Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?)
Michael Jacobson
forced schizophrenia in Gollum. And I'm not just referring to
Gollum's habit of talking to himself (though this kind of markedly
peculiar behavior is considered a prodromal or residual symptom).
Some of the *major* symptoms of schizophrenia that apply to Gollum
(from the DSM-II-R) include:
1) "delusions" (most definitely)
2) "incoherence or marked loosening of associations" (this can be
argued to be true or false)
3) "flat or grossly inappropriate affect" (without a doubt)
4) "Bizarre delusions" (this would include his implausible suspicions
regarding the moon--"Nassty, nassty shivery light it is - sss - it
spies on us, precious - it hurts our eyes.")
5) "Prominent hallucinations..." [I know this doesn't seem relevant
but keep reading] "...of a voice with content having no apparent
relation to depression or elation, or a voice keeping up a running
commentary on the person's behavior or thoughts, or two or more voices
conversing with each other" (Gollum, of course, CONSTANTLY has a
running commentary with himself--"Cautious, my precious! More haste
less speed. We musstn't rissk our neck, musst we, precious?")
6) "During the course of the disturbance, functioning in areas such as
work, social relations, and self-care is markedly below the highest
level achieved before onset of the disturbance" (the old fellow
*doesn't* really "keep himself up" like he should, does he?)
7) "Continuous signs of the disturbance for at least six months." (try
ageses!)
8) "It cannot be established that an organic factor initiated and
maintained the disturbance"
Well, damn. That blows the schizophrenia theory, I guess. Or *can* a
tremendous, supernatural object be considered "an organic factor"?
I know this analysis is pretty silly and is valuable only insofar as
we can attribute a modern psychological condition to any of Tolkien's
fictional characters (not to mention the one whose life has been
preternaturally extended and who lived out much of the Third Age alone
in the deep caverns under the Misty Mountains).
In this same pseudoserious vein, I propose that Sauron was a victim of
Narcissistic Personality Disorder. A listing of the symptoms will
indicate why:
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for
admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and
present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of
the following:
(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates
achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without
commensurate achievements)
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power,
brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be
understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status
people (or institutions)
(4) requires excessive admiration
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of
especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her
expectations
(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others
to achieve his or her own ends
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the
feelings and needs of others
(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of
him or her
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
Yep. That's Sauron alright. So all he needed was a good shrink. All
that Second and Third Age trouble for nothing!
--Mike
M. Perry
Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Too bad Sauron does not have a major,
on-screen role in the film. It would be very easy to cast someone as
him. Just tell someone like Alex Baldwin to "act natural" and they'd fit
the part perfectly.
--MP
Katherine Tredwell
say something.
Michael Jacobson wrote:
> Maybe Gollum *was* schizophrenic, or perhaps the Ring caused a sort of
> forced schizophrenia in Gollum. And I'm not just referring to
> Gollum's habit of talking to himself (though this kind of markedly
> peculiar behavior is considered a prodromal or residual symptom).
>
> Some of the *major* symptoms of schizophrenia that apply to Gollum
> (from the DSM-II-R) include:
You *do* mean the DSM-III-R, right?
> 1) "delusions" (most definitely)
Yep. And paranoid ones, too.
> 2) "incoherence or marked loosening of associations" (this can be
> argued to be true or false)
Agreed.
> 3) "flat or grossly inappropriate affect" (without a doubt)
I don't see that, actually. Gollum's affect seems pretty consistent with
what
we can know of his thoughts and his worldview. His anger, cowering,
laughing, sneaking, all fit together. I don't recall samples of anything
that
would fit the sort of inappropriate affect you typically see in
schizophrenics,
like laughing or crying for no reason at all. I'd expect him to, say,
laugh
when he finds out the Precious is beyond his reach, or cringe and whimper
when Frodo praises him.
> 4) "Bizarre delusions" (this would include his implausible suspicions
> regarding the moon--"Nassty, nassty shivery light it is - sss - it
> spies on us, precious - it hurts our eyes.")
Yeah, some of his delusions push the bizarre, although there is a
counter-argument to be made. For example, saying the moon spies on
him reflects the reality that it allows *others* to spy on him--so he's
right
to be paranoid. Again, he might be long accustomed to having the Ring
keep an eye on him, so to speak, and in the last years of his life there
was Sauron too--so his belief that weird supernatural powers are
looking for him may not be so unreasonable.
> 5) "Prominent hallucinations..." [I know this doesn't seem relevant
> but keep reading] "...of a voice with content having no apparent
> relation to depression or elation, or a voice keeping up a running
> commentary on the person's behavior or thoughts, or two or more voices
> conversing with each other" (Gollum, of course, CONSTANTLY has a
> running commentary with himself--"Cautious, my precious! More haste
> less speed. We musstn't rissk our neck, musst we, precious?")
Now you are reaching. Gollum talks to himself--but we have no evidence
that he heard voices. And we have an excellent alternative reason for
his tendency to talk to himself, namely the long time he spent alone under
the Misty Mountains. Tolkien tells us so himself: Gollum "always spoke
to himself through never having anyone else to speak to." (from TH)
I'd say this, more than anything else, is what rules out schizophrenia as
a diagnosis for Gollum. No voices, probably no schiz.
> 6) "During the course of the disturbance, functioning in areas such as
> work, social relations, and self-care is markedly below the highest
> level achieved before onset of the disturbance" (the old fellow
> *doesn't* really "keep himself up" like he should, does he?)
Gollum lets himself go, but I think it is more in the manner of an addict
than a schizophrenic. What goes by the wayside is anything not
immediately
necessary to his life and his habit: eating, skulking, getting the Ring.
But
when it comes to those things, he is *very* competent. He catches fish
with his bare hands. He manages to escape from or elude quite skilled
people. Most important, he is able to devise and very nearly execute an
elaborate plan to get back his Precious, one that involves deliberately
deceiving the hobbits for some time, guiding them undetected past some
of the worst perils Middle-Earth has to offer, and negotiating with
Shelob.
