Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth
Gregory Hernandez
discussions, I was wondering if it had been commented on just how much
assonance there is between names in Tolkien's history and names in history
and myth. Such as:
Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs
Gil-Galad = Gilgamesh
Atalante = Atlantis/Atlanteans
Eldar = Elders
Numenoreans (Numinous ancestors - I know, not a name, but the similarity is
still there IMHO)
I imagine that as a linguist, these were not accidents. Are there other
names or phrases that have caught your eye (ear)?
Greg
AC
Gregory Hernandez <greg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> As we have been discussing the Appendices to the LotR in the CotW
> discussions, I was wondering if it had been commented on just how much
> assonance there is between names in Tolkien's history and names in history
> and myth. Such as:
>
> Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs
This one I can buy to some extent.
> Gil-Galad = Gilgamesh
Pure coincidence. The two characters have nothing in common other than
being kings.
> Atalante = Atlantis/Atlanteans
A very happy linguistic accident.
> Eldar = Elders
Another I can buy.
> Numenoreans (Numinous ancestors - I know, not a name, but the similarity is
> still there IMHO)
Not as far as I can see.
>
> I imagine that as a linguist, these were not accidents. Are there other
> names or phrases that have caught your eye (ear)?
Some of the above are accidents, one of them (Atalante) being a very
fortuitous one.
Christopher Kreuzer
> As we have been discussing the Appendices to the LotR in the CotW
> discussions, I was wondering if it had been commented on just how much
> assonance there is between names in Tolkien's history and names in
> history and myth. Such as:
My personal associations when reading these names are as follows.
> Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs
Yes, I do make this association, and also Tolkien once compared
Numenoreans and the Egyptian culture. But in fact, Tolkien probably had
quite a specific meaning in mind, and probably not Pharaonic. I don't
know what Ar-Pharazon means, but the Elvish form of his name
(Tar-Calion) might be a clue.
> Gil-Galad = Gilgamesh
Never thought that.
> Atalante = Atlantis/Atlanteans
That is indeed what we are meant to think.
> Eldar = Elders
Not really. Tolkien calls the Quendi/Eldar the Elder race, which can be
confusing, but Eldar is quite clearly "People of the Stars", where 'El-'
is star. It is also the name given to those who set out on the Great
Journey west from Cuivienen. See index entry for 'Eldar' in /The
Silmarillion/.
> Numenoreans (Numinous ancestors - I know, not a name, but the
> similarity is still there IMHO)
Huh? Another one where I draw a blank. Can you expand on the association
you make between 'numinous' and Numenorean?
> I imagine that as a linguist, these were not accidents. Are there
> other names or phrases that have caught your eye (ear)?
No. But while I imagine that Tolkien's ear as a philologist was
sensitive to such things, it was also more sensitive than most to the
mistakes that can be made when trying to make links like this. He might
have recognised the fortuitous assonances you point out, or been annoyed
by them, but I suspect he was more concerned with the structures and
relationship between his languages, than trying to get things to sound
like real words. The case of Atalante is an example of a word where he
recognised the assonance, but claimed it was accidental (or something
similar - details are in a letter, can't remember the exact quote).
Here's a similar opinion:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/09f35d9d4ca91640
[b5acgq$80h$1...@panix5.panix.com http://tinyurl.com/bumru]
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Georg Schönegger
some were, some were not
a good example would be "Sauron" which had no connection to lizards, the
"S" being evolved from first age "TH". atalante on the other side is
clearly related to atlantis. somewhere tolkien makes a comment about
gandalf's name "Incanus" possibly being latin?! (don't remember the
source - maybe in the article about the istari or in some related
footnote?)
georg
Morthond
taking that our "c" (phonetic "th" in Spaniard Spanish used to be
phonetic "k" as in Incanus, in latin, therefore "Incanus" and "anciano"
would sound veeeeery similar), but that is a mere coincidence I guess.
We can probably derive thousands this way and err all the same....
;-)
Cheers
Morthond
Morthond
Well, Tolkien was a devout Catholic you know. So you are probably right
on this one.
Cheers
Morthond
Jens Kilian
> I don't
> know what Ar-Pharazon means, but the Elvish form of his name
> (Tar-Calion) might be a clue.
