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Chapter of the Week - The Hobbit - Chapter 3

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AC

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Sep 15, 2003, 1:00:19 AM9/15/03
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The Hobbit - Chapter 3 - A Short Rest

1. Synopsis
After the harrowing and near-fatal incident with the trolls, the thirteen
dwarves, one wizard and one hobbit make their way with some difficulty
through a land of unexpected valleys, gulleys and dangerous bogs. Even with
Gandalf's aid, it takes some doing to find Rivendell.

In Rivendell we meet our first Elves, a rather silly lot who make a good
joke out of thirteen dwarves and one very out of place hobbit. Bilbo shows
his love of Elves, while the Dwarves show their general feeling that Elves
are foolish folk. Clearly they know something of Thorin's business, and
Gandalf has to caution them to quiet their tongues.

At last they meet Elrond, who is introduced as an elf-friend, descended
from the first men in the North who aided Elves against the Goblins.
Elrond, showing himself quite the loremaster, recognizes the moon letters on
Thorin's map, and reads to them the puzzling instructions "Stand by the grey
stone when the thrus knocks, and the setting sun with the last night of
Durin's Day will shine upon the key-hole."

The company stays in Rivendell fourteen days before departing on Midsummer's
Morning for the Misty Mountains and the Wilderland.

2. Points of Interest
This has become for me one of the most interesting chapters in The Hobbit
since I began delving into Middle Earth. We catch a glimpse of the Edain,
Beleriand and descendants of Edain and Elves with Elrond as their chief.

A few points that pop up:

- It seems very odd that Gandalf, someone who clearly knows Elrond, and who,
from what we see in LotR, knows his way around Rivendell, would have as much
trouble as he did getting the Dwarves from the ford to the Last Homely
House.

- The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk, though the
narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin and his
friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think...") They
don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in
Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he
might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.

- As the synopsis points out, we have our first glimpses of the Dunedain.
What I wonder is whether this was present in the pre-LotR editions of The
Hobbit or not. The paragraph in question is this:

"The master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people whose
fathers came into the strange stories before the beginning of History, the
wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men in the North. In
those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and
heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was
their chief."

- Notably we also here Gondolin mentioned, as well as the High Elves of the
West (a direct reference to the Noldor and an indirect reference to
Valinor). It does seem remarkable that Turgon's blade would end up in
Gandalf's hands, but somehow I can't think of a better place for it.

- It almost seems as if Elrond saw Dale and the Lonely Mountain before the
Desolation of Smaug:

"He [Elrond] took it [the map] and gazed at it... and he grieved to remember
the ruin of the town of Dale and its merry bells, and the burned banks of
the bright River Running."

- Another interesting point is that we also see Durin mentioned. Again,
could anyone with an original edition tell me if this was present, or was
this a post-LotR change?

- We see one of a number of rather extraordinary coincidences in the history
of the Ring when Thorin and Co. just happen to arrive in Rivendell in time
for the moon to be in the right phase to read the moon letters.

- As to the matter of the moon letters, this seems an example of magic
attributed to Dwarves. The only other example that comes to mind is Turin's
dragon mask. Clearly dwarves had some ability in this regard.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao...@alberni.net

the softrat

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Sep 15, 2003, 1:25:21 AM9/15/03
to
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:00:19 GMT, in alt.fan.tolkien AC
<tao...@alberni.net> wrote:
>2. Points of Interest

Remember: we see all these things through the eyes (and experience) of
Bilbo.


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
When you're talking about me, keep your mouth shut.

put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru

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Sep 15, 2003, 9:36:19 AM9/15/03
to
AC wrote:
> The Hobbit - Chapter 3 - A Short Rest
>
> 1. Synopsis
[snip]

> 2. Points of Interest
> This has become for me one of the most interesting chapters in The Hobbit
> since I began delving into Middle Earth. We catch a glimpse of the Edain,
> Beleriand and descendants of Edain and Elves with Elrond as their chief.
>
> A few points that pop up:
>
> - It seems very odd that Gandalf, someone who clearly knows Elrond, and who,
> from what we see in LotR, knows his way around Rivendell, would have as much
> trouble as he did getting the Dwarves from the ford to the Last Homely
> House.
In the story, Elrond could not rely on secrecy alone. _My guess_ is that
he had the power to transform terrain (create new traps with water and
drain old ones) and actually change the path to the LHH quite regularly.
Hence the white path markers.

> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk, though the
> narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin and his
> friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think...") They
> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in
> Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he
> might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.

We must admit that in the Hobbit and the LotR Elves are as human as Men
themselves. And behaviour of the Elves in Rivendell certainly parallels
the episode in the Council of Elrond where Pippin is so foolish as to
name Frodo the Lord of the Ring (is it a prophecy or the first sign of
the Ring's influence on Pippin - I don't know). Life behind Elrond's
protection obviously makes one forget about the dangers outside.

> - As the synopsis points out, we have our first glimpses of the Dunedain.
> What I wonder is whether this was present in the pre-LotR editions of The
> Hobbit or not. The paragraph in question is this:

[ain't got the AH, snipping]

> - Notably we also here Gondolin mentioned, as well as the High Elves of the
> West (a direct reference to the Noldor and an indirect reference to
> Valinor). It does seem remarkable that Turgon's blade would end up in
> Gandalf's hands, but somehow I can't think of a better place for it.

A silly question from me: what weapon did Elrond bear during the Last
Alliance?



> - It almost seems as if Elrond saw Dale and the Lonely Mountain before the
> Desolation of Smaug:
> "He [Elrond] took it [the map] and gazed at it... and he grieved to remember
> the ruin of the town of Dale and its merry bells, and the burned banks of
> the bright River Running."

Story-external explanation is rather evident: this ties up characters.
Story-internally, there may be more than a dozen reasons for Elrond's
trip to the East (e.g. a symposium on civil engineering or a secret date
with Alatar :^).

[snip a question on Durin]

> - We see one of a number of rather extraordinary coincidences in the history
> of the Ring when Thorin and Co. just happen to arrive in Rivendell in time
> for the moon to be in the right phase to read the moon letters.

I wonder, what's the use of ultra-secret moon letters?

> - As to the matter of the moon letters, this seems an example of magic
> attributed to Dwarves. The only other example that comes to mind is Turin's
> dragon mask. Clearly dwarves had some ability in this regard.

Eh. What about the secret door and the weird business with the thrush?
It takes more than ordinary magic (or even technology) to devise such a
cunning lock system: the Sun, the Moon, the thrush, a snail, the key.

Of course, nowadays there are astronavigational sensors and microphones
to replicate the secret door. Perhaps Arthur C. Clarke was right after
all.

Archie
--
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."

