Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony"

25 views
Skip to first unread message

Hashemon Urtasman

unread,
Mar 14, 2004, 9:30:46 PM3/14/04
to

Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony

You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/
or sign up for coming chapters over there.

Relevant questions are indicated in the synopsis in [] brackets.

SYNOPSIS
---------
The company travels the four miles to the village of Bree, a journey
which should take about 1 to two hours walking. The region of Bree-land
is in by small area which is inhabited, with wild lands [1] all around
that.

(Background on Bree)


The Men of Bree were brown, broad, and short, and had lived there for a
long time, descendents of the first Men to come there [2]. They were
more familiar with Elves, men, and dwarves than other 'Big people.' The
other group to live in Bree-land were hobbits, and *they* too (nudge
nudge, wink wink, see the italicized 'they' in the text) claimed to be
the oldest settlement of hobbits in the world. Nowhere but in Bree did
Hobbits and Men live together in cooperation, which is said to be
peculiar but 'excellent.'

Shire hobbits considered Bree hobbits to be dull and uncouth, and called
them 'Outsiders.' [4] While the Bree hobbits were decent people, some
of the non-Shire hobbits were like tramps, simply digging holes in the
ground to live in when they felt like it.

Synopsis (cont)
------------

They reach the gate by dark. They are told by the gatekeeper that there
are 'queer folk about' and the inn has some guests. A dark figure
enters the city after them by jumping over the gate. They find
'The Prancing Pony' inn, with a picture of a fat pony standing on its
hind legs. Barliman Butterbur is there, who is said to be fat and bald
[5]. Barliman's assistant is a cherubic and perky hobbit named "Nob"
[6]. He shows them to their rooms where they have dinner, and join the
company in the common-room.

There are many men, local hobbits and dwarves in the common-room, all
talking. The 4 are introduced, and he the local hobbits are friendly
and inquisitive. They ask a lot of questions, so Frodo lies and says
that he writing a book on the hobbits living outside the Shire. They
joyfully give him so much information that he would have been able to
write the book after all, but then they settle down after he doesn't
seem to be doing anything about it right there and then.

Frodo sees Strider [8] sitting alone, who invites Frodo to sit with him.
While they are talking, Pippin begins to tell a story about Bilbo's
birthday party. It sounds like Pippin may be giving away the part about
the disappearance, so [9] Frodo steps in and says thank-you and
good-night from all of them. But the company asks for a song. So Frodo
begins to sing [10]. They love it, but during Frodos encore he gets
excited, and jumps up into the air and the ring slips on his finger [11] .

The whole crowd is amazed that Frodo has seemingly vanished into thin
air. He crawls into a corner, takes the ring off and comes before them,
but they still treat him suspiciously and they all leave the room in a
hurry [12] [13]. Butterbur tells Frodo to warn him and the guests
before doing any magic tricks again, because they don't take kindly to
surprises. They plan to leave by eight in the morning, and Butterbur
promises to tell Frodo something important that he has remembered. Then
Frodo goes off to bed, suspicious of everyone and everything.


QUESTIONS
------------

1. What type of 'wild lands' were around Bree?

2. What event are they referring to when they said 'the kings of men
returned' from over the sea?

3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.

4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?

5. Barliman makes a joke about Ranges and Shire folk both being weird.


"there's no accounting for east and west, meaning the Rangers and the
Shirefolk, begging your pardon."

Bree seems to be 'between' Shire hobbits and Rangers, geographically,
culturally, physically, in skin colour, and hair colour. Breelanders
are both sedentary, and have access to travellers and their news. So
what is that all about?


6. Nob: This name seems to be from another English novel. Is it a young
boy from one of Dickens novels?

7. Mugworts: What could Mug-wort mean? Is this a name Harry Potter took
from Tolkien or what?

8. What is a lankard? (Strider carries one.)


9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this
mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
remember this, being a ranger.


10. 'Only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered. This seems
to be a reference to the rhyme "Hey diddle diddle, the cat and a
fiddle...the cow jumped over the moon" which looks like it is derived
from Tolkien's made up poem.

Here it seems that Tolkien 'invented' a geneology for the real life
nursery rhyme. This is the sort of thing Tolkien seems to have done
with LOTR as a whole, first inventing the story and then inventing the
mythology it derives from.


11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

12. Southerners mixed up with swarthy breelanders were the spies of the
enemy. Ob discussion: the race issue.

13. Most of the locals left after seeing the magic act, but the dwarves
and strange men stayed a bit longer. Does this mean that Breelanders
were more fearful of the wider world, but the foreign men and dwarves,
obviously travellers, were undisturbed by it? Is this more of the
'scale' of cosmopolitanism on which hobbits are at the bottom, Bree a
bit higher, and men/dwarves/elves higher, and Rangers the highest?

14. anything else you fancy.


Hasan Murtaza

Tar-Elenion

unread,
Mar 14, 2004, 9:50:26 PM3/14/04
to
In article
<qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
nos...@spam.com says...

>
> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
>
> You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/
> or sign up for coming chapters over there.
>
> Relevant questions are indicated in the synopsis in [] brackets.
>
> SYNOPSIS
> ---------
<snip>
> QUESTIONS
> ------------

>
> 7. Mugworts: What could Mug-wort mean? Is this a name Harry Potter took
> from Tolkien or what?

"Mugwort. A Bree name; the name of a plant (Artemisia, French armoise,
akin to Wormwood, French armoise amère). Translate by the name of the
plant in the language of translation (for example German Beifuss) If
suitable; or by the name of some other herb of more or less similar
shape. There is no special reason for the choice of Mugwort, except its
hobbit-like sound."
Guide to Names in LotR


>
> 8. What is a lankard? (Strider carries one.)
>

?
Quote please.

--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.

Hashemon Urtasman

unread,
Mar 14, 2004, 10:06:08 PM3/14/04
to

Tar-Elenion wrote:
>

>
>>8. What is a lankard? (Strider carries one.)
>>
>

> ?
> Quote please.
>

Sorry I spelled it wrong, tankard. "He had a tall tankard in front of
him...". It's in the dictionary, now. ;)


Hasan

Elwë Singollo

unread,
Mar 15, 2004, 4:34:19 AM3/15/04
to

"Hashemon Urtasman" <nos...@spam.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...

