Did Aragorn commmit suicide?
Dan Leach
Turin/Hurin and related sadness) and it got me thinking, was what Aragon did
at the end of his life suicide? It isn't explained in great detail but he
does seem to decide to take his own life. Now Tolkien being catholic would
have been very much against suicide in general, so is this more a case of
choosing your time of death when your are close anyway than suicide?
AC
It was considered the gift of Man to depart Arda. The gift of unfallen man
was to do so before the hroa (body) had deteriorated. It was a sign of the
pleasure that Eru and the Valar had in the Edain that they gave them back
that gift of departing of their own free will, and it was a sign of the
failure of the Numenoreans that they began, when the Shadow fell upon them,
to cling to every last moment of life.
Suicide, in that context, would be the taking of your own life before the
fea (body) was ready to depart the hroa. The gift that Aragorn was given
was to leave when it was time, rather than staying until he was in dotage.
Dan Leach
allowing the fea to depart, but to me it still seems like at a point in time
a decision has to be made in order for this action to happen. Its that
action of deciding that makes me think of suicide in the normal sense i
suppose
Robert Kolker
The active taking of one's own life is not the same is one permitting
his spirt to depart in peace. A time will come for all of us when we
simply we either let go, with some grace, or life will be torn from us
despite our grief and protest. It is better to go along quietly, if it
is truly the right time to go.
Bob Kolker
>
>
Drude
says...
disease who decides to end it... they are making the decision to leave
the life before they become infirm or unable to live the life they would
like to live. I see no difference.
I think what's going on here is that there is a 'built-in' attitude
(especially in North America) that suicide is a horrible act. I think
that is due to a lot of religious teachings and attitudes about 'going
to hell' for taking one's own life.
I think with a more realistic and humanistic attitude (in other words,
removing religion from the equation), suicide is a viable option for
those suffering, ill or simply no longer wanting to live their life.
Suicide, in a rational society, should not be a sin. It would be a
protected personal right.
I do, personally, believe that Aragorn committed suicide. He made the
conscious decision to leave this life and 'move on'. But, whether that
is a negative or positive thing will depend on your personal beliefs.
-Drude
AC
You have to look at this way. Eru built the desire of the fea of a Man to
leave the hroa. In the unfallen state, this was a willing surrender of the
fea. When Men fell, this grace was withdrawn, and it was a reward for the
service of their ancestors in the struggle against Morgoth that the
Numenoreans were given not only extended lives but the grace of choosing the
hour of their death.
This didn't mean that a Numenorean would be distraught, and rather than
jumping off the roof of his home, would lay down and decide to die, which
would, as I understand the notion, be a violation of the gift of Eru to Men.
Rather it meant that a Numenorean would not seek to prolong his life at the
expense of both fea and hroa, and would willingly surrender when that time
for the fea to seek beyond Arda as Eru intended.
When the Shadow fell on the Numenoreans, they became obsessed with
immortality, and consequently with death. They had ceased to have faith in
Eru, and thus that grace was slowly withdrawn. Now they sought to extend
their lives, even if it meant that they entered a state of dotage or
senility. They could not deny the Gift, they could but delay it a little,
and a great cost.
Aragorn was allowed that grace again, that right to decide the hour of his
passing, before he became enfeebled and senile. It was a great honor to be
given to him, who called himself the "last of the Numenoreans", and perhaps
fitting that he should be permitted this. I don't think there's anything
here that goes against Catholic theology. Clearly his release of life was
an act of faith that many of his ancestors had been unwilling to make.
AC
Drude <br...@shaw.com> wrote:
>
> I do, personally, believe that Aragorn committed suicide. He made the
> conscious decision to leave this life and 'move on'. But, whether that
> is a negative or positive thing will depend on your personal beliefs.
