Language: Why Elvish on the Ring?
Taser
written in Elvish script. Why so? Legolas clearly states at one point that,
"'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'", and from other
quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black Speech.
So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on
the Ring?
Just wonderin'
Bill O'Meally
"Taser" <tas...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92AED80476BC3...@207.217.77.101...
He had no script of his own.
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
Graeme
in Elvish script. Why so?
>>
Well, as Isildur aptly pointed out, "they have no letters in Mordor for such
subtle work".
abracadabra
1) Nobody really liked reading or speaking in the "Black Speach"
2) No "r" or "b" in the black speech, making it
"one ing to ule them all
one ing to ind them
one ing to ing all into aknes and ind them"
It just didn't work
Aside from that Black Speech Font is all caps, so it doens't fit on a little
ring...
Stan Brown
In the Council of Elrond, Gandalf quotes Isildur's answer to that
question: "Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear
as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It is
fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in
Mordor for such subtle work; ...".
In ordinary language: The Elvish script was written with very fine
lines and could condense a lot of letters in a small space.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
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Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
Michael Cole
> The Ring-inscription is clearly described as being Black Speech, but
> written in Elvish script. Why so?
The one ring verse as inscribed...
Ash nazg durbatuluk,
ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazg thrakatuluk,
agh butzum-ishi krimpatul
I.e, the language was black-speech, the characters used were elvish script.
Legolas clearly states at one point
> that, "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'",
> and from other quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black
> Speech.
Black-speech has no written characters.
> So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the
> inscription on the Ring?
Because runes would not have looked as impressive.
Flame of the West
> So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on
> the Ring?
He had no need to invent his own script, as the Fëanorian
script was invented by someone just as evil as Sauron himself.
--
-- FotW
The Marmite FAQ
http://www.gty.org/~phil/marmite.htm
Taser
news:3DB4C70F...@nospam.solinas.org:
> Taser wrote:
>
>> So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the
>> inscription on the Ring?
>
> He had no need to invent his own script, as the Fëanorian
> script was invented by someone just as evil as Sauron himself.
>
But Legolas clearly states that he did not, as a habit, use Elvish
characters. This would imply to me that there was a written form of Black
Speech. I just haven't found any specific references to it.
Taser
> Legolas clearly states at one point
>> that, "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'",
>> and from other quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black
>> Speech.
>
> Black-speech has no written characters.
I'm trying to find out if this is indeed the case. Evidence seems to
contradict this assertion - Legolas states that Sauron and his minions do
not use Elvish script, implying that they use SOME kind of script; and as
others have pointed out, Isildur wrote that, "they have no letters in
Mordor for such subtle work", implying that they do have a grosser and less
elegant form of writing.
But, again, a lot of "implied"s and "seems to be"s.
Taser
> Legolas clearly states at one point
>> that, "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'",
>> and from other quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black
>> Speech.
>
> Black-speech has no written characters.
I'm trying to find out if this is indeed the case. Evidence seems to
Taser
> In ordinary language: The Elvish script was written with very fine
> lines and could condense a lot of letters in a small space.
>
Sauron had been working so closely with the Elves at the time of the
forging of the Ring had accustomed him to writing Elvish, a habit he only
later changed.
BaronjosefR
Sauron had been working so closely with the Elves at the time of the
forging of the Ring had accustomed him to writing Elvish, a habit he only
later changed.<<<<<<<<
COuld it also be that this was an attempt and a means to control the three
elvish rings, of which Sauron had no hand in creating?
Michael Cole
AC
> Taser wrote:
>
>> So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on
>> the Ring?
>
> He had no need to invent his own script, as the Fëanorian
> script was invented by someone just as evil as Sauron himself.
I really don't think Feanor was as evil as Sauron. The difference, in my
humble opinion, is that Feanor went nuts, while Sauron picked a bad mentor.
--
AC
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru
>
>> So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on
>> the Ring?
>
>He had no need to invent his own script, as the Fëanorian
>script was invented by someone just as evil as Sauron himself.
Yeah! Bomb the Halls of Mandos!
Seriously, it's not Sauron but Feanor who breaks the Silmarils at the End.
Obviously, it is a repentance of a kind.
Archie
Neil Franklin
> > Legolas clearly states at one point
> >> that, "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'",
> >> and from other quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black
> >> Speech.
>
> contradict this assertion - Legolas states that Sauron and his minions do
> not use Elvish script,
Legolas said "Elf-runes", not "Elvish script". There exist 2 elvish
scripts:
- The Tengwar of Feanor, who is/was an Noldo. Later copied by most
other "good" people (other elves, Numenor, Gondor...). Used on the
ring, as the inscription printed in the books shows
- The Cirth of Dearon, also know as Elf Runes (as it looks like
runes). Still used by the anti-Noldo Sindar of Thingol and their
descendants (to which Legolas and his family belonged), and in
modified for by the dwarves (Balins tomb inscription)
So Legolas would use Elf Runes, and so have looked at what he knows
about the ring inscription fromt ha point of view. "Not Elf-Runes"
could easily mean Tengwar.
> others have pointed out, Isildur wrote that, "they have no letters in
> Mordor for such subtle work", implying that they do have a grosser and less
> elegant form of writing.
Somthing developed for Orc use. But not of any use for Sauron himself.
> But, again, a lot of "implied"s and "seems to be"s.
That is often the case with Tolkien. We are used to it.
--
Neil Franklin, ne...@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer
- hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware
code generates the software, have you coded today?
T.T. Arvind
Taser <tas...@hotmail.com> did boldly declaim:
> But Legolas clearly states that he did not, as a habit, use Elvish
> characters. This would imply to me that there was a written form of Black
> Speech. I just haven't found any specific references to it.
What about this sentence in IV:7 ("Journey to the cross-roads"), in
describing the defaced statue of the king at the cross-roads:
"Upon its knees and mighty chair, and all about the pedestal, were idle
scrawls mixed with the foul symbols that the maggot-folk of Mordor used."
The reference to "foul symbols" seems to be a clear reference to a
separate script. Since the orcs of the dark tower (who presumably
made those scrawls) spoke a "debased form" of the black-speech, it seems
likely that their script was originally used for the black speech too.
Cheers,
Meneldil
Aris Katsaris
"Flame of the West" <Fo...@nospam.solinas.org> wrote in message
news:3DB4C70F...@nospam.solinas.org...
> Taser wrote:
>
> > So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on
> > the Ring?
>
> He had no need to invent his own script, as the Fëanorian
> script was invented by someone just as evil as Sauron himself.
Rather cruel to judge the entire life of Feanor only from a couple of his
actions in the end.
Aris Katsaris
Michael Lodge
Another possible explanation for this is that Leolas didn't know as much
about Sauron as he though. Aragorn replies to this saying 'Neither does
he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken', yet in RotK
(The Black Gate Opens), Gandalf speaks to someone who openly calls
himself 'The Mouth of Sauron'.
The mouth refers to Sauron again while he is talking 'But this time thou
hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what
comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the seat of Sauron the Great'.