He doesn't *quite* pull it off, but not because of low functioning levels.
By way of contrast, your average schizophrenic can't even keep their
delusions straight from week to week, let alone sneak Ringbearing
hobbits past Ringwraiths.
> 7) "Continuous signs of the disturbance for at least six months." (try
> ageses!)
Definitely!
> 8) "It cannot be established that an organic factor initiated and
> maintained the disturbance"
>
> Well, damn. That blows the schizophrenia theory, I guess. Or *can* a
> tremendous, supernatural object be considered "an organic factor"?
I would say so. I think the stipulation is intended to exclude
identifiable
external factors, because schizophrenia is still mysterious in its
origins.
Thus, a brain tumor or abnormal thyroid functioning, while they may
cause symptoms identical to the DSM description of schizophrenia,
don't qualify. Also, the Ring is the source of another symptom clearly
not a part of schizophrenia, namely, extended life. In Tolkien's world,
mortals are not supposed to live so long, and the effects of Gollum's
abnormal extended lifespan must be taken into consideration. Could
someone who lives for centuries just get *bored* with keeping up
their personal appearance, for example?
Note that the DSM-IV mentions among its differential diagnoses
"substance abuse." Could we call the Ring a "substance"?
Now, if you want to argue that JRRT could have had in mind a vague
impression of what "crazy" people are like when he was working on
Gollum's character, you might have something. Trying to work down
a checklist that wasn't designed for decades after Gollum came into
being, though, is either an exercise in futility or in need of, well, a
little
more panache.
Katherine Tredwell
Lord Jubjub
Katherine Tredwell <ktre...@ou.edu> wrote:
> Note that the DSM-IV mentions among its differential diagnoses
> "substance abuse." Could we call the Ring a "substance"?
I always had in mind that Gollum was suffering from addiction.
> Now, if you want to argue that JRRT could have had in mind a vague
> impression of what "crazy" people are like when he was working on
> Gollum's character, you might have something. Trying to work down
> a checklist that wasn't designed for decades after Gollum came into
> being, though, is either an exercise in futility or in need of, well, a
> little more panache.
It speaks more to the author's accuracy and realism in portraying the
character. Gollum is fairly believable as Tolkien described him.
--
Lord Jubjub
Ruler of the Jabberwocky, Guardian of the Wabe, Prince of the Slithy Toves,
Leader of the raths, Keeper of the Bandersnatch
Skylar Thompson
> Michael Jacobson wrote:
>
> > 4) "Bizarre delusions" (this would include his implausible suspicions
> > regarding the moon--"Nassty, nassty shivery light it is - sss - it
> > spies on us, precious - it hurts our eyes.")
>
> Yeah, some of his delusions push the bizarre, although there is a
> counter-argument to be made. For example, saying the moon spies on
> him reflects the reality that it allows *others* to spy on him--so he's
> right
> to be paranoid. Again, he might be long accustomed to having the Ring
> keep an eye on him, so to speak, and in the last years of his life there
> was Sauron too--so his belief that weird supernatural powers are
> looking for him may not be so unreasonable.
Also remember the origins of the Moon in Middle-Earth, and the effect on
Morgoth and his forces when it first rose. They were frightened both by
the darkness and the fact that Isil was a Maia. Maybe the Ring conferred
that fright to Gollum from Sauron?
-- Skylar Thompson (sky...@attglobal.net)
P(4.2.2) + "Skylar DXLIX" DMPo L:36 DL:2500' A++ R+++ Sp w:Stormbringer
A(JLE)*/P*/Z/J64/Ad L/O H+ D+ c f-/f PV+ s TT- d++/d+ P++ M/M+
C- S++ I+/I++ So B+ ac GHB++ SQ++ RQ+ V+ F:JLE F: Possessors strong again
Michael Jacobson
> > Some of the *major* symptoms of schizophrenia that apply to Gollum
> > (from the DSM-II-R) include:
>
> You *do* mean the DSM-III-R, right?
Yep. My typo.
>
> > 1) "delusions" (most definitely)
>
<SNIP>
> > 3) "flat or grossly inappropriate affect" (without a doubt)
>
> I don't see that, actually. Gollum's affect seems pretty consistent with
> what
> we can know of his thoughts and his worldview. His anger, cowering,
> laughing, sneaking, all fit together. I don't recall samples of anything
> that
> would fit the sort of inappropriate affect you typically see in
> schizophrenics,
> like laughing or crying for no reason at all. I'd expect him to, say,
> laugh
> when he finds out the Precious is beyond his reach, or cringe and whimper
> when Frodo praises him.
You're absolutely correct. Thanks for pointing this out.
<SNIP>
> Yeah, some of his delusions push the bizarre, although there is a
> counter-argument to be made. For example, saying the moon spies on
> him reflects the reality that it allows *others* to spy on him--so he's
> right
> to be paranoid. Again, he might be long accustomed to having the Ring
> keep an eye on him, so to speak, and in the last years of his life there
> was Sauron too--so his belief that weird supernatural powers are
> looking for him may not be so unreasonable.
It would be a good time to mention that I was wondering if the whole
situation that Gollum was in created a sort of simulated schizophrenia
in him. Obviously, in a world where the moon and the sun (and
sometimes even stars) WERE in fact sentient powers, this sort of
speculation fails.
<SNIP>
> the Misty Mountains. Tolkien tells us so himself: Gollum "always spoke
> to himself through never having anyone else to speak to." (from TH)
>
> I'd say this, more than anything else, is what rules out schizophrenia as
> a diagnosis for Gollum. No voices, probably no schiz.
Again, schizophrenia is simulated here. It is clear that there IS a
voice that is continuously observing and commenting on everything that
Gollum does and thinks; the fact that this voice is externalized
doesn't change that fact.
