CotW note - November

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Belba Grubb From Stock

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Oct 18, 2004, 6:44:20 PM10/18/04
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Hi, all,

Just wanted to note that "Journey to the Cross-Roads" is still
available for November 1, if anyone is interested.

Barb

PS: Yes, I'm still around and interested but still with a great many
irons in the fire; however, in what spare time there is right now, am
working my way through to getting a handle on and saying something
about "On Fairy-stories" and "The Taming of Smeagol" (with a few
inspirations from the ongoing eruption at Mount St. Helens, believe it
or not!). There is indeed something to say about it, but it take some
thought. Thanks, Troels! Really -- am seeing that chapter in a whole
new light.

Conquer anger with love,
Evil with good,
Meanness with generosity,
And lies with truth.
-- Dhammapada

Belba Grubb From Stock

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Oct 24, 2004, 7:47:57 PM10/24/04
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Hi, again:

Just a follow-up note -- unless I missed the mail or post, which is
always very possible, nobody is signed up yet for next week's chapter
("Journey to the Cross-Roads"). Anybody interested? (Heads up for
reserve volunteers: if no takers by Wednesday the 27th, expect to hear
a call for HELP!!)

Might as well mention now that December's chapters are filled except
for the 12/13 discussion of "The Muster of Rohan." That's still open.
Next opening after that is for 1/10/05, "The Pyre of Denethor."

Barb

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:44:20 -0500, Belba Grubb From Stock
<ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

>Hi, all,
>
>Just wanted to note that "Journey to the Cross-Roads" is still
>available for November 1, if anyone is interested.
>
>Barb

Conquer anger with love,

AC

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Oct 25, 2004, 12:19:04 PM10/25/04
to
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 18:47:57 -0500,
Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
> Hi, again:
>
> Just a follow-up note -- unless I missed the mail or post, which is
> always very possible, nobody is signed up yet for next week's chapter
> ("Journey to the Cross-Roads"). Anybody interested? (Heads up for
> reserve volunteers: if no takers by Wednesday the 27th, expect to hear
> a call for HELP!!)
>
> Might as well mention now that December's chapters are filled except
> for the 12/13 discussion of "The Muster of Rohan." That's still open.
> Next opening after that is for 1/10/05, "The Pyre of Denethor."

I'm pretty busy, but if nobody else steps up by Friday, I'll do it. Let me
know if you need me to do it.

--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com

"My illness is due to my doctor's insistence that I drink milk, a
whitish fluid they force down helpless babies." - WC Fields

Michelle J. Haines

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Oct 25, 2004, 11:46:43 PM10/25/04
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In article <svg8n09nd1ep8iufi...@4ax.com>,
ba...@dbtech.net says...

> Hi, all,
>
> Just wanted to note that "Journey to the Cross-Roads" is still
> available for November 1, if anyone is interested.

I'll take it, if no one else does, even though I promised not to be
greedy with my chapters.

BTW, on the parasha site, can we have an option to link to the
English or the <I'm not entirely sure what language that is> site?
Just asking.

Michelle
Flutist

--
Drift on a river, That flows through my arms
Drift as I'm singing to you
I see you smiling, So peaceful and calm
And holding you, I'm smiling, too
Here in my arms, Safe from all harm
Holding you, I'm smiling, too
-- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99]

Belba Grubb From Stock

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Oct 26, 2004, 7:58:46 AM10/26/04
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Michelle J. Haines wrote:
> In article <svg8n09nd1ep8iufi...@4ax.com>,
> ba...@dbtech.net says...
>
>>Hi, all,
>>
>>Just wanted to note that "Journey to the Cross-Roads" is still
>>available for November 1, if anyone is interested.
>
>
> I'll take it, if no one else does, even though I promised not to be
> greedy with my chapters.
>
> BTW, on the parasha site, can we have an option to link to the
> English or the <I'm not entirely sure what language that is> site?
> Just asking.
>
> Michelle
> Flutist
>

Hi, Michelle: Thanks! I think it should be okay with AC, if I
understand his note (and THANK YOU VERY MUCH! AC, for the offer). Will
put you down for it, Michelle.

That's Gaelic on the Parasha site. Een Wilde Ier said he had set his
Google preferences to Gaelic anyway and hadn't noticed the difference
when he did the page; I kept it because I thought it made a nice "frame"
for the threads, though Sindarin, Quenya or runes would have been
better; but there's no absolute reason to use Gaelic. I'm no expert,
but just off the top of my head I can think of one way to set it up with
a Gaelic/English/(any other Google language option desired)option, but
it will take some time to set up as it involves doing another page for
each language and then going in and redoing each link for each page.
Experts might know of an easier way, and I'd be glad to hear of them if
any are available. I'll also ask around and see what can be done about
that. The posts, of course, will always be in English, but wouldn't it
be great to have the Google framework in German, Spanish, Dutch,
Swedish, Norwegian, and....

Barb

Michelle J. Haines

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Oct 26, 2004, 10:06:08 PM10/26/04
to
In article <10nseuu...@corp.supernews.com>, ba...@dbtech.net
says...

>
> Hi, Michelle: Thanks! I think it should be okay with AC, if I
> understand his note (and THANK YOU VERY MUCH! AC, for the offer). Will
> put you down for it, Michelle.

OK, I'll get going on it, then.

> That's Gaelic on the Parasha site. Een Wilde Ier said he had set his
> Google preferences to Gaelic anyway and hadn't noticed the difference
> when he did the page; I kept it because I thought it made a nice "frame"
> for the threads, though Sindarin, Quenya or runes would have been
> better; but there's no absolute reason to use Gaelic.

