Chapter of the week LOTR Bk1 Ch4: A Short Cut To Mushrooms

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Belba Grubb from Stock

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Feb 9, 2004, 12:54:05 PM2/9/04
to
Chapter-of-the-Week discussion series. The chapter is "A Short Cut To
Mushrooms."

The schedule, future unclaimed chapters, and volunteering instructions
can be found at David Flood's schedule web page:

http://parasha.maoltuile.org

CHAPTER SUMMARY:
----------------

In the morning when Frodo awakes the Elves have gone, and Pippin and
Sam are already up. While the encounter with the Elves has left
Pippin almost giddy, Frodo is still fearful of the Black Riders and
doubts that he should take anyone with him into danger and
deprivation, even Sam. Frodo asks Sam if he still wants to accompany
him and gets an unexpectedly serious response: Sam feels that he has
something to do before the end and it lies ahead of him; he must see
it through. Frodo doesn't understand but accepts Sam's companionship
on his quest.

After Frodo eats, he and Pippin disagree about the best route to the
Buckleberry Ferry; Frodo wins out and they start out cross-country
rather than going by the road as Pippin had wanted to do. They go
down the hill but at its foot are blocked by a stream that cuts across
their chosen path. The sight of a Black Rider on the hilltop above
them rules out any thoughts of going back. The three hobbits dive for
cover, and the Rider doesn't come down the bank after them. They
follow the stream for a while until Pippin realizes it's the
Stock-brook and will take them way off course; then they wade it and
get under cover of some trees, staying there even though Pippin begins
to wonder if they're now going too far to the south. Frodo isn't sure
he wants to come out into the open yet. After walking for miles they
stop for lunch and get a little tiddly on the drink the Elves left in
their bottles. Their happy mood is shattered by the fell sound of two
Nazgul calling in the distance, and the hobbits, sobered, get up and
start off once more, hoping to reach the Ferry before dark.

The woods soon end in grasslands and tilled fields, and as the hobbits
return to an inhabited part of the Shire, the Nazgul start to seem
like phantoms to them. However, Frodo is upset when he learns that
they're on Farmer Maggot's land, as he used to raid the farmer's
mushroom fields when he was a youngster in Buckland, and the farmer
finally beat him and had his dogs chase young Frodo all the way to the
Ferry, five miles or more.

They get into the lane, so they're no longer trespassing, and start
walking up it toward the Ferry. Farmer Maggot does loose his dogs
when strangers appear in the lane near his farm, but Pippin, who has
visited the farmer before with Merry, greets him and the farmer calls
off the dogs. He is unusually interested to meet a Baggins there at
that time and invites them all in for a beer. In response to his
questions, Pippin confesses that they were on his lands but entirely
by error and are heading for the Ferry. He welcomes both Pippin and
Frodo, though he remembers the time when Frodo was "one of the worst
young rascals of Buckland," and tells them that a Black Rider has
visited him before the hobbits arrived and offered gold for news of
"Baggins."

Farmer Maggot makes a few shrewd guesses that this all has to do with
Bilbo's journey, though Frodo says nothing about it, and invites the
hobbits to stay to dinner and then afterwards he will drive them in a
wagon to the Ferry. Frodo agrees, and they all have a good dinner and
afterward get into the wagon and set off. The night is dark and soon
becomes foggy, but Farmer Maggot doesn't light his lanterns, wanting
to hear anybody before he sees them (or is seen by them). However,
they encounter no one on the long trip until just at the entrance to
the Ferry, when they hear hoofs on the road ahead, approaching.
Farmer Maggot and Sam get down to "send this rider to the
rightabouts!" while Frodo remains hidden in the wagon with Pippin.
The rider does ask for Mr. Baggins, but it's only Merry, who got
concerned when the three hobbits didn't show up by dark and rode up
toward Stock to try to find them. Relieved, Farmer Maggot hands the
three hobbits over to Merry and gives Frodo a dish of cooked mushrooms
Mrs. Maggot put up for him, before lighting his lamps and heading back
home and leaving the four hobbits at the entrance to the Ferry.

SUGGESTED TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION:
--------------------------------

-- How do the individual reactions of the hobbits to their encounter
with Elves last night let us get to know them better and add to the
story development?

-- As mentioned in the discussion of Chapter 3, Pippin is starting to
develop as a character (and has a way to go, from seeming airhead to
eventual combat veteran of Gondor, quick to threaten a Big People thug
and his buddies in the Shire). Am I imagining it, or is there quite a
bit of development of Pippin in this chapter?

-- Who was right about the route, Pippin or Frodo?

-- Someone asked this in "The Prologue" discussion, too: who loves
Farmer Maggot? I do! Some Maggot-related topics:
--the difference between the buildings of the Marish and
Hobbiton;
--Stoors vs. Harfoots vs. Fallohides (this was pretty thoroughly
discussed earlier, but I think it really gives us more of a sense of
depth and contrast here, more tension (supplemented by Sam's
xenophobia), and a better sense of the reality of the Shire, than if
Maggot, Frodo, Pippin and Sam were just generic "hobbits");
--what would a farm of those days tend to be like?
--what sort of "huge" and "wolvish-looking" dogs would a
child-sized hobbit be likely to own that could also be set on one of
the Big People and his horse?
--not part of this chapter, but what role does Farmer Maggot play
in "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" (it's been a long time since I
read that)?
--mushroom farms. This is extremely minor and picky, I agree,
but coincidentally I grew up in an area where there were both
traditional farms and mushroom farms. The mushrooms were farmed in a
big, long and windowless building that was kept dark inside, while the
traditional farms, of course, had open fields. Was young Frodo guilty
of breaking and entering, as well as raiding the farmer's mushroom
fields, or are there other ways to farm mushrooms?
--and....(your thoughts).

--How many Nazgul were in the Shire at this point? We heard two
calling in the woods here, but Gildor had told Frodo danger was on all
four sides, which would indicate at least four.

--Dark. I'm probably in a minority of one on this, but I don't think
the tale really starts turning "dark" until this chapter, on the way
to the Buckleberry Ferry, and then only as something for Frodo and Sam
to struggle to overcome. I hope this isn't a rant, but JRRT in this
work always seems to light up his darkness with stars, his evil
characters with good ones, his desperate circumstances with hope; how
can "The Lord of the Rings" be called dark, then? In this initial
part of the story, what has gone before has been foreshadowing and
preparation, things external to the hobbits, that is -- things elvish
and evil and wizardly...high matters. In the last chapter Frodo
wanders around Bag End and watches the place grow dark, and when he
goes outside he sees stars. In that same paragraph with the stars we
first learn of the presence of a Nazgul. On the way across the Shire
there are Nazgul, but there are also Elves. That's all external
stuff, really, in that even Frodo doesn't understand it very well.
But now, as the actual departure is approaching, the hobbits are truly
enveloped in dark with no Elves about and only their own resources to
depend on. Farmer Maggot takes them as far as he can but then has to
leave them in dark (the nearest lights are a couple of lamps by the
water's edge a hundred yards away, as we'll see in the next chapter).
No more high matters for Frodo now -- he's got to start off on his
own, in the dark, after leaving the lights of friends and relatives
behind for good. I wonder if it could be said that the rest of the
story is just a struggle for him and Sam to find the light that will
balance their individual ways through the dark.

--And...(your thoughts). The floor is now open.

AC

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Feb 9, 2004, 5:36:00 PM2/9/04
to
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:54:05 -0600,
Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
> -- Someone asked this in "The Prologue" discussion, too: who loves
> Farmer Maggot? I do! Some Maggot-related topics:

I do. There are hints about him that make him a perceptive character.
Obviously, if Bombadil knows him, then Maggot may very well be one of the
more travelled Hobbits, as queer as certain Bagginses for consorting with
odd characters.

> --mushroom farms. This is extremely minor and picky, I agree,
> but coincidentally I grew up in an area where there were both
> traditional farms and mushroom farms. The mushrooms were farmed in a
> big, long and windowless building that was kept dark inside, while the
> traditional farms, of course, had open fields. Was young Frodo guilty
> of breaking and entering, as well as raiding the farmer's mushroom
> fields, or are there other ways to farm mushrooms?

I get the impression that Shire mushrooms may have grown differently than
most mushrooms

--
Aaron Clausen

tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)

Troels Forchhammer

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Feb 9, 2004, 6:09:27 PM2/9/04
to
Belba Grubb from Stock wrote:
>
> Chapter-of-the-Week discussion series. The chapter is "A Short Cut To
> Mushrooms."