Pradera

unread,
Sep 15, 2003, 10:21:10 AM9/15/03
to
On 15 wrz 2003, <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> scribbled
loosely:

>> - Notably we also here Gondolin mentioned, as well as the High Elves
>> of the West (a direct reference to the Noldor and an indirect
>> reference to Valinor). It does seem remarkable that Turgon's blade
>> would end up in Gandalf's hands, but somehow I can't think of a
>> better place for it.
>
> A silly question from me: what weapon did Elrond bear during the Last
> Alliance?

A trumpet ;) (he was a herald, after all)

--
Pradera
---
'Ronald Reagan once said that a great leader is simply an
average man who surrounds himself with the best.
That's why I never vote Republican'
Scott Summers, 'Cyclops'

http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/
http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/

Morgil

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Sep 15, 2003, 10:35:00 AM9/15/03
to

<put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> kirjoitti
viestissä:MPG.19cffa8282...@news.mtu-net.ru...

> A silly question from me: what weapon did Elrond bear during the Last
> Alliance?

Perhaps one of Feanor's swords?

http://snurl.com/2ckn

Morgil


put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru

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Sep 15, 2003, 10:48:21 AM9/15/03
to
Pradera wrote:
> On 15 wrz 2003, <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> scribbled
> loosely:
>
> >> - Notably we also here Gondolin mentioned, as well as the High Elves
> >> of the West (a direct reference to the Noldor and an indirect
> >> reference to Valinor). It does seem remarkable that Turgon's blade
> >> would end up in Gandalf's hands, but somehow I can't think of a
> >> better place for it.
> >
> > A silly question from me: what weapon did Elrond bear during the Last
> > Alliance?
>
> A trumpet ;) (he was a herald, after all)
Well, I entered the same line in my posting, and erased it tout de suite.
Besides his trumpet, did he have any sword/axe/spear/mace/nuntjaku/dagger
when he was near Mt.Doom?
(Next time you ask me about Cirdan's weapons, expect a curt reply "an
oar".)

BTW, did Elrond have a loud voice?

Archie

--
"I have told my sons that they are not under any
circumstances to take part in massacres, and that
the news of massacres of enemies is not to fill them
with satisfaction or glee."

Kurt Vonnegut, _Slaughterhouse-Five_

put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru

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Sep 15, 2003, 10:52:25 AM9/15/03
to
Morgil wrote:
>
> <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> kirjoitti
> viestissä:MPG.19cffa8282...@news.mtu-net.ru...
> > A silly question from me: what weapon did Elrond bear during the Last
> > Alliance?
>
> Perhaps one of Feanor's swords?
Tnakhs you. Not implausible, after all.

Henriette

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Sep 15, 2003, 12:48:55 PM9/15/03
to
AC <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message news:<slrnbmahr2...@namibia.tandem>...

>
> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk, though the
> narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin and his
> friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think...") They
> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in
> Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he
> might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.
>
A nice and inspiring introduction AC, thank you! As for Silliness,
maybe JRRT meant to say that seriousness is sometimes overestimated
and "silliness" underestimated. In that case, he and I would be of
like mind in that respect.

Henriette

Een Wilde Ier

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Sep 15, 2003, 1:13:18 PM9/15/03
to

But the 'narrator' [SI] is Bilbo, who may very well be embellishing for
his audience.

[SI] = Story Internal. Too much typing!

--
Een Wilde Ier

A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely
foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. - Douglas
Adams

Een Wilde Ier

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Sep 15, 2003, 1:14:19 PM9/15/03
to
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru wrote:

> Pradera wrote:
>
>>On 15 wrz 2003, <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> scribbled
>>loosely:
>>
>>
>>>>- Notably we also here Gondolin mentioned, as well as the High Elves
>>>>of the West (a direct reference to the Noldor and an indirect
>>>>reference to Valinor). It does seem remarkable that Turgon's blade
>>>>would end up in Gandalf's hands, but somehow I can't think of a
>>>>better place for it.
>>>
>>>A silly question from me: what weapon did Elrond bear during the Last
>>>Alliance?
>>
>>A trumpet ;) (he was a herald, after all)
>
> Well, I entered the same line in my posting, and erased it tout de suite.
> Besides his trumpet, did he have any sword/axe/spear/mace/nuntjaku/dagger
> when he was near Mt.Doom?
> (Next time you ask me about Cirdan's weapons, expect a curt reply "an
> oar".)
>
> BTW, did Elrond have a loud voice?

Well, he was certainly able to blow his own trumpet loudly enough (well,
what *did* he do that was so exceptional?)

--
Een Wilde Ier

It would be a mistake for the United States Senate to allow any kind of
human cloning to come out of that chamber. - George W. Bush

AC

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Sep 15, 2003, 1:14:47 PM9/15/03
to
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:36:19 +0400,
<put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote:
> AC wrote:
>> The Hobbit - Chapter 3 - A Short Rest
>>
>> 1. Synopsis
> [snip]
>> 2. Points of Interest
>> This has become for me one of the most interesting chapters in The Hobbit
>> since I began delving into Middle Earth. We catch a glimpse of the Edain,
>> Beleriand and descendants of Edain and Elves with Elrond as their chief.
>>
>> A few points that pop up:
>>
>> - It seems very odd that Gandalf, someone who clearly knows Elrond, and who,
>> from what we see in LotR, knows his way around Rivendell, would have as much
>> trouble as he did getting the Dwarves from the ford to the Last Homely
>> House.
> In the story, Elrond could not rely on secrecy alone. _My guess_ is that
> he had the power to transform terrain (create new traps with water and
> drain old ones) and actually change the path to the LHH quite regularly.
> Hence the white path markers.

Wow! That would indeed be some power. I don't know if I agree, but it's an
interesting idea.

>
>> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk, though the
>> narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin and his
>> friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think...") They
>> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in
>> Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he
>> might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.
> We must admit that in the Hobbit and the LotR Elves are as human as Men
> themselves. And behaviour of the Elves in Rivendell certainly parallels
> the episode in the Council of Elrond where Pippin is so foolish as to
> name Frodo the Lord of the Ring (is it a prophecy or the first sign of
> the Ring's influence on Pippin - I don't know). Life behind Elrond's
> protection obviously makes one forget about the dangers outside.

That's a good point. So one of the effects of the Last Homely House is to
reduce caution. I'm not exactly certain, however, that wagging on about
fitting through keyholes, when Smaug lived at the other end of the
Wilderland, was such a critical security risk, myself.