>
> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
>
> You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/
> or sign up for coming chapters over there.
>

> 2. What event are they referring to when they said 'the kings of men


> returned' from over the sea?

Could it be Elendil escaping Númenor and the foundation of the kingdom of
Arnor and Gondor?

> 9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this
> mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
> remember this, being a ranger.

I don't quite understand the "being a ranger" part of the sentence...
Strider probably learned what happened at Rivendell, where Bilbo told him
the story of his disappearance. But rangers do not have memory problems, so
it is not surprising that Aragorn remembers Bilbo's story. Besides, knowing
Bilbo's passion for telling stories, I wouldn't be surprised if each time
Aragorn came to Rivendell, bilbo gave him an account of his farewell party!

> 11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
> came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

I don't have the book at hand, but IIRC, he *felt* that someone (or
something!) suggested to put on the ring; nobody yelled put on your ring!
This need to put on the ring was probably an effect of the ring. At this
time, the Nazgul were very close, and the ring probably felt it and tried to
trick Frodo's mind.

>
> 12. Southerners mixed up with swarthy breelanders were the spies of the
> enemy. Ob discussion: the race issue.

The race issue has been discussed in these Forums many many times...
see this thread for example, which is one of many examples
http://groups.google.ch/groups?hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=atl81k07r
f%40enews4.newsguy.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dracist%2Bgroup:alt.fan.tolk
ien%26hl%3Dfr%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.fan.tolkien%26
selm%3Datl81k07rf%2540enews4.newsguy.com%26rnum%3D1

Elwë


Jon Meltzer

unread,
Mar 15, 2004, 7:16:17 AM3/15/04
to

"Hashemon Urtasman" <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...

> They reach the gate by dark. They are told by the gatekeeper that there
> are 'queer folk about' and the inn has some guests.

The Fab Five are redecorating the Pony, and giving Butterbur a makeover.

Henriette

unread,
Mar 15, 2004, 8:48:14 AM3/15/04
to
Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:
> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony

(excellent summary, Hesse!)


> While they are talking, Pippin begins to tell a story about Bilbo's
> birthday party. It sounds like Pippin may be giving away the part about
> the disappearance,

But here *I* would have added "and may bring the name of Baggins to
their minds", so (etc.)

> but they still treat him suspiciously and they all leave the room in a
> hurry [12] [13].

[12] [13],LOL
>
> QUESTIONS
> ------------


>
> 3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
> 'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.

I would speculate a lot darker than (in spite of his hair-dye)the
Aragorn from the movies, with raven black hair and grey eyes and
somewhat tinted skin (is that swarthy?), though not black skin.


>
> 9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this
> mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
> remember this, being a ranger.
>

I think he remembers it, having a good memory and intelligence, but on
this occasion is more worried the name of "Baggins" will come up.


>
> 10. 'Only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered. This seems
> to be a reference to the rhyme "Hey diddle diddle, the cat and a
> fiddle...the cow jumped over the moon" which looks like it is derived
> from Tolkien's made up poem.

Or vice versa.


>
> 11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
> came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

Actually this suggestion came before he started singing, and he
wonders about this suggestion/wish/command again after his vanishing.
But the question remains the same: who had this power over Frodo
and/or the Ring?


>
> 13. Most of the locals left after seeing the magic act, but the dwarves
> and strange men stayed a bit longer. Does this mean that Breelanders
> were more fearful of the wider world, but the foreign men and dwarves,
> obviously travellers, were undisturbed by it?

Yes, in any case less disturbed.

> 14. anything else you fancy.
>

I fancy, that someone enlightens me on the botanical names, of which I
only understand Thistlewool (that probably being the seeds of the
Thistle). I also know Heather, so Heathertoes is a playful variation
referring to the Hobbit's feet, or is it yet another plant? My
dictionary is not very helpful on this point.

Then I have a remark, which I think may have been shortly mentioned
before. It is, that Elves (and Hobbits)(and Dutch and Germans) refer
to the Sun as She. Unlike the French (le soleil), Italians (il sole)
and Spanish (el sol), who think the Sun is male. How is that in other
languages, and may it have to do with the place of women in the
respective societies, or is it accidental?

Henriette

Raven

unread,
Mar 15, 2004, 3:57:06 PM3/15/04
to
"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:be50318e.04031...@posting.google.com...

> Then I have a remark, which I think may have been shortly mentioned
> before. It is, that Elves (and Hobbits)(and Dutch and Germans) refer
> to the Sun as She. Unlike the French (le soleil), Italians (il sole)
> and Spanish (el sol), who think the Sun is male. How is that in other
> languages, and may it have to do with the place of women in the
> respective societies, or is it accidental?

Those Norwegian dialects which retain all three grammaticall genders also
have the Sun as feminine (ei sol, sola), and the Moon as masculine (ein
måne, månen). My guess is that this is common to the Germanic languages,
and that Old English had it the same way. Can anyone call me a sage or a
dolt here?
Gaelic also has the Sun as feminine (grian, an ghrian). What about the
Slavonic languages?
<and where is meneldil when we need him to explain about the various
indian languages, plus the multitudinous others that he is familiar with?>
Perhaps a feminine Sun is natural to people who live in cool climates,
who experience her as a bringer of warmth when she's there, pining for her
when she is wan in winter, while people who live in warm climates, who
experience him also as a scorcher of crops and therefore an occasionally
hostile, strong warrior, find it natural to have the Sun as masculine.
Perhaps it also has to do with the presumably more patriarchal society of
the Romans, from whose language the Romance languages descend which you
mention above. The ancestor-societies to the northern ones may not have
been matriarchal, but women seem to have been freer and held in higher
esteem - remember the recent mention of Irish queens as often being of
higher rank than their king husbands. A society where a man's daughters
were often given no names of their own but were known only as their father's
first, second, third etc. daughter might be uncomfortable about something as
strong and important as the Sun being a woman.

Hrafn.


AC

unread,
Mar 15, 2004, 4:55:53 PM3/15/04
to
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:30:46 GMT,
Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote:
>
> 1. What type of 'wild lands' were around Bree?

I get the notion of swamps and inhospitable, rocky lands, barren heath,
barrow wights, wolves, that sort of thing. Remember Aragorn talking about
an innkeeper at Bree living within a days march of things so fierce they'd
freeze his blood (I'm paraphrasing from memory here).

