Tolkien and Led Zeppelin?
Dan Lewerenz
Johannes Oestreicher wrote:
>
> Hello,
> I know that topic has been discussed before, but I want to know what
> you think about the references to Tolkien in "Stairway To Heaven".
I think you're stretching.
> ---Stairway to Heaven---
> There's a lady who's sure //Galadriel
> All that glitters is gold
> And she's buying a stairway to heaven.
> When she gets there she knows
> If the stores are all closed
> With a word she can get what she came for.
I always read these lines as about someone vain enough to think she
understands the world completely, and that it revolves around her.
Galadrial hardly fits the picture.
> There's a feeling I get
> When I look to the west, //reference to Mordor
Unless you live in Rhun, Mordor is in the east.
> If there's a bustle in your hedgerow
> Don't be alarmed now,
> It's just a spring clean for the May queen. //May queen==Galadriel ?
What makes Galadriel the May Queen?
Dan
--
"I got remote control and a color TV
I don't change channels, so they must change me."
-Billy Joel
"Close to the Borderline," Glass Houses, 1979
Jerry Jackson
If you want to here Tolkien's work in Led Zeppelin, listen to 'The Battle
of Evermore'.
Sha-Kel
In article <33c65ea2...@192.168.100.3>
Hob...@cyberjunkie.com (Johannes Oestreicher) writes:
>Hello,
>I know that topic has been discussed before, but I want to know what
>you think about the references to Tolkien in "Stairway To Heaven".
>another interpretation?
>Are there references to Tolkien in other Led Zeppelin songs, too?
>What's your interpretation of the song?
>Please let me know.
>Thanks,
>John
I don't agree with The Lady being Galadriel. There are too many questions
still left for that to work for me.
In the Led Zeppelin FAQ it claims that there are no references to Tolkien
in Stairway to Heaven, which i tend to agree with. As for other songs, there
is the Misty Mountain Hop (which i don't see much tolkien influence in
except for the name) and the Battle of Evermore.
Sha-Kel
Al Sullivan
Forget Zeppelin. Stairway was always a song full of half-baked images.
After stealing many of their songs from black song writers in the American
South for their first two albums, Zeppelin hopped on another popular
cultural trend. They seemed to have gotten the details wrong, mixing love
song with the myth
al sullivan http://www.users.interport.net/~jfreund/spr
Mark A. Stone
Previous post follows.
Finding JRRT in Stairway to Heaven is a real stretch. The only song I can
think of where Zep mentions anything about Middle Earth is a tune called
"Ramble On" where Gollum steals the singer's girlfriend off of the steps
of Mordor. But my impression is that they were using Lord of the Rings at
the time in some lyrics because it was very popular at the time
(approximately 1970), and it was smart marketing.
Johannes Oestreicher (Hob...@cyberjunkie.com) wrote:
> Hello,
> I know that topic has been discussed before, but I want to know what
> you think about the references to Tolkien in "Stairway To Heaven".
> I added some comments to the song text, are they right or is there
> another interpretation?
> Are there references to Tolkien in other Led Zeppelin songs, too?
> What's your interpretation of the song?
> Please let me know.
> Thanks,
> John
> ---Stairway to Heaven---
> There's a lady who's sure //Galadriel
> All that glitters is gold
> And she's buying a stairway to heaven.
> When she gets there she knows
> If the stores are all closed
> With a word she can get what she came for.
> Ooh, ooh, and she's buying a stairway to heaven. //meaning of
> ‘stairway to heaven’ ?
> There's a sign on the wall //what sign ?
> But she wants to be sure
> 'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings. //two meanings ?
> In a tree by the brook
> There's a songbird who sings,
> Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven.
> Ooh, it makes me wonder,
> Ooh, it makes me wonder.
> There's a feeling I get
> When I look to the west, //reference to Mordor
> And my spirit is crying for leaving.
> In my thoughts I have seen
> Rings of smoke through the trees,
> And the voices of those who standing looking.
> Ooh, it makes me wonder,
> Ooh, it really makes me wonder.
> And it's whispered that soon
> If we all call the tune
> Then the piper will lead us to reason. //the piper ?
> And a new day will dawn
> For those who stand long
> And the forests will echo with laughter.
> If there's a bustle in your hedgerow
> Don't be alarmed now,
> It's just a spring clean for the May queen. //May queen==Galadriel ?
> Yes, there are two paths you can go by
> But in the long run
> There's still time to change the road you're on.
> And it makes me wonder.
> Your head is humming and it won't go
> In case you don't know,
> The piper's calling you to join him,
> Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow,
> And did you know
> Your stairway lies on the whispering wind.
> And as we wind on down the road
> Our shadows taller than our soul.
> There walks a lady we all know
> Who shines white light and wants to show
> How ev'rything still turns to gold.
> And if you listen very hard
> The tune will come to you at last.
> When all are one and one is all
> To be a rock and not to roll.
> And she's buying a stairway to heaven.
> --
> Johannes Oestreicher
> <hob...@cyberjunkie.com>
--
--------------------------------
bh...@rgfn.epcc.edu
The ".edu" meens i are smart.
oz...@mc.net
Mordor was in the east, not the west. This could be a possible
reference to Valinor, however. Elves escaping,etc
> > In my thoughts I have seen
> > Rings of smoke through the trees,
> > And the voices of those who standing looking.
This could refer to various instances in the Hobbit....When Gandalf,
Bilbo and the Dwarves were in the trees and the Wargs and the goblins
besieged them as the trees burned. the rings of smoke could refer to
Gandalf and his skill in blowing smoke rings.
The Stairway to Heaven itself could refer to the straight road across
the ocean(this is a stretch, I know.)
The album artwork on Houses of the Holy looks very similar to what could
be the awakening of the elves and the arrival of Orome in the
Silmarillion.
The name of Plant's dog was strider. In concert he would shout the
dog's name after a performance of Bron-Y-Aur Stomp.(listen to a show
from 1975 I believe, if not, '77)
No Quarter lyrics sound rather Tolkien-esque. The battle of evermore
contains the obvious references.
Mike
an...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
Snipped lyrics to...
> >
> > > And she's buying a stairway to heaven.