The characters in the book don't know everything. If someone comments
about something outside his or her area of expertise, you have to take
into account the posiblity that the character may have missed something.
Vilhelm Sjoberg
> In the Council of Elrond, Gandalf quotes Isildur's answer to that
> question: "Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear
> as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It is
> fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in
> Mordor for such subtle work; ...".
>
> In ordinary language: The Elvish script was written with very fine
> lines and could condense a lot of letters in a small space.
I read the same sentence as saying that the Sauronic letters were rather
crude and ugly, and would look out-of-place on a work of such beauty as
a ring of power.
-Vilhelm
Bill O'Meally
"Vilhelm Sjoberg" <va...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3DB535B2...@cam.ac.uk...
I don't think there is such a thing as "Sauronic letters".
Bill O'Meally
"T.T. Arvind" <ttar...@vsnl.in> wrote in message
news:ap3a8c$9oj$1...@cpca7.uea.ac.uk...
From Appendix E:
"The Cirth in their older and simpler form spread eastward in the Second
Age, and became known to many peoples, to Men and Dwarves, and even to Orcs,
all of whom altered them to suit their purposes and according to their skill
or lack of it".
It sounds like the scrawling was probably a debased form of Cirth.
Stan Brown
>> lines and could condense a lot of letters in a small space.
>>
>This seems like the most likely answer;
Thank you for trimming quotes to just the specific part you're
responding to. I wish everyone did that.
But don't go too far, please: proper attribution should be part of
every follow-up.
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>Black-speech has no written characters.
Where do you get that, please?
Isildur says they have "no letters in Mordor for such subtle work".
That implies that there _is_ some written version of the Black
Speech; otherwise Isildur would have said "no letters in Mordor" and
stopped there.
Donald Shepherd
@hotmail.com says...
Couldn't it simply be a case similar to that of French and English,
where the characters are the same (we do have accents, etc, in English
as well), but the languages are different? Hence Legolas would
recognise them as Elf-runes, but nevertheless it is still the Black
Speech.
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_...@hotmail.com>
"To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid"
Bill O'Meally
"Stan Brown" <qx1...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.181f24477...@news.odyssey.net...
> Michael Cole <michae...@hansen.com> wrote in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> >Black-speech has no written characters.
>
> Where do you get that, please?
>
> Isildur says they have "no letters in Mordor for such subtle work".
> That implies that there _is_ some written version of the Black
> Speech; otherwise Isildur would have said "no letters in Mordor" and
> stopped there.
I don't think it implies anything of the sort.
Clearly, there *are* letters used by Sauron and his servants. The question
is whether they were created by him, or simply borrowed (and most likely
corrupted) from Elvish sources.
The appendices state that Orcs used a form of the Cirth. In addition, the
first sentence of Appendix E under "Writing" states that the scripts and
letters used in the Third Age were all ultimately of Eldarin origin.
Whether there was any form of writing of non-Elvish origin prior to the TA
is not clear, but doesn't seem likely, IMO.
the softrat
<donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Couldn't it simply be a case similar to that of French and English,
>where the characters are the same (we do have accents, etc, in English
>as well), but the languages are different? Hence Legolas would
>recognise them as Elf-runes, but nevertheless it is still the Black
>Speech.
We do have a great case of confusion here between Elven script and
Elven runes, don't we? (Tengwar vs. Cirith...)
The characters on the One Ring are *not* Elf-runes!
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
the Zulu Princess
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
My karma ran over my dogma.
Prai Jei
news:m4bt9.13575$DP6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Aragorn replies to this saying 'Neither does
> he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken', yet in RotK
> (The Black Gate Opens), Gandalf speaks to someone who openly calls
> himself 'The Mouth of Sauron'.
>
> The mouth refers to Sauron again while he is talking 'But this time thou
> hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what
> comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the seat of Sauron the
Great'.
Logical conclusion: Sauron is not Sauron's "right name".
Russ
<pvsto...@prai-jei.fsnet.co.uk> writes:
Of course it's not. No more than Morgoth was Melkor's real name.
Russ
D.G. Porter
So, is Sauron's "real" name Tevildo?
Donald Shepherd
sof...@pobox.com says...
> On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:59:46 +1000, Donald Shepherd
> <donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >Couldn't it simply be a case similar to that of French and English,
> >where the characters are the same (we do have accents, etc, in English
> >as well), but the languages are different? Hence Legolas would
> >recognise them as Elf-runes, but nevertheless it is still the Black
> >Speech.
>
> We do have a great case of confusion here between Elven script and
> Elven runes, don't we? (Tengwar vs. Cirith...)
>
> The characters on the One Ring are *not* Elf-runes!
Probably. There's a reason I usually stay out of Elven debates. :)
Care to fill me in on the difference?
Xaonon
<donald_...@hotmail.com> teithant i thiw hin:
> In article <mv3bruch7r1pc3oc8...@4ax.com>,
> sof...@pobox.com says...
>
> > We do have a great case of confusion here between Elven script and
> > Elven runes, don't we? (Tengwar vs. Cirith...)
> >
> > The characters on the One Ring are *not* Elf-runes!
>
> Probably. There's a reason I usually stay out of Elven debates. :)
> Care to fill me in on the difference?
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/cirth/
--
Xaonon, EAC Chief of Mad Scientists and informal BAAWA, aa #1821, Kibo #: 1
Visit The Nexus Of All Coolness (i.e. my site) at http://xaonon.dyndns.org/
"To fill a world with religion... is like littering the streets with loaded
guns. Do not be surprised if they are used." -- Richard Dawkins
Bill O'Meally
"the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:mv3bruch7r1pc3oc8...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:59:46 +1000, Donald Shepherd
> <donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >Couldn't it simply be a case similar to that of French and English,
> >where the characters are the same (we do have accents, etc, in English
> >as well), but the languages are different? Hence Legolas would
> >recognise them as Elf-runes, but nevertheless it is still the Black
> >Speech.
>
> We do have a great case of confusion here between Elven script and
> Elven runes, don't we? (Tengwar vs. Cirith...)
>
> The characters on the One Ring are *not* Elf-runes!
Maybe therein lies the answer to the confusion.
Tolkien states that Orcs used a form of Cirth, which was most likely
corrupted due to their lack of skill in such matters. AFAIK, no mention is
made in Tolkien's writings of the use of script (tengwar) by Sauron or his
servants (apart from the Ring inscription, of course).
It seems possible that the Cirth used by Sauron's servants (and possibly
Sauron himself on the rare occasion he may have had to write something), was
wholly unsuitable for the ring inscription. Cirth, we know was mainly used
for "inscribing names and brief memorials upon wood or stone" (appendix E).
Hence Isildur's comment that there were "no letters in Mordor for such
subtle work." If that was the case, Sauron would therefore use tengwar for
such subtle work as a Ring inscription. In that it was not in common use in
Mordor, it would have been used in its pure, uncorrupted form.
Just a theory.