Hmm. OK. I don't use Google consistently enough to know exactly
what all the links are in a foreign (to me) language, I guess, and
while most of the time I can navigate it with a little thought, I
find it distracting and sometimes irritating when I think, "OK,
that's the link I need to...oh wait, it's not..." I suppose if the
majority prefer it in Gaelic rather than English, I'll cope, I
suppose I just always wondered why it was in another language. I had
assumed it was because whoever was running it was in another country.
I didn't realize it was an aesthetic choice.

Belba Grubb From Stock

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Oct 27, 2004, 4:01:38 PM10/27/04
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Michelle J. Haines wrote:

> Hmm. OK. I don't use Google consistently enough to know exactly
> what all the links are in a foreign (to me) language, I guess, and
> while most of the time I can navigate it with a little thought, I
> find it distracting and sometimes irritating when I think, "OK,
> that's the link I need to...oh wait, it's not..." I suppose if the
> majority prefer it in Gaelic rather than English, I'll cope, I
> suppose I just always wondered why it was in another language. I had
> assumed it was because whoever was running it was in another country.
> I didn't realize it was an aesthetic choice.
>
> Michelle
> Flutist

Oh, your assumption was originally right! I really can't support the
aesthetic choice - it *is* a little hard to navigate. I think (but am
not yet totally positive) that it is possible to set it up so that when
you're at the main page and you select a discussion, a little box will
pop up (this may not work with all browsers...one of the things I'm
working on). Anyway, the box will ask basically what flavor Google you
want; click your choice and it takes you to the page in that language.

Or maybe I should just convert them all to English.

Time for a quick poll. Hey everybody, what language(s) should the Google
page around the threads for each week's discussion be?

a) English, like the page and the threads.
b) My own native language, which Google offers and is ________.
c) Gaelic for aesthetic reasons.
c) Google doesn't offer Sindarin or Quenya Google Groups? (nope)

Barb

the softrat

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Oct 27, 2004, 4:28:23 PM10/27/04
to
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:06:08 -0600, Michelle J. Haines
<mha...@io.nanc.com> wrote:
>I had
>assumed it was because whoever was running it was in another country.
>I didn't realize it was an aesthetic choice.
>
Nope. It's more like a demented choice.

Yr. deer freind,

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Some of my colleagues think that the chemicals we are
experimenting with could potentially cause brain damage, however
I think that fish crunchy bits of salami my new red hippie
noodle. Naked pool frogs?

Christopher Kreuzer

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Oct 27, 2004, 5:14:02 PM10/27/04
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Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

> Time for a quick poll. Hey everybody, what language(s) should the
> Google page around the threads for each week's discussion be?

English.

Troels Forchhammer

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Oct 27, 2004, 7:10:52 PM10/27/04
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in <10nvvk5...@corp.supernews.com>,
Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> Or maybe I should just convert them all to English.

Just remove the "hl=ga&" bit of the URL.

> Time for a quick poll. Hey everybody, what language(s) should the
> Google page around the threads for each week's discussion be?
>
> a) English, like the page and the threads.
> b) My own native language, which Google offers and is ________.
> c) Gaelic for aesthetic reasons.
> c) Google doesn't offer Sindarin or Quenya Google Groups? (nope)

As far as I can see, the links use different servers -- google.ie -
google.com.ni or google.com. If you change the first part of the URL to
specifically use "google.com" and remove the "hl=ga" part -- like this:
"http://groups.google.com/groups?lr=lang_en&"
instead of the usual including the "hl=ga" the language will be the
default language. Thus if I choose to set my Google preferences to
Danish, I will see the text in Danish, and anyone else will see it in the
language they have chosen (defaulting to English, if you haven't set a
specific language). I think that would be preferable -- this would
effectively be option

e) Everybody gets it in English or the language of preference.

--
Troels Forchhammer

"What're quantum mechanics?"
"I don't know. People who repair quantums, I suppose."
- (Terry Pratchett, Eric)

Belba Grubb From Stock

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Oct 28, 2004, 5:36:16 PM10/28/04
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Troels wrote

>As far as I can see, the links use different servers -- google.ie -
>google.com.ni or google.com. If you change the first part of the URL to
>specifically use "google.com" and remove the "hl=ga" part -- like this:
>"http://groups.google.com/groups?lr=lang_en&"
>instead of the usual including the "hl=ga" the language will be the
>default language. Thus if I choose to set my Google preferences to
>Danish, I will see the text in Danish, and anyone else will see it in the
>language they have chosen (defaulting to English, if you haven't set a
>specific language). I think that would be preferable -- this would
>effectively be option

>e) Everybody gets it in English or the language of preference.

Yes, I had been looking those servers (.ie for Gaelic, .es for Spanish,
and so forth) but never would have known the function of the rest the
address. Wow, Troels! It's such a neat solution. Let's see if I can do
it with a test run:

The current URL to the "Voice of Saruman" discussion is:
http://www.google.ie/groups?hl=ga&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=chfras%2483m%241%40nemesis.news.tpi.pl&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dgroup:alt.fan.tolkien%2Binsubject:%2522The%2Bvoice%2Bof%2BSaruman%2522%26hl%3Dga%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3Dchfras%252483m%25241%2540nemesis.news.tpi.pl%26rnum%3D1

The URL that would bring up the Google part in whatever language one's
browser is set for should be this then:

http://groups.google.com/groups?lr=lang_en&&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=chfras%2483m%241%40nemesis.news.tpi.pl&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dgroup:alt.fan.tolkien%2Binsubject:%2522The%2Bvoice%2Bof%2BSaruman%2522%26hl%3Dga%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3Dchfras%252483m%25241%2540nemesis.news.tpi.pl%26rnum%3D1

Works for me -- anybody else?