"The Golden (King)", IIRC.
--
mailto:j...@acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
http://del.icio.us/jjk
Simon J. Rowe
>> Eldar = Elders
>
> Another I can buy.
No, JRRT says in 'Guide to Names'
The similarity between Elda-r plural, the western Elves, and Elder is
accidental. The name Elda ?Elf? had been devised long before The Lord of
the Rings was written.
Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
> Greg
Reading the Bible lately, I noticed that "Rimmon" is the
name of a place (I think even the name of a hill) in it. There
were a few other names that caught my eye. Of course "Nimrod"
is a person in the Bible.
--Jamie. (a Dover edition designed for years of use!)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>> I don't know what Ar-Pharazon means, but the Elvish form
>> of his name (Tar-Calion) might be a clue.
>
> "The Golden (King)", IIRC.
So the name "Ar-Pharazon the Golden" was a doublet like Bree-hill?
Surely Tar-Calion is similar in origin to "ancalime"? With the 'cal-'
bit meaning 'bright' or 'light' or something, as in Calaquendi (Elves of
the Light).
So Tar-Calion would mean "Bright King" or something? And wouldn't "the
Golden" just be added to that to form something like "The Bright Golden
One" or some suitably megalomanic title for this despot.
Mark Edelstein
tranliteration, though I'm no expert in such matters) is pomegranate in
Hebrew. They were a fairly common religious symbol.
the softrat
<greg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Greg, the only one of these name assonances which Tolkien copped to
was 'Atalante = Atlantis". Otherwise, the Etymologies and other extant
writings rather suggest otherwise. Tolkien knew very well that his
myth of the Whelming of Numenor was a reflection of the Atlantis Myth.
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Not the brightest crayon in the box, now, are we?
the softrat
>
>Some of the above are accidents, one of them (Atalante) being a very
>fortuitous one.
Not so, Oh Alternating One! (First, you memorise HoME ....)
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"If your attack is going too well, you're probably walking into
an ambush." - Infantry Journal
the softrat
I believe that Tolkien knew well what 'incanus' meant in Latin and
used it because he was charmed by the fact that it could be give an
Elvish etymology also. So also his use of the word 'orthanc' as both
Elvish and Rohirric (i.e. Anglo-saxon). I'm sure that these kinds of
plays of word appealed to him immensely. (I am rather fond of them
myself.)
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Keep this up and we'll have a vicious triangle.
the softrat
address @ bottom of message) wrote:
>
> Reading the Bible lately, I noticed that "Rimmon" is the
>name of a place (I think even the name of a hill) in it. There
>were a few other names that caught my eye. Of course "Nimrod"
>is a person in the Bible.
>
Sam Davies
> On Tue, 24 May 2005 03:38:49 GMT,
> Gregory Hernandez <greg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > As we have been discussing the Appendices to the LotR in the CotW
> > discussions, I was wondering if it had been commented on just how much
> > assonance there is between names in Tolkien's history and names in history
> > and myth. Such as:
> >
> > Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs
>
> This one I can buy to some extent.
>
> > Gil-Galad = Gilgamesh
>
> Pure coincidence. The two characters have nothing in common other than
> being kings.
>
> > Atalante = Atlantis/Atlanteans
>
> A very happy linguistic accident.
I think not. A paradise island that was completely flooded after they
angered the gods? Sounds familiar to me...
Jens Kilian
> So the name "Ar-Pharazon the Golden" was a doublet like Bree-hill?
I didn't actually check this; I think that I may have remembered wrong here,
and "the Golden" was only a byname, not a translation.
John W. Kennedy
> Greg, the only one of these name assonances which Tolkien copped to
> was 'Atalante = Atlantis". Otherwise, the Etymologies and other extant
> writings rather suggest otherwise. Tolkien knew very well that his
> myth of the Whelming of Numenor was a reflection of the Atlantis Myth.
What about the rather obvious "Vala" = (German) "Wala"?
--
John W. Kennedy
"The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have
always objected to being governed at all."
-- G. K. Chesterton. "The Man Who Was Thursday"
Gregory Hernandez
>
> --
> Not the brightest crayon in the box, now, are we?
correct. you are not.
