COTW: Of the Coming of Men into the West

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Michelle

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Aug 12, 2006, 6:42:27 PM8/12/06
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Take Two, and if the other one appears..well...OK.

I shall make no excuses for my extreme lateness, only apologies, and
here it is, finally.

I find Silmarillion chapter difficult to summarize, personally.
Because they are so often written from a detached, historical
perspective, they often already have a summarized feel to them. So,
onward and upward.

The Silmarillion
Chapter 22
Of The Coming of the Men into the West

Our history is picked up 300 year after the return of the Noldor, in
the days of the Long Peace. Felagund becomes bored on a hunting trip,
and wanders off [1] and stumbles into a place where he sees fire and
hears music [2]. Felagund perceives these people are not Dwarves or
Orcs and stays hidden to observe them until they all fall to sleep. At
this point he goes into their camp, picks up one of their own harps,
and wakes them with music [3], which causes them to have visions of
Aman, so at first they take him for a Vala. Felagund stays with them
for some time, teaching proper history, lore, and some skills.
Felagund soon discovers that these men themselves are a bit hazy on
their origins, just that they are fleeing some darkness, and their
forefathers have deliberately obscured their pasts, but they have had
some contact with some of the Dark Elves, and also some with Sauron who
sought to corrupt them.

Beor explains there are other tribes, if you will, coming this way and
the Green Elves would rather not have them there, so ask Felagund to
have them either turn around or keep going. They gather up all of
Beor's people and move them to a new place, at which point Felagund
goes home, and Beor elects to go with him as his vassal, giving up the
rule of his people to his son.[4]

After Beor's people leave, the next sets of people start coming
through, much to the irritation of the Green Elves. They apparently
get belligerent with Haladin's people, so they head north and find a
place to live where they are left alone. Marach's people come marching
along very militarily, so the Green Elves do a collective "Eep!"
and hide rather than copping an attitude this time. But Marach's
people keep going and settle near to Beor's people. From these points
men gradually ease into the Elven lands, often under Elven rule, but
Thingol starts to have disturbing dreams about them, and declares no
Men will enter his lands, period, end of discussion, he's putting his
foot down.[5]

We see the first splits in the Houses of Men, where some of the Men of
the Houses of Beor and Marach who choose not to move further into
Elvish lands distrust the Elves, and disbelieve the tales of the Valar.
After much argument, many pack it up and leave, a large contingent
going south with Bereg, others disappearing back into Eriador.

The people of Haladin, living largely quiet, homesteading live up to
this point, now feel Morgoth's military wrath, rather than him trying
to dislodge them by deceit as with the other two Houses. The folk of
Haladin are repeatedly raided, and nearly slaughtered until rescued by
Caranthir. He offers Haleth, the surviving leader of the people, his
protection, but she turns him down and moves her people to Estolad, the
original place Felagund moved Beor's people to. For no stated reason,
and against their wishes, Haleth packs up her people again, takes an
even more dangerous journey, and moves them into a dangerous land where
Thingol grudgingly allows them to live, provided they kill Orcs there
for him.[6]

At this point we get some lineage of characters yet to come in the
story. I'll just leave that alone for the moment.

The chapter ends with the death of Beor, in is 93 year, passing
willingly. And with the bewilderment of the Elves facing the mortality
of their new friends, not understanding how to deal with it, or
understanding the fate of Men.

[1] The Elves don't do anything the simple way, do they? Not even
getting bored and wandering off. He doesn't wander over the hill and
go fishing or something. He goes over to an entirely different
mountain range, discovers a new species of sentient being, and stays
there apparently for a year. That's some way to overcome being bored!

[2] Music as the mark of sentience and culture is always important in
Tolkien (see note 3) and this reference to the fact that the Green
Elves of this land do not sing by night indicates they have grown so
cautious as to lose something precious - at least it has always
seemed so to me.

[3] Music is woven so profoundly into Tolkien's universe. Not only as
the foundation for it's creation, often as power in battles, but also
as the basis for significant encounters of friendship and love. Music
is the key for intelligence, creation, humanity and provides the first
touch of understanding between good-hearted strangers. Even the Orcs
sing, if rough, unlovely songs.

[4] This has always struck me as, I don't know. Strange. He and
Felagund couldn't visit? Remain pals? It almost seems like Beor never
quite lost that first impression of Felagund as a God-like figure, even
after learning better.

[5] Famous last words, we all know how that turns out, now don't we?

[6] I really don't get this. It's started some of her people would
follow her anywhere, and that at a certain point the journey was so
dangerous and enough of them had been killed that they couldn't turn
back even if the ones who were mad at her wanted to, so OK. But, it
never states why she packed up and moved in the first place, other than
sheer pigheadedness. I like our Professor's strong women. I just
sometimes wish it would give us some logical reasons for them being so
danged stubborn.

Michelle
Flutist

Phlip

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Aug 12, 2006, 7:14:45 PM8/12/06
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Michelle wrote:

> The Silmarillion
> Chapter 22
> Of The Coming of the Men into the West
>
> Our history is picked up 300 year after the return of the Noldor, in
> the days of the Long Peace. Felagund becomes bored on a hunting trip,
> and wanders off [1] and stumbles into a place where he sees fire and
> hears music [2]. Felagund perceives these people are not Dwarves or
> Orcs and stays hidden to observe them until they all fall to sleep.

Tolkien's Elves and Men represent Fallen Angels and Risen Apes. Modern
science identifies humans as both, so Tolkien's cosmology distinguishes the
two. His Angels indeed fell from grace in Aman, as his Men rose out of the
Darkness of Melkor's Reign.

Regardless whether Tolkien's Men "evolved" from Apes (a concept that
predates Darwin's books by thousands of years), we should visualize these
men as Cave Men, or as Paleo-amerinds. They wear skins, sharpen rocks, use
fire, weave their hair, tell long stories, and make music.

One question: How much contact did they have with the Dark Elves? with the
unwilling Avari (?) that remained in small communities east of the Blue
Mountains? Felagund is apparently their first contact with a High Elf.

> Beor explains there are other tribes...

Your summary neglected to introduce Beor. Also, I thought Beor got his name
_after_ his tribe became a Vassal of an Elf state.

Like the Eldar, the Men have appointed their smartest (and toughest)
headsmen to be their chiefs. And the Eldar will now introduce them to
Politics, and War.

> Thingol starts to have disturbing dreams about them, and declares no
> Men will enter his lands, period, end of discussion, he's putting his
> foot down.[5]

And hence Thingol begins the conflicts that will lead to his realm's
downfall. He indeed plays the Fallen Angel!

> The people of Haladin, living largely quiet, homesteading live up to

> this point...

This opens the question at what point these Men learn agriculture. All known
Homo Sapiens tribes cultivate their lands, and the term "hunter-gatherer" is
an ignorant myth. However, these Men seem to have leapfrogged from nomadic
pastoralism directly into settled ruralism. The storyline may contain room
for the Eldar to simply send mentors among them who teach them how to farm
without wearing out the soil; how to herd and harvest and process.

> The chapter ends with the death of Beor, in is 93 year, passing
> willingly. And with the bewilderment of the Elves facing the mortality
> of their new friends, not understanding how to deal with it, or
> understanding the fate of Men.