Bill
Doug
Taser <tas...@hotmail.com> typed:
| The Ring-inscription is clearly described as being Black Speech, but
| written in Elvish script. Why so? Legolas clearly states at one point that,
| "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'", and from other
| quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black Speech.
|
| So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on
| the Ring?
|
| Just wonderin'
If I were to venture a guess, he probably wanted the people of middle earth afraid of the elves, which there are
some who are.
Bill O'Meally
"Doug" <dnpho...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:CLnt9.9429$071.8...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> If I were to venture a guess, he probably wanted the people of middle
earth afraid of the elves, which there are
> some who are.
>
I'm not sure I follow. Could you explain further?
Bill O'Meally
"NoName" <nom...@nomail.net> wrote in message
news:2ovbru8dqkmra2jv1...@4ax.com...
> No. At the time he forged the one ring he had no knowledge the three
> elven rings were made. He became aware of them when he donned The
> One, just as the bearers became aware of him, who he REALLY was and
> what his REAL intentions were. They then took off their rings and hid
> them, pissing Sauron off and launching a war.
>
I think you've got it the wrong way around. The One Ring was wrought in
secret. The Three Elvish Rings were no secret, although Sauron had no hand
in their making. True, they were hidden when Sauron put on the One.
Doug
Bill O'Meally <OMea...@wi.rr.com> typed:
Sauron is a deceiver, so, he may be deceiving the people of middle earth to think that the Elves helped in forming
the One Ring, which is a deception.
AC
I don't quite understand this. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are
you saying that Sauron wanted people to believe the Elves had the One Ring?
--
AC
Doug
AC <sp...@nospam.com.invalid> typed:
No.. I mean that he may have WANTED people to think that.
Dylonius Funk
"AC" <sp...@nospam.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:slrnarc6t...@ts1.alberni.net...
I think what he is saying is that he thinks that Sauron wanted to divide and
conquer. By useing an elcish script, it might create the impression to
others that the One was made by Elves, thus creating mistrust towards the
Firstborn.
AC
>
> No.. I mean that he may have WANTED people to think that.
Consider this. The Men of Middle Earth at that period of time were largely
under the sway of Sauron anyways (except in Eriador). The real powers of
the time were Gil-galad, the Elves of Eregion, the Numenorians and the
Dwarves of Khazad-dum. Obviously there was fairly close associations
between Gil-galad and Eregion, and between Eregion and Khazad-dum. I
personally don't believe that the Numenorians actually had any idea of the
Ruling Ring, or at the very least, of its importance. Once Sauron revealed
himself, he had no friends among the Elves. Many Men he already had under
his dominion. The Numenoreans were to be closely allied to Gil-galad, and
would eventually see Sauron as a threat to their own plans.
Once Sauron forged the Ring, it was an all or nothing affair. Either he did
succeed in dominating the Elves, as he had planned, or they would be aware
of his plans. The latter occurred. Sauron's plan was dominate the most
powerful of the Children of Illuvar, not to fool anybody into believing that
the Eldar were the real villains. Who was he going to convince? The Orcs?
The Men already under his dominion? The Dwarves of Khazad-dum, in so close
an alliance with Eregion? The Numenoreans?
--
AC
AC
>
> I think what he is saying is that he thinks that Sauron wanted to divide and
> conquer. By useing an elcish script, it might create the impression to
> others that the One was made by Elves, thus creating mistrust towards the
> Firstborn.
Ahhh... Well, the logical rebuttal at that point is that he didn't intend
for anybody else to possess the Ring, so what would have been the point of
doing it for them? He wasn't planning on giving it away, or even lending
it. I would imagine that the reason for using an Elvish script was due to
the essential purpose of dominating the Elves.
--
AC
Bill O'Meally
"Doug" <dnpho...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Irpt9.9725$071.8...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> || Sauron is a deceiver, so, he may be deceiving the people of middle
> || earth to think that the Elves helped in forming the One Ring, which is
> || a deception.
> |
> | I don't quite understand this. I'm not sure what you're saying here.
> | Are you saying that Sauron wanted people to believe the Elves had the
> | One Ring?
>
> No.. I mean that he may have WANTED people to think that.
But... the Elves *were* the people of ME (in large part).
Mika-Petri Lauronen
> Of course it's not. No more than Morgoth was Melkor's real name.
>
Neither were Gandalf, Curunir or Mithrandir Olorin's real names.
--
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then
you win.
- Mohandas Mahatma Gandhi
Mixu Lauronen, mpla...@paju.oulu.fi
Kristian Damm Jensen
>
> In news:59ot9.98600$om2.1...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com,
> Bill O'Meally <OMea...@wi.rr.com> typed:
> | "Doug" <dnpho...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> | news:CLnt9.9429$071.8...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> ||
> || If I were to venture a guess, he probably wanted the people of middle
> | earth afraid of the elves, which there are
> || some who are.
> ||
> | I'm not sure I follow. Could you explain further?
> Sauron is a deceiver, so, he may be deceiving the people of middle earth to think that the Elves helped in forming
> the One Ring, which is a deception.
Too farfetched. Very few people would ever see Sauron, even fewer would
be close enough to recognize the writings on the ring. Of these very
few, all would be in the service of Sauron already.
Why not stick to the explanation given by Isildur?
--
Kristian Damm Jensen | Feed the hungry at www.thehungersite.com
kristian-d...@cgey.com | Two wrongs doesn't make a right,
ICQ# 146728724 | but three lefts do.
Michael Lodge
Then Aragorn's comment wouldn't have been an argument against the S rune
referring to Sauron then would it?
TradeSurplus
>"Doug" <dnpho...@earthlink.net> wrote ...
>
>> || Sauron is a deceiver, so, he may be deceiving the people of middle
>> || earth to think that the Elves helped in forming the One Ring, which
is
>> || a deception.
>> |
>> | I don't quite understand this. I'm not sure what you're saying here.
>> | Are you saying that Sauron wanted people to believe the Elves had the
>> | One Ring?
>>
>> No.. I mean that he may have WANTED people to think that.
>
>But... the Elves *were* the people of ME (in large part).
That alone wouldn't negate Doug's point, even if true. Trying to make the
Elves of Lorien, Greenwood and even Lindon believe that those reckless
Elves of Eregion were involved in the creation of this great evil, maybe
even in league with Sauron could certainly have been a goal of Sauron,
especially after the great benefit Morgoth reaped from the treachery and
mutual distrust of the Elves in the First Age.
However, I think it is ridiculous to suppose that Sauron ever intended
anyone to read that writing except for himself. He certainly never
intended to lose the Ring and I doubt that he would even risk showing it
to an enemy closely enough to read it. If he wanted to make the people of
ME think that the Elves of Eregion were his allies there would be much
better, easier and less risky ways of doing so.
Trade.
BenignVanilla
news:Xns92AED80476BC3...@207.217.77.101...
> The Ring-inscription is clearly described as being Black Speech, but
> written in Elvish script. Why so? Legolas clearly states at one point
that,
> "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'", and from
other
> quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black Speech.