<SNIP>
>
> > 6) "During the course of the disturbance, functioning in areas such as
> > work, social relations, and self-care is markedly below the highest
> > level achieved before onset of the disturbance" (the old fellow
> > *doesn't* really "keep himself up" like he should, does he?)
>
> Gollum lets himself go, but I think it is more in the manner of an addict
> than a schizophrenic.
<SNIP>
> By way of contrast, your average schizophrenic can't even keep their
> delusions straight from week to week, let alone sneak Ringbearing
> hobbits past Ringwraiths.
Yeah, but that symptom mentions only "areas such as work, social
relations, and self-care...", not his ability to scheme or plan with
cunning.
a) there is no way Gollum could hold down any job. I assume that's
what the DSM meant by "work."
b) his "social relations" were pretty miserable from the time he got
the Ring till his death. I don't think his dealings with Shelob can
count here. He has no friends, and he trusts no one.
c) his appearance belies the fact that Gollum did NOT take care of
himself.
Only c is up for debate in my mind, as, even though Gollum's
appearance was pretty miserable, he DID technically keep himself alive
for QUITE a long time.
<SNIP>
> > Well, damn. That blows the schizophrenia theory, I guess. Or *can* a
> > tremendous, supernatural object be considered "an organic factor"?
>
> I would say so. I think the stipulation is intended to exclude
> identifiable
> external factors, because schizophrenia is still mysterious in its
> origins.
I agree.
<SNIP>
>
> Note that the DSM-IV mentions among its differential diagnoses
> "substance abuse." Could we call the Ring a "substance"?
Sure. Why not?
> Now, if you want to argue that JRRT could have had in mind a vague
> impression of what "crazy" people are like when he was working on
> Gollum's character, you might have something.
No, I won't argue that!
> Trying to work down
> a checklist that wasn't designed for decades after Gollum came into
> being, though, is either an exercise in futility or in need of, well, a
> little
> more panache.
You did know I was being tongue and cheek about all this schizophrenia
business, right? ;-) As I mentioned in my first message in the
thread, I'm not being serious, and trying to attribute modern
psychological conditions to fictional characters in a fantastical
world is just silly. But it can be fun to discuss even silly
speculation, right?
In that vein, and "psychologically speaking," what is your diagnosis
of Gollum?
--Mike
Donald Shepherd
Jacobson <mike_ja...@hotmail.com> says...
> Only c is up for debate in my mind, as, even though Gollum's
> appearance was pretty miserable, he DID technically keep himself alive
> for QUITE a long time.
As seen in the subject line change, this makes me wonder whether the Ring
could prevent death completely. For example, if the bearer went on a
hunger strike, would the Ring still keep him alive? What about if he
attempted to commit suicide? Or got stabbed while wearing the Ring? In
the first two cases, could the Ring affect the bearer's mind to the
extant where it can prevent either, which is why I added the
third case. Could the Ring stop external events from killing
it's bearer? Remember, only one person died while bearing the Ring, and
that was due to a slip.
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_...@hotmail.com>
Classic Opening Lines from the Lyttle Lytton Contest:
"The moon was full, the hot-dog-eating contest was over, and I had
a lot of throwing up to do."
ste...@nomail.msu.edu
: As seen in the subject line change, this makes me wonder whether the Ring
: hunger strike, would the Ring still keep him alive? What about if he
: attempted to commit suicide? Or got stabbed while wearing the Ring? In
: the first two cases, could the Ring affect the bearer's mind to the
: extant where it can prevent either, which is why I added the
: third case. Could the Ring stop external events from killing
: it's bearer? Remember, only one person died while bearing the Ring, and
: that was due to a slip.
Sauron was "killed" while wearing the Ring. So I do not think the
Ring could stop external events from killing its wearer.
Stephen
Donald Shepherd
<ste...@nomail.msu.edu> says...
OK, two then :).
How about the other possibilities?
Raven
news:MPG.15f43b5ca...@news.uq.edu.au...
> As seen in the subject line change, this makes me wonder whether the
> Ring could prevent death completely. For example, if the bearer
> went on a hunger strike, would the Ring still keep him alive? What
> about if he attempted to commit suicide? Or got stabbed while
> wearing the Ring? In the first two cases, could the Ring affect the
> bearer's mind to the extant where it can prevent either, which is why
> I added the third case. Could the Ring stop external events from
> killing it's bearer? Remember, only one person died while bearing
> the Ring, and that was due to a slip.
I don't think that the Ring could prevent the bearer from dying. It
certainly could not prevent the bearer from getting hurt, or Bilbo would
have spent the night following the Battle of Five Armies more
comfortably than he did. It simply made the wearer increasingly
wraith-like. If he weren't slain, his existence would simply stretch
out until it stretched into the wraith-world.
It may be argued that Sauron died while bearing the Ring, though as a
Maia he could form a new body.
Hraban.
John Savard
Jacobson) wrote, in part:
>You did know I was being tongue and cheek about all this schizophrenia
>business, right? ;-) As I mentioned in my first message in the
>thread, I'm not being serious, and trying to attribute modern
>psychological conditions to fictional characters in a fantastical
>world is just silly. But it can be fun to discuss even silly
>speculation, right?
>In that vein, and "psychologically speaking," what is your diagnosis
>of Gollum?
It is clear to me that Gollum is not suffering from any condition
remotely resembling schizophrenia.
Clinical depression, certainly. Basically, though, he is a sad and
bitter creature, blaming everyone but himself for his problems, and
incapable of accepting any responsibility himself. Quite possibly a
psychopath. Also, there is evident regression to a childlike,
impulsive state.
Although Gollum is an extreme case, given his extended lifespan, and
the baleful influence of the One Ring, his case is not unlike that of
large numbers of criminals, and I suspect there would be little hope
of improvement through conventional treatment.