>
> 2. What event are they referring to when they said 'the kings of men
> returned' from over the sea?

Thinking about it now, I'm not sure. I always assumed it referred to
Elendil's coming after the Downfall, but I suppose it could equally refer to
the Numenoreans returning to Middle Earth.

>
> 3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
> 'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.

I think darker of complexion, darker hair, that sort of thing. This seems
to have been a trait of the Numenoreans. I believe this was also a trait of
the House of Beor, which may be where the Numenoreans got it from.

>
> 4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
> hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?

It seems that the Shire and Bree regard each other with some distrust. It
seems to me that the Bree-folk consider the folk of the Shire to be
provincial. An accusation which I consider quite well founded.

>
> 5. Barliman makes a joke about Ranges and Shire folk both being weird.
>
>
> "there's no accounting for east and west, meaning the Rangers and the
> Shirefolk, begging your pardon."
>
> Bree seems to be 'between' Shire hobbits and Rangers, geographically,
> culturally, physically, in skin colour, and hair colour. Breelanders
> are both sedentary, and have access to travellers and their news. So
> what is that all about?

> 9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this

> mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
> remember this, being a ranger.

Well, we find out later that Aragorn and Bilbo are pretty good friends.
Beyond that, it appears that Bilbo's reputation is known.

> 11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
> came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

That has puzzled me as well. I have no idea.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)

Treetop

unread,
Mar 15, 2004, 5:08:17 PM3/15/04
to
AC wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:30:46 GMT,
> Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote:
>>
>> 1. What type of 'wild lands' were around Bree?
>
> I get the notion of swamps and inhospitable, rocky lands, barren
> heath, barrow wights, wolves, that sort of thing. Remember Aragorn
> talking about an innkeeper at Bree living within a days march of
> things so fierce they'd freeze his blood (I'm paraphrasing from
> memory here).
>

I am more under the impression that that the wild-lands are relative.
Shire hobbits take great care of their gardens and landscape. I was
under the impression that these lands were just not developed.


Pete Gray

unread,
Mar 15, 2004, 5:08:24 PM3/15/04
to
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:50:26 -0800, Tar-Elenion
<tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>In article
><qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
>nos...@spam.com says...
>>
>>

>> 8. What is a lankard? (Strider carries one.)
>>
>?
>Quote please.

Perhaps a mis-reading of 'tankard'?

'He had a tall tankard in front of him'

--
Pete Gray

Please do not read this message. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning.

Pete Gray

unread,
Mar 15, 2004, 5:13:30 PM3/15/04
to
On 15 Mar 2004 05:48:14 -0800, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:

>Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:
>> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
>
>(excellent summary, Hesse!)
>> While they are talking, Pippin begins to tell a story about Bilbo's
>> birthday party. It sounds like Pippin may be giving away the part about
>> the disappearance,
>
>But here *I* would have added "and may bring the name of Baggins to
>their minds", so (etc.)
>
>> but they still treat him suspiciously and they all leave the room in a
>> hurry [12] [13].
>
>[12] [13],LOL
>>
>> QUESTIONS
>> ------------
>>
>> 3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
>> 'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.
>

Where are Rangers said to be darker than even Bree-landers?

>I would speculate a lot darker than (in spite of his hair-dye)the
>Aragorn from the movies, with raven black hair and grey eyes and
>somewhat tinted skin (is that swarthy?), though not black skin.
>>

Does Aragorn have dark skin?
'in a pale stern face, a pair of keen grey eyes'

Belba Grubb from Stock

unread,
Mar 15, 2004, 5:36:03 PM3/15/04
to
On 15 Mar 2004 05:48:14 -0800, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:

>Then I have a remark, which I think may have been shortly mentioned
>before. It is, that Elves (and Hobbits)(and Dutch and Germans) refer
>to the Sun as She. Unlike the French (le soleil), Italians (il sole)
>and Spanish (el sol), who think the Sun is male. How is that in other
>languages, and may it have to do with the place of women in the
>respective societies, or is it accidental?

I don't know how it is for the Dutch and Germans, but Elves and
Hobbits would do it because the female Maia Arien guided the vessel of
the Sun.

Barb

Belba Grubb from Stock

unread,
Mar 15, 2004, 6:13:26 PM3/15/04
to
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:30:46 GMT, Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com>
wrote:

>1. What type of 'wild lands' were around Bree?

All the wide, varied terrain of Eriador at least down to the Greyflood
and perhaps all the way to the Gap of Rohan (if one wishes to discount
the Dunlendings for being scattered and "wild"), except for the Shire
and the little strip of Bree land, the Elven lands around the Havens
and at Rivendell, and the Dwarves' halls and mines in the Ered Luin.
Nowhere else did any large group of people dwell, except for the
families of the remaining Dunedain, but where that might have been was
always a secret.

>4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
>hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?

I like that relationship between the two, with each group thinking the
other to be weird while both actually resembled each other quite a
bit. We're not really shown too much of the social mores of the
hobbits in Bree, but I would guess they are just as clannish and
sociable and prim and proper with each other as are their counterparts
in the Shire. Being around Men and, for a while anyway, at a major
crossroads, does seem to have kept the Bree hobbits more interested in
the outside world than the Shire hobbits were.

What's interesting is the reference to "probably many more Outsiders
scattered about in the West of the World in those days than the people
of the Shire imagined. Some, doubtless, were no better than tramps,
ready to dig a hole in any bank and stay only as long as it suited
them. But in the Bree-land, at any rate, the hobbits were ...."

So there were still wandering hobbits, either individually or in
groups, then?

>6. Nob: This name seems to be from another English novel. Is it a young
>boy from one of Dickens novels?

I don't know about Dickens, but judging from Nob Hill in San
Francisco, and a quick look-up on the Web, a nob is a "an elegantly
dressed man (often with affected manners)." A touch of humor from
JRRT, perhaps, in giving the name to a servant.

>7. Mugworts: What could Mug-wort mean? Is this a name Harry Potter took
>from Tolkien or what?

It's a plant -- we had them around up north on dry sandy areas where a
lot of other vegetation couldn't take hold; I haven't looked around
down south here for them. There might be too much competition for
them to thrive down here. They have kind of thick, succulent foliage
covered with a light fuzz, and have big long flower spikes late in the
summer. I think that mugworts were used medicinally many, many years
ago, perhaps as poultices.