>
>> - As the synopsis points out, we have our first glimpses of the Dunedain.
>> What I wonder is whether this was present in the pre-LotR editions of The
>> Hobbit or not. The paragraph in question is this:
> [ain't got the AH, snipping]
>
>> - Notably we also here Gondolin mentioned, as well as the High Elves of the
>> West (a direct reference to the Noldor and an indirect reference to
>> Valinor). It does seem remarkable that Turgon's blade would end up in
>> Gandalf's hands, but somehow I can't think of a better place for it.
>
> A silly question from me: what weapon did Elrond bear during the Last
> Alliance?

I don't think we're ever told.

>
>> - It almost seems as if Elrond saw Dale and the Lonely Mountain before the
>> Desolation of Smaug:
>> "He [Elrond] took it [the map] and gazed at it... and he grieved to remember
>> the ruin of the town of Dale and its merry bells, and the burned banks of
>> the bright River Running."
> Story-external explanation is rather evident: this ties up characters.
> Story-internally, there may be more than a dozen reasons for Elrond's
> trip to the East (e.g. a symposium on civil engineering or a secret date
> with Alatar :^).

In the Council of Elrond, Elrond says that it's been a long time since he's
been abroad. I don't have the books in front of me, but when were the Lonely
Mountain and Dale actually settled? If memory serves, it wasn't that long
ago.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao...@alberni.net

AC

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Sep 15, 2003, 1:42:54 PM9/15/03
to
On 15 Sep 2003 09:48:55 -0700,

Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The Hobbit
with the likes of Glorifindel.

Thanks for the kudo, BTW. I haven't written a book report since I was
sixteen, so this was an interesting flashback.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao...@alberni.net

A Tsar Is Born

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Sep 15, 2003, 2:55:10 PM9/15/03
to

"AC" <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
news:slrnbmbugs...@namibia.tandem...

> Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The Hobbit
> with the likes of Glorifindel.

This is a VERY foolish thing to do.
JRRT was decidedly talking DOWN to readers of The Hobbit, and the elves are
principal victims. (The drunken elves of Thranduil also come off poorly.)
It's just a case of: The storyteller adjusts the story to his intended
audience and intended effect.
It CAN'T be squared. Don't worry about it.
Enjoy the damn story.

Yes, Durin and Elrond and Gondolin were all in the pre-LotR Hobbit; they had
all appeared in the material Tolkien had been writing for 20 years. One of
the most magical things about The Hobbit and LotR is this sense of thousands
of years of unknown mythology behind everything, that the characters keep
referring to and we never entirely understand.

It's almost disappointing to actually now have this material....

As for Elrond just happening to hold up the map when the right moon shows up
... one of my complaints about JRRT is just how often things like this DO
happen in the plots of H and LotR ... but it's probably part of his RC
worldview: Providence is guiding the entire business, but we still have to
do our bit to the best of our ability for Providence to be able to take care
of the stuff we can't do.

Tsar Parmathule


Russ

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Sep 15, 2003, 3:05:04 PM9/15/03
to
In article <iWn9b.4468$U41....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>, "A Tsar Is Born"
<Atsarisb...@hotmail.com> writes:

>"AC" <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
>news:slrnbmbugs...@namibia.tandem...
>
>> Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The Hobbit
>> with the likes of Glorifindel.
>
>This is a VERY foolish thing to do.
>JRRT was decidedly talking DOWN to readers of The Hobbit, and the elves are
>principal victims. (The drunken elves of Thranduil also come off poorly.)

Let's not forget, they were mostly Avarin Silvan elves who are decidely less
uptight and much more fun than the Eldar.

<snip>

Russ


"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor"

Een Wilde Ier

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Sep 15, 2003, 3:21:30 PM9/15/03
to
Russ wrote:

> In article <iWn9b.4468$U41....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>, "A Tsar Is Born"
> <Atsarisb...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>"AC" <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
>>news:slrnbmbugs...@namibia.tandem...
>>
>>
>>>Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The Hobbit
>>>with the likes of Glorifindel.
>>
>>This is a VERY foolish thing to do.
>>JRRT was decidedly talking DOWN to readers of The Hobbit, and the elves are
>>principal victims. (The drunken elves of Thranduil also come off poorly.)
>
>
> Let's not forget, they were mostly Avarin Silvan elves who are decidely less
> uptight and much more fun than the Eldar.

More AFT than RABT?

--
Een Wilde Ier

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people
very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams

AC

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Sep 15, 2003, 3:25:31 PM9/15/03
to
On 15 Sep 2003 19:05:04 GMT,
Russ <mcr...@aol.comnojunk> wrote:
> In article <iWn9b.4468$U41....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>, "A Tsar Is Born"
><Atsarisb...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>"AC" <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
>>news:slrnbmbugs...@namibia.tandem...
>>
>>> Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The Hobbit
>>> with the likes of Glorifindel.
>>
>>This is a VERY foolish thing to do.
>>JRRT was decidedly talking DOWN to readers of The Hobbit, and the elves are
>>principal victims. (The drunken elves of Thranduil also come off poorly.)
>
> Let's not forget, they were mostly Avarin Silvan elves who are decidely less
> uptight and much more fun than the Eldar.

In Mirkwood, certainly, but Rivendell?

--
Aaron Clausen

tao...@alberni.net

Russ

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Sep 15, 2003, 3:41:01 PM9/15/03
to
In article <bk53fp$p55bq$1...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de>, Een Wilde Ier
<theu...@hotmail.com> writes:

>Russ wrote:
>
>> In article <iWn9b.4468$U41....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>, "A Tsar Is Born"
>> <Atsarisb...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>>"AC" <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
>>>news:slrnbmbugs...@namibia.tandem...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The Hobbit
>>>>with the likes of Glorifindel.
>>>
>>>This is a VERY foolish thing to do.
>>>JRRT was decidedly talking DOWN to readers of The Hobbit, and the elves are
>>>principal victims. (The drunken elves of Thranduil also come off poorly.)
>>
>>
>> Let's not forget, they were mostly Avarin Silvan elves who are decidely
>less
>> uptight and much more fun than the Eldar.
>
>More AFT than RABT?
>

I said less up tight and more fun; not less intelligent and more neurotic. ;-)

Een Wilde Ier

unread,
Sep 15, 2003, 3:54:14 PM9/15/03
to
Russ wrote:

> In article <bk53fp$p55bq$1...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de>, Een Wilde Ier
> <theu...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>Russ wrote:

<snip>


>>>Let's not forget, they were mostly Avarin Silvan elves who are decidely
>>
>>less
>>
>>>uptight and much more fun than the Eldar.
>>
>>More AFT than RABT?
>>
>
>
> I said less up tight and more fun; not less intelligent

Hey, I ain't seen no Theory of Relativity popping up on RABT recently...

> and more neurotic. ;-)

Are you referring to half of us having killfiled the other half? <g>

Back to the RotK preview - what *is* up with Aragorn's hair colour? Ladies?