This implies Dwarves are sufficiently secretive, and long-lived, that no
Eldar group has yet to react to any natural death among them.

> [1] The Elves don't do anything the simple way, do they? Not even
> getting bored and wandering off. He doesn't wander over the hill and
> go fishing or something. He goes over to an entirely different
> mountain range, discovers a new species of sentient being, and stays
> there apparently for a year. That's some way to overcome being bored!

To the Eldar, a solar year is a daliance - the time for one hobby or minor
enterprise. They don't even bother to count solar years; they measure their
lives in long-years. Yeni unotime, right?

> [3] Music is woven so profoundly into Tolkien's universe.

It's also the culture of the illiterate. Recall that the Rohirrim wrote no
sagas, but sang long songs of their past. Regardless whether their nobles
could read and write, literacy was not part of their culture, nor widespread
among their people. They sang to remember.

--
Phlip
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!


Michelle

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Aug 12, 2006, 8:11:16 PM8/12/06
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Phlip wrote:
>
> Your summary neglected to introduce Beor. Also, I thought Beor got his name
> _after_ his tribe became a Vassal of an Elf state.

*blinks*

*flips through handwritten notes*

*flips through computer written notes*

Well, holy hannah, I've misplaced a paragraph!

Phooie.

Beor is introduced as "Beor the Old, as as he was afterwards called, a
chieftain among men", we are not told us original name until after
we're told Beor means Vassal. It's not until he goes to live with
Felagund that we're told "In this way he got his name, Beor, whereas
his name before had be Balan; for Beor signified Vassal in the tongue
of his people." A backwards introduction from the author, as well.

Michelle
Flutist

Larry Swain

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Aug 13, 2006, 1:12:25 PM8/13/06
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Phlip wrote:
> Michelle wrote:
>
>
>>The Silmarillion
>>Chapter 22
>>Of The Coming of the Men into the West
>>
>>Our history is picked up 300 year after the return of the Noldor, in
>>the days of the Long Peace. Felagund becomes bored on a hunting trip,
>>and wanders off [1] and stumbles into a place where he sees fire and
>>hears music [2]. Felagund perceives these people are not Dwarves or
>>Orcs and stays hidden to observe them until they all fall to sleep.
>
>
> Tolkien's Elves and Men represent Fallen Angels and Risen Apes. Modern
> science identifies humans as both, so Tolkien's cosmology distinguishes the
> two. His Angels indeed fell from grace in Aman, as his Men rose out of the
> Darkness of Melkor's Reign.

No they don't. Melkor and his followers represent in part the Fallen
Angels, in part something else for which you'll have to see my
forthcoming article. But the Elves are not fallen angels, fallen, but
not angels.

For Tolkien, there is no such thing as "risen apes", Evolutionary Theory
does not enter into his cosmology in any way. His men are ESCAPING
Melkor's Darkness, and there is the Fall behind them of which they will
not speak.

>
>>The people of Haladin, living largely quiet, homesteading live up to
>>this point...
>
>
> This opens the question at what point these Men learn agriculture.

Not really. You assume that because the groups of Men are migrating
that this means they are wandering tribes not yet settled or
agricultural, rather than previously settled and forced to move to
escape Melkor.

>>The chapter ends with the death of Beor, in is 93 year, passing
>>willingly. And with the bewilderment of the Elves facing the mortality
>>of their new friends, not understanding how to deal with it, or
>>understanding the fate of Men.
>
>
> This implies Dwarves are sufficiently secretive, and long-lived, that no
> Eldar group has yet to react to any natural death among them.

At this point, it isn't just the Dwarves who are secretive, but the
Elves also.
>

Phlip

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Aug 13, 2006, 2:32:52 PM8/13/06
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Michelle wrote:

> Well, holy hannah, I've misplaced a paragraph!

Shh! We shouldn't interrupt the boys when they are "playing". ;-)

Troels Forchhammer

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Aug 13, 2006, 4:38:02 PM8/13/06
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In message <news:FhtDg.6498$1f6....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>
"Phlip" <phli...@yahoo.com> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> Tolkien's Elves and Men represent Fallen Angels and Risen Apes.

The Fallen Angels are not 'represented' as such, the /are/ Melkor and
his Maia followers, and Men are, as Larry notes, not evolved, but
created (and awoken) as they are.

> Modern science identifies humans as both,

Rubbish!

Modern /science/ identifies humans as apes. The rest has nothing to do
with science.

<snip>

> we should visualize these men as Cave Men, or as Paleo-amerinds.

No. You should visualize them as the descendants of a decadent,
Morgoth-worshipping culture, building elaborate temples to his honour.

Read the descriptions again -- musical instruments (even if more
primitive than the Elvish instruments), homesteads, a warlike people
marching in ordered companies -- everything points to a society and a
technological level far beyond the cave-man stage, even if these
peoples have been migrating (possibly for more than one generation).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the
world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!
- Aragorn, /The Lord of the Rings/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)

Phlip

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Aug 14, 2006, 9:04:41 AM8/14/06
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Michelle wrote:

> Our history is picked up 300 year after the return of the Noldor, in
> the days of the Long Peace. Felagund becomes bored on a hunting trip,
> and wanders off [1] and stumbles into a place where he sees fire and
> hears music [2]. Felagund perceives these people are not Dwarves or
> Orcs and stays hidden to observe them until they all fall to sleep.

Another theme here: The earliest Men encountered are fleeing the influence
of Morgoth's servants. Later on, Morgoth will prepare groups of warriors,
and migrate them westward, as a military tactic. So the earliest Men can be
viewed as out-groups of these great Easterling civilizations. They could be
refugees that these civilizations displaced, or even escaped slaves
attempting an Exodus.

Troels Forchhammer

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Aug 14, 2006, 2:31:15 PM8/14/06
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In message
<news:1155422547.4...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>
"Michelle" <mha...@nanc.com> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> I shall make no excuses for my extreme lateness, only apologies,
> and here it is, finally.

Well, it's the summer time, and many people have been away for their
holidays, so all in all I don't think that it's been too much of a
problem.

> I find Silmarillion chapter difficult to summarize, personally.
> Because they are so often written from a detached, historical
> perspective, they often already have a summarized feel to them.

I agree, and yet the most of them are quite expanded in comparison
with the earliest versions. (Though perhaps I am not the one to speak
too boldly -- after all I managed to spend three times as many words
introducing 'Of Men' as Tolkien spent on the actual chapter <G>)

> So, onward and upward.

Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.

;-)


> The Silmarillion
> Chapter 22
> Of The Coming of the Men into the West

<snip>

> Felagund stays with them for some time, teaching proper history,
> lore, and some skills.

Felagund is named, by the people of Bëor, "Nóm, that is Wisdom, in
the language of that people, and after him they named his folk Nómin,
the Wise." Is this the last vestige of the old name for the Noldor,
'the Gnomes'?

> Felagund soon discovers that these men themselves are a bit hazy
> on their origins, just that they are fleeing some darkness, and
> their forefathers have deliberately obscured their pasts, but

> they have had some contactwith some of the Dark Elves, and also

> some with Sauron who sought to corrupt them.