> >
> > > --
> > > Johannes Oestreicher
> > > <hob...@cyberjunkie.com>
> >
> > --
> > --------------------------------
> > bh...@rgfn.epcc.edu
> > The ".edu" meens i are smart.
snip
> The name of Plant's dog was strider. In concert he would shout the
> dog's name after a performance of Bron-Y-Aur Stomp.(listen to a show
> from 1975 I believe, if not, '77)
>
You have printed the lyrics to a copyrighted song and then referred to a
bootleg album. (Destroyer) The ghost of Peter Grant will be descending
(rising?) to see that he and the band get their money!!!
O'Neil
Brian and Stephanie Fritzen
>
>
> I don't agree with The Lady being Galadriel. There are too many
> questions
> still left for that to work for me.
>
> Tolkien
> in Stairway to Heaven, which i tend to agree with. As for other songs,
> there
> is the Misty Mountain Hop (which i don't see much tolkien influence in
>
> except for the name) and the Battle of Evermore.
>
> Sha-Kel
>
My dear Sha-Kel, Have you read anything by Tolkien or ever listened
to Led Zep?
Who cares what a silly little faq on LZ says. Led Zep (Paige and the
boys) were huge fans of Tolkien. This song in particular has a ton to
do with Galadriel and the elves.
Side note - find Stairway to Heaven when Baromir dies at the Breaking of
the Fellowship. They are singing about the passing of elves and the new
age dawning upon middle earth. Buying the Stairway is her way of
passing on to the next world. How old are you? If your still in school
try discussing this with an English teacher or professor hopefully they
will shed some light on the subject.
Truly
Brian
Brian and Stephanie Fritzen
Mark A. Stone wrote:
> Previous post follows.
>
> Finding JRRT in Stairway to Heaven is a real stretch.
A real stretch huh? OK ok okok , uhmmm..... Try this....(I think I'll
speak slowly so you understand). Read (because you obviously haven't)
in The Fellowship Chapter 10 The Breaking of the Fellowship. What does
Frodo observe from atop the "great stair"?He sits on the seat and sees
the land all around. You can almost match all the references from
Stairway right there except for the Lady.Chapter 6 Lothlorien: The song
Legolas sings of Nimrodel can be sung to the tune of Stairway to
heaven. Read this chapter and you may find what you seek, but if not
let me present some evidence:
"They were clad wholly in white; and the hair of the Lady was of deep
gold..." and " ...a great light illuminated her and left all else dark."
The Lady talks of everything staying gold. She is buying the stairway
when she gives up her ring and "passes the test."
If you are still confused please write me back and I will find more.
Sorry about the sarcasm but you kinda asked for it.;-)
Brian
Glenn Gray
On 17 Jul 1997, Brian and Stephanie Fritzen wrote:
> My dear Sha-Kel, Have you read anything by Tolkien or ever listened
> to Led Zep?
(Congratulations on finally learning to spell the name of your "Master",
by the way).
> Who cares what a silly little faq on LZ says. Led Zep (Paige and the
> boys) were huge fans of Tolkien. This song in particular has a ton to
> do with Galadriel and the elves.
and LotR is a neat-o book doesn't mean the two are connected. Yes, Plant
went through a Tolkien phase. (BTW, it's "Page", not "Paige". Just
thought you should know). It is safe to say that the song was "inspired"
by Tolkien, but that's about it. It was as equally inspired by Celtic
myths in general, particularly the dubious work of Lewis Spence, which
Plant also liked.
> try discussing this with an English teacher or professor hopefully they
> will shed some light on the subject.
> Truly
> Brian
self-proclaimed English teacher who seems to enjoy being insulting and
idiotic at the same time. Not only is he misguided, but his writing and
logic are atrocious -- I cringe when I think of any student having to
endure this patronizing loon for a teacher.
Glenn Gray
grg...@wam.umd.edu
"I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being
gruntled."
--P.G. Wodehouse
Dan Lewerenz
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Tolkien references can be
found in some (maybe several) Zeppelin songs. "Stairway" is not one of
them.
Brian and Stephanie Fritzen wrote:
>
> My dear Sha-Kel, Have you read anything by Tolkien or ever listened
> to Led Zep?
I doubt it. I'm sure Sha-Kel is on this list because this is the best way
to find out about economic theory.
> Who cares what a silly little faq on LZ says. Led Zep (Paige and the
> boys) were huge fans of Tolkien. This song in particular has a ton to
> do with Galadriel and the elves.
Probably no one, of course and no it doesn't.
> Side note - find Stairway to Heaven when Baromir dies at the Breaking
> of the Fellowship. They are singing about the passing of elves and the
> new age dawning upon middle earth. Buying the Stairway is her way of
> passing on to the next world.
So what does Galadriel have to do with Boromir dying at the Breaking of
the Fellowship? Yes, she seems to have forseen it. But it's not like
Boromir's death means Galadriel has to head straight for the Havens
without passing Go or collecting her $200.
> How old are you? If your still in
> school try discussing this with an English teacher or professor
> hopefully they will shed some light on the subject.
That's a stupid thing to say, Brian. And frankly, I feel sorry for
Stephanie that her name has to appear on this e-mail, too. First off, an
English teacher or professor might shed some light on what *he* or *she*
thinks, but *a* person is never *they*, and the English teacher would
probably know this. Second, I doubt any English teacher or professor out
there is going to say, "Sha-Kel, you moron, of COURSE when the song
mentions a feeling when looking toward the West, it is written from the
perspective of the Elves who never saw the Light of the Trees, and Mordor
lies to the west of them. And Galadriel, having never met Aragorn
(remember "All that is gold does not glitter"?) because she doesn't like
the boys her granddaughter dates, thinks that all that glitters is gold.
Grow up. Here's the syllabus for my class."
Shooty
Brian and Stephanie Fritzen wrote:
>
OK. So this Bustle in the hedgerow, why is it a spring clean for the
~May Queen?
Shooty
Dan Lewerenz
Brian and Stephanie Fritzen wrote:
>
> > Finding JRRT in Stairway to Heaven is a real stretch.
>
> A real stretch huh? OK ok okok , uhmmm..... Try this....(I think I'll
> speak slowly so you understand).
