CotW LOTR Bk2 Ch7: The Mirror of Galadriel

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Henriette

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May 31, 2004, 12:33:01 PM5/31/04
to
Rejoice! For in spite of the fact that I cannot receive any posts from
RABT/AFT which have been sent after 27 May, I nevertheless post my
Chapter in time. I hope, I will be able to join in the discussions at
some point!

Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
Book 2, Chapter 7: The Mirror of Galadriel

To read previous Chapter of the Week discussions, or to sign up to
introduce a future chapter, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org

Chapter Summary
===============

Haldir leads the Company to Caras Galadon, the City of the Galadrim
where the Lord Celeborn and Galadriel, the Lady of Lórien dwell.
They follow the city's encircling walls and enter the gates. In
the mightiest of all the trees within the city, the Lord and Lady
live in a house built amidst its branches. They both stand up tall
to greet their guests after the manner of the Elves, and Celeborn
welcomes each of the companions by name. When he asks whether there
has been some change of counsel, because he was expecting nine
companions, Galadriel says the missing one is Gandalf and asks
urgently
to see him. The full tale of the travellers is now told. Celeborn
speaks
angry words about Dwarves stirring up evil in Moria and about Gandalf
falling into folly. Galadriel comforts the sad Gimli and reveals she
and
her "wisest of all the Elves of Middle-earth" husband, know about the
Company's quest. Without words she questions each of them. None but
Aragorn and Legolas can long endure her glance. Afterwards all members
of the Company feel like they have been offered a choice between a
shadow full of fear that lies ahead, and something that they
greatly desire, and their choice would have remained secret and only
known to themselves.
[1-6]

During their stay in Lothlórien they do not see much of the Lord and
the
Lady, nor of the other Elves, as Haldir has gone back to the fences of
the North and few of the other Elves speak any but their own silvan
tongue. Legolas is away much among the Galadrim, or walks with Gimli.
The Companions mourn Gandalf, as do the Elves, who make songs about
'Mithrandir'. Frodo also puts 'something of his sorrow into halting
words'("When Evening in the Shire was Grey") to which song Sam adds a
verse.
[7-9]

One evening Frodo and Sam are walking together, discussing Elves and
the
fact that they both feel they have to depart soon. Sam says he'd
dearly
love to see some Elf-magic and Frodo wishes very much to see the Lady
of
the Elves again. As if in answer to their words, the Lady
Galadriel approaches and it is clear she knows what they have been
discussing. She offers them to look into the Mirror of Galadriel: "For
this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not
understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same
word of the deceits of the Enemy". Sam agrees to have a look and says
in
an aside to Frodo that he'd not mind a 'glimpse of what's going on at
home'. After some initial scenes [which the reader recognises from
later
on in LOTR], Sam sees Ted Sandyman cutting down trees which 'didn't
ought to be felled' and the 'poor old gaffer (...) with his bits of
things on a barrow'. He is devestated, but Galadriel helps him realise
he cannot and will not turn back now.
Frodo is in doubt whether the first person he sees in the Mirror
is Saruman, or Gandalf clothed in white. He sees many more scenes that
he (and the experienced Tolkien reader)in some way knows to be parts
of
the great history in which Frodo has become involved. When he prepares
to draw away, Frodo suddenly perceives a terrible roving Eye and knows
that he is one of the many things it seeks. Meanwhile the Ring hanging
upon a chain about his neck grows heavier than a stone. Galadriel
helps
him to withdraw his gaze and stresses the importance of Frodo's quest,
even though when he succeeds, Lothlórien will fade. Frodo offers
Galadriel the Ring, but although she admits having desired it, she
"passes the test" and refuses it. She says she perceives the Dark Lord
and knows his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves, but
the door to her thought is still closed to him.
When the Elves' favorite star Eärendil shines so brightly that the
figure of the Elven-Lady casts a dim shadow on the ground, Frodo first
perceives Nenya, one of the Three Elvenrings, on Galadriel's finger.
Frodo asks, why he cannot see all the other ring-bearers and know
their
thoughts. Galadriel answers because he has not tried and advises him
never to do that, as the rings give power according to the measure of
each possessor. His sight has already grown keener though, she says,
which Sam proves by denying having seen Nenya.
[10-18]

Comments and thoughts, remarks, contributions, questions, and trivia.
=====================================================================

I chose this Chapter because it is a beautiful and relaxed chapter in
between the more stressful ones, and there is much wisdom in it. Maybe
also to somewhat protect the Lady and especially the Lord...., and
Galadriel's Mirror, from being ridiculed from the first post
onwards.......

[1]a) The dominating colours in Caras Galadon seem to be green, white,
silver and gold. Look at everything that's white: a road beautifully
paved with white stone (marble? small white pebbles? square white
tiles? white round stones the size of large oranges?), a white bridge,
a white ladder, white cloaks for the elves, the Lord and the Lady are
clad wholly in white, the white Ring Nenya.
b) An *oval* shaped room in the house of Galadriel and Celeborn: isn't
that nice!

[2] How tall do we think the Lord and Lady are? I think about 1.90 m.

[3]a)None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure Galadriel's
glance.
Do they have the stronger personalities and/or the clearest
conscience?
b) [OT}As an aside, since I recently attended a reading on
intercultural
differences in non-verbal communication, I am much more aware of how
much the amount of time one spends looking at a person and the
directness with which one looks, are influenced by one's culture (and
within the culture, by gender). In some cultures looking directly at a
person one does not know is considered very rude. In my culture, not
looking into the other's eyes, at least part of the time, when
adressing
him/her, is considered a sign of dishonesty or cowardice. Looking
overlong is not good though (rude, invasion of privacy).

[4] We only are certain of what Galadriel offers to *Sam* instead of a
dangerous journey: the chance of flying back home to a nice little
hole
with a bit of garden. Merry seems to have had a similar but slightly
different suggestion, on which he does
not wish to elaborate. Does anyone have an idea what he is hinting at?
Frodo says: "But whatever came into my mind then I will keep there".
What came into his mind: passing on the Ring and returning to Bilbo?
Keeping the Ring? Yet something else?
IMO it is suggested that Galadriel offers Boromir the Ring. What does
she offer the other companions to test them? (Now here's a chance
for some wild speculation!)

[5] We've discussed the number-order issue before. This time
*Celeborn* says: "It is eight and thirty years(...)".

[6] My favorite quote from this chapter appears in this part:

'Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of
Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dûm in
Elder
Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone.' She looked
upon
Gimli, who sat glowering and sad, and she smiled. And the Dwarf,
hearing
the names given in his own ancient tongue, looked up and met her eyes;
and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart of an
enemy
and saw there love and understanding. Wonder came into his face, and
then he smiled in answer.
He rose clumsily and bowed in dwarf-fashion, saying: "Yet more fair is
the living land of Lórien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the
jewels that lie beneath the earth!"'

[7] In this chapter it is suggested their stay in Lothlórien only
lasts
a couple of days. Later on in FOTR it is suggested it has been about a
month. Another sign of how peaceful life is there, is that 'Nothing
seems to be going on, and nobody seems to want it to.' Amazing.

[8] The increasing interaction between Legolas and Gimli that started
in the previous chapter, now takes shape into the form of a
friendship,
"and the others wondered at this change". It reminds one of the
friendships that exist, and persist, between individuals, even though
their countries are at war. it reminds me of the hug I saw a rabbi
and an imam give each other at a celebration.

[9] What is so attractive about (in this case Gandalf's much
praised) quick-temperedness?

[10]When Frodo expresses his desire to see the Lady of the Elves
again,
his wish is granted immediately, as are Sam's wishes to see some
Elf-magic and to have a glimpse of what is going on at home. Galadriel
materialises as soon as they utter their wish, and she even says to
Sam: "Did you not say you wished to see Elf-magic?" It is unlikely she
overheard them. So is this a coincidence? Did JRRT make up things like
clearsightedness, telepathy and magic devices like the Palantír and
Galadriel's Mirror, to happen in an imaginary world, or maybe did he
believe there is something more between heaven
and earth?

[11]I can't see why Galadriel lets Frodo and Sam have a look in her
Mirror, apart from showing Sam some Elf-magic and introducing us to a
wonderfully magic device. It leaves Frodo trembling though, and Sam
devastated, and I can't see what they have learned to their advantage.

[12]There are some resemblances between Galadriel's Mirror and the
Palantiri. They can both show what is/has been. I am not sure whether
the Palantiri also gave information about the future. In both devices,
the strength of Will from the person looking in it, decided how much
was
revealed. The Mirror was not a means of communication, though,
therefore
one was also less likely to be deceived by it. Although when one left
it
free to work, one wasn't sure if the images were from the past,
present
or future, or even never came to be. Both Mirror and Palantiri remind
me
of the Wicans (and gipsies) Crystle Ball. Maybe Jette can tell us, how
that one works:-)

[13] When Frodo looks into Galadriel's Mirror and perceives the Eye,
"The Ring that hung upon its chain about his neck grew heavy, heavier
than a great stone". Amazing, this consistency of reactions from
persons
and even objects Prof. Tolkien keeps up.
Does anyone *not* think Frodo sees Gandalf, but instead Saruman?

[14] Galadriel can read Sauron's mind, but he can't read hers, thanks
to
Nenya, I would say.

[15] Eärendil is bright like the full moon! for the Elven-lady casts a
dim shadow on the ground because of its bright light.

[16] Sometimes people post to AFT/RABT, asking for suggestions for a
Tolkien-name to give their baby. I think Nenya is very nice and not at
all over the top.

[17] Now that I'm at it, I would like to share some names
from the Italian LOTR: Il Signore degli Anelli.
You can look at it as riddles, if you like, some easy, some difficult:
Frodo della Contea-Aragorn figlio di Arathorn-Il terribile Anello del
Potere-Portatore dell'Anello-Dama Galadriel-la Terra di Mezzo-
il Bianco Consiglio-gli Elfi, gli Hobbit (both plural)-Pipino-la Torre
Oscura-Gran Burrone-il Flagello di Durin-Terre Selvagge-il Nemico.

Some quotes from the Italian Book 2 Chapter 7:

* "Mithrandir, Mithrandir, Oh, Grigio Pellegrino!"
* "A me parve tutto estremamente bizzarro", disse Boromir.
* "Queste sono notizie assai funeste", disse Celeborn, "le più funeste
che siano giunte qui in lunghi anni pieni di sofferenze". (I like the
drama:
'lunghi anni pieni di sofferenze')

[18] Sometimes it looks as if there is some form of consensus
amongst the male posters of ABT/RABT as to the contents of the
relationship between Galadriel and Celeborn. IMO this contents is very
suggestively summarised by David Salo in his treatment of Book
2/Chapter
7 in the e-text version. He calls Celeborn Dullborn, (to which I can
agree. I cannot imagine why Galadriel calls him the wisest of all
Elves,
especially because she keeps correcting him, or what she sees in
him)but
he also writes: 'The Lord was tall and darkbearded, hairy-chested like
a
satyr and brimming with virility'.......
(OMG I said I chose this chapter to rescue Celeborn from being
ridiculed!
How whimsical are we women!)