--
Een Wilde Ier

Our only hope today lies in our ability to recapture the revolutionary
spirit and go into a sometimes hostile world declaring eternal hostility
to poverty, racism, and militarism. - Martin Luther King Jr.

Raven

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Sep 15, 2003, 4:17:34 PM9/15/03
to
"AC" <tao...@alberni.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:slrnbmbss5...@namibia.tandem...

> On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:36:19 +0400,
> <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote:

> > In the story, Elrond could not rely on secrecy alone. _My guess_ is that
> > he had the power to transform terrain (create new traps with water and
> > drain old ones) and actually change the path to the LHH quite regularly.
> > Hence the white path markers.

> Wow! That would indeed be some power. I don't know if I agree, but it's
> an interesting idea.

Elrond did have a power somewhat related to this, namely to cause a flash
flood in the Bruinen at the ford. Unless he accomplished this by
laboriously building a dam just upstream, which he could collapse at will,
this proves that he did have some power over the landscape. It might have
been shifting the bogs around somewhat, and if the way to Rivendell was
remembered by which bogs to take a left turn at, then this would also serve
to confuse a person who had been there earlier but not recently.

> I'm not exactly certain, however, that wagging on about fitting through
> keyholes, when Smaug lived at the other end of the Wilderland, was
> such a critical security risk, myself.

Word might get to the goblins. Of course it did in the end anyway, but
perhaps it might have done so sooner if wagging tongues had been out and
about. Then the goblins might have gotten to Erebor sooner, before Dáin's
army got there. Or there might have been a greater risk of goblins
intercepting the company - which they did anyway, of course.

Voron.


Jette Goldie

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Sep 15, 2003, 4:24:24 PM9/15/03
to

"Een Wilde Ier" <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote

> Back to the RotK preview - what *is* up with Aragorn's hair colour?
Ladies?
>


he changed his shampoo brand.


--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/


Een Wilde Ier

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Sep 15, 2003, 4:40:58 PM9/15/03
to
Jette Goldie wrote:

> "Een Wilde Ier" <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>>Back to the RotK preview - what *is* up with Aragorn's hair colour?
>
> Ladies?
>
>
>
> he changed his shampoo brand.

So it turned from brown to black? (He kind-of resembles Lucy Lawless in
some RotK shots. If Lucy Lawless had a beard)

I may be a man, but even *I* know that's not natural...

--
Een Wilde Ier

The trouble with born-again Christians is that they are an even bigger
pain the second time around. - Herb Caen

zett

unread,
Sep 15, 2003, 8:36:53 PM9/15/03
to
AC <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message news:<slrnbmahr2...@namibia.tandem>...
[Excellent synopsis regretfully snipped]


> - It seems very odd that Gandalf, someone who clearly knows Elrond, and who,
> from what we see in LotR, knows his way around Rivendell, would have as much
> trouble as he did getting the Dwarves from the ford to the Last Homely
> House.

It struck me as odd, too, but perhaps we are looking at it with
post-LoTR hindsight? It does work within TH to make Rivendell seem
more "other".


>
> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk, though the
> narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin and his
> friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think...") They
> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in
> Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he
> might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.

This is how I reconcile JRRT's silly Elves with his noble Elves in my
mind- The Silmarillion is the Elves' history book (sort of). But it
doesn't show their everyday existence. I rather imagine that beings
who are capable of living for thousands or even millions of years are
going to get bored as hell after a while. Also they are trying to
compensate for the feeling of fading and melancholy that comes with
being Elves in Arda Marred. So, if one could hang out with some Elves
in their day to day, you'd probably see them joking, singing, and
partying a lot- as a coping mechanism. Underneath it all, they'd be
sad and quietly desperate. I think it was Sam who said that Elves were
"so gay and so sad, as it were"- after meeting Gildor and company.
Also, Elves seem to me to be snarky and fond of poking fun at mortals-
sort of like snooty socialites at a cocktail party... "Don't dip your
beard in the foam, father! It is long enough without watering it!"
cracks me up every time. Ok, I am *very* easily amused. Sue me. Sleep
deprivation is making me type crazy stuff, so I'm outta here. :)

[more snipped]

Bill O'Meally

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Sep 15, 2003, 10:05:48 PM9/15/03
to


"AC" <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message

news:slrnbmbugs...@namibia.tandem...


> On 15 Sep 2003 09:48:55 -0700,
> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > AC <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
news:<slrnbmahr2...@namibia.tandem>...
> >>
> >> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk,
though the
> >> narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like
Thorin and his
> >> friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to
think...") They
> >> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still
live in
> >> Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo
that he
> >> might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes
them for.
> >>
> > A nice and inspiring introduction AC, thank you! As for Silliness,
> > maybe JRRT meant to say that seriousness is sometimes overestimated
> > and "silliness" underestimated. In that case, he and I would be of
> > like mind in that respect.
>
> Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The
Hobbit
> with the likes of Glorifindel.

The first time we see Elves in LotR (Gildor & Co.), they are very much
like the Elves of TH: They tease the Hobbits, call them boring, etc.
That is until they hear their tale. These are *High* Elves too.

That is the last time in LotR that we see silly Elves of _The Hobbit_
sort.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS


Bill O'Meally

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Sep 15, 2003, 10:08:49 PM9/15/03
to

"Russ" <mcr...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20030915150504...@mb-m16.aol.com...


> In article <iWn9b.4468$U41....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>, "A Tsar Is
Born"
> <Atsarisb...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >"AC" <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
> >news:slrnbmbugs...@namibia.tandem...
> >
> >> Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The
Hobbit
> >> with the likes of Glorifindel.
> >
> >This is a VERY foolish thing to do.
> >JRRT was decidedly talking DOWN to readers of The Hobbit, and the
elves are
> >principal victims. (The drunken elves of Thranduil also come off
poorly.)
>
> Let's not forget, they were mostly Avarin Silvan elves who are
decidely less
> uptight and much more fun than the Eldar.

However, Gildor & Co. in 'Three is Company' are kind of silly until he
hears the hobbits are being pursued by Black Riders.

put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru

unread,
Sep 16, 2003, 1:55:59 AM9/16/03
to
AC wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:36:19 +0400,
> <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote:
> > AC wrote:
> >> The Hobbit - Chapter 3 - A Short Rest
[snip]

> >> - It seems very odd that Gandalf, someone who clearly knows Elrond, and who,
> >> from what we see in LotR, knows his way around Rivendell, would have as much
> >> trouble as he did getting the Dwarves from the ford to the Last Homely
> >> House.
> > In the story, Elrond could not rely on secrecy alone. _My guess_ is that
> > he had the power to transform terrain (create new traps with water and
> > drain old ones) and actually change the path to the LHH quite regularly.
> > Hence the white path markers.
>
> Wow! That would indeed be some power. I don't know if I agree, but it's an
> interesting idea.
A hasty follow-up: this could somehow counter the threat of a new
'Maeglin'.