Nice cutesy reference, genius-boy.
> Read (because you obviously haven't)
> in The Fellowship Chapter 10 The Breaking of the Fellowship. What does
> Frodo observe from atop the "great stair"?He sits on the seat and sees
> the land all around. You can almost match all the references from
> Stairway right there except for the Lady.
Oh, so Frodo's the Lady. Or is it Sam (this would answer the question
about Sam's sexuality)? And when he looks to the West, he sees ....? So
what's that feeling he gets?
> Chapter 6 Lothlorien: The song
> Legolas sings of Nimrodel can be sung to the tune of Stairway to
> heaven.
And the theme to "The Beverly Hillbillies" can be sung to the tune of
Black Sabbath's "Paranoid" (just ask Weird Al). So this proves ....?
> Read this chapter and you may find what you seek, but if not
> let me present some evidence:
> "They were clad wholly in white; and the hair of the Lady was of deep
> gold..." and " ...a great light illuminated her and left all else
> dark."
> The Lady talks of everything staying gold. She is buying the stairway
> when she gives up her ring and "passes the test."
But "When she gets there she knows, If the stores are all closed, With a
word she can get what she came for" (or something similar, I will admit I
don't know the song word-for-word). GALADRIEL IS NEITHER THIS VAIN NOR
THIS STUPID! Sure, when she leaves the world, she's going to a pretty
sweet place (although she does not know this -- for all she knows, the
power of her Ring will fade when Sauron once again wears the One Ring and
lays bare all that has been done with the Three). But it's not like
she'll have everything she wants. In fact, there is a great deal of
sadness for her in leaving Middle-earth when she "Buys the Stairway." She
alone remains of the Noldor who left Tuna, she alone of the great lords
who established their realms in Middle-earth. And the only reason she's
leaving is that everything she has done will begin to fade.
> If you are still confused please write me back and I will find more.
Please do, because (believe me) NO ONE on this list believes there is a
connection in this particular song but you.
> Sorry about the sarcasm but you kinda asked for it.;-)
Dan Lewerenz
Glenn Gray wrote:
>
> > passing on to the next world. How old are you? If your still in
> > hopefully they will shed some light on the subject.
> > Brian
> For the rest of you folks who don't know, this "Brian" is a
> self-proclaimed English teacher who seems to enjoy being insulting and
> idiotic at the same time. Not only is he misguided, but his writing
> and logic are atrocious -- I cringe when I think of any student having
> to endure this patronizing loon for a teacher.
Oh. Then I take back what I said about an English teacher correcting his
grammar. I'll assume the "your" above (as in "your still in school") is
just a typo and not a failure to understand the language he teaches. :)
Everything else stands.
Brian and Stephanie Fritzen
*yawn*
-Brian
Brian and Stephanie Fritzen
>
>
> OK. So this Bustle in the hedgerow, why is it a spring clean for the
> ~May Queen?
>
> Shooty
The bustle I believe occurs when the fellowship enters the forest of the
elves. Elves come out of the trees and 'capture them.'As with all works
of fiction it is open to interpretation. I do believe this might allude
to the elves moving on. When you spring clean you get rid of everything
that is old. The elves are an elder race in middle earth. That may be
a stretch but it has been a while since I sat down and read the book.
Brian
Shooty
Brian and Stephanie Fritzen wrote:
>
> >
> >
This is a Troll right?
Shooty
Brian and Stephanie Fritzen
> You can almost match all the references from
> > Stairway right there except for the Lady.
>
> Oh, so Frodo's the Lady. Or is it Sam (this would answer the question
> about Sam's sexuality)? And when he looks to the West, he sees ....?
> So
> what's that feeling he gets?
> But "When she gets there she knows, If the stores are all closed, With
> a
> word she can get what she came for" (or something similar, I will
> admit I
> don't know the song word-for-word). GALADRIEL IS NEITHER THIS VAIN NOR
>
> THIS STUPID!
Open to interpretation. Obviously for you there is only one view of the
world : yours.I believe that the stores being closed means that there is
nowhere for her to go. "With a word she can get what she came for" this
may be her view of heaven. "Buying the stairway" buying with the lives
of the elves as they pass on. Again it is open (open being the key
word) to interpretation.
> Sure, when she leaves the world, she's going to a pretty
> sweet place (although she does not know this -- for all she knows, the
>
> power of her Ring will fade when Sauron once again wears the One Ring
> and
> lays bare all that has been done with the Three).
The Three what? Three rings for the Elves, but there are the Nine for
the humans and seven for the dwarves. One for the Dark Lord.
> But it's not like
> she'll have everything she wants. In fact, there is a great deal of
> sadness for her in leaving Middle-earth when she "Buys the Stairway."
Maybe that is what Plant's moaning is about.
> She
> alone remains of the Noldor who left Tuna, she alone of the great
> lords
> who established their realms in Middle-earth. And the only reason
> she's
> leaving is that everything she has done will begin to fade.
So you agree.
>
>
> > If you are still confused please write me back and I will find more.
>
> Please do, because (believe me) NO ONE on this list believes there is
> a
> connection in this particular song but you.
>
> > Sorry about the sarcasm but you kinda asked for it.;-)
>
Montgomery Burns
> > "Ramble On" where Gollum steals the singer's girlfriend off of the steps
> > of Mordor. But my impression is that they were using Lord of the Rings at
> > the time in some lyrics because it was very popular at the time
> > (approximately 1970), and it was smart marketing.
>
> contains the obvious references.
>
> Mike
Isn't Misty Mountain Hop the name of a chapter in the Hobbit?...
Glenn Gray
On 17 Jul 1997, Brian and Stephanie Fritzen wrote:
> "They were clad wholly in white; and the hair of the Lady was of deep
> gold..." and " ...a great light illuminated her and left all else dark."
> The Lady talks of everything staying gold. She is buying the stairway
> when she gives up her ring and "passes the test."
BTW, where do you teach and what grade level?
an...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
In article <5qk1ot$4h1$1...@news.gte.net>, Brian and Stephanie Fritzen
<smd...@gte.net> wrote:
> My dear Sha-Kel, Have you read anything by Tolkien or ever listened
> to Led Zep?