And with Melkor, even. ;)

It is noteworthy, I think, that this tale is, by and large,
consistent with the later 'Tale of Adanel', which is given in the
author's commentary to 'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth'.

In /The Tale of Andreth/ is related further details of the period
just after the Awakening of Men, describing how Eru first instructed
them in their minds, but how Melkor arrived and deceived them, and
turned them to the worship of himself. Only a few escaped that
shadow, though marked by it; presumably (some of?) these fugitives
were eventually to enter Beleriand and befriend the Eldar.

This consistency lends further credibility to Adanel's Tale as
describing, in part at least, Tolkien's ultimate intention (I'm
dubious about the claim that Men, like Elves, were originally
intended to be long-lived [i.e. not to die within the history of Arda
as a habitable place] and in particular the description of mortality
[or at least shorter life-spans] as a punishment by Eru rather than a
gift).


Another note of interest here: Melkor left the command of the war to
Sauron: is there any way for us to guess at which maneuvres were
instigated by Sauron rather than Morgoth? We have, in chapter 13 'Of
the Noldor in Beleriand' descriptions of some of the skirmishes
during the Siege of Angband (during which Morgoth's journey east must
have occurred) -- the army of Orcs going north and coming down in the
west, and the appearance of Glaurung. It can hardly wait until after
Glaurung, since that would leave too short time for Morgoth's
journey, the corruption and the migration of Men (in the /Grey
Annals/ the appearance of Glaurung is dated to YS255 and the date
YS400 for Finrod's meeting with Men is noted to be 'too late') -- and
even if Morgoth's servants didn't find the newly awakened humans
immediately, I find it difficult to believe it took them more than
200 years. I could very well imagine that the attack by Glaurung,
with which Morgoth was ill-pleased, happened during Morgoth's absence
as was, possibly, even the direct reason for his return to Angband
(well, that is pure speculation, of course; of the 'this might work
for me' sort -- at least I am not aware of any texts supporting these
details).


> Beor explains there are other tribes, if you will, coming this way
> and the Green Elves would rather not have them there, so ask
> Felagund to have them either turn around or keep going.

Saying, because the Men are "hewers of trees and hunters of beasts"
that they are their "unfriends". Now the application of the negating
prefix to the word for 'friend' is common usage in Danish to signify
someone with whom one is on unfriendly terms, but is the use of
'unfriend' common in English? (I don't recall seeing it outside
Tolkien's writings, though I could easily be wrong about that.)

<snip>

> but Thingol starts to have disturbing dreams about them, and
> declares no Men will enter his lands, period, end of discussion,
> he's putting his foot down.[5]

Or, perhaps rather, he is putting his wife's foot down :-D

Melian, with the foreknowledge of the Ainur, tells Galadriel that
[...] one of Men, even of Bëor's house, shall indeed come,
and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom
greater than my power shall send him; [...]

Apart from this obviously foreshadowing the arrival of Beren (two
chapters hence), I am also interested in the sense in which Melian is
using the word "doom" in this context. How can 'doom' compare to
'power'? The sense I get is that of 'doom ordained (and backed) by
one whose power is' -- most likely referring to Beren's doom as being
part of Eru's design.

> We see the first splits in the Houses of Men, where some of the
> Men of the Houses of Beor and Marach who choose not to move
> further into Elvish lands distrust the Elves, and disbelieve the
> tales of the Valar.

Not so fast there . . . ;-)

But there arose one who seemed to all to be Amlach son of
Imlach, speaking fell words that shook the hearts of all
who heard him: [...]

So, yes, this was an example of what Galadriel would happily term
'the deceits of the Enemy', but would anyone venture a closer guess?
At a guess, I would think it likely that the dissention and spreading
of lies among the Edain was of sufficient importance to Morgoth for
him to send one of his top people, so I am tempted to ask whether
you, too, would think it 'quite likely' to be Sauron in disguise
here?

It cannot be Morgoth himself, because he had already lost his ability
to assume other shape than "the form that he had worn as the tyrant
of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible." (ch. 8 'Of the Darkening
of Valinor'), but Sauron could still change shape at will, and Sauron
was possibly even better at deceiving Men than was Morgoth.

Anyway, it is just a stray thought -- a pang of unsatisfied curiosity
;-)


Christopher Kreuzer had noted the interesting passage:
He hates us, rather, and ever the more the longer we dwell
here, meddling in his quarrel with the Kings of the Eldar
[...].
and compared it to the earlier passage from the previous chapter:
[Aredhel] desiring ever the longer the more to ride again
in the wide lands and to walk in the forests, [...].
[Silm QS,16 'Of Maeglin' ]

In both cases we have a situation were B continues to increase while
A is true (A => dB/dt > 0). In the passage from ch. 16 A is implicit
(Aredhel staying in Gondolin), whereas in the present chapter both
are made explicit. Apart from that the two expressions seem to mirror
each other quite well.

Incidentally, "ever the more the longer" creates 17 hits on Google
(of which a number are quotations from Tolkien and a couple are from
"Grettir's Saga" <http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/347>) and 356
without the "ever". The corresponding numbers for the other word-
order are 15 and 914 (searches on Google Books are also interesting
<http://books.google.com>).

Can anyone tell if there is an actual difference to the two versions
-- e.g. whether the Aredhel passage should only be used when the
condition (here: Aredhel staying in Gondolin) is only implied. Is it
possible to have an explicit condition in the Aredhel version without
breaking up the phrase ("ever the longer A the more B" where A is
inserted into the phrase)?

> After much argument, many pack it up and leave, a large contingent
> going south with Bereg,

But Amlach had a change of heart, feeling, after having been used for
Morgoth's deceits, that he had his own matters to settle with the
Dark Lord, and thus he went north to the war.

> others disappearing back into Eriador.

I am immediately reminded of this other passage:

According to their own tales they were the original
inhabitants and were the descendants of the first Men that
ever wandered into the West of the middle-world. Few had
survived the turmoils of the Elder Days; but when the Kings
returned again over the Great Sea they had found the Bree-
men still there, and they were still there now, when the
memory of the old Kings had faded into the grass.
[LotR I,9 'At the Sign of The Prancing Pony']

The people of Marach, as Bëor tells Felagund, were foremost on the
westward march, but were overtaken by the others because of their
numbers, and the text in this chapter specifies that the ones who
went "back over the mountains into Eriador" were those of Amlach's
people who would still flee the Dark Lord.

All in all I think the passage about the Bree-men fits surprisingly
well for a (this particular?) portion of the people of Marach. Is
this mere co-incidence?

<snip>

> The people of Haladin, living largely quiet,

There is no mention here of the Drúedain, who were supposed to live
among the folk of Haleth. Story-externally this is doubtlessly
because the story of the Drúedain was probably not developed until
after Tolkien had written the last version of the Quenta Silmarillion
texts; but is it credible, story-internally, that they should not be
mentioned (some of them did go to Númenor with the other Edain, and
hence should, no later than at that point, have become known both to
the peoples of Hador and Baran, but also to the Eldar).

