still here, not like Barad-dur.
Hobbit Gaffer: Course, nowadays you can't get good builders for love nor
money. Look at those new houses at Chetwood...
****
It's rather interesting how the power of the individual Rings varies. The
Three seem to have to be wielded to have an effect, but Sauron manages
quite well to rebuild his empire even though the Ring is either at the bottom
of the River or under the mountains with Gollum. The One seems to bind magic
into the fabric of Middle Earth, as the effects of its destruction are felt
widely and rapidly, and lead inexorably to the fading of the Three. The power
of the Rings presumably derived from their creators. I wonder what would have
happened if all the Elves, Maiar and other immortal beings had departed Middle
Earth but left the Rings behind - would they still have had any power, or just
been pretty trinkets?
Andrew
--
--
--
Andrew Leech
Email: a dotte leech atte uea dotte ac dotte uk - U no Y !
Biological Sciences * All opinions personal
University of East Anglia *
Norwich * "I don't like it so you can't do it"
England * - New Labour Proverbs Ch1, V1.
David Flood
news:20020315145424...@mb-cg.aol.com...
Acknowledged. Nonetheless, (the White Tower, Orthanc?) they were quite
capable engineers and artificiers.
D.
Donald Shepherd
Say after me _Software Engineer_. OTOH, if you look up Chris
Trboyevich's response, you'll find a good reponse, complete with a good
indication that the OP was just trolling.
Aris Katsaris
"Annette Fraser" <fra...@qut.edu.au> wrote in message
news:3c918b0c$1...@news.qut.edu.au...
> In article <3c90c69c...@news.world-online.no>,
cel...@shavenwookie.nospam.com (Celaeno) wrote:
> >
> >(Nayway, suspension of disbelief hinges on not introducing something
> >unbelievable in the setting. Aliens blowing up earth = good. Aliens
> >using software compatible with that on Earth = bad.)
>
> Well I disagree. I find the notion of FTL travel unbelievable when I think
> about it in the context of my (read my own private, one that I live in from
> day to day) universe but I can suspend disbelief when watching a science
> fiction movie. Same for the uploading of the virus thing.
The problem is that the suspension of disbelief required to accept the virus
has nothing to do with the science-fictioness of the movie while FTL travel
does. We have computers we know how they work and we know how
computer viruses work. Would you accept if a cowboy fired his gun and
the bullet mid-flight made a 180 degrees turn to kill the indian behind
him?
Not all kinds of unbelievability are the same. If they wanted to use the
computer virus trick I could come up with something (somewhat) more
believable in ten minutes. Say that those dead aliens sealed in Area 51
were *opponents* of the invading aliens, and *they* were carrying the
plans for the virus that could be used to destroy them.
Use the computer-tech guy to realize that this certain part of the alien data
was indeed designed to be a virus and under which circumstances. Previous
scientists working with the data couldn't figure it out because they hadn't
understood there were two alien races involved with different techs
each.
Aris Katsaris
morgan mair fheal
> the bullet mid-flight made a 180 degrees turn to kill the indian behind
> him?
who framed roger rabbit
and the fifth element
Chris Trboyevich
"Donald Shepherd" <donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.16fd35ac...@mail.uq.edu.au...
Steven Dufour
bothered me. For one thing IMO Isildur is a "bad guy", responsible for the
problems in LOTR and doesn't deserve a statue. :-)
David Flood
What, no common first/second years in your uni's? ;)
OTOH, if you look up Chris
> Trboyevich's response, you'll find a good reponse, complete with a good
> indication that the OP was just trolling.
I don't see it anywhere here - however, news.cis.dfn.de appears to be
missing some posts (I haven't seen anything by Mr. Beck in a while, for
example :)
D.
Aris Katsaris
I'm talking about Old West here. There's no problem with imagining
scientifictional which can do the above stuff, or cartoonish bullets. The
problem of impossibility comes when dealing with the *known*. A normal
bullet doing stuff that no bullet could do. Like a computer virus doing
stuff no computer virus could do...
