What exactly is a "Wight"?
Norseman
Will <alde...@primus.com.au> wrote in article
<3b5fde73$1...@news.iprimus.com.au>...
> I'm currently reading "The ill Made
> Mute" by Cecilia Dart Thornton, and there's a Wight in the second chapter
> called the "Each Uisge" which has the form of a horse, and compells humans
> to mount it, but once there on it they can't escape or dismount, and the
> wight drags them under a lake where it disembowels them.
That's an exact description of one of the many shapes of "Nøkken", or "Näcken",
of Norse / Scandinavian / Germanic folklore. A "water troll" in lack of a better
word, or a "vette" in Norwegian.
Never heard of a wight described that way. As for what a wight really is... who
knows. Safe to say in most fantasy writing it is a type of undead with a physical
form as opposed to etheral, usually humanoid. I've only come upon the wight in
fantasy myself, and not in mythology.
Someone else have any folklore of wights?
Öjevind Lång
>I'm not entirely sure. "Fog on the Barrow Downs" was the weirdest and
>hardest to understand chapter of LoTR (in my opinion), and I'm still not
>certain as to exactly what a "Wight" is. I'm currently reading "The ill
Made
>Mute" by Cecilia Dart Thornton, and there's a Wight in the second chapter
>called the "Each Uisge" which has the form of a horse, and compells humans
>to mount it, but once there on it they can't escape or dismount, and the
>wight drags them under a lake where it disembowels them. This is all I
>know....I haven't read THAT many fantasy novels. Just hoping someone who
has
>might be able to spare a few minutes to enlighten me :-)
Tolkien himself wrote, in "A Guide to the Names in the Lord of the Rings":
"*Barrow-wights*. Creatures dwelling in a 'barrow' (grave-mound); see
*Barrow* under Place-names. It is an invented name; an equivalent should be
invented."
The word "wight" is archaic or dialectal English for "a creaure or a
person (*archaic*, *dialect* or *ironic*); a supernatural being
(*obsolete*)." ("The Chambers Dictionary".) It is derived from Old English
"wiht", which meant "a creature, a thing".
Öjevind
wrob
>
> Will <alde...@primus.com.au> wrote in article
> <3b5fde73$1...@news.iprimus.com.au>...
> > I'm currently reading "The ill Made
> > Mute" by Cecilia Dart Thornton, and there's a Wight in the second chapter
> > called the "Each Uisge" which has the form of a horse, and compells humans
> > to mount it, but once there on it they can't escape or dismount, and the
> > wight drags them under a lake where it disembowels them.
>
> That's an exact description of one of the many shapes of "Nøkken", or "Näcken",
> of Norse / Scandinavian / Germanic folklore. A "water troll" in lack of a better
> word, or a "vette" in Norwegian.
How can a troll take the form of a horse, and how can a horse disembowel
someone underwater? Norse trolls always struck me as humanesque.
> Never heard of a wight described that way. As for what a wight really is... who
> knows. Safe to say in most fantasy writing it is a type of undead with a physical
> form as opposed to etheral, usually humanoid. I've only come upon the wight in
> fantasy myself, and not in mythology.
Sounds like I should avoid any book mentioning wights as it's probably a
lame attempt at cribbing from Tolkien. (There probably are mythological
sources however -- I bet they don't refer to the same type of entity JRRT
and his copiers do.)
-BER
TB
"Will" <alde...@primus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3b5fde73$1...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> I'm not entirely sure. "Fog on the Barrow Downs" was the weirdest and
> hardest to understand chapter of LoTR (in my opinion), and I'm still not
Made
> Mute" by Cecilia Dart Thornton, and there's a Wight in the second chapter
> called the "Each Uisge" which has the form of a horse, and compells humans
> to mount it, but once there on it they can't escape or dismount, and the
> know....I haven't read THAT many fantasy novels. Just hoping someone who
has
> might be able to spare a few minutes to enlighten me :-)
>
called a 'Kelpie' (origin uncertain, probably an unknown Gaelic corruption)
which is described as being horse-like; sometimes, I believe, possessing the
hind quarters of a fish. It's normal element is in and around water. It's
generally regarded as being malign.
TB.
hoodedman
to human livers....
Can't add anything to Ojevind's translation of 'wight', but in Orkney
folklore there were malign mound creatures similar to barrow-wights, known
as 'Hogboons'. Sounds a pretty funny name but it's derivation is old norse
'haug buin'--mound dwelling creature.
janet
TB <NoOn...@NoWhere.com> wrote in message
news:9jpkg8$hut$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
William of Baskerville
William.
James Giles
"William of Baskerville" <williamofb...@drewcroke.com> wrote in message
news:gtZ77.30608$EP6.7...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
> The opposite of a "Wong."