There is a point in this about how it fits with JRRT's own faith. I do not
think that Aragorn's surrendering his life, or apparently all the Numenorean
kings before the Shadow fell doing the same thing. This seems to have been
a primordial grace given to Men that was lost in their rebellion. Aragorn
isn't ending his life prematurely, but simply not resisting the desire of
the fea to leave for parts unknown.
It is not the same act as Denethor burning himself alive, and thus I don't
see there being any issue as far as Aragorn's salvation in the Catholic
sense. Clearly JRRT thought suicide was wrong, as Gandalf tells Denethor.
Aragorn is not some much choosing the hour of his passing as simply not
fighting the Gift of Men. It may be a fine line, but I think it's an
important one in understanding that grace given to the Numenoreans, and how
they perverted and twisted it when the Shadow fell upon them.
Robert Kolker
> Suicide, in a rational society, should not be a sin. It would be a
> protected personal right.
Amen! The right to die at a time of one's choosing is as precious as the
right to be let alone in order to live.
>
> I do, personally, believe that Aragorn committed suicide. He made the
> conscious decision to leave this life and 'move on'. But, whether that
> is a negative or positive thing will depend on your personal beliefs.
Giving up the ghost (so to speak) is not quite the same as blowing one's
brains out. But soft! We are in substantial agreement.
Bob Kolker
Robert Kolker
>
> You have to look at this way. Eru built the desire of the fea of a Man to
> leave the hroa. In the unfallen state, this was a willing surrender of the
> fea. When Men fell, this grace was withdrawn, and it was a reward for the
> service of their ancestors in the struggle against Morgoth that the
> Numenoreans were given not only extended lives but the grace of choosing the
> hour of their death.
Within limits. Numernoreans could not defer this grace indefinitely.
Either they let forth their spirit at a good time, or their bodies would
crumble and perish and the spirit go forth anyhow. They could partake of
this grace, gracefully or be evicted from their dying bodies perforce.
Bob Kolker
Derek Broughton
> Even Catholics do not believe that a person should stay alive or be kept
> alive when there is no chance for a real human life.
In fact, the Schiavo case has caused some rifts in the Catholic church,
because the Vatican has always maintained that a person's life need not be
maintained by medical means - now statements contradicting that are being
issued from the Vatican, and American bishops are disagreeing.
--
derek
Christopher Kreuzer
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:58:05 GMT,
> Drude <br...@shaw.com> wrote:
>>
>> I do, personally, believe that Aragorn committed suicide. He made
>> the conscious decision to leave this life and 'move on'. But,
>> whether that is a negative or positive thing will depend on your
>> personal beliefs.
>
> There is a point in this about how it fits with JRRT's own faith. I
> do not think that Aragorn's surrendering his life, or apparently all
> the Numenorean kings before the Shadow fell doing the same thing.
> This seems to have been a primordial grace given to Men that was lost
> in their rebellion. Aragorn isn't ending his life prematurely, but
> simply not resisting the desire of the fea to leave for parts unknown.
You could even say he is being 'called' by Eru. It is a very spiritual
thing that I wouldn't claim to understand.
> It is not the same act as Denethor burning himself alive
I agree. Denethor is clearly trying to avoid pain and death in the rest
of his life, which he sees to be one of slavitude and torment under
Sauron or his servants. He lost faith (or estel) that things would be OK
in the end.
> and thus I don't see there being any issue as far as Aragorn's
salvation
> in the Catholic sense. Clearly JRRT thought suicide was wrong, as
> Gandalf tells Denethor. Aragorn is not some much choosing the hour
> of his passing as simply not fighting the Gift of Men. It may be a
fine
> line, but I think it's an important one in understanding that grace
> given to the Numenoreans, and how they perverted and twisted it when
> the Shadow fell upon them.
Yes. And what about Arwen.
Did she (in the end) depart willingly?