My favorite quote from *David's* chapter, called: 'Galadriel's
Birdbath':-) is:

"Wow," said Frodo. "You are beautiful and sexy, Lady Galadriel. I
will give you the One Ring, if you want it."
Galadriel tossed her head in the gesture known to the Elves as
the
'maewest'. "That's enough from you," she replied. "Maybe a lot of
other girls would fall for that line, but not me. You see, already
all
love me and despair."

from: http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/book/book2_07.htm

Please everyone, do add your own points of interest to the discussion!

Henriette

beautiful and terrible
as the morning and the night
fair as the sea, the sun
and the snow upon the mountain
dreadful as the storm, as lightning
stronger than the foundations
of the earth!
all shall love me and despair!

Taemon

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May 31, 2004, 3:16:39 PM5/31/04
to
Henriette wrote:

> Rejoice!

<rejoices>

> Afterwards all members of the
> Company feel like they have been offered a choice between
> a shadow full of fear that lies ahead, and something that
> they greatly desire,

Which I thought rather cruel. "On the one side is fear and
despair. But see, you can choose the other side! Here is what you
wish for most. What do you choose?" But you can't have that. It
is a lie.

T.


AC

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May 31, 2004, 4:40:45 PM5/31/04
to
On 31 May 2004 09:33:01 -0700,

I think its strength of character, or more specifically, their stature.
Legolas was an Elf and Aragorn was one of the Dunedain.

> [4] We only are certain of what Galadriel offers to *Sam* instead of a
> dangerous journey: the chance of flying back home to a nice little
> hole
> with a bit of garden. Merry seems to have had a similar but slightly
> different suggestion, on which he does
> not wish to elaborate. Does anyone have an idea what he is hinting at?
> Frodo says: "But whatever came into my mind then I will keep there".
> What came into his mind: passing on the Ring and returning to Bilbo?
> Keeping the Ring? Yet something else?
> IMO it is suggested that Galadriel offers Boromir the Ring. What does
> she offer the other companions to test them? (Now here's a chance
> for some wild speculation!)

I'm fairly certain, in my own mind, that Galadriel offered Frodo the chance
to put down the burden and return to Rivendell.

Boromir, I'm pretty sure, was offered the Ring. It seems about this time
that Boromir begins acting oddly. That leads to the question, did
Galadriel's testing inadvertently make things worse?

Aragorn was probably offered the chance to remain in Lorien, probably with
Arwen.

> [6] My favorite quote from this chapter appears in this part:
>

> 'Dark is the water of Kheled-zāram, and cold are the springs of
> Kibil-nāla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dūm in


> Elder
> Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone.' She looked
> upon
> Gimli, who sat glowering and sad, and she smiled. And the Dwarf,
> hearing
> the names given in his own ancient tongue, looked up and met her eyes;
> and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart of an
> enemy
> and saw there love and understanding. Wonder came into his face, and
> then he smiled in answer.
> He rose clumsily and bowed in dwarf-fashion, saying: "Yet more fair is
> the living land of Lórien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the
> jewels that lie beneath the earth!"'

At this point we see that Gimli is quite extraordinary among Dwarves. I
think, in this act, and in his friendship with Legolas, we see the healing
of ancient wounds that had dated back to the Fall of Doriath.

> [9] What is so attractive about (in this case Gandalf's much
> praised) quick-temperedness?

Gandalf's best wit came during those hot tempered moments.

> [11]I can't see why Galadriel lets Frodo and Sam have a look in her
> Mirror, apart from showing Sam some Elf-magic and introducing us to a
> wonderfully magic device. It leaves Frodo trembling though, and Sam
> devastated, and I can't see what they have learned to their advantage.

Quite frankly, I think her main interest was in Frodo, but Frodo and Sam
were a package deal. I really think she wanted to see what Frodo would see
in the Mirror.

>
> [12]There are some resemblances between Galadriel's Mirror and the
> Palantiri. They can both show what is/has been. I am not sure whether
> the Palantiri also gave information about the future. In both devices,
> the strength of Will from the person looking in it, decided how much
> was
> revealed. The Mirror was not a means of communication, though,
> therefore
> one was also less likely to be deceived by it. Although when one left
> it
> free to work, one wasn't sure if the images were from the past,
> present
> or future, or even never came to be. Both Mirror and Palantiri remind
> me
> of the Wicans (and gipsies) Crystle Ball. Maybe Jette can tell us, how
> that one works:-)

I do remember a passage much later when Gandalf says he wishes he could have
looked into the Palantir and seen the hand and mind of Feanor at work (I'm
paraphrasing here, I don't have the book near me).

> [14] Galadriel can read Sauron's mind, but he can't read hers, thanks
> to
> Nenya, I would say.

I'm sure Nenya is part of it, but Galadriel was clearly a pretty powerful
Noldo herself, one of the mightiest of the Eldar.

--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com

Prai Jei

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May 31, 2004, 5:17:37 PM5/31/04
to
Henriette (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<be50318e.0405...@posting.google.com>:

> [4] ... IMO it is suggested that Galadriel offers Boromir the Ring.
I've always envisaged Galadriel offering Boromir that he be crowned King of
Gondor.

> He calls Celeborn Dullborn, (to which I can
> agree. I cannot imagine why Galadriel calls him the wisest of all
> Elves, especially because she keeps correcting him, or what she
> sees in him)

Galadriel speak with forked tongue? Or with tongue in cheek?

--
Paul Townsend
I put it down there, and when I went back to it, there it was GONE!

Interchange the alphabetic elements to reply

Stan Brown

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May 31, 2004, 5:27:00 PM5/31/04
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"Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:

>Which I thought rather cruel. "On the one side is fear and
>despair. But see, you can choose the other side! Here is what you
>wish for most. What do you choose?" But you can't have that. It
>is a lie.

I respectfully disagree.

Moral choices are moral choices, judged on what the chooser then
knows.

Galadriel's tests of the Company forced them to think about why they
were in the Quest and what kind of people they were. Most moral
temptations do.

In the legend of Jesus in the 40 days in the desert, Satan takes him
up to a high mountain and offers him all the kingdoms of earth. Do
you think Jesus said no because the kingdoms weren't Satan's to
give? No, he said no because his mission was not to be a ruler.

The best-known example for this newsgroup is when Yavanna asked
Fëanor to break the Silmarils so that the Two Trees could be healed.
He said no, and "all one it may seem whether Fëanor had said yea or
nay to Yavanna; yet had he said yea at the first, ... it may be that
his after deeds would have been other than they were." That's
exactly the point: he made a moral choice, and while the facts were
such that his choice made no direct difference, his own state of
mind is revealed in the choice. He chose to "go it alone" and not to
work with the Valar, and his rebellion and the deaths of countless
Elves and Men followed.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm

Glenn Holliday

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May 31, 2004, 1:33:36 PM5/31/04
to
Henriette wrote:
>
> Rejoice! For in spite of the fact that I cannot receive any posts from
> RABT/AFT which have been sent after 27 May, I nevertheless post my
> Chapter in time. I hope, I will be able to join in the discussions at
> some point!

Yay Henriette!

> [3]a)None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure Galadriel's
> glance.
> Do they have the stronger personalities and/or the clearest
> conscience?

They were certainly the most accustomed to Elvish ways.

--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org


Glenn Holliday

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May 31, 2004, 2:21:05 PM5/31/04
to
Henriette wrote:
>
> [15] Eärendil is bright like the full moon! for the Elven-lady casts a
> dim shadow on the ground because of its bright light.

It doesn't have to be as bright as the full moon. This is another
indication that Tolkien noticed things about the night sky.

Venus sometimes is bright enough to cast a shadow. I've never
seen it. Astronomy books in which I find this claim emphasize
that you have to be under a very dark sky to see a
Venus shadow. Skies were much darker when Tolkien wrote this
passage. I would guess he included this detail because he
had seen a Venus shadow himself.

--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org


ste...@nomail.com

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May 31, 2004, 5:39:27 PM5/31/04
to
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
: In the legend of Jesus in the 40 days in the desert, Satan takes him
: up to a high mountain and offers him all the kingdoms of earth. Do
: you think Jesus said no because the kingdoms weren't Satan's to
: give? No, he said no because his mission was not to be a ruler.

Satan is often called "The Prince of the Earth" and according to
many theologians the kingdom's were Satan's to give.

Personally I have never understood what Galadriel was up to.
It is not well explained, especially regarding Boromir. Up
to that point other than questioning the Council, which hardly
seems such a terrible thing, he has done nothing to suggest he
wants the Ring.

Stephen

Christopher Kreuzer

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May 31, 2004, 5:58:03 PM5/31/04
to
AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I do remember a passage much later when Gandalf says he wishes he
> could have looked into the Palantir and seen the hand and mind of
> Feanor at work (I'm paraphrasing here, I don't have the book near me).

Well, unsurprisingly, it is in the 'The Palantir' chapter... :-)

Gandalf is talking about the palantiri to Pippin as they ride to Minas
Tirith, and here he is specifically talking about the palantir of
Orthanc that he recently presented to Aragorn:

"'Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could
not wrench it from him and turn it where I would - to look across the
wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the
unimaginable mind and hand of Feanor at their work, while both the White
Tree and the Golden were in flower!' He sighed and fell silent."

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Michael Cole

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May 31, 2004, 9:57:47 PM5/31/04
to
"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:be50318e.0405...@posting.google.com

> Rejoice! For in spite of the fact that I cannot receive any posts from
> RABT/AFT which have been sent after 27 May, I nevertheless post my
> Chapter in time. I hope, I will be able to join in the discussions at
> some point!
>
> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
> Book 2, Chapter 7: The Mirror of Galadriel

[SNIP]


> [3]a)None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure Galadriel's
> glance.
> Do they have the stronger personalities and/or the clearest
> conscience?

Actually, the point that most seemed incongrous to me was that the
relationship between Aragorn and C&G seemed to be so understated. Now, I
wasn't expecting a, "Hello Gran and Gramps", but he was effectively "dating"
their granddaughter - I would have expected some more friendly a greeting.
I know that they are reserved, but still, he is effectlively part of the
family...


--
Regards,

Michael Cole
(Partly toungue in cheek, if anyone can't tell...)


Henriette

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Jun 1, 2004, 2:35:45 PM6/1/04
to
ste...@nomail.com wrote:

> Personally I have never understood what Galadriel was up to.
> It is not well explained, especially regarding Boromir. Up
> to that point other than questioning the Council, which hardly
> seems such a terrible thing, he has done nothing to suggest he
> wants the Ring.