Barb

--
_____
Do not be afraid of doing good deeds. It is
another name for happiness. I know well
that good deeds lead to a ripening, a blossoming,
which is pleasing, joyous and happy for a long time...
Of three deeds this is the fruit. Of three deeds this
is the ripening, the deeds of Charity, Self-taming,
and Self-control.
-- Buddha
_____

Troels Forchhammer

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Oct 29, 2004, 6:53:10 AM10/29/04
to
in <41816650...@dbtech.net>,

Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> Yes, I had been looking those servers (.ie for Gaelic, .es for


> Spanish, and so forth) but never would have known the function
> of the rest the address. Wow, Troels! It's such a neat solution.

I've been deciphering Google URLs for the History project for a
while, so I'm beginning to learn a lot of the tricks ;-)

>Let's see if I can do it with a test run:

[...]


> Works for me -- anybody else?

Tried changing my Google settings to Danish, Swedish and back to
English -- everything worked just perfect every time.

I don't know if Google's Groups2 beta version works in other languages
than English, but it does display the entire thread.

The link above only lists the nine posts that use the same subject, while
those that have "CoTW: " removed don't show up, as they do in the
groups-beta version (46 posts):

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.fan.tolkien/browse_frm/thread/816c515c726aee16/
http://tinyurl.com/7yhnq

Obviously it is a matter of preference. My personal preference would be
to use the groups-beta version and have all the posts -- including
subject changes -- listed, but that will require quite a bit of extra
work, I realise.

For reference the discussion of II,6 'Lothlórien' was particularly bad.
There were 5 different subject titles used in 245 posts.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/browse_frm/thread/76dcff0d3c3290b3/3b048a9d7ba88e96
http://tinyurl.com/6n4jm

The ordinary groups search finds 215 of those:
http://google.ca/groups?threadm=cQdsc.981$P_3....@news-text.cableinet.net

--
Troels Forchhammer

+++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++
- (Terry Pratchett, Hogfather)

Belba Grubb From Stock

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Oct 29, 2004, 4:19:37 PM10/29/04
to
Troels wrote:

<snip>

>Tried changing my Google settings to Danish, Swedish and back to
>English -- everything worked just perfect every time.

Yippee!! If no one has any objections, the poll is closed and we're
going with option e) *IF* the problem mentioned below can be solved (and
if you, Troels, have no objections I'm going to put a little thank-you
note on the main page for this -- it is so tremendously helpful for the
project).

>I don't know if Google's Groups2 beta version works in other languages
>than English, but it does display the entire thread.

>The link above only lists the nine posts that use the same subject,
>while those that have "CoTW: " removed don't show up, as they do in the
>groups-beta version (46 posts):

>http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.fan.tolkien/browse_frm/thread/816c515c726aee16/
http://tinyurl.com/7yhnq

>Obviously it is a matter of preference. My personal preference would be
>to use the groups-beta version and have all the posts -- including
>subject changes -- listed, but that will require quite a bit of extra
>work, I realise.

I had not yet looked into that (time is SO short these days,
unfortunately) and last night was wondering how or if that would fit in.
Your example of the "Lothlorien" discussion is a good one and shows
that this is really needed too. It may not necessarily require much
work at all as I do have an HTML editor that makes global changes.

But if you're not already getting the Groups2 beta version in Danish,
perhaps with this, then, the language thing won't work.

Sigh.

I can't get to this and spend some time on it until this weekend (Sunday
and Monday), but I will fiddle with it then, and if it only works in
English, will contact the Google people and ask if they can tell me how
to get both options set up. If it turns out not to be possible or if I
don't hear back from the Googlers, then it makes the most sense to use
an English-language Google framework for the threads, as Christopher and
Michelle have mentioned. It's more important to get all the posts in.

To be continued....

Barb

AC

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Oct 30, 2004, 12:49:39 AM10/30/04
to
Belba Grubb From Stock wrote:
> Hi, Michelle: Thanks! I think it should be okay with AC, if I
> understand his note (and THANK YOU VERY MUCH! AC, for the offer). Will
> put you down for it, Michelle.

That's fine by me. However, I wouldn't mind doing a chapter in
December. Is there anything available? I'm not picky, and it's been
almost a year since I did any CotW stuff, so I should get off my lazy butt.

Prai Jei

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Oct 30, 2004, 6:44:33 AM10/30/04
to
Belba Grubb From Stock (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in
message <svg8n09nd1ep8iufi...@4ax.com>:

> (with a few
> inspirations from the ongoing eruption at Mount St. Helens, believe it
> or not!).

I'm over here in the UK, half a world away. Has Mount Doom, sorry Mount St
Helens, actually blown its top again? Last I recall was a news item a few
weeks ago where they were "worried" about it.
--
Paul Townsend
Pair them off into threes

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

Michele Fry

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Oct 30, 2004, 6:56:10 AM10/30/04
to
In article <clvr8s$kmv$2...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Prai Jei
<pvsto...@zyx-abc.fsnet.co.uk> writes

>I'm over here in the UK, half a world away. Has Mount Doom, sorry Mount St
>Helens, actually blown its top again? Last I recall was a news item a few
>weeks ago where they were "worried" about it.

Not yet - nor do they think it likely to explode in a major way as it
did in the 1980s owing to the way it's been "rumbling" - that activity -
last I heard (I checked Google News earlier in the week) - was expected
to go on for weeks or months (even years) without any significant blow-
up...