>
> So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on
> the Ring?
It seems to me that often in the books, characters quote elvish sayings, and
use elvin words. Could this not be a case of elvish just being the
'fashionable' script? IE calligraphy of sorts? Common speech just wouldn't
have been dramatic. Either that or Sauron didn't have Arial Condensed
installed on his PC.
BV.
Jim Deutch
Logical, but wrong. His name had been "Sauron" for ages. Literally.
Jim Deutch
--
"We must go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe
in tolerance and free speech." - David Brin
grasshopper
>ring...
*giggles goofily*
- kitz -
"I strike quickly, being moved." -Sampson
http://spinning_plates.tripod.com
Glenn Holliday
>
> Taser wrote:
>
> Another possible explanation for this is that Leolas didn't know as much
> about Sauron as he though. Aragorn replies to this saying 'Neither does
> he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken', yet in RotK
> (The Black Gate Opens), Gandalf speaks to someone who openly calls
> himself 'The Mouth of Sauron'.
The Sil says the Eldar called him Sauron. It also gives the name
Gorthaur. It may well be that Sauron's right name appears nowhere
in the published works.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Glenn Holliday
>
> In article <DNot9.9646$071.8...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, Doug wrote:
> > In news:59ot9.98600$om2.1...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com,
> > Bill O'Meally <OMea...@wi.rr.com> typed:
> >| "Doug" <dnpho...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >| news:CLnt9.9429$071.8...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >||
> >|| If I were to venture a guess, he probably wanted the people of middle
> >| earth afraid of the elves, which there are
> >|| some who are.
> >
> > the One Ring, which is a deception.
>
> I don't quite understand this. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are
> you saying that Sauron wanted people to believe the Elves had the One Ring?
I think Doug is saying the Ring is inscribed with Elvish characters
so that the peasantry, picking up the Ring from the dust on the road,
will look at the inscription and say "Aha! Elvish work! Since
this is an evil work, Elves are evil."
It has a certain poetic quality worthy of Sauron, but would not be
useful since Sauron never intended anybody else to hold the Ring
and find out in what script he inscribed it.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Jim Muller
wrote:
>In news:59ot9.98600$om2.1...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com,
>Bill O'Meally <OMea...@wi.rr.com> typed:
>| "Doug" <dnpho...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>| news:CLnt9.9429$071.8...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>|| If I were to venture a guess, he probably wanted the people of middle
>| earth afraid of the elves, which there are
>|| some who are.
>Sauron is a deceiver, so, he may be deceiving the people of middle earth to think that the Elves helped in forming
>the One Ring, which is a deception.
In FOTR, Gandalf explains to someone, either Frodo or the Council,
that the language was that of Mordor but the writing was Elvish
because they had no writing for such things in Mordor. Most likely
that Elven script was the best or only thing available at that time.
Lotho Tighfield of Tookbank
"Kristian Damm Jensen" <kristian-da...@MOVEcgey.com>
wrote :
>
> Too farfetched. Very few people would ever see Sauron, even fewer would
> be close enough to recognize the writings on the ring. Of these very
> few, all would be in the service of Sauron already.
>
> Why not stick to the explanation given by Isildur?
>
### Perhaps Sauron took a perverse glee in using the Elves' own high-born
language against them via a weapon of Utmost Evil ...
At any rate that is what I have come to think, after reading through all the
posts.
===
Lotho !
Troels Forchhammer
>
> Dylonius Funk wrote:
>>
>> I think what he is saying is that he thinks that Sauron
>> wanted to divide and conquer. By useing an elcish script,
>> it might create the impression to others that the One was
>> made by Elves, thus creating mistrust towards the Firstborn.
>
> Ahhh... Well, the logical rebuttal at that point is that he
> didn't intend for anybody else to possess the Ring, so what
> would have been the point of doing it for them?
It should be enough for others to see it - they wouldn't need
to hold it - much less wield or wear it.
I still agree that the theory is unlikely - I don't believe that
many people (prior to it being taken by Isildur) ever saw the
One Ring close enough to be able to read the writing, and
almost none of these would have been enemies (the only people
Sauron would have had any purpose for deceiving - it would be
better for him to have his own subjects believe that he made
the Ring himself).
> He wasn't planning on giving it away, or even lending it.
> I would imagine that the reason for using an Elvish script
> was due to the essential purpose of dominating the Elves.
What is wrong with Isildur's statement about the script
"for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work" -
I would even venture the guess that this Elven script was
the only letters available for this kind of work.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
"I'd like to know if I could compare you to a summer's day.
Because -- well, June 12th was quite nice, and..."
-- (Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
Bill O'Meally
"Lotho Tighfield of Tookbank" <i.l...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:afNt9.1865$6F4.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Ok folks. Let's keep this straight. The *language* was Black Speech, not
Elvish. The *characters* were Elven script or tengwar.
Bill O'Meally
"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.fk> wrote in message
news:3DB7D3ED...@ThisIsFake.fk...
> What is wrong with Isildur's statement about the script
> "for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work" -
> I would even venture the guess that this Elven script was
> the only letters available for this kind of work.
That's what I suggested earlier in this thread. Tolkien states that Orcs
used a (probably corrupted) form of Cirth (runes). That this angular system
was used mainly for carving brief messages on stone or wood, perhaps it was
not suitable for minute work like a ring inscription. Sauron, having no
other system of writing at his disposal therefore used tengwar, and in its
pure uncorrupted form.
Hence Isildur's statement.
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
> That's what I suggested earlier in this thread. Tolkien states that Orcs
> used a (probably corrupted) form of Cirth (runes). That this angular
system
> was used mainly for carving brief messages on stone or wood, perhaps it
was
> not suitable for minute work like a ring inscription. Sauron, having no
> other system of writing at his disposal therefore used tengwar, and in its
> pure uncorrupted form.
>
> Hence Isildur's statement.
I think that is probably the reason, and perhaps one shuld add to that that
the uncorrupted Elvish runes may have possessed a virtue absent in Orkish
scrawls.
Öjevind
Chocoholic
"Lotho Tighfield of Tookbank" <i.l...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:afNt9.1865$6F4.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
If he was among them for so long it seems unlikely that he 'hated' them just
yet. That came later. And remember, Sauron doesn't see _himself_ as evil.
The Orcs call all the forces of the West 'Rebels' in LotR, remember. Since
Sauron planned on having everything 'Elvish' at his disposal in the near
future, through that very Ring itself, he was just appropriating the Tengwar
a bit early. But the plan didn't work as he expected... and as in most cases
of greed denied he quickly came to hate what he could not have, the Elves
and their culture. A case of 'sour grapes' as it were. I wonder if he
considered removing the inscription somehow... :)
Aris Katsaris
"Russ" <mcr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021022162150...@mb-fl.aol.com...