> >> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk, though the
> >> narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin and his
> >> friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think...") They
> >> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in
> >> Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he
> >> might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.
> > We must admit that in the Hobbit and the LotR Elves are as human as Men
> > themselves. And behaviour of the Elves in Rivendell certainly parallels
> > the episode in the Council of Elrond where Pippin is so foolish as to
> > name Frodo the Lord of the Ring (is it a prophecy or the first sign of
> > the Ring's influence on Pippin - I don't know). Life behind Elrond's
> > protection obviously makes one forget about the dangers outside.
>
> That's a good point. So one of the effects of the Last Homely House is to
> reduce caution. I'm not exactly certain, however, that wagging on about
> fitting through keyholes, when Smaug lived at the other end of the
> Wilderland, was such a critical security risk, myself.

I suppose Gandalf was acutely aware of Necromancer's and Orcs' spy
networks. He had also learnt a lot from the mistakes of Elven and Mannish
kings who forgot about secrecy (like the Japanese before Midway).

The risks involved were indeterminate: suppose a sufficiently smart Orc
learns about the Company's task. A report to the Goblin chief -- an
strong organised ambush in the mountains -- capture and execution of
Gandalf, Thorin &Co., and Bilbo -- Sauron wins...

What I don't understand is how Elves got to learn about the 'keyhole'
business. For me, it does not sound like adding 2 and 2. Maybe it was
Gandalf himself who told the elves; maybe the scattered bands of Elves
returning from the White Towers saw an inscription on Bilbo's door the
night before the unexpected party. All those things are quite improbable,
IMHO.

[snip]


> >> - It almost seems as if Elrond saw Dale and the Lonely Mountain before the
> >> Desolation of Smaug:
> >> "He [Elrond] took it [the map] and gazed at it... and he grieved to remember
> >> the ruin of the town of Dale and its merry bells, and the burned banks of
> >> the bright River Running."
> > Story-external explanation is rather evident: this ties up characters.
> > Story-internally, there may be more than a dozen reasons for Elrond's
> > trip to the East (e.g. a symposium on civil engineering or a secret date
> > with Alatar :^).
>
> In the Council of Elrond, Elrond says that it's been a long time since he's
> been abroad. I don't have the books in front of me, but when were the Lonely
> Mountain and Dale actually settled? If memory serves, it wasn't that long
> ago.

Erebor founded: T.A.1999 (heh, only 4 years ago!)
Dale --->>--- T.A. X
Anyway, "Of Dwarves and Men" (HoME XII) tells us that the Iron Hills were
settled in late F.A. by Longbeards migrating eastward from Mt.Gundabad.
At the beginning of the S.A. Northmen settled, inter alia, near the
northern eaves of Greenwood (Esgaroth and its environs, most likely).

This allows us to link Erebor's settlement with that of Dale. Since Men
traded with Dwarves, Dale could be founded as a response to the suddenly
opened market in the Lonely Mountain. As Men had already dwelt in the
vicinity of Erebor, the lag till the creation of the trade hub could not
be larger, than, say, 50 years. Thus T.A. X <= T.A. 2049.

BTW, doesn't Elrond's grief relate to the fall of Erebor (>T.A. 2770)?

put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru

unread,
Sep 16, 2003, 1:56:09 AM9/16/03
to
Not a book report, you say? So all this time you've been busy writing
your own books, haven't you?

Glenn Holliday

unread,
Sep 15, 2003, 6:46:07 PM9/15/03
to
AC wrote:
>
> - It seems very odd that Gandalf, someone who clearly knows Elrond, and who,
> from what we see in LotR, knows his way around Rivendell, would have as much
> trouble as he did getting the Dwarves from the ford to the Last Homely
> House.

I have no trouble with this. Tolkien is emphasizing how well
Elrond hides Rivendell. Gandalf is even less omniscient in
TH than he is in LOTR.

> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk, ...They


> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in
> Rivendell.

This does give me some heartburn. Tolkien had certainly developed
his ideas about Elves by this time. I have to write it off to
his decision to write to children. In Letters he comments that
he regrets "child-ing down" TH as much as he did.

> "The master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people whose
> fathers came into the strange stories before the beginning of History, the
> wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men in the North. In
> those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and
> heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was
> their chief."

This is extremely interesting. It suggests that Half-elves were
a tribe or a people. This is a long way from Tolkien's later view
that the Half-elven were extraordinary exceptions and very few.

> - It almost seems as if Elrond saw Dale and the Lonely Mountain before the
> Desolation of Smaug:

Sure. Why not?

There's another tidbit in this chapter that interests me.
While Gandalf is looking for the way into the valley of
Rivendell, "His head and beard wagged this way and that..."
This supports my image of Gandalf as short-bearded. A
long beard does not wag, but drapes under its own weight.
Only the Dwarves had beards long enough to tuck into
their belts!

--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org


Donald Shepherd

unread,
Sep 16, 2003, 7:48:42 AM9/16/03
to
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:54:14 +0100, Een Wilde Ier <theu...@hotmail.com>
alleged...

> Are you referring to half of us having killfiled the other half? <g>

And to us schitzoids who have killfiled ourselves?
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_shepherd @ hotmail . com>

"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open
sewer and die." - Mel Brooks

Pradera

unread,
Sep 16, 2003, 8:40:30 AM9/16/03
to
On 16 wrz 2003, Glenn Holliday <holl...@acm.org> scribbled loosely:

>> "The master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people
>> whose fathers came into the strange stories before the beginning of
>> History, the wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men
>> in the North. In those days of our tale there were still some people
>> who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond
>> the master of the house was their chief."
>
> This is extremely interesting. It suggests that Half-elves were
> a tribe or a people. This is a long way from Tolkien's later view
> that the Half-elven were extraordinary exceptions and very few.

I think this could mean all of descendants of Luthien and Beren, and could
be read as 'Elrond was chief of them', i.e. greatest, most important one.

Morgil

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Sep 16, 2003, 11:03:05 AM9/16/03
to

"Bill O'Meally" <OMea...@wi.rr.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:0eu9b.18267$ZL3....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

> "AC" <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message

> > Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The


> Hobbit
> > with the likes of Glorifindel.
>
> The first time we see Elves in LotR (Gildor & Co.), they are very much
> like the Elves of TH: They tease the Hobbits, call them boring, etc.
> That is until they hear their tale. These are *High* Elves too.
>
> That is the last time in LotR that we see silly Elves of _The Hobbit_
> sort.