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Christopher Kreuzer
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:01:00 +0100,
> Dan Leach <danl...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>> Thanks for both of your replies, i see what you mean with the gift
>> and allowing the fea to depart, but to me it still seems like at a
>> point in time a decision has to be made in order for this action to
>> happen. Its that action of deciding that makes me think of suicide
>> in the normal sense i suppose
>
> You have to look at this way. Eru built the desire of the fea of a
> Man to leave the hroa. In the unfallen state, this was a willing
> surrender of the fea. When Men fell, this grace was withdrawn, and
> it was a reward for the service of their ancestors in the struggle
> against Morgoth that the Numenoreans were given not only extended
> lives but the grace of choosing the hour of their death.
>
> This didn't mean that a Numenorean would be distraught, and rather
> than jumping off the roof of his home, would lay down and decide to
> die, which would, as I understand the notion, be a violation of the
> gift of Eru to Men. Rather it meant that a Numenorean would not seek
> to prolong his life at the expense of both fea and hroa, and would
> willingly surrender when that time for the fea to seek beyond Arda as
> Eru intended.
Which reminds me of the case of Miriel. She did just lie down and die,
when really, she might have carried on. I know Elves are different, but
was this considered bad? This case might relate more to the right-to-die
cases in our world.
> When the Shadow fell on the Numenoreans, they became obsessed with
> immortality, and consequently with death. They had ceased to have
> faith in Eru, and thus that grace was slowly withdrawn. Now they
> sought to extend their lives, even if it meant that they entered a
> state of dotage or senility. They could not deny the Gift, they
> could but delay it a little, and a great cost.
>
> Aragorn was allowed that grace again, that right to decide the hour
> of his passing, before he became enfeebled and senile. It was a
> great honor to be given to him, who called himself the "last of the
> Numenoreans", and perhaps fitting that he should be permitted this.
> I don't think there's anything here that goes against Catholic
> theology. Clearly his release of life was an act of faith that many
> of his ancestors had been unwilling to make.
Well said. Great explanation.
AC
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> and thus I don't see there being any issue as far as Aragorn's
> salvation
>> in the Catholic sense. Clearly JRRT thought suicide was wrong, as
>> Gandalf tells Denethor. Aragorn is not some much choosing the hour
>> of his passing as simply not fighting the Gift of Men. It may be a
> fine
>> line, but I think it's an important one in understanding that grace
>> given to the Numenoreans, and how they perverted and twisted it when
>> the Shadow fell upon them.
>
> Yes. And what about Arwen.
>
> Did she (in the end) depart willingly?
Her's is a sadder and possibly messier affair. She departs of her own
accord, certainly, but not in the peaceful and dignified fashion of a
Numenorean King. There's something untidy about her passing.
AC
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Which reminds me of the case of Miriel. She did just lie down and die,
> when really, she might have carried on. I know Elves are different, but
> was this considered bad? This case might relate more to the right-to-die
> cases in our world.
It seems in Miriel's case that the exact opposite occured as when Aragorn
died. The Elvish fea exists as long as Arda does, and it is not natural
that one of the Firstborn would seek release from their body. As is the
case with the Numenoreans seeking to overcome death, or at least to postpone
it, Miriel's abandoning her hroa was ultimately the result of Arda Marred.
Flame of the West
> I think with a more realistic and humanistic attitude (in other words,
> removing religion from the equation), suicide is a viable option for
> those suffering, ill or simply no longer wanting to live their life.
>
<snip>
>
> I do, personally, believe that Aragorn committed suicide.
Your wish to "remove religion from the equation" is why you
don't understand Tolkien. And why you don't see the difference
between taking one's own life and "giving back the gift."
You don't have to agree with Tolkien's Catholicism, but
you've got to understand it to understand what Aragorn
was doing.
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
Flame of the West
> It seems in Miriel's case that the exact opposite occured as when Aragorn
> died. The Elvish fea exists as long as Arda does, and it is not natural
> that one of the Firstborn would seek release from their body. As is the
> case with the Numenoreans seeking to overcome death, or at least to postpone
> it, Miriel's abandoning her hroa was ultimately the result of Arda Marred.