John Savard
http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/other/slrint.htm
grimgard
Donald Shepherd wrote:
>
> In article <c7a02433.01082...@posting.google.com>, Michael
> Jacobson <mike_ja...@hotmail.com> says...
> > Only c is up for debate in my mind, as, even though Gollum's
> > appearance was pretty miserable, he DID technically keep himself alive
> > for QUITE a long time.
>
> As seen in the subject line change, this makes me wonder whether the Ring
> could prevent death completely. For example, if the bearer went on a
> hunger strike, would the Ring still keep him alive? What about if he
> attempted to commit suicide? Or got stabbed while wearing the Ring? In
> the first two cases, could the Ring affect the bearer's mind to the
> extant where it can prevent either, which is why I added the
> third case. Could the Ring stop external events from killing
> it's bearer? Remember, only one person died while bearing the Ring, and
> that was due to a slip.
Actually, we don't even know whether or not Gollum still bore the Ring
at the exact moment of his death. It's an interesting question though.
The only reference I know of that Tolkien ever made appears in The
Hobbit, in which he points out that a magic ring is not a complete
protection in a battle; but, of course, at the time that passage was
written, the Ring had not yet evolved to the powerful heirloom that it
became in the later story. My personal take is that the Ring alone
would not protect its bearer from death, only from the body's natural
aging process.
grimgard
Jeff George
>
>
> Clinical depression, certainly. Basically, though, he is a sad and
> bitter creature, blaming everyone but himself for his problems, and
> incapable of accepting any responsibility himself. Quite possibly a
> psychopath. Also, there is evident regression to a childlike,
> impulsive state.
>
Shit. I'm Gollum.
--
=====================================================================
Mark my words, believe my soul lives on.
Don't worry now that I have gone, I've gone beyond to seek the truth.
When you know that your time is close at hand
Maybe then you'll begin to understand
Life down there is just a strange illusion.
- Steve Harris
=====================================================================
Jeff George
Russ
writes:
>John Savard wrote:
>>
>>
>> Clinical depression, certainly. Basically, though, he is a sad and
>> bitter creature, blaming everyone but himself for his problems, and
>> incapable of accepting any responsibility himself. Quite possibly a
>> psychopath. Also, there is evident regression to a childlike,
>> impulsive state.
>>
>
>Shit. I'm Gollum.
Keep your stinking paws off my 'precious' you damn dirty Stoor!
Russ
OMeallyMD
>Some of the *major* symptoms of schizophrenia that apply to Gollum
>> > (from the DSM-II-R) include:
>>
>> You *do* mean the DSM-III-R, right?
>
>Yep. My typo.
<snip>
I'm not a psychiatrist, just a lowly FP,but...
I've always gotten an "Axis II" feeling from Gollum, that is, personality
disorders (antisocial or perhaps borderline). To diagnose antisocial, he would
have to have exibited evidence of conduct disorder before the age of 15 (anyone
care to guess what that would be in Hobbit years?!). Certainly he meets the
criteria as an adult: stealing, impulsivity, lying, lack of remorse, etc.
He does seem to have some borderline personality disorder features,
particularly with his problems with interpersonal relationships in his younger
days by the banks of the Anduin.Like the antisocials, these folks also exhibit
impulsiveness, identity disturbances, and tend to either put others on a
pedestal or hate their guts (Frodo and Sam?).
Another thread argued for and against multiple personality disorder. One of the
arguments against stated that he didn't have two personalities because he never
referred to *himself* as Gollum (which he did in The Passage of the Marshes:
"...Gollum the Great? _The_ Gollum!..."). Even if he didn't, MPD does not
require two personalities, but the individual may exhibit two or more
personality _states_, each with its own relatively enduring pattern of
perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and self.
Additionally, That personality or state must take full control of the person's
behavior. Transitions between these states usually occur repidly. Additionally,
MPD and borderline personality tend to coexist in up to 70% of those with the
diagnosis. Gollum/Smeagol certainly seems to meet the criteria!
Perhaps the major underlying factor is his substance dependence (the substance
being The Ring). Gollum exhibits much of the same behavior as any drug addict
would in his physical, social and emotional problems.
Gollum doesn't seem to fit the diagnosis of schizophrenia. He doesn't really
have psychotic features (hallucinations or bizarre delusions) even though one
could argue that he did have some persecutory delusions (the Sun watching him),
although I always read that as him simply starting to hate the light as a
result of The Ring. Again, his bizarre behavior he began to exhibit in his
homeland could be explained by his becoming more and more dependent on his drug
of choice (The Ring). Schizophrenia is effectively ruled out if it can be
established that an organic factor (a physical illness, drug use, etc.)
initiated the disturbance. Again, it seems that The Ring's ever strengthening
hold on Gollum was the initiating factor.
Just my two cents.
Bill
"Wise fool."
Gandalf, "The Two Towers"
Katherine Tredwell
> Katherine Tredwell <ktre...@ou.edu> wrote in message news:<3B87FFCB...@ou.edu>...
[...]
> > Yeah, some of his delusions push the bizarre, although there is a
> > counter-argument to be made. For example, saying the moon spies on
> > him reflects the reality that it allows *others* to spy on him--so he's
> > right
> > to be paranoid. Again, he might be long accustomed to having the Ring
> > keep an eye on him, so to speak, and in the last years of his life there
> > was Sauron too--so his belief that weird supernatural powers are
> > looking for him may not be so unreasonable.
>
> It would be a good time to mention that I was wondering if the whole
> situation that Gollum was in created a sort of simulated schizophrenia
> in him. Obviously, in a world where the moon and the sun (and
> sometimes even stars) WERE in fact sentient powers, this sort of
> speculation fails.
Not necessarily, which is why I hedged on this one. Even if the sun and
moon are sentient, it could be a delusion for Gollum to think they take
a special interest in *him*. Delusions of reference, I think.