It should be pretty obvious...

Elrond:
"You guys like to tell jokes and giggle and kid around, huh? Giggling like a
bunch of young broads in the schoolyard. Well, let me tell a joke. Five
Elves sitting in a dungeon of Barad-Dur, wondering how the fuck they got
there. "What did we do wrong?" "What should've we done?" "What didn't we
do?" "Whatdabbada..." "It's your fault, my fault, his fault." All that
bullshit. Finally someone's comes up with the idea-- "Wait a minute. While
we were planning this Quest, all we did was sit around and tell fucking
jokes." Got the message? Fellas, I don't mean to holler at you. When this
Quest's over, and I'm sure it's going to be a successful one, by Udun we'll
get down to Tol Eressea, and I'll roar and laugh with all of you. You'll
find me a different character round here. Right now it's a matter of
business."

Morgil


Kristian Damm Jensen

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Sep 15, 2003, 2:30:31 PM9/15/03
to

"Den, der kun ta'r spøg for spøg, og alvor kun alvorligt,
han og hun har faktisk fattet begge dele dårlig."
-- Piet Hein

I won't do Hein the disrespect of trying to translate it, but hopefully
someone here knows his (Piet Heins) own english version of that poem.

--
Kristian Damm Jensen | If you can't take the trouble to
damm (at) ofir (dot) dk | make your posting readable, I
| can't take the trouble to read it.

Taemon

unread,
Sep 16, 2003, 3:51:24 PM9/16/03
to
Kristian Damm Jensen:

> I won't do Hein the disrespect of trying to translate it, but hopefully
> someone here knows his (Piet Heins) own english version of that poem.

I might hope he wrote it in Dutch?

Greetings, T.


Henriette

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Sep 17, 2003, 9:45:08 AM9/17/03
to
Kristian Damm Jensen <REdam...@ofir.dk> wrote in message news:<bk7khl$q6uap$1...@ID-146708.news.uni-berlin.de>...

> Henriette wrote:
> >
> > A nice and inspiring introduction AC, thank you! As for Silliness,
> > maybe JRRT meant to say that seriousness is sometimes overestimated
> > and "silliness" underestimated. In that case, he and I would be of
> > like mind in that respect.
>
> "Den, der kun ta'r spøg for spøg, og alvor kun alvorligt,
> han og hun har faktisk fattet begge dele dårlig."
> -- Piet Hein
>
> I won't do Hein the disrespect of trying to translate it, but hopefully
> someone here knows his (Piet Heins) own english version of that poem.

Piet Hein! We alwaays sing: "His name is small, but his deeds are
great". I have no idea what he may have said.

Henriette

Raven

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Sep 17, 2003, 3:17:41 PM9/17/03
to
"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:be50318e.03091...@posting.google.com...

> Kristian Damm Jensen <REdam...@ofir.dk> wrote in message
news:<bk7khl$q6uap$1...@ID-146708.news.uni-berlin.de>...

> > "Den, der kun ta'r spøg for spøg, og alvor kun alvorligt,


> > han og hun har faktisk fattet begge dele dårlig."
> > -- Piet Hein

I don't know how to translate this into elegant English, but a direct
translation is this: "The one who only takes a joke as a joke, and
seriousness only seriously, he and she has actually understood both things
poorly."

> Piet Hein! We alwaays sing: "His name is small, but his deeds are
> great". I have no idea what he may have said.

I wonder if it is two Piet Hein's that you two are referring to. Wasn't
there a Dutch naval hero of that name? Kind of like the Danish-Norwegian
Peter Wessel who was knighted with the name Thundershield? But Kristian
wrote about a Danish poet who is world famous in Denmark for his so-called
grooks. The above is one of them. The Danish Piet Hein lived and was
active earlier in the twentieth century.

Raaf.


Hans Henrik Krohn

unread,
Sep 17, 2003, 4:51:38 PM9/17/03
to
Kristian Damm Jensen skrev:

> Henriette wrote:
>> AC <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
>> news:<slrnbmahr2...@namibia.tandem>...
>>
>>> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk,
>>> though the narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves
>>> like Thorin and his friends think them foolish (which is a very
>>> foolish thing to think...") They don't much resemble the remnants
>>> of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in Rivendell. They even have
>>> somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he might be too fat to
>>> fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.
>>>
>>
>> A nice and inspiring introduction AC, thank you! As for Silliness,
>> maybe JRRT meant to say that seriousness is sometimes overestimated
>> and "silliness" underestimated. In that case, he and I would be of
>> like mind in that respect.
>
> "Den som kun ta'r spøg for spøg, og alvor kun alvorligt,
> han og hun har faktisk fattet begge dele dårligt."

> -- Piet Hein
>
> I won't do Hein the disrespect of trying to translate it, but
> hopefully someone here knows his (Piet Heins) own english version of
> that poem.

A quick Google gives this reference:
http://www.metafilter.com/comments.mefi/21158
with the translation:
Taking fun as simply fun
and earnestness in earnest
shows how thoroughly thou none
of the two discernest
which to my ear sounds a bit too "stilted" than the original - but who am I
to quarrel with the great man's own translation?

-- Hans Henrik Krohn
Valid mail is hhkrohn(AT)tiscali.dk


Hans Henrik Krohn

unread,
Sep 17, 2003, 4:52:46 PM9/17/03
to
Kristian Damm Jensen skrev:

> Henriette wrote:
>> AC <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
>> news:<slrnbmahr2...@namibia.tandem>...
>>
>>> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk,
>>> though the narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves
>>> like Thorin and his friends think them foolish (which is a very
>>> foolish thing to think...") They don't much resemble the remnants
>>> of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in Rivendell. They even have
>>> somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he might be too fat to
>>> fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.
>>>
>>
>> A nice and inspiring introduction AC, thank you! As for Silliness,
>> maybe JRRT meant to say that seriousness is sometimes overestimated
>> and "silliness" underestimated. In that case, he and I would be of
>> like mind in that respect.
>
> "Den som kun ta'r spøg for spøg, og alvor kun alvorligt,
> han og hun har faktisk fattet begge dele dårligt."

> -- Piet Hein
>
> I won't do Hein the disrespect of trying to translate it, but
> hopefully someone here knows his (Piet Heins) own english version of
> that poem.