Although Miriel lived and died in the First Age, she has never ever
been equalled as a champion whiner. All she ever did was whine about
how very tired she was.
Christopher Kreuzer
> AC wrote:
>
>> It seems in Miriel's case that the exact opposite occured as when
>> Aragorn died. The Elvish fea exists as long as Arda does, and it is
>> not natural that one of the Firstborn would seek release from their
>> body. As is the case with the Numenoreans seeking to overcome
>> death, or at least to postpone it, Miriel's abandoning her hroa was
>> ultimately the result of Arda Marred.
How would things have been different in Arda Unmarred?
> Although Miriel lived and died in the First Age, she has never ever
> been equalled as a champion whiner. All she ever did was whine about
> how very tired she was.
She also refused to accept any blame:
"...I would weep, if I were not so weary. But hold me blameless in this,
and in all that may come after."
I realise that both those comments are jokes. But seriously, Miriel does
seem to be blameless and have a serious case for arguing that she should
be allowed to die:
"But in the bearing of her son Miriel was consumed in spirit and body;
and after his birth she yearned for release from the labours of living."
I don't know why, but this, and the case of Aragorn that started this
thread, seem to me to be examples of the right-to-die debate (or the
right-to-live debate - either the glass is half-full or half-empty).
Which is very topical at the moment with the Schiavo case that is in the
news.
AC
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Flame of the West <jsol...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> AC wrote:
>>
>>> It seems in Miriel's case that the exact opposite occured as when
>>> Aragorn died. The Elvish fea exists as long as Arda does, and it is
>>> not natural that one of the Firstborn would seek release from their
>>> body. As is the case with the Numenoreans seeking to overcome
>>> death, or at least to postpone it, Miriel's abandoning her hroa was
>>> ultimately the result of Arda Marred.
>
> How would things have been different in Arda Unmarred?
Well, it's been a while since I delved into the appropriate section in
Morgoth's Ring, but apparently Miriel's choice created some very big
problems for the Valar and Finwe. The long and the short of this long and
interesting debate is that the Valar saw Miriel's desire to leave her body
as the product of Arda Marred, a desire that simply was not natural to the
First Born.
>
>> Although Miriel lived and died in the First Age, she has never ever
>> been equalled as a champion whiner. All she ever did was whine about
>> how very tired she was.
>
> She also refused to accept any blame:
>
> "...I would weep, if I were not so weary. But hold me blameless in this,
> and in all that may come after."
>
> I realise that both those comments are jokes. But seriously, Miriel does
> seem to be blameless and have a serious case for arguing that she should
> be allowed to die:
>
> "But in the bearing of her son Miriel was consumed in spirit and body;
> and after his birth she yearned for release from the labours of living."
>
> I don't know why, but this, and the case of Aragorn that started this
> thread, seem to me to be examples of the right-to-die debate (or the
> right-to-live debate - either the glass is half-full or half-empty).
> Which is very topical at the moment with the Schiavo case that is in the
> news.
I'm going to avoid any news-topical portions of this as best I can because
this is a very hot-button issue and I respect most folks here far too much
to go down that path.
In Miriel's case, I think she was blameless, even though the abandoning of
her body and remaining perpetually as a houseless fea in Mandos was most
certainly against the nature of the First Born as Eru had made them. As I
said above, the Valar deemed the circumstances as some portion of Arda
Marred entering the Undying Lands. Just as it was wrong for the Numenoreans
to try to prevent death (and thus deny the Gift of Eru to them), it was
wrong that Miriel should feel the desire to leave her body in violation of
what should have been her basic nature.
In Miriel's case things are more complex. The reason that she ultimately
had to remain forever in Mandos was that Finwe wished to have more children,
and thus had to remarry. This, too, was a violation of the basic nature of
the First Born, that as beings whose existence was bound to Arda persisted
as long as Arda did, an Elf could not have two spouses. Thus the only
solution the Valar could come up with was to say that Finwe could only
remarry if Miriel remained in Mandos.