>9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this
>mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
>remember this, being a ranger.

Yes, he knew, because of the Ring and also because of Frodo's assumed
identity. Gandalf was concerned enough about Bilbo's planned
disappearance to add a touch of his own to the party -- a sudden flash
when Bilbo disappeared. Gandalf would have told Aragorn about that,
and Aragorn would have shared the wizard's concern about news of a
magic event spreading, and also of people thinking of the
disappearance and putting two and two together, and connecting the new
hobbits at the Inn with the name of Baggins.

>10. 'Only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered. This seems
>to be a reference to the rhyme "Hey diddle diddle, the cat and a
>fiddle...the cow jumped over the moon" which looks like it is derived
>from Tolkien's made up poem.

It's lovely, isn't it. One of my favorite poems in the book!

>Here it seems that Tolkien 'invented' a geneology for the real life
>nursery rhyme. This is the sort of thing Tolkien seems to have done
>with LOTR as a whole, first inventing the story and then inventing the
>mythology it derives from.

Didn't he already have most of the mythology invented or at least
firmly outlined already when he wrote "The Lord of the Rings"?

>11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
>came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

Well, Bill Ferny certainly knew something about it, as he fixed the
hobbits with a "knowing and half-mocking" expression. He couldn't
have made the suggestion, though -- not powerful enough, though he
certainly passed along the information. I wonder if that half-orc
southerner with him (Saruman's man, no?) might have been able to do
it? Perhaps not, and it came from the Nazgul who were already in
Bree, even though they didn't actually approach the Inn themselves.

>12. Southerners mixed up with swarthy breelanders were the spies of the
>enemy. Ob discussion: the race issue.

Alluded to above -- many of the southerners are just men traveling,
but there are spies, and I think in the appendices somewhere it's said
that the one this night in Bree was indeed a half-orc?

>13. Most of the locals left after seeing the magic act, but the dwarves
>and strange men stayed a bit longer. Does this mean that Breelanders
>were more fearful of the wider world, but the foreign men and dwarves,
>obviously travellers, were undisturbed by it? Is this more of the
>'scale' of cosmopolitanism on which hobbits are at the bottom, Bree a
>bit higher, and men/dwarves/elves higher, and Rangers the highest?

Oh, I don't think so -- the Dwarves and Men, except Strider, who
remained soon got up and said good night to Butterbur but not to our
heroes. And from the way Butterbur reacted to Strider, the Rangers
weren't anywhere near the top of the social scale in Bree.

Imagine if you were at a hotel somewhere, relaxing in the bar and
suddenly saw something weird like that from one of your fellow guests!

>14. anything else you fancy.

Who were the rest of the Men from the south who had come up the
Greenway, "on the move, looking for lands where they could find some
peace"? Did they head for the Shire after they left Bree, hearing
Lotho was looking for some muscle?

Also, I love the detailed mention of the food the hobbits had for
dinner here. It's one of the few complete menus given in the story.

Barb

TT Arvind

unread,
Mar 15, 2004, 6:55:37 PM3/15/04
to
Wes ðu Raven hal!

> <and where is meneldil when we need him to explain about the various
> indian languages, plus the multitudinous others that he is familiar with?>

Hmm. In Sanskrit, genders are associated with words rather than objects
so although the deities of both sun and moon are male, some of the words
used for the moon are female. situation is a little more complicated in
relation to the sun, since the dawn and dusk are female. The noon is
sometimes female too, but usually male. In modern northern Indian
languages, all common words for the sun are masculine, while there
usually are both masculine and feminine words for the moon.

In the southern languages, the sun and moon are neuter. They can be
personified, in which case they will be given whichever gender is
appropriate. The languages don't have grammatical gender, so this is
quite easy.

Thai has virtually no gender, and I don't remember enough of the
literature to remember if the moon was normally male or female. Some
very common female names mean 'moon', but that isn't determinative.

I like your theory of the northern sun being female because she was more
'gentle' as opposed to the fierce southern sun. Although, after having
read the sagas I don't see how the Germanics could possibly have regarded
their women as being 'gentle' in any way.

--
Meneldil

FEATURE n. a surprising property of a computer program. A bug can be
changed to a feature by documenting it.

loisillon

unread,
Mar 15, 2004, 7:00:06 PM3/15/04
to
Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:<qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...

tchak


>
>
> 11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
> came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

Not only in the room. The suggestion could be from anybody outside.
One of the Black Riders, likely. We know that they ride along the
streets of Bree to seek "Baggins".

Hashemon Urtasman

unread,
Mar 15, 2004, 7:46:44 PM3/15/04
to

Pete Gray wrote:

>>
>>>but they still treat him suspiciously and they all leave the room in a
>>>hurry [12] [13].
>>
>>[12] [13],LOL
>>
>>>QUESTIONS
>>>------------
>>>
>>>3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
>>>'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.
>>
>
> Where are Rangers said to be darker than even Bree-landers?
>

para 3, "In those days no other Men gad settled dwellings so far west,
or within a hundred leagues of the Shire. But in the wild lands beyond
Bree there were mysterious wanderers. The Bree-folk called them
Rangers, .... They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree ...."

>
>>I would speculate a lot darker than (in spite of his hair-dye)the
>>Aragorn from the movies, with raven black hair and grey eyes and
>>somewhat tinted skin (is that swarthy?), though not black skin.
>>
>
> Does Aragorn have dark skin?
> 'in a pale stern face, a pair of keen grey eyes'
>
>

Well he has 'wolf like' eyes, so maybe that is as close to 'keen grey'
as they could get.

Hasan

Shanahan

unread,
Mar 15, 2004, 9:18:05 PM3/15/04
to
On 15 Mar 2004 05:48:14 -0800, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:

>Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:
>> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
>

>> 3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
>> 'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.
>
>I would speculate a lot darker than (in spite of his hair-dye)the
>Aragorn from the movies, with raven black hair and grey eyes and
>somewhat tinted skin (is that swarthy?), though not black skin.

I think Strider to be dark-haired, but not dark-skinned. The Numenorean
race is said to be fair-skinned, grey-eyed, and dark-haired. And don't
forget, his hair is shaggy and flecked with grey!

In older forms of English, and in a lot of languages I think, an adjective
applied to a person meaning "dark" or "bright" or "fair" usually meant
hair color, not skin color.


