How many wizards?
John Holbrook
counted four : Gandalf the Grey, Saruman the White, Radagast the Brown,
and Sauron the Black? Are there any other colors?
Phelps Gates
Besides Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast, there were two "Blue Wizards"
(their names are not reliably known, and they do not participate in
LorR). Sauron is not a "Wizard", in the sense that this word is used
in the Tolkien mythology.
Tony Walton - Sun UK Customer Support Engineer
>
> Sauron isn't a "wizard" as such, he's a Maia.
Perhaps I'm hallucinating, but I seem to remember from somewhere in
the Silmarillion that Gandalf, at least, was also a Maia. I agree that
Sauron wasn't a wizard, but "wizard" and "Maia" aren't mutually
exclusive (if I'm right about what I thought I read :-) )
> There were five
> wizards: Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey/White, Radagast the
> Brown, Alatar the Blue, and Pallando the Blue. See Unfinished Tales
> for more.
There were at least two more who "went into the East and their stories
are not told here", I think.
I really must get around to re-reading it all.
TonyW
Truls Parsson
>Perhaps I'm hallucinating, but I seem to remember from somewhere in
>the Silmarillion that Gandalf, at least, was also a Maia. I agree that
>Sauron wasn't a wizard, but "wizard" and "Maia" aren't mutually
>exclusive (if I'm right about what I thought I read :-) )
All wizards (Istari) are Maias. The Istari were a group of five Maia sent
to middle earth by the Valar. They were called wizards by the men.
-The Troll
---
Everyone is allowed to have a point of view as long as it is the same as mine.
Graeme Cree
Larry Lawson
Parsson) writes:
>
>Tony Walton wrote:
>
>>Perhaps I'm hallucinating, but I seem to remember from somewhere in
>>the Silmarillion that Gandalf, at least, was also a Maia. I agree that
>>Sauron wasn't a wizard, but "wizard" and "Maia" aren't mutually
>>exclusive (if I'm right about what I thought I read :-) )
>
>All wizards (Istari) are Maias. The Istari were a group of five Maia
sent
>to middle earth by the Valar. They were called wizards by the men.
>
>-The Troll
This is true, all wizards were maia.
Louis Epstein
: In article <3dt0p5$4...@nermal.cs.uoguelph.ca>,
UNFINISHED TALES p. 393 pretty clearly calls the Blue Wizards Alatar and
Pallando.The implication is that they went to the East and failed in their
mission.
Mark Rabuck (GD 1996)
: Sauron isn't a "wizard" as such, he's a Maia. There were five
: wizards: Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey/White, Radagast the
: Brown, Alatar the Blue, and Pallando the Blue. See Unfinished Tales
: for more.
Another point that the UT brings up that I found interesting: the five
named Wizards were only the ones sent to Northwestern Middle-earth.
There may have been others who went to other regions, but their names are
not recorded in the Red Book or other sources. Perfect ICE fodder, but I
don't think even Prof. T was too sure about the existence of these other
Istari.
--
Mark W. Rabuck | Et quid erat, quod me delectabat,
116 Bishop St. Apt. B | nisi amare et amari?
New Haven, CT 06511 | --Augustine, _Confessionum_, II.2
Louis Epstein
Alatar and Pallando are those two.
Mark Lowes
From Tolkien - The Illustrated Encylopieda
[Istari]
Five were said to have come to Middle Earth
Gandalf the Grey
Radagast the Brown
Saruman the White
The Blue Wizards were known as Alatar and
Pallando in the undying lands
--
Mark Lowes <ma...@flyhmstr.demon.co.uk>
This sig file is being investigated by the Reality Police
Sorry for any Inconvienence
Mark Lowes
but their powers were limited to those availible to other races on
Middle-Earth, preventing them from using the full might of the maia
Mark Lowes
tony....@UK.Sun.COM
"Tony Walton - Sun UK Customer Support Engineer" writes:
> > There were five
> > wizards: Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey/White, Radagast the
> > Brown, Alatar the Blue, and Pallando the Blue. See Unfinished Tales
> > for more.
>
> There were at least two more who "went into the East and their stories
> are not told here", I think.