<snip>


> The chapter ends with the death of Beor, in is 93 year, passing
> willingly. And with the bewilderment of the Elves facing the
> mortality of their new friends, not understanding how to deal with
> it, or understanding the fate of Men.

I cannot strongly enough recommend reading the Athrabeth Finrod ah
Andreth: essentially a transcript of the Debate of Finrod and
Andreth; the latter "a woman of the House of Bëor, the sister of
Bregor father of Barahir [...]. She was wise in thought, and learned
in the lore of Men and their histories; for which reason the Eldar
called her Saelind, 'Wise-heart'." It is to be found in /Morgoth's
Ring/ (volume 10 of HoMe), and should be availabe from the library,
if necessary as inter-library loan.

The debate touches on the differences between Men and Elves with
respect to their ultimate fate, and it takes the route around an
explanation of different kinds of hope.

<snip>

> [2] Music as the mark of sentience and culture

[...]


> this reference to the fact that the Green Elves of this land
> do not sing by night indicates they have grown so cautious as
> to lose something precious - at least it has always seemed so
> to me.

That's a very astute observation, I think.

<re-arranging a bit>


> [2] Music as the mark of sentience and culture is always
> important in Tolkien

[...]
> - Even the Orcs sing, if rough, unlovely songs.

That is very true -- the Ainulindalë is, in many ways, remarkable in
Tolkien's conception of his mythology in that it underwent virtually
no major changes from the earliest version (available in BOLT) to the
last, post-LotR version (in MR). Before anything else, I think that
music in Tolkien's sub-creation was a tribute to Eru, and ultimately
(typing as I develop the idea) all music becomes echoes of the Music
of the Ainur and hence, regardless of the subject, all music in Eä
contains a homage to Eru -- even the coarse singing of the Orcs.

We have, at various points, discussed much about the possession of
souls (or /fëar/) -- whether this or that creature possessed a soul.
Could it be that the capability for music is an indication of a soul?
And wouldn't that mean that even the Eagle that sang the message of
victory over Minas Tirith had a soul?

> [3] Music is woven so profoundly into Tolkien's universe.

> - Not only as the foundation for it's creation,

And the Ainulindalë is more than just the creation-story: the fate
and the history of Arda is contained in the music so such a degree
that it is at times difficult to separate the Music and the actual
existence of Time:

Though all tides and seasons were at the will of the Valar,
and in Valinor there was no winter of death, nonetheless
they dwelt then in the Kingdom of Arda, and that was but a
small realm in the halls of Eä, whose life is Time, which
flows ever from the first note to the last chord of Eru.
[Silm QS,8 'Of the Darkening of Valinor']

> - often as power in battles,

Probably most illustriously exemplified by the battle between Sauron
and Felagund and Lúthien's song to put Angband to sleep.

> - but also as the basis for significant encounters of friendship
> and love.

Including Thingol & Melian, Lúthien and Beren, Arwen and Aragorn, but
not (as far as I remember) Tuor and Idril.

> - Music is the key for intelligence, creation, humanity and

> provides the first touch of understanding between good-hearted
> strangers.

When I read the description of Bëor's people listening to Felagund, I
am always reminded of Frodo's experiences in the Hall of Fire in
Rivendell, on the eve of Elrond's feast:

At first the beauty of the melodies and of the interwoven
words in elven-tongues, even though he understood them
little, held him in a spell, as soon as he began to attend
to them. Almost it seemed that the words took shape, and
visions of far lands and bright things that he had never
yet imagined opened out before him; and the firelit hall
became like a golden mist above seas of foam that sighed
upon the margins of the world. Then the enchantment became
more and more dreamlike, until he felt that an endless
river of swelling gold and silver was flowing over him, too
multitudinous for its pattern to be comprehended; it became
part of the throbbing air about him, and it drenched and
drowned him. Swiftly he sank under its shining weight into
a deep realm of sleep.
[LotR II,1 'Many Meetings']

Imagine being woken by that -- you don't feel that you're waking, but
rather that you're falling deeper asleep, and your dreams become high
and beautiful, revealing to you truths beyond your wildest dreams.

> Beor elects to go with him as his vassal, giving up the rule of
> his people to his son.[4]

> [4] This has always struck me as, I don't know. Strange.

That he never returned to Estolad, I presume: not that he committed
the rule of his people to his son? Or do you think of Bëor's
(previously 'Balan') desire to stay with Felagund?

[...]


> It almost seems like Beor never quite lost that first impression
> of Felagund as a God-like figure, even after learning better.

I think that is quite close to the truth -- Bëor came, so to speak,
under the enchantment of Finrod Felagund. This is the first meeting
between Men and Elves, and Finrod can have no idea what effect he
would have on the Men. Enchantment, here, is intended in the same
ambiguous sense as in /On Fairy Stories/:

Now "Faërian Drama"-those plays which according to
abundant records the elves have often presented to men --
can produce Fantasy with a realism and immediacy beyond
the compass of any human mechanism. [...] You are deluded
-- whether that is the intention of the elves (always or
at any time) is another question. They at any rate are not
themselves deluded. This is for them a form of Art, and
distinct from Wizardry or Magic, properly so called. [...].
[...] but the more potent and specially elvish craft I
will, for lack of a less debatable word, call Enchantment.
Enchantment produces a Secondary World into which both
designer and spectator can enter, to the satisfaction of
their senses while they are inside; but in its purity it
is artistic in desire and purpose.

I am Bëor, always eagerly awaiting the chance to become enchanted by
the Secondary World created by my Finrod Felagund; J.R.R. Tolkien.

> [5] Famous last words, we all know how that turns out, now don't
> we?
>
> [6] I really don't get this. It's started some of her people
> would follow her anywhere, and that at a certain point the journey
> was so dangerous and enough of them had been killed that they
> couldn't turn back even if the ones who were mad at her wanted to,
> so OK. But, it never states why she packed up and moved in the
> first place, other than sheer pigheadedness.


> I like our Professor's strong women.

And there's a lot of them, I think. It is not as obvious in LotR
(where it is mostly Galadriel that we see, though Varda is clearly
held in more reverence by the exiles than any other Vala), but in
Silm it becomes clear: Lúthien, Melian, Haleth, Aredhel, etc.

> I just sometimes wish it would give us some logical reasons for
> them being so danged stubborn.

LOL! Well -- that particular question has, I think, always bugged my
fellow males, and all Tolkien could do was to describe it;
explanations being beyond mere men ;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the
same level of thinking with which we created them.
- Albert Einstein

Pete Gray

unread,
Aug 14, 2006, 5:06:13 PM8/14/06
to
In article <Xns981FD0BF...@130.133.1.4>,
Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid says...

> In message
> <news:1155422547.4...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>
> "Michelle" <mha...@nanc.com> enriched us with:
> >
>
> Saying, because the Men are "hewers of trees and hunters of beasts"
> that they are their "unfriends". Now the application of the negating
> prefix to the word for 'friend' is common usage in Danish to signify
> someone with whom one is on unfriendly terms, but is the use of
> 'unfriend' common in English? (I don't recall seeing it outside
> Tolkien's writings, though I could easily be wrong about that.)
>

'Unfriend' is in my dictionary - 'not a friend', but not quite graduated
to 'enemy'. OTOH 'unfriendly' does indicate a certain level of active
hostitlity.