Michele
(Also in the UK but who reads US news headlines)
==
Sir Toby: Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be
no more cakes and ale?
- Shakespeare Twelfth Night. (2:3)
==
Now reading: The Fellowship of the Ring - J R R Tolkien
The Return of the Shadow (HoME vol. 6) - Christopher Tolkien
==
Counter-Attack web site: http://www.sassoonery.demon.co.uk

Speaking Clock

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Oct 30, 2004, 6:28:30 PM10/30/04
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Michele Fry wrote:
> In article <clvr8s$kmv$2...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Prai Jei
> <pvsto...@zyx-abc.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>
>> I'm over here in the UK, half a world away. Has Mount Doom, sorry
>> Mount St Helens, actually blown its top again? Last I recall was a
>> news item a few weeks ago where they were "worried" about it.
>
> Not yet - nor do they think it likely to explode in a major way as it
> did in the 1980s owing to the way it's been "rumbling" - that
> activity - last I heard (I checked Google News earlier in the week) -
> was expected to go on for weeks or months (even years) without any
> significant blow- up...
>
> Michele
> (Also in the UK but who reads US news headlines)

I'm in the UK too. Next year will be the 25th anniversary of the Mount St
Helens eruption. How do I remember? Because it will be my silver wedding
anniversary and I got married in what was supposed to be flaming June but
turned out to be one of the wettest, most miserable summers on record in
England. They said it was because the atmosphere was so full of ash from
the volcano. In all my wedding photos, you can see my dress reflected in
the puddles at my feet. I wonder if Sam and Rosie had the same trouble in
Hobbiton after the eruption of Mount Doom?

Still, they say the rain washes the tears away. :)
--
Speaking Clock

the softrat

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Oct 30, 2004, 7:34:08 PM10/30/04
to
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:44:33 +0100, Prai Jei
<pvsto...@zyx-abc.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I'm over here in the UK, half a world away. Has Mount Doom, sorry Mount St
>Helens, actually blown its top again? Last I recall was a news item a few
>weeks ago where they were "worried" about it.

MSH is still working on it. She is leaking plumes of steam
periodically. Check out VolcanoCam at:

http://www.fs.fed.us/gpnf/volcanocams/msh/

Note: if it is all grey, the camera is enveloped in a fog. This
happens frequently. Remember to account for the time change. They have
not flood-lit MSH yet.

HTH

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--

I have kleptomania. When it gets bad, I take something for it.

Jette Goldie

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Oct 30, 2004, 9:11:52 PM10/30/04
to

"Speaking Clock" <speakin...@despammed.com> wrote

> I'm in the UK too. Next year will be the 25th anniversary of the Mount St
> Helens eruption. How do I remember? Because it will be my silver wedding
> anniversary and I got married in what was supposed to be flaming June but
> turned out to be one of the wettest, most miserable summers on record in
> England. They said it was because the atmosphere was so full of ash from
> the volcano. In all my wedding photos, you can see my dress reflected in
> the puddles at my feet. I wonder if Sam and Rosie had the same trouble in
> Hobbiton after the eruption of Mount Doom?

Well, tradition says one should _never_ marry in June - even
though it is the month dedicated to Juno, goddess of marital
harmony (not that she had much herself - her hubby was always
chasing bimbos <g>), it's not supposed to be a good month
to marry in....... personally I think this is because June is
usually wet (at least here in Scotland). "flaming June" is
a curse, not a description!


--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/


Troels Forchhammer

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Nov 1, 2004, 10:09:08 AM11/1/04
to
in <4182A5D9...@dbtech.net>,

Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> enriched us with:
>
> Troels wrote:
>>
>> Tried changing my Google settings to Danish, Swedish and back to
>> English -- everything worked just perfect every time.
>
> Yippee!! If no one has any objections, the poll is closed and we're
> going with option e) *IF* the problem mentioned below can be solved
> (and if you, Troels, have no objections I'm going to put a little
> thank-you note on the main page for this -- it is so tremendously
> helpful for the project).

I'm blushing . . .

>> I don't know if Google's Groups2 beta version works in other
>> languages than English, but it does display the entire thread.

I tried changing my preferences to Danish again using the groups-beta,
and it still shows up in English, so I suspect that this version is not
yet available in other languages.

Since, however, the posts that one will be reading is in English anyway,
I don't think that is much of a problem anyway. For my own part my
standard preference is to use English anyway (having gotten used to that
before they made the Danish version, I get confused by the Danish
keywords <G>).

I have compiled the list of all the CotW threads so far on the
groups-beta and sent the list to Barb. If anyone's interested I can mail
it (available as a text file and as an excel workbook). Please mail me at
t.f...@email.dk for a copy.

--
Troels Forchhammer

Knowing what
thou knowest not
is in a sense
omniscience
- Piet Hein, /Omniscience/

Belba Grubb From Stock

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Nov 2, 2004, 4:57:20 AM11/2/04
to
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:34:08 -0700, the softrat <sof...@pobox.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:44:33 +0100, Prai Jei
><pvsto...@zyx-abc.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>I'm over here in the UK, half a world away. Has Mount Doom, sorry Mount St
>>Helens, actually blown its top again? Last I recall was a news item a few
>>weeks ago where they were "worried" about it.
>
>MSH is still working on it. She is leaking plumes of steam
>periodically.

Ash, too, occasionally -- if the snow looks pinkish or the clouds look
powdery, it's probably ash. That's very rare, though.

>Check out VolcanoCam at:
>
> http://www.fs.fed.us/gpnf/volcanocams/msh/
>
>Note: if it is all grey, the camera is enveloped in a fog. This
>happens frequently. Remember to account for the time change. They have
>not flood-lit MSH yet.

The mountain does the best it can to provide self-illumination. See,
for example, a night image I saved from the Volcano Cam on the night
of the last full moon -- you can see the glow from the crater as well
as the snow line that existed then:

http://www.timelineic.org/msh%20yet%20more%20glow%20and%20snow.jpg

Current daily updates are available online after 11 a.m. Pacific time
at
http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Volcanoes/Cascades/CurrentActivity/current_updates.html
The winter weather is so bad they can rarely get to the mountain now.
If you are really a glutton for this sort of thing, you can also check
out MSH's "heartbeat" at the MSH Webicorders HSR (South Ridge - the
only one in this group actually on the volcano), CDF (Cedar Flats) or
JUN (June Lake) at http://www.pnsn.org/WEBICORDER/GREEN/welcome.html .