<snip well-done summary>

> -- How do the individual reactions of the hobbits to their encounter
> with Elves last night let us get to know them better and add to the
> story development?

That's a big question, isn't it ;-)

Before I start: I think this is one of the really great things about this
project - that we get to follow the characters step by step and discuss
their characterisation and development :-)

For most of the characters I think we're still in the process of defining
their initial character; Frodo shows his quality by being the one to take
the threat of the Black Riders (as the Hobbits still think of them) the
most seriously, while Pippin still hopes for a chance to taste the best
beer in Eastfarthing.

Sam, however, appears to have found some kind of clarification in his
conversation with the Elves. So much that, "Frodo looked at Sam rather
startled, half expecting to see some outward sign of the odd change that
seemed to have come over him. It did not sound like the voice of the old
Sam Gamgee that he thought he knew. But it looked like the old Sam Gamgee
sitting there, except that his face was unusually thoughtful."

The Elves' urgings to Sam to stay with Frodo, and the sense of purpose he
finds in his feeling that he has "something to do before the end" seems to
have affected a new determination in Sam, which has made him think a bit
deeper.

> Am I imagining it, or is there quite a bit of development of Pippin in
> this chapter?

I'm afraid I don't really see it. He has long since learned not to fear
Farmer Maggot and his dogs (and we do see how the dogs completely ignore
Pippin) to whom he has been introduced by Merry. Apart from the episode
there, he still seems the least thoughtful of the Hobbits.

Pippin's development is, IMO, quite slow in the beginning. Of course they
all learn quite a lot en route to Rivendell, but I don't think Pippin
really starts to show his meddle until book three (meaning the first part
of Two Towers).

> -- Who was right about the route, Pippin or Frodo?

Under the circumstances? Frodo, without any doubt.
Had they gone by way of the /Golden Perch/ they would have been caught,
IMO, and the book would have been quite a lot shorter (and far darker).

> --the difference between the buildings of the Marish and Hobbiton;

I think this is explained (at least to my satisfaction) in the prologue.
Additionally the Marish doesn't appear to offer many hills appropriate for
proper Hobbit holes, so it would be natural if the inhabitants there were
among the first to forego of that luxury. They also wear boots, IIRC.

> --Stoors vs. Harfoots vs. Fallohides (this was pretty thoroughly
> discussed earlier, but I think it really gives us more of a sense of
> depth and contrast here, more tension (supplemented by Sam's
> xenophobia), and a better sense of the reality of the Shire, than if
> Maggot, Frodo, Pippin and Sam were just generic "hobbits");

Agreed. The discussion in the Prologue gives us a basis for understanding
these differences, and the description in this chapter (and in the other
'Shire' chapters) exemplify the differences in daily Hobbit life.

> --what would a farm of those days tend to be like?

I a place like the Marish I imagine it would depend on the groundwater
level. Hobbits would, IMO, be likely to build as low as possible while
still keeping the floors dry. The descriptions of the architecture of
Middle-earth appear to me to be at least as good as the end of the
medieval age.

> --what sort of "huge" and "wolvish-looking" dogs would a child-sized
> hobbit be likely to own that could also be set on one of the Big People
> and his horse?

Good one. I tend to think of Farmer Maggot's dogs as having the same
relative size to the Hobbits as very big dogs (e.g. Irish wolf dog) has to
me, but they could of course easily be of the same height as the Hobbits
themselves - making Frodo's fright all the more understandable.

I'm not sure it's of any use to speculate as to what specific race - it's
entirely possible, IMO, that Tolkien didn't have any specific race in mind
when describing them, but as I'm no expert on dogs, it might well be that
someone who is can tell the race from the description.

<snip>

> --How many Nazgul were in the Shire at this point? We heard two
> calling in the woods here, but Gildor had told Frodo danger was on all
> four sides, which would indicate at least four.

I can't find the precise number in the UT 4, IV 'The Hunt For the Ring'
(ii). This is the best I can find:

"Therefore he sent some of the Riders into the Shire, with
orders to disperse while traversing it; and of these Khaműl
was to find Hobbiton (see note 1), where "Baggins" lived,
according to Saruman's papers. But the Black Captain
established a camp at Andrath, where the Greenway passed in
a defile between the Barrow-downs and the South Downs; 22
and from there some others were sent to watch and patrol the
eastern borders, while he himself visited the Barrow-downs.
In notes on the movements of the Black Riders at that time it
is said that the Black Captain stayed there for some days,
and the Barrow-wights were roused, and all things of evil
spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, were on the watch with
malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrow-downs."

Has the notes CT mentions here been published elsewhere? Otherwise I'd say
that four Ringwraiths inside the Shire (covering west and north) and four
searching outside (covering east and south) sounds reasonable based on UT.



> --Dark. I'm probably in a minority of one on this, but I don't think
> the tale really starts turning "dark" until this chapter, on the way
> to the Buckleberry Ferry,

The darkening of the tale is, to me, very gradual, and it's hard to tell
where exactly it starts. The implications at the start of I,2 where
Gandalf starts to tell Frodo things about his Ring that "were best left
until daylight" is arguably one of the first signs (if not the rumours of
the Enemy and Mordor that Frodo hears from "strange dwarves of far
countries").

This is another of the subtleties that I like so much about LotR - we're
not thrown directly into the story 'in media res', but we are slowly
introduced to a wider and deeper world than that introduced in the Hobbit.

> JRRT in this work always seems to light up his darkness with stars, his
> evil characters with good ones, his desperate circumstances with hope;

I think the last hits the nail on the head - in Tolkien there is always
hope - there is always a chance of providence.

> how can "The Lord of the Rings" be called dark, then?

I'm not entirely sure that it is really dark. At one of the darker places
(IV, 8 'The Stairs of Cirith Ungol') Sam and Frodo discuss the nature of
great tales and how one may know or guess if it is a happy-ending or a
sad-ending story, but we don't want the people inside the story to know.
The hope that is expressed in LotR as a balance to the desperate
circumstances may make us guess that it's a happy-ending story, which may
disqualify it from being really dark, but to those inside the story it is
indeed very dark at places, and that might qualify it as being dark.

I guess that what I am trying to say is that the hope and the light in the
story is there as a pattern for the reader to find, not as a hope the
characters discover and start relying on.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk

They both savoured the strange warm glow of being much more
ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of
ordinary things.
-- Discworld scientists at work (Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites)

Christopher Kreuzer

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Feb 9, 2004, 6:27:24 PM2/9/04
to
AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:54:05 -0600,
> Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>> -- Someone asked this in "The Prologue" discussion, too: who loves
>> Farmer Maggot? I do! Some Maggot-related topics:
>
> I do. There are hints about him that make him a perceptive character.
> Obviously, if Bombadil knows him, then Maggot may very well be one of
> the more travelled Hobbits, as queer as certain Bagginses for
> consorting with odd characters.

For some unknown reason, I've always thought of Famer Maggot as being
more like a Man than a Hobbit. I guess it is the authority and
competence he exudes that made him 'tower' over the hobbits in my mind.
That and the dogs of course.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard


Aris Katsaris

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Feb 9, 2004, 8:24:30 PM2/9/04
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:wHUVb.701$QK3.6...@news-text.cableinet.net...

As a sidenote (reminded to me because of the reference to the dogs) --
is the hobbit with the dog in the FOTR movie which cowers before the
Black Rider, supposed to be Farmer Maggot? Does anyone know if
he's the same actor who offers the voice for the later scene where the
hobbits run away from Farmer Maggot?

Sorry for the filmic intrusion, btw... :-)

Aris Katsaris


Henriette

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Feb 10, 2004, 6:37:00 AM2/10/04
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AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:<slrnc2g2qg.1b4....@namibia.tandem>...

>
> I get the impression that Shire mushrooms may have grown differently than
> most mushrooms

So do I. IMO it is really suggested they grow in open air.

Henriette

Henriette

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Feb 10, 2004, 7:05:21 AM2/10/04
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Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message news:<fshf20tptoauutm1k...@4ax.com>...

Thank you Belba, well done and good summary!

> -- Someone asked this in "The Prologue" discussion, too: who loves
> Farmer Maggot?

I like him. He is brave and hospitable.


>
> --mushroom farms. This is extremely minor and picky, I agree,
> but coincidentally I grew up in an area where there were both
> traditional farms and mushroom farms. The mushrooms were farmed in a
> big, long and windowless building that was kept dark inside, while the

Is it true mushrooms are no longer grown in earth (but on some
artificial stuff?)