Steve Morrison
I just checked the Index to the Silmarillion, and the name Ar-Pharazon
is glossed as 'The Golden' -- in inverted commas, which means it's a
direct translation.
the softrat
Awwwwww......you noticed!
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"I notice that you still think that vulgar is 'strong'. It's
not; it's weak. It demonstrates a lack of vocabulary, courtesy,
culture, education, and limber mental processes." -- the
softrat, 6/25/99
Christopher Kreuzer
> Jens Kilian wrote:
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>
>>> So the name "Ar-Pharazon the Golden" was a doublet like Bree-hill?
>>
>> I didn't actually check this; I think that I may have remembered
>> wrong here, and "the Golden" was only a byname, not a translation.
>>
> is glossed as 'The Golden' -- in inverted commas, which means it's a
> direct translation.
Hmm. It looks like that, but the introduction to the index says that
these translations are for Elvish names. It doesn't say that _only_
Elvish names are translated, but Pharazon is Adunaic, so I'm not certain
what is going on here.
1) We need some references to what ever scraps of Adunaic Tolkien
translated for us. Does anyone have a definitive source for what
Pharazon or other bits of Adunaic mean? For example, Arnor is glossed as
'Land of the King', in the same way that the 'ar-' stem is glossed in
the Appendix to /The Silmarillion/ as "the prefix of the Adunaic names
of the Kings of Numenor was derived from this", but is 'Ar' borrowed
into Adunaic from an Elvish language?
2) Are the Quenya names of the Kings of Numenor the same as the Aduniac
ones? ie. Are they direct translations? We know that Ar-Inziladun
changed his name to Tar-Palantir, and that Ar-Pharazon's Quenya name was
Tar-Calion, and that Ar-Adunakhor's Quenya name was Tar-Herunumen, and
that Tar-Miriel's name was changed to Ar-Zimraphel, but which of these
are changes and which are direct translations (if any)?
3) There is a much greater (indeed complete) list of the Quenya names of
the Kings and Queens of Numenor in /Unfinished Tales/, plus some of
their bynames (see the index and the 'Line of Elros' section).
The oft-used phrase "Quenya name of..." seems to imply that the names
are not translations (as the phrase would then be "Quenya form of...")
but I'd really like some confirmation either way. And the phrase
"Ar-Pharazon the Golden" seems mostly used as if "The Golden" is a
byname (as Tar-Atanamir was variously called 'The Great' and 'The
Unwilling', and the Kings of Rohan had various bynames such as Eorl the
Young, Aldor the Old, Eomer Eadig, Theoden Ednew, Frealaf Hildeson, Helm
Hammerhand), but that index entry does seem to imply Pharazon means 'the
Golden'.
Other examples are: Arvedui, called 'Last-King - which does seem to be a
translation according to Malbeth the Seer; Tarostar Romendacil I (the
first of the East-victors); Tarannon Falastur (Lord of the Coasts);
Atanatar II Alcarin (The Glorious); Ciryaher Hyarmendacil
(South-victor); Teluehtar Umbardacil (Umbar-victor); Minalcar Romendacil
II (the second East-victor); Mardil Voronwe (the Steadfast); and of
course Elessar Telcontar (Strider).
Yuk Tang
news:WYele.40017$G8.2...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:
> 1) We need some references to what ever scraps of Adunaic Tolkien
> translated for us. Does anyone have a definitive source for what
> Pharazon or other bits of Adunaic mean? For example, Arnor is
> glossed as 'Land of the King', in the same way that the 'ar-' stem
> is glossed in the Appendix to /The Silmarillion/ as "the prefix of
> the Adunaic names of the Kings of Numenor was derived from this",
> but is 'Ar' borrowed into Adunaic from an Elvish language?
>
> 2) Are the Quenya names of the Kings of Numenor the same as the
> Aduniac ones? ie. Are they direct translations? We know that
> Ar-Inziladun changed his name to Tar-Palantir, and that
> Ar-Pharazon's Quenya name was Tar-Calion, and that Ar-Adunakhor's
> Quenya name was Tar-Herunumen, and that Tar-Miriel's name was
> changed to Ar-Zimraphel, but which of these are changes and which
> are direct translations (if any)?