> In article <ap4boi$pbk$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Prai Jei"
> <pvsto...@prai-jei.fsnet.co.uk> writes:
>
> >"Michael Lodge" <mlo...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
> >news:m4bt9.13575$DP6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >
> >
>
Or for that matter no more than Melkor was Melkor's real name, instead of
a title... We've known only one "real name" among the Valar and Maiar and
that's Orome's...
Question: "What does it mean?"
Answer: "Orome. To nothing else is it given - for I am Orome."
Quoting from memory.
Aris Katsaris
Aris Katsaris
"Glenn Holliday" <holl...@acm.org> wrote in message
news:3DB7237B...@acm.org...
In the Two Towers movie it seems that Orcs will call him "Zigur" when using
the Black Tongue... In Tolkien's writings "Zigur" was Sauron's Numenorean
name.
Aris Katsaris
Prai Jei
> >Logical conclusion: Sauron is not Sauron's "right name".
> >
>
> Of course it's not. No more than Morgoth was Melkor's real name.
>
No more than "Prai Jei" is mine.
David Flood
>In article <ap4boi$pbk$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Prai Jei"
><pvsto...@prai-jei.fsnet.co.uk> writes:
>
>>"Michael Lodge" <mlo...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
>>news:m4bt9.13575$DP6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>> Aragorn replies to this saying 'Neither does
>>> he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken', yet in RotK
>>> (The Black Gate Opens), Gandalf speaks to someone who openly calls
>>> himself 'The Mouth of Sauron'.
>>>
>>> The mouth refers to Sauron again while he is talking 'But this time thou
>>> hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what
>>> comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the seat of Sauron the
>>Great'.
>>
>>Logical conclusion: Sauron is not Sauron's "right name".
>>
>
>Of course it's not. No more than Morgoth was Melkor's real name.
Or Strider/Dunadan/Elessar that of Aragorn...
D.
Donald Shepherd
says...
> If he was among them for so long it seems unlikely that he 'hated' them just
> yet. That came later. And remember, Sauron doesn't see _himself_ as evil.
> The Orcs call all the forces of the West 'Rebels' in LotR, remember.
They do? Can I get a quote on this please?
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_...@hotmail.com>
"To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid"
David Flood
<donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <urgd5kg...@corp.supernews.com>, Choco...@Cocoa.org
>says...
>> If he was among them for so long it seems unlikely that he 'hated' them just
>> yet. That came later. And remember, Sauron doesn't see _himself_ as evil.
>> The Orcs call all the forces of the West 'Rebels' in LotR, remember.
>
>They do? Can I get a quote on this please?
Shagrat and his friend called them that, IIRC.
D.
Donald Shepherd
NIL_AON_SPAM...@hotmail.com says...
The one I immediately thought of was this one:
'Maybe, maybe! Then you'll fly off with our prisoners, and get all the
pay and praise in Lugbúrz, and leave us to foot it as best we can
through the Horse-country. No, we must stick together. These lands are
dangerous: full of foul rebels and brigands.' - Grishnakh, The Uruk-Hai,
TTT
But you seem to be referring to:
`You may well put your thinking cap on, if you've got one. It's no
laughing matter. No one, no one has ever stuck a pin in Shelob before,
as you should know well enough. There's no grief in that; but think-
there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other
damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the Great
Siege. Something has slipped.' - Gorbag, The Choices of Master Samwise,
TTT
Both of these I took to refer to rebel Orcs, since this seems to be a
fairly common occurance going by the goings on with the Orcs inside
Mordor ("That's cursed Rebel-talk", etc).
so_m...@yahoo.de
> > Dylonius Funk wrote:
> > He wasn't planning on giving it away, or even lending it.
> > I would imagine that the reason for using an Elvish script
> > was due to the essential purpose of dominating the Elves.
>
> What is wrong with Isildur's statement about the script
> "for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work" -
> I would even venture the guess that this Elven script was
> the only letters available for this kind of work.
Couldn`t it be that "they have no letters for such subtle work"
has nothing to do with the size of the letters?
I don`t think that Tolkien says so somewhere in his works, but maybe
Sauron had to use the elvish script to give the ring the "magic" powers.
Sounds somehow "logical" to me...
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
> > Shagrat and his friend called them that, IIRC.
>
> The one I immediately thought of was this one:
> 'Maybe, maybe! Then you'll fly off with our prisoners, and get all the
> pay and praise in Lugbúrz, and leave us to foot it as best we can
> through the Horse-country. No, we must stick together. These lands are
> dangerous: full of foul rebels and brigands.' - Grishnakh, The Uruk-Hai,
> TTT
>
> But you seem to be referring to:
> `You may well put your thinking cap on, if you've got one. It's no
> laughing matter. No one, no one has ever stuck a pin in Shelob before,
> as you should know well enough. There's no grief in that; but think-
> there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other
> damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the Great
> Siege. Something has slipped.' - Gorbag, The Choices of Master Samwise,
> TTT
>
> Both of these I took to refer to rebel Orcs, since this seems to be a
> fairly common occurance going by the goings on with the Orcs inside
> Mordor ("That's cursed Rebel-talk", etc).
I think the term was used with a wider application. During the Second Age,
Sauron tried to become master of all Middle-earth, and he kept that ambition
when he arose again. That meant that all people who resisted him were
dismissed as rebels. I should say that the first statement you quote
definitely contains a reference to those who resisted Sauron during the
Second Age.
Öjevind
Troels Forchhammer
>
> The one I immediately thought of was this one:
and
> 'there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous
> than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the
> bad old times, since the Great Siege.' - Gorbag, The
> Choices of Master Samwise, TTT
>
> Both of these I took to refer to rebel Orcs
Why on earth should it refer to rebel Orcs in Rohan?
And the other quote refers to rebels "that ever walked since
the bad old times, since the Great Siege", which to me sounds
like the enemies also.
A rebel is a person who fights against resists, or refuses
allegiance to, established government, authority or control.
As both Morgoth and Sauron probably saw themselves as the
rightful rulers of Middle-earth, this could easily have rubbed
off on their Orcs, whom would then see anyone resisting them
or fighting against them (and their master) as a rebel.
That is the way I've always understood both of these
passages - the Rohirrim and Sam as rebels against the rightful
rule of the Orcs and their master (whether Sauron or Saruman).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers
exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will
instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more
bizarrely inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already
happened."
Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
lazarus
<donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>'Maybe, maybe! Then you'll fly off with our prisoners, and get all the
>pay and praise in Lugbúrz, and leave us to foot it as best we can
>through the Horse-country. No, we must stick together. These lands are
>dangerous: full of foul rebels and brigands.' - Grishnakh, The Uruk-Hai,
>TTT
They got paid? What sort of bizarre economy could have existed in
Mordor?
--
lazarus
"Therefore, my Harry, Be it thy course to busy giddy minds with
foreign quarrels; that action, hence borne out, may waste the memory
of the former days." -- King Henry IV, Part ii Act 4, Scene 5
Pradera
>>'Maybe, maybe! Then you'll fly off with our prisoners, and get all the
>>pay and praise in Lugb?rz, and leave us to foot it as best we can
>>through the Horse-country. No, we must stick together. These lands are
>>dangerous: full of foul rebels and brigands.' - Grishnakh, The Uruk-Hai,
>>TTT
>
> They got paid? What sort of bizarre economy could have existed in
> Mordor?