Aris Katsaris
morgan mair fheal
<kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
> "morgan mair fheal" <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mair_fheal-15...@c22.ppp.tsoft.com...
> > > computer viruses work. Would you accept if a cowboy fired his gun and
> > > the bullet mid-flight made a 180 degrees turn to kill the indian behind
> > > him?
> >
> > who framed roger rabbit
> > and the fifth element
>
> I'm talking about Old West here. There's no problem with imagining
id4 was not in the old west
it was in the new west
Cam Kirmser
...Runaway with Tom Selleck and Gene Simmons.
morgan mair fheal
<ckir...@xkillspamx.charter.net> wrote:
i thought we were talking about movies
Donald Shepherd
Common first year, but despite my selection of the civil group project, I
never did the Statics/Dynamics subject (equivalent to Civil/Mech). Too
much physics for someone who never did it in high school/
> OTOH, if you look up Chris
> > Trboyevich's response, you'll find a good reponse, complete with a good
> > indication that the OP was just trolling.
>
> I don't see it anywhere here - however, news.cis.dfn.de appears to be
> missing some posts (I haven't seen anything by Mr. Beck in a while, for
> example :)
"I am an engineer, a structural engineer, and I can tell you how that arm
can be supported. Has anyone ever seen a bridge beam, these things can
be up to 150ft long and be placed in a cantelever postions (ie, supported
on one end, while hanging on the other.) Sometimes these spans can go
well over half the length of the beam. Now in LoTR, what could be
occuring is that the arm is actually 1/2 of an entire, single unit of
rock, that is precisely balanced so a cantelever effect occurs. And in
reading the books, and understanding the intimate knowledge of the
dwarvish arts of smithing and rock working (ie the halls of Moria) I
believe they could easily carve out a piece of rock that LOOKS as if it
where simply hanging over in space. Perhaps the other half of the rock is
hidden by "excellent dwarven craftsmanship"
all I am saying, is that anything is possible. This setup could be
done feasibly in the real world, so it shouldn't be hard to fathom in an
imagined world."
While it was top-psotted, it is a very good point, coming from a
professional nonetheless. :)
Donald Shepherd
Steven Dufour (fourd...@earthlink.net) says...
> Great points, I think they must have used magic. The statues have always
> bothered me. For one thing IMO Isildur is a "bad guy", responsible for the
> problems in LOTR and doesn't deserve a statue. :-)
In general Isildur is a good guy (he helped defeat the worst enemy of his
age), but one mistake caused all his good deeds to be wiped out in some
people's opinion.
mark edelstein
> Great points, I think they must have used magic. The statues have always
> bothered me. For one thing IMO Isildur is a "bad guy", responsible for the
> problems in LOTR and doesn't deserve a statue. :-)
>
Isildur saved the white tree. For that he deserves a statue. And he
was planning to repent-read the disaster of the gladden fields. As for
statues, Numenorian science and arts faded away gradually which
explains how they were able to build orthanc or dunharrow too.
David Salo
raised arm and hand facing (more or less) outward from the body:
http://www.imagewalker.com/wedding/honeymoon/buddha%20of%20aukana.html
The recently destroyed statues at Bamiyan, more than four times as
tall, were originally of similar design.
DS
Jette Goldie
"Steven Dufour" <fourd...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:CvCk8.23389$Vx1.2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Great points, I think they must have used magic. The statues have always
> bothered me. For one thing IMO Isildur is a "bad guy", responsible for the
> problems in LOTR and doesn't deserve a statue. :-)
>
I take it you haven't read the books?
Isildur is NOT a "bad guy" - he's a "good guy" who made a
mistake.
--
Jette
(aka Vinyaduriel)
"Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html
David Flood
> In article <a6vben$ha0cr$1...@ID-121201.news.dfncis.de>, David Flood
> (NOSPAMm...@utvinternet.ie) says...
> > "Donald Shepherd" <donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.16fd35ac...@mail.uq.edu.au...