I am also on Boromir's side, but for different reasons, because I think he
does want the Ring. At this point in the story, it appears sheer 'folly to
throw away' the Ring, because we don't know as yet that Frodo will succeed
his Quest against all odds. Boromir thinks of his kinsmen that, as we can
see it at this point of the story, are almost certain to all die. Who can
hold it against him that he, not being divine, at least wants to give it a
try with the Ring?

Henriette

Henriette

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Jun 1, 2004, 2:48:32 PM6/1/04
to
AC wrote:

(Don't we snip anymore, Aaron?)

> I'm fairly certain, in my own mind, that Galadriel offered Frodo the chance
> to put down the burden and return to Rivendell.

I think so too.

> Boromir, I'm pretty sure, was offered the Ring.

Yes.

> Aragorn was probably offered the chance to remain in Lorien, probably with
> Arwen.

Yes, a nice idea!

> Quite frankly, I think her main interest was in Frodo, but Frodo and Sam
> were a package deal. I really think she wanted to see what Frodo would see
> in the Mirror.
>

But why? She could already read Sauron's mind.

> > [14] Galadriel can read Sauron's mind, but he can't read hers, thanks

> > Nenya, I would say.
>
> I'm sure Nenya is part of it, but Galadriel was clearly a pretty powerful
> Noldo herself, one of the mightiest of the Eldar.

Yes. I have to do some introspection to see why I think she owed it to Nenya....

Henriette

Henriette

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Jun 1, 2004, 2:51:08 PM6/1/04
to
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> Gandalf is talking about the palantiri to Pippin as they ride to Minas
> Tirith, and here he is specifically talking about the palantir of
> Orthanc that he recently presented to Aragorn:
>
> "'Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could
> not wrench it from him and turn it where I would - to look across the
> wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the
> unimaginable mind and hand of Feanor at their work, while both the White
> Tree and the Golden were in flower!' He sighed and fell silent."

That would indeed be a priceless tool, that could contrive that!

Henriette

AC

unread,
Jun 1, 2004, 2:54:03 PM6/1/04
to
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 18:48:32 GMT,
Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> AC wrote:
>
> (Don't we snip anymore, Aaron?)

My apologies. I had planned on doing it, got so involved in this excellent
CotW, and then posted without snipping the summary. I would have cancelled
and reposted, but cancelling is now so hit-and-miss that I didn't bother.

>> Quite frankly, I think her main interest was in Frodo, but Frodo and Sam
>> were a package deal. I really think she wanted to see what Frodo would see
>> in the Mirror.
>
> But why? She could already read Sauron's mind.

Frankly, I think that's a bit of hyperbole on her part (Galadriel was
nothing if not proud, and maybe even a little arrogant still). She was, I'm
sure, wise enough to know Sauron's general plans and desires. But I really
doubt, for instance, that she knew the precise moment, for instance, when
Sauron planned on striking out at Minas Tirith.

If she could have had that degree of insight, then why wouldn't she have
known really critical things like when Sauron questioned Gollum, or when he
was sending the Nazgul into Eriador, or that he was in communication with
Saruman?

--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com

Kristian Damm Jensen

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Jun 1, 2004, 4:14:26 PM6/1/04
to
held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote in message news:<be50318e.0405...@posting.google.com>...

<snip>

> [2] How tall do we think the Lord and Lady are? I think about 1.90 m.

Galadriel is 6 feet 4 inches, according to UT, Numenorean Linear
Measures. If I know my conversion that means roughly 2.10 m. Celeborn
would be at least as tall, I believe. His name means "silver-tall".
Same source.

> [3]a)None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure Galadriel's
> glance.
> Do they have the stronger personalities and/or the clearest
> conscience?

A clear conscience and, I think, a clear purpose. They knew what they
were doning, and why, and they felt no urge to do otherwise. Contrary
to the hobbits (except Frodo) who don't know what they are doing, has
a dim understanding of why and would much rather be sitting in a cozy
armchair in front of a fire, brandishing a pibe and a mug.

<snip>

> [6] My favorite quote from this chapter appears in this part:
>

> 'Dark is the water of Kheled-zāram, and cold are the springs of
> Kibil-nāla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dūm in


> Elder
> Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone.' She looked
> upon
> Gimli, who sat glowering and sad, and she smiled. And the Dwarf,
> hearing
> the names given in his own ancient tongue, looked up and met her eyes;
> and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart of an
> enemy
> and saw there love and understanding. Wonder came into his face, and
> then he smiled in answer.
> He rose clumsily and bowed in dwarf-fashion, saying: "Yet more fair is
> the living land of Lórien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the
> jewels that lie beneath the earth!"'

Yup. Leads up to my favourite of the next chapter...

<snip>

Regards,
Kristian

Andy Cooke

unread,
Jun 1, 2004, 5:35:35 PM6/1/04
to
Henriette wrote:
[snip]

> [2] How tall do we think the Lord and Lady are? I think about 1.90 m.
>

From Unfinished Tales, "Disaster of the Gladden Fields", Appendix:
Numenorean Linear Measures:

"...The Numenorean ranga was slightly longer than our yard,
approximately 38 inches ...

...Thus two rangar was often called 'man-high', which at thirty-eight
inches gives an average height of six feet four inches ...

...Galadriel, 'the tallest of the women of the Eldar of whom tales
tell', was said to be man-high, but it is noted 'according to the
measure of the Dunedain and the men of old' indicating a height of six
feet four inches."

So Galadriel was 6 feet 4, or 1.93m. So your guess was pretty damn close.

Incidentally, Elendil was "more than man-high by nearly half a ranga",
or nearly 7 feet 11 inches (2.41m).
Elendil the Tall? Elendil the ruddy Tower that Walks, more like!

And there were taller Elves - Turgon, King of Gondolin was "the Tallest
the Children of the World, save Thingol" (according to the notes at
the end of "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin").

I hereby name them "Turgon the Skyscraper" and "Thingol the Orbital
Beanstalk"

--
Andy Cooke

Shanahan

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Jun 2, 2004, 12:04:05 AM6/2/04
to
AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> firmly declared:
> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:

<snip>


>> But why? She could already read Sauron's mind.
>
> Frankly, I think that's a bit of hyperbole on her part
> (Galadriel was nothing if not proud, and maybe even a little
> arrogant still). She was, I'm sure, wise enough to know
> Sauron's general plans and desires. But I really doubt, for
> instance, that she knew the precise moment, for instance, when
> Sauron planned on striking out at Minas Tirith.
> If she could have had that degree of insight, then why wouldn't
> she have known really critical things like when Sauron
> questioned Gollum, or when he was sending the Nazgul into
> Eriador, or that he was in communication with Saruman?

Galadriel explains that she can read Sauron's mind, but only that
part of his mind that concerns the Elves. In the Mirror scene.

- Ciaran S.
---------------------------------------------------------
Ros.: What are you playing at?
Guild.: Words, words. They're all we have to go on.
- t.stoppard

aelfwina

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Jun 1, 2004, 9:51:39 PM6/1/04
to

"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:be50318e.0405...@posting.google.com...

> Rejoice! For in spite of the fact that I cannot receive any posts from
> RABT/AFT which have been sent after 27 May, I nevertheless post my
> Chapter in time. I hope, I will be able to join in the discussions at
> some point!
>
> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
> Book 2, Chapter 7: The Mirror of Galadriel
>
> To read previous Chapter of the Week discussions, or to sign up to
> introduce a future chapter, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org
>
> Chapter Summary
> ===============

(snip of summary)


>
> Comments and thoughts, remarks, contributions, questions, and trivia.
> =====================================================================
>
> I chose this Chapter because it is a beautiful and relaxed chapter in
> between the more stressful ones, and there is much wisdom in it. Maybe
> also to somewhat protect the Lady and especially the Lord...., and
> Galadriel's Mirror, from being ridiculed from the first post
> onwards.......
>
> [1]a) The dominating colours in Caras Galadon seem to be green, white,
> silver and gold. Look at everything that's white: a road beautifully
> paved with white stone (marble? small white pebbles? square white
> tiles? white round stones the size of large oranges?), a white bridge,
> a white ladder, white cloaks for the elves, the Lord and the Lady are
> clad wholly in white, the white Ring Nenya.
> b) An *oval* shaped room in the house of Galadriel and Celeborn: isn't
> that nice!

I've always thought of the "golden" being the dominant color in Lothlorien,
but now I see that it *is* white. I doubt if it will change my mental
picture, though, after 36 years. Nice bit of observation.

The "Oval Room"? LOL; as an American that has connotations for me.


>
> [2] How tall do we think the Lord and Lady are? I think about 1.90 m.
>
> [3]a)None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure Galadriel's
> glance.
> Do they have the stronger personalities and/or the clearest
> conscience?

I think it is because Legolas is an Elf; not only that but Thranduil's
son--he endured his father's gaze. And Aragorn was raised by Elrond, and
also had previous acquaintance with Galadriel. He was probably somewhat
used to her.

> b) [OT}As an aside, since I recently attended a reading on
> intercultural
> differences in non-verbal communication, I am much more aware of how
> much the amount of time one spends looking at a person and the
> directness with which one looks, are influenced by one's culture (and
> within the culture, by gender). In some cultures looking directly at a
> person one does not know is considered very rude. In my culture, not
> looking into the other's eyes, at least part of the time, when
> adressing
> him/her, is considered a sign of dishonesty or cowardice. Looking
> overlong is not good though (rude, invasion of privacy).
>
> [4] We only are certain of what Galadriel offers to *Sam* instead of a
> dangerous journey: the chance of flying back home to a nice little
> hole
> with a bit of garden. Merry seems to have had a similar but slightly
> different suggestion, on which he does
> not wish to elaborate. Does anyone have an idea what he is hinting at?
> Frodo says: "But whatever came into my mind then I will keep there".
> What came into his mind: passing on the Ring and returning to Bilbo?
> Keeping the Ring? Yet something else?
> IMO it is suggested that Galadriel offers Boromir the Ring. What does
> she offer the other companions to test them? (Now here's a chance
> for some wild speculation!)

I imagine Merry's additional temptation might have included something to do
with Buckland and its prosperity, or perhaps Estella Bolger. I would imagine
Frodo would be tempted by a chance to turn back the clock to before he knew
anything about the Ring. You notice that there is no hint about Pippin's
temptation. Interesting.

>
> [5] We've discussed the number-order issue before. This time
> *Celeborn* says: "It is eight and thirty years(...)".
>
> [6] My favorite quote from this chapter appears in this part:
>
> 'Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of
> Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dûm in
> Elder
> Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone.' She looked
> upon
> Gimli, who sat glowering and sad, and she smiled. And the Dwarf,
> hearing
> the names given in his own ancient tongue, looked up and met her eyes;
> and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart of an
> enemy
> and saw there love and understanding. Wonder came into his face, and
> then he smiled in answer.
> He rose clumsily and bowed in dwarf-fashion, saying: "Yet more fair is
> the living land of Lórien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the
> jewels that lie beneath the earth!"'