I think the two who went east were Alatar and Pallando
J. David Ribak
: but their powers were limited to those availible to other races on
: Middle-Earth, preventing them from using the full might of the maia
: --
: Mark Lowes <ma...@flyhmstr.demon.co.uk>
According to Robert Foster's "complete guide to middle-earth", the istari
werent limited to powers available to middle-earth, they were merely
forbidden to match pure power with sauron. Their job was to advise the
children of illuvatar in their resistance.
_____________________________________________________________________
|=====================================================================|
`~|___|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|___|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|___|~'
||| ||| |||
||| J. David Ribak ||| Cool quote goes here! |||
||| ri...@acs.bu.edu ||| Now taking suggestions! |||
||| ||| |||
|~~~~~|_______________________|~~~~~|_________________________|~~~~~|
|=====================================================================|
|_____________________________________________________________________|
Cameron Newham
>Also remember that Gandalf himself, who snuck into Dol Guldur at one point,
>pretty much says that had he been caught he would've been destroyed. He
>also intimates, as does Galadriel, that either could only have matched
>Sauron if they had wielded the One Ring against him.
Gandalf entered Dol Guldur twice - both times in disguise (one wonders
how he managed to fool Sauron). I can't recall him saying he would
have been destroyed if caught - he only says it was very dangerous.
>As further evidence, Gandalf lost to the Balrog (pyrrhic victory) and he
they were evenly matched. further evidence of Gandalfs true origin
(as Olorin). If he was Olorin (as I believe he was) he would be the
equal of a Balrog - Balrogs were corrupted Maia.
>expressed grave doubts about his ability to defeat the Lord of the Nazgul
>at the Gates of Minas Tirith. Sauron could have crushed the First of the
>Nine in a contest of power even if the Lord hadn't been enslaved.
The Nine were enslaved to Sauron and their power was only his. Without
their rings most were no more powerful than, say, Aragorn. Mind you,
the Witch King was a true sorcerer so he was probably as powerful
as some of the Istari.
Gandalf would certainly have been able to defeat the Witch King (unaided),
and would have been equal to him while he (the WK) had one of the Nine. Don't
forget though, Gandalf was not "designed" to wield power. His purpose
was to persuade and help the peoples of ME. Even in his new form
(White), he still had this purpose.
>Finally, one must remember that Sauron was second only to Morgoth in the
>evil hierarchy. None of the Istari were even close to this level of power
>in the good hierarchy; the Wizards were no Melian.
Not so. Sauron was powerful amoung the Maia and the Istari were no doubt
Maia as well (cf: Olorin). However, the Istari used their power in
a different way.
>The only creature in Middle-Earth that I read as capable of defeating
>Sauron one-on-one (when the Ring wasn't involved) was Tom Bombadil - and
>that old Maia didn't really care one whit or another for anything going
>on outside his own tiny domain.
Nope. Tom Bombadil was no more powerful than Gandalf and like Gandalf,
his power was for use in other ways (rather than direct force like
Sauron). Bombadil would not have been able to defeat Sauron in a battle
of power.
From what I've read, Gandalf, the Istari and Bombadil were equal (or
nearly equal) to Sauron in their overall strength, but because they
used their powers in different ways they weren't equal in terms of
one being able to "destroy" another. Only Sauron was interested in
destroying, so he was most powerful in this aspect.
c.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cameron Newham | Everything counts
c...@iinet.com.au | in large amounts.
c...@adied.oz.au | -- "Everything Counts" Depeche Mode
kopeny jason byron
Here I must beg to differ. Bombadil, as stated by Elrond, was master
in the Old Forest. Elrond did say however that Bombadil would not be able
to stand up against ALL the forces of Sauron, but that it was all
academic any way because Bombadil would never accept the ring. Also, my
own personal gut feeling is that Bombadil was greater than Sauron or
Gandalf alone. Why? The ring. It holds no sway over him. He can touch it
and not be effected, and yet he knows the power it has. And this brings
us to the question of what Bombadil is...I don't know. I think he was
greater then a maiar, some have speculated he was a Valar. This I
s=discount as he would have been mentioned by Tolkien in the Silmarillion
as a Valar during the creation of the world. What I think he is is a
being who was created by the Song of Creation, very likely put in the
song by Eru himself. I believe he was the greatest being on ME at any one
time, with the exception of the two times the Valar came and overthrew
Morgoth. Just my own ideas, but I hope that helps some...