> > the Misty Mountains. Tolkien tells us so himself: Gollum "always spoke
> > to himself through never having anyone else to speak to." (from TH)
> >
> > I'd say this, more than anything else, is what rules out schizophrenia as
> > a diagnosis for Gollum. No voices, probably no schiz.
>
> Again, schizophrenia is simulated here. It is clear that there IS a
> voice that is continuously observing and commenting on everything that
> Gollum does and thinks; the fact that this voice is externalized
> doesn't change that fact.
This point is the "matter of interpretation" in this thread. Does
Gollum's talking to himself represent a "voice" or not? Schizophrenic
hallucinations and delusions have a strong external quality, in which
thoughts are put into your head, someone makes psychic assaults
on you, etc. Gollum's voice is his own. I am also hesitant to put
aside an explanation Tolkien gives in the voice of an omniscient
narrator, even though it was before he had fully developed the idea
of what Gollum had.
But there's an argument either way. I admit, that if I passed Gollum
sitting on the street, and heard him muttering to himself, I'd think
"schizophrenia."
> > > 6) "During the course of the disturbance, functioning in areas such as
> > > work, social relations, and self-care is markedly below the highest
> > > level achieved before onset of the disturbance" (the old fellow
> > > *doesn't* really "keep himself up" like he should, does he?)
> >
> > Gollum lets himself go, but I think it is more in the manner of an addict
> > than a schizophrenic.
> <SNIP>
> > By way of contrast, your average schizophrenic can't even keep their
> > delusions straight from week to week, let alone sneak Ringbearing
> > hobbits past Ringwraiths.
>
> Yeah, but that symptom mentions only "areas such as work, social
> relations, and self-care...", not his ability to scheme or plan with
> cunning.
I based my statement, I confess, on how I have seen the DSM
applied as much as what it says word-for-word. Basic levels of
care go because the ability to do anything more elaborate has gone
long ago.
> a) there is no way Gollum could hold down any job. I assume that's
> what the DSM meant by "work."
In our world...but in Middle Earth, how many people get by
without a job, as long as they can put together basic sustenance?
Strider's basic job description might be, "roam the wilderness eating
stuff you find, and kill whatever you deem inconvenient." Gollum
manages that too, just not as gracefully. [Okay, big smileys here]
> b) his "social relations" were pretty miserable from the time he got
> the Ring till his death. I don't think his dealings with Shelob can
> count here. He has no friends, and he trusts no one.
You're right that Shelob doesn't constitute a social life (doesn't
LOTR say he "worshipped" her?). Gollum doesn't have a social
life. Is it schizophrenia or just paranoia?
> c) his appearance belies the fact that Gollum did NOT take care of
> himself.
>
> Only c is up for debate in my mind, as, even though Gollum's
> appearance was pretty miserable, he DID technically keep himself alive
> for QUITE a long time.
I won't try to argue that he didn't let himself go. It just looks to me
more like the lack of grooming that goes with addiction (nothing
matters but the next fix) more than schizophrenia (where you get
weird statements like "blue blush looks good!" and "I hear voices
when I get in the bathtub.")
One more symptom to add in favor of schizophrenia:
disorganized speech. People who talk to him evidently get quite
fed up with all his mutterings and irrelevancies.
[...]
> In that vein, and "psychologically speaking," what is your diagnosis
> of Gollum?
Well, I don't think he has Multiple Personality Disorder, as was
suggested on the "What Would Gollum Do?" thread. (That
thread has me wanting WWGD jewellry *so* bad....) He
never seems to have blackouts or lost memory. That was a
universal of "multiple personalities" until quite recently. For
someone who wanted to push the dissociation/personalities
angle, I'd consider "Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise
Specified."
But I'm inclined more to agree with you, at least that Gollum
is psychotic, if not full-blown schizophrenic. So the safe
diagnosis would be "Psychotic Disorder Not Otherwise
Specified." I love DSM's hedging!
But I have another suggestion. Since it will take some space
I'll save it for another post.
Katherine Tredwell
Katherine Tredwell
> In that vein, and "psychologically speaking," what is your diagnosis
> of Gollum?
My suggestion: Gollum suffers from an extremely rare condition
called "Annular Obsession Disorder." The committee that worked
on the DSM-IV rejected my proposed diagnostic category, and
subsequent attempts to publish my work on it have failed. So, in
the interests of science, I present a sample of my notes to the
newsgroups.
Annular Obsession Disorder [AOD]
In order to be diagnosed with AOD, the patient must meet the
following criteria:
A. Possession of a Ring of Power. [hereafter referred to as ROP]
This is generally the most difficult symptom to verify. Patients with
AOD are very secretive about their disorder and will omit to mention,
or outright deny, ownership of a ROP. AOD should be suspected
even without evidence of a ROP if other criteria are met, particularly
if the patient expresses a desire to regain some unspecified “trifle” or
small thing of no value.
B. Denial of past or present possession of a ROP, or elaborate
justification for its possession.
This appears to be part of a psychological defense mechanism to
protect the desired object and ensure it is not taken by another.
Justifications may include asserting that the ROP was intended by fate
as a gift, or that it is a payment for past wrongs.
C. Obsessive desire to retain the ROP or to regain it if it has been lost
or taken.
D. Three (or more) of the following must be observed for a significant
amount of time for a period of at least one month following possession
of the ROP:
* A pathological “will to power,” manifesting in such ways as delusions
of grandeur, ambitions of world conquest, or excessive lust for gold
(in Dwarves).
* Paranoia, expressed in the belief that one is being watched or plotted
against, usually in connection with the ROP. The ROP itself may be
said to be observing its owner.
* Secretive, furtive, or antisocial behavior.
* Belief that one’s will is dominated by another or that commands are
inserted into one’s head, usually in connection with the ROP.