These stations record weak motion only; a stronger quake like those
that might signify the onset of a really big eruption would put these
off scale, but it's interesting to check out, especially on days when
the Volcano Cam is fogged in or it's nighttime.

Barb

Belba Grubb From Stock

unread,
Nov 2, 2004, 4:58:46 AM11/2/04
to
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:49:39 -0700, AC <mightym...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Belba Grubb From Stock wrote:
>> Hi, Michelle: Thanks! I think it should be okay with AC, if I
>> understand his note (and THANK YOU VERY MUCH! AC, for the offer). Will
>> put you down for it, Michelle.
>
>That's fine by me. However, I wouldn't mind doing a chapter in
>December. Is there anything available? I'm not picky, and it's been
>almost a year since I did any CotW stuff, so I should get off my lazy butt.

:-D

How 'bout "The Muster of Rohan" for 12/13?

Barb

Belba Grubb From Stock

unread,
Nov 2, 2004, 6:46:50 AM11/2/04
to
Hi, Troels:

I was able to take time to look at a couple of the beta-version URLs you
sent and the difference is amazing. Unfortunately, though, the
beta-version seems to bring up ads that can't be blocked. Compare for
instance, the current (Gaelic) URL to the "Lothlorien" discussion (215
posts):

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=ga&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&output=search&threadm=cQdsc.981%24P_3.43051%40news-text.cableinet.net&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dg:thl3665782859d%26dq%3D%26hl%3Dga%26lr%3Dlang_en%26ie%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26output%3Dsearch%26selm%3DcQdsc.981%2524P_3.43051%2540news-text.cableinet.net

and the beta version URL (245 posts):

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/browse_frm/thread/76dcff0d3c3290b3


While it's good to get most of the posts in there, I cringe at forcing
the reader to also have to look at an ad for the NewLine shop, etc.
(After that initial flurry of Tolkien-related ads, some other
geology-related ads have appeared now -- the e-vampires must be feeding
off something in my browser).

I find that to be intolerable but will pass it along to the Wilder and
Dr. Blofeld, and if they want to do it or if there is a clamor for it
here on the groups, I'll set it up. Otherwise, if I don't hear from the
Founding Fathers (g) or group members fairly soon, I'll just set up a
separate link to the beta-version URLs for those who want to check out
all the posts and don't mind the ads, and for the main URLs will just go
ahead and use the switch to get the Google portion in whatever language
one's browser is set for.

Thank you again VERY MUCH for these URLs and information. You have
helped solve a very knotty problem in a very elegant manner.

Barb

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Nov 2, 2004, 9:26:30 AM11/2/04
to
in <418773AA...@dbtech.net>,

Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> enriched us with:
>
> Hi, Troels:
>
> I was able to take time to look at a couple of the beta-version URLs
> you sent and the difference is amazing. Unfortunately, though, the
> beta-version seems to bring up ads that can't be blocked.

I get a few (6) Tolkien-related ads (and very discreet ones at that -- no
banners), that I had, to be frank, more or less overlooked earlier ;-)

That's quite a URL there :-)

In particular since most of it is irrelevant:

http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=cQdsc.981$P_3....@news-text.cableinet.net

This will actually do.

That's the best thing about the standard link -- if you note the
Message-ID of the initial post, you just add the other stuff in front of
it.

I know it doesn't really matter as long as it's in HTML, but if we should
wish to post a URL to one of the discussions, it would be nice if it was
shortened (actually the first "groups" isn't necessary either).

> and the beta version URL (245 posts):
>
>
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/browse_frm/thread/76dcff0d3c3290b3
>
>
> While it's good to get most of the posts in there, I cringe at forcing
> the reader to also have to look at an ad for the NewLine shop, etc.

Yes, I can see that might be a problem. Personally I don't mind this kind
of ads, but then I only get the Tolkien-related stuff.

> (After that initial flurry of Tolkien-related ads, some other
> geology-related ads have appeared now -- the e-vampires must be
> feeding off something in my browser).

Completely off-topic, but you might want to get some tool to remove
tracking cookies from your system.

> Otherwise, if I don't hear from the Founding Fathers (g)

;-)

> or group members fairly soon, I'll just set up a separate link to the
> beta-version URLs for those who want to check out all the posts and
> don't mind the ads, and for the main URLs will just go ahead and use
> the switch to get the Google portion in whatever language one's
> browser is set for.

That might be the best solution anyway.

> Thank you again VERY MUCH for these URLs and information. You have
> helped solve a very knotty problem in a very elegant manner.

You're very welcome.

--
Troels Forchhammer

Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to
anger.
- Gildor Inglorion, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)

AC

unread,
Nov 2, 2004, 1:10:25 PM11/2/04
to

Alright! I'll take it (a good chapter).

Belba Grubb From Stock

unread,
Nov 8, 2004, 4:27:15 PM11/8/04
to
On 2 Nov 2004 18:10:25 GMT, AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 03:58:46 -0600,
>Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:49:39 -0700, AC <mightym...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Belba Grubb From Stock wrote:
>>>> Hi, Michelle: Thanks! I think it should be okay with AC, if I
>>>> understand his note (and THANK YOU VERY MUCH! AC, for the offer). Will
>>>> put you down for it, Michelle.
>>>
>>>That's fine by me. However, I wouldn't mind doing a chapter in
>>>December. Is there anything available? I'm not picky, and it's been
>>>almost a year since I did any CotW stuff, so I should get off my lazy butt.
>>
>>:-D
>>
>> How 'bout "The Muster of Rohan" for 12/13?
>
>Alright! I'll take it (a good chapter).

It is, indeed. Thanks!

Barb

Belba Grubb From Stock

unread,
Nov 8, 2004, 4:47:22 PM11/8/04
to
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:26:30 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

>> (After that initial flurry of Tolkien-related ads, some other
>> geology-related ads have appeared now -- the e-vampires must be
>> feeding off something in my browser).
>
>Completely off-topic, but you might want to get some tool to remove
>tracking cookies from your system.