I love this scene as well. It is not merely the beauty of Galadriel that
takes Gimli's heart, but her kindness to him in his distress.


>
> [7] In this chapter it is suggested their stay in Lothlórien only
> lasts
> a couple of days. Later on in FOTR it is suggested it has been about a
> month. Another sign of how peaceful life is there, is that 'Nothing
> seems to be going on, and nobody seems to want it to.' Amazing.

This is a theme of the timelessness of Faerie; but most especially, I think
it has to do with Nenya.


>
> [8] The increasing interaction between Legolas and Gimli that started
> in the previous chapter, now takes shape into the form of a
> friendship,
> "and the others wondered at this change". It reminds one of the
> friendships that exist, and persist, between individuals, even though
> their countries are at war. it reminds me of the hug I saw a rabbi
> and an imam give each other at a celebration.

I like the slow burgeoning of their friendship, and that their differences
remain.

>
> [9] What is so attractive about (in this case Gandalf's much
> praised) quick-temperedness?

It showed his "human" side, the part of him that was able to participate in
the frailties of the form he had assumed.


>
> [10]When Frodo expresses his desire to see the Lady of the Elves
> again,
> his wish is granted immediately, as are Sam's wishes to see some
> Elf-magic and to have a glimpse of what is going on at home. Galadriel
> materialises as soon as they utter their wish, and she even says to
> Sam: "Did you not say you wished to see Elf-magic?" It is unlikely she
> overheard them. So is this a coincidence? Did JRRT make up things like
> clearsightedness, telepathy and magic devices like the Palantír and
> Galadriel's Mirror, to happen in an imaginary world, or maybe did he
> believe there is something more between heaven
> and earth?

It is interesting that the Elves do *not* think of this as magic, though
they are aware that other races do think of it that way. It makes one
wonder just what the Elves think it *is* if not magic?

>
> [11]I can't see why Galadriel lets Frodo and Sam have a look in her
> Mirror, apart from showing Sam some Elf-magic and introducing us to a
> wonderfully magic device. It leaves Frodo trembling though, and Sam
> devastated, and I can't see what they have learned to their advantage.

It was perhaps another test. If it was, it rather backfired on her.


>
> [12]There are some resemblances between Galadriel's Mirror and the
> Palantiri. They can both show what is/has been. I am not sure whether
> the Palantiri also gave information about the future. In both devices,
> the strength of Will from the person looking in it, decided how much
> was
> revealed. The Mirror was not a means of communication, though,
> therefore
> one was also less likely to be deceived by it. Although when one left
> it
> free to work, one wasn't sure if the images were from the past,
> present
> or future, or even never came to be. Both Mirror and Palantiri remind
> me
> of the Wicans (and gipsies) Crystle Ball. Maybe Jette can tell us, how
> that one works:-)
>
> [13] When Frodo looks into Galadriel's Mirror and perceives the Eye,
> "The Ring that hung upon its chain about his neck grew heavy, heavier
> than a great stone". Amazing, this consistency of reactions from
> persons
> and even objects Prof. Tolkien keeps up.
> Does anyone *not* think Frodo sees Gandalf, but instead Saruman?
>
> [14] Galadriel can read Sauron's mind, but he can't read hers, thanks
> to
> Nenya, I would say.

She seems to indicate such. But she was pretty powerful anyway, so it was
probably a combination. I think the fact that Sauron was uncertain as to
who actually held the three might also have been a factor.


>
> [15] Eärendil is bright like the full moon! for the Elven-lady casts a
> dim shadow on the ground because of its bright light.

It just goes to show that it is more than an ordinary star.

Dave Barlow

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Jun 2, 2004, 4:06:59 AM6/2/04
to
During a perfect moment of peace at 31 May 2004 21:39:27 GMT,
ste...@nomail.com interrupted with:

>Personally I have never understood what Galadriel was up to.
>It is not well explained, especially regarding Boromir. Up
>to that point other than questioning the Council, which hardly
>seems such a terrible thing, he has done nothing to suggest he
>wants the Ring.

My take is that Galadriel had seen all of her closest family, as well
as their relatives and many others, destroyed by pride and arrogance
regarding works of the enemy. Galadriel herself had been touched by
this doom on her bloodline. She simply wanted to know if the
Fellowship where 'up to it' and if any of them might betray the cause.

To this end she plays on what each person wants the most to see if
they have the moral fibre to ignore the lure of the Ring. All but one
passes the test.
--
While the Hobbits may be proud of spreading the "art" of smoking
pipe-weed, I would imagine that nowadays the Shire might be the seen of many
a class action lawsuit.Aaron Clausen on news://alt.fan.tolkien

Cirbryn

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Jun 2, 2004, 4:29:36 AM6/2/04
to
held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote in message news:<be50318e.0405...@posting.google.com>...

<big snip>



> [16] Sometimes people post to AFT/RABT, asking for suggestions for a
> Tolkien-name to give their baby. I think Nenya is very nice and not at
> all over the top.

Just thought I'd toss in from the peanut gallery that we named our
(now 8 month old) daughter Linden Ellen Tarr, which tranlates pretty
well to Princess Starsong. We were considering Stringornothing if she
was a boy, so it's probably just as well.

Dirk Thierbach

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Jun 2, 2004, 6:34:28 AM6/2/04
to
Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
> Book 2, Chapter 7: The Mirror of Galadriel

Thanks, Henriette. Good job.

> Frodo is in doubt whether the first person he sees in the Mirror
> is Saruman, or Gandalf clothed in white. He sees many more scenes that
> he (and the experienced Tolkien reader)in some way knows to be parts
> of the great history in which Frodo has become involved.

I think I can place Sam's scenes, but I am not sure about some of Frodo's,
starting with the above one. The figure has a *white* staff and is clad
in white, and is walking alone on a long road. Is the color of the
staffs of Sauron or Gandalf ever mentioned? Anyway, it cannot be
Gandalf the Grey before his return. It is unlikely to be Gandalf the
White after his return, because he probably wouldn't walk alone on a long
road. My best guess so far is Saruman after leaving Isendgard, on his
way to the Shire. But what about Wormtongue?

What is the black ship in the Storm? Elendil escaping the Drowning of
Numenor? The "wide river through the populous city" might describe
Osigiliath. But what is the fortress with seven towers? Tirion?

> b) An *oval* shaped room in the house of Galadriel and Celeborn: isn't
> that nice!

I would expect the wood-elves to use round, "organic" shapes.

> b) [OT}As an aside, since I recently attended a reading on
> intercultural differences in non-verbal communication, I am much
> more aware of how much the amount of time one spends looking at a
> person and the directness with which one looks, are influenced by
> one's culture (and within the culture, by gender).

Interesting. Thanks.

> [11]I can't see why Galadriel lets Frodo and Sam have a look in her
> Mirror, apart from showing Sam some Elf-magic and introducing us to a
> wonderfully magic device. It leaves Frodo trembling though, and Sam
> devastated, and I can't see what they have learned to their advantage.

I think Sam has learned that he has to make a choice, and he chooses
to stay with Frodo. Frodo has been given hints to the outcome of the
quests, though he cannot understand them. Maybe his confrontation
with Sauron is also important, though I couldn't clearly say why.

> I am not sure whether the Palantiri also gave information about the
> future.

IIRC, only of the present and past.

> In both devices, the strength of Will from the person looking in it,
> decided how much was revealed.

Will seems to be very important in "magic", be it Rings, Mirrors, or
Crystal Orbs.

> [14] Galadriel can read Sauron's mind, but he can't read hers,
> thanks to Nenya, I would say.

I would say the reason is Sauron doesn't have the One Ring in his power.
With it, he could.

> [17] Now that I'm at it, I would like to share some names
> from the Italian LOTR: Il Signore degli Anelli.
> You can look at it as riddles, if you like, some easy, some difficult:

I don't know any Italien, but guessing is fun :-) But knowing Latin
and French probably helps. So here's my try:

> Frodo della Contea
Frodo of the Shire

> Aragorn figlio di Arathorn
Aragorn, son of Arathorn

> Il terribile Anello del Potere
The terribble Ring of Power

> Portatore dell'Anello
Bearer of the Ring

> Dama Galadriel
Lady Galadriel

> la Terra di Mezzo
Middle Earth

> il Bianco Consiglio
The White Council

> gli Elfi, gli Hobbit (both plural)
Too easy :-)

> Pipino
Pippin

> la Torre Oscura
the Dark Tower

> Gran Burrone
Hm. No idea about Burrone.

> il Flagello di Durin
Hm. Durin's Bane, maybe? In German, "Flagellanten" are monks who
hurt themselves ritually.

> Terre Selvagge
Hm. Wilderland? If "selvagge" = french "sauvage".

> il Nemico.
No idea.

> * "Mithrandir, Mithrandir, Oh, Grigio Pellegrino!"

"Mithrandir, Mithrandir, O Pilgrim Grey!"

> * "A me parve tutto estremamente bizzarro", disse Boromir.

"To me it seemed exceedingly strange"", said Boromir.

> * "Queste sono notizie assai funeste", disse Celeborn, "le più funeste
> che siano giunte qui in lunghi anni pieni di sofferenze".

"These are evil tidings," said Celeborn, "the most evil that
have been spoken here in long years full of grievous deeds."

(Of course, I cheated with last two quotes by comparing them to the
text in the chapter. After I found them, I can now match the words in the
last. Before, I couldn't :-)

- Dirk

Troels Forchhammer

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Jun 2, 2004, 7:53:14 AM6/2/04
to
in <slrncbn62d.2k0....@alder.alberni.net>,
AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:

>
> On 31 May 2004 09:33:01 -0700,
> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>

<snip>

>> IMO it is suggested that Galadriel offers Boromir the Ring. What does
>> she offer the other companions to test them? (Now here's a chance
>> for some wild speculation!)
>
> I'm fairly certain, in my own mind, that Galadriel offered Frodo the
> chance to put down the burden and return to Rivendell.

Yes, I can't see anything else that Frodo would wish for more than this.

> Boromir, I'm pretty sure, was offered the Ring. It seems about
> this time that Boromir begins acting oddly.

And Sam saw it, I believe, as he told Faramir, "it's my opinion that in
Lórien he first saw clearly what I guessed sooner: what he wanted. From
the moment he first saw it he wanted the Enemy's Ring!"

> That leads to the question, did Galadriel's testing inadvertently
> make things worse?

Going by Sam's explanation (which I think is true - he may occasionally
take some time getting there, but he rarely strays), I'd say not
particularly. Whether she had tested him or not, he had a long time in
Lórien to brood over his position, and I think that he would have
realised it before leaving Lórien anyway. Only if his realisation could
have been delayed enough so that he couldn't have screwed himself up to
the point where he would try to take the Ring before it went East would
it have made a difference, but I don't believe that.