- Ciaran S.
_________________________________
"I'm too old for this. I should be at home,
playing canasta with Radagast."
-mst3k


Emma Pease

unread,
Mar 15, 2004, 9:17:06 PM3/15/04
to
In article <evbc5093jo218nku1...@4ax.com>, Belba Grubb

from Stock wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:30:46 GMT, Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com>

>>13. Most of the locals left after seeing the magic act, but the dwarves

>>and strange men stayed a bit longer. Does this mean that Breelanders
>>were more fearful of the wider world, but the foreign men and dwarves,
>>obviously travellers, were undisturbed by it? Is this more of the
>>'scale' of cosmopolitanism on which hobbits are at the bottom, Bree a
>>bit higher, and men/dwarves/elves higher, and Rangers the highest?
>
> Oh, I don't think so -- the Dwarves and Men, except Strider, who
> remained soon got up and said good night to Butterbur but not to our
> heroes. And from the way Butterbur reacted to Strider, the Rangers
> weren't anywhere near the top of the social scale in Bree.
>
> Imagine if you were at a hotel somewhere, relaxing in the bar and
> suddenly saw something weird like that from one of your fellow guests!

I think it more likely that the local men/hobbits had somewhere to go
to discuss things, their homes, while for the dwarves and foreign men
their only real option was to go to bed.

My question: Are the Bree men and the Dunlendings the same race?

Emma

--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht

Kristian Damm Jensen

unread,
Mar 16, 2004, 7:22:21 AM3/16/04
to
Belba Grubb from Stock wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:30:46 GMT, Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com>
> wrote:
>
<snip>

>> 6. Nob: This name seems to be from another English novel. Is it a
>> young boy from one of Dickens novels?
>
> I don't know about Dickens, but judging from Nob Hill in San
> Francisco, and a quick look-up on the Web, a nob is a "an elegantly
> dressed man (often with affected manners)." A touch of humor from
> JRRT, perhaps, in giving the name to a servant.

From http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

1nob
Etymology: probably alteration of knob
1 : HEAD 1
2 : a jack of the same suit as the starter in cribbage that scores one
point for the holder -- usually used in the phrases his nob or his nobs

2nob
Etymology: perhaps from 1nob
chiefly British : one in a superior position in life

<snip>

>> Here it seems that Tolkien 'invented' a geneology for the real life
>> nursery rhyme. This is the sort of thing Tolkien seems to have done
>> with LOTR as a whole, first inventing the story and then inventing
>> the mythology it derives from.
>
> Didn't he already have most of the mythology invented or at least
> firmly outlined already when he wrote "The Lord of the Rings"?

Not quite. The history of the second and third age was not invented as yet.

What's more, he invented detail of the mythology as he went along and
"needed" them.

<snip>

--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. --
John Lennon

zett

unread,
Mar 16, 2004, 11:00:10 AM3/16/04
to
Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:<qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
[excellent summary regretfully snipped][other questions snipped]

> Frodo sees Strider [8] sitting alone, who invites Frodo to sit with him.

Aw, you should have given the first appearance of Strider more
build-up than that! ;) I *love* the intro to Strider so much, I think
I will bore everyone by repeating it here:

Suddenly Frodo noticed that a strange-looking weather-beaten man,
sitting in the shadows near the wall, was also listening intently to
the hobbit-talk. He had a tall tankard* in front of him, and was
smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved** His legs were stretched
out before him, showing high boots of supple leather that fitted hm
well, but had seen much wear and were now caked with mud. A
travel-stained cloak of heavy dark-green cloth was drawn close about
him, and in spite of the heat of the room he wore a hood that
overshadowed his face; but the gleam of his eyes could be seen as he
watched the hobbits.***

*A tankard is a thing to drink out of, by the way-the fact that he had
a _tall_tankard suggests to me that he could put away quite a bit of
beer. :grin:

**Curiously carved _how_ I wonder...Was it one of those Sherlock
Holmes- looking curved stemmed pipes? Did it have some kind of
Numenorian letters or runes carved on it- or what?

***What sartorial clues to the inner man lie within this description?
You can tell a lot about a person by their garb, and especially their
footwear, you know. :) For me there is an interesting dichotomy
between the fact that the guy could afford high class well-made
footwear yet he subsequently had to wear it down and get it dirty. Is
that a hint that he is more/better than he appears? And is the whole
booted/cloaked/hooded thing supposed to make the reader think he is
possibly in league with the Black Riders? It certainly makes him
mysterious enough...And the gleaming eyes...makes us have a shiver
down our back, yess preciousss...


> 3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
> 'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.

I don't think dark, in this case, refers to skin color at all. It
says later that Aragorn had a _pale_stern face. I think dark here
refers to a combo of hair/eye color and _demeanor_ as in sombre, even
brooding maybe. Also, I seem to recall the Welsh as being referred to
as 'dark' when compared others-but that was a way to set them aside as
strangers, the unknown- and every one of them I have ever seen is
white. I think folks who get hung up on Tolkien and race (I am not
saying *you* in particular, Hasan) forget that the guy used language
poetically and for effect as well as literally.



> 4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
> hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?
>
> 5. Barliman makes a joke about Ranges and Shire folk both being weird.

I think Tolkien keeps bringing up stuff like this to say that most
folks are xenophobic to some degree, and that most folks don't know as
much as they like to let on.

> 10. 'Only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered. This seems
> to be a reference to the rhyme "Hey diddle diddle, the cat and a
> fiddle...the cow jumped over the moon" which looks like it is derived
> from Tolkien's made up poem.
>
> Here it seems that Tolkien 'invented' a geneology for the real life
> nursery rhyme. This is the sort of thing Tolkien seems to have done
> with LOTR as a whole, first inventing the story and then inventing the
> mythology it derives from.

I vaguely recall that there has been this whole, well, argument is too
strong a word maybe, but discussion amongst folklorists or whatever
kind of academics who go around giving a crap where nursery rhymes
come from, over the origin of Hey Diddle Diddle...here Tolkien is
poking at that whole thing by saying in effect "you're _all_ wrong, my
hobbits invented it! End of discussion" It is another one of T's
academic jokes. I love it when he does stuff like that. :)

Hashemon Urtasman

unread,
Mar 16, 2004, 12:52:27 PM3/16/04
to

zett wrote:
> Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:<qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
> [excellent summary regretfully snipped][other questions snipped]
>
>>Frodo sees Strider [8] sitting alone, who invites Frodo to sit with him.
>
>
> Aw, you should have given the first appearance of Strider more
> build-up than that! ;) I *love* the intro to Strider so much, I think
> I will bore everyone by repeating it here:
>

Good going!