> > but Thingol starts to have disturbing dreams about them, and
> > declares no Men will enter his lands, period, end of discussion,
> > he's putting his foot down.[5]
>
> Or, perhaps rather, he is putting his wife's foot down :-D
>

Or parading about in her girdle...

--
Pete Gray

The Curator's Egg
<http://www.redbadge.co.uk/egg/>

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Aug 14, 2006, 5:38:19 PM8/14/06
to
In message <news:MPG.1f4af6214...@news.zen.co.uk> Pete
Gray <ne...@redbadge.co.uk> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

Thanks!

> 'Unfriend' is in my dictionary - 'not a friend', but not quite
> graduated to 'enemy'.

This prompted me to do what I should have done earlier -- do a
dictionary search for myself.

OneLook returns only four hits for 'unfriend' -- three of which are
simply quotations of the fourth: the 1913 Webster Dictionary:
<http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=unfriend>

"n. One not a friend; an enemy. [R.] Carlyle."

> OTOH 'unfriendly' does indicate a certain level of active
> hostitlity.

'Unfriendly' is, not surprisingly, far more common than the noun, but
both the AskOxford and the Cambridge dictionaries return definitions
that don't include the active hostility:

"not friendly"
<http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/unfriendly>

"showing dislike and lack of sympathy; not friendly"
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=86521&dict=CALD>

The latter definition fits my understanding, as based on the Danish
usage, quite well -- less than actual hostility, but actively
disliking. The noun, 'unfriend' would then be one towards whom you
are unfriendly.

The Danish noun, "uven" ("ven" is 'friend') is, in my dictionary
translated as 'Enemy or ill-wisher'. My normal understanding would
fit the latter -- someone for whom I wish some bad luck (although not
serious injury -- that is reserved for actual enemies).

I suppose the lack of entries in modern dictionaries answers my
question of whether the use of 'unfriend' is common in English -- it
appears to have, at the very least, fallen into disuse ;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Love while you've got
love to give.
Live while you've got
life to live.
- Piet Hein, /Memento Vivere/

Pete Gray

unread,
Aug 14, 2006, 6:29:12 PM8/14/06
to
In article <Xns981FF078...@130.133.1.4>,
Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid says...

> In message <news:MPG.1f4af6214...@news.zen.co.uk> Pete
> Gray <ne...@redbadge.co.uk> enriched us with:
> >
> Thanks!
>
You're welcome!

> > 'Unfriend' is in my dictionary - 'not a friend', but not quite
> > graduated to 'enemy'.
>
> This prompted me to do what I should have done earlier -- do a
> dictionary search for myself.
>

This was a 1990 Chambers English Dictionary -
unfriend, n, one who is not a friend [well, duh!]
unfriendly, adj, ill-disposed: somewhat hostile

and also includes:
unfriended, adj, not provided with, or supported by, friends

> OneLook returns only four hits for 'unfriend' -- three of which are
> simply quotations of the fourth: the 1913 Webster Dictionary:
> <http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=unfriend>
>
> "n. One not a friend; an enemy. [R.] Carlyle."

Hmmm. Nice. As in 'who is not with us, is against us', perhaps?

> > OTOH 'unfriendly' does indicate a certain level of active
> > hostitlity.
>
> 'Unfriendly' is, not surprisingly, far more common than the noun, but
> both the AskOxford and the Cambridge dictionaries return definitions
> that don't include the active hostility:
>
> "not friendly"
> <http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/unfriendly>
>
> "showing dislike and lack of sympathy; not friendly"
> <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=86521&dict=CALD>
>

I think it's a bit more active than this. Defining 'unfriendly' as
merely 'not friendly' is not enough. 'Showing dislike' sounds kind of
hostile to me. Maybe I'm just sensitive ;-)

> The latter definition fits my understanding, as based on the Danish
> usage, quite well -- less than actual hostility, but actively
> disliking. The noun, 'unfriend' would then be one towards whom you
> are unfriendly.

I think 'unfriendly' must be more than just disliking, but the active
demonstration of that dislike.

> The Danish noun, "uven" ("ven" is 'friend') is, in my dictionary
> translated as 'Enemy or ill-wisher'. My normal understanding would
> fit the latter -- someone for whom I wish some bad luck (although not
> serious injury -- that is reserved for actual enemies).

A broken necklace as opposed to a broken neck, perhaps?

> I suppose the lack of entries in modern dictionaries answers my
> question of whether the use of 'unfriend' is common in English -- it
> appears to have, at the very least, fallen into disuse ;-)

Not common at all, but in English you can stick 'un-' on the beginning
of any noun, adjective, verb or adverb and make a new word. No guarantee
that other people will use it, of course. Or, if you like, that other
people will use it is unguaranteed.

--
Pete Gray

On the subject of christenings, someone at the Motley Fool has noticed
that the name of Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie?s new child, 'Shiloh
Pitt', is a world-class spoonerism waiting to happen.

Count Menelvagor

unread,
Aug 14, 2006, 11:13:28 PM8/14/06
to

Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message
> <news:1155422547.4...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>
> "Michelle" <mha...@nanc.com> enriched us with:

> This consistency lends further credibility to Adanel's Tale as


> describing, in part at least, Tolkien's ultimate intention (I'm
> dubious about the claim that Men, like Elves, were originally
> intended to be long-lived [i.e. not to die within the history of Arda
> as a habitable place] and in particular the description of mortality
> [or at least shorter life-spans] as a punishment by Eru rather than a
> gift).

i think this bit comes from tolkien trying to make his mythos more
consistent with Xtianity (death coming from the fall), and thus more
like the truth as he saw it. kind of like jettisoning the sun-and-moon
myth to make the mythos more scientific, and thus again closer to
truth. there's a bit of a tension between the view of death in
silmarillion/akallabeth and that in Xtian theology.

<unfriend, etc.>

the word, like "unsay", comes off a bit weird. i vaguely wondered
whether the bit about the "unfriendship" of the green elves, or whoever
they were, was supposed to be funny. a similar weird impression is
produced by saruman/gandalf's "unsay."

JimboCat

unread,
Aug 15, 2006, 4:13:47 PM8/15/06
to
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

>is the use of
>'unfriend' common in English? (I don't recall seeing it outside
>Tolkien's writings, though I could easily be wrong about that.)

Not common in modern American English -- I also have never heard it in
conversation or contemporary writing (except in presumed reference to
Tolkien, i.e. right here). But it is cited from Robert Louis Stevenson
and Rudyard Kipling, so it is not a pure Tolkienism, either.

>Melian, with the foreknowledge of the Ainur, tells Galadriel that
> [...] one of Men, even of Bëor's house, shall indeed come,
> and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom
> greater than my power shall send him; [...]
>
>Apart from this obviously foreshadowing the arrival of Beren (two
>chapters hence), I am also interested in the sense in which Melian is
>using the word "doom" in this context. How can 'doom' compare to
>'power'? The sense I get is that of 'doom ordained (and backed) by
>one whose power is' -- most likely referring to Beren's doom as being
>part of Eru's design.