> Who cares what a silly little faq on LZ says. Led Zep (Paige and the
> boys) were huge fans of Tolkien. This song in particular has a ton to
> do with Galadriel and the elves.
> Side note - find Stairway to Heaven when Baromir dies at the Breaking of
> the Fellowship. They are singing about the passing of elves and the new
> age dawning upon middle earth. Buying the Stairway is her way of
> passing on to the next world. How old are you? If your still in school
> try discussing this with an English teacher or professor hopefully they
> will shed some light on the subject.
> Truly
> Brian
and then...
>Open to interpretation. Obviously for you there is only one view of the
>world : yours.I believe that the stores being closed means that there is
>nowhere for her to go. "With a word she can get what she came for" this
>may be her view of heaven. "Buying the stairway" buying with the lives
>of the elves as they pass on. Again it is open (open being the key
>word) to interpretation.
Perhaps if you agree that this is open to interpretation, you should not
have entered into the thread with such a condescending tone! You only
open yourself up to all the derision that you got.
Now go sit in a corner until you can behave.
O'Neil
Brian and Stephanie Fritzen
Glenn Gray wrote:
> Oh, I'm so convinced. The correlations you find are tenuous at
> best.
> BTW, where do you teach and what grade level?
>
I teach the 10 th grade in Sarasota Florida. What is your talent?
Other than debasing anyone with a different view than your own.Tenuous
that is it? Do you have any proof that Stairway has nothing to do with
the Lady Galadriel. Or the Fellowship? That is what the discussion is
about isn't it. Just dismissing my notion as 'tenuous at best' without
any documentation to back up your argument does not do you justice.
Bring some facts disproving what I have shown. Really look at what
Frodo observes from atop the "great stair." Compare them to the song.
Look at what Tolkien wrote about the Lady and look at the lyrics as I
have.
Try to convince me and the others that may see the same as I do.
Glenn Gray
On 17 Jul 1997, Brian and Stephanie Fritzen wrote:
Something. If the author has a noun in a poem, then of course it "means"
something.
> What is your talent?
For the time being, deflating your absurd notions.
> that is it? Do you have any proof that Stairway has nothing to do with
> the Lady Galadriel. Or the Fellowship? That is what the discussion is
allowed that the song may well have been "inspired" by JRRT, among other
sources, including the aforementioned Lewis Spence. The problem here is
your high-handed "proof" that the song relates directly to LotR. Your
"proof" smacks of High School Englishitis. If the song were to correlate
as you say why don't Page and Plant just say so? They would have nothing
to lose and a lot to gain. Next thing, you'll be suggesting we read LotR
backwards so we can find the hidden messages.
> any documentation to back up your argument does not do you justice.
> Bring some facts disproving what I have shown. Really look at what
rather reminiscent of conspiracy nuts. The song can be interpreted on one
level as dealing with materialism -- not exactly a hot topic during the
War of the Ring. References to "stores" and "heaven" -- neither of which
are mentioned in LotR in the same context as in the song -- are simply out
of place in this context. You are falling into the high school English
trap of trying to "force" things to fit -- in short, you are arguing
casuistically.
> Try to convince me and the others that may see the same as I do.
You're going to believe what you want to believe, however scant the
evidence.
Glenn Gray
On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Shooty wrote:
> Brian and Stephanie Fritzen wrote:
> This is a Troll right?
> Shooty
Brian and Stephanie Fritzen
Glenn Gray wrote:
> Well, that explains a few things. Symbolism 101, or, Everything
> Means
> Something. If the author has a noun in a poem, then of course it
> "means"
> something.
> > What is your talent?
> For the time being, deflating your absurd notions.
So you are participating in this discussion because...?
>
>
> The problem here is
> your high-handed "proof" that the song relates directly to LotR.
So.... since you cannot come up with anything you resort to insults.
Hmmm....
> Your
> "proof" smacks of High School Englishitis. If the song were to
> correlate
> as you say why don't Page and Plant just say so?
Did they deny it somewhere? If so tell me and I'll concede the match.
> They would have nothing
> to lose and a lot to gain. Next thing, you'll be suggesting we read
> LotR
> backwards so we can find the hidden messages.
No hidden messages, just strong correlations.
>
>
> The only "proof" you have offered is wishful thinking on your part,
> rather reminiscent of conspiracy nuts.
Not really, others believe they see connections between the two.
> The song can be interpreted on one
> level as dealing with materialism -- not exactly a hot topic during
> the
> War of the Ring. References to "stores" and "heaven" -- neither of
> which
> are mentioned in LotR in the same context as in the song -- are simply
> out
> of place in this context.
Are they? War is upon the land and the elves do not look to fight.
They will surely find doors closed to them.
> You are falling into the high school English
> trap of trying to "force" things to fit -- in short, you are arguing
> casuistically.
Point taken I will try to connect more betwixt the two.
>
> I think you're beyond hope, and I feel the same way for your fan
> club.
> You're going to believe what you want to believe, however scant the
> evidence.
>
>
I'm not the one beyond hope just because I disagree with you. They
should be teaching you that at the college your in...or are you at
summer camp?<Bowing respectfully>
The match has just begun. ;-)
Brian
Glenn Gray
On 18 Jul 1997, Brian and Stephanie Fritzen wrote:
> Glenn Gray wrote:
> > For the time being, deflating your absurd notions.
> So you are participating in this discussion because...?
> So.... since you cannot come up with anything you resort to insults.
connection. That's what you're trying to do, and not well. (I should
point out that it was you who got personal w/ people on this list before I
started giving you a piece of my mind). Since Plant
to the best of my knowledge never said there is a direct, line-by-line,
word-for-word correlation, and since plenty of well-read, well-versed, and
well-educated individuals familiar w/ both sources (including people on
this ng) don't see a connection, there is no reason to believe the song
relates directly to the supposed source. Thus far I don't think you have
any converts on this group, although I'm sure there are others who think
as you do.
> > "proof" smacks of High School Englishitis. If the song were to
> > correlate
> > as you say why don't Page and Plant just say so?