> Suddenly Frodo noticed that a strange-looking weather-beaten man,
> sitting in the shadows near the wall, was also listening intently to
> the hobbit-talk. He had a tall tankard* in front of him, and was
> smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved** His legs were stretched

Notice more juxtaposition here, ... "tall tankard, long pipe, legs
stretched out, high boots" All gives the impression of a tall, thin man
(like John Kerry a bit.)


> ***What sartorial clues to the inner man lie within this description?
> You can tell a lot about a person by their garb, and especially their
> footwear, you know. :) For me there is an interesting dichotomy
> between the fact that the guy could afford high class well-made
> footwear yet he subsequently had to wear it down and get it dirty. Is
> that a hint that he is more/better than he appears? And is the whole
> booted/cloaked/hooded thing supposed to make the reader think he is
> possibly in league with the Black Riders? It certainly makes him
> mysterious enough...And the gleaming eyes...makes us have a shiver
> down our back, yess preciousss...
>

Nice point, it's impossible to know at this point whether Strider is
good or evil. Most signs point to him being evil, but a few don't.

>

>>4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
>>hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?
>>
>>5. Barliman makes a joke about Ranges and Shire folk both being weird.
>
>
> I think Tolkien keeps bringing up stuff like this to say that most
> folks are xenophobic to some degree, and that most folks don't know as
> much as they like to let on.
>
>

Barliman also (in his joke) calls Shire folks "Outsiders" in a slip of
the tongue, which is the very name that Shirefolk use for other hobbits.
Shows that everyone thought everyone else was weird.

>>10. 'Only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered. This seems
>>to be a reference to the rhyme "Hey diddle diddle, the cat and a
>>fiddle...the cow jumped over the moon" which looks like it is derived
>>from Tolkien's made up poem.
>>
>>Here it seems that Tolkien 'invented' a geneology for the real life
>>nursery rhyme. This is the sort of thing Tolkien seems to have done
>>with LOTR as a whole, first inventing the story and then inventing the
>>mythology it derives from.
>
>
> I vaguely recall that there has been this whole, well, argument is too
> strong a word maybe, but discussion amongst folklorists or whatever
> kind of academics who go around giving a crap where nursery rhymes
> come from, over the origin of Hey Diddle Diddle...here Tolkien is
> poking at that whole thing by saying in effect "you're _all_ wrong, my
> hobbits invented it! End of discussion" It is another one of T's
> academic jokes. I love it when he does stuff like that. :)

It's also something anyone who reads literature where snippets of older
works are quoted in newer ones (Plato quoting Homer, Gospels quoting the
Old Testament), so it's nice to be able to manufacture one 'ancestor
work' right in the middle of your own story.

Hasan

Hashemon Urtasman

unread,
Mar 16, 2004, 12:53:26 PM3/16/04
to

Hashemon Urtasman wrote:

>
> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
>
> You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/
> or sign up for coming chapters over there.
>
> Relevant questions are indicated in the synopsis in [] brackets.
>
> SYNOPSIS
> ---------
> The company travels the four miles to the village of Bree, a journey
> which should take about 1 to two hours walking. The region of Bree-land
> is in by small area which is inhabited, with wild lands [1] all around
> that.
>
> (Background on Bree)
>
>
> The Men of Bree were brown, broad, and short, and had lived there for a

My mistake. "The Men of Bree were *brown-haired*, ... "

Sorry for the confusion.

Hasan

Raven

unread,
Mar 16, 2004, 2:17:56 PM3/16/04
to
"TT Arvind" <ttar...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:MPG.1ac052af9...@news.individual.net...

> Hmm. In Sanskrit, genders are associated with words rather than objects

This seems to be the case in the European IE languages as well. Take the
German word "Weib". It means "woman", and is of neuter grammatical gender.
Same with "Mädchen", ("girl", "young woman") which I have read is neuter
because the diminutive suffix "-chen" will produce a neuter word. And in
Norwegian you do not find words related in meaning necessarily having the
same gender. "Mountain" is of neuter gender, (true of both "fjell" and
"berg"), while "stone" is masculine.
It's what you get with an ancestor language where nouns were initially
not grouped according to any sort of biological gender, but only developed
into genders in that a majority of feminine words somehow landed in one of
the two original groups which then split into the modern neuter and feminine
genders. :-)

> I like your theory of the northern sun being female because she was more
> 'gentle' as opposed to the fierce southern sun. Although, after having
> read the sagas I don't see how the Germanics could possibly have regarded
> their women as being 'gentle' in any way.

Oh come on. The old Norse women rarely fought with their own hands, they
mostly shamed and otherwise put the men up to it. They slew by proxy, and
by some definitions of culpability this indicates that they were more gentle
than the menfolk. :-)

Hrafn.


John Jones

unread,
Mar 16, 2004, 3:50:24 PM3/16/04
to
"Shanahan" <pog...@redsuspenders.com> wrote in message
news:dnmc50l5itf8t2nlq...@4ax.com...

>
> In older forms of English, and in a lot of languages I think, an adjective
> applied to a person meaning "dark" or "bright" or "fair" usually meant
> hair color, not skin color.
>
This is true - the wanted notices for King Charles II (after the battle of
Worcester) describe him as 'a black man'. He resembled his Portuguese
mother.
Then there is the folk song, 'The one was brighter than is the sun/Black as
coal the other one'. Guess who was the villainess, racism conspiracy
theorists?

TT Arvind

unread,
Mar 16, 2004, 4:54:49 PM3/16/04
to

(r.a.b.t. removed due to increasing off-topicness)
Wes ğu Raven hal!

> This seems to be the case in the European IE languages as well.

Which makes me curious - do any non-IE languages have grammatical gender
in the way IE does? The families I am somewhat familiar with -
Dravidian, Thai, Malay - lack the concept almost totally.

--
"Daddy, what does formatting drive 'C' mean?"

the softrat

unread,
Mar 16, 2004, 10:15:32 PM3/16/04
to
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:54:49 -0000, TT Arvind <ttar...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>Which makes me curious - do any non-IE languages have grammatical gender
>in the way IE does? The families I am somewhat familiar with -
>Dravidian, Thai, Malay - lack the concept almost totally.