>
Maybe it was like the coinage for Roman Legions in Africa: apart from food
and housing, they were provided with special brothel money. That's how they
settled they brothel time between themselves.
At least that's what they said on Discovery.
--
Pradera
---
Akai suna no ue ni saita shiroi hana
Daiyou no mashita de yureru chiisana kage
Tori no mure ga naiteiru
Douzo Douzo Shiawase ni
lazarus
>On 25 pa? 2002, lazarus <lazaru...@msn.com> scribbled loosely:
>
>>>'Maybe, maybe! Then you'll fly off with our prisoners, and get all the
>>>pay and praise in Lugb?rz, and leave us to foot it as best we can
>>>through the Horse-country. No, we must stick together. These lands are
>>>dangerous: full of foul rebels and brigands.' - Grishnakh, The Uruk-Hai,
>>>TTT
>>
>> They got paid? What sort of bizarre economy could have existed in
>> Mordor?
>>
>
>Maybe it was like the coinage for Roman Legions in Africa: apart from food
>and housing, they were provided with special brothel money. That's how they
>settled they brothel time between themselves.
>At least that's what they said on Discovery.
I'm now looking for the brain bleach. Orcish brothels. brr.......
TradeSurplus
>NIL_AON_SPAM...@hotmail.com says...
>> , Donald Shepherd<donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >, Choco...@Cocoa.org says...
>> >> If he was among them for so long it seems unlikely that he 'hated'
them just
>> >> yet. That came later. And remember, Sauron doesn't see _himself_ as
evil.
>> >> The Orcs call all the forces of the West 'Rebels' in LotR, remember.
>> >
>> >They do? Can I get a quote on this please?
>>
>> Shagrat and his friend called them that, IIRC.
>
>
>Both of these I took to refer to rebel Orcs, since this seems to be a
>fairly common occurance going by the goings on with the Orcs inside
>Mordor ("That's cursed Rebel-talk", etc).
I always assumed that these referred to rebels against the 'rightful'
authority of Sauron and Morgoth, i.e. primarily the Elves and Edain and
their allies.
In Rohan orcs of Moria, Saruman and Sauron all worked together so it seems
unlikely that there was an additional batch of rebel orcs out there,
especially since we se no other orcs whereas we see plenty of Rohirrim.
In your second quote it seems even clearer that Gorbag is referring to
elves and tarks as rebels. We know that the orcs think that Sam is either
an elf or a tark so Gorbag's phrasing "any *other* damned rebel" seems to
point to the rebels being the same type of creature as Sam, i.e. elves or
tarks.
Trade.
Donald Shepherd
says...
> Donald Shepherd wrote:
> >
> > The one I immediately thought of was this one:
> > 'These lands are dangerous: full of foul rebels and
> > brigands.' - Grishnakh, The Uruk-Hai, TTT
>
> and
>
> > 'there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous
> > than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the
> > bad old times, since the Great Siege.' - Gorbag, The
> > Choices of Master Samwise, TTT
> >
> > Both of these I took to refer to rebel Orcs
>
> Why on earth should it refer to rebel Orcs in Rohan?
The in-fighting within the Orc troop.
<snip>
I'm probably wrong. I'm just explaining why I interpreted those
passages this way.
David Flood
<donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I meant the second, but the first does as well ;)
You've got to understand the imperialist mindset [1] - they have to
provide themselves with a justification - ie not even Orcs are
completely bad.
So, the Free Peoples of the West are simply 'rebels', in the mindset
of the servants of Mordor.
David
[1] and (of course) there is an Irish angle to this as well - from the
first moment an Anglo-Norman expedition set foot on these shores, the
native Irish were to be inculcated in English own minds as the "King's
rebels" - a vital psychological victory in establishing a successful
colony.
Diocletian2001
>>there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other
>>damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the Great
>>Siege.
>>TTT
If the 'Great Siege' and the 'bad old times' are an Orcish reference to the
Last Alliance, then the term 'rebel' in context does seem to refer to the
Allies.
Tancred
David Flood
<jonme...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:04:43 GMT, lazarus <lazaru...@msn.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:38:27 +1000, Donald Shepherd
>><donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>'Maybe, maybe! Then you'll fly off with our prisoners, and get all the
>>>pay and praise in Lugbúrz, and leave us to foot it as best we can
>>>through the Horse-country. No, we must stick together. These lands are
>>>dangerous: full of foul rebels and brigands.' - Grishnakh, The Uruk-Hai,
>>>TTT
>>
>>They got paid? What sort of bizarre economy could have existed in
>>Mordor?
>
>Venture capitalism ...
LOL. Sauron (or maybe Morgoth?) was the first example of a
'Globalisation' agenda ;)
D.
sophia
<lazaru...@msn.com> writes
>
>They got paid? What sort of bizarre economy could have existed in
>Mordor?
>
economy undoubtedly). Far from the military areas close to the mountains
and Gondor there were vast farms around Lake Nurnen producing food for
the armies and slaves of Sauron. There were also what one might term
state industries arming and provisioning Sauron's war machine. It also
seems fairly likely that there was money and pay - the folk of Mordor
would need it as a method of exchange amongst themselves, and it's
another good means of gaining control and obedience which it seems
unlikely His Nastiness would have overlooked.
--
Sophia
Faith in Fabulousness
www.arxana.demon.co.uk/
Troels Forchhammer
>
> Tro...@ThisIsFake.fk says...
>>
>> Donald Shepherd wrote:
>>>
>>> The one I immediately thought of was this one:
>>> 'These lands are dangerous: full of foul rebels and
>>> brigands.' - Grishnakh, The Uruk-Hai, TTT
>>
>> and
>>
>>> 'there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous
>>> than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the
>>> bad old times, since the Great Siege.' - Gorbag, The
>>> Choices of Master Samwise, TTT
>>>
>>> Both of these I took to refer to rebel Orcs
>>
>> Why on earth should it refer to rebel Orcs in Rohan?
That _was_ a bit patronizing wasn't it? I'm sorry -
didn't mean it that way. Would you accept a piece of
CHOKLIT as apology?
I was just surprised by your interpretation.
> The in-fighting within the Orc troop.
I know of course that Orcs would freely call other Orcs
'rebels', and that in-fighting was possible. It has however
never occurred to me (which may of course be my error) that
this should be the intention in those two cases.
The first one is actually either by Uglúk or one of his
men in response to Grishnákh, and the 'we' that must 'stay
together' are both the Mordor Orcs led by Grishnákh, the
band from Moria and the Isengarders led by Uglúk. When all
these are included in the 'we', the only hostile group in
in 'these lands' would be the Rohirrim - the 'foul rebels
and brigands' IMO.