> Did they deny it somewhere? If so tell me and I'll concede the match.
absolutely, definitively say for sure; however, if they have said there is
a direct connection I must have missed it. I'd always heard that Plant
was writing in part in response to the work of Lewis Spence (see O.Sharp's
excellent response elsewhere on this thread). Again, I allow that
Galadriel specifically and JRRT more broadly *may* have been an
inspirational spark for the song, but I don't buy your "thesis". I think
you're reducing the lyrics to the banality of a crossword puzzle. There is
more going on in the song of a general nature pertaining to myths than to
JRRT specifically.
> > level as dealing with materialism -- not exactly a hot topic during
> > the
> > War of the Ring. References to "stores" and "heaven" -- neither of
> > which
> > are mentioned in LotR in the same context as in the song -- are simply
> > out
> > of place in this context.
> Are they? War is upon the land and the elves do not look to fight.
> They will surely find doors closed to them.
these words mean what you want them to mean. Now, if they had called the
song "Stairway to (The Grey) Havens"...
> I'm not the one beyond hope just because I disagree with you. They
> should be teaching you that at the college your in...or are you at
wondering if you browbeat your students the same way you browbeat Sha-
Kel, Shooty, and others. Is this now considered an acceptable teaching
method?
Methaphors be with you,
an...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
In article <5qls4n$t5e$1...@gte1.gte.net>, Brian and Stephanie Fritzen
<smd...@gte.net> wrote:
> an...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu wrote:
>
> >
> > Perhaps if you agree that this is open to interpretation, you should
> > not have entered into the thread with such a condescending tone! You only
> > open yourself up to all the derision that you got.
> >
> > Now go sit in a corner until you can behave.
> >
> > O'Neil
>
> And this pertains to the thread in question how......?
The bulk of what has been said in this thread has not been pertaining to
the lyrics and whether or not they were based on LotR. For that I blame
you, sir, and the attitude you took when you addressed Sha-Kel.
>My dear Sha-Kel, Have you read anything by Tolkien or ever listened to Led Zep?
That sounds to me like condescension. And the fact that your belief
turned out to be not shared by very many people makes it completely
unwarranted. Holier-than-thou often backfires.
Further -
>How old are you? If your still in school try discussing this with an
English >teacher or professor hopefully they
>will shed some light on the subject.
is downright rude and insulting. From there, more mud flew than
constructive dialogue. You set the tone.
At least you had the guts to expose yourself to attack by posting your
occupation. Teaching is a noble profession - so long as you don't insult
your students.
I personally think that the song was influenced by a Mandrake root as much
as anything else! You have to admit they were doing a lot of
mind-altering drugs at the time, and so it seems to me that some of the
lyrics don't 'mean' anything.
Your head is humming and it won't go
and did you know... Peaking again, Robert?
O. Sharp
Sadly, Brian Fritzen (smd...@gte.net) has written to r.a.b.t. thusly:
: My dear Sha-Kel, Have you read anything by Tolkien or ever listened
: to Led Zep?
and:
: Who cares what a silly little faq on LZ says.
and:
: How old are you? If your still in school
: try discussing this with an English teacher or professor hopefully they
: will shed some light on the subject.
and:
: A real stretch huh? OK ok okok , uhmmm..... Try this....(I think I'll
: speak slowly so you understand). Read (because you obviously haven't)
: in The Fellowship Chapter 10 The Breaking of the Fellowship [...]
and dismissed an entire (unnamed) argument with:
: *yawn*
...and then, after doing all _that_, had the sheer gall and temerity to ask
_another_ poster:
: [...] What is your talent?
: Other than debasing anyone with a different view than your own.
Uh, Brian... is this not becoming _your_ talent?
You'll forgive my pointing it out, but politeness counts. Remember, on
Usenet we have nothing to judge you by but your words... and if you
choose words that make you look like an opinionated, condesdending _ass_,
then that's the impression we'll all have of you from now on. :/
Something to think about. :) :)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
o...@netcom.com Oh, and to quote you one more time:
: Sorry about the sarcasm but you kinda asked for it.;-)
O. Sharp
Just as a point of information, too, I'll toss this out:
: > If the song [Stairway to Heaven] were to correlate
: > as you say why don't Page and Plant just say so?
: Did they deny it somewhere? If so tell me and I'll concede the match.
And as long as we're at it, did they deny an influence from Steinbeck's
_The Grapes of Wrath_? If so, tell me and... :) :)
Seriously, though, Robert Plant has himself stated that his primary
inspiration for "Stairway to Heaven" was Lewis Spence's _Magic Arts in
Celtic Britain_. A list of influences on "Stairway" was given by Plant to
biographer Stephen Davis, who described those influences in _Hammer of
the Gods_, most likely the best-researched of the Led Zeppelin bios. I
quote the passage here:
"The song tells, in poetic terms, of a mythographic lady's quest for
spiritual perfection. She is a paradigm of Spenser's Faerie Queen, Robert
Graves' White Goddess, and every other Celtic heroine - the Lady of the
Lake, Morgan La Fey, Diana of the Fields Greene, Rhiannon the Nightmare.
Robert had been poring through the works of the British antiquarian Lewis
Spence. He later cited Spence's 'Magic Arts in Celtic Britain' as one of
the sources for the lyrics to 'Stairway'. (The title was already familiar
to movie buffs as the title of a 1946 mystery starring William Powell.)
With its starkly pagan imagery of trees and brooks, pipers and the May
Queen, shining white light and the forest echoing with laughter,
'Stairway to Heaven' seemed like an invitation to abandon the new
traditions and follow the old gods."
Note, please, that the names of both Galadriel and JRRT are conspicuously
absent form this list. :)
: [...] If so tell me and I'll concede the match.
"Match"? Is literary criticism, then, a competitive sport? Are there
victors and losers? Is the quest to share and learn knowledge, and to
enjoy one another's differing views and perceptions, best described as...
a "match"?
I think I sense a basic perceptual problem here. :)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
o...@netcom.com Oh, wait! I see. We're crossposted to "alt.games.doom". :)
Wanderlust
>Brian and Stephanie Fritzen wrote:
> > Oh, I'm so convinced. The correlations you find are tenuous at
> > best.
> > BTW, where do you teach and what grade level?
> >
>
> I teach the 10 th grade in Sarasota Florida. What is your talent?