>
> --How many Nazgul were in the Shire at this point? We heard two

> calling in the woods here, (snip)

"There were words in that cry, though I could not catch them". The
language of Mordor? I always find that part fascinating and scary.


>
> --Dark. I'm probably in a minority of one on this, but I don't think
> the tale really starts turning "dark" until this chapter, on the way
> to the Buckleberry Ferry, and then only as something for Frodo and Sam
> to struggle to overcome. I hope this isn't a rant, but JRRT in this
> work always seems to light up his darkness with stars, his evil
> characters with good ones, his desperate circumstances with hope; how

> can "The Lord of the Rings" be called dark, then? (snip rest of "rant")

I really like what you write about Darkness. You have a nice idea and
good arguments. Nevertheless, I do not agree. I agree with what Troels
F. writes on the subject in this thread(i.e. the darkness grows very
gradually from the beginning of the book, and always (at least the
tiniest ray of) hope remains).

Something else: I was surprised about the expression "deep dike" in
this chapter. I thought a dike was what we Dutch call a "dijk", so a
sort of wall to protect us from the water. But after reading "deep
dike" I looked the word up and my dictionary says apart from "dijk" it
can also mean "gracht", so a canal..... Funny language, English!

Henriette

Jens Kilian

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Feb 10, 2004, 7:06:53 AM2/10/04
to
Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> writes:
> [...] Relieved, Farmer Maggot hands the

> three hobbits over to Merry and gives Frodo a dish of cooked mushrooms
> Mrs. Maggot put up for him, [...]

IMHO, it was a basket of raw mushrooms. If it had been a cooked dish, it
would be better to transport it in a pot or some other leakproof, tightly
closed container.

> --mushroom farms.

Nothing is said about Farmer Maggot growing mushrooms commercially (although
given the Hobbits' greed for them, that might have been good business).
I always assumed that the Hobbits were still picking mushrooms in the woods,
in autumn. (Note that the journey takes place during mushroom season.)

Bye,
Jens.
--
mailto:j...@acm.org phone:+49-7031-464-7698 (TELNET 778-7698)
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ fax:+49-7031-464-7351
As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]

Graeme

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Feb 10, 2004, 10:37:59 AM2/10/04
to
>>He welcomes both Pippin and Frodo, though he remembers the time when Frodo
was "one of the worst young rascals of Buckland," and tells them that a Black
Rider has visited him before the hobbits arrived and offered gold for news of
"Baggins."
>>

What do you make of that offer? Did the Nazgul actually pack petty cash?


>>Farmer Maggot and Sam get down to "send this rider to the rightabouts!" while
Frodo remains hidden in the wagon with Pippin.
>>

Would the Nazgul even have *recognized* Frodo if he'd been driving the wagon,
waggling his toes, and claiming he was Mr. Proudfeet? They seem able to tell
when the Ring is in the general vicinity but not able to tell when they're
getting hotter or colder.


>>-- Who was right about the route, Pippin or Frodo?
>>

Probably Frodo. The Nazgul would likely have attacked any Hobbit found in the
Woody End on the general principle that no one except the ones they were
looking for would be in such a deserted area. The end of the chapter is
different. I still think Frodo could have been driving the wagon himself and
spoken to any Nazgul safely, as long as he didn't give himself away.


> --not part of this chapter, but what role does Farmer Maggot play
>in "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" (it's been a long time since I
>read that)?

Apparently they visited each other. Or rather Maggot visited Tom, more likely.
How they met is anybody's guess. Perhaps a hunting trip by Maggot gone
horribly wrong.


>--How many Nazgul were in the Shire at this point? We heard two
>calling in the woods here, but Gildor had told Frodo danger was on all
>four sides, which would indicate at least four.

Not that he really knew. Potential danger was on all four sides even if only
one Nazgul was in the area.


Jette Goldie

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Feb 10, 2004, 11:05:22 AM2/10/04
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"AC" <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:slrnc2g2qg.1b4....@namibia.tandem...


As a teen, I stayed one holiday in the West Country in a lovely
little cottage belonging to a farm.

We got up one damp morning and looked out at the farmer's
field - it was lying fallow and this morning it was COVERED
in mushrooms. All sizes, from teeny buttons to huge dinner
plate sized ones. For several days the field was full of
mushrooms and the farmer told us to help ourselves - we
had mushrooms for breakfast, for dinner, in the stew,
mushroom soup, mum made mushroom ketchup - mushroom
everything. Delicious - and we never got tired of them.


--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/


Jette Goldie

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Feb 10, 2004, 11:29:05 AM2/10/04
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"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote

> Is it true mushrooms are no longer grown in earth (but on some
> artificial stuff?)


True - a sterilised artificial compound, that looks something
like polystyrene beads. Full of the "nutrients" that the
mushrooms need, but they just don't get the same flavour
anymore :-(

Jette Goldie

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Feb 10, 2004, 11:29:05 AM2/10/04
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"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.dk> wrote

> Pippin's development is, IMO, quite slow in the beginning. Of course they
> all learn quite a lot en route to Rivendell, but I don't think Pippin
> really starts to show his meddle until book three (meaning the first part
> of Two Towers).

Not a nitpick, Troels - but I think you meant Pippin's "mettle"

Troels Forchhammer

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Feb 10, 2004, 12:35:00 PM2/10/04
to
Jette Goldie wrote:
>

<snip>

> Not a nitpick, Troels - but I think you meant Pippin's "mettle"

Don't worry - I don't mind your meddling ;-)
Thanks!

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk

"Lo! we have gathered, and we have spent, and now the time of
payment draws near."
- Aragorn Son of Arathorn, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)

aelfwina

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Feb 10, 2004, 12:54:27 PM2/10/04
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"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote in message
news:6j7Wb.1120$XL2.10...@news-text.cableinet.net...

>
> "AC" <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:slrnc2g2qg.1b4....@namibia.tandem...
> > On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:54:05 -0600,
> > Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
> > > -- Someone asked this in "The Prologue" discussion, too: who loves
> > > Farmer Maggot? I do! Some Maggot-related topics:

I've always been pretty fond of the character myself, and especially the
hints we get about him from Tom Bombadil.

(snipped stuff)

> As a teen, I stayed one holiday in the West Country in a lovely
> little cottage belonging to a farm.
>
> We got up one damp morning and looked out at the farmer's
> field - it was lying fallow and this morning it was COVERED
> in mushrooms. All sizes, from teeny buttons to huge dinner
> plate sized ones. For several days the field was full of
> mushrooms and the farmer told us to help ourselves - we
> had mushrooms for breakfast, for dinner, in the stew,
> mushroom soup, mum made mushroom ketchup - mushroom
> everything. Delicious - and we never got tired of them.

Oh, that sounds lovely! It's amazing how they pop up so quickly and so
large, but I've never seen anything like that!
Yummm....
(Maybe mushrooms and bacon for supper one night this week...I have a great
recipe.)
Barbara

Joe

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Feb 10, 2004, 4:06:13 PM2/10/04
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>
> -- As mentioned in the discussion of Chapter 3, Pippin is starting to
> develop as a character (and has a way to go, from seeming airhead to
> eventual combat veteran of Gondor, quick to threaten a Big People thug
> and his buddies in the Shire). Am I imagining it, or is there quite a
> bit of development of Pippin in this chapter?
>

People with map-sense and knowledge of geography always impress me. This
helps establish he's no lout.


> -- Who was right about the route, Pippin or Frodo?
>

Frodo's stealth (preternatural, influenced by Ring sense?) was obviously
right-the Riders knew where they were headed and assumed a road ambush was
the best bet.

> -- Someone asked this in "The Prologue" discussion, too: who loves
> Farmer Maggot? I do! Some Maggot-related topics:
> --the difference between the buildings of the Marish and
> Hobbiton;

No hobbit holes in the Marish. They had to build above ground. (I think
this is covered in the preface). Shows they were willing to forego the
preference for holes to enjoy that area's superior agricultural potential.


> In that same paragraph with the stars we
> first learn of the presence of a Nazgul. On the way across the Shire
> there are Nazgul, but there are also Elves. That's all external
> stuff, really, in that even Frodo doesn't understand it very well.
> But now, as the actual departure is approaching, the hobbits are truly
> enveloped in dark with no Elves about and only their own resources to
> depend on. Farmer Maggot takes them as far as he can but then has to
> leave them in dark (the nearest lights are a couple of lamps by the
> water's edge a hundred yards away, as we'll see in the next chapter).
> No more high matters for Frodo now -- he's got to start off on his
> own, in the dark, after leaving the lights of friends and relatives
> behind for good. I wonder if it could be said that the rest of the
> story is just a struggle for him and Sam to find the light that will
> balance their individual ways through the dark.