A quick Google gives this reference:

Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld

unread,
Sep 18, 2003, 1:30:41 AM9/18/03
to
<put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote in message:

> AC wrote:
> > <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote:
> > > AC wrote:
> > >> The Hobbit - Chapter 3 - A Short Rest
> [snip]
> > >> - It seems very odd that Gandalf, someone who clearly knows Elrond,
and who,
> > >> from what we see in LotR, knows his way around Rivendell, would have
as much
> > >> trouble as he did getting the Dwarves from the ford to the Last
Homely
> > >> House.
> > > In the story, Elrond could not rely on secrecy alone. _My guess_ is
that
> > > he had the power to transform terrain (create new traps with water and
> > > drain old ones) and actually change the path to the LHH quite
regularly.
> > > Hence the white path markers.
> >
> > Wow! That would indeed be some power. I don't know if I agree, but
it's an
> > interesting idea.
> A hasty follow-up: this could somehow counter the threat of a new
> 'Maeglin'.

That is an interesting idea. Too bad Tuor didn't think of that.

> > >> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk,
though the
> > >> narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin
and his
> > >> friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to
think...") They
> > >> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still
live in
> > >> Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo
that he
> > >> might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes
them for.
> > > We must admit that in the Hobbit and the LotR Elves are as human as
Men
> > > themselves. And behaviour of the Elves in Rivendell certainly
parallels
> > > the episode in the Council of Elrond where Pippin is so foolish as to
> > > name Frodo the Lord of the Ring (is it a prophecy or the first sign of
> > > the Ring's influence on Pippin - I don't know). Life behind Elrond's
> > > protection obviously makes one forget about the dangers outside.

Can we assume Rivendell is always completely spy-free? If so, no real need
for caution until you leave. If not, wonder what form a spy in Rivendell
would take.

> > That's a good point. So one of the effects of the Last Homely House is
to
> > reduce caution. I'm not exactly certain, however, that wagging on about
> > fitting through keyholes, when Smaug lived at the other end of the
> > Wilderland, was such a critical security risk, myself.
>
> I suppose Gandalf was acutely aware of Necromancer's and Orcs' spy
> networks. He had also learnt a lot from the mistakes of Elven and Mannish
> kings who forgot about secrecy (like the Japanese before Midway).
>
> The risks involved were indeterminate: suppose a sufficiently smart Orc
> learns about the Company's task. A report to the Goblin chief -- an
> strong organised ambush in the mountains -- capture and execution of
> Gandalf, Thorin &Co., and Bilbo -- Sauron wins...
>
> What I don't understand is how Elves got to learn about the 'keyhole'
> business. For me, it does not sound like adding 2 and 2. Maybe it was
> Gandalf himself who told the elves; maybe the scattered bands of Elves
> returning from the White Towers saw an inscription on Bilbo's door the
> night before the unexpected party. All those things are quite improbable,
> IMHO.

I think the Elves were just referring to keyholes in general as part of a
burglar's business, rather than the map (which Elrond hadn't seen yet.)

Speaking of secrecy, I wonder why the map inscriptions were not written in
Dwarvish. Presumably even Elrond doesn't know the Dwarves' secret language?

--
Ernst Stavro Blofeld (Lord Pęlluin,) Ph.D., Count of Tolfalas


Henriette

unread,
Sep 18, 2003, 2:06:45 AM9/18/03
to
"Hans Henrik Krohn" <hhk...@SKALSLETTES.tiscali.dk> wrote in message news:<IQ3ab.3343$fK4....@news.get2net.dk>...
> Kristian Damm Jensen skrev:

> >
> > "Den som kun ta'r spøg for spøg, og alvor kun alvorligt,
> > han og hun har faktisk fattet begge dele dårligt."
> > -- Piet Hein
> >
> > I won't do Hein the disrespect of trying to translate it, but
> > hopefully someone here knows his (Piet Heins) own english version of
> > that poem.
>
> A quick Google gives this reference:
> http://www.metafilter.com/comments.mefi/21158
> with the translation:
> Taking fun as simply fun
> and earnestness in earnest
> shows how thoroughly thou none
> of the two discernest
> which to my ear sounds a bit too "stilted" than the original - but who am I
> to quarrel with the great man's own translation?
>
Thank you Hans Henrik, for your help and this link. A soon as I saw:
"Piet Hein, was also the inventor of Hex and the creator of the Soma
Cube", I knew it could not be our national hero Piet Hein, of whom
some say he had a great part in liberating us from the Spanish
invader, and some that he was a pirate.

Thank you also Rare, for help and your translation, which I understand
better than the official one. And I like the saying a lot, I think it
puts us on the track of what JRRT tries to say with his "silly" elves.

Henriette

put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru

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Sep 18, 2003, 7:31:06 AM9/18/03
to
Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld wrote:
> <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote in message:
> > AC wrote:
> > > <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote:
> > > > AC wrote:
[snip]

> > > > themselves. And behaviour of the Elves in Rivendell certainly
> parallels
> > > > the episode in the Council of Elrond where Pippin is so foolish as to
> > > > name Frodo the Lord of the Ring (is it a prophecy or the first sign of
> > > > the Ring's influence on Pippin - I don't know). Life behind Elrond's
> > > > protection obviously makes one forget about the dangers outside.
>
> Can we assume Rivendell is always completely spy-free? If so, no real need
> for caution until you leave. If not, wonder what form a spy in Rivendell
> would take.
A subverted sentient fox. A real mole working for Sauron.

[...]

> > What I don't understand is how Elves got to learn about the 'keyhole'
> > business. For me, it does not sound like adding 2 and 2. Maybe it was
> > Gandalf himself who told the elves; maybe the scattered bands of Elves
> > returning from the White Towers saw an inscription on Bilbo's door the
> > night before the unexpected party. All those things are quite improbable,
> > IMHO.
>
> I think the Elves were just referring to keyholes in general as part of a
> burglar's business, rather than the map (which Elrond hadn't seen yet.)
You have a point here.


> Speaking of secrecy, I wonder why the map inscriptions were not written in
> Dwarvish. Presumably even Elrond doesn't know the Dwarves' secret language?
Presumably the Khuzdul was *so secret* that Dwarves did not write in it.

Pradera

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Sep 18, 2003, 8:02:09 AM9/18/03
to
On 18 wrz 2003, <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> scribbled
loosely:

>> Speaking of secrecy, I wonder why the map inscriptions were not
>> written in Dwarvish. Presumably even Elrond doesn't know the Dwarves'
>> secret language?
> Presumably the Khuzdul was *so secret* that Dwarves did not write in
> it.

They probably didn't even know it except for few exclamations.
Or maybe there was no Khuzdul, it was all just a great hoax invented by
dwarves to cover their lack of language skills.

A Tsar Is Born

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Sep 18, 2003, 11:12:43 AM9/18/03
to

"Pradera" <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote in message
news:Xns93FA8EC7381A4p...@130.133.1.4...