Or the opposite of "Reft".
--
J. Giles
Wayne Farmer
news:hVR77.6314$5t1....@nntpserver.swip.net...
> The word "wight" is archaic or dialectal English for "a creaure or a
> person (*archaic*, *dialect* or *ironic*); a supernatural being
> (*obsolete*)." ("The Chambers Dictionary".) It is derived from Old English
> "wiht", which meant "a creature, a thing".
Interesting. I'd be interested in hearing the origin for the "Isle of
Wight". The "island of people" seems rather plain; perhaps it was "island
of creatures" or "island of things"?
Jamie Armstrong
"Boris Badenov" <bb...@frostbite.falls.state.mn.us> wrote in message
news:9jpkm...@drn.newsguy.com...
> In article <3b5fde73$1...@news.iprimus.com.au>, "Will" says...
>
> >I'm not entirely sure. "Fog on the Barrow Downs" was the weirdest and
> >hardest to understand chapter of LoTR (in my opinion), and I'm still not
> >certain as to exactly what a "Wight" is. I'm currently reading "The ill
Made
> >Mute" by Cecilia Dart Thornton, and there's a Wight in the second chapter
> >called the "Each Uisge" which has the form of a horse, and compells
humans
> >to mount it, but once there on it they can't escape or dismount, and the
> >wight drags them under a lake where it disembowels them. This is all I
> >know....I haven't read THAT many fantasy novels. Just hoping someone who
has
> >might be able to spare a few minutes to enlighten me :-)
>
>
the
> dead sailors in "Rime of the Ancient Mariner." Maybe that's not what they
were,
> or intended to be, but that is always how I imagined them.
>
Hmmm... but if I remember The Rime correctly (and it's years since I read
it, so I could be wrong), the dead sailors carry no evil or malicious intent
to the Mariner. Or were you thinking more of the fact that they are simply
dead men walking?
As for what the wights were, the closest answer I can find is in Appendix A
of LotR - 'The North-kingdom and Dunedain':
"In the days of Argeleb II the plague came to Eriador... It was at this time
that an end came of the Dunedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar
and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there".
This is 'corroborated' in UT:
"The Witch-king now had a clearer understanding of the matter. He had known
something of the country long ago, in his wars with the Dunedain, and
especially of the Tyrn Gorthad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil
wights had been sent there by himself." (UT, The Hunt for the Ring, p.348)
So they are evil spirits. Not all that useful, really! I'd always imagined
them to be spirits which had occupied the remains of the dead kings.:
perhaps the Dunedain had mummified the remains before they were interred,
and this allowed the wights to move into a convenient host. All speculation
though :).
Jamie
Lord Jubjub
"Norseman" <xx...@xx.no> wrote:
My Mirriam-Webster notes that the word came Old High German via Middle
English. In Middle English, it meant wild thing or creature. In OHG,
it simply meant creature.
Other associated meanings were 'swift' or 'strong', possible related to
the 'vigor'. Originally, the 'g' in 'wight' would probably have been
sounded.
I've had a difficult time finding any reference with what I have with
me. I may have to do some net exploring.
--
Lord Jubjub
Ruler of the Jabberwocky, Guardian of the Wabe, Prince of the Slithy Toves,
Leader of the raths
the softrat
<ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
>Tolkien himself wrote, in "A Guide to the Names in the Lord of the Rings":
>"*Barrow-wights*. Creatures dwelling in a 'barrow' (grave-mound); see
>*Barrow* under Place-names. It is an invented name; an equivalent should be
>invented."
> The word "wight" is archaic or dialectal English for "a creaure or a
>person (*archaic*, *dialect* or *ironic*); a supernatural being
>(*obsolete*)." ("The Chambers Dictionary".) It is derived from Old English
>"wiht", which meant "a creature, a thing".
>
you gonna learn.....
the softrat
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Not the brightest crayon in the box, now, are we?
Öjevind Lång
"The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Place-names" says that it comes from the
Old British *Wyth*, probably related to the Welsh *gwaith* which means
"turn", a word cognate with Latin *vectis* ("lever", literally "the act of
lifting") and the Old English *wiht* ("weight"). drived from hte root of
Latin *veho* ("to carry"). It concludes: "The meaning might have been 'what
has been raised', i. e. 'what rises above the sea', 'island'."
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
>Damn it, Ole, you're trying to confuse them with facts again. When are
>you gonna learn.....
Enough of that. Let us hear you sing to the moon again!
Öjevind
Roger Clewley
Wights were "spirits", hence in Quenya: Ëalar, and were described as "evil" and "deadly." They could manifest a physical form (fana) that could interact with incarnate beings in the world. Morgoth is described as corrupting some of the lesser spirits in Halls of Mandos in the Lost Tales. They would make good candidates for the beings described as 'wights'.