* Somatic or tactile hallucinations involving the ROP, such as feeling
one’s hand moving “involuntarily” to the ROP, that it is a dragging
weight, or that it changes in size or temperature.
* Supernatural abilities, such as invisibility and extended lifespan.
Case 1
Mr. B. B. is an elderly hobbit of respectable background formerly
residing in the Shire. While on an extended vacation at the age of 50,
Mr. B. found a ROP that had been lost by a local and, rather than
reporting his find to the proper authorities, put it in his pocket as a
souvenir. He successfully concealed the ROP for some time. Even
after he was forced to reveal its existence to his fellow vacationers,
following their discovery of his newfound powers of invisibility, he
dissembled concerning the exact details of how he obtained it.
After returning home, Mr. B. continued to hide the ROP from his
community, only telling one or two trusted family members about it.
He did, however, make use of its invisibility to avoid disliked relatives.
His extreme old age (he is currently 129 years) must also be
attributed to the ROP. Over time, he found himself dwelling on the
ROP. He said that “it has been so growing on my mind lately” and
that “it was like an eye looking at me.” A social worker assigned to
his case reported that he was able to persuade the patient to relinquish
the ROP only with great difficulty (this seemed the best course of
action to help break a pattern of obsessive thoughts resulting from
constant fondling of the object). Mr. B. twice attempted to leave the
caseworker’s presence with the ROP concealed in his pocket, and
might have done so a third time had the social worker not seized it.
Mr. B. reported immediate relief after surrendering the ROP. His
successful adjustment must be attributed in large part to his having
found a supportive community in Rivendell. Nevertheless, he suffered
a temporary relapse following brief exposure to the ROP. AOD may
be controlled but not cured. Even such a successful outcome as Mr. B.
reached is rare and must not be expected. A genetic component to
susceptibility is suspected as Mr. B.’s nephew also suffers from AOD.
Case 2
Mr. W. K. was brought in for psychiatric evaluation following his
arrest for stalking, disturbing the peace, and concealment of a deadly
weapon. He came to the interview completely shrouded in a black
cloak. The police report indicated that these were “gang colors” and
that the patient had been seen in the company of several individuals
dressed similarly, but it is possibly an attempt to disguise the patient’s
invisibility. The patient was extremely hostile and refused to give his
name. He identified himself only as “the Witch King” and claimed to
be over four thousand years old, adding that his criminal activity was
performed at the order of a mysterious entity known as the “Dark Lord.”
Witnesses reported that Mr. K. and his companions displayed a
variety of supernatural abilities, such as breaking swords from a
distance and inducing unspecified fear. He was arrested following
reports that an individual matching his description was frightening
people at night, inquiring about the whereabouts of a certain hobbit
and mumbling something about “murder, murder.” When asked about
this, the patient insisted that he was obeying the will of the “Dark
Lord,” although he could not provide a valid address or phone number
for his employer. Patient was silent when asked whether he had a
ring; the police report does not list an item matching description of a
ROP among the patient’s possessions.
The interviewer observed that Mr. K. had shielded his head with a
metal band and gently inquired whether this represented an effort to
keep out intrusive thoughts. The patient angrily denied this, saying it
was a crown and insisting on his royal status. A moment later, he
jumped onto the table and began shouting, “I am the Wizard King!
I can do anything!” It was deemed advisable at this point to terminate
the interview.
Mr. K. is currently under restraint and heavy sedation.
Case 3
Mr. S. presented himself for treatment. At first the patient was
friendly and affable, expressing admiration of and interest in a plain
gold ring worn by the interviewer. Gradually, however, he became
increasingly hostile and eventually threatening.
Mr. S. suffers from a combination of grandiose and persecutory
delusions. He described elaborate plans to take over the world with
hordes of orcs and elite servants called “Nazgul.” The patient showed
signs of disorganized speech when discussing the Nazgul, saying that
they “have unseen sinews knit to their wills by some sort of spell.” The
patient claimed to be a god or possibly an angel, and expressed irritation
with another angel he said was frustrating his plans and plotting his
downfall. He also said he had been killed previously and made himself
a new body. A diagnosis of AOD was made when the patient let slip
the information that he was seeking a ROP and sought to justify
ownership by claiming, improbably, to have made it himself!
Mr. S. was extremely resistant to the therapy process and stormed
out during the second session when his therapist refused to worship
him. Subsequent attempts to contact the patient have been
unsuccessful, and a social worker assigned to his case reports that his
home in Dol Guldur has been abandoned.
Conclusions
AOD is a rare but real disorder caused by prolonged exposure to a
type of magical object rarely found in Middle-Earth. Care must be
taken to distinguish it from the various psychotic disorders, particularly
paranoid schizophrenia, which may cause similar delusions in the patient.
It is also important to distinguish AOD from two other mental illnesses
known to result from magical objects. Annular-Related Obsession
Disorder [AROD] is a related but milder disorder caused by proximity
to, but not possession of, a ROP. Palantiric Dementia [PD] can be
distinguished from AOD and AROD by the lack of paranoid or
grandiose delusions and by the elaborate hallucinations associated with
the object of fixation, which is not a ring but a “palantir” resembling a
crystal ball. AOD is a highly debilitating illness and only two cases are
known to have had a positive resolution. In both cases, removal of the
ROP was a difficult but vital step in treatment.
Katherine "Doctor" Tredwell
Tiffany Case
>
>
> Annular Obsession Disorder [AOD]
>
> snip
ROTFL. Funniest damn thing I've read in a long time.
-TC
Skylar Thompson
[snip cases]
Excellent! That was so good it has earned a place in my hard drive. :)
--
Michael Jacobson
<SNIP BRILLIANT DSM-IV proposed diagnostic category>
> AOD is a highly debilitating illness and only two cases are
> known to have had a positive resolution. In both cases, removal of the
> ROP was a difficult but vital step in treatment.