Hebrew, a Afro-asiatic language, does.


the softrat
"LotR: Eleven Oscars! Right up there with _Titanic_!"
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"Never eat anything at one sitting that you can't lift." -- Miss
Piggy

Henriette

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 4:24:42 AM3/17/04
to
TT Arvind <ttar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.1ac052af9...@news.individual.net>...
> Wes ğu Raven hal!

>
> > <and where is meneldil when we need him to explain about the various
> > indian languages, plus the multitudinous others that he is familiar with?>
>
> Hmm. In Sanskrit, genders are associated with words rather than objects
> so although the deities of both sun and moon are male, some of the words
> used for the moon are female. situation is a little more complicated in
> relation to the sun, since the dawn and dusk are female. The noon is
> sometimes female too, but usually male. In modern northern Indian
> languages, all common words for the sun are masculine, while there
> usually are both masculine and feminine words for the moon.
>
Interesting, although it seems *very* complicated!

> I like your theory of the northern sun being female because she was more
> 'gentle' as opposed to the fierce southern sun.

Yes, seconded. Genuine creative thinking, if you made that up by yourself!
(snip)
Iniyaruti

Henriette

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 4:37:12 AM3/17/04
to
"Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message news:<DPJ5c.8739$sU7....@news.get2net.dk>...

> "TT Arvind" <ttar...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:MPG.1ac052af9...@news.individual.net...
>
> > Hmm. In Sanskrit, genders are associated with words rather than objects
>
> This seems to be the case in the European IE languages as well.

IE?

> Take the
> German word "Weib". It means "woman", and is of neuter grammatical gender.

With this example I understand Meneldil's remark better (that in
Sanskrit, genders are associated with words rather than objects). Yes,
I always thought it strange: die (feminine)Frau but das (neuter) Weib.

> > read the sagas I don't see how the Germanics could possibly have regarded
> > their women as being 'gentle' in any way.
>
> Oh come on. The old Norse women rarely fought with their own hands, they
> mostly shamed and otherwise put the men up to it. They slew by proxy, and
> by some definitions of culpability this indicates that they were more gentle
> than the menfolk. :-)
>

Sometimes there seems to be a world hidden behind certain sentences:-)

Ent Hierre

Henriette

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 4:42:21 AM3/17/04
to
Pete Gray <ne...@redbadge.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:<6cac50dgffknppk6s...@4ax.com>...

>
> Does Aragorn have dark skin?
> 'in a pale stern face, a pair of keen grey eyes'

He must have been ill that day. One should think a Ranger should be
tanned, or at least have a healthy complexion, being outside most of
the time. Unless he had a hat/hood even bigger than Gandalf's.

Henriette

Henriette

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 4:49:54 AM3/17/04
to
"John Jones" <jo...@jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:<c37pua$o16$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...

LOL. Wild guess: If the song originates from a country where the sun
can be merciless, the one "brighter than is the sun". If it originates
from England, it is strange that the one black as coal would be the
villainess. After all, indipendent from any racial theories, we have
archetypes.

Henriette

Kristian Damm Jensen

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 4:54:12 AM3/17/04
to
Henriette wrote:
> "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in
> message news:<DPJ5c.8739$sU7....@news.get2net.dk>...
>> "TT Arvind" <ttar...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>> news:MPG.1ac052af9...@news.individual.net...
>>
>>> Hmm. In Sanskrit, genders are associated with words rather than
>>> objects
>>
>> This seems to be the case in the European IE languages as well.
>
> IE?

Indo-European. Ravnen is merely making sure noone thinks he is talking
about Basque, Hungarian og Finnish.


--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk

If you can't be bothered making your message readable, why should I be
bothered reading it?

Henriette

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 4:58:27 AM3/17/04
to
Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:<v9H5c.19612$TxJ....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...

> Notice more juxtaposition here, ... "tall tankard, long pipe, legs
> stretched out, high boots" All gives the impression of a tall, thin man
> (like John Kerry a bit.)
>

LOL. Imagine giving up your immortality for John Kerry!

Henriette

TT Arvind

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 6:24:56 AM3/17/04
to
Wes ğu the softrat hal!

> Hebrew, a Afro-asiatic language, does.

Good point. So does Arabic, and I suppose so do other members of the
family.

--
In a single day, Samson slew a thousand Philistines with the jawbone of
an ass. Every day, thousands of sales are killed with the same weapon.

Tamim

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 8:27:59 AM3/17/04
to
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote:


> Sorry I spelled it wrong, tankard. "He had a tall tankard in front of
> him...". It's in the dictionary, now. ;)

http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/00246816?single=1&query_type=word&queryword=tankard&edition=2e&first=1&max_to_show=10

1. A large open tub-like vessel, usually of wood hooped with iron, etc.
(sometimes of leather); spec. such a vessel used for carrying water,
etc.; often used to render L. amphora. Obs.


2. a. A drinking-vessel, formerly made of wooden staves and hooped; now
esp. a tall one-handled jug or mug, usually of pewter, sometimes with a
lid: used chiefly for drinking beer.

Hashemon Urtasman

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 9:13:52 AM3/17/04
to

Or maybe he was staying indoors, and hadn't been out in the sun for some
time. That would have made him look pale. The rangers may have been
darker than Bree folk, the way kids who play outside all day become
darker. The "darker" Ranger colour wouldn't be a permanent
melanin-based skin colour, but one due to the effects of light.

Hasan

> Henriette


Jette Goldie

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 2:19:20 PM3/17/04
to

"Tamim" <hall...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c39jov$kvq$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...

I actually have a leather tankard sitting on the shelf here -
worked leather, lined with a black tar substance to render
it as waterproof as possible. One leather tankard, and
one leather "drinking horn" - this one is shaped like the
traditional cow's horn, again made of leather and lined
with tar. The tankard has an advantage in that one can
put it down with your drink still in it and not spill any - the
horn you have to keep holding until you are finished
drinking (though it does have a semi-detatchable handle
which allows you to carry it on your belt)


--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/


Jette Goldie

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 2:19:19 PM3/17/04
to

"Hashemon Urtasman" <nos...@spam.com> wrote
> 1. What type of 'wild lands' were around Bree?