A strong allusion perhaps the Darkness and Light of Silmarillion.


Michelle J. Haines

unread,
Feb 10, 2004, 4:13:38 PM2/10/04
to
In article <fshf20tptoauutm1k...@4ax.com>,
ba...@dbtech.net says...

>
> --what sort of "huge" and "wolvish-looking" dogs would a
> child-sized hobbit be likely to own that could also be set on one of
> the Big People and his horse?

Do you have any familiarity with Livestock Guard Dogs? Big, big
dogs. Great Pyrenees are one variety that people are most often
familiar with.

The average male LGD is 31-32" in the shoulder, so would easily look
the average, 3 1/2 foot tall hobbit in the face. Body proportions
being what they are, though, the average LGS is going to outweigh a
hobbit by a tremendous amount.

However, I've always imagined hobbits breeding smaller livestock
overall -- smaller goat breeds, Icelandic sheep, Scottish Highland
cattle, and the like -- so I don't know if they'd also be keeping
full-sized LGD type dogs. OTOH, if the predators are full-sized and
the stock are not, you may want to.

Michelle
Flutist
--
Drift on a river, That flows through my arms
Drift as I'm singing to you
I see you smiling, So peaceful and calm
And holding you, I'm smiling, too
Here in my arms, Safe from all harm
Holding you, I'm smiling, too
-- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99]

Raven

unread,
Feb 10, 2004, 7:24:23 PM2/10/04
to
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> skrev i en meddelelse
news:20040210103759...@mb-m02.aol.com...

> I still think Frodo could have been driving the wagon himself and
> spoken to any Nazgul safely, as long as he didn't give himself away.

Not necessarily. The Nazgūl could sense the Ring, though imperfectly.
In the wilderness more acutely, probably, than in an inhabited land. Or
perhaps it was the presence of the Witch-king near Weathertop which caused
the Ring to draw the Nazgūl from a rather greater distance than it failed to
draw Khamul at Bag End. But if they clap their unseen eyes on the chap who
is actually bearing the Ring they might know it. And at any rate Frodo felt
*their* presence. He was tempted to put the Ring on. This altered state of
mind might show in his countenance, and the Nazgūl might sense that.

Marghvran.


Raven

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Feb 10, 2004, 7:23:41 PM2/10/04
to
"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:lF7Wb.1130$oX2.10...@news-text.cableinet.net...

> "Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.dk> wrote

> > but I don't think Pippin really starts to show his meddle until book
> > three

> Not a nitpick, Troels - but I think you meant Pippin's "mettle"

Both words would be appropriate.

Brân.


Jette Goldie

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Feb 11, 2004, 6:15:13 AM2/11/04
to

"Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message
news:GZeWb.6453$GH1....@news.get2net.dk...

Meddle is a verb, not a noun or an adjective. "To meddle" is
to interfere with something. NOT appropriate in this instance.

Raven

unread,
Feb 11, 2004, 4:05:38 PM2/11/04
to
"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:59oWb.1825$ZM2.16...@news-text.cableinet.net...

> Meddle is a verb, not a noun or an adjective. "To meddle" is
> to interfere with something. NOT appropriate in this instance.

Your language is sufficiently versatile to accomodate a verb in the place
of a noun in a sentence. "This is Pippin's meddle" would be a somewhat
jarring grammar, since a participle ("meddling") would be preferred, but it
would retain its meaning - perhaps be accepted as a noun derived from the
verb. This is the versatility of a language that expects a verb in *this*
position and a noun in *that* one... my own language would be rather less
accomodating to this construction.

Corbie.


Jette Goldie

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Feb 11, 2004, 6:13:45 PM2/11/04
to

"Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message
news:TbyWb.5596$Dc3...@news.get2net.dk...


yeah, I know that you *could* put a verb in that position but
trust me in *this* instance, it isn't. I speak English real dead
good for a Northern Barbarian. ;-)

TeaLady (Mari C.)

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Feb 11, 2004, 9:05:11 PM2/11/04
to
"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote in
news:JGyWb.2400$PF.23...@news-text.cableinet.net:

>
> "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam>
> wrote in message news:TbyWb.5596$Dc3...@news.get2net.dk...
>> "Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> skrev i en
>> meddelelse
>> news:59oWb.1825$ZM2.16...@news-text.cableinet.net...
>>
>> > Meddle is a verb, not a noun or an adjective. "To
>> > meddle" is to interfere with something. NOT appropriate
>> > in this instance.
>>
>> Your language is sufficiently versatile to accomodate a
>> verb in the place
>> of a noun in a sentence. "This is Pippin's meddle" would
>> be a somewhat jarring grammar, since a participle
>> ("meddling") would be preferred, but it would retain its
>> meaning - perhaps be accepted as a noun derived from the
>> verb. This is the versatility of a language that expects a
>> verb in *this* position and a noun in *that* one... my own
>> language would be rather less accomodating to this
>> construction.
>
>
> yeah, I know that you *could* put a verb in that position
> but trust me in *this* instance, it isn't. I speak English
> real dead good for a Northern Barbarian. ;-)
>
>

Would work in the US - probably has, somewheres. But then we
are far more lenient in usage than those over the pond.

--
mc

The Sidhekin

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Feb 11, 2004, 4:22:46 PM2/11/04
to
Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> writes:

> Chapter-of-the-Week discussion series. The chapter is "A Short Cut To
> Mushrooms."

> They follow the stream for a while until Pippin realizes it's the
> Stock-brook [...]

"Your" brook? :)

> Their happy mood is shattered by the fell sound of two
> Nazgul calling in the distance, and the hobbits, sobered, get up and
> start off once more, hoping to reach the Ferry before dark.

Ah -- hindsight. The cries were not identified as made by the
riders, nor are the riders yet identified as Nazgul. In fact, the
Nazgul are not yet so named -- though Gandalf did mention them, he
named them Ringwraiths.

The cries were unidentified as yet, and more terrifying for that.


> -- How do the individual reactions of the hobbits to their encounter
> with Elves last night let us get to know them better and add to the
> story development?

The first time I read it, I remember being a little surprised that
Pippin showed no signs of even thinking about the Elves. But then,
they had been up for a while before Frodo. He may well have processed
it by the time we see him. (Or possibly our conspirator does not want
to show what he is thinking about it.)

To Sam, it is another step on his appointed way. To Frodo, it is no
more than he expected. But we do not see Pippin's reaction.

> -- As mentioned in the discussion of Chapter 3, Pippin is starting to
> develop as a character (and has a way to go, from seeming airhead to
> eventual combat veteran of Gondor, quick to threaten a Big People thug
> and his buddies in the Shire). Am I imagining it, or is there quite a
> bit of development of Pippin in this chapter?

I would say that Pippin _emerges_ rather than develops. I am not
sure there is a lot more in this chapter -- it just confirms the
impression we already were given of him: He is well travelled, and he
knows all the important people all over -- unlike Sam, who knows but
the local people and the local geography.

And of course, in hindsight: Though Pippin might guess something of
the trouble, he does not _show_ his reaction. The conspiracy has yet
to be unmasked. At which point even more of Pippin emerges.

"Seeming airhead" is not really fair. Pippin is probably better
educated than most Hobbits. Comparing him to Bilbo, Frodo, and Merry
just misses the point -- those three are the unusual ones.

Pippin is intelligent, though he is not, and never will be, wise,
nor any sort of scholar. He is a trusted member of the conspiracy,
and does not do anything foolish to give Frodo a reason to suspect it.
He is courageous from the start. In fact, it may be that he is too
brave. One of the things he must learn is to be careful -- though we
do not really see him learn it, do we?

He is a remarkable character from the outset, though he plays no
important part except that Orc/Fangorn/Palantir sequence -- and he
remains remarkable. Of all the Hobbits he seems to me the one who
develops the least from his emergence to the end of the story. Which
in itself is remarkable, given that he is the youngest.

Oh, the princeling will learn to endure hardships. He will learn to
command others' respect, and perhaps even a little of patience. But
if he grows in wisdom in any way, it is in his appreciation of others'
values, and if he is any more careful at the end of the book than in
the beginning, I never noticed.

Hey, even after having faced Sauron, he wished for a Palantir.
Careful? The Took? Hah!


> -- Who was right about the route, Pippin or Frodo?