In the second text the 'someone' who is loose is actually
Sam, but Gorbag thinks there is 'a large warrior loose,
Elf most likely' - and it is _this_ perceived enemy Gorbag
calls 'more dangerous than any other damned rebel ...' -
any other indicating that this particular enemy is _also_
a 'damned rebel'.
In My Opinion!
(Better to be safe than sorry - I'm discussing the
interpretation of an English text with a person born to
English ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
Stan Brown
>It also
>seems fairly likely that there was money and pay - the folk of Mordor
>would need it as a method of exchange amongst themselves, and it's
>another good means of gaining control and obedience which it seems
>unlikely His Nastiness would have overlooked.
Could you explain a bit more why money would be needed internally in
Mordor? Every single person in Mordor (except Sauron himself) was
Sauron's slave. they would not need to pay each other for things, I
think, because they would be acting under orders: higher-ranking
slaves would demand things and lower-ranking slaves would provide
them.
Nazi Germany was a much less developed dictatorship than Mordor, but
I don't think the Gestapo bought things, did they?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
"Honesty always gives you the advantage of surprise."
-- /Yes, Prime Minister/
Bob Thurman
There was a line somewhere about the forging of the ring that
went something like this.." he learned the craft (ring making)
from the elves" this surprised me because I would have thought
dwarves would have the craft.
Since the craft was learned from the elves, elf writing would be
a necessary part of the magic required!
buzard
"Taser" <tas...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92AED80476BC3...@207.217.77.101...
> The Ring-inscription is clearly described as being Black Speech, but
> written in Elvish script. Why so? Legolas clearly states at one point
that,
> "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'", and from
other
> quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black Speech.
>
> So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on
> the Ring?
>
> Just wonderin'
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
Stan Brown <qx1...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>Could you explain a bit more why money would be needed internally in
>Mordor? Every single person in Mordor (except Sauron himself) was
>Sauron's slave. they would not need to pay each other for things, I
>think, because they would be acting under orders: higher-ranking
>slaves would demand things and lower-ranking slaves would provide
>them.
Ah, but resources are not unlimited, nor is man-power (or orc-power),
everyone needs food, and the production and allocation of other things
must be balanced against that, and so on. Orcs are certainly portrayed
as having individual capacity for greed, and being able to pursue extra-
curricular activities and (base) desires. I doubt even Sauron could
micromanage all of that. Money is such a convenient way of allocating
resources...
>Nazi Germany was a much less developed dictatorship than Mordor, but
>I don't think the Gestapo bought things, did they?
You don't think the Gestapo had a budget, and salaries? And kept
receipts and filled out paperwork?
--
Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree
www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say
Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea,
GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll)
Tamim
snip
> Could you explain a bit more why money would be needed internally in
> Mordor? Every single person in Mordor (except Sauron himself) was
> Sauron's slave.
I thought a big portion of the humans weren't slaves.
snip
Pradera
>> Could you explain a bit more why money would be needed internally in
>> Mordor? Every single person in Mordor (except Sauron himself) was
>> Sauron's slave.
>
> I thought a big portion of the humans weren't slaves.
In Mordor? What part would that be, apart from Mouth of Sauron? I don't
recall any free human settlements on Gorgoroth plains...
lazarus
>On 26 pa? 2002, Tamim <hall...@hotmail.com> scribbled loosely:
>
>>> Could you explain a bit more why money would be needed internally in
>>> Mordor? Every single person in Mordor (except Sauron himself) was
>>> Sauron's slave.
>>
>> I thought a big portion of the humans weren't slaves.
>
>In Mordor? What part would that be, apart from Mouth of Sauron? I don't
>recall any free human settlements on Gorgoroth plains...
My books are in storage. Were they human or orcish settlements around
the Sea of Nurnen (is that name right?)?
Stan Brown
>On 26 Oct 2002 12:00:00 GMT, Pradera <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote:
>>In Mordor? What part would that be, apart from Mouth of Sauron? I don't
>>recall any free human settlements on Gorgoroth plains...
>
>My books are in storage. Were they human or orcish settlements around
>the Sea of Nurnen (is that name right?)?
"Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields
away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by
the dark sad waters of Lake Núrnen"
So I don't know whether they were Men or Orcs, but they were
definitely slaves.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
Bill O'Meally
"Pradera" <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote in message
news:Xns92B38E6596FB0p...@130.133.1.4...
> On 26 pa? 2002, Tamim <hall...@hotmail.com> scribbled loosely:
>
> >> Could you explain a bit more why money would be needed internally in
> >> Mordor? Every single person in Mordor (except Sauron himself) was
> >> Sauron's slave.
> >
> > I thought a big portion of the humans weren't slaves.
>
> In Mordor? What part would that be, apart from Mouth of Sauron? I don't
> recall any free human settlements on Gorgoroth plains...
Not on Gorgoroth, but there were "great slave- worked fields away south in
the wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark sad waters of
Lake Nurnen..." 'The Land of Shadow'
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
Pradera
>> >> Could you explain a bit more why money would be needed internally
>> >> in Mordor? Every single person in Mordor (except Sauron himself)
>> >> was Sauron's slave.
>> >
>> > I thought a big portion of the humans weren't slaves.
>>
>> In Mordor? What part would that be, apart from Mouth of Sauron? I
>> don't recall any free human settlements on Gorgoroth plains...
>
> Not on Gorgoroth, but there were "great slave- worked fields away
> south in the wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark
> sad waters of Lake Nurnen..." 'The Land of Shadow'
"Slave-worked."
I wish people would read what is written.
lazarus
wrote:
>lazarus <lazaru...@msn.com> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>On 26 Oct 2002 12:00:00 GMT, Pradera <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote:
>>>In Mordor? What part would that be, apart from Mouth of Sauron? I don't
>>>recall any free human settlements on Gorgoroth plains...
>>
>>My books are in storage. Were they human or orcish settlements around
>>the Sea of Nurnen (is that name right?)?
>
>"Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields
>away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by
>the dark sad waters of Lake Núrnen"
>
>So I don't know whether they were Men or Orcs, but they were
>definitely slaves.
Thanks, Stan. If it's slaves, it sort of implies non-Orcs, though,
for some reason. At least to me it does.
jsa...@ecn.ab.ca
: Could you explain a bit more why money would be needed internally in
: Mordor? Every single person in Mordor (except Sauron himself) was
: Sauron's slave. they would not need to pay each other for things, I
: think, because they would be acting under orders: higher-ranking
: slaves would demand things and lower-ranking slaves would provide
: them.
They used money in Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, and ancient Egypt,
where everything was owned by the Pharaoah. Mordor was an evil society,
but not a bizarre one like the Crete of the Linear B tablets.
: Nazi Germany was a much less developed dictatorship than Mordor, but
: I don't think the Gestapo bought things, did they?
Yes, they did. They were issued special money which they could buy
cheaply, but which had to be accepted at par.
John Savard
Bill O'Meally
"Pradera" <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote in message
news:Xns92B3B641D504pr...@130.133.1.4...