I'd always assumed that Adunaic was a mixture of the language the
Atani spoke before they crossed the Ered Luin plus a strong strain of
Sindarin. The Sindarin influences can be seen in ar- and adun-, but
the non-Sindarin part can be seen in the frequency of the letter z
(which would have been represented in Sind by dh, eg. Hadhodrond, and
in Quen by s, eg. Isil).
> 3) There is a much greater (indeed complete) list of the Quenya
> names of the Kings and Queens of Numenor in /Unfinished Tales/,
> plus some of their bynames (see the index and the 'Line of Elros'
> section).
>
> The oft-used phrase "Quenya name of..." seems to imply that the
> names are not translations (as the phrase would then be "Quenya
> form of...") but I'd really like some confirmation either way. And
> the phrase "Ar-Pharazon the Golden" seems mostly used as if "The
> Golden" is a byname (as Tar-Atanamir was variously called 'The
> Great' and 'The Unwilling', and the Kings of Rohan had various
> bynames such as Eorl the Young, Aldor the Old, Eomer Eadig,
> Theoden Ednew, Frealaf Hildeson, Helm Hammerhand), but that index
> entry does seem to imply Pharazon means 'the Golden'.
If we assume that Adunaic is Numenorean, then Ar-Adunakhor seems to
map directly to Tar-Herunumen. Also compare with the various titles
of William I of Normandy and England.
> Other examples are: Arvedui, called 'Last-King - which does seem
> to be a translation according to Malbeth the Seer; Tarostar
> Romendacil I (the first of the East-victors); Tarannon Falastur
> (Lord of the Coasts); Atanatar II Alcarin (The Glorious); Ciryaher
> Hyarmendacil (South-victor); Teluehtar Umbardacil (Umbar-victor);
> Minalcar Romendacil II (the second East-victor); Mardil Voronwe
> (the Steadfast); and of course Elessar Telcontar (Strider).
Emperor Taizong of Tang China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Shimin
Family name: Li
Given name: Shimin
Temple (regal) name: Taizong
Posthumous name: Emperor Wen Wu Dasheng Daguang Xiao
--
Cheers, ymt.
Halion
> Númenóreans (Numinous ancestors—I know, not a name, but the similarity is
> still there IMHO)
Tolkien wrote in a footnote to the letter (to Milton Waldman and not
dated, but probably written late in 1951) published as no. 131 in THE
LETTERS OF J.R.R. TOLKIEN:
“Númenóre means in ‘Elvish’ simply Westernesse or Land in the
West, and is not related to numen numinous, or νούμενον!”
And in no. 276 (12 September 1965, to Dick Plotz, ‘Thain’ of the
Tolkien Society of America):
“C. S. Lewis was one of the only three persons who have so far read
all or a considerable part of my ‘mythology’ of the First and
Second Ages, which had already been in the main lines constructed
before we met. He had the peculiarity that he liked to be read to. All
that he knew of my ‘matter’ was what his capacious but not
infallible memory retained from my reading to him as sole audience. His
spelling numinor is a hearing error, aided, no doubt, by his
association of the name with Latin nūmen, nūmina, and the adjective
‘numinous’. Unfortunate, since the name has no such connexions, and
has no reference to ‘divinity’ or sense of its presence. It is a
construction from the Eldarin base √NDU ‘below, down; descend’;
Q. núme ‘going down, occident’; númen ‘the direction or region
of the sunset’ + nóre ‘land’ as an inhabited area.”
Gregory Hernandez
Gregory Hernandez
probably not adding a thing to the conversation, either. Kids. Yawn.
the softrat
<greg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Oops, I read a soft-head's post. I promise not to do THAT again.
>
BOOWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me
with questions?
Öjevind Lång
>As we have been discussing the Appendices to the LotR in the CotW
discussions, I was wondering if it had been commented on just how much
assonance there is between names in Tolkien's history and names in
history
and myth. Such as:
>Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs
Gil-Galad = Gilgamesh
Atalante = Atlantis/Atlanteans
Eldar = Elders
Numenoreans (Numinous ancestors - I know, not a name, but the
similarity is
still there IMHO)
>I imagine that as a linguist, these were not accidents. Are there other
names or phrases that have caught your eye (ear)?
