Tolkien's plans
came...@woods.ulowell.edu
I just finished reading 'The Hobbit' again for the third time. It's been
about five years since my last reading. I have one question to ask the fellow
Tolkien junkies of this board.
Do you think Tolkien wrote the ring into 'Then Hobbit' thinking ahead to the
story of 'The Lord of the Rings', or did he just expand on it after the success
of 'The Hobbit'? Does anyone know what Tolkien was actually planning? Or does
anyone have any guesses? Let me know if I'm just plain whacked (crazy) for
even asking such a question.
I tend to ponder on crazy things like this.
E-mail or posted responses welcome.
----------------------------------------
Thomas S. Camerlinck
University of Massachusetts Lowell
The Freaky Scientist
|> story of 'The Lord of the Rings', or did he just expand on it after the success
|> of 'The Hobbit'? Does anyone know what Tolkien was actually planning? Or does
|> anyone have any guesses? Let me know if I'm just plain whacked (crazy) for
|> even asking such a question.
|> I tend to ponder on crazy things like this.
|>
|> E-mail or posted responses welcome.
|>
What I know is what I guess and what I know is that a man named Michael
Carpenter (I'm not so sure about his first name) wrote a biography about
Tolkien. He spoke with him and his son and got to know, what was intended by
Tolkien by writing these books.
Read this biography and you will know.
But for the time you need to get it, here is what I remember:
First he began with his 'red books', books where he wrote down his ideas about
his world. At first there where no such things as 'The Hobbit' or 'Lord of the
Rings'. First there only where his personally languages. The languages of Elves.
And for this languages he needed creatures. Thus he found the making of the world,
made by Illuvatar and the Ainur. First there were tales and poems and songs in the
old Quenya language.
Then he wrote, driven by his wife and children, the Hobbit, because they loved
his 'Letters by St. Claus'(hope the translation is right). Parallel to this he
continued writing on 'The Silmarillion'.
And after all this, his (hmpf, I need a dictionary, what is 'Verleger' in
English?), well the man who printed 'The Hobbit', wanted Tolkien to write a second
part of 'The Hobbit'. But while writing it, Tolkien put more and more things of
the 'old' tales of the Silmarillion in this book and in the end it was a complete
story, independend of 'The Hobbit'.
The only thing in common was that both where based on his 'Lost tales'.
My opinion is, that Tolkien didn't plan anything. He concentrated on his work in
historical languages, studying legends and old folks. And by finding his own
language (he knew about twelve old languages, but this one was new), he had
to find his own world in which it could be spoken.
He created a world, not a book.
Hope I could help you. I will be there when Sauron rises again.
The Freaky Scientist (markus hoff)
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Bill Seurer
|> Do you think Tolkien wrote the ring into 'Then Hobbit' thinking ahead to the
|> story of 'The Lord of the Rings', or did he just expand on it after the success
|> of 'The Hobbit'? Does anyone know what Tolkien was actually planning? Or does
|> anyone have any guesses?
No guess is needed. He originally wrote The Hobbit as a stand alone story
but a lot of names crept in from his ongoing "larger" work--The Silmarillion.
Later he decided to write a sequel to The Hobbit and only then did it begin
to fit better into the overall story. I believe that The Hobbit was
revised lsightly in later editions to make it fit a bit better.
I am in the midst of reading The Fellowship of the Ring and volume 1 of
the History of the Lord of the Rings simultaneously so the above is
straight out of those.
--
- Bill Seurer Language and Compiler Development IBM Rochester, MN
Internet: BillS...@vnet.ibm.com America On-Line: BillS...@aol.com
Carl F. Hostetter
The Ring was in _The Hobbit_ from the first edition. However, Tolkien
did rewrite portions of _The Hobbit_ in conjunction with the publication
of _The Lord of the Rings_ in order to deepen the significance of the
Ring and to make Gollum more sinister. This is detailed in _The Annotated
Hobbit_, edited by Douglas Anderson (Houghton Mifflin; I'm not sure this
is still in print).
In article <1993Feb23...@woods.ulowell.edu>,
|===================================================================|
| Carl F. Hostetter ca...@class.gsfc.nasa.gov |
| |
| Ars longa, vita brevis. |
| The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
| "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
| such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
|===================================================================|
Andrew Clarke
been>about five years since my last reading. I have one question to ask the
fellow>Tolkien junkies of this board.
>Do you think Tolkien wrote the ring into 'Then Hobbit' thinking ahead to the
>story of 'The Lord of the Rings', or did he just expand on it after the success
>of 'The Hobbit'? Does anyone know what Tolkien was actually planning? Or does
>anyone have any guesses? Let me know if I'm just plain whacked (crazy) for
>even asking such a question.
Sue my estate if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that in some biography of
Tolkien that I read (I'm a strange person) it said that he wrote the hobbit
as a children's book without any thought to writing a sequel. LoTR was
written as a sequel "children's book" but quickly grew out of proportion and
Tokien realized that it was in fact not really a children's book. So the
answer to your question is, no, he wasn't planning on expanding on the ring
idea when he wrote the hobbit.
========================================================
Andrew Clarke
I didn't know this was supposed
to be my plan until now...