>
> Katherine "Doctor" Tredwell
I literally cried with laughter. Thank you so much!
You MUST repost that message in its own thread so others can benefit.
My favorite passage:
> The interviewer observed that Mr. K. had shielded his head with a
> metal band and gently inquired whether this represented an effort to
> keep out intrusive thoughts. The patient angrily denied this, saying it
> was a crown and insisting on his royal status. A moment later, he
> jumped onto the table and began shouting, “I am the Wizard King!
> I can do anything!” It was deemed advisable at this point to terminate
> the interview.
>
> Mr. K. is currently under restraint and heavy sedation.
I'm STILL chuckling. Brilliant.
--Mike
Michael Jacobson
> > It would be a good time to mention that I was wondering if the whole
> > situation that Gollum was in created a sort of simulated schizophrenia
> > in him. Obviously, in a world where the moon and the sun (and
> > sometimes even stars) WERE in fact sentient powers, this sort of
> > speculation fails.
>
> Not necessarily, which is why I hedged on this one. Even if the sun and
> moon are sentient, it could be a delusion for Gollum to think they take
> a special interest in *him*. Delusions of reference, I think.
Good point.
> > b) his "social relations" were pretty miserable from the time he got
> > the Ring till his death. I don't think his dealings with Shelob can
> > count here. He has no friends, and he trusts no one.
>
> You're right that Shelob doesn't constitute a social life (doesn't
> LOTR say he "worshipped" her?). Gollum doesn't have a social
> life. Is it schizophrenia or just paranoia?
It's AOD all the way!
> One more symptom to add in favor of schizophrenia:
> disorganized speech. People who talk to him evidently get quite
> fed up with all his mutterings and irrelevancies.
This might be one of the reasons why Gollum is my favorite character
in LOTR and a favorite for a small (but consistent) minority of
readers. Not to harp on an old discussion, but Sam's treatment of the
clearly mentally disturbed Gollum seems tantamount to abuse. In
another life, Samwise could have been an attendant in a mental
institution; perhaps in the 19th century (I'm thinking DRACULA, here,
with Gollum playing Renfield).
Ok, I'll stop picking on poor Sam. He was just being protective of
Master Frodo; Gollum was a deceitful murderer; blah-di-blah-di-blah.
> Well, I don't think he has Multiple Personality Disorder, as was
> suggested on the "What Would Gollum Do?" thread.
Me neither. I'm pretty skeptical of that diagnosis for ANYone, but,
then again, I'm no doctor (or even student of psychology/psychiatry).
> (That
> thread has me wanting WWGD jewellry *so* bad....)
I'd like a t-shirt with "WWGD" printed in large, dark gray letters on
the front and an image of the Hildebrandt brothers' fish eating Gollum
on the back. Underneath the image would be the words "What would
Gollum do?" in the same, large print.
Considering where I live, I'm pretty sure this would get me stoned.
<SNIP>
> But I'm inclined more to agree with you, at least that Gollum
> is psychotic, if not full-blown schizophrenic. So the safe
> diagnosis would be "Psychotic Disorder Not Otherwise
> Specified." I love DSM's hedging!
>
> But I have another suggestion. Since it will take some space
> I'll save it for another post.
And what a post it was! I wonder if O. Sharp would consider
publishing it within the hallowed halls of his Tolkien Sarcasm
website? Mr. Sharp? You out there?
--Mike
Bryan Douglas
> By this definition, half or more of Hollywood's celebrities have a
> Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
> --MP
>
And. . . you find this hard to believe? ;-)
Andrew F Donnell
<SNIP AOD ARTICLE>
This was a very humorous post and I thank you very much for writing it
and brightening my day.
Count Menelvagor
<snippone>
PDF! pRETTY dARN fUNNY!
Let's not even get into BWD ...
Morgil Blackhope
Michael Jacobson kirjoitti viestissä ...
>This might be one of the reasons why Gollum is my favorite character
>in LOTR and a favorite for a small (but consistent) minority of
>readers. Not to harp on an old discussion, but Sam's treatment of the
>clearly mentally disturbed Gollum seems tantamount to abuse. In
>another life, Samwise could have been an attendant in a mental
>institution; perhaps in the 19th century (I'm thinking DRACULA, here,
>with Gollum playing Renfield).
Has anyone yet suggested Tom Waits for the role of Gollum in
the Movies? :)
>> But I have another suggestion. Since it will take some space
>> I'll save it for another post.
>
>
>And what a post it was! I wonder if O. Sharp would consider
>publishing it within the hallowed halls of his Tolkien Sarcasm
>website? Mr. Sharp? You out there?
Seconded. (and 3-7ed)
Morgil
Flame of the West
Katherine Tredwell wrote:
> My suggestion: Gollum suffers from an extremely rare condition
> called "Annular Obsession Disorder."
> Katherine "Doctor" Tredwell
Doctor,
I just wanted to report that Mrs. FotW (who occasionally lurks
here) found this the single most hilarious post ever on RABT,
even more so than mine!
--
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth.
Katherine Tredwell
> Katherine Tredwell <ktre...@ou.edu> wrote in message news:<3B8C3AA0...@ou.edu>...
>
> <SNIP BRILLIANT DSM-IV proposed diagnostic category>
>
> > AOD is a highly debilitating illness and only two cases are
> > known to have had a positive resolution. In both cases, removal of the
> > ROP was a difficult but vital step in treatment.
> >
> > Katherine "Doctor" Tredwell
>
> I literally cried with laughter. Thank you so much!
>
> You MUST repost that message in its own thread so others can benefit.
I hate to consume the bandwidth. But I'll repost this item for the
benefit of r.a.b.t. readers, with the caveat that anyone who missed
my original post on AOD in the "Gollum's Schizophrenia" thread
really should go back and read it first. I'm also appending a
late-breaking update(!)