I've always seen them as similar to the fells and hills
in the lake district. Empty, un-cultivated - wild.


> 3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
> 'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.

Dark of hair - truly *black* hair is quite uncommon in
Britain - various shades of brown are the norm. If the
Rangers were actually *black* haired, they'd be "darker"
than the Bree-landers. Add to this the fact that they
seem to spend a lot of time out of doors, they'd be
weather-beaten. Though they might be naturally pale
of skin, their faces would be weathered - not just from
sun, but from wind, rain, etc....... it's a different look
from a "sun tan".


>
> 4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
> hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?
>

Like two villages 5 miles apart, they're really the *same*
but think each other different, concentrating on minor
differences in customs instead of similarities. I grew up
in a town in the east of Scotland. An old market town,
the main *industry* had been farming (in the past). Ten
miles (less in fact) was another town, where *in the past*
the main industry had been coal mining...... now both
towns actually had similar forms of employment (both
acted as dormitary towns for the big city) - but Oh! we
were SO different. Those Tranenters *spoke weird*
compared with us Haddingtoners. They actually
pronounced Haddington as "Haddington", not "Hedd'ntoun"
as every one *knew* it should be said. They said
"Athelstaneford", not "Elfstanefurd".

> 5. Barliman makes a joke about Ranges and Shire folk both being weird.
>

Quite. They're not *Bree-folk* so they must be weird.

>
> 6. Nob: This name seems to be from another English novel. Is it a young
> boy from one of Dickens novels?

Just as well it wasn't "Hob" - since Hob is an old English
word for the devil <g>

BaldiePete

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 3:28:21 PM3/17/04
to

"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote in message
news:Xw16c.19127$LY7.43...@news-text.cableinet.net...


I heard (from a North Berwickian) that "Athelstaneford" is pronounced
"Elshunfurd".

BaldiePete
--
Never Knowingly On-Topic
Is that a donut or a meringue ?
You're right, it's a donut.


Jette Goldie

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 3:36:00 PM3/17/04
to

"BaldiePete" <baldiepete...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c3acd5$254rba$1...@ID-115617.news.uni-berlin.de...


Pshaw! What do *they* know? They're all weird in
North Berwick, ye ken!

Pete Gray

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 4:37:13 PM3/17/04
to

Or one of the lesser-known uses of athelas -- sun block.

--
Pete Gray
while ($cat!="home"){$mice=="play";}

Pete Gray

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 4:43:06 PM3/17/04
to
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:19:19 GMT, "Jette Goldie"
<j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:

>
>Like two villages 5 miles apart, they're really the *same*
>but think each other different, concentrating on minor
>differences in customs instead of similarities. I grew up
>in a town in the east of Scotland. An old market town,
>the main *industry* had been farming (in the past). Ten
>miles (less in fact) was another town, where *in the past*
>the main industry had been coal mining...... now both
>towns actually had similar forms of employment (both
>acted as dormitary towns for the big city) - but Oh! we
>were SO different. Those Tranenters *spoke weird*
>compared with us Haddingtoners. They actually

They call themselves 'Belters' -- but they don't know why. What can
you expect? And they don't speak quite as weirdly as Panners.

Pete Gray

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 4:45:30 PM3/17/04
to
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:36:00 GMT, "Jette Goldie"
<j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:

>
>Pshaw! What do *they* know? They're all weird in
>North Berwick, ye ken!

Isn't the entire population of North Berwick made up of people who've
retired from Edinburgh to play golf in their declining years? they
probably call Gullane 'Gillan' as well.

Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 5:43:26 PM3/17/04
to
> On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:19:19 GMT, "Jette Goldie"
> <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>>Those Tranenters *spoke weird*
>>compared with us Haddingtoners.

In rec.arts.books.tolkien Pete Gray <ne...@redbadge.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> They call themselves 'Belters' -- but they don't know why. What can
> you expect? And they don't speak quite as weirdly as Panners.

Aren't all of those places (Tranent, Haddington, North
Berwick, Prestonpans) in East Lothian?!? So this is not even
an East Lothian vs. Midlothian thing? Blimey.

--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)

Bruce H

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 5:41:57 PM3/17/04
to
In article <4bb40450.04031...@posting.google.com>,
yze...@yahoo.com (zett) wrote:


> >
> > Here it seems that Tolkien 'invented' a geneology for the real life
> > nursery rhyme. This is the sort of thing Tolkien seems to have done
> > with LOTR as a whole, first inventing the story and then inventing the
> > mythology it derives from.
>
> I vaguely recall that there has been this whole, well, argument is too
> strong a word maybe, but discussion amongst folklorists or whatever
> kind of academics who go around giving a crap where nursery rhymes
> come from, over the origin of Hey Diddle Diddle...here Tolkien is
> poking at that whole thing by saying in effect "you're _all_ wrong, my
> hobbits invented it! End of discussion" It is another one of T's
> academic jokes. I love it when he does stuff like that. :)

The book "J.R.R. Tolkien, Author of the Century" has a really good
discussion of this. Tolkien was an expert in language, and one thing that
interested him was the origins of "lost" words. There are words and names
and place-names whose origin is now unknown, and Tolkien worked out
possible linguistic histories for them. Some of his possible linguistic
histories formed the basis for parts of his fiction, and in this instance
he's working out a possible history of the "Hey Diddle Diddle" poem, of
which the current version is simply a fragmented echo.
I'm totally oversimplifying Shippey's discussion. Best to check out his
book for more.

Bruce

Brenda Selwyn

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 7:15:50 PM3/17/04
to
>"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:

>
>"Hashemon Urtasman" <nos...@spam.com> wrote


>> 6. Nob: This name seems to be from another English novel. Is it a young
>> boy from one of Dickens novels?
>
>Just as well it wasn't "Hob" - since Hob is an old English
>word for the devil <g>

Although there is a Hob on Sam's family tree.

Both are pet forms of Robert, common in the Middle Ages but I think
even by Dickens' time more or less fallen into disuse. Nobby is still
occasionally heard as a nickname, but Nob doesn't seem to be used in
this way, probably for the obvious reason:-)

Brenda

--
*************************************************************************
Brenda Selwyn
"In England's green and pleasant land"

"If we were 'grown up' and 'had a clue' we wouldn't be wasting our time
posting here." - The Softrat