Some of the others may be coincidental, but Atalante definitely is not,
particularly since it is known that Tolkien had a recurring dream that
he called his "Atlantis dream" - a dream in which the high sea comes in
and drowns an entire land.
Another obvious loan from a real language is the Elven name for Tom
Bombadil: Iarwain Ben-Adar, which we are told means "Oldest, Son of
Nobody". Since "ben" is used for "son of" in Semitic languages, it
would be a strecth to say that Tolkien was not influenced by that.
Also, with regard to the Hobbitish name Ranugad ("Stay-at-home"), it
is a fact that in Old Norse (and modern Icelandic), there is a word
"rann" which means "house". It is also found in the modern English
"ransack" and the modern Swedish "rannsaka" ("investigate [in a
trial]") and "husrannsakan" ("house search", where we find a bit of the
tautology so common when a word alsoes its original meaning).
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
>Some of the above are accidents, one of them (Atalante) being a very
fortuitous one.
I'm afraid you are mistaken; we have Tolkien's own word for it that he
had Atlantis in mind.
Incidentally, when replying to Gregory Hernandez, I forgot a coiple
of other very clear connections between a real word and one advanced by
Tolkien. One is Arda for "the Earth". I think it fairly certain that
this was inspired by the German "Erde" (OG "Erda"), cognate with the
English "Earth" and meaning the same thing.
Another clear connection between a real word and a Tolkien one is
"crebain" (singular form "craban"), the name for those sinister crows
that were spying out Dunland when the Fellowship passed through it. In
Old Germanic, the word for "crow" was "hraban", which later evolved
into the German "Rabe", the Scanidnaivan "ravn" and the English
"raven". Linguistically, it has been known for words in a language to
alter an initial "h" to a "k", and that's what Tolkien did.
Öjevind
Larry Swain
I think he was referring to the form of the name, not to the story
itself. I recall Tolkien saying this somewhere too, that the happy
accident of the form of Quenya atalante (the downfallen) being so close
to Atlantis and atlantic, but at the moment I can not find it.
RPN
Öjevind Lång wrote:
> Another obvious loan from a real language is the Elven name for Tom
> Bombadil: Iarwain Ben-Adar, which we are told means "Oldest, Son of
> Nobody". Since "ben" is used for "son of" in Semitic languages, it
> would be a strecth to say that Tolkien was not influenced by that.
Unless I'm mistaken, "Iarwain Ben-Adar" is Sindarin for "Oldest
Without-a-Father." There's no "son of" in it.
RPN
Morthond
Öjevind Lång wrote:
> Also, with regard to the Hobbitish name Ranugad ("Stay-at-home"), it
> is a fact that in Old Norse (and modern Icelandic), there is a word
> "rann" which means "house". It is also found in the modern English
> "ransack" and the modern Swedish "rannsaka" ("investigate [in a
> trial]") and "husrannsakan" ("house search", where we find a bit of the
> tautology so common when a word alsoes its original meaning).
>
> Öjevind
Ranugad?
never read that, where did you get it from?
:-?
Morthond
John Jones
news:pT4le.48552$HJ2....@fe11.lga...
> the softrat wrote:
> > Greg, the only one of these name assonances which Tolkien copped to
> > was 'Atalante = Atlantis". Otherwise, the Etymologies and other extant
> > writings rather suggest otherwise. Tolkien knew very well that his
> > myth of the Whelming of Numenor was a reflection of the Atlantis Myth.
>
> What about the rather obvious "Vala" = (German) "Wala"?
>
TT Arvind
>
> Ranugad?
>
> never read that, where did you get it from?
It is the "actual" name of the Old Gaffer, which Tolkien translated to
'Hamfast'. See Part II of Appendix F ("On Translation").
--
Arvind
Where there's life there's hope; and need of vittles.
- Hamfast Gamgee
TT Arvind
>
> I think he was referring to the form of the name, not to the story
> itself. I recall Tolkien saying this somewhere too, that the happy
> accident of the form of Quenya atalante (the downfallen) being so close
> to Atlantis and atlantic, but at the moment I can not find it.