I disagree. I think that "Doom" trumps "Power" in the Tolkienverse. It
may sometimes make sense to explain why doom does trump power in terms
of doom deriving from Eru's plan, but often I think it does not:
Feanor's doom was of a different origin (in his own tragic flaw), as
was Turin's.

[Frodo's "enchantment" in the Hall of Fire quote]


>Imagine being woken by that -- you don't feel that you're waking, but
>rather that you're falling deeper asleep, and your dreams become high
>and beautiful, revealing to you truths beyond your wildest dreams.

Frodo on drugs!

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"If it doesn't have an omnipotent transcendant being that created the
universe and ensouled mankind, weekly church services, a heirarchy of
clerics, a moral code based around the Golden Rule with a side order of
submission to authority, and eternal happiness in the afterlife for
everyone who goes to church and adheres to the moral code, it isn't
"really" a religion."
-- John Schilling

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Aug 15, 2006, 5:19:28 PM8/15/06
to
In message
<news:1155672827.9...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>
"JimboCat" <10313...@compuserve.com> enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>

<snip>

>> Melian, with the foreknowledge of the Ainur, tells Galadriel

[...]


>> doom greater than my power shall send him
[...]

>> The sense I get is that of 'doom ordained (and backed) by one
>> whose power is' -- most likely referring to Beren's doom as
>> being part of Eru's design.
>
> I disagree. I think that "Doom" trumps "Power" in the
> Tolkienverse.

I am not sure entirely what you mean, but I get the impression that
you're implying that doom is something that can exist in its own
right and, more importantly, come into existence without design?

If so, I am unsure what to say.

In the case of Fëanor, he does seem, to a large extent, to bring his
doom over himself, although with much help from Melkor. I am tempted
to suggest that Fëanor's fate was not so much a 'doom' in the sense
used here, but rather the result of opposing forces fighting inside
him.

But for both Beren and the children of Hurin, I will argue that their
dooms are definitely ordained by agencies outside themselves. For
Beren his doom is, IMO, most likely ordained by Eru, whereas the
doom, or curse, of the children of Hurin was the work of Morgoth.


Part of the problem my lie in the tension between the pagan
mythological narrative tradition of the Silm, and the underlying
Christian ethic. In the pagan mythologies it is a recurring motive
that the 'doom', 'fate' or 'luck' of a man cannot be altered even by
the gods, whereas in Silm this narrative tradition has to co-exist
with Eru's statement that "nor can any alter the music in my
despite."

This creates, for me, the idea that the 'doom', 'fate' or 'luck' is
something that is, in a way, created or ordained by some entity
(whether the individual Hobbit creating his own doom or Eru ordaining
Beren's doom), but that is about as far as I can comfortably say that
I 'believe' that it worked (at least in the sense of 'this works for
me'). I cannot say in which way Beren's doom was greater than
Melian's power, nor how it came to be greater, but I do think that
her choice of words imply that not all dooms would be greater than
her power.

> It may sometimes make sense to explain why doom does trump power
> in terms of doom deriving from Eru's plan,

Or from Eru, at least ;)

> but often I think it does not: Feanor's doom was of a different
> origin (in his own tragic flaw), as was Turin's.

Yes, I agree. Turin's doom, however, also had a clear origin
(Morgoth), though the same, as I said above, is not the case for
Fëanor's fate (was that a 'doom' as such, before he was exiled from
Valinor and came under the Doom of the Noldor?)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start.
- /Interesting Times/ (Terry Pratchett)

JimboCat

unread,
Aug 16, 2006, 4:10:14 PM8/16/06
to
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

>> I disagree. I think that "Doom" trumps "Power" in the
>> Tolkienverse.
>
>I am not sure entirely what you mean, but I get the impression that
>you're implying that doom is something that can exist in its own
>right and, more importantly, come into existence without design?

Hmmm, now you mention it, I'm not quite sure what I was saying, either!
"Doom exists in its own right" -- yes, that seems right to me. But
"comes into existence without design" does not ring so true. I think
"design" is a red herring. Arda is a mix of Design (the Music) and
Surprise (the effects of Free Will, especially when exercised by Men).
Yet, there is the quote from Eru "nor can any alter the music in my
despite", and the one from the Narrator "[Men] . . . have a virtue to
shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the
Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else".

>This creates, for me, the idea that the 'doom', 'fate' or 'luck' is
>something that is, in a way, created or ordained by some entity
>(whether the individual Hobbit creating his own doom or Eru ordaining
>Beren's doom), but that is about as far as I can comfortably say that
>I 'believe' that it worked

I think I believe something quite different: for me, "doom" is
essentially story-external. It is something inserted by the author for
narrative, artistic reasons. But that doesn't explain too well how the
characters inside the story can perceive it!

I'm thinking now that we simply have to accept the contradiction. If
Arda encounters a "divide by cucumber error" in consequence, well: Eru
can reboot.

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
Press any key... no, no, no, NOT THAT ONE!

Troels Forchhammer

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Aug 16, 2006, 5:58:27 PM8/16/06
to
In message
<news:1155759014....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>

"JimboCat" <10313...@compuserve.com> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> Hmmm, now you mention it, I'm not quite sure what I was saying,
> either! "Doom exists in its own right" -- yes, that seems right to
> me.

I'm reminded of the Norns of Norse mythology -- the goddesses of
fate. They decided the fate of every Man at the time of birth, but
afterwards, IIRC, they could not change this fate -- almost as if
they merely gave shape to something that already existed in it's own
right (the destiny, or 'doom', of the new-born child).

<www.luth.se/luth/present/sweden/history/gods/johannes/nornorna>

To some extent I get the same impression in Tolkien's writings, that
'doom' (at least at the level we're speaking of here -- the doom of
Beren, Turin, Fëanor etc.) comes across as both given (not /by/
anything, story-internally) and immutable, but at the same time
created and changeable.

> But "comes into existence without design" does not ring so
> true. I think "design" is a red herring.

Not intentionally so, but I see what you mean ;-)

> Arda is a mix of Design (the Music) and Surprise (the effects
> of Free Will, especially when exercised by Men).

I'd say /only/ when exercised by Men. Depending, of course, on whom
the surprise is for. Not even combining their efforts, the Valar
could understand all the Music, thus they could be surprised even by
events, the results of Free Will, that were nevertheless foretold in
the Music. On the other hand, I don't think that anything Men did was
able to surprise Eru.

> Yet, there is the quote from Eru "nor can any alter the music in
> my despite", and the one from the Narrator "[Men] . . . have a
> virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the
> world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all
> things else".

Precisely.

This duality is interesting. The ability of Men to shape their own
fate 'beyond the Music of the Ainur' was a gift from Eru, and hence,
even if this meant that they could change the Music (probably never
to any large degree anyway), it would not be in Eru's despite, as the
ability came from Him in the first place.

Still, we're caught, I think, partly in the old discussion of Free
Will in a deterministic (or semi-deterministic) universe, and partly
in the story-external needs of a universe that has to obey the
necessities of a good story ;-)

> I think I believe something quite different: for me, "doom" is
> essentially story-external. It is something inserted by the author
> for narrative, artistic reasons.