Chad Ryan Thomas
> p.s. Back off the role-playing gamers, man. What have we ever
>done to you?
No problem with rpg's in themselves. I do, however, object to the editors
creating information to fill gaps in Tolkien's narrative. Tolkien told us
what he wanted us to know. Everything else should be "mysterious" If the
rpg were made to follow all the knowledge we DO have, and everything else
was left up to the individual players, I wouldn't even shudder.
Besides, shuddering's not that bad, is it?
Chad Ryan Thomas
****************************************************************************
|"The realm of fairy-story is wide and deep and high and filled with many |
| things...but its very richness and strangeness tie the tongue of a |
| traveller who would report them." -- J.R.R. Tolkien |
| |
|"A fairytale, a sonata, a gathering storm, a limitless night, siezes you |
| and sweeps you away." -- George McDonald |
****************************************************************************
Lars Marius Garshol
In article <Pine.Sola.3.91.95012...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu>, kopeny jason byron <j-ko...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu> writes:
>
> Here I must beg to differ. Bombadil, as stated by Elrond, was master
> in the Old Forest. Elrond did say however that Bombadil would not be able
> to stand up against ALL the forces of Sauron, but that it was all
> academic any way because Bombadil would never accept the ring. Also, my
> own personal gut feeling is that Bombadil was greater than Sauron or
> Gandalf alone. Why? The ring. It holds no sway over him. He can touch it
> and not be effected, and yet he knows the power it has. And this brings
> us to the question of what Bombadil is...I don't know. I think he was
> greater then a maiar, some have speculated he was a Valar. This I
> s=discount as he would have been mentioned by Tolkien in the Silmarillion
> as a Valar during the creation of the world. What I think he is is a
> being who was created by the Song of Creation, very likely put in the
> song by Eru himself. I believe he was the greatest being on ME at any one
> time, with the exception of the two times the Valar came and overthrew
> Morgoth. Just my own ideas, but I hope that helps some...
Whoa, stop there!
That the One Ring held no power over Bombadil seems to be taken very
seriously by a number of people, but as I see it that doesn't tell us any-
thing about Bombadils power. The Ring's main weapon is temptation, it plays
on its victims lust for power. Boromir was desperate for power and glory,
and so was an easy victim. Isildur and Saruman were powerful, but wanted more
power, and so they too fell for the Ring. Sam also felt this temptation, but
not being very powerful, and not really wanting power, he managed to resist
it. (Think of Gandalf's and Galadriel's attitude to the Ring.)
Bombadil, on the other hand, already had all the power he needed, he was
Master of the Old Forest already. (Remember what one of the Elves at the
Council of Elrond said: these things have no hold on him. Ie: he's not
interested.) I believe this is why he is able to resist the Ring, he does
not want power, and so has no use for It.
--Lars M.
Pleased to meet you, won't you guess my name?
> I agree, though, that the invisibility only happens to mortals, so
> the fact that Tom did not disappear when wielding it proves nothing.
> He did, however, easily take it off, but you could argue that he
> only wielded it a short time anyway. However, one thing that does
> prove he was different from almost everyone else, was the fact that
> he could see Frodo when _he_ was wielding it.
>
One thing I noticed in the LOTR was that, in general, the more
power a person had to begin with, the more tempting was the ring, i.e.
Gandalf was positively afraid to even touch it, even Galadriel was
tempted, and it destroyed both Denothor and his son Boromir (they were
more easily corrupted by thirst for power).
Bombadil was the exception to this rule. The ring had absolutely NO
power over him, it was just another trinket. Also note that Tom could
see Frodo, even when he was invisible, whilst Gandalf could not see
Bilbo when he snuck into the dwarves camp during the hobbit...I think
Tom's immunity to the effects of the ring was restricted to him and
perhaps a very few others not encountered in LOTR...