> > > Say after me _Software Engineer_.
> >
> > What, no common first/second years in your uni's? ;)
>
> Common first year, but despite my selection of the civil group project, I
> never did the Statics/Dynamics subject (equivalent to Civil/Mech). Too
> much physics for someone who never did it in high school/
Wise decision :)
> > OTOH, if you look up Chris
> > > Trboyevich's response, you'll find a good reponse, complete with a
good
> > > indication that the OP was just trolling.
> >
> > I don't see it anywhere here - however, news.cis.dfn.de appears to be
> > missing some posts (I haven't seen anything by Mr. Beck in a while, for
> > example :)
>
> "I am an engineer, a structural engineer, and I can tell you how that arm
> can be supported. Has anyone ever seen a bridge beam, these things can
> be up to 150ft long and be placed in a cantelever postions (ie, supported
> on one end, while hanging on the other.) Sometimes these spans can go
> well over half the length of the beam. Now in LoTR, what could be
> occuring is that the arm is actually 1/2 of an entire, single unit of
> rock, that is precisely balanced so a cantelever effect occurs. And in
> reading the books, and understanding the intimate knowledge of the
> dwarvish arts of smithing and rock working (ie the halls of Moria) I
> believe they could easily carve out a piece of rock that LOOKS as if it
> where simply hanging over in space. Perhaps the other half of the rock is
> hidden by "excellent dwarven craftsmanship"
> all I am saying, is that anything is possible. This setup could be
> done feasibly in the real world, so it shouldn't be hard to fathom in an
> imagined world."
>
> While it was top-psotted, it is a very good point, coming from a
> professional nonetheless. :)
Looks good all right. I presume he's saying that the *arm* section is
seperate from the rest of the statue?
D.
Donald Shepherd
> news:MPG.16fe0645...@mail.uq.edu.au...
> > "I am an engineer, a structural engineer, and I can tell you how that arm
> > can be supported. Has anyone ever seen a bridge beam, these things can
> > be up to 150ft long and be placed in a cantelever postions (ie, supported
> > on one end, while hanging on the other.) Sometimes these spans can go
> > well over half the length of the beam. Now in LoTR, what could be
> > occuring is that the arm is actually 1/2 of an entire, single unit of
> > rock, that is precisely balanced so a cantelever effect occurs. And in
> > reading the books, and understanding the intimate knowledge of the
> > dwarvish arts of smithing and rock working (ie the halls of Moria) I
> > believe they could easily carve out a piece of rock that LOOKS as if it
> > where simply hanging over in space. Perhaps the other half of the rock is
> > hidden by "excellent dwarven craftsmanship"
> > all I am saying, is that anything is possible. This setup could be
> > done feasibly in the real world, so it shouldn't be hard to fathom in an
> > imagined world."
> >
> > While it was top-psotted, it is a very good point, coming from a
> > professional nonetheless. :)
>
> Looks good all right. I presume he's saying that the *arm* section is
> seperate from the rest of the statue?
Preetty much. Imagine that you've got the arm of the statues as a
seperate bit, with a significiant part going back into the statues, in
order to hold the arm up. That's how I visualised it anyway.
Celaeno
Toons (who always do stuff like that), and nifty futuristic weapons.
The unbelievability hinges on using microsoft programs to infect the
alien mothership, when we all know what microsoft is capable of
making.
Cel
TEUNC Triumvirate
Aris Katsaris
And viruses in the new west must still obey certain rules of plausibility, like
bullets did in the old west.
You are still using non-sequiturs.
Aris Katsaris
Aris Katsaris
"Steven Dufour" <fourd...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:CvCk8.23389$Vx1.2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> bothered me. For one thing IMO Isildur is a "bad guy", responsible for the
> problems in LOTR and doesn't deserve a statue. :-)
Don't you discriminate between errors in morality and errors in judgment?
There's not a single deed of Isildur that we know of which could be
deemed immoral - and only one which was colossally stupid.