Oh, absolutely. No disagreement there.

> But that doesn't explain too well how the characters inside the
> story can perceive it!

Which was, of course, rather what I meant to ask. Melian's statement
certainly tells us that they did perceive it, and I think that my
question is more interesting if we look at the Ainur and see how they
might see it (the Children of Ilúvatar might not really catch the
finer details very well).

> I'm thinking now that we simply have to accept the contradiction.

I suppose that we do, though that won't stop me from trying to
understand better the relationship between the omnipotent/omniscient
God (Eru), the concept of 'doom' as well as the place of Free Will in
that picture . . .

> If Arda encounters a "divide by cucumber error" in consequence,
> well: Eru can reboot.

LOL!

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human
stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
- Albert Einstein

JimboCat

unread,
Aug 18, 2006, 3:32:35 PM8/18/06
to
Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>In message
><news:1155759014....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
>"JimboCat" <10313...@compuserve.com> enriched us with:
>> I think I believe something quite different: for me, "doom" is
>> essentially story-external. It is something inserted by the author
>> for narrative, artistic reasons.
>
>Oh, absolutely. No disagreement there.
>
>> But that doesn't explain too well how the characters inside the
>> story can perceive it!
>
>Which was, of course, rather what I meant to ask. Melian's statement
>certainly tells us that they did perceive it

Have you ever encountered the web comic "Triangle and Robert"? Not
everybody's cup of tea, but the characters (mostly they are drawn as
simple polygons: Triangle is a triangle and Robert is a rhombus) often
ponder just these sorts of subjects, and in fact have ongoing
conversations with the Cartoonist (who is, admittedly, often rather
confused and unhelpful).

http://home.comcast.net/~pshaughn/tandr.html
"Those who do not learn from the past strips are condemned to have no
clue what the present strips are about."

But how can the Eruhini (who do not communicate with the Author in any
story-internal sense) perceive the Doom he has laid on certain
characters? Well, how do they even perceive the Race of a stranger?
Tuor is said to resemble an Elf because of some sort of gleam in his
eye, just the same way Legolas appears to detect Elvish ancestry in the
Prince of Dol Amroth (no wonder nearly every artist has distinguished
Elves and Men by their ears instead: lots easier to recognize!).

This is a common problem in fiction, I think. If your characters have
abilities, senses, or even simply knowledge that is beyond our own, you
have to resort to various literary tricks to portray them. These tricks
don't have to really make sense, they just have to seem to at the
time...

>Not even combining their efforts, the Valar
>could understand all the Music, thus they could be surprised even by
>events, the results of Free Will, that were nevertheless foretold in
>the Music.

Yes: very good point.

>On the other hand, I don't think that anything Men did was
>able to surprise Eru.

I'd have to agree with that. They could do things that surprise the
Elves, or the Valar, or even the Author(!), but not Eru. Hmm, is that
story-internal or -external...

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"In the world of words the imagination is one of the forces of nature."
-- Wallace Stevens

Dirk Thierbach

unread,
Aug 24, 2006, 3:08:52 AM8/24/06
to
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:

> [...] which is given in the author's commentary to 'Athrabeth Finrod
> ah Andreth'.

I have seen this now several times, so I have to nitpick: That should
be /Athrabeth Finrod *an* Andreth/, "the Crossword (of) Finrod
to/for Andreth", i.e. the Discussion of Finrod with Andreth. "ah" is not
a preposition I recognize, and probably an OCR mistake :-)

- Dirk

Dirk Thierbach

unread,
Aug 24, 2006, 3:22:22 AM8/24/06
to
Michelle <mha...@nanc.com> wrote:
> I find Silmarillion chapter difficult to summarize, personally.
> Because they are so often written from a detached, historical
> perspective, they often already have a summarized feel to them.

I guess that's not too surprising, because CT probably had to summarize
his father's material often enough.

> The Silmarillion
> Chapter 22
> Of The Coming of the Men into the West

Are the chapters numbered differently in your edition of the SIL,
or is it just a typo? In my edition, it is chapter 17.

> At this point [Felagund] goes into their camp, picks up one of their


> own harps, and wakes them with music [3], which causes them to have
> visions of Aman, so at first they take him for a Vala.

What I find interesting here is that they are able to understand him,
even if they don't know the language: "and his Elvish speech was
interpreted in each mind according to its measure." And this telepathy
also works the other way around: "[...] and Felagund discovered also
that he could read in the minds of Men such thoughts as they wished to
reveal in speech, so that their words were easily interpreted."

IIRC this is the only time in the SIL where this ability is mentioned
explicitely.

> After Beor's people leave, the next sets of people start coming
> through, much to the irritation of the Green Elves.

Also interesting how Tolkien tries to "copy" the diverse migration
of peoples we know about in European history, though the timescale
seems a lot more compressed.

> [3] Music is woven so profoundly into Tolkien's universe. Not only as
> the foundation for it's creation, often as power in battles, but also
> as the basis for significant encounters of friendship and love. Music
> is the key for intelligence, creation, humanity and provides the first
> touch of understanding between good-hearted strangers.

And sometimes it seems that Tolkien thinks singing is really more
"primordeal" than speech, as when the Hobbits visit Tom: "The guests
became suddenly aware that they were singing merrily, as if it was
easier and more natural than talking."

- Dirk

Troels Forchhammer

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Aug 24, 2006, 3:52:17 PM8/24/06
to
In message
<news:2006082407085...@dthierbach.news.arcor.de> Dirk
Thierbach <dthie...@usenet.arcornews.de> enriched us with:

> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
>
>> [...] which is given in the author's commentary to 'Athrabeth
>> Finrod ah Andreth'.
>
> I have seen this now several times, so I have to nitpick: That
> should be /Athrabeth Finrod *an* Andreth/,

My /Morgoth's Ring/ clearly has "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" -- with
the subtitle "The Converse of Finrod and Andreth".

The title is in Sindarin, if that helps you, "ah" is listed in the
Dragon Flame dictionary, with an article explaining how it is confirmed
in VT43 that 'ah' is a conjunction etymologically related to 'a' and
'ar' (unfortunately not one of the VT numbers that I have, so I can't
quote the etymology).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Knowing what
thou knowest not
is in a sense
omniscience
- Piet Hein, /Omniscience/

Dirk Thierbach

unread,
Aug 25, 2006, 2:56:45 AM8/25/06
to
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
> My /Morgoth's Ring/ clearly has "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" -- with
> the subtitle "The Converse of Finrod and Andreth".

I stand corrected.

> The title is in Sindarin, if that helps you, "ah" is listed in the
> Dragon Flame dictionary,

What's the Dragon Flame dictionary? (Yes, I'll google next time I
am online ...)

> with an article explaining how it is confirmed in VT43 that 'ah' is
> a conjunction etymologically related to 'a' and 'ar' (unfortunately
> not one of the VT numbers that I have, so I can't quote the
> etymology).

That's quite surprising -- maybe my feeling for Sindarin isn't very
good, but "ah" just looks plain wrong :-) Especially when one could
just use "ar", if they are related anyway.