Both. As Frodo correctly commented.


> -- Someone asked this in "The Prologue" discussion, too: who loves
> Farmer Maggot? I do!

My most Maggot-endearing moment:

"You should never have gone mixing yourself up with Hobbiton folk,
Mr. Frodo. Folk are queer up there."

Actually, I just love how Tolkien uses Maggot. This is Sam's first
glimpse of himself in the eyes of another, unless you count the Elves'
"Hobbits are so dull". ;-)

But yes, Maggot is quite a lovable character in his own right.


Another very human moment Tolkien captures: After Maggot has
promised to "deal with" "any of these black fellows", and to "drive
you all to the ferry", which "might also save you trouble of another
sort", Mrs. Maggot still finds she has to admonish him:

"Don't go arguing with any foreigners!"

Tolkien told us Hobbits are of Human race, but even had he not, it
would be obvious that Mrs. Maggot was.


-SK-
--
perl -e 'print "Just another Perl ${\(trickster and hacker)},";'

The Sidhekin *proves* Sidhe did it!

mair fheal doesnt live here anymore

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Feb 12, 2004, 2:18:40 AM2/12/04
to
"TeaLady (Mari C.)" <spres...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Xns948CD68...@130.133.1.4>...

usa
keeping shakespearian usage alive

Henriette

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Feb 12, 2004, 5:15:01 AM2/12/04
to
"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote in message news:<6j7Wb.1120$XL2.10...@news-text.cableinet.net>...

>
> As a teen, I stayed one holiday in the West Country in a lovely
> little cottage belonging to a farm.
>
> We got up one damp morning and looked out at the farmer's
> field - it was lying fallow and this morning it was COVERED
> in mushrooms. All sizes, from teeny buttons to huge dinner
> plate sized ones. For several days the field was full of
> mushrooms and the farmer told us to help ourselves - we
> had mushrooms for breakfast, for dinner, in the stew,
> mushroom soup, mum made mushroom ketchup - mushroom
> everything. Delicious - and we never got tired of them.

Some people seem to eat them raw in salads. Do/did you? I haven't
dared to try as yet.

Henriette

Jette Goldie

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Feb 12, 2004, 5:47:55 AM2/12/04
to

"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:be50318e.04021...@posting.google.com...


I have eaten raw mushrooms in salad - clean them well (commercially
grown ones are best for this because you know they grew in hygienic
conditions) and slice them up. They have a kind of "crunchy" texture
that cooked mushrooms don't have.

aelfwina

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Feb 12, 2004, 10:10:14 AM2/12/04
to

"The Sidhekin"
<Sidh...@remove-spam-and-and-and-remove.allverden.nospam.invalid> wrote in
message news:7xu11x5...@laptop.dav...

> I would say that Pippin _emerges_ rather than develops. I am not
> sure there is a lot more in this chapter -- it just confirms the
> impression we already were given of him: He is well travelled, and he
> knows all the important people all over -- unlike Sam, who knows but
> the local people and the local geography.

It's obvious that Pippin has spent a great deal of time in Buckland, but
then he *would* if he and Merry were as inseperable as it seems. I get the
impression that in their childhoods they probably took turns spending
extended visits with one another, as well as probably visits to Bag End,
especially once Frodo was left on his own.


>
> And of course, in hindsight: Though Pippin might guess something of
> the trouble, he does not _show_ his reaction. The conspiracy has yet
> to be unmasked. At which point even more of Pippin emerges.

Yes. You wouldn't really think he could keep a secret, would you? And you'd
be wrong.

> "Seeming airhead" is not really fair. Pippin is probably better
> educated than most Hobbits. Comparing him to Bilbo, Frodo, and Merry
> just misses the point -- those three are the unusual ones.

I never thought of Pippin as an "airhead" either. He would have had to be
quite bright to hold his own among companions so much older. I think
though, we must not lose sight of the fact that he is so *young*, which may
account for some of his antics. I also get the feeling that Frodo and Merry
must have spoiled him shamelessly when he was little.

>
> Pippin is intelligent, though he is not, and never will be, wise,
> nor any sort of scholar. He is a trusted member of the conspiracy,
> and does not do anything foolish to give Frodo a reason to suspect it.
> He is courageous from the start. In fact, it may be that he is too
> brave. One of the things he must learn is to be careful -- though we
> do not really see him learn it, do we?

No, he's a Took, through and through, and "carefulness" was never a Tookish
trait, was it?


>
> He is a remarkable character from the outset, though he plays no
> important part except that Orc/Fangorn/Palantir sequence -- and he
> remains remarkable.

Yet the Orc/Fangorn/Palantir sequence is essential to the story. He showed
remarkable initiative there, as well as foolishness. But don't forget his
part in saving Faramir--that, too was important.
Also, remember that when Gandalf was persuading Elrond to let Pippin go, he
had a foresight that both Pippin and Merry would play crucial roles
somewhere along the line. If you think that dropping the stone down the
well brought on the Orc/Balrog attack in Moria, then Pippin was responsible
for seperating Gandalf from the Nine, which enabled him to be resurrected as
Gandalf the White!

Of all the Hobbits he seems to me the one who
> develops the least from his emergence to the end of the story. Which
> in itself is remarkable, given that he is the youngest.
>
> Oh, the princeling will learn to endure hardships. He will learn to
> command others' respect, and perhaps even a little of patience. But
> if he grows in wisdom in any way, it is in his appreciation of others'
> values, and if he is any more careful at the end of the book than in
> the beginning, I never noticed.

He learned to appreciate *others* and to be a fairly good judge of
character, even of those who were of unfamiliar race. He left as a child,
and came home an adult, even though he still had a few years left to his
majority. (Imagine how that must have galled the small Knight of Gondor!)
When they left, Frodo and Merry were still his protectors in a sense, when
they came back, he was ready to protect Frodo. ("Cock-a-whoop, indeed!)

>
> Hey, even after having faced Sauron, he wished for a Palantir.
> Careful? The Took? Hah!

If he'd been *careful* he'd never have allowed a Troll to land on him. 8-)
Pippin emerged as a favorite character for me in my last re-reading. I
really find the interactions of the three cousins fascinating. I wonder how
common this type of intergenerational family bonding was among Hobbits?
Barbara

Igenlode Wordsmith

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Feb 11, 2004, 6:24:23 PM2/11/04
to
On 9 Feb 2004 Belba Grubb from Stock wrote:

[snip]


> I grew up in an area where there were both traditional farms and
> mushroom farms. The mushrooms were farmed in a big, long and
> windowless building that was kept dark inside, while the traditional
> farms, of course, had open fields. Was young Frodo guilty of
> breaking and entering, as well as raiding the farmer's mushroom
> fields, or are there other ways to farm mushrooms?

Maggot was not a mushroom farmer (I very much doubt that anybody
'farmed' mushrooms commercially in the Shire, although given the racial
/penchant/ for the product it's possible someone did so!)

We are talking about *field* mushrooms, which grow of their own accord in
meadows and grazing land - in English, fungi are traditionally divided
into 'mushrooms' (/Agaricus campestris/, which once appeared in vast
profusion in fields worked or grazed by horses) and 'toadstools'
(everything else, e.g. puffballs, death-caps, inkhorns, bracket
fungus...)

The only field we hear about is a field of turnips, but it would almost
certainly have been what is nowadays known as a 'mixed' farm, but was
the pre-war norm. A small herd of cows and a bull, some pigs, a flock of
ducks on the pond and/or hens in the orchard, plus fields of corn (or
perhaps rye or oats, if the Marish was as damp as it sounds!), meadows
for hay and grazing, plus fields of cabbages and root crops. Probably a
garden with flowers and a beehive, lettuces and radishes, herbs and other
simples for culinary and medicinal use, and some soft fruit.

One crop that would *not* have been present (Peter Jackson take note!)
is American maize. Nor would the Maggots have farmed oil-seed rape.
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed

The world owes you nothing. It was here first.

Odysseus

unread,
Feb 12, 2004, 12:43:32 PM2/12/04
to
Jette Goldie wrote:
>
> I have eaten raw mushrooms in salad - clean them well (commercially
> grown ones are best for this because you know they grew in hygienic
> conditions) and slice them up. They have a kind of "crunchy" texture
> that cooked mushrooms don't have.
>
They're great for dipping, too, in the same sort of sauce one might
serve with celery & carrot sticks &c.: e.g. sour cream seasoned with
curry & mustard powder. But I've never met a mushroom I didn't like,
no matter how it was prepared.