Well, that's already taken care of with the appropriate Windows
Internet Settings, the ad blocker and the firewall. What's
interesting is that I had a bit earlier, though not immediately prior,
sent in a post here about Mount St. Helens that mentioned the snow
line. The ads that appeared included not only geology stuff but also
ads for snow removal equipment. Obviously the little e-vampires had
latched onto that previous post in my newsreader software somehow. I
don't know that it involved a traditional tracking cookie as in the
meantime, if my memory is correct (a big if - it's heck to grow old),
I had closed my newsreader, gotten off line, done a few other things
on the computer and then gotten back online again to try the beta
version URL, and I opened that URL with my browser not the newsreader.
Once the URL opened and after a little interval during which the
generic Tolkien-related ads played, the little e-vampires somehow
accessed my newsreader, which I think was still closed, and either
read my last post or else just pulled my posting ID and compared it to
recent posts in the Google database and then played Belba-specific
ads.

Whatever happened, it was most unwelcome and unpleasant. I'm a real
bug about privacy, and recognizing that, I'm holding off doing
anything at all about the beta version option one way or the other for
a while until I can make a decision with a cool head. Input from
others in the meantime would be most welcome.

And I have updated the page now. Whew! Hope it works. I checked it
as thoroughly as I could and believe I've gotten the Google language
part set as you suggested (look for your name high up on the page
there, Troels - G); everybody, please let me know if it isn't working
or if I missed anything.

Thanks again, Troels!

Barb

Dirk Thierbach

unread,
Nov 9, 2004, 3:04:59 AM11/9/04
to
Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:26:30 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

>>Completely off-topic, but you might want to get some tool to remove
>>tracking cookies from your system.

> Well, that's already taken care of with the appropriate Windows
> Internet Settings, the ad blocker and the firewall. What's
> interesting is that I had a bit earlier, though not immediately
> prior, sent in a post here about Mount St. Helens that mentioned the
> snow line. The ads that appeared included not only geology stuff
> but also ads for snow removal equipment. Obviously the little
> e-vampires had latched onto that previous post in my newsreader
> software somehow. I don't know that it involved a traditional

> tracking cookie [...] and either read my last post or else just


> pulled my posting ID and compared it to recent posts in the Google
> database

That's probably what it did -- I mean, I don't know how Google works,
but they already have this information, so it would be stupid not
to use it.

> and then played Belba-specific ads.

But that's the idea behind it: They want to present ads to you that
are relevant to you. At the same time, they keep ads away from
that probably won't interest you. And as long as the ads are not
obtrusive, and just consist of a few lines of text, I can live with
that. I may actually find something that interests me from time
to time.

> Whatever happened, it was most unwelcome and unpleasant. I'm a real
> bug about privacy, and recognizing that, I'm holding off doing
> anything at all about the beta version option one way or the other for
> a while until I can make a decision with a cool head. Input from
> others in the meantime would be most welcome.

You should realize that everything you post on the Usenet is public.
If you don't want other people to use it permanently, you can try
to add a 'X-No-Archive: yes' header, but even that's no guarantee.
If you want to keep something private, never mention it on the
Usenet. Your Usenet posts *can* be analyzed, and can reveal a lot about
you. That's how it is.

- Dirk

Jens Kilian

unread,
Nov 9, 2004, 12:41:39 PM11/9/04
to
Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@gmx.de> writes:
> You should realize that everything you post on the Usenet is public.
> If you don't want other people to use it permanently, you can try
> to add a 'X-No-Archive: yes' header, but even that's no guarantee.
> If you want to keep something private, never mention it on the
> Usenet. Your Usenet posts *can* be analyzed, and can reveal a lot about
> you. That's how it is.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?GhostOfUsenetPostingsPast
--
mailto:j...@acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]

Belba Grubb From Stock

unread,
Nov 10, 2004, 8:15:04 AM11/10/04
to
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:04:59 +0100, Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@gmx.de>
wrote:

>Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:26:30 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
>> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>Completely off-topic, but you might want to get some tool to remove
>>>tracking cookies from your system.
>
>> Well, that's already taken care of with the appropriate Windows
>> Internet Settings, the ad blocker and the firewall. What's
>> interesting is that I had a bit earlier, though not immediately
>> prior, sent in a post here about Mount St. Helens that mentioned the
>> snow line. The ads that appeared included not only geology stuff
>> but also ads for snow removal equipment. Obviously the little
>> e-vampires had latched onto that previous post in my newsreader
>> software somehow. I don't know that it involved a traditional
>> tracking cookie [...] and either read my last post or else just
>> pulled my posting ID and compared it to recent posts in the Google
>> database
>
>That's probably what it did -- I mean, I don't know how Google works,
>but they already have this information, so it would be stupid not
>to use it.
>
>> and then played Belba-specific ads.
>
>But that's the idea behind it: They want to present ads to you that
>are relevant to you. At the same time, they keep ads away from
>that probably won't interest you.

It's kind of like opt-out programs in other media. Instead of asking
you if you want the product, they push it at you unless you
specifically check a little box somewhere and mail it to some address,
etc.

Only with this Google product, there's no opting out. You can't even
block it with a good firewall or an ad blocking program.

I'm in business for myself, doing medical transcription, but I'm not
dumb enough to think that my clientele would pick up if I touted my
company every time the doctors and office/department managers relaxed
or did something for fun, forcing them to read my ad without even an
opt-out clause. It would have quite the opposite effect, of course,
because such actions are still intolerably intrusive in real life, the
behavioral science people having not yet found a way (outside the
relatively small-scale totalitarian societies here and there) to
condition widespread social acceptance of such intrusions.