You may be thinking of Letter 257:
"It is a curious chance that the stem 'talat' used in Q for 'slipping,
sliding, falling down' of which /atalantie/ is a normal (in Q) noun-
formation, should so much resemble Atlantis."
So the fact that Quenya could a word sounding so similar to Atlantis
*and* with a very apt meaning was a coincidence, which Tolkien then
deliberately took advantage of.
--
Arvind
Slick's Third Law of the Universe: There are two types of dirt --- The
dark kind, which is attracted to light objects, and the light kind,
which is attracted to dark objects.
Prai Jei
<1117206364....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
> Another obvious loan from a real language is the Elven name for Tom
> Bombadil: Iarwain Ben-Adar, which we are told means "Oldest, Son of
> Nobody". Since "ben" is used for "son of" in Semitic languages, it
> would be a strecth to say that Tolkien was not influenced by that.
Iar = Old by double translation from Welsh?
Welsh "iar" = English "hen"
Welsh "hen" = English "old"
--
A couple of questions. How do I stop the wires short-circuiting, and what's
this nylon washer for?
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
the softrat
wrote:
>Wes đu Larry Swain hal!
>>
>> I think he was referring to the form of the name, not to the story
>> itself. I recall Tolkien saying this somewhere too, that the happy
>> accident of the form of Quenya atalante (the downfallen) being so close
>> to Atlantis and atlantic, but at the moment I can not find it.
>
>You may be thinking of Letter 257:
>
>"It is a curious chance that the stem 'talat' used in Q for 'slipping,
>sliding, falling down' of which /atalantie/ is a normal (in Q) noun-
>formation, should so much resemble Atlantis."
>
>So the fact that Quenya could a word sounding so similar to Atlantis
>*and* with a very apt meaning was a coincidence, which Tolkien then
>deliberately took advantage of.
*I* think that he took advantage of it so much because he deliberately
created the roots to arrive at the desired conclusion. A 'curious
chance', my foot! As another Oxonian said, "Curiouser and
curiouser...."
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"Aim towards the enemy." - Instruction printed on U.S. Army
rocket launcher
the softrat
'Charlie'?
Christopher Kreuzer
> "John Jones" <jo...@jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
[Tolkien's words like real words]
<snip>
>> Or 'Tuna'?
>>
> 'Charlie'?
Or Turin, which my spellchecker insists is an Italian city...
sig...@binet.is
Torino is the name of the city, perhaps you should rewind your
spellchecker....
Gregory Hernandez
[snip]
> *I* think that he took advantage of it so much because he deliberately
> created the roots to arrive at the desired conclusion. A 'curious
> chance', my foot! As another Oxonian said, "Curiouser and
> curiouser...."
>
lines -- what other words or phrases might have been deliberately created to
produces similar assonances with words/names from the "real world".
GRH
Prai Jei
<1117237759.2...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
Are you giving us a little bull there?
(Yes, Torino is the native name, Turin is an exonym.)
Graham Lockwood
(in article <d77qbk$e9d$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>):
And the Noldor did dwell in Tuna-Upon-Crackers?
---
Graham
Flame of the West
> *I* think that he took advantage of it so much because he deliberately
> created the roots to arrive at the desired conclusion. A 'curious
> chance', my foot! As another Oxonian said, "Curiouser and
> curiouser...."
Are you calling Tolkien a liar? If so, I must ask you
to step outside, unless of course you are already outside
reading this on your laptop.
-- FotW
"The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimli."
-- Legolas, immortal Elf
TT Arvind
>
> Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs
> Gil-Galad = Gilgamesh
> Atalante = Atlantis/Atlanteans
> Eldar = Elders
> Numenoreans (Numinous ancestors - I know, not a name, but the similarity is
> still there IMHO)
>
> I imagine that as a linguist, these were not accidents. Are there other
> names or phrases that have caught your eye (ear)?
I have often wondered if the choice of Frodo had something to do with
the Norse "Frode" meaning "wise". There is also Gerontius, which bears
some resemblance to Greek "Geron" (old man), "Maia", which is also a
character in Greek mythology (One of the Pleiades, and the mother of
Hermes), and the similarity of the name "Ingwe" with the Norse god
"Ing".