> Other than debasing anyone with a different view than your own.
"Sword drawn, and talk of peace?"
In the beginning, all you (Brian) could think of, was bashing other's points of view and
saying that yours was right and everyone else's was wrong. Now you are saying that's
everyone is doing it to you. Take a look at yourself!
> Do you have any proof that Stairway has nothing to do with
> the Lady Galadriel. Or the Fellowship? That is what the discussion is
> about isn't it. Just dismissing my notion as 'tenuous at best' without
> any documentation to back up your argument does not do you justice.
> Bring some facts disproving what I have shown.
I thought an English teacher would know that literature and lyrics have very little to
do with proof. Many songs and poems are very abstract with mixed ideas. You can't
explain them although they may convey a message. Maybe your right, maybe your not.
Who's to say?
fca...@cisnet.com
Montgomery Burns wrote:
> Isn't Misty Mountain Hop the name of a chapter in the Hobbit?...
This is a song about what happens in England if you go walking in the
park and you have a packet of cigarette papers in your pocket and
something to put in the cigarette papers and things don't go quite so
well as they should...
R. Plant, introducing Misty Mountain Hop, Mobile, Alabama 1973
The Dark Lord
As you've seen the discussion so far it is kind of up in the air about
Stairway.
But Battle of Evermore always makes me want to read the books and
Ramble On mentions Mordor.
later
Brian
Paul
I'm not sure if anyone knows this but being an avid Led Zeppelin fan I had
to mention it. Everyone has been talking about the song "Ramble On"
mentioning Mordor, but no one has said anything about it mentioning Gollum.
Check the lyrics--it's in there.
"Twas in the darkest depths of Mordor, I met a girl so fair.
But Gollum, and the Evil Wall, crept up and slipped away with her, her,
her, yeah."
Just thought I'd point that out.
Paul
The Dark Lord
> On 24 Jul 1997, NeoSurfer wrote:
> > >"Twas in the darkest depths of Mordor, I met a girl so
> fair.
> > > But Gollum, and the Evil Wall, crept up and slipped
> away with her, her,
> > >her, yeah."
> > Isn't it, "But Gollum, THE EVIL ONE, crept up and
> slipped away with her"??
> > -Debbie Plant
> Glen Gray wrote:
> I heard that Plant recently approved of a published lyric
>
> that had it as "golem", as in the folklore creature. I
> only heard it in
> passing, so I can't say for sure, but perhaps he is trying
> to move aware
> from having his lyrics too closely associated w/ JRRT
Yet the phrase "Darkest depths of Mordor" does not convince
you?Sorry, but this actually refers to the books.
> -- despite the
> efforts of many desperte people to the contrary.
>
>
We are so "desperte" (es este espanol?) that we are
imagining the word Mordor written in plain text.The Dark
Lords shall ride again.
Brian
Glenn Gray
On 24 Jul 1997, NeoSurfer wrote:
> >"Twas in the darkest depths of Mordor, I met a girl so fair.
> > But Gollum, and the Evil Wall, crept up and slipped away with her, her,
> >her, yeah."
> Isn't it, "But Gollum, THE EVIL ONE, crept up and slipped away with her"??
> -Debbie Plant
Interestingly, I heard that Plant recently approved of a published lyric
that had it as "golem", as in the folklore creature. I only heard it in
passing, so I can't say for sure, but perhaps he is trying to move aware
efforts of many desperte people to the contrary.
Glenn Gray
NeoSurfer
"Paul " writes:
>"Twas in the darkest depths of Mordor, I met a girl so fair.
> But Gollum, and the Evil Wall, crept up and slipped away with her, her,
>her, yeah."
Isn't it, "But Gollum, THE EVIL ONE, crept up and slipped away with her"??
-Debbie Plant
************************************************
"But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him."
-Battle of the Pelennor Fields
Paul
>Isn't it, "But Gollum, THE EVIL ONE, crept up and slipped away with her"??
> -Debbie Plant
Yes, you're correct, my mistake. Thanks.
David A Mattox
> There's a feeling I get
> When I look to the west, //reference to Mordor
isnt Mordor int the east, read the sil. to learn of the west
> And my spirit is crying for leaving.
> In my thoughts I have seen
> Rings of smoke through the trees,
> And the voices of those who standing looking.
> Ooh, it makes me wonder,
> Ooh, it really makes me wonder.
Nothofagus
David A Mattox <dma...@bellatlantic.net> wrote
>> There's a feeling I get
>> When I look to the west, //reference to Mordor
>
>isnt Mordor int the east, read the sil. to learn of the west
Well, I suppose you could be looking _from_ Mordor to the west?
But I'm playing Morgoth's Advocate - of course this _isn't_ a reference
to Mordor.
Nothofagus
Wiggum
DDownes112 wrote:
>
> "Roll over Tolkientoven"
>
> I wonder if Professor Tolkien would consider his life complete, and
> his work finally appreciated if he knew some narcotic drenched musician
> from England included 'snipits' of refrences from The Hobbit, and LOTR in
> a FEW songs.
> Point is...You can convince yourself everything is related to
> anything...if you want it to be. Jimmy Page was, and is fond of Tolkiens
> work, or anything occult, and included in my recolection 2 passages; "In
> the darkest depths of Morder..... and, The Misty Mountain Hop." Yes...I
> agree, sombody is stretcccccchhhhhing it.
>
> Thank you for allowing me a personal point of view on this particular
> subject.
>
> 'Dewain' at DDown...@Aol.Com (Ten time LOTR reader, musician, and
> Holder of every Zep album ever made.
Actually, Page wrote the music and Plant was the lyricist for Led
Zeppelin. Maybe another read of LOTR is nescessary, as Mordor is
spelled as such. Having written lyrics myself, I know that I am only a
product of my influences, and seeing how Plant was a big Tolkien fan, it
is only logical that some of his writing would be worked into Led
Zeppelin's lyrics. Also, try listening to The Battle of Evermore, No
Quarter and Carouselambra as well. BoE has direct references and the
latter two have the same flavor as Tolkien.
Wiggum
--
"What we have here is your average two-dimensional square..."
---"Whoa, whoa, slow down egghead."