(519) 725-5473
Stan Brown
>
>The Ring was in _The Hobbit_ from the first edition. However, Tolkien
>did rewrite portions of _The Hobbit_ in conjunction with the publication
>of _The Lord of the Rings_ in order to deepen the significance of the
>Ring and to make Gollum more sinister. This is detailed in _The Annotated
>Hobbit_, edited by Douglas Anderson (Houghton Mifflin; I'm not sure this
>is still in print).
I bought the hardback from the remainder table for a few dollard (in
hardback) about a year ago. I enjoyed it quite a lot, and recommend
looking for it in used-book stored or the discount bookstores that
specialize in remainders. Another possible source is those mail-order
catalogs headed something like "book bargains", which again are
remainders.
In case you're wondering, "remainders" are the orphans of the publishing
trade. After sales have fallen off, the remaining copies are just
taking up space, so the bookstores and/or publishers drastically cut the
price to make room for a gazillion copies of the next Stephen King
novel.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems br...@Ncoast.ORG
"'Overreacting' seems to be the new word for being upset when someone treats
you badly. As such, it is serving as the second round of ammunition for
bullies who find that their first round hits the target." --Miss Manners
xm...@vse.cs
f...@uni-paderborn.de (The Freaky Scientist) writes:
> What I know is what I guess and what I know is that a man named Michael
> Carpenter (I'm not so sure about his first name) wrote a biography about
> Tolkien. ..
The name of the author of the biography was *Humphrey* Carpenter.
Here are some details on it from 'The Tolkien Booklist':
Tolkien: A Biography; by Humphrey Carpenter. HM, 1977 (ISBN 0-395-25360-8)
[op]; HM, 1988 (ISBN 0-395-48676-9) (paper); Ballantine, 1985
(ISBN 0-345-32729-2) (paper).
> First he began with his 'red books', books where he wrote down his ideas
> about his world.
(it was called 'The Book of Lost Tales')
> Then he wrote, driven by his wife and children, the Hobbit, because they
> loved his 'Letters by St. Claus'(hope the translation is right).
You'll find it under the name 'Father Christmas Letters'.
Hynek Med, xm...@vse.cs
Mike Kelsey
|>
|> The first edition of The Hobbit had a different version of the finding
|> of the Ring, in which Bilbo's account to Gandalf and the Dwarves of
|> his "birthday present" was true. That is, Gollum voluntarily gave the
|> Ring to Bilbo. As this shows, Tolkien had not then developed his ideas
|> about what it was; it was simply a magic ring which made the wearer
|> invisible. "The Annotated Hobbit" is one book available now in which
|> you can read this version -- well worth getting hold of.
|>
|> Perdita Stevens
Intriguing, since that is precisely the story that Bilbo himself wrote in
"There and Back Again." Recall that in Rivendell, when Bilbo told the "true"
story, he apologized to Gloin for misleading him (and the other Dwarves), and
also that Gandalf had forced the true story from Bilbo by deft questioning,
which was what led him to suspect that the ring was the One Ring in the first
place.
In a sense, the first edition of the Hobbit could be considered "more
accurate," since it has "what Bilbo himself wrote," while the second edition is
closer to the "alternative" that Frodo put in to the Red Book after the War.
-- Mike Kelsey
--
[ My opinions are not endorsed by SLAC, Caltech, or the US government ]
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off
the shoulder of Orion. I've watched C-beams glitter in the darkness
near the Tannhauser Gate. All these memories will be lost in time, like
tears in the rain." -- Roy Batty
xm...@vse.cs
>The Ring was in _The Hobbit_ from the first edition. However, Tolkien
>did rewrite portions of _The Hobbit_ in conjunction with the publication
>of _The Lord of the Rings_ in order to deepen the significance of the
>Ring and to make Gollum more sinister. This is detailed in _The Annotated
>Hobbit_, edited by Douglas Anderson (Houghton Mifflin; I'm not sure this
>is still in print).
It is in print - I saw it some time ago in HarperColins catalogue.
Perdita Stevens
>Do you think Tolkien wrote the ring into 'Then Hobbit' thinking ahead to the
>story of 'The Lord of the Rings', or did he just expand on it after the success
>of 'The Hobbit'? Does anyone know what Tolkien was actually planning? Or does
>anyone have any guesses? Let me know if I'm just plain whacked (crazy) for
>even asking such a question.
The first edition of The Hobbit had a different version of the finding
Jeremy Walton
>
> The Ring was in _The Hobbit_ from the first edition. However, Tolkien
> did rewrite portions of _The Hobbit_ in conjunction with the publication
> of _The Lord of the Rings_ in order to deepen the significance of the
> Ring and to make Gollum more sinister. This is detailed in _The Annotated
> Hobbit_, edited by Douglas Anderson (Houghton Mifflin; I'm not sure this
> is still in print).
I bought "The Annotated Hobbit" a few years ago - it's a nice setting of the
story, with the minor variations in the texts (with the exception of the
section involving Gollum and the riddle game, which was extensively overhauled
by JRRT after writing the LoTR) well set out. It's - very roughly - like the
HoME treatment for "The Hobbit". I wasn't aware of it being out of print - at
least, over here in the UK.
I met Douglas Anderson about nine years ago in Ithaca, NY, where he was working
in a bookshop just off the Cornell campus. He saw me thumbing through the
Tolkien section and started chatting about JRRT. Christopher Tolkien
acknowledges him in the introduction to the "Book of Lost Tales II" for a
point he makes about (I think) "Why the man in the moon came down too soon",
and Anderson took the book off the shelf and pointed this out to me.
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