--
Odysseus

Michelle J. Haines

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Feb 12, 2004, 12:48:52 PM2/12/04
to
In article <200402121646...@gacracker.org>, Use-Author-
Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1] says...

>
> One crop that would *not* have been present (Peter Jackson take note!)
> is American maize. Nor would the Maggots have farmed oil-seed rape.

Since potatoes appear in Tolkien's original work, PJ putting in corn
is probably a forgivable gaffe. :)

Igenlode Wordsmith

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Feb 11, 2004, 6:52:45 PM2/11/04
to
On 10 Feb 2004 Henriette wrote:

> Something else: I was surprised about the expression "deep dike" in
> this chapter. I thought a dike was what we Dutch call a "dijk", so a
> sort of wall to protect us from the water. But after reading "deep
> dike" I looked the word up and my dictionary says apart from "dijk" it
> can also mean "gracht", so a canal..... Funny language, English!
>

A dyke or dike is a drainage ditch. In the Fens or on Romney Marsh it
could be as wide as a canal and carry a considerable flow; more commonly,
as in this case, it would be merely a muddy trench with a trickle of
water at the bottom.

However, as you point out, oddly enough it can also refer to an
embankment of earth. I suspect this originally referred to the mound
created by throwing the earth out of the ditch!


--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed

-I never shot anybody before... -This is one hell of a time to tell me!

Raven

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Feb 12, 2004, 3:30:54 PM2/12/04
to
"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:JGyWb.2400$PF.23...@news-text.cableinet.net...

> yeah, I know that you *could* put a verb in that position but
> trust me in *this* instance, it isn't. I speak English real dead
> good for a Northern Barbarian. ;-)

English isn't a monolithic language, spoken by a rather small number of
people who agree on what its rules are. It is a world language. Your
language has spread around the world to be spoken by many peoples. This may
give you cause for pride, and it also means that you can speak in your
native language with a myriad of foreigners. I cannot. The downside of
this is that you no longer have sole ownership of it.
Nyah nyah nyah.

Corbie.


loisillon

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Feb 12, 2004, 5:52:15 PM2/12/04
to
"aelfwina" <aelf...@cableone.net> wrote in message news:<102n5qo...@corp.supernews.com>...

tchak


> >
> > Hey, even after having faced Sauron, he wished for a Palantir.
> > Careful? The Took? Hah!

Sauron exerts through Palantir a true abduction of the spirit on
anybody who looked at it. As the ring does it on anybody. No relation
with intelligence.

The Sidhekin

unread,
Feb 12, 2004, 5:21:51 PM2/12/04
to
"aelfwina" <aelf...@cableone.net> writes:

> "The Sidhekin" wrote in


> message news:7xu11x5...@laptop.dav...
>
> > I would say that Pippin _emerges_ rather than develops. I am not
> > sure there is a lot more in this chapter -- it just confirms the
> > impression we already were given of him: He is well travelled, and he
> > knows all the important people all over -- unlike Sam, who knows but
> > the local people and the local geography.
>
> It's obvious that Pippin has spent a great deal of time in Buckland, but
> then he *would* if he and Merry were as inseperable as it seems. I get the
> impression that in their childhoods they probably took turns spending
> extended visits with one another, as well as probably visits to Bag End,
> especially once Frodo was left on his own.

He knows Buckland, Hobbiton, and of course Tookland. But he also
knows the Marish. As far as we can tell, there is no place in the
Shire he is not familiar with. Indeed, he seems to know the whole of
the East Farthing, or at least its inns, to be able to pronounce the
beer of the Golden Perch at Stock its best. :-)

Though _we_ do not get to see the North and South Farthings, my
impression remains that Pippin would be familiar with those as well.
And why not? As the future head of the most important family in the
Shire, he probably knows everyone who would like to think himself or
herself of significant importance.


> > "Seeming airhead" is not really fair. Pippin is probably better
> > educated than most Hobbits. Comparing him to Bilbo, Frodo, and Merry
> > just misses the point -- those three are the unusual ones.
>
> I never thought of Pippin as an "airhead" either. He would have had to be
> quite bright to hold his own among companions so much older. I think
> though, we must not lose sight of the fact that he is so *young*, which may
> account for some of his antics. I also get the feeling that Frodo and Merry
> must have spoiled him shamelessly when he was little.

Frodo and Merry? Well, probably. I just never thought of that. I
imagine that the Tooks did a good job spoiling him all on their own.
Not to mention all the birthday parties he would have been invited to,
all over the Shire.


> > He is a remarkable character from the outset, though he plays no
> > important part except that Orc/Fangorn/Palantir sequence -- and he
> > remains remarkable.
>
> Yet the Orc/Fangorn/Palantir sequence is essential to the story. He showed
> remarkable initiative there, as well as foolishness. But don't forget his
> part in saving Faramir--that, too was important.

Yes, but that part was rather a single moment, and not essentially
Pippin -- anyone could have filled his role there, and the story would
not have been significantly different for it. You might as well say
that dropping that stone in Moria was important. :-)

And I did not mean to belittle the O/F/P sequence. I just meant to
point out that except for that connected sequence, which after all is
but a fraction of the book, Pippin takes a supporting role.

Merry is the organizer of the conspiracy, handling logistics and
leading them through the first trek out of the Shire. He assumes
something of a solo role through the Rohirrim/Pelennor/Houses of
Healing sequence. And in the Scouring, he is yet again a leader.

And of course Frodo and Sam play even more important parts and real
solos. But Pippin has just that one, if important, sequence, before
he falls back again to a more anonymous, observer role, the ignorant
who needs to be reminded that Strider may claim the throne, and the
guy who makes every suggestion that needs to be shot down, like from
the Scouring:

'[...] We ought to think of taking cover for the night. [...]'
[...]
'No!' said Merry. 'It's no good "getting under cover". [...] No,
we have to do something at once.'

(It's a pity Pippin was not present in the Council of Elrond. Then
someone would have told us exactly why using Eagles was a bad idea.)

Saving Faramir and killing the troll are great works, yes, but those
are moments. Pippin's overall role is quite another.

Henriette

unread,
Feb 14, 2004, 5:58:36 AM2/14/04
to
Igenlode Wordsmith <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message news:<2004021219593...@gacracker.org>...

> A dyke or dike is a drainage ditch. In the Fens or on Romney Marsh it
> could be as wide as a canal and carry a considerable flow; more commonly,
> as in this case, it would be merely a muddy trench with a trickle of
> water at the bottom.
>
> However, as you point out, oddly enough it can also refer to an
> embankment of earth. I suspect this originally referred to the mound
> created by throwing the earth out of the ditch!

As someone pointed out in a post to my e-mailaddress, this is the same
in Middle Dutch because IIRC dike/dijk/dijc has a common root in Latin
trigere. Trigere-dijk? Funny. Nevertheless, in Dutch it is nolonger
used in the sense of pool/canal/pond/drainage ditch.

As for posts to my e-mailaddress, usually I don't reply to those. I
would like to keep the discussion central and my RSI may be somewhat
better, but the less time I spend behind my PC the better I will get.

Henriette

Henriette

unread,
Feb 14, 2004, 6:09:47 AM2/14/04
to
"Aris Katsaris" <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote in message news:<c09cae$8kr$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>...

> As a sidenote (reminded to me because of the reference to the dogs) --
> is the hobbit with the dog in the FOTR movie which cowers before the
> Black Rider, supposed to be Farmer Maggot? Does anyone know if
> he's the same actor who offers the voice for the later scene where the
> hobbits run away from Farmer Maggot?
>
> Sorry for the filmic intrusion, btw... :-)
>
Actually, we Chapter-of-the-Week discussers don't watch the film. I
(accidently) happened to see it once though, and I vaguely remember a
cowering man with a dog. I was under the impression PJ was thinking of
Farmer Maggot here, who ofcourse would not have cowered or have had a
dog on a leash. I clearly remember mushrooms though, in open air and
not cultivated, but growing wild, which, IIRC, is in accord with what
Igenlode Wordsmith argues in this thread (that farmer Maggot did not
have cultivated fields of mushrooms).

Henriette

Henriette

unread,
Feb 14, 2004, 6:13:15 AM2/14/04
to
"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote in message news:<vRIWb.2607$jo5.25...@news-text.cableinet.net>...

>
> I have eaten raw mushrooms in salad - clean them well (commercially
> grown ones are best for this because you know they grew in hygienic
> conditions) and slice them up. They have a kind of "crunchy" texture
> that cooked mushrooms don't have.