RC
Will wrote:
I'm not entirely sure. "Fog on the Barrow Downs" was the weirdest and
hardest to understand chapter of LoTR (in my opinion), and I'm still not
certain as to exactly what a "Wight" is. I'm currently reading "The ill Made
Mute" by Cecilia Dart Thornton, and there's a Wight in the second chapter
called the "Each Uisge" which has the form of a horse, and compells humans
to mount it, but once there on it they can't escape or dismount, and the
Rune F. Akselsen
form av en hvit hest". My father has a copy of that painting, and on that,
"Nøkken" has been translated into English as "the water sprite". Maybe that
is a better translation, I wouldn't know. My English isn't very good.
Rune
wrob <wr...@erols.com> skrev i meldingsnyheter:3B60263F...@erols.com...
David Salo
<rf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A picture by the Norwegian painter Theodor Kittelsen has the title "Nøkken i
> form av en hvit hest". My father has a copy of that painting, and on that,
> "Nøkken" has been translated into English as "the water sprite". Maybe that
> is a better translation, I wouldn't know. My English isn't very good.
Nixie I think is the English word. Though there may be a special word
for one that takes the form of a white horse; I recall such a legend, but
not the name.
DS
wrob
Kelpie? (see elsewhere in thread)
I still say you've got to have a pretty overactive imagination to
believe in man-eating horses that live underwater. Maybe "Nessie"
(the loch ness monster) is to blame?
-Ber
Elizabeth Sorg
enticed children to ride them...the flesh of the child would be stuck fast to the
horse, and the Kelpie would drown them and eat them. Been a long time since I read
that particular myth though :)
Beth, who's going back to lurking
Kuei...@-remove-hotmail.com
wrote:
Silkies were seal people ( a number of good fantasy novels about this
and a fine movie, "the secret of Roan Innish)
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/1614/Story/Silkie/Silkie.htm
There is also the kelpie (each uisge), a water spirit usually seen in
the shape
of a young horse around lochs and pools. It would willingly
allow mortals to ride upon its back, but would then
attempt to drag its rider down below the water. The kelpie
possesses a magic bridle, and if you look through the
holes in the bridle-bit you will gain the gift of Second Sight.
In the mid nineteenth century the Clan MacGregor
were said to have such a kelpie bridle in their possession. One
Seumas MacGregor, of an earlier generation,
was on his way home at dusk from Inverness to Glenlivet, and he
sat down to rest on the edge of Loch Slochd.
He was just wishing he had his 'auld nag' to carry him home when
to his surprise the very beast appeared. He
mounted and rode for a while when suddenly the horse took off,
heading straight for the loch. Seumas realised
then that it was a kelpie and jumped off as the horse plunged
into the water, however he managed to retain hold
of its bridle.
Loch na Dubhrachan, on the isle of Skye, is famous for having a
kelpie. A few kelpie songs have survived, such
as the 'Cumha an Each Uisge' (Lament of the Water Horse). A
kelpie went into human shape and married an
island girl. However, one day she saw sand on his breast and
discovering his secret, she fled in horror.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/1614/Celtwicc/Celts/celts04.htm
nixie
Nixies are Germanic sprites, beings of the water. Although the male
doesn't often show himself to humans. The female
however, is often seen sitting in the sun on the banks of their watery
homes. Nixie maidens are beautiful with long hair and blue
eyes. If a man tries to spy on their beauty, the song of the maiden
can cause them to lose their wits.
http://webhome.idirect.com/~donlong/monsters/Html/Nixie.htm
Sindamor Pandaturion
--
[remove -remove- to reply]
"It was not always like this, of course. On occasion it's been worse."
-- John Gardner, "Grendel"
TB
<Kueikutzu@-remove-hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:32k4mt8apb39fhuau...@4ax.com...
Fascinating! Anyone into the psychology of folk-tales and/or social
anthropology who can shed some light on this 'undercurrent' of equine myth?
I have no interest whatsoever in horses 'per se', but there's obviously
something going on deep in our collective unconscious if it throws up this
sort of thing throughout history.
I should imagine that horses in dreams, for instance, have some sort of
significance; I wonder what Jung has said on the subject. There's also the
fact that most of the creatures described have a tendency to be malignant;
why?
The constant thread of 'enticement', and being led away to an unpleasant,
usually watery, death. Children and youths are also usually present
somewhere; an 'innocence lost' motif?
The depths of the human mind....
TB.