> On 26 paz 2002, "Bill O'Meally" <OMea...@wi.rr.com> scribbled loosely:
>
> >> >> Could you explain a bit more why money would be needed internally
> >> >> in Mordor? Every single person in Mordor (except Sauron himself)
> >> >> was Sauron's slave.
> >> >
> >> > I thought a big portion of the humans weren't slaves.
> >>
> >> In Mordor? What part would that be, apart from Mouth of Sauron? I
> >> don't recall any free human settlements on Gorgoroth plains...
> >
> > Not on Gorgoroth, but there were "great slave- worked fields away
> > south in the wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark
> > sad waters of Lake Nurnen..." 'The Land of Shadow'
>
> "Slave-worked."
>
> I wish people would read what is written.
I did read what you wrote. I was *supporting* you. Dork! ;-)
O. Sharp
>>"Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields
>>away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by
>>the dark sad waters of Lake Nurnen"
>>
>>So I don't know whether they were Men or Orcs, but they were
>>definitely slaves.
> Thanks, Stan. If it's slaves, it sort of implies non-Orcs, though,
> for some reason. At least to me it does.
Another thing that implies (but doesn't prove) non-Orcs is Aragorn's
leaving them in a happy state of self-governance. _Return_, p. 247
hardback, just after Aragorn gets crowned: "...and the slaves of Mordor
he released and gave to them all the lands about Lake Nurnen to be their
own." My instincts tell me he probably wouldn't have encouraged a bunch
of Orcs to live next door. :)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
o...@drizzle.com ...On the bright side, I now have a telnet
connection and a copy of the books here at work!
Helpful, since I'm stuck here all the time
anyway... :)
Stan Brown
>for some reason. At least to me it does.
I think _everyone_ who worked for Sauron was slaves. Remember that
he claimed to be both king and god -- and was a lot closer to being
right than say the Roman Emperors.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
AC
> I'm not an expert, but I seem to recall something.
>
> There was a line somewhere about the forging of the ring that
> went something like this.." he learned the craft (ring making)
> from the elves" this surprised me because I would have thought
> dwarves would have the craft.
>
> Since the craft was learned from the elves, elf writing would be
> a necessary part of the magic required!
You've gotten it backwards. It was Sauron's lore that permitted Celebrimbor
and his smiths to forge the Rings of Power. It is precisely for that reason
that Sauron could make an attempt at dominating them by forging the Ruling
Ring.
--
AC
sophia
>Could you explain a bit more why money would be needed internally in
>Mordor?
For exchange amongst themselves, to reward good service, differentiate
rank and hierarchy, encourage recruitment through promises of loot etc..
Money is a powerful means of social control and manipulation and hence
very useful to a ruler.
We know from the book that the Orcs are paid and receive rewards for
tasks.
>Every single person in Mordor (except Sauron himself) was
>Sauron's slave.
This is true in all severe autocracies and dictatorships.
>they would not need to pay each other for things, I
>think, because they would be acting under orders: higher-ranking
>slaves would demand things and lower-ranking slaves would provide
>them.
That would seem likely in the armed forces which is all we ever see of
Mordor or Orcish society. It is after all how current armed forces work.
>
>Nazi Germany was a much less developed dictatorship than Mordor, but
>I don't think the Gestapo bought things, did they?
>
Yes, they did - everything from typewriters and floor polish to
equipment for mass murder. The invoices for the latter helped hang some
of those responsible for Nazi crimes.
Stan Brown
><qx1...@bigfoot.com> writes
>
>>Could you explain a bit more why money would be needed internally in
>>Mordor?
>
>For exchange amongst themselves, to reward good service,
The reward for good service was not getting whipped (or killed).
I'll certainly accept it if you can show me any place in LotR where
Sauron's Orcs are paid a salary, but I sure can't remember it. On
the other hand, there are lots of instances of poor performance
being punished with whipping or summary execution.
> differentiate rank and hierarchy,
Same point, I think: the higher ranks were the ones holding the
whips.
>encourage recruitment through promises of loot etc..
Recruitment? These were slaves, not mercenaries.
>Money is a powerful means of social control and manipulation and hence
>very useful to a ruler.
I agree, under ordinary circumstances. But these circumstances were
not ordinary. All the factors you talk about seem appropriate where
the "recruits" have some sort of choice; Sauron's Orcs had none, and
his human slaves had none.
>We know from the book that the Orcs are paid and receive rewards for
>tasks.
From where in the book, please? I'm not saying there is no such
statement, but I don't recall it.
>>Nazi Germany was a much less developed dictatorship than Mordor, but
>>I don't think the Gestapo bought things, did they?
>>
>Yes, they did - everything from typewriters and floor polish to
>equipment for mass murder. The invoices for the latter helped hang some
>of those responsible for Nazi crimes.
I didn't know that; thanks.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Morgil
Stan Brown kirjoitti viestissä ...
>sophia <sop...@arxana.demon.co.uk> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>We know from the book that the Orcs are paid and receive rewards for
>>tasks.
>
>From where in the book, please? I'm not saying there is no such
>statement, but I don't recall it.
Silmarillion at least. Beren and Fingon were both
worth 50000 goldpieces each IIRC.
Morgil
Michael Cole
> lazarus <lazaru...@msn.com> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>> On 26 Oct 2002 12:00:00 GMT, Pradera <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote:
>>> In Mordor? What part would that be, apart from Mouth of Sauron? I
>>> don't recall any free human settlements on Gorgoroth plains...
>>
>> My books are in storage. Were they human or orcish settlements
>> around the Sea of Nurnen (is that name right?)?
>
> "Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields
> away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by
> the dark sad waters of Lake Núrnen"
>
> So I don't know whether they were Men or Orcs, but they were
> definitely slaves.
"...slave-worked..." The cotton farms of the old Southern US States were
slave-worked, but that didn't make all people of the south, slaves.
--
Regards,
Michael Cole
Michael Cole
> sophia <sop...@arxana.demon.co.uk> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>> In article <MPG.1823d8f12...@news.odyssey.net>, Stan Brown
>> <qx1...@bigfoot.com> writes
>>
>>> Could you explain a bit more why money would be needed internally in
>>> Mordor?
>>
>> For exchange amongst themselves, to reward good service,
>
> The reward for good service was not getting whipped (or killed).
> I'll certainly accept it if you can show me any place in LotR where
> Sauron's Orcs are paid a salary, but I sure can't remember it.
AFAIR, nowhere in the book does it show any character going to the toilet,
either.
Its a book. Whipping and killing is slightly more exciting than economics
and shopping (for most people, anyway).
Michael Cole
> On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:38:27 +1000, Donald Shepherd
> <donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 'Maybe, maybe! Then you'll fly off with our prisoners, and get all
>> the pay and praise in Lugbúrz, and leave us to foot it as best we can
>> are dangerous: full of foul rebels and brigands.' - Grishnakh, The
>> Uruk-Hai, TTT
>
> Mordor?
Also, let's not forget that Sauron exercised control over more than Mordor.
--
Regards,
Michael Cole