- Dirk


Troels Forchhammer

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Aug 25, 2006, 4:22:43 PM8/25/06
to
In message
<news:2006082506564...@dthierbach.news.arcor.de> Dirk

Thierbach <dthie...@usenet.arcornews.de> enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
>>

<snip>

> What's the Dragon Flame dictionary? (Yes, I'll google next time I
> am online ...)

It's a freeware Sindarin dictionary (the Windows/Linux version -- the
Mac version is called Hesperides):
<http://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/sindar/downloads.html>

Actually, as far as I understand it, "Dragon Flame" is the
application, and it contains a number of dictionaries (complying to
some standard). It's a very nice application, IMO.

The website also has Gothic and Anglo-saxon dictionaries (or, perhaps
rather, glossaries).


[Using 'ah' as the conjunction in Sindarin]

>> with an article explaining how it is confirmed in VT43 that 'ah'
>> is a conjunction etymologically related to 'a' and 'ar'
>> (unfortunately not one of the VT numbers that I have, so I can't
>> quote the etymology).
>
> That's quite surprising -- maybe my feeling for Sindarin isn't
> very good, but "ah" just looks plain wrong :-) Especially when one
> could just use "ar", if they are related anyway.

;-)

The entry in Dragon Flame (Hiswelókë) for 'a' has the following
reference:
See ah for the form that this conjunction might take
before a vowel # OS *ar (AR1)
[Hiswelókë's Sindarin dictionary (Edition 1.6, Lexicon 0.993)]

Don't ask me (and please don't hurt the messenger <GG>) -- my
knowledge of Sindarin is very limited (I have, at various times,
looked a bit into Quenya, though never actually finishing
Fauskanger's "Quenya Course", but Sindarin remains a mystery).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Smile
a while
ere day
is done
and all
your gall
will soon
be gone.

Michelle

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Sep 4, 2006, 9:46:06 PM9/4/06
to

Dirk Thierbach wrote:
> Michelle <mha...@nanc.com> wrote:
>

> IIRC this is the only time in the SIL where this ability is mentioned
> explicitely.

Telepathy is mentioned in LOTR again, though, but as a delibrate method
of communication amongst the Wise.

> And sometimes it seems that Tolkien thinks singing is really more
> "primordeal" than speech, as when the Hobbits visit Tom: "The guests
> became suddenly aware that they were singing merrily, as if it was
> easier and more natural than talking."

True! I had forgotten that example.

Michelle
Flutist

P.S. My computer needs a new hard drive, so I am still MIA.

Huan the hound

unread,
Sep 6, 2006, 11:42:44 AM9/6/06
to
On 2006-08-12, Michelle <mha...@nanc.com> wrote in
<1155422547.4...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>:
[snip]

> [2] Music as the mark of sentience and culture is always important in
> Tolkien (see note 3) and this reference to the fact that the Green
> Elves of this land do not sing by night indicates they have grown so
> cautious as to lose something precious - at least it has always
> seemed so to me.
[snip]

I've been wondering about the description of Green Elves from this
chapter. They don't sing at night, and light no fires. Furthermore,
they don't like Men because they hunt and chop down trees.

Does this mean the the Elves don't want another group also hunting and
chopping down trees? Or that they don't want ANY hunting or chopping of
trees? If it is the latter, combine that with no fire and I have to
wonder what the Green Elves did with all their time in the forest.

--
Huan, the hound of Valinor

Phlip

unread,
Sep 6, 2006, 11:54:03 AM9/6/06
to
Huan the hound wrote:

> Does this mean the the Elves don't want another group also hunting and
> chopping down trees? Or that they don't want ANY hunting or chopping of
> trees? If it is the latter, combine that with no fire and I have to
> wonder what the Green Elves did with all their time in the forest.

It sounds like the Elves closest to the wild East had perfected a cryptic
civilization. Humans could roam through their forest and simply never detect
them.

Compare this to the other Eldar cultures, who hid in caves, or behind stone.

The Green Elves can't go on hiding from the humans; they are tired of
responding to a secret birdcall and bugging out, just because humans are
bumbling through. Further, the random Human element is increasing the odds a
real enemy notices the Eldar. Humans are changing the tracks through the
woods, they are cutting down trees to form little temporary villages, and so
on.

The Elves declare they are un-friends, because just being friendly, within
their limits, is too high-risk and exhausting!

nfw

unread,
Sep 6, 2006, 4:10:28 PM9/6/06
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Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message
> <news:1155759014....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
> "JimboCat" <10313...@compuserve.com> enriched us with:
> > Arda is a mix of Design (the Music) and Surprise (the effects
> > of Free Will, especially when exercised by Men).
>
> I'd say /only/ when exercised by Men. Depending, of course, on whom
> the surprise is for. Not even combining their efforts, the Valar
> could understand all the Music, thus they could be surprised even by
> events, the results of Free Will, that were nevertheless foretold in
> the Music. On the other hand, I don't think that anything Men did was
> able to surprise Eru.

The concept of Surprise implies the existence of Time, which unexists
in Eru's halls. ;-)

> > Yet, there is the quote from Eru "nor can any alter the music in
> > my despite", and the one from the Narrator "[Men] . . . have a
> > virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the
> > world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all
> > things else".
>
> Precisely.
>
> This duality is interesting. The ability of Men to shape their own
> fate 'beyond the Music of the Ainur' was a gift from Eru, and hence,
> even if this meant that they could change the Music (probably never
> to any large degree anyway), it would not be in Eru's despite, as the
> ability came from Him in the first place.

To me, "beyond the Music" unmeans "/altering/ the Music". Could we
interprete these words as "beyond /Time/" or "beyond /Arda/", which
then have men able to shape their destiny out of Arda, out of Time?
Thus the fate they shape is not their lives, but what is beyond, after
death, the Gift (keeping with the original mythology). Quite christian
indeed!

--
nfw

Shanahan

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Sep 6, 2006, 9:59:46 PM9/6/06
to
Huan the hound wrote:
> On 2006-08-12, Michelle <mha...@nanc.com> wrote in
> <1155422547.4...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>:
> [snip]
>> [2] Music as the mark of sentience and culture is always important
>> in Tolkien (see note 3) and this reference to the fact that the Green
>> Elves of this land do not sing by night indicates they have grown so
>> cautious as to lose something precious - at least it has always
>> seemed so to me.
<snip>
Definitely!

> Does this mean the the Elves don't want another group also hunting and
> chopping down trees? Or that they don't want ANY hunting or chopping
> of trees? If it is the latter, combine that with no fire and I have
> to wonder what the Green Elves did with all their time in the forest.

They *talked* to the trees, of course! Maybe they were the ones who
taught the Ents to speak...<g> Or, recall Voronwė's reminiscence to
Tuor about being lost in wonder in the meads of flowers. Elves can spend
an awful long time just standing and breathing. (A skill Western man
should cultivate.) Then they made songs about it all. Then, they made
new words to make the songs even better. And then, they went back to the
trees and taught them the new words they'd created, and learned the new
words the trees had come up with in the meantime...

- Ciaran S.
----------------------------------------------
"I'm not lurking! I'm hanging about.
It's a whole 'nother vibe."
- BtVS


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