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Lars Christensen | This only was wanting. Now comes the night.
> fl...@inet.uni-c.dk | - Turin Turambar
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So remember when you're feeling very small|Christopher T. Malone (Chris)
and insignificant, how amazingly unlikely |English/Secondary Education major
is your birth, and pray that there's |Minors:
intelligent life somewhere out in space, |Theater/Educational Psychology
'cause there's bugger all down here on |Ball State University
Earth. (Monty Python) |Phone: (317)284-2518
-------------------------------------------
Send Mail to: 00ctm...@bsuvc.bsu.edu or c...@m-net.arbornet.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Carigan
It didn't provide any additional power to him either. There seemed
to be a question as to which was older, the ring or Tom. Remember,
the ent treebeard even remembered him as being infinitely old.
Lars Marius Garshol
In article <Pine.Sola.3.91.95020...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu>, kopeny jason byron <j-ko...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu> writes:
>
> <Article by me stating that Bombadil didn't desire the Ring, because he had
no desire for power DELETED>
>
> That is all correct, except for the fact that he puts it on, and
> NOTHING happens to him. He felt no desire for the ring, but more
> importantly it had no power to effect him. This is what makes him
> different from any one else in the book...
When Gandalf explained why the Ring made Frodo invisible, and the Ringwraiths
visible to him (first chapter in Book II, I think) he said that there were two
'planes of existence' (not a quote.) Humans, hobbits and most Elves were only
present in the physical plane, the High Elves of Valinor, however, were present
in both. (I also take some passages in the Valaquenta to mean that the Ainur
were always present in the other (spiritual?) plane, but could take presence in
the physical, should they so wish.) What the Ring did was to move the wearer
from the physical to the spiritual plane. And if you used it too often, and
faded, you would remain there.
However, we only know that it made Humans and Hobbits invisible. The only other
beings who have worn it are Bombadil and Sauron. Bombadil remained visible, and
could see Frodo when he wore the Ring. However, Sauron also must have been
visible when wearing the Ring. The evidence for this is that at the end of the
Siege of Barad-dur, Sauron came out to wrestle with Gil-galad and Elendil. To
do that, and for Isildur to cut the Ring off his finger, he must have been
visible. And he must have worn the Ring, or Isildur could not cut if off
together with the finger.
So my theory is that a resident of both planes (which Sauron as a Maia would
be) is not made invisible by the Ring. And a resident on the 'spiritual' plane
would also be able to see anyone wearing the Ring, as that is where the wearer
would be.
Therefore: all this tells us is that Bombadil is a resident of both planes.
But this does not necessarily make him a Maia, to my mind it makes him an
'unspecified spirit'. (Like Ungoliant and the spirits summoned to be Ents.)
--Lars M.
_______________________________________________________________________________
-- Lars M. Garshol, Institute of Informatics, Oslo University
lar...@ifi.uio.no http://www.ifi.uio.no/~larsga
"Life is a sexually transmitted disease." -- A. Brink
Chad Ryan Thomas
[snip]
>When Gandalf explained why the Ring made Frodo invisible, and the Ringwraiths
>visible to him (first chapter in Book II, I think) he said that there were two
>'planes of existence' (not a quote.) Humans, hobbits and most Elves were only
>present in the physical plane, the High Elves of Valinor, however, were present
>in both. (I also take some passages in the Valaquenta to mean that the Ainur
>were always present in the other (spiritual?) plane, but could take presence in
>the physical, should they so wish.) What the Ring did was to move the wearer
>from the physical to the spiritual plane. And if you used it too often, and
>faded, you would remain there.
Interesting. Never thought about it that way before, and I surely never
realized Sauron *had* to be visible when wearing the ring. You've at
least prompted some thought on my part. Thanks!
Chad Ryan Thomas
****************************************************************************
|"The realm of fairy-story is wide and deep and high and filled with many |
| things...but its very richness and strangeness tie the tongue of a |
| traveller who would report them." -- J.R.R. Tolkien |
| |
|"A fairytale, a sonata, a gathering storm, a limitless night, seizes you |