In the Valar's eyes, Miriel's lack of desire to remain embodied and the
consequences of that strange wish was a shadow of Arda Marred in the Undying
Lands. In the long run, the consequences were enormous; the divisions that
occurred in the Noldor, the Kinslaying, the Noldorin Exile, the permanent
removal of Feanor and his house from the kingship of the Noldor, the union
of Tuor and Idril and the birth of Earendil, Earendil's quest to the Undying
Lands on behalf of the Free Peoples battling Morgoth, the foundation of
Numenor with Elros as its king and the line of the kings of Men, the
foundation of Eregion by the Noldor that chose remain behind after the War
of Wrath and the forging of the Rings of Power.
This is just to name a few of the consequences of Miriel's desire to be
released from life.
Robert Kolker
> Yes. And what about Arwen.
>
> Did she (in the end) depart willingly?
She had no choice. She became mortal. I think she was so sorrowful she
surrender up her life. That's o.k.
Bob Kolker
Robert Kolker
>
> Her's is a sadder and possibly messier affair. She departs of her own
> accord, certainly, but not in the peaceful and dignified fashion of a
> Numenorean King. There's something untidy about her passing.
Being half elven she did not understand the Gift of Eru to Men, or at
least she did not understand until Aragorn gave up his life. If you
recall, she begged him to stay longer and he very patiently explained to
her what the nature of the Gift was. It is really a double gift.
1. To go beyond the bounds of Arda after death. The Elves did not get
this grace, nor do the Valar for that matter.
2. To go at a time of choice, not forced by bodily and mental infirmity.
When Arwan finally was getting a glimmer of this, she said at long last
she understood. Understood yes, accepted --- not quite.
Bob Kolker
>
Robert Kolker
> Although Miriel lived and died in the First Age, she has never ever
> been equalled as a champion whiner. All she ever did was whine about
> how very tired she was.
Feanor took all of her Life Force. Had Feanor been an ordinary Elf this
would not have happened. Feanor was a special case, therfore so was
Miriel. Miriel said that Feanor dtained enough life force out her it
would have sufficed for several children. She never had another child.
Bob Kolker
Stan Brown
>Although Miriel lived and died in the First Age, she has never ever
>been equalled as a champion whiner. All she ever did was whine about
>how very tired she was.
And Bernadette Peters later sang her song in /Blazing Saddles/ :-)
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
R. Dan Henry
<jsol...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Although Miriel lived and died in the First Age, she has never ever
>been equalled as a champion whiner.
In nothing can the lesser children of these days compare with those
great ones of the First Age.
Doesn't stop folk from trying, however.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
the softrat
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>"Flame of the West" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>Although Miriel lived and died in the First Age, she has never ever
>>been equalled as a champion whiner. All she ever did was whine about
>>how very tired she was.
>
>And Bernadette Peters later sang her song in /Blazing Saddles/ :-)
That WASN'T Bernadette Peters!! It was Madeline Kahn!!!!
(Jeez!)
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
I love defenceless animals, especially in a good gravy.
Robert J. Kolker
> "Flame of the West" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>
>>Although Miriel lived and died in the First Age, she has never ever
>>been equalled as a champion whiner. All she ever did was whine about
>>how very tired she was.
>
>
> And Bernadette Peters later sang her song in /Blazing Saddles/ :-)
No, no, no! It was the late Madeline Kahn who played Lili Von Shtupp.
That was the most brilliant sendup of that Nazi tart, Marlene Dietrich,
I have ever seen. The only funnier Mel Brooks spoof I have seen is
-Young Frankenstein-. Frankesteen, dammit! My name is Frankensteen!
Bob Kolker
Flame of the West
> The long and the short of this long and
> interesting debate is that the Valar saw Miriel's desire to leave her body
> as the product of Arda Marred, a desire that simply was not natural to the
> First Born.