Öjevind Lång
>I seem to remember something about Kelpies...that they hung around the
shoreline and
>enticed children to ride them...the flesh of the child would be stuck fast
to the
>horse, and the Kelpie would drown them and eat them. Been a long time since
I read
>that particular myth though :)
In the Swedish province of Scania, people believed in a similar creature
called a "bäckahäst" ("brook horse"). It lived in brooks and streams, not in
the sea. It used to graze on meadows, pretending it was an ordinary horse,
until someone was stupid enought to mount it. Then it was
drowning-and-eating time!
Öjevind
TB
Hi Ojevind,
I found this reference quite a while ago, and forgot I had saved it (it is
verbatim) -
"In old Scotland, the Kelpie is a treacherous water devil who lurks in lakes
and rivers. It usually assumes the shape of a young horse. When a tired
traveler stops by a lake to rest or to have a drink, he would see a horse,
apparently peacefully grazing. When he mounts the horse, the Kelpie dives
into the water, but besides wet clothes, the rider gets away unharmed".
- Pantheon.org/Mythica
-------------------------
Apart from the 'happy ending', it is almost identical to your post. The
universality of cultures, and a classic example of the collective
unconscious crossing national boundaries!
TB.
Flame of the West
James Giles wrote:
> > The opposite of a "Wong."
>
> Or the opposite of "Reft".
Two wights make an aiwpwane.
--
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth.
Öjevind Lång
>"Öjevind Lång" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message...
Yes, indeed. Those legends of treacherous water horses must be very old.
Incidentally, it is interesting that the Greek god Poseidon was not only the
god of the sea, but also of horses.
Öjevind
Will
> I still say you've got to have a pretty overactive imagination to
> believe in man-eating horses that live underwater. Maybe "Nessie"
> (the loch ness monster) is to blame?
Did I not quote the author and book where I read it? Read my post before
trying to make me look stupid.
David Salo
<alde...@primus.com.au> wrote:
I believe that the "you" is of indefinite reference: i.e. = "a person,
somebody, one".
DS
wrob
> Yes, indeed. Those legends of treacherous water horses must be very old.
> Incidentally, it is interesting that the Greek god Poseidon was not only the
> god of the sea, but also of horses.
>
> Öjevind
Very strange, especially since both horses and the people in question
originated on the steppes!!
-Ber
wrob
No, no, this is all clearly a plot by Will to make us believe in horses!
:-)
-Ber
Norseman
wrob <wr...@erols.com> wrote in article <3B62387D...@erols.com>...
> I still say you've got to have a pretty overactive imagination to
> believe in man-eating horses that live underwater. Maybe "Nessie"
> (the loch ness monster) is to blame?
In the case of Nøkken, it's a shapeshifter. Only a white horse to lure man onto
it's back.
Öjevind Lång
If I remember correctly, the experts say that Poseidon is probably not an
Indo-European god but one who was worshipped in what was to become Greece
before the Greeks turned up. Presumably, the Greeks added the bit about
Poseidon also being the god of horses. Perhaps they were inspired by the
white manes on the sea when it blows.
Öjevind
Tall Tree
A wight is the essence of a once living being who turned away from goodness
to serve evil. When killed they are still living, but half way between
spirit and physical. And because their master still exsisted (i.e. Mr. Head
Nazgul, who "sent" them to the Downs) then they were bound to him and his
commands, even if he himself had changed jobs. When the Dows were
abandoned, there were no new orders, so they dwelt there, hoping for a
juicy hobbit to pass by.
"Will" <alde...@primus.com.au> wrote in
news:3b5fde73$1...@news.iprimus.com.au:
> I'm not entirely sure. "Fog on the Barrow Downs" was the weirdest and
> hardest to understand chapter of LoTR (in my opinion), and I'm still
> not certain as to exactly what a "Wight" is. I'm currently reading "The
> ill Made Mute" by Cecilia Dart Thornton, and there's a Wight in the
> second chapter called the "Each Uisge" which has the form of a horse,
> and compells humans to mount it, but once there on it they can't escape
> or dismount, and the wight drags them under a lake where it disembowels
Mike Scott Rohan
from "TB" <NoOn...@NoWhere.com> contains these words:
> The 'horse' angle - in Scottish folklore, there's a supernatural creature
> called a 'Kelpie' (origin uncertain, probably an unknown Gaelic corruption)
> which is described as being horse-like; sometimes, I believe, possessing the
> hind quarters of a fish. It's normal element is in and around water. It's
> generally regarded as being malign.
True, o king. May I add that it means "water horse", and it's
pronounced something like "Yak Ooshker" -- "uisge" being the same
word as in "uisge beatha", water of life, pronounced by the Saxons
"whisky". It's been strongly linked with the legend of the Loch Ness
Monster -- the water horse, I mean, not the whisky.:-)
Slainte,
Mike
--
mike.sco...@asgard.zetnet.co.uk