Aris Katsaris
David Salo
<kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
It's not even that -- Isildur was just the person closest to the
Ring when it lost its original owner. Had Isildur died, the next
closest person -- even Elrond, perhaps -- would have picked it up.
Everything else follows from that; once Isildur had taken the Ring, he
could not have cast it away or destroyed it with the best will in the
world. Nor Elrond nor Galadriel nor Gil-galad would have fared better;
worse, perhaps, since they were already ringlords, and knew something
of a Ring's powers. It wasn't a matter of Isildur's choice. And
according to the 'reconstructed' account in Unfinished Tales, Isildur
abjured the Ring at the last, and spoke of his desire to pass it on to
others, showing that his will was not wholly corrupted. It is doubtful
that he could have actually done so, and doubtless in time he would
have been wholly corrupted had he wielded the Ring as High King in
Annúminas, becoming in the end, perhaps, a Wraith-lord far more
fearsome and deadly than the Witch-king. But that would not have been
by his choice, but by that of the Ring. He was lucky to have been
slain when he was.
DS
Chris Trboyevich
precisly positioned, but because of workmanship or craftsmanship, you just
don't see the rest it. I'm trying to find some examples of real world
structures where a cantelever method is obvious to see. If i find some
soon, I will post some pictures to illistrate a cantelever effect.
"Donald Shepherd" <donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.16fe6faf5...@mail.uq.edu.au...
morgan mair fheal
cel...@shavenwookie.nospam.com (Celaeno) wrote:
look again
it was a macintosh powerbook
Steve Horgan
news:a6ssv7$1987$1...@news2.ipartners.pl...
> Of course the good guy (Jeff Goldblum) was so skilled he wrote the virus
in
> machine code of the alien machine, coz those wako scientist have not come
up
> with an idea of procuring a full blown developers suite for those alien
> workstations, so the translatation was done by hand. Oh well - things
> happen.
>
> The when they arrived at the mothership he noticed they updated the OS,
> totally changed the underlying hardware on those machines (RISC has became
> an outdated technology in those 40 years), so this machine code no longer
> works. No worries. In the time it takes to make a few cigar puffs he
learnt
> the new system by scanning it with his brain waves (in the lack of other
> interfaces), quickly figured out they are now using 13-trite (somewhat
more
> than 32 byte) architecture, converted the virus by hand, then he refined
the
> access interface coz they extended the addressing schemes to cover for
their
> galactical expansion and got rid of packet oriented protocols coz they
were
> too error prone AND BOOM - the virus is in and working.
>
> Nah - that does not insult my intelligence. I find it more than probable.
> Actually, I am sure every single one of us could do it if we had 3 maybe 4
> days with a 40 year old alien computer.
>
> Perhaps I have not mentioned a few additional bits and pieces that were
> standing in the way, but the hell with that. Go for it Jeff! Btw what was
> his character's name in the movie?
>
There is one further point to consider. In the film the aliens had already
been making use of Earth's communications infrastructure for their own
purposes, so the interfaces may already have been written, by the aliens
themselves. Moreover, our hero had already spent a considerable time within
the film studying this particular issue. I always thought that that was the
point to his inspiration, that the aliens had manufactured the gateway into
their system and that he was making use of it.
--
Stephen Horgan, Basildon, Essex, England
"intelligent people will tend to overvalue intelligence"
Hayek
David Flood
> In article <a70chb$hkh14$1...@ID-121201.news.dfncis.de>, David Flood
> (NOSPAMm...@utvinternet.ie) says...
> > "Donald Shepherd" <donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.16fe0645...@mail.uq.edu.au...
> > > While it was top-psotted, it is a very good point, coming from a
> > > professional nonetheless. :)
> >
> > Looks good all right. I presume he's saying that the *arm* section is
> > seperate from the rest of the statue?
>
> Preetty much. Imagine that you've got the arm of the statues as a
> seperate bit, with a significiant part going back into the statues, in
> order to hold the arm up. That's how I visualised it anyway.