--
Arvind
"But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all
who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed
at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at
Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan
Öjevind Lång
Ben-Adar is, I believe, translated as "fatherless". I frankly find it
unlikely that Tolkien was unaffected by the fact that "ben" in names
like Ben-Hur, Ben-Gurion and Ben Bella are patronymics.
Öjevind
Matthew Bladen
I don't of course know the thought process behind and influences on the
construction, but here ben- is a lenited form of pen- , 'lacking,
without' that can also be found as one reading of the word 'Pendi' in
Quendi and Eldar (HoME 11). If the Sindarin form was "son of nobody"
rather than "without father" I would be much more inclined to think that
the Semitic patronymic was a close influence. The most we can say with
confidence is that he wasn't sufficiently unhappy with the similarity to
devise a different way of expressing the same idea.
There are some interesting instances, particularly in the very early
work on the languages, of words that we can be certain are there to
explain real-world words of uncertain origin. One such is Noldorin
peleg, 'axe', which is far too close to ancient Greek pelekus to be
coincidental.
--
Matthew
Robert J. Kolker
> construction, but here ben- is a lenited form of pen- , 'lacking,
> without' that can also be found as one reading of the word 'Pendi' in
> Quendi and Eldar (HoME 11). If the Sindarin form was "son of nobody"
Liek Joshua bin None. Sorry. I couldn't resist.
Bob Kolker
Derek Broughton
> So the fact that Quenya could [have?] a word sounding so similar
> to Atlantis
> *and* with a very apt meaning was a coincidence, which Tolkien then
> deliberately took advantage of.
Coincidence? Tolkien _created_ Quenya, and a number of other languages.
How coincidental can it be?
--
derek
Derek Broughton
Which is what I thought you were getting at. The "curiouser" part is that
only the softrat came to your defence :-)
--
derek
Morthond
:-)
Larry Swain
TT Arvind wrote:
> Wes šu Larry Swain hal!
>
>>I think he was referring to the form of the name, not to the story
>>itself. I recall Tolkien saying this somewhere too, that the happy
>>accident of the form of Quenya atalante (the downfallen) being so close
>>to Atlantis and atlantic, but at the moment I can not find it.
>
>
> You may be thinking of Letter 257:
>
> "It is a curious chance that the stem 'talat' used in Q for 'slipping,
> sliding, falling down' of which /atalantie/ is a normal (in Q) noun-
> formation, should so much resemble Atlantis."
>
> So the fact that Quenya could a word sounding so similar to Atlantis
> *and* with a very apt meaning was a coincidence, which Tolkien then
> deliberately took advantage of.
>
Yes, that's the reference! Thanks very much. So basically he had the
Atlantis story in mind, but did not construct the Quenya name atalante
to mimic the name Atlantis; that they sound and look similar is chance,
a happy one, that as you say, he took advantage of. Thanks Arvind!
Count Menelvagor
there seem to be globs of old elvish roots in the Etymologies that are
fairly close to synonymous terms in various IE lagnuages, such as ATAR
"father". i once made a lsit of them, but don't have it on me atm. my
favorite are PHEW "disgusting, repellant" (or some such idea) and MASAG
"knead."
Ost...@theonering.net
the softrat <sof...@pobox.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 27 May 2005 20:56:24 +0100, TT Arvind <ttar...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Wes đu Larry Swain hal!
>>>
>>> I think he was referring to the form of the name, not to the story
>>> itself. I recall Tolkien saying this somewhere too, that the happy
>>> accident of the form of Quenya atalante (the downfallen) being so close
>>> to Atlantis and atlantic, but at the moment I can not find it.
>>
>>You may be thinking of Letter 257:
>>
>>"It is a curious chance that the stem 'talat' used in Q for 'slipping,
>>sliding, falling down' of which /atalantie/ is a normal (in Q) noun-
>>formation, should so much resemble Atlantis."
>>
>>So the fact that Quenya could a word sounding so similar to Atlantis
>>*and* with a very apt meaning was a coincidence, which Tolkien then
>>deliberately took advantage of.