They have, of course, found a way to do it globally in the electronic
medium, and so one must be especially cautious and wary of intrusive
behavior whenever one uses this medium, as well as aware of the root
causes of one's acceptance it, i.e., whether it is a native or a
conditioned response; and always one must be quick to set limits, if
only for oneself.

It complicated matters when a labor of love is offered to the whole
world. There are probably a great many people who would react to the
ads as you and Troels have done. There are probably a great many
other people who might be slightly irritated by it but just push it
aside in order to get to the "good stuff." There are also probably
some people who would get downright annoyed by it, as I have done.

If I were doing this to make a buck, I'd find it very easy to make the
choice that would be most profitable to myself (sell to the bulk of
visitors who either didn't care or who weren't irritated enough to
react, and the rest could go hang). That's human nature, which is not
always right but is always understandable if one looks at it long
enough.

A labor of love, however, is by its own nature inclusive. Ideally no
one should be turned off by a visit to these pages and discussions.
And so the choice here would be to lose the ads (which the majority of
visitors either wouldn't have noticed or wouldn't have been
sufficiently annoyed by to fuss over) and act for the sake of the
rest, even though they were in the minority. Too, there are other
options for people interested in reading all the branches of these
discussions, after all. Dr. Blofeld referred to something of the sort
in, I think, his first LOTR summary.


>obtrusive, and just consist of a few lines of text, I can live with
>that. I may actually find something that interests me from time
>to time.
>
>> Whatever happened, it was most unwelcome and unpleasant. I'm a real
>> bug about privacy, and recognizing that, I'm holding off doing
>> anything at all about the beta version option one way or the other for
>> a while until I can make a decision with a cool head. Input from
>> others in the meantime would be most welcome.
>
>You should realize that everything you post on the Usenet is public.
>If you don't want other people to use it permanently, you can try
>to add a 'X-No-Archive: yes' header, but even that's no guarantee.
>If you want to keep something private, never mention it on the
>Usenet. Your Usenet posts *can* be analyzed, and can reveal a lot about
>you. That's how it is.

(shudder) I know too much about some of the spammers here then! (g)

Yeah, I realize that. That's why I take so much time over a post.
It's going to be around for a long time. But public is one thing, and
people mining for $$$ is quite another. It actually inhibits free
speech, if everything people say can be used "against them" by
marketers. This is what all the fuss over G-Mail (Google again),
etc., is about. We all lose then, and so it's quite necessary to the
overall health of the online community now and in the future that some
boundaries be drawn.

Barb

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Nov 10, 2004, 3:20:14 PM11/10/04
to
Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

<snip>

> Only with this Google product, there's no opting out. You can't
> even block it with a good firewall or an ad blocking program.

It is part of Google. The stupidity lies in the advertising people that
pay to run the adverts. They rely on the one in a million person who
responds to the adverts and buys something. I have occasionally been
that one in a million, so maybe the advertising people know what they
are doing.

I'm more concerned about the television screen I found installed on a
bus the other day. Instead of reading the book I had, I spent the
journey watching adverts on the screen, and watching the other
passengers on the CCTV images that are supposed to make you feel safe...
I guess one day we will all be like Tokyo, unable to escape the
ubiquitous TV screen where ever we go. Even the toilet! Fahrenheit 451
suddenly seems a lot closer...

> Ideally no one should be turned off by a visit to these pages and
> discussions. And so the choice here would be to lose the ads
> (which the majority of visitors either wouldn't have noticed or
> wouldn't have been sufficiently annoyed by to fuss over) and act
> for the sake of the rest, even though they were in the minority.

But you can't avoid the adverts. They are present in both version of
Google. You can provide links to both the original Google Groups threads
_and_ the Google Groups 2 threads, if the advertising is less intrusive
for one than the other.

It all depends whether Google decides to keep both formats going. I
suspect they will switch over to just the Google Groups 2 format at some
point, though it depends on the reaction they are getting to the changes
and improvements.

I hope that the URLs to Google posts under the old (still current)
system will still work in Google Groups 2. Many of the posts in Google
Groups have links to other Google Groups posts that should be kept
'live' under Google Groups 2.

> Too, there are other options for people interested in reading all the
> branches of these discussions, after all. Dr. Blofeld referred to
> something of the sort in, I think, his first LOTR summary.

<?>

What are you talking about here?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Dirk Thierbach

unread,
Nov 11, 2004, 3:56:48 AM11/11/04
to
Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:04:59 +0100, Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@gmx.de>

>>But that's the idea behind it: They want to present ads to you that


>>are relevant to you. At the same time, they keep ads away from
>>that probably won't interest you.

> It's kind of like opt-out programs in other media.

You can always opt-out: Nobody forces you to use Google.

> Instead of asking you if you want the product, they push it at you
> unless you specifically check a little box somewhere and mail it to
> some address, etc.

But that's quite different from what Google does.

> Only with this Google product, there's no opting out. You can't even
> block it with a good firewall or an ad blocking program.

Sure you can (if you can do programming): You just need a little
Perl-script to modify the HTML. But in difference to other ads,
which are annoying images that take a long time to load, and which
I am never interested in, the Google ad-lines are quick to load,
they don't take up much screenspace, and they are actually useful
from time to time (because they relate to the context I am using
Google).

And if you're offended by the fact that Google "recognizes" you, and
some computer in their basement uses this additional information to
make these ads even potentially more useful for you, just "anonymize"
yourself: Delete any Google-Cookies, and configure your browser to
reject all further Google-Cookes. Then Google cannot tell who you are,
and will chose ads only based on the content you're searching for.

(I have never used Google Groups to post; I am not sure if this
is still possible without Cookies).

> I'm in business for myself, doing medical transcription, but I'm not
> dumb enough to think that my clientele would pick up if I touted my
> company every time the doctors and office/department managers relaxed
> or did something for fun, forcing them to read my ad without even an
> opt-out clause.