It always struck me as rather un-Elvish.
Aris Katsaris
"Drude" <br...@shaw.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cb5da046ac4e7c498979b@shawnews...
> disease who decides to end it... they are making the decision to leave
> the life before they become infirm or unable to live the life they would
> like to live. I see no difference.
>
> I think what's going on here is that there is a 'built-in' attitude
> (especially in North America) that suicide is a horrible act. I think
> that is due to a lot of religious teachings and attitudes about 'going
> to hell' for taking one's own life.
Ofcourse it's a religious thing.
> I think with a more realistic and humanistic attitude (in other words,
> removing religion from the equation), suicide is a viable option for
> those suffering, ill or simply no longer wanting to live their life.
>
> Suicide, in a rational society, should not be a sin. It would be a
> protected personal right.
You can't include the idea of sin without intruding religion. Authority
was not given to Denethor to end his life -- authority *was* given
to Aragorn to surrender his own spirit however. That's part of why
the former is a sin according to Tolkien's worldview and the latter
is not.
> I do, personally, believe that Aragorn committed suicide.
As long as you understand that what Aragorn was doing wasn't
perceived by him or by Tolkien as suicide. For starters the motivations
were different. Aragorn is surrendering his spirit in perfect faith and
trust, in "estel" -- he's not fleeing life, he's giving himself to Eru and
he can do so in an act of will.
Denethor on the other hand is killing himself in despair.
-Aris Katsaris
Stan Brown
>On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:54:48 -0500, Stan Brown
><the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>>"Flame of the West" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>>Although Miriel lived and died in the First Age, she has never ever
>>>been equalled as a champion whiner. All she ever did was whine about
>>>how very tired she was.
>>
>>And Bernadette Peters later sang her song in /Blazing Saddles/ :-)
>
>That WASN'T Bernadette Peters!! It was Madeline Kahn!!!!
>
>(Jeez!)
Oh gosh, I always get those two mixed up -- like Fernando Lamas and
Ricardo Montalban (as Rhoda's mother Ida [Nancy Walker] said.)
Stan Brown
>No, no, no! It was the late Madeline Kahn who played Lili Von Shtupp.
>That was the most brilliant sendup of that Nazi tart, Marlene Dietrich,
>I have ever seen. The only funnier Mel Brooks spoof I have seen is
>-Young Frankenstein-. Frankesteen, dammit! My name is Frankensteen!
Just three nights ago, I used "My grandfather's work was doo-doo!"
in class, after ensuring that most of them had seen YF: "If you
don't have a good random sample, your conclusions will be doo-doo."
But please! "Nazi tart"? See her in /Witness for the Prosecution/
and you'll change your mind. Brilliant performance in a beautifully
written film, with Charles Laughton to boot.
John W. Kennedy
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
>> "Flame of the West" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>
>>> Although Miriel lived and died in the First Age, she has never ever
>>> been equalled as a champion whiner. All she ever did was whine about
>>> how very tired she was.
>>
>>
>>
>> And Bernadette Peters later sang her song in /Blazing Saddles/ :-)
>
>
> No, no, no! It was the late Madeline Kahn who played Lili Von Shtupp.
> That was the most brilliant sendup of that Nazi tart, Marlene Dietrich,
For shame!
She was a strong opponent of the Nazis who became a US citizen in 1937,
and contributed more to the American war effort than most native-born US
stars did.
--
John W. Kennedy
"Give up vows and dogmas, and fixed things, and you may grow like That.
...you may come to think a blow bad, because it hurts, and not because
it humiliates. You may come to think murder wrong, because it is
violent, and not because it is unjust."
-- G. K. Chesterton. "The Ball and the Cross"
Stan Brown
>As long as you understand that what Aragorn was doing wasn't
>perceived by him or by Tolkien as suicide. For starters the motivations
>were different. Aragorn is surrendering his spirit in perfect faith and
>trust, in "estel" -- he's not fleeing life, he's giving himself to Eru and
>he can do so in an act of will.