> Aragorn was probably offered the chance to remain in Lorien, probably
> with Arwen.

Probably, yes.

And Legolas? A place among the Galadhrim?
Merry and Pippin were probably offered variations of Sam's theme: return
to the Shire, a nice wife and the 'rulership' of their respective
families.
Gimli ... he's the difficult one, IMO. The testing occurs /after/ his
exchange of pleasantries with Galadriel, and who's to say what his heart
desired in that moment? Lordship of Moria so that he could live close to
Lothlórien? I don't think he would want riches, though Galadriel's
non-foretelling for him was still a month in the future, and the only
clue we get is that the thought that his choice would be known only to
himself (which probably rules out the Moria idea, which was half in jest
anyway). I can't guess what Gimli was offered.

<snip>

>> He rose clumsily and bowed in dwarf-fashion, saying: "Yet more fair
>> is the living land of Lórien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the
>> jewels that lie beneath the earth!"'
>
> At this point we see that Gimli is quite extraordinary among Dwarves.

Very much so.

> I think, in this act, and in his friendship with Legolas, we see the
> healing of ancient wounds that had dated back to the Fall of Doriath.

I have always liked to think - or rather hope - so.
How much this healing goes beyond Gimli is uncertain, though. I think
that it would extend to Dáin's people, but beyond that? I do doubt
whether even Gimli's friendship led to a more general reconciliation
between Dwarves and Elves.

On the other hand it is clear that Tolkien does put their friendship
firmly in the context of the old enmity - most clearly in the argument
before the west-door of Moria about whose fault it was that the
friendship waned.

>> [9] What is so attractive about (in this case Gandalf's much
>> praised) quick-temperedness?

I don't know that I agree that Frodo actually praised Gandalf's quick
temper - he says that he missed it, and I see that more as a statement
that he misses the person Gandalf than as a praise of these specific
traits.

> Gandalf's best wit came during those hot tempered moments.

Going back in my mind over the most cherished Gandalf quotations, I find
that they are usually those where I imagine him speaking with some
impatience; "Pity! It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand ...", "Deserves
death? ..." "Fool of a Took!" etc.

<snip>

> I really think she wanted to see what Frodo would see in the Mirror.

I hadn't thought of it before, but that does sound very plausible to me.

<snip>

>> [14] Galadriel can read Sauron's mind, but he can't read hers, thanks
>> to Nenya, I would say.
>
> I'm sure Nenya is part of it, but Galadriel was clearly a pretty
> powerful Noldo herself, one of the mightiest of the Eldar.

Did Tolkien concieve of her as an equal (or nearly so) of Fëanor already
while writing LotR?

Clearly she is one of the mightiest Elves in Middle-earth at this point,
at the most Elrond and Círdan would be her equals (judging exclusively by
LotR), but I agree with Henriette that when looking at LotR alone the
implication is that Nenya is the main reason for her being able to
perceive Sauron's mind ("or all of his mind that concerns the Elves.")

--
Troels Forchhammer

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to
(a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks.
- (Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites)

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 7:54:39 AM6/2/04
to
in <be50318e.0405...@posting.google.com>,
Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> Chapter Summary

Excellent - thanks (and not so long, which I think is a good thing).

<snip>

> [7] In this chapter it is suggested their stay in Lothlórien only
> lasts a couple of days.

Perhaps a bit more than "a couple of days", though not by much: "They
remained some days in Lothlórien, so far as they could tell or
remember." (Though of course one might argue that the qualification
already suggests that they "could tell or remember" erroneously.)

Sam later (II,9 'The Great River') recalls "three nights there for
certain, and [he seems] to remember several more," but he also "would
take my oath it was never a whole month."

> Later on in FOTR it is suggested it has been about a month.

More than suggested, I'd say. It's stated outright, and the Tale of
Years gives us the exact time. They crossed the Silverlod on January
16th, and left on February 16th - 30 days, or exactly one month.

> Another sign of how peaceful life is there, is that 'Nothing seems
> to be going on, and nobody seems to want it to.' Amazing.

As Aragorn put it, "But so it is, Sam: in that land you lost your
count. There time flowed swiftly by us, as for the Elves." (II,9 as
well)

On a side note - of interest to the discussion in the previous chapter
about Aragorn's exclamation after Gandalf's fall about having to do
without hope, he adds to the above that "Time flows on to a spring of
little hope."

<snip>

> [10]When Frodo expresses his desire to see the Lady of the Elves
> again, his wish is granted immediately, as are Sam's wishes to see
> some Elf-magic and to have a glimpse of what is going on at home.
> Galadriel materialises as soon as they utter their wish, and she
> even says to Sam: "Did you not say you wished to see Elf-magic?"
> It is unlikely she overheard them. So is this a coincidence?

I'm sure that we can rule out co-incidence ;-)

Galadriel appears to know just about everything that passes in the land
of Lórien that she wants to know, and I would be surprised if she had
not kept an eye (or two when she could spare them) on the Ring-bearer.

It is probably, as you say, unlikely that she overheard them directly,
though I don't doubt that she has other ways of eavesdropping than just
staying close. That she did know what had been said is, IMO, clear.

> Did JRRT make up things like clearsightedness, telepathy and magic
> devices like the Palantír and Galadriel's Mirror, to happen in an
> imaginary world, or maybe did he believe there is something more
> between heaven and earth?

Hmmm - I can't find anything clear in the letters - there's a statement
in letter #155 (draft), "I do not intend to involve myself in any
debate whether 'magic' in any sense is real or really possible in the
world." but that doesn't really answer your question.

On a related note he did apparently believe in (divine) miracles in the
real world;
"So plain and matter of fact: for so miracles are. They are
intrusions (as we say, erring) into real or ordinary life,
but they do intrude into real life, and so need ordinary
meals and other results."
(letter #89, 1944)

At a guess, though, I'd say that he did not believe that there was
anything 'more between heaven and earth' that was attainable by
man-kind (other than faith) - that any 'something' would have to be of
a divine nature.

> [11]I can't see why Galadriel lets Frodo and Sam have a look in her
> Mirror,

[...]


> and I can't see what they have learned to their advantage.

"Presently he came back, and bending looked at Frodo's face,
pale beneath him in the dusk. And suddenly he saw that he
was in the picture that was revealed to him in the mirror of
Galadriel in Lórien: Frodo with a pale face lying fast asleep
under a great dark cliff. Or fast asleep he had thought then.
'He's dead!' he said. 'Not asleep, dead!'"
(LotR IV,10 'The Choices of Master Samwise')

A pity he misinterpreted when he stood in the actual situation, though
I think that it helped him decide to take the Ring and continue.

<snip>

> [13] When Frodo looks into Galadriel's Mirror and perceives the Eye,
> "The Ring that hung upon its chain about his neck grew heavy,
> heavier than a great stone".

"... and his head was dragged downwards. The Mirror seemed
to be growing hot and curls of steam were rising from the
water. He was slipping forward.
'Do not touch the water!' said the Lady Galadriel softly."

Why does the water (the Mirror) "seem to be growing hot and curls of
steam" rise from it? Is it really growing hot ("The Eye was rimmed with
fire" - is that why the water grows hot?).

And why does Galadriel warn Frodo not to touch the water? What would
have happened if he did? Would he merely have burned himself (if the
water really was getting very hot), would he have revealed himself to
Sauron?

--
Troels Forchhammer

Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond
them is more than memory, Farewell!
- Aragorn Son of Arathorn, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)

AC

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 12:25:56 PM6/2/04
to
On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 11:53:14 GMT,
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> in <slrncbn62d.2k0....@alder.alberni.net>,
> AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:

>


> And Legolas? A place among the Galadhrim?

Maybe an extended tree climbing expedition!

>>> [14] Galadriel can read Sauron's mind, but he can't read hers, thanks
>>> to Nenya, I would say.
>>
>> I'm sure Nenya is part of it, but Galadriel was clearly a pretty
>> powerful Noldo herself, one of the mightiest of the Eldar.
>
> Did Tolkien concieve of her as an equal (or nearly so) of Fëanor already
> while writing LotR?
>
> Clearly she is one of the mightiest Elves in Middle-earth at this point,
> at the most Elrond and Círdan would be her equals (judging exclusively by
> LotR), but I agree with Henriette that when looking at LotR alone the
> implication is that Nenya is the main reason for her being able to
> perceive Sauron's mind ("or all of his mind that concerns the Elves.")

You're quite right. The increasing of stature of Galadriel was later than
LOtR.

--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com

ste...@nomail.com

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 12:38:18 PM6/2/04
to
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Dave Barlow <yelm...@sartar.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
: During a perfect moment of peace at 31 May 2004 21:39:27 GMT,
: ste...@nomail.com interrupted with:

:>Personally I have never understood what Galadriel was up to.
:>It is not well explained, especially regarding Boromir. Up
:>to that point other than questioning the Council, which hardly
:>seems such a terrible thing, he has done nothing to suggest he
:>wants the Ring.

: My take is that Galadriel had seen all of her closest family, as well
: as their relatives and many others, destroyed by pride and arrogance
: regarding works of the enemy. Galadriel herself had been touched by
: this doom on her bloodline. She simply wanted to know if the
: Fellowship where 'up to it' and if any of them might betray the cause.

: To this end she plays on what each person wants the most to see if
: they have the moral fibre to ignore the lure of the Ring. All but one
: passes the test.

But she does not do anything with this information, so what was the point?
Everyone is allowed to continue whether or not they pass the test. She
apparently later told Gandalf but I do not see what good that did,
unless you use the catch all explanation that everything that happened
happened according to the greater plan.

Stephen

Taemon

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 1:08:34 PM6/2/04
to
Stan Brown wrote:

> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote


> > Which I thought rather cruel. "On the one side is fear
> > and despair. But see, you can choose the other side!
> > Here is what you wish for most. What do you choose?"
> > But you can't have that. It is a lie.
> I respectfully disagree.

That's good :-)

> In the legend of Jesus in the 40 days in the desert,
> Satan takes him up to a high mountain and offers him all
> the kingdoms of earth. Do you think Jesus said no because
> the kingdoms weren't Satan's to give? No, he said no
> because his mission was not to be a ruler.

I'm not so sure about the wisdom of this analogy, since Satan is
Evil and all. He did tempt Jesus exactly to get him off the right
path. I'm sure Galadriel didn't have the same purpose in her
little mindplay but I don't think it less cruel. "You have your
chosen path. Wouldn't you want to lie it down?"

> That's exactly the point: he made a moral choice, and while the
facts were
> such that his choice made no direct difference, his own
> state of mind is revealed in the choice. He chose to "go
> it alone" and not to work with the Valar, and his
> rebellion and the deaths of countless Elves and Men
> followed.

Another happy analogue? ;-) Galadriel knew that Boromir would
budge without having to tempt him like that. And did it change
anything?