Sure. Like you, I don't like ads I didn't ask for at all. But if
I am using Google, I am searching for content; so if I get a few
ads that relate to that content, that's ok. That was what I was
looking for, after all.

I mean, compared to what other web providers do (place large images
in the middle of the text), Google are really the "good guys".

> If I were doing this to make a buck, I'd find it very easy to make the
> choice that would be most profitable to myself (sell to the bulk of
> visitors who either didn't care or who weren't irritated enough to
> react, and the rest could go hang). That's human nature, which is not
> always right but is always understandable if one looks at it long
> enough.

But that's not what Google does. They are very careful that their ads
are really informative. If an ad doesn't relate to the keywords it is
registered with, it isn't accepted. If an ad doesn't get any response
after some time (i.e., if people are not interested in it), it is
deleted from the database.

If I google for something, I am looking for a matching website.
The providers of websites want to point people who are interested
in their subject to their website. So if the interests match, we
both want the same thing. That's perfectly ok.

> Yeah, I realize that. That's why I take so much time over a post.
> It's going to be around for a long time. But public is one thing, and
> people mining for $$$ is quite another.

It's not mining for $$$, it's an attempt to better serve your
interests (and those of the ad providers, of course :-) If you get
ads you're interested in, that are actually useful for you, you
won't be as offended by them. And of course the ad providers
gain something because you're actually having a look at what they
offer, instead of ignoring it. And Google gains something,
because it gets only paid by the ad providers if you really follow
that ad. It's a win-win situation.

Of course it's not perfect; a machine cannot guess correctly what
really interests you. But as long as the ads are not obtrusive
and I *can* easily ignore them, that's ok.

> It actually inhibits free speech, if everything people say can be
> used "against them" by marketers.

But Google tries to use it *for* you, not *against* you. So I don't
see why it inhibits free speech.

> This is what all the fuss over G-Mail (Google again),
> etc., is about.

GMail is quite a different thing. GMail means you loose control over
your *private* EMail, in constrast to the Usenet, which is public
anyway. It's far too easy to analyze your private EMail and in this
way let other *people* (not marketing organzinations, but e.g., your
boss, your next employer) peep into some information that is not
their business. As long as Google is analyzing public information
(WWW, Usenet), there's no problem. If you give anyone private
information, you need safeguards to make sure that this privacy
is respected. And that's the problem with GMail (which is why
I would never ever use it, as much as I am fond of Google as a search
engine).

- Dirk

Jim Deutch

unread,
Nov 11, 2004, 11:53:38 AM11/11/04
to
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:47:22 -0600, Belba Grubb From Stock
<ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

>read my last post or else just pulled my posting ID and compared it to
>recent posts in the Google database and then played Belba-specific
>ads.

Recently on a site with "ads by google" one of my keywords was
"babies". One of the ads:

"Find babies on eBay! aff."

Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
It's much easier for stupid plot twists to happen in reality than in
fiction, since nobody involved is concerned with preserving suspension

of disbelief. -- David Eppstein

Belba Grubb From Stock

unread,
Nov 15, 2004, 8:21:51 PM11/15/04
to
On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:20:14 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>I'm more concerned about the television screen I found installed on a
>bus the other day. Instead of reading the book I had, I spent the
>journey watching adverts on the screen, and watching the other
>passengers on the CCTV images that are supposed to make you feel safe...
>I guess one day we will all be like Tokyo, unable to escape the
>ubiquitous TV screen where ever we go. Even the toilet! Fahrenheit 451
>suddenly seems a lot closer...

Here you go:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/gear/2004-10-20-tv-b-gone_x.htm

>> Too, there are other options for people interested in reading all the
>> branches of these discussions, after all. Dr. Blofeld referred to
>> something of the sort in, I think, his first LOTR summary.
>
><?>
>
>What are you talking about here?

Sorry - my mistake. It was in his introduction to Chapter 1 of "The
Hobbit" discussion, not the LoTR discussion:

For complete details on this series, read the thread...

That may be the best solution of all -- subscribe to the newsgroups if
you want to follow every branch on the tree; that will also reveal
this discussion of what the beta version can do for those who might be
interested.

Barb

It is just as if a man travelling in a forest should
come across an ancient road, an ancient path, traversed
by men in former times, and proceeding along it,
should come to an ancient city, an old royal citadel
lived in by men in former times, with parks and groves,
water tanks and walls - a truly delightful place.
Then, suppose that this man should tell of his discovery
to the king or a royal minister, saying: "Sire, you
should know that I have discovered an ancient city.
Restore that place."

Then, suppose that ancient city was restored, so that
it became prosperous, flourishing, populous and was
filled with folk, and it grew and expanded. In the same way,
I have seen an ancient road, an ancient path, traversed
by the fully enlightened Buddhas of former times. And
what is that path? It is the Noble Eightfold Path.
-- from the Pali canon

Belba Grubb From Stock

unread,
Nov 18, 2004, 6:31:20 AM11/18/04
to
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:56:48 +0100, Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@gmx.de>
wrote:

>Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:


>> On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:04:59 +0100, Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@gmx.de>
>
>>>But that's the idea behind it: They want to present ads to you that
>>>are relevant to you. At the same time, they keep ads away from
>>>that probably won't interest you.
>
>> It's kind of like opt-out programs in other media.
>
>You can always opt-out: Nobody forces you to use Google.

Well, right now I'm forcing the reader of the COTW discussion page to
use it and so am thinking long and hard about the matter. But that's a
good point: it might be worthwhile to check out what other "thread
collection" options are out there and to compare the pro's and con's.

>> Only with this Google product, there's no opting out. You can't even
>> block it with a good firewall or an ad blocking program.
>
>Sure you can (if you can do programming): You just need a little
>Perl-script to modify the HTML.

If you don't already use it, you might be interested in the Firefox
browser, which is open source (if I understand that term correctly):

http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/

Barb

Where will wants not, a way opens.

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