>
>*I* think that he took advantage of it so much because he deliberately
>created the roots to arrive at the desired conclusion. A 'curious
>chance', my foot! As another Oxonian said, "Curiouser and
>curiouser...."
Except that 'TALAT' was in Qenya back in the days of the Qenya
Lexicon, ca 1920. At that time, the story of Numenor was nothing
more than his recurring dream of a great wave overwhelming a nameless
land.
Ostadan
Larry Swain
the softrat wrote:
> On Fri, 27 May 2005 20:56:24 +0100, TT Arvind <ttar...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Wes ğu Larry Swain hal!
>>
>>>I think he was referring to the form of the name, not to the story
>>>itself. I recall Tolkien saying this somewhere too, that the happy
>>>accident of the form of Quenya atalante (the downfallen) being so close
>>>to Atlantis and atlantic, but at the moment I can not find it.
>>
>>You may be thinking of Letter 257:
>>
>>"It is a curious chance that the stem 'talat' used in Q for 'slipping,
>>sliding, falling down' of which /atalantie/ is a normal (in Q) noun-
>>formation, should so much resemble Atlantis."
>>
>>So the fact that Quenya could a word sounding so similar to Atlantis
>>*and* with a very apt meaning was a coincidence, which Tolkien then
>>deliberately took advantage of.
>
>
> *I* think that he took advantage of it so much because he deliberately
> created the roots to arrive at the desired conclusion. A 'curious
> chance', my foot! As another Oxonian said, "Curiouser and
> curiouser...."
Perhaps, but then this basically means that the Professor is lieing
through his teeth. Possible, but not something I find probable.
Larry Swain
TT Arvind wrote:
> Wes đu Gregory Hernandez hal!
>
>>Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs
>>Gil-Galad = Gilgamesh
>>Atalante = Atlantis/Atlanteans
>>Eldar = Elders
>>Numenoreans (Numinous ancestors - I know, not a name, but the similarity is
>>still there IMHO)
>>
>>I imagine that as a linguist, these were not accidents. Are there other
>>names or phrases that have caught your eye (ear)?
>
>
> I have often wondered if the choice of Frodo had something to do with
> the Norse "Frode" meaning "wise". There is also Gerontius, which bears
> some resemblance to Greek "Geron" (old man), "Maia", which is also a
> character in Greek mythology (One of the Pleiades, and the mother of
> Hermes), and the similarity of the name "Ingwe" with the Norse god
> "Ing".
Yes and one could add Gamling the Old as well as others (Earendil is a
famous one as well.)
the softrat
<thes...@operamail.com> wrote:
>
>Perhaps, but then this basically means that the Professor is lieing
>through his teeth. Possible, but not something I find probable.
It is NOT a lie. It is a contrived coincidence.
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
I have kleptomania. When it gets bad, I take something for it.
Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
> On 24 May 2005 20:58:28 GMT, m...@privacy.net (Jamie Andrews; real
> address @ bottom of message) wrote:
>> Reading the Bible lately, I noticed that "Rimmon" is the
>>name of a place (I think even the name of a hill) in it.
> However, we are groping for the bottom of the barrel here.....
Sorry to leave this thrust unparried for so long.
I think the "Rimmon" thing is a bit higher up in the barrel
than the bottom. It's a place-name used several times in the
OT, and I must have noticed it most strikingly in Judges. There
it is "the rock Rimmon" where the remnant of the tribe of
Benjamin hides out. One website I just found says that they
think it's "the present village of Rummon, 'on the very edge of
the hill country, with a precipitous descent toward the Jordan
valley'".
As soon as I saw the name in Judges I was reminded of
Ghan-Buri-Ghan and his use of "Rimmon" to mean "Min-Rimmon" and
"Din" to mean "Amon Din". These are two of the beacon mountains
in the White Mountains, on the northern side of the mountains.
In having Ghan call them by these names, Tolkien's probable
intended implication is that "Rimmon" and "Din" were the older
forms of the names, and "Min-Rimmon" and "Amon Din" were
modernized by the addition of an element meaning "mountain" or
"peak".
--Jamie. (a Dover edition designed for years of use!)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
Larry Swain
Rather, that Ghan's forms are shortened from the longer, proper names.