*********
[In "Saruman the many-colored"] "Christopher M." wrote:
> Anyone knows what it means when Saruman the White becomes Saruman the Many
> Colored? Does it mean that he's lost his mind and the colors represent his
> multiple personalities?
No, it is a symptom of Palantiric Dementia [PD]. The "many colors"
refer to the elaborate hallucinations experienced by sufferers of PD,
superficially resembling the colorful visions of "trippers." Saruman is
one of only three documented cases of PD, and the only known
case of simultaneous PD and Annular-Related Obsession Disorder
[AROD] resulting from his extensive research into power objects.
Saruman's "many colors" may also allude to the "many-colored" coat
of the Biblical patriarch Joseph, in which case they may symbolize
his AROD-related delusions of grandeur in which he becomes a
universal father figure, the "Old Man" of Middle Earth.
Until recently, Saruman was the senior social worker at our firm
and specialized in illnesses resulting from exposure to power objects.
While Eriador Psychiatric Consultations does not accept
responsibility for Saruman's illnesses or the resulting damages, we
acknowledge that they developed during his association with the
firm and deeply regret the lack of prompt diagnosis and treatment.
Our lawyers are preparing to appeal the recent decisions in the
cases of The Shire v. Eriador Psychiatric Consultations, Rohan v.
EPC, Fangorn v. EPC, et al., which place the full burden of war
reparations on EPC. The court absolved Mordor of all
responsibility, citing the precedent set by King Elessar. Our
appeal will argue for the prominent role of Mordor in Saruman's
misfortunes and suggest that the bulk of payments should be
drawn from the estate of Mr. Sauron.
*********
On Thursday the court finally handed down decisions concerning
the exact amounts EPC is to pay in reparations, and the costs
are staggering. The charge for damages to the Shire alone was
equivalent to an entire mithril shirt! We offered them a perfect
man as an alternative, but the hobbits wouldn't hear of it. They
wanted hard currency so they could buy more food and
pipeweed. They may be psychologically resilient, but the scale
of their collective oral fixation is alarming.
Our team of lawyers are preparing a counter-claim on behalf
of Saruman's estate, based on the extensive damage done to
Isengard during the recent war. Fangorn's assault on Orthanc
considerably reduced its property value, to which damage one
should add extensive looting by the hobbits following the floods.
In addition, Ents are now squatting on Isengard--well, not
squatting, exactly, since they can't bend their legs. At any
rate, they have either seized or destroyed nearly the whole of
Saruman's estate. The gains on their part should be factored
into damages awarded.
We have also discovered that the government of Gondor has
been suppressing certain documents found in Mordor after
the recent war. Apparently the late Mr. Sauron had originally
intended to vacate Middle-Earth after the unfortunate affair
with Morgoth, but he was ordered by the court to remain
until he performed 12 billion hours of community service. In
the future, revisionist historians may be producing analyses
of the responsibility of the legal system for Mr. Sauron's
continued presence and the consequent impact on our
geopolitical systems.
Katherine "Doctor" Tredwell
Andrew F Donnell
> I hate to consume the bandwidth. But I'll repost this item for the
> benefit of r.a.b.t. readers, with the caveat that anyone who missed
> my original post on AOD in the "Gollum's Schizophrenia" thread
> really should go back and read it first. I'm also appending a
> late-breaking update(!)
<SNIPPE>
ROTFLSKJLADSJHNARGFJAODGJADSKJFALKDSJFLK....
Sorry, I was laughing so hard I couldn't type. Keep up the good work.
Andy.
Stan Brown
>Michael Jacobson wrote:
>> You MUST repost that message in its own thread so others can benefit.
>
>I hate to consume the bandwidth.
And with good reason.
It's hard to imagine a good reason ever to repost something, when
people could just as easily pull it up from Google.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://oakroadsystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/
Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
Count Menelvagor
<sneep>
THis is the funniest struff I've seen around here in quite some time
... (apart from Öje' e-t. cahpter, of curse).
John McCafferty
"OMeallyMD" <omea...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010827223545...@mb-fu.aol.com...
second attempt at posting ...
Carefull reading of Gollum's terminology as he "talks to himself"
reveals
two personalities (not always the same two) but dosn't fit into conventional
multiple personality disorder, since the two personalities are both aware
of each other and carry on an active conversation. In "The Hobbit", the
Gollum personality addresses the other as "Preciousss" and "Preciouss"
addresses the other as (what else?) "Gollum" The "Collum" half seems to be
more cautious, or at least less insane. The two act in unison when he /they
shout "Theif! ... Baggins! ...We hatess it forever!" and he seems to have
got
used to there being two of him when he talks to and about himself at the
same time (example .... "...Teeth, my precious, but WE has only six!")
In the trilogy itself, the Gollum (what Sam calls "Stinker") personality
is still there, but the "Precious" is replaced by the less evil Smeagol,
("Slinker" in Sam's terms) who is less treacherous than Gollum, but still
not the nicest person you would want for a traveling companion. The two
keep up the dialog, addressing each other by their respective names
(Gollum and Smeagol), just like Gollum and the Preciouss conversed in
"The Hobbit".
This may be a sort of multiple personality, but is apparently a
condition induced by the power of the ring and is NOT the conventional
type of MPD.
As aragorn said .... "That is how I make my tale. Others might be
devised.". Thanks in Advance for any feedback .....
John in Alabama
OMeallyMD
<snip>
Your argument against Gollum/Smeagol not having MPD is based on the assumption
that the personalities are aware of each other. The diagnostic criteria (in
DSM-IIIR anyway) doesn't include this. In fact, my psychiatry textbook state
that the personalities or personality _states_ may or may not be aware of each
other.
I agree completely that The Ring is instrumental in much of G/S's mental
illness(s), either directly by its power or through G/S's addiction, if the two
can even be separated. Again however, the diagnostic criteria don't rule out
MPD if an organic etiology can be established (unlike schizophrenia).