DDownes112
David Fresko
Wiggum <oz...@mc.net> wrote:
>Also, try listening to The Battle of Evermore, No
>Quarter and Carouselambra as well. BoE has direct references and the
>latter two have the same flavor as Tolkien.
I definitely agree on these three as well as Ramble On and Stairway, but
credit must be given to John Paul Jones who wrote No Quarter and
Carouselambra.
Dave
Burns Waggener
Glenn Gray wrote:
> On 24 Jul 1997, The Dark Lord wrote:
> > > On 24 Jul 1997, NeoSurfer wrote:
> > > > >"Twas in the darkest depths of Mordor, I met a girl so
> > > fair.
> > > > > But Gollum, and the Evil Wall, crept up and slipped
> > > away with her, her,
> > > > >her, yeah."
> > > > Isn't it, "But Gollum, THE EVIL ONE, crept up and
> > > slipped away with her"??
> > > > -Debbie Plant
> > > Glen Gray wrote:
> > > I heard that Plant recently approved of a published lyric
> > > that had it as "golem", as in the folklore creature. I
> > > only heard it in
> > > passing, so I can't say for sure, but perhaps he is trying
> > > to move aware
> > > from having his lyrics too closely associated w/ JRRT
> > Yet the phrase "Darkest depths of Mordor" does not convince
> > you?Sorry, but this actually refers to the books.
> > > -- despite the
> > > efforts of many desperte people to the contrary.
> > We are so "desperte" (es este espanol?) that we are
> > imagining the word Mordor written in plain text.The Dark
> > Lords shall ride again.
> > Brian
> You misunderstood. I have never denied the presence of the word
> Mordor
> in that song. I have also never denied the presence of "ringwraiths"
> in
> the Battle of Evermore, and the title "misty Mountain Hop." Also, in
> "Ramble ON" it does sound like Gollum to me. The point I was making
> is
> that it seems as if Plant is now trying to back away from being too
> closely associated w/ JRRT (if what I heard was true). So you see, we
> do
> agree on some things. These are really the only solid Tolkien
> references,
> the rest is all conjecture. Meeting a girl so fair in Mordor doesn't
> tie
> in very well w/ LotR, which lends credence to the notion that Plant
> was
> just throwing a jumble of references around. The really amusing part,
> and
> the desperation to which I referred, is when people take the
> non-specifically Tolkien references and try to instill them w/
> meaning.
> Glenn Gray
> grg...@wam.umd.edu
>
> "I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being
> gruntled."
> --P.G. Wodehouse
I always took the reference of " a girl so fair" as meaning the "One
Ring".
Anyone have any thoughts on this possibility?
--Burns
Nothofagus
Burns Waggener <bu...@texas.net> wrote
>I always took the reference of " a girl so fair" as meaning the "One
>Ring".
>Anyone have any thoughts on this possibility?
Well, anything's possible, but there's nothing to back the idea up, is
there? This is your inference rather than LZ's implication.
I mean, he met this girl "just in the darkest depths of Mordor", and
Gollum "crept up and slipped away with her" - none of that exactly
follows any of Tolkien's stories.
I think P&P were just writing things that sounded nice to them, and
drawing rather unsubtly (sp?) on the things they loved. They were
equally unsubtle in drawing on old blues numbers, and apparently not
always too good at giving credit where it was due!
Nothofagus
Rich Kurowski
Burns Waggener (bu...@texas.net) wrote:
:
: I always took the reference of " a girl so fair" as meaning the "One
: Ring".
: Anyone have any thoughts on this possibility?
I think the connection is pretty tenuous. Neither Frodo nor Bilbo
came across the ring in Mordor. And Gollum never "crept up and
slipped away" with it. And for that matter, Gollum wasn't really
"evil", as stated in the song. I think Plant was just throwing in
a few nods to the trilogy, rather than actually writing about
anything that happened in it. I think the "girl" he mentions was
just that--a girl.
Rich Kurowski
scr...@interaccess.com
The Dark Lord
Nothofagus wrote:
> Burns Waggener <bu...@texas.net> wrote
> >I always took the reference of " a girl so fair" as
> meaning the "One
> >Ring".
> >Anyone have any thoughts on this possibility?
>
> Well, anything's possible, but there's nothing to back the
> idea up, is
> there? This is your inference rather than LZ's
> implication.
>
> I mean, he met this girl "just in the darkest depths of
> Mordor", and
> Gollum "crept up and slipped away with her" - none of that
> exactly
> follows any of Tolkien's stories.
>
I believe this has to do with the Hobbit not LOTR. Gollum
stole the ring from Bilbo for a brief period of time if I
recall correctly.Brian
Gordo
In article <5sau0h$bp9$2...@gte2.gte.net>, smd...@gte.net says...
the 'girl so fair' is the ring, 'gollum slipping away with her' is gollum
falling into the cracks of doom with it. straight from the mouth of Robert
Plant.
"Do what no one else does and praise the good of other men for good men's sake,
and when everyone else in the world follows your lead (although a cold day in
Hell it will surely be), that's when the entire world shall live in harmony."
Derek Weimer
In article <DhwOKAAQ...@eskape.demon.co.uk>, Nothofagus
<esk...@eskape.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Burns Waggener <bu...@texas.net> wrote
>I always took the reference of " a girl so fair" as meaning the "One
>Ring".
>Anyone have any thoughts on this possibility?
I read (I think it was in Hammer of the Gods, or the Rolling Stone review by
Robert Palmer) that Page and Plant were big Tolkien fans. Overall it is
known that they were big fans of that "Celtic" heroic genre.
Derek
Wiggum
> >
> >> Burns Waggener <bu...@texas.net> wrote
> >> >I always took the reference of " a girl so fair" as
> >> meaning the "One
> >> >Ring".
> >> >Anyone have any thoughts on this possibility?
> >>
> >> idea up, is
> >> there? This is your inference rather than LZ's
> >> implication.
> >>
> >> I mean, he met this girl "just in the darkest depths of
> >> Mordor", and
> >> Gollum "crept up and slipped away with her" - none of that
> >> exactly
> >> follows any of Tolkien's stories.