Thank you and Odysseus for the ideas. I may try them raw one day, but
I can't say I am looking forward to it....

Henriette

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Feb 14, 2004, 8:22:53 AM2/14/04
to
Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Actually, we Chapter-of-the-Week discussers don't watch the film.

<gasp in mock horror>

How can you discuss the book without seeing the film??
That's like discussing the film without reading the book!!

<eg>


Een Wilde Ier

unread,
Feb 14, 2004, 2:57:33 PM2/14/04
to
Henriette wrote:

> "Aris Katsaris" <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote in message news:<c09cae$8kr$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>...
>
>
>>As a sidenote (reminded to me because of the reference to the dogs) --
>>is the hobbit with the dog in the FOTR movie which cowers before the
>>Black Rider, supposed to be Farmer Maggot? Does anyone know if
>>he's the same actor who offers the voice for the later scene where the
>>hobbits run away from Farmer Maggot?
>>
>>Sorry for the filmic intrusion, btw... :-)
>>
>
> Actually, we Chapter-of-the-Week discussers don't watch the film. I
> (accidently) happened to see it once though

A likely story!

Henriette

unread,
Feb 15, 2004, 5:49:28 AM2/15/04
to
Een Wilde Ier <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<c0luj0$17v4qh$2...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> Henriette wrote:

> > Actually, we Chapter-of-the-Week discussers don't watch the film. I
> > (accidently) happened to see it once though
>
> A likely story!

Tsk tsk tsk! (With melodious hurt voice)Suspicious are we? (Voice
changes with a shrill undertone) When exactly was it again that you
started several (shudders) *filmthreads*? I will soon post evidence!

Brünhilde

Een Wilde Ier

unread,
Feb 15, 2004, 2:12:50 PM2/15/04
to

Ha! I'd like to see your "evidence"!

Henriette

unread,
Feb 16, 2004, 6:47:34 AM2/16/04
to
Een Wilde Ier <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<c0ogbo$1a0pue$1...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> Henriette wrote:
> >
(snip)

> > changes with a shrill undertone) When exactly was it again that you
> > started several (shudders) *filmthreads*? I will soon post evidence!
>
> Ha! I'd like to see your "evidence"!

Here is EVIDENCE of your *inner thoughts*. See and read and tremble
for being *revealed* thus, what you write on Jan. 23rd 2004 in this
very NG:

"Peter Jackson's _Lord of the Rings_; what a great story!

How, in one lifetime, did one man manage to become the creative
equivalent of an entire people?"

Was signed, Een Wilde Ier.

It stands for eterity for all generations of all nations to see how
one Wilde Ier felt about a film that ye average poster here not even
dares NAME. Evidence about the *starting* of (shudders) filmthreads
soon to follow.

Brünhilde

Een Wilde Ier

unread,
Feb 16, 2004, 4:36:08 PM2/16/04
to
Henriette wrote:
> Een Wilde Ier <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<c0ogbo$1a0pue$1...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>
>>Henriette wrote:
>>
> (snip)
>
>>>changes with a shrill undertone) When exactly was it again that you
>>>started several (shudders) *filmthreads*? I will soon post evidence!
>>
>>Ha! I'd like to see your "evidence"!
>
>
> Here is EVIDENCE of your *inner thoughts*. See and read and tremble
> for being *revealed* thus, what you write on Jan. 23rd 2004 in this
> very NG:
>
> "Peter Jackson's _Lord of the Rings_; what a great story!
>
> How, in one lifetime, did one man manage to become the creative
> equivalent of an entire people?"
>
> Was signed, Een Wilde Ier.

In your eagerness to SLANDER my good Tolkien-loving, Peter
Jackson-despising name, Brunette, you have over-reached yourself!

This post was MOCKING the films and their debased supporters and
apologists!

> It stands for eterity for all generations of all nations to see how
> one Wilde Ier felt about a film that ye average poster here not even
> dares NAME. Evidence about the *starting* of (shudders) filmthreads
> soon to follow.

We'll see...

Henriette

unread,
Feb 17, 2004, 11:06:30 AM2/17/04
to
Een Wilde Ier <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<c0rd4f$1arglj$1...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> Henriette wrote:

> > Here is EVIDENCE of your *inner thoughts*. (snip EVIDENCE)

> In your eagerness to SLANDER my good Tolkien-loving, Peter
> Jackson-despising name, Brunette, you have over-reached yourself!
>
> This post was MOCKING the films and their debased supporters and
> apologists!
>

Yes, that is what you pretend when everyone is looking, but in the
small obscure threads you are making *propaganda* for your Dark
Master! Don't believe I can't see through your STRAWMEN and WINDMILLS!

Brünnhilde

Michelle J. Haines

unread,
Feb 18, 2004, 10:00:39 AM2/18/04
to
In article <be50318e.04021...@posting.google.com>,
held...@hotmail.com says...

>
> Actually, we Chapter-of-the-Week discussers don't watch the film.

Speak for yourself, thank you.

Igenlode Wordsmith

unread,
Feb 18, 2004, 3:38:04 PM2/18/04
to
[repost]
On 12 Feb 2004 Michelle J. Haines wrote:

> In article <200402121646...@gacracker.org>, Igenlode says...


> >
> > One crop that would *not* have been present (Peter Jackson take note!)
> > is American maize. Nor would the Maggots have farmed oil-seed rape.
>
> Since potatoes appear in Tolkien's original work, PJ putting in corn
> is probably a forgivable gaffe. :)
>

Not to mention /Nicotiana/ and (originally) tomatoes..! One suspects,
however, that 'baccy' and 'taters' played a rather larger part in the
rural landscape of Tolkien's childhood than did triffid-like stands of
sweetcorn :-)

I'm afraid putting maize into a quasi-mediaeval peasant culture is just
one of those little things that *really* get my goat, for some reason;
'Shrek' and numerous sub-par US fantasy novels have done it as well,
and the remake of '101 Dalmatians' apparently laboured under the
impression that raccoons (or was it lemurs?) run wild in the English
countryside. Perhaps the nearest equivalent, by what I hear, would be
an English author who wrote in lovingly ignorant detail about a
Lousiana girl leaving a bowl of bread-and-milk out at night under the
stoop for the hedgehogs creeping out of the bayou... or the "OK Corral"
film we were discussing recently on another group, featuring that well
known MD, John Holliday!

One can rationalise it away, but the first impression is of the writer
making lazy cross-cultural assumptions. (And given that maize is no
more indigenous - or, presumably, ubiquitous - in New Zealand than it is
here, Jackson really had no excuse for that particular Hollywood
gaffe...)


--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed

-Yes, it hurts. The trick is not *minding* that it hurts.

Neil Cerutti

unread,
Feb 19, 2004, 9:13:50 AM2/19/04
to
In article <2004021903595...@gacracker.org>, Igenlode

Wordsmith wrote:
> One can rationalise it away, but the first impression is of the
> writer making lazy cross-cultural assumptions. (And given that
> maize is no more indigenous - or, presumably, ubiquitous - in
> New Zealand than it is here, Jackson really had no excuse for
> that particular Hollywood gaffe...)

Maybe it's an unidentified imaginary crop that *resembles* corn.

--
Neil Cerutti
*** Life is a function returning void. ***

Jim Deutch

unread,
Feb 19, 2004, 11:41:54 AM2/19/04
to
On 12 Feb 2004 23:21:51 +0100, The Sidhekin
<Sidh...@remove-spam-and-and-and-remove.allverden.nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>
> (It's a pity Pippin was not present in the Council of Elrond. Then
>someone would have told us exactly why using Eagles was a bad idea.)

Seconded!

It's also a pity that Gimli wasn't there, or we'd have seen his axe
shatter when he whacked the Ring with it...

Jim Deutch
--
The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the
opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.
- Niels Bohr

Een Wilde Ier

unread,
Feb 20, 2004, 4:51:51 PM2/20/04
to
Henriette wrote:
> Een Wilde Ier <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<c0rd4f$1arglj$1...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>
>>Henriette wrote:
>
>
>>>Here is EVIDENCE of your *inner thoughts*. (snip EVIDENCE)
>
>
>>In your eagerness to SLANDER my good Tolkien-loving, Peter
>>Jackson-despising name, Brunette, you have over-reached yourself!
>>
>>This post was MOCKING the films and their debased supporters and
>>apologists!
>>
>
> Yes, that is what you pretend when everyone is looking, but in the
> small obscure threads you are making *propaganda* for your Dark
> Master!