That's it... (I hated 'Theory of Structures' in third level, and never paid
much attention :)
Any more word on the TTT trailer?
D.
Celaeno
>In article <3c93a102...@news.world-online.no>,
>cel...@shavenwookie.nospam.com (Celaeno) wrote:
>> The unbelievability hinges on using microsoft programs to infect the
>> alien mothership, when we all know what microsoft is capable of
>> making.
>
>look again
>it was a macintosh powerbook
No way am I going to look again. And the same logic applies, nayway.
Cel
TEUNC Triumvirate
morgan mair fheal
cel...@shavenwookie.nospam.com (Celaeno) wrote:
meddle not in the affairs of steve jobs
for he is blunt and quick to destroy vital products
Cam Kirmser
That is a movie. It came out in 1984, if I recall correctly.
morgan mair fheal
<ckir...@xkillspamx.charter.net> wrote:
> "morgan mair fheal" <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mair_fheal-16...@c42.ppp.tsoft.com...
> > In article <u96llva...@corp.supernews.com>, "Cam Kirmser"
> > <ckir...@xkillspamx.charter.net> wrote:
> >
> > > "morgan mair fheal" <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:mair_fheal-15...@c22.ppp.tsoft.com...
> > > > > computer viruses work. Would you accept if a cowboy fired his gun
> and
> > > > > the bullet mid-flight made a 180 degrees turn to kill the indian
> behind
> > > > > him?
> > > >
> > > > who framed roger rabbit
> > > > and the fifth element
> > >
> > > ...Runaway with Tom Selleck and Gene Simmons.
> >
> > i thought we were talking about movies
>
> That is a movie. It came out in 1984, if I recall correctly.
actually that was a comment about sellecks talent in that turkey
Banjo
> There is one further point to consider. In the film the aliens had already
> been making use of Earth's communications infrastructure for their own
> purposes, so the interfaces may already have been written, by the aliens
> themselves. Moreover, our hero had already spent a considerable time
within
> the film studying this particular issue. I always thought that that was
the
> point to his inspiration, that the aliens had manufactured the gateway
into
> their system and that he was making use of it.
>
that they were open to a reverse attack. And the considerable time spent on
studying ... well... he spent a few days (at most) on listening to the
signal to figure out it was a countdown (hardly usefull for virus
infection), then he had a couple of days to get acquainted with an alien
computer. Agreably, the scientists had 40 years (or so) to work with those
computers but:
a) they had no power (the power came when Aliens approached), so they could
perhaps know what clikcs the keyboard (or another human, pardon alien
interface) made
b) when the power came they had at most a few days (skilled guys to hack
alien construction in such a short frame of time)
c) it was already 40 years old, so it was perhaps like a very old terminal
station compared to a top-notch mainframe that was 40 years newer, supported
the terminal in backward compatibility mode and most likely was not
vulnerable to the same sort of attack as the terminal station on the alien
fighter craft
Kind of like a comparison of the simple puters that faulted Arian 5 to the
control centres of Huston or the European equivalent (whichever it might be
... anyone to volunteer?).
B.
Öjevind Lång
That is pretty much the posture I imagined for the Argonath.
Öjevind
phobos
> [Scene: The Prancing Pony, some years after the War]
> Swarthy Man: Well of course I never got to Barad-dur myself, but the Orcs
> who came to Isengard told us all about it. Shocking it was. All plasterboard
> and black paint lashed together with ring-craft. You had to be careful
> where you trod or you'd go straight through to the dungeons. And it wasn't
> for want of telling Him - it's all very well bunging up towers of adamant
> everywhere and tacking them up with spells, they said, but if that Ring
> ever goes for a burton, you'll look pretty silly then! But He wouldn't listen.
> I was pretty glad I was out of it at the end, I can tell you.
I just remembered - this is Evil Overlord Rule #107:
"Even though I don't really care because I plan on living forever, I
will hire engineers who are able to build me a fortress sturdy enough
that, if I am slain, it won't tumble to the ground for no good
structural reason."