> >>
> >
> >I believe this has to do with the Hobbit not LOTR. Gollum
> >stole the ring from Bilbo for a brief period of time if I
> >recall correctly.Brian
>
> the 'girl so fair' is the ring, 'gollum slipping away with her' is gollum
> falling into the cracks of doom with it. straight from the mouth of Robert
> Plant.
>
> "Do what no one else does and praise the good of other men for good men's sake,
> and when everyone else in the world follows your lead (although a cold day in
> Hell it will surely be), that's when the entire world shall live in harmony."
I'm just curious to know what your source is?
Nothofagus
The Dark Lord <smd...@gte.net> wrote
>Glenn Gray wrote:
>
>> Nice try, pal. Bilbo & Gollum never went to Mordor in
>> The Hobbit.
>>
>
>No they didn't did they? My mistake. :)
>Brian
>
>
I'm curious, tho, about your recollection of Gollum stealing the ring
back for a while. I'm sure it's not any copy or version of TABA that
I've read - and yet it does just chime the faintest of bells. Was there
a version in which this happened?
Nothofagus
Nothofagus
Badgerdeth <badge...@aol.com> wrote
>In article <5sau0h$bp9$2...@gte2.gte.net>, The Dark Lord <smd...@gte.net>
>writes:
>
>>>
>>> I mean, he met this girl "just in the darkest depths of
>>> Mordor", and
>>> Gollum "crept up and slipped away with her" - none of that
>>> exactly
>>> follows any of Tolkien's stories.
>>>
>
>
>they were clearly influenced heavily by them.
Oh yeah, clearly, I'm not denying that. But you can't map any of the
songs onto the stories. For instance there's nothing in the song to
justify the claim that the "girl so fair" is the Ring. Somebody said
that Robert Plant stated that it is; if that's so then I think it
devalues the song, because it's a piss-poor metaphor with nothing to
justify it in the rest of the lyrics, or in LOTR. Why not just say "I
found a ring so fair"? Oh no, that wouldn't rhyme would it.
Nothofagus
Badgerdeth
>>
>> I mean, he met this girl "just in the darkest depths of
>> Mordor", and
>> Gollum "crept up and slipped away with her" - none of that
>> exactly
>> follows any of Tolkien's stories.
>>
I don't think that ANY of Led Zepplin's songs followed the stories...but
they were clearly influenced heavily by them.
BadgerDeth
http://members.aol.com/badgerdeth
Eclectic links, growing in fits and starts...check me out!
raven1
The Dark Lord wrote:
>
> Nothofagus wrote:
>
> > Burns Waggener <bu...@texas.net> wrote
> > >I always took the reference of " a girl so fair" as
> > meaning the "One
> > >Ring".
> > >Anyone have any thoughts on this possibility?
> >
> > Well, anything's possible, but there's nothing to back the
> > idea up, is
> > there? This is your inference rather than LZ's
> > implication.
> >
> > Mordor", and
> > Gollum "crept up and slipped away with her" - none of that
> > exactly
> > follows any of Tolkien's stories.
> >
>
> stole the ring from Bilbo for a brief period of time if I
> recall correctly.Brian
You don't recall correctly. Bilbo kept the ring from the moment of its
finding, he also never ventured anywhere near Mordor.
Plant was certainly inspired by LOTR, but he was just using the names,
not referring to anything specifically from the trilogy.
--
"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams."
-Willy Wonka
The Dark Lord
> I'm curious, tho, about your recollection of Gollum
> stealing the ring
> back for a while. I'm sure it's not any copy or version of
> TABA that
> I've read - and yet it does just chime the faintest of
> bells. Was there
> a version in which this happened?
> Nothofagus
I am going to watch the Hobbit again I think that is where I
remeber it.Brian
The Dark Lord
The Dark Lord wrote:
>
>
> Try Battle of Evermore although there is a reference to
> King
> Arthur's final resting place:Avalon also. Most of it
> talks
> of the journey, Galadriel, Aragorn, Ringwraiths, and the
> final battle.
> Brian
Also Numenor was named Avallone when it sank.
Gordo
In article <4ESSKWAK...@eskape.demon.co.uk>, esk...@eskape.demon.co.uk
says...
>
>Badgerdeth <badge...@aol.com> wrote
>>>> Mordor", and
>>>> Gollum "crept up and slipped away with her" - none of that
>>>> exactly
>>>> follows any of Tolkien's stories.
>>>>
>>
>>
>>they were clearly influenced heavily by them.
>
>songs onto the stories. For instance there's nothing in the song to
>justify the claim that the "girl so fair" is the Ring. Somebody said
>that Robert Plant stated that it is; if that's so then I think it
>devalues the song, because it's a piss-poor metaphor with nothing to
>justify it in the rest of the lyrics, or in LOTR. Why not just say "I
>found a ring so fair"? Oh no, that wouldn't rhyme would it.
>
>Nothofagus
That was me. I read it in some horrible poster magazine about Led Zeppelin
when I was about 12. I wouldn't say it was "a piss-poor metaphor", since it
just means that Frodo had gone a long way without giving in to the temptation
to claim the ring for his own, but, by doing so on Mount Doom, he "met a girl
so fair" (i.e. taking all the ring's power for himself) only to lose it all
seconds later (Gollum the evil one slipping away with her).
The Dark Lord
>
>
> I don't think that ANY of Led Zepplin's songs followed the
> stories...but
> they were clearly influenced heavily by them.
>
Try Battle of Evermore although there is a reference to King
Rich Kurowski
Richard Neville (rnev...@acay.com.au) wrote:
: Kashmir:
: "sit with elders of the gentle race
: This world has seldom seen
: They talk of days for which they sit and wait
: All will be revealed
: Talk and song from tongues of lilting grace"
: (surely an Elven reference)
There are no Elves in Kashmir! :-)
Rich Kurowski
scr...@interaccess.com
Glenn Gray
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Dellinger wrote:
> I haven't followed this thread so sorry if I have missed this already,
> but... There is another song (just heard it again yesterday) with a
> line about Mordor...can't remember the song or the line, sorry. Any
> one else no what I am "trying" to talk about?
> Dellinger
You're thinking of "Ramble On." You want to go to dejanews to catch up
on this thread.