Yes. All shall worship Otis, and despair!

> Don't believe I can't see through your STRAWMEN and WINDMILLS!

Bring it on, Clog-Lady!

Henriette

unread,
Feb 21, 2004, 4:12:53 PM2/21/04
to
Een Wilde Ier <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<c15vhk$1f7gch$3...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de>...

> Henriette wrote:
> >
> > Yes, that is what you pretend when everyone is looking, but in the
> > small obscure threads you are making *propaganda* for your Dark
> > Master!
>
> Yes. All shall worship Otis, and despair!

This is a good example of a strawman. This looks like an awfully
funny, harmless and innocent post. But at the end of the post the
strawman pops out and the true Dark Master is revealed. It is not the
black baby Otis, running to the fridge every time he hears it opened,
hoping this day he will finally be fed. It is the far blacker
Raven......


>
> > Don't believe I can't see through your STRAWMEN and WINDMILLS!
>
> Bring it on, Clog-Lady!

You are nothing but The MOUTH OF RAAFJE!!

Henriette

Raven

unread,
Feb 21, 2004, 5:08:18 PM2/21/04
to
"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:be50318e.04022...@posting.google.com...

> Een Wilde Ier <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<c15vhk$1f7gch$3...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de>...

> > Bring it on, Clog-Lady!

> You are nothing but The MOUTH OF RAAFJE!!

Ugh. My mouth is in my face. I will not have any bloke, Irish or
otherwise, sitting on my face. What are you THINKING, you pervertje??

Hrafntje.


Een Wilde Ier

unread,
Feb 22, 2004, 8:44:28 AM2/22/04
to
Henriette wrote:

> Een Wilde Ier <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<c15vhk$1f7gch$3...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>
>>Henriette wrote:
>>
>>>Yes, that is what you pretend when everyone is looking, but in the
>>>small obscure threads you are making *propaganda* for your Dark
>>>Master!
>>
>>Yes. All shall worship Otis, and despair!
>
>
> This is a good example of a strawman. This looks like an awfully
> funny, harmless and innocent post. But at the end of the post the
> strawman pops out and the true Dark Master is revealed. It is not the
> black baby Otis, running to the fridge every time he hears it opened,
> hoping this day he will finally be fed. It is the far blacker
> Raven......

Where is your proof?

>>>Don't believe I can't see through your STRAWMEN and WINDMILLS!
>>
>>Bring it on, Clog-Lady!
>
>
> You are nothing but The MOUTH OF RAAFJE!!

You mean the TYPIST?

Henriette

unread,
Feb 22, 2004, 2:32:39 PM2/22/04
to
Een Wilde Ier <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<c1abnp$1f5s6s$2...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> Henriette wrote:

> > This is a good example of a strawman. This looks like an awfully
> > funny, harmless and innocent post. But at the end of the post the
> > strawman pops out and the true Dark Master is revealed. It is not the
> > black baby Otis, running to the fridge every time he hears it opened,
> > hoping this day he will finally be fed. It is the far blacker
> > Raven......
>
> Where is your proof?

The proof is your choice of words, choice of insults and grammatical
constructions. BTW I wonder why you keep asking for proof. I keep on
providing ample evidence, but you never give any for your false and
base accusations.


>
> > You are nothing but The MOUTH OF RAAFJE!!
>
> You mean the TYPIST?

If you insist on always having the last word, which you will NEVER
get, I will for the moment say: yes. Another proof: this time for my
reasonableness and willingness to strive for consensus.

Brünnhilde

Brian D. Smith

unread,
Feb 29, 2004, 2:02:46 AM2/29/04
to
"Michelle J. Haines" <mha...@io.nanc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a956a70f...@news.Qwest.net...

> In article <200402121646...@gacracker.org>, Use-Author-
> Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1] says...
> >
> > One crop that would *not* have been present (Peter Jackson take note!)
> > is American maize. Nor would the Maggots have farmed oil-seed rape.
>
> Since potatoes appear in Tolkien's original work, PJ putting in corn
> is probably a forgivable gaffe. :)

Being an unworldly American, I don't know much about Old-World corn, but the
Elvish song that Treebeard recites in III.4 always sounds to me as if it's
talking specifically about maize in these two lines:

"When Spring is come to garth and field, and corn is in the blade" and "When
straw is gold, and ear is white, and harvest comes to town".

It has always been my impression that "corn" in the old sense was a generic
term for grain, so I tend to interpret blades + ears as referring to maize.
But maybe it's just me.

-- Brian


Jette Goldie

unread,
Feb 29, 2004, 7:28:24 AM2/29/04
to

"Brian D. Smith" <she...@speakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:j1mdneza8M4...@speakeasy.net...


We do tend to use it as a generic term for grain - but wheat
and barley also have "ears" - and the sharp leaves are the
"blades"


--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/


the softrat

unread,
Feb 29, 2004, 10:20:45 AM2/29/04
to
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:02:46 -0800, "Brian D. Smith"
<she...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>
>Being an unworldly American, I don't know much about Old-World corn, but the
>Elvish song that Treebeard recites in III.4 always sounds to me as if it's
>talking specifically about maize in these two lines:
>
>"When Spring is come to garth and field, and corn is in the blade" and "When
>straw is gold, and ear is white, and harvest comes to town".
>
>It has always been my impression that "corn" in the old sense was a generic
>term for grain, so I tend to interpret blades + ears as referring to maize.
>But maybe it's just me.
>
No, it's not just you. It's many, many, ignorant, chauvinistic
Americans who cannot imagine a world without America in it.

the softrat
"LotR: You've seen the epic. Now experience the Whole Story!"
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Discordianism: Where reality is a figment of your imagination

Brian D. Smith

unread,
Feb 29, 2004, 4:37:35 PM2/29/04
to
"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote in message
news:IVk0c.5006$xs5.70...@news-text.cableinet.net...

>
> "Brian D. Smith" <she...@speakeasy.net> wrote in message
> news:j1mdneza8M4...@speakeasy.net...
>
> > Being an unworldly American, I don't know much about Old-World corn, but
the
> > Elvish song that Treebeard recites in III.4 always sounds to me as if
it's
> > talking specifically about maize in these two lines:
> >
> > "When Spring is come to garth and field, and corn is in the blade" and
"When
> > straw is gold, and ear is white, and harvest comes to town".
> >
> > It has always been my impression that "corn" in the old sense was a
generic
> > term for grain, so I tend to interpret blades + ears as referring to
maize.
> > But maybe it's just me.
>
> We do tend to use it as a generic term for grain - but wheat
> and barley also have "ears" - and the sharp leaves are the
> "blades"

I did not know that. You have slightly reduced my store of ignorance.
Thank you!

-- Brian


TeaLady (Mari C.)

unread,
Feb 29, 2004, 9:42:21 PM2/29/04
to
the softrat <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in
news:6o04405ukhhpmeepk...@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:02:46 -0800, "Brian D. Smith"
> <she...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>>
>>Being an unworldly American, I don't know much about
>>Old-World corn, but the Elvish song that Treebeard recites
>>in III.4 always sounds to me as if it's talking specifically
>>about maize in these two lines:
>>
>>"When Spring is come to garth and field, and corn is in the
>>blade" and "When straw is gold, and ear is white, and
>>harvest comes to town".
>>
>>It has always been my impression that "corn" in the old
>>sense was a generic term for grain, so I tend to interpret
>>blades + ears as referring to maize. But maybe it's just me.
>>
> No, it's not just you. It's many, many, ignorant,
> chauvinistic Americans who cannot imagine a world without
> America in it.
>

What does lack of knowledge about grain terminology have to do
with americans' lack of imagination ? Lack of education or farm
experience I'll grant you, ignorance of terminology brought on
by buying Wonderful Processed White Bread in plastic baggies and
never knowing how the grain got into that puffy white loaf is a
given, but how could you get a chauvinist America not imagining
a world without America from that ?

And if you mean the US of A, please say so. The Canadians might
know that they, too, are American (North American, to be more
precise) and eventually get worked up enough to say "Eh ?"


--
mc

Raven

unread,
Feb 29, 2004, 1:55:23 PM2/29/04
to
"the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:6o04405ukhhpmeepk...@4ax.com...

> No, it's not just you. It's many, many, ignorant, chauvinistic
> Americans who cannot imagine a world without America in it.

There are also many, many, ignorant, chauvinistic non-Americans who all
too easily can...

Hrafn.


Brian D. Smith

unread,
Mar 1, 2004, 5:11:06 PM3/1/04