> It's rather interesting how the power of the individual Rings varies. The
> Three seem to have to be wielded to have an effect, but Sauron manages
> quite well to rebuild his empire even though the Ring is either at the bottom
> of the River or under the mountains with Gollum. The One seems to bind magic
> into the fabric of Middle Earth, as the effects of its destruction are felt
> widely and rapidly, and lead inexorably to the fading of the Three. The power
> of the Rings presumably derived from their creators. I wonder what would have
> happened if all the Elves, Maiar and other immortal beings had departed Middle
> Earth but left the Rings behind - would they still have had any power, or just
> been pretty trinkets?
They'd probably have remained powerful. Celebrimbor is long since
{dead? gone west? Can't remember, but he's out of the picture}, but
the Three remain active until the destruction of the One. And while
Sauron spends a couple of millennia trying to reassemble some sort of
a body, the One stays potent.
Troels Forchhammer
news:af26c87a.02031...@posting.google.com...
>
> Celebrimbor is long since {dead? gone west? Can't remember,
> but he's out of the picture}
They're basically the same, aren't they?
Anyway Celebrimbor took the fast lane to Mandos, opting for the
mandatory wait there ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Please reply to (t.f...@mail.dk)
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,
and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein
Graeme
planning to repent-read the disaster of the gladden fields.
>>
According to Gandalf, a lot of people might PLAN to repent. Would he have gone
through with it if he'd escaped? Well, with a Great Ring, the odds are no.
Thomas Franke
> problem of impossibility comes when dealing with the *known*. A normal
> bullet doing stuff that no bullet could do.
J.F.K.: The magic bullet. SCNR
rand mair fheal
statues were not tastefully wrapped in cloth?
Graeme
were not tastefully wrapped in cloth?
>>
Don't quitcher day job. Your standup is worse than Whoopie's.
~~~~~
"All right. But apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine,
public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system, and public health
...What have the Romans ever done for us?"
rand mair fheal
graem...@aol.compost (Graeme) wrote:
> >>so did lotr lose oscars because ashcroft put the fix in because the statues
> were not tastefully wrapped in cloth?
> >>
>
> Don't quitcher day job. Your standup is worse than Whoopie's.
be wary of satanic calico cats
Graeme
>>be wary of satanic calico cats
OK, I give up. What's the punchline? Is it some kind of anagram of that?
A YWCA abortionist faces calc?
Hmm, it's still not funny...
rand mair fheal
graem...@aol.compost (Graeme) wrote:
> >> Don't quitcher day job. Your standup is worse than Whoopie's.
>
> >>be wary of satanic calico cats
>
> OK, I give up. What's the punchline? Is it some kind of anagram of that?
http://www.andrewtobias.com/newcolumns/011120.html
Turns Out It's Not the Black Cats You Have to Watch Our For
Published on November 20, 2001
Shortly after becoming Attorney General, John Ashcroft was headed abroad.
An advance team showed up at the American embassy in the Hague to check
out the digs, saw cats in residence, and got nervous. They were worried
there might be a calico cat. No, they were told, no calicos. Visible
relief. Their boss, they explained, believes calico cats are signs of the
devil. (The advance team also spied a statue of a naked woman in the
courtyard and discussed the possibility of its being covered for the
visit, though that request was not ultimately made.)
Graeme
>>http://www.andrewtobias.com/newcolumns/011120.html
Turns Out It's Not the Black Cats You Have to Watch Our For
Published on November 20, 2001
>>
OK, I understand the reference now, I just don't see what it has to do with
anything I said. In fact, I might like to gently suggest that this might be
just a bit of an obsession for you, if John Ashcroft is the answer to every
question. ("Hey Fheal, how bout them Steelers?" "John Ashcroft!!!")
If the justification for anything foolish you say is going to be that John
Ashcroft is even worse, then we might as well end the discussion right now.
It's obviously not going to go anywhere.
You seem like a Democratic version of the Clinton Haters.