T.


the softrat

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 1:26:42 PM6/2/04
to
On 2 Jun 2004 16:25:56 GMT, AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>You're quite right. The increasing of stature of Galadriel was later than
>LOtR.

And I have often thought that the 'increasing of stature of Galadriel'
was one of Tolkien's worse mistakes. Think of how much more we would
think of the elves if she, with all her power, were presented as
merely a minor elven noblewoman. And considering Celeborn, that would
also make more sense, although HoME reveals that Celeborn was steadily
'dumbed down' as the tale grew.

Why does everyone presented always have to be 'the greatest'?


the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Baba ganoosh ganache Ganesh!
Baba ganoosh ganache!
--culinary cheer for the elephant god

Henriette

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Jun 2, 2004, 1:29:36 PM6/2/04
to
Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@gmx.de> wrote in message news:<k2n0p1-...@ID-7776.user.uni-berlin.de>...

> Thanks, Henriette. Good job.

Thank you Dirk! Your very German last name and your extremely Dutch
first name always confuse me a little:-)


>
> > Frodo is in doubt whether the first person he sees in the Mirror

> > is Saruman, or Gandalf clothed in white. (snip)


>
> I think I can place Sam's scenes, but I am not sure about some of Frodo's,
> starting with the above one. The figure has a *white* staff and is clad
> in white, and is walking alone on a long road. Is the color of the
> staffs of Sauron or Gandalf ever mentioned? Anyway, it cannot be
> Gandalf the Grey before his return. It is unlikely to be Gandalf the
> White after his return, because he probably wouldn't walk alone on a long
> road.

My stubborn guess:-) still is, that it is supposed to indicate that
Gandalf is coming back.

> > b) An *oval* shaped room in the house of Galadriel and Celeborn: isn't
> > that nice!
>
> I would expect the wood-elves to use round, "organic" shapes.
>

But oval also is an organic shape (e.g. flower petals, leaves, the
eye).

> > b) [OT}As an aside, since I recently attended a reading on

> > intercultural differences in non-verbal communication,(snip)

> Interesting. Thanks.
>
Today another interesting intercultural difference in non-verbal
communication happened, when a Turkish man told me about his
baby-daughter. He slightly pulled down his lower eyelid and said: "She
is the apple of my eye". He does not know, that in NL this gesture
means something like: "Ÿeah right. So and so is cheating"....

> I think Sam has learned that he has to make a choice, and he chooses
> to stay with Frodo.

Yes, very likely actually. But he already made that choice. I'm not
sure why the extra suffering is added, but then I am always resentful
when people say it is so useful nasty things happen because one learns
so much from them...


>
> > In both devices, the strength of Will from the person looking in it,
> > decided how much was revealed.
>
> Will seems to be very important in "magic", be it Rings, Mirrors, or
> Crystal Orbs.
>

In and outside of magic....

> > [17] Now that I'm at it, I would like to share some names
> > from the Italian LOTR: Il Signore degli Anelli.
> > You can look at it as riddles, if you like, some easy, some difficult:
>
> I don't know any Italien, but guessing is fun :-) But knowing Latin
> and French probably helps. So here's my try:
>

(snip all perfect answers. Very well Dirk!)


> > gli Elfi, gli Hobbit (both plural)
> Too easy :-)
>

I only included that one to show the funny plural: one Hobbit, two
Hobbit, ten million Hobbit:-)

> > Gran Burrone
> Hm. No idea about Burrone.
>

Burrone means Ravine; Gran Burrone means Rivendell. The translator
wrote a preface, almost a chapter long, explaining the why of some of
her translation. Quite interesting actually.

> > il Flagello di Durin
> Hm. Durin's Bane, maybe? In German, "Flagellanten" are monks who
> hurt themselves ritually.
>

Same here. Flagello means scourge and yes, it is Durin's Bane, bravo!


> > Terre Selvagge
> Hm. Wilderland? If "selvagge" = french "sauvage".
>

Very well!

> > il Nemico.
> No idea.
>
The Enemy. Once you know that, you see the resemblance....

> > * "A me parve tutto estremamente bizzarro", disse Boromir.
> "To me it seemed exceedingly strange"", said Boromir.
>

Don't you think it is funny: estremamente bizzarro? (bizarre)
(snip)

> (Of course, I cheated with last two quotes by comparing them to the
> text in the chapter. After I found them, I can now match the words in the
> last. Before, I couldn't :-)
>

LOL. Thank you for playing!

Henriette

Henriette

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 1:32:51 PM6/2/04
to
"Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote in message news:<2i1ekuF...@uni-berlin.de>...
> Henriette wrote:
>
> > Rejoice!
>
> <rejoices>
>
Because you read "Gollum" is coming to Lisse very soon (visiting the
Elf Fantasy Fair)?

Henriette

Henriette

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 1:37:34 PM6/2/04
to
AC wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 18:48:32 GMT,
> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > AC wrote:

(Thank you for your apologies for not snipping, and you are quite
forgiven. I am
happy to hear you were so mesmerised by my introduction that you
forgot to snip:-)

> >> Quite frankly, I think her main interest was in Frodo, but Frodo and Sam
> >> were a package deal. I really think she wanted to see what Frodo would see
> >> in the Mirror.
> >
> > But why? She could already read Sauron's mind.
>
> Frankly, I think that's a bit of hyperbole on her part (Galadriel was
> nothing if not proud, and maybe even a little arrogant still). She was, I'm
> sure, wise enough to know Sauron's general plans and desires. But I really
> doubt, for instance, that she knew the precise moment, for instance, when
> Sauron planned on striking out at Minas Tirith.
>
> If she could have had that degree of insight, then why wouldn't she have
> known really critical things like when Sauron questioned Gollum, or when he
> was sending the Nazgul into Eriador, or that he was in communication with
> Saruman?

I wasn't precise enough in saying Galadriel could read Sauron's mind.
She said she perceived the Dark Lord and knew his mind, or
(rather)*all of his mind that concerned the Elves* (and that, I think,
very directly).

Henriette

AC

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 1:55:46 PM6/2/04
to
On 2 Jun 2004 10:37:34 -0700,
Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I wasn't precise enough in saying Galadriel could read Sauron's mind.
> She said she perceived the Dark Lord and knew his mind, or
> (rather)*all of his mind that concerned the Elves* (and that, I think,
> very directly).

Then I think my guess that she was interested in seeing what Frodo would
conjure up in the mirror still has some merit. She may also have been
behaving in an altruistic fashion, hoping that he would see something to his
benefit.

A thought just occured to me about that as well. I wonder if the Mirror was
where she got the notion that the rumors of Gandalf's passing were somewhat
exaggerated? (I'm referring to the cloaked man Frodo glimpsed).

--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com

Henriette

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 1:57:06 PM6/2/04
to
"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message news:<Kcjvc.17990$g4.3...@news2.nokia.com>...


> I don't know that I agree that Frodo actually praised Gandalf's quick
> temper - he says that he missed it, and I see that more as a statement
> that he misses the person Gandalf than as a praise of these specific
> traits.
>
I think he specifically means the quick temper. He misses it and he
mentions it in his poem, and of the top of my head I say that he is
not the only one speaking about Gandalf's temper with tenderness. It
mildly surprises me and I have even secretly (within myself) made the
assumption that maybe JRRT was surrounded in RL by 'stiff upperlips'
and therefore liked the somewhat overt exotic quick temperedness of
other peoples.


> Clearly she is one of the mightiest Elves in Middle-earth at this point,
> at the most Elrond and Círdan would be her equals (judging exclusively by
> LotR), but I agree with Henriette that when looking at LotR alone the
> implication is that Nenya is the main reason for her being able to
> perceive Sauron's mind ("or all of his mind that concerns the Elves.")

LOL, well, after AC's remark I have changed my mind into thinking that
she mainly could do this, because she was such a strong and mighty
Lady:-)but the Ring was certainly involved.

Henriette

Raven

unread,
Jun 1, 2004, 6:49:19 PM6/1/04
to
"Andy Cooke" <Andy_Cooke@SPAMTRAP_REMOVE_THISdsl.pipex.com> skrev i en
meddelelse news:40bcf670$0$20512$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...

> I hereby name them "Turgon the Skyscraper" and "Thingol the Orbital
> Beanstalk"

The latter seems to have had his head in outer space on occasion. :-)

Ravnur.


Henriette

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 2:08:36 PM6/2/04
to
Prai Jei wrote:

> Henriette (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
> <be50318e.0405...@posting.google.com>:
>
> > [4] ... IMO it is suggested that Galadriel offers Boromir the Ring.

> I've always envisaged Galadriel offering Boromir that he be crowned King of
> Gondor.

Those are projections:-)

> > He calls Celeborn Dullborn, (to which I can
> > agree. I cannot imagine why Galadriel calls him the wisest of all
> > Elves, especially because she keeps correcting him, or what she
> > sees in him)

> Galadriel speak with forked tongue? Or with tongue in cheek?

I think Prof. Tolkien had a clear picture of how many women deal with their
husbands:-)

Henriette

Henriette

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 2:12:18 PM6/2/04
to
Michael Cole wrote:

> Actually, the point that most seemed incongrous to me was that the
> relationship between Aragorn and C&G seemed to be so understated. Now, I
> wasn't expecting a, "Hello Gran and Gramps", but he was effectively "dating"
> their granddaughter - I would have expected some more friendly a greeting.
> I know that they are reserved, but still, he is effectlively part of the
> family...

Very reserved it seems indeed, but who knows how many heartfelt greetings and
winks the Lady and Aragorn exchanged while silently gazing at each other!

Henriette

> Michael Cole
> (Partly toungue in cheek, if anyone can't tell...)

Michael, what do you mean?

Henriette

Henriette

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 2:18:22 PM6/2/04
to
Glenn Holliday <holl...@acm.org> wrote in message news:<40BB7788...@acm.org>...

> Henriette wrote:
> >
> > [15] Eärendil is bright like the full moon! for the Elven-lady casts a
> > dim shadow on the ground because of its bright light.
>
> It doesn't have to be as bright as the full moon.

That must be true, because the moon can cast a *very bright* shadow.

> (snip) I would guess he included this detail because he
> had seen a Venus shadow himself.

A Venus Shadow. Sounds like a mysterious living being...

Henriette

Taemon

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Jun 2, 2004, 3:11:05 PM6/2/04
to
Henriette wrote:

> Because you read "Gollum" is coming to Lisse very soon
> (visiting the Elf Fantasy Fair)?

No, what, tell me more? And WB, or something?

T.


Raven

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Jun 2, 2004, 5:26:24 PM6/2/04
to
"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:be50318e.0406...@posting.google.com...

> A Venus Shadow. Sounds like a mysterious living being...

<blinks innocently>
The shadow cast by or associated with the Venus Mountain?

Raafje.