> On 18 wrz 2003, <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> scribbled
> loosely:
>
> >> Speaking of secrecy, I wonder why the map inscriptions were not
> >> written in Dwarvish. Presumably even Elrond doesn't know the Dwarves'
> >> secret language?
> > Presumably the Khuzdul was *so secret* that Dwarves did not write in
> > it.
>
> They probably didn't even know it except for few exclamations.
> Or maybe there was no Khuzdul, it was all just a great hoax invented by
> dwarves to cover their lack of language skills.

You mean, like Sumerian, a hoax language invented by Mesopotamians to play a
trick on Victorian archaeologists?

Tsar Parmathule


Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld

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Sep 18, 2003, 5:32:11 PM9/18/03
to
"Pradera" <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote in message:

> On 18 wrz 2003, <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> scribbled
> loosely:
>
> >> Speaking of secrecy, I wonder why the map inscriptions were not
> >> written in Dwarvish. Presumably even Elrond doesn't know the Dwarves'
> >> secret language?
> > Presumably the Khuzdul was *so secret* that Dwarves did not write in
> > it.
>
> They probably didn't even know it except for few exclamations.

That is a possibility. Maybe Khuzdul was more common in the FA and gradually
forgotten as the Ages went by. Maybe it remained local to some places like
Khazad-dűm. Although Thorin and his fathers were important and powerful
Dwarves and should know something about Khuzdul. (Notwithstanding
Shakespeare's Henry V, all English monarchs since 1066 spoke fluent French.)
I doubt that Khuzdul was so secret that it was forbidden to write it on
secret treasure maps. Those would be just the kind of thing its secrecy was
meant to protect. We know they devised the Angerthas Moria for writing in
imitation of the Elvish Cirth. Maybe we can say the narrator made an error
in thinking Elrond did the reading instead of Thorin? It's a small and
easily overlooked detail in the scheme of things.

> Or maybe there was no Khuzdul, it was all just a great hoax invented by
> dwarves to cover their lack of language skills.

--

AC

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Sep 18, 2003, 5:37:48 PM9/18/03
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On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:32:11 GMT,
Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld <eblo...@SPECTRE.org> wrote:
> "Pradera" <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote in message:
>> On 18 wrz 2003, <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> scribbled
>> loosely:
>>
>> >> Speaking of secrecy, I wonder why the map inscriptions were not
>> >> written in Dwarvish. Presumably even Elrond doesn't know the Dwarves'
>> >> secret language?
>> > Presumably the Khuzdul was *so secret* that Dwarves did not write in
>> > it.
>>
>> They probably didn't even know it except for few exclamations.
>
> That is a possibility. Maybe Khuzdul was more common in the FA and gradually
> forgotten as the Ages went by. Maybe it remained local to some places like
> Khazad-dūm. Although Thorin and his fathers were important and powerful

> Dwarves and should know something about Khuzdul. (Notwithstanding
> Shakespeare's Henry V, all English monarchs since 1066 spoke fluent French.)
> I doubt that Khuzdul was so secret that it was forbidden to write it on
> secret treasure maps. Those would be just the kind of thing its secrecy was
> meant to protect. We know they devised the Angerthas Moria for writing in
> imitation of the Elvish Cirth. Maybe we can say the narrator made an error
> in thinking Elrond did the reading instead of Thorin? It's a small and
> easily overlooked detail in the scheme of things.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Galadriel seem to know at least some
words in Khuzdul? And wasn't it at least in part are source of Adunaic and
ultimately Westron?

--
Aaron Clausen

tao...@alberni.net

Raven

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Sep 19, 2003, 3:15:21 PM9/19/03
to
"AC" <tao...@alberni.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:slrnbmk9dc...@clausen.alberni.net...

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Galadriel seem to know at least some
> words in Khuzdul? And wasn't it at least in part are source of Adunaic
> and ultimately Westron?

Correct on both counts. The languages of the Edain who came to Beleriand
had been influenced by both Avarin Elvish and by Khuzdul, since Men were
less adept at inventing language than Elves were. It was so to the extent
that Adunaic words had much the same structure as Khuzdul words, with a two-
or three-consonant base determining the basic meaning of the word, the
changing vowels being used in inflection. Not much is known about Khuzdul,
but a possible example is that the basic word "dwarf" was characterized by
the consonant base kh-z-d. Singular possibly "khuzd"; plural "khazad". I
saw this speculation on the Ardalambion website -
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf . As for Galadriel, I don't know if she
actually spoke any Khuzdul, but she certainly knew some names native to that
language.

Eware.


Graham Lockwood

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Oct 1, 2003, 8:25:16 AM10/1/03
to
Raven said:

> "AC" <tao...@alberni.net> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:slrnbmk9dc...@clausen.alberni.net...
>
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Galadriel seem to know at least some
>> words in Khuzdul? And wasn't it at least in part are source of Adunaic
>> and ultimately Westron?
>
> Correct on both counts.

{snip}


As for Galadriel, I don't know if she
> actually spoke any Khuzdul, but she certainly knew some names native to that
> language.

This, actually, I don't find all that surprising as all she seemed to know
(or, rather, all she EXHIBITED knowing) was some place-names and we see that
Gimli at least has no qualms about revealing several Khuzdul place-names to
the Fellowship. Galadriel had lived in the vicinity of Khazâd-dum for
several thousand years and had likely "passed through" it on more than one
occasion. Plenty of opportunity to pick up a few place names that the
Dwarves obviously weren't too concerned about keeping secret.

||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||


AC

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Oct 1, 2003, 11:21:41 AM10/1/03
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On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 05:25:16 -0700,
Graham Lockwood <GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis> wrote:
> Raven said:
>
>> "AC" <tao...@alberni.net> skrev i en meddelelse
>> news:slrnbmk9dc...@clausen.alberni.net...
>>
>>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Galadriel seem to know at least some
>>> words in Khuzdul? And wasn't it at least in part are source of Adunaic
>>> and ultimately Westron?
>>
>> Correct on both counts.
> {snip}
> As for Galadriel, I don't know if she
>> actually spoke any Khuzdul, but she certainly knew some names native to that
>> language.
>
> This, actually, I don't find all that surprising as all she seemed to know
> (or, rather, all she EXHIBITED knowing) was some place-names and we see that
> Gimli at least has no qualms about revealing several Khuzdul place-names to
> the Fellowship. Galadriel had lived in the vicinity of Khazâd-dum for
> several thousand years and had likely "passed through" it on more than one
> occasion. Plenty of opportunity to pick up a few place names that the
> Dwarves obviously weren't too concerned about keeping secret.

I'll accept that. But there is still the issue of Adunaic. At some point
the Dwarves must not have been so secretive with Men, even if it was just
because Men had no language of their own and the Dwarves were forced to
teach them some of their own tongue for communication.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao...@alberni.net

Raven

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Oct 1, 2003, 2:16:30 PM10/1/03