Granted that it wasn't suicide, how specifically do you think he
knew it was "time". (I realize I'm asking for speculation here.)
Wouldn't it be awfully embarrassing to lie down and wait for days,
tossing and turning, and then eventually have to get up and go on
with the business of living?
The too-little-known move /The Rapture/ actully deals with this
theme. Sharon believes she has seen a sign from God to go into the
desert and be taken by him with her little girl, but days and weeks
go by and nothing happens.
Robert J. Kolker
>
> But please! "Nazi tart"? See her in /Witness for the Prosecution/
> and you'll change your mind. Brilliant performance in a beautifully
> written film, with Charles Laughton to boot.
As Sam Kinison would say -- SHE'S AN ACTRESS!. In her earlier days she
had some sympathy for the Narzis. After they lost the war, surprise,
surprise her attitude apparently changed. But if you must, delete the
word "Nazi" but leave in "tart". She was a real lulu. She batted from
both sides of the plate, if you catch my drift.
Bob Kolker
>
Mervian
Ο "Aris Katsaris" <kats...@gmail.com> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:d2kkac$4ai$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> As long as you understand that what Aragorn was doing wasn't
> perceived by him or by Tolkien as suicide. For starters the motivations
> were different. Aragorn is surrendering his spirit in perfect faith and
> trust, in "estel" -- he's not fleeing life, he's giving himself to Eru and
> he can do so in an act of will.
Kind of what the Pope is doing right now... Suicide?
M
Robert J. Kolker
>
>
> Kind of what the Pope is doing right now... Suicide?
Not really. He is just on old man ebbing away. If any of us live long
enough that is what will happen to us.
Bob Kolker
John W. Kennedy
You are a liar, sir!
--
John W. Kennedy
"Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne
of the kingdom of idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts"
-- J. Michael Straczynski. "Babylon 5", "Ceremonies of Light and Dark"
Flame of the West
> Kind of what the Pope is doing right now... Suicide?
Judging from your return address of <a...@where.net> and
the offensive stupidity of your content, it's obvious
you're a troll. This crumb is all I'm going to feed you.
Jon Hall
Flame of the West <jsol...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Mervian wrote:
>
> > Kind of what the Pope is doing right now...
Just done it.
Jon.
Robert J. Kolker
> I saw a thread about arda and suicide (I think it was a thread on
> Turin/Hurin and related sadness) and it got me thinking, was what Aragon did
> at the end of his life suicide? It isn't explained in great detail but he
> does seem to decide to take his own life. Now Tolkien being catholic would
> have been very much against suicide in general, so is this more a case of
> choosing your time of death when your are close anyway than suicide?
Aragorn felt his end was not that far off.
1. He was past his prime physically.
2. His son was full ripe for kingship.
So Aragorn avoids the ignomy of physical decrepitude and senility and at
the same time assures the best rulership for his people. That is a very
classy thing to do. Rather than hold on to the bitter end (which is
futile) and make things bad for his people by egotistically clinging on
to the last physically possible minute, he does a kingly and graceful
exist. That must have been what Eru/Illuvatar had in mind when he gave
Man the Gift or Mortality. Even his lad Arwen did not understand what
the Gift was all about and the last thing that Aragron told her was not
to fail the finaly test by giving into despair at his parting.
Essentially he said to Arawn --- have faith (or trust). If all Men had
that trust in Eru's plan they never would have fallen into Darkness. It
was fear of death that really screwed the race of Men up.
Bob Kolker
>
>
R. Dan Henry
<jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>Robert J. Kolker wrote:
[His usual garbage snipped. I'm sure the Orcs have a suitable word for
it.]
>You are a liar, sir!
He's a *troll* and a rather blatant one. Why is anybody still reading
his worthless ramblings?