Christopher Kreuzer

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Jun 2, 2004, 8:25:11 PM6/2/04
to
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> in <be50318e.0405...@posting.google.com>,
> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:

>> Chapter Summary

<snip>

> On a side note - of interest to the discussion in the previous chapter
> about Aragorn's exclamation after Gandalf's fall about having to do
> without hope, he adds to the above that "Time flows on to a spring of
> little hope."

Good point. I do like these little references to the seasons. You are
reminded that time is still flowing on, despite what is happening in the
story.

<snip>

>> [11]I can't see why Galadriel lets Frodo and Sam have a look in her
>> Mirror,
> [...]
>> and I can't see what they have learned to their advantage.
>
> "Presently he came back, and bending looked at Frodo's face,
> pale beneath him in the dusk. And suddenly he saw that he
> was in the picture that was revealed to him in the mirror of
> Galadriel in Lórien: Frodo with a pale face lying fast asleep
> under a great dark cliff. Or fast asleep he had thought then.
> 'He's dead!' he said. 'Not asleep, dead!'"
> (LotR IV,10 'The Choices of Master Samwise')
>
> A pity he misinterpreted when he stood in the actual situation, though
> I think that it helped him decide to take the Ring and continue.

A pity? It was a jolly good thing he did misinterpret Frodo as being
dead! There are several plotlines that result from this part of the
story that could be argued as being crucial to the successful conclusion
of the story. I think they get food in the orc tower, the orcs all kill
themselves, Sauron is undoubtedly misled by the reports he gets and the
tokens that end up at the Black Gate, and (very importantly) Sam takes
the Ring off Frodo before the orcs appear, and they get orc mail from
the orc tower (a necessary disguise), and that orc mail saves Gollum's
life, etc, etc.

> <snip>
>
>> [13] When Frodo looks into Galadriel's Mirror and perceives the Eye,
>> "The Ring that hung upon its chain about his neck grew heavy,
>> heavier than a great stone".
> "... and his head was dragged downwards. The Mirror seemed
> to be growing hot and curls of steam were rising from the
> water. He was slipping forward.
> 'Do not touch the water!' said the Lady Galadriel softly."
>
> Why does the water (the Mirror) "seem to be growing hot and curls of
> steam" rise from it? Is it really growing hot

Steam? Hot? Probably.

> ("The Eye was rimmed
> with fire" - is that why the water grows hot?).
>
> And why does Galadriel warn Frodo not to touch the water? What would
> have happened if he did? Would he merely have burned himself (if the
> water really was getting very hot), would he have revealed himself to
> Sauron?

Hmm. Probably. Visions of Frodo sucked into the wormhole, er, Mirror,
and into the Eye of Sauron. The nasty eye. Not the beachball eye.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 8:55:59 PM6/2/04
to
Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
>> Book 2, Chapter 7: The Mirror of Galadriel

>> Frodo is in doubt whether the first person he sees in the Mirror


>> is Saruman, or Gandalf clothed in white. He sees many more scenes
>> that he (and the experienced Tolkien reader)in some way knows to be
>> parts of the great history in which Frodo has become involved.
>
> I think I can place Sam's scenes, but I am not sure about some of
> Frodo's, starting with the above one. The figure has a *white* staff
> and is clad in white, and is walking alone on a long road. Is the
> color of the staffs of Sauron or Gandalf ever mentioned?
> Anyway, it cannot be Gandalf the Grey before his return. It is
> unlikely to be Gandalf the White after his return, because he
> probably wouldn't walk alone on a long road. My best guess so

> far is Saruman after leaving Isengard, on his way to the Shire.
> But what about Wormtongue?

Didn't Gandalf break Saruman's staff? But then didn't Saruman still have
a staff when he walked to the Shire with Wormtongue? I'd still say this
is Gandalf, maybe as he "wandered far on roads that I will not tell".
('The White Rider')

There is also a scene involving Bilbo. We are not told when or where
this is. Do we assume that it is the present: Bilbo waiting for them in
Rivendell?

> What is the black ship in the Storm? Elendil escaping the Drowning of
> Numenor? The "wide river through the populous city" might describe
> Osigiliath. But what is the fortress with seven towers? Tirion?

The first ship is Elendil's ship (or one of the Exiles' ships) - but it
is a black outline (or rather a silhouette) and not actually a black
ship. It is most probably the ship that ended up in Gondor. IIRC, the
ships of the Exiles were separated in the storms and landed in both the
north and the south. The city over the wide river is Osgiliath, yes. I'm
not sure about the fortress with seven towers, but it is white so it is
probably Minas Tirith. Not certain though, because Minas Tirith is
mostly described as having seven walls/levels/gates, and the Tower of
Ecthelion. I'd say not Tirion (even though it might have seven towers),
because the events we see here are a chronological order of the history
from the Downfall of Numenor = "Darkness fell" to the Last Ship sailing
into the West ('a small ship passed away, twinkling with lights').

The real black is in the sails of that second ship, which is Aragorn's
ship sailing to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and his standard
breaking in the wind and shining with jewels and mithril. The sun is
later described as setting in a burning red, just as the poets of Rohan
will later describe the mountains burning as beacons in the evening, and
the dew falling red in Rammas Echor, after the Battle of the Pelennor
Fields.

This flurry of 'history' scenes that Frodo sees in the Mirror reminds me
very strongly of the episodic nature of the account in Tom Bombadil's
house of those 'kings of little kingdoms on the heights'. If that was
Arnor, consider that we are now seeing the history of Gondor in some of
these images. And there is the same dreamlike quality in both accounts.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

"Do you wonder at that, Ring-bearer? For you know the power of that
thing which is now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is
now passing away. But your kinsman possessed this thing longer than
you. He is ancient in years now, according to his kind; and he awaits
you, for he will not again make any long journey save one." - Arwen
speaking to Frodo about Bilbo (Many Partings, RotK)

Michael Cole

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Jun 2, 2004, 8:59:41 PM6/2/04
to
"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message
news:3ejvc.17992$g4.3...@news2.nokia.com

> in <be50318e.0405...@posting.google.com>,
> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
>>
>
>>[13] When Frodo looks into Galadriel's Mirror and perceives the Eye,
>> "The Ring that hung upon its chain about his neck grew heavy,
>> heavier than a great stone".
> "... and his head was dragged downwards. The Mirror seemed
> to be growing hot and curls of steam were rising from the
> water. He was slipping forward.
> 'Do not touch the water!' said the Lady Galadriel softly."
>
>
> And why does Galadriel warn Frodo not to touch the water? What would
> have happened if he did? Would he merely have burned himself (if the
> water really was getting very hot), would he have revealed himself to
> Sauron?

No, but he would have spoilt the mirror effect of it, and they would have
had to start again. Vissions are difficult to see through ripples...


--
Regards,

Michael Cole
OE-QF Error: No signatures could be read from signatures.ini!


the softrat

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Jun 2, 2004, 11:38:29 PM6/2/04
to
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:55:59 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Didn't Gandalf break Saruman's staff? But then didn't Saruman still have
>a staff when he walked to the Shire with Wormtongue?
>
Do you have any idea how easy it is to pick up a staff when walking
miles through wooded territory?

PS Your chronology is wrong too.

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--

Frogs are my favorite vegetable.

Dirk Thierbach

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Jun 3, 2004, 9:07:14 AM6/3/04
to
Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@gmx.de> wrote:

> Thank you Dirk! Your very German last name and your extremely Dutch
> first name always confuse me a little:-)

And I'm not even from northern Germany... BTW, Dirk is a perfectly
normal German first name. In elementary school (near Frankfurt), there
were two other Dirks in my class, so it was a standing joke for the
whole class to say "which one?" whenever the teacher called "Dirk!".

The only disadvantage it that it frequently gets confused with "Dick"
by english speakers. I switch to "Derek" in this case :-)

>> > Frodo is in doubt whether the first person he sees in the Mirror
>> > is Saruman, or Gandalf clothed in white. (snip)

> My stubborn guess:-) still is, that it is supposed to indicate that
> Gandalf is coming back.

But why would he walk alone a long road? I just cannot think of any
scene that fits.

>> > b) An *oval* shaped room in the house of Galadriel and Celeborn: isn't
>> > that nice!
>>
>> I would expect the wood-elves to use round, "organic" shapes.

> But oval also is an organic shape (e.g. flower petals, leaves, the
> eye).

Of course. I meant to agree with you, not to disagree. Sorry, I
probably expressed that badly.

> Today another interesting intercultural difference in non-verbal
> communication happened, when a Turkish man told me about his
> baby-daughter. He slightly pulled down his lower eyelid and said: "She
> is the apple of my eye". He does not know, that in NL this gesture

> means something like: "?eah right. So and so is cheating"....

Interesting. I know this gesture, but I've never attached any
particular meaning to it.

>> I think Sam has learned that he has to make a choice, and he chooses
>> to stay with Frodo.

> Yes, very likely actually. But he already made that choice. I'm not
> sure why the extra suffering is added,

To make him aware of it? And at the tower of Cirith Ungol, he has to
make another choice (we have discussed this here, IIRC). Maybe his
choice there would have been different, if he had not looked into the
mirror?

> The translator wrote a preface, almost a chapter long, explaining
> the why of some of her translation. Quite interesting actually.

I'd like to read that ...

>> > il Nemico.


> The Enemy. Once you know that, you see the resemblance....

That's a fun one. amicus "friend" -> inimicus "unfriend", and then
drop the initial vowel (-> nemico) or the end (-> enemy). Hard to
recognize if you don't know it...

- Dirk

Jim Deutch

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Jun 3, 2004, 10:18:38 AM6/3/04
to
On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 20:51:39 -0500, "aelfwina" <aelf...@cableone.net>
wrote:
>I've always thought of the "golden" being the dominant color in Lothlorien,
>but now I see that it *is* white. I doubt if it will change my mental
>picture, though, after 36 years. Nice bit of observation.

Me, too. It really grated on me to see all the blue-white in
movie-Lothlorien. I guess we were influenced by the nickname "The
Golden Wood". It wasn't springtime, but the yellow mallorn leaves
should have still been on the trees: perhaps that was just too
difficult to "special-effect" (more likely he'd blown his budget on
the battles).

[G's mirror]
>It is interesting that the Elves do *not* think of this as magic, though
>they are aware that other races do think of it that way. It makes one
>wonder just what the Elves think it *is* if not magic?

It's often been likened to technology here on the newsgroups, but I
think that misses the mark. I like to think of it as something that
is simply beyond the understanding of us mere latter-day mortals (and
of the Hobbits, mostly, too).

Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
"While some fools seem to think that strength is the ability to
destroy and to defeat, strength is more importantly the ability to
give and to aid." - Raven

Jim Deutch

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Jun 3, 2004, 10:18:40 AM6/3/04
to
On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 21:04:05 -0700, "Shanahan"
<pogued...@redTHISsuspenders.com> wrote:

>AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> firmly declared:
>> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
><snip>


>>> But why? She could already read Sauron's mind.
>>
>> Frankly, I think that's a bit of hyperbole on her part
>> (Galadriel was nothing if not proud, and maybe even a little
>> arrogant still). She was, I'm sure, wise enough to know
>> Sauron's general plans and desires. But I really doubt, for
>> instance, that she knew the precise moment, for instance, when
>> Sauron planned on striking out at Minas Tirith.
>> If she could have had that degree of insight, then why wouldn't
>> she have known really critical things like when Sauron
>> questioned Gollum, or when he was sending the Nazgul into
>> Eriador, or that he was in communication with Saruman?
>

>Galadriel explains that she can read Sauron's mind, but only that
>part of his mind that concerns the Elves. In the Mirror scene.

Don't all of those events concern the Elves? I'll grant that at the
time Sauron questioned Gollum, Galadriel could have had no idea that
this did, in fact, concern the Elves, but Saruman was leader of the
White Council on which Galadriel also sat: his treason would have
greatly concerned her. Why did she not know? A warning to Gandalf
would have saved a whole lot of trouble...

Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--

Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?

Henriette

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Jun 3, 2004, 3:07:13 PM6/3/04
to
Taemon wrote:
> Henriette wrote:
>
> > Because you read "Gollum" is coming to Lisse very soon
> > (visiting the Elf Fantasy Fair)?
>
> No, what, tell me more?
>
www.elffantasy.nl Gollum is holding a lecture.... 'Haldir' is also
coming.

> And WB, or something?

LOL. WT is fine.

Google was *four* days late with all posts to all NG's. I thought it
was my PC's fault, until I found out it was the same at work. I never
thought my chapter discussion would get through to AFT, but luckily it
did....

H.

Henriette

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Jun 3, 2004, 3:14:07 PM6/3/04
to
AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<slrncbs552.1oo....@alder.alberni.net>...

> Then I think my guess that she was interested in seeing what Frodo would
> conjure up in the mirror still has some merit. She may also have been
> behaving in an altruistic fashion, hoping that he would see something to his
> benefit.
>

It may both be true, and in the process fulfilling Sam's wish to see
some Elf-magic and Frodo's wish to see her.

> A thought just occured to me about that as well. I wonder if the Mirror was
> where she got the notion that the rumors of Gandalf's passing were somewhat
> exaggerated? (I'm referring to the cloaked man Frodo glimpsed).

Very well possible. But being both Ring-bearers, I would think she
also had other ways of knowing. Then why didn't she have a clue when
the Company arrived?

Henriette

Henriette

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Jun 3, 2004, 3:18:53 PM6/3/04
to
the softrat <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message news:<o63sb09btfgg8g3m6...@4ax.com>...

> Why does everyone presented always have to be 'the greatest'?
>

Yes, why always either 'the greatest' or 'the eldest'?

Henrietta

Henriette

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Jun 3, 2004, 3:26:30 PM6/3/04
to
da...@ofir.dk (Kristian Damm Jensen) wrote in message news:<2c9e2992.04060...@posting.google.com>...
> held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote in message news:<be50318e.0405...@posting.google.com>...

> > [2] How tall do we think the Lord and Lady are? I think about 1.90 m.
>
> Galadriel is 6 feet 4 inches, according to UT, Numenorean Linear
> Measures. If I know my conversion that means roughly 2.10 m.

Andy Cooke says: "So Galadriel was 6 feet 4, or 1.93m. So your guess
was pretty damn close." Ofcourse I like his answer best!

> > [3]a)None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure Galadriel's
> > glance.
> > Do they have the stronger personalities and/or the clearest
> > conscience?
>
> A clear conscience and, I think, a clear purpose. They knew what they
> were doning, and why, and they felt no urge to do otherwise. Contrary
> to the hobbits (except Frodo) who don't know what they are doing, has
> a dim understanding of why and would much rather be sitting in a cozy
> armchair in front of a fire, brandishing a pibe and a mug.

LOL. They may not know what they are doing, except being very loyal...
>
> <snip>
>
> > [6] My favorite quote from this chapter appears in this part:
(snip my favorite quote)
>
> Yup. Leads up to my favourite of the next chapter...
>
(Slow increasingly loud beating of drums.......)

Henriette

Henriette

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Jun 3, 2004, 3:31:34 PM6/3/04
to
Andy Cooke <Andy_Cooke@SPAMTRAP_REMOVE_THISdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message news:<40bcf670$0$20512$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com>...
> Henriette wrote:
> [snip]

>
> > [2] How tall do we think the Lord and Lady are? I think about 1.90 m.
> > (snip facts)

> So Galadriel was 6 feet 4, or 1.93m. So your guess was pretty damn close.

Henriette dances around excitedly to be so pretty damn close!
>
> Incidentally, Elendil was "more than man-high by nearly half a ranga",
> or nearly 7 feet 11 inches (2.41m).
> Elendil the Tall? Elendil the ruddy Tower that Walks, more like!

This fact suddenly gives the possible meaning of "The Two Towers" a
whole lot more possibilities!

(snip rest of interesting information).

Henriette

Henriette

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Jun 3, 2004, 3:52:14 PM6/3/04
to
"aelfwina" <aelf...@cableone.net> wrote in message news:<10bqclf...@corp.supernews.com>...

> I've always thought of the "golden" being the dominant color in Lothlorien,

Maybe the "Lady of the Golden Wood" has to do with that.

> but now I see that it *is* white. I doubt if it will change my mental
> picture, though, after 36 years. Nice bit of observation.

Thank you! In these chaper discussions it is interesting to notice how
different people will observe different details (if this is a detail)
according to their interests.
>
> The "Oval Room"? LOL; as an American that has connotations for me.
> >
Does it? I will most likely not find anything about that in my
dictionary?

> I imagine Merry's additional temptation might have included something to do
> with Buckland and its prosperity, or perhaps Estella Bolger. I would imagine
> Frodo would be tempted by a chance to turn back the clock to before he knew
> anything about the Ring. You notice that there is no hint about Pippin's
> temptation. Interesting.
>
Yes. I'm trying to encourage posters to make wild speculations:-)

> > [6] My favorite quote from this chapter appears in this part:

(snip favorite quote)

> I love this scene as well. It is not merely the beauty of Galadriel that
> takes Gimli's heart, but her kindness to him in his distress.
> >
Yes, especially in this scene it is her kindness and the protection
she offers him from her harsh 'wisest of all Elves' husband.

> It is interesting that the Elves do *not* think of this as magic, though
> they are aware that other races do think of it that way. It makes one
> wonder just what the Elves think it *is* if not magic?
>

Yes, and what do they think *is* magic?

Henriette

Christopher Kreuzer

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Jun 3, 2004, 3:54:03 PM6/3/04
to
Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>>> Frodo is in doubt whether the first person he sees in the Mirror
>>>> is Saruman, or Gandalf clothed in white. (snip)

>> My stubborn guess:-) still is, that it is supposed to indicate that
>> Gandalf is coming back.

> But why would he walk alone a long road? I just cannot think of any
> scene that fits.

I still think it is the scene that Gandalf 'describes' to Aragorn,
Legolas and Gimli in the chapter 'The White Rider':

"I wondered far on roads that I will not tell."

The scene is probably not meant to be real, but more a dream sequence. A
representation in a way that Frodo can understand, of Gandalf's journeys
outside time and space. It would fit the timing as well, if we assume
this is a 'slightly in the past' scene, rather than present or future
(TOY - Appendix B):

14 February 3019 - The Mirror of Galadriel. Gandalf returns to life, and
lies in a trance.

But this is all rather tenuous, and just my speculation. It is the way I
initially saw the scene (on a re-reading), and is what I've continued to
think of it as implying.

Christopher Kreuzer

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Jun 3, 2004, 3:54:49 PM6/3/04
to
the softrat <sof...@pobox.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:55:59 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Didn't Gandalf break Saruman's staff? But then didn't Saruman still
>> have a staff when he walked to the Shire with Wormtongue?
>>
> Do you have any idea how easy it is to pick up a staff when walking
> miles through wooded territory?

Probably.

> PS Your chronology is wrong too.

How so?

the softrat

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Jun 3, 2004, 4:21:47 PM6/3/04
to
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:54:49 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>the softrat <sof...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:55:59 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
>> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Didn't Gandalf break Saruman's staff? But then didn't Saruman still
>>> have a staff when he walked to the Shire with Wormtongue?
>>>
>> Do you have any idea how easy it is to pick up a staff when walking
>> miles through wooded territory?
>
>Probably.
>
>> PS Your chronology is wrong too.
>
>How so?

Saruman's staff was broken by Gandalf 'after' he was observed walking
in the woods of Fangorn. Your treatise implied the opposite order of
events.

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--

Some of my colleagues think that the chemicals we are
experimenting with could potentially cause brain damage, however
I think that fish crunchy bits of salami my new red hippie
noodle. Naked pool frogs?

Jeffrey Johnson

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Jun 3, 2004, 4:24:36 PM6/3/04
to
30 spammers agree that Henriette wrote:

>"aelfwina" <aelf...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> The "Oval Room"? LOL; as an American that has connotations for me.
>>
>Does it? I will most likely not find anything about that in my
>dictionary?

The "Oval Office" is the room in which the President of the United States
conducts his official business. I assume that is what the reference is
to.

Jeffrey Johnson

--
Replace the rent-a-car with 'avis' to reply

aelfwina

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Jun 3, 2004, 4:31:15 PM6/3/04
to

"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:be50318e.0406...@posting.google.com...

> "aelfwina" <aelf...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:<10bqclf...@corp.supernews.com>...
>
> > I've always thought of the "golden" being the dominant color in
Lothlorien,
>
> Maybe the "Lady of the Golden Wood" has to do with that.
>
> > but now I see that it *is* white. I doubt if it will change my mental
> > picture, though, after 36 years. Nice bit of observation.
>
> Thank you! In these chaper discussions it is interesting to notice how
> different people will observe different details (if this is a detail)
> according to their interests.
> >
> > The "Oval Room"? LOL; as an American that has connotations for me.
> > >
> Does it? I will most likely not find anything about that in my
> dictionary?

The office of the president in the White House is the "Oval Office".


>
> > I imagine Merry's additional temptation might have included something to
do
> > with Buckland and its prosperity, or perhaps Estella Bolger. I would
imagine
> > Frodo would be tempted by a chance to turn back the clock to before he
knew
> > anything about the Ring. You notice that there is no hint about
Pippin's
> > temptation. Interesting.
> >
> Yes. I'm trying to encourage posters to make wild speculations:-)

Wild speculation? For Pippin? The chance to return to the Shire covered in
glory and a head taller than anyone else. That's why his temptation is
never revealed--see, he was a walking disaster, and he was being tempted to
actually continue on the quest instead of to quit as he was secretly
planning to. That's why he got what he wanted. ( How is that for wild?)
8-)

tr2...@hotmail.com

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Jun 3, 2004, 5:02:43 PM6/3/04