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Michael O'Neill
>
> Dan Leach wrote:
>
> > I saw a thread about arda and suicide (I think it was a thread on
> > Turin/Hurin and related sadness) and it got me thinking, was what Aragon did
> > at the end of his life suicide? It isn't explained in great detail but he
> > does seem to decide to take his own life. Now Tolkien being catholic would
> > have been very much against suicide in general, so is this more a case of
> > choosing your time of death when your are close anyway than suicide?
>
> prime had passed. The Numenorians were given the gift to let their fea
> depart this world when being in it was a weariness. The alternative was
> to hold one and become senile. What did Aragorn say to Arwen? -- "Would
> you have me fall witless and unmanned....". Humans must die whether they
> want to or not. They can either go with grace and full faith in a
> greater destiny that Eru has created for them, or they can go kicking a
> screaming or with tubes stuck in every orifice. Man's gift was not only
> escape from the circles of the world, but choice. He could choose to go
> when the time was right to go.
>
> Even Catholics do not believe that a person should stay alive or be kept
> alive when there is no chance for a real human life.
>
> Bob Kolker
Hasn't stopped you hanging on Kolker.
M.
TT Arvind
> The too-little-known move /The Rapture/ actully deals with this
> theme. Sharon believes she has seen a sign from God to go into the
> desert and be taken by him with her little girl, but days and weeks
> go by and nothing happens.
Does the fact that the scriptwriter for /The Rapture/ was called
"Michael Tolkin" make this discussion almost on-topic?
[SPOILER SPACE]
I think the scenario addressed by the Rapture is grounded in an entirely
different worldview, and doesn't quite deal with the same theme. The
Rapture does actually take place after all those days and weeks of wait,
but the effect of the events of those days is that the protagonist is
unable to accept it as a sign of God's grace.
In Tolkien's world, if you lie down and death does not come, then you
had been too proud, or arrogant, and that led you to misunderstand what
Eru intended for you. In the movie, I had the impression the writers
were hinting that the "real" rapture was Sharon's final line "Forever";
an assertion of the individual's will in defiance of the power of the
divine.
--
Arvind
When puns are outlawed only outlaws will have puns.
Wylie Wilde
> She had no choice. She became mortal. I think she was so sorrowful she
> surrender up her life. That's o.k.
>
> Bob Kolker
What happened to her afterwards? Did she join Aragorn in the afterlife or
did she go to the House of Mandos and be reincarnated back as an Elf?
AC
Oh no, she very much died and her spirit departed from Arda. The Half-elven
had the choice of being counted among Elves or Men. She made her choice,
and her fate became that of Men's, which is why the last meeting between her
and Elrond was so bittersweet.
Robert J. Kolker
> What happened to her afterwards? Did she join Aragorn in the afterlife or
> did she go to the House of Mandos and be reincarnated back as an Elf?
If she was mortal she goes the way of mortals. She renounced the life of
the Eldar.
Bob Kolkre
>
>
Robert J. Kolker
> Oh no, she very much died and her spirit departed from Arda. The Half-elven
> had the choice of being counted among Elves or Men. She made her choice,
> and her fate became that of Men's, which is why the last meeting between her
> and Elrond was so bittersweet.
What made it so is that she did not have Aragorn's trust in the
ultimately disposition of his fea. Arwen grew up as an Elve. She thought
like an Elve. It was only late in her very long life that she took on
mortality. Old habits die hard. How old was she, when she met Aragorn? A
few thousand years old? Can you teach an old dog new tricks, even if the
dog is an Elve?
Bob Kolker
>
Flame of the West
> What made it so is that she did not have Aragorn's trust in the
> ultimately disposition of his fea. Arwen grew up as an Elve. She thought
> like an Elve. It was only late in her very long life that she took on
> mortality. Old habits die hard. How old was she, when she met Aragorn? A
> few thousand years old? Can you teach an old dog new tricks, even if the
> dog is an Elve?
Are you calling fair Arwen a dog? If so I must ask you
to step outside.