Chapter of the Week - The Hobbit - Chapter 3
AC
1. Synopsis
After the harrowing and near-fatal incident with the trolls, the thirteen
dwarves, one wizard and one hobbit make their way with some difficulty
through a land of unexpected valleys, gulleys and dangerous bogs. Even with
Gandalf's aid, it takes some doing to find Rivendell.
In Rivendell we meet our first Elves, a rather silly lot who make a good
joke out of thirteen dwarves and one very out of place hobbit. Bilbo shows
his love of Elves, while the Dwarves show their general feeling that Elves
are foolish folk. Clearly they know something of Thorin's business, and
Gandalf has to caution them to quiet their tongues.
At last they meet Elrond, who is introduced as an elf-friend, descended
from the first men in the North who aided Elves against the Goblins.
Elrond, showing himself quite the loremaster, recognizes the moon letters on
Thorin's map, and reads to them the puzzling instructions "Stand by the grey
stone when the thrus knocks, and the setting sun with the last night of
Durin's Day will shine upon the key-hole."
The company stays in Rivendell fourteen days before departing on Midsummer's
Morning for the Misty Mountains and the Wilderland.
2. Points of Interest
This has become for me one of the most interesting chapters in The Hobbit
since I began delving into Middle Earth. We catch a glimpse of the Edain,
Beleriand and descendants of Edain and Elves with Elrond as their chief.
A few points that pop up:
- It seems very odd that Gandalf, someone who clearly knows Elrond, and who,
from what we see in LotR, knows his way around Rivendell, would have as much
trouble as he did getting the Dwarves from the ford to the Last Homely
House.
- The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk, though the
narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin and his
friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think...") They
don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in
Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he
might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.
- As the synopsis points out, we have our first glimpses of the Dunedain.
What I wonder is whether this was present in the pre-LotR editions of The
Hobbit or not. The paragraph in question is this:
"The master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people whose
fathers came into the strange stories before the beginning of History, the
wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men in the North. In
those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and
heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was
their chief."
- Notably we also here Gondolin mentioned, as well as the High Elves of the
West (a direct reference to the Noldor and an indirect reference to
Valinor). It does seem remarkable that Turgon's blade would end up in
Gandalf's hands, but somehow I can't think of a better place for it.
- It almost seems as if Elrond saw Dale and the Lonely Mountain before the
Desolation of Smaug:
"He [Elrond] took it [the map] and gazed at it... and he grieved to remember
the ruin of the town of Dale and its merry bells, and the burned banks of
the bright River Running."
- Another interesting point is that we also see Durin mentioned. Again,
could anyone with an original edition tell me if this was present, or was
this a post-LotR change?
- We see one of a number of rather extraordinary coincidences in the history
of the Ring when Thorin and Co. just happen to arrive in Rivendell in time
for the moon to be in the right phase to read the moon letters.
- As to the matter of the moon letters, this seems an example of magic
attributed to Dwarves. The only other example that comes to mind is Turin's
dragon mask. Clearly dwarves had some ability in this regard.
--
Aaron Clausen
the softrat
<tao...@alberni.net> wrote:
>2. Points of Interest
Remember: we see all these things through the eyes (and experience) of
Bilbo.
the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
When you're talking about me, keep your mouth shut.
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru
> The Hobbit - Chapter 3 - A Short Rest
>
> 1. Synopsis
> 2. Points of Interest
> This has become for me one of the most interesting chapters in The Hobbit
> since I began delving into Middle Earth. We catch a glimpse of the Edain,
> Beleriand and descendants of Edain and Elves with Elrond as their chief.
>
> A few points that pop up:
>
> - It seems very odd that Gandalf, someone who clearly knows Elrond, and who,
> from what we see in LotR, knows his way around Rivendell, would have as much
> trouble as he did getting the Dwarves from the ford to the Last Homely
> House.
he had the power to transform terrain (create new traps with water and
drain old ones) and actually change the path to the LHH quite regularly.
Hence the white path markers.
> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk, though the
> narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin and his
> friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think...") They
> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in
> Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he
> might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.
We must admit that in the Hobbit and the LotR Elves are as human as Men
themselves. And behaviour of the Elves in Rivendell certainly parallels
the episode in the Council of Elrond where Pippin is so foolish as to
name Frodo the Lord of the Ring (is it a prophecy or the first sign of
the Ring's influence on Pippin - I don't know). Life behind Elrond's
protection obviously makes one forget about the dangers outside.
> - As the synopsis points out, we have our first glimpses of the Dunedain.
> What I wonder is whether this was present in the pre-LotR editions of The
> Hobbit or not. The paragraph in question is this:
[ain't got the AH, snipping]
> - Notably we also here Gondolin mentioned, as well as the High Elves of the
> West (a direct reference to the Noldor and an indirect reference to
> Valinor). It does seem remarkable that Turgon's blade would end up in
> Gandalf's hands, but somehow I can't think of a better place for it.
A silly question from me: what weapon did Elrond bear during the Last
Alliance?
> - It almost seems as if Elrond saw Dale and the Lonely Mountain before the
> Desolation of Smaug:
> "He [Elrond] took it [the map] and gazed at it... and he grieved to remember
> the ruin of the town of Dale and its merry bells, and the burned banks of
> the bright River Running."
Story-external explanation is rather evident: this ties up characters.
Story-internally, there may be more than a dozen reasons for Elrond's
trip to the East (e.g. a symposium on civil engineering or a secret date
with Alatar :^).
[snip a question on Durin]
> - We see one of a number of rather extraordinary coincidences in the history
> of the Ring when Thorin and Co. just happen to arrive in Rivendell in time
> for the moon to be in the right phase to read the moon letters.
I wonder, what's the use of ultra-secret moon letters?
> - As to the matter of the moon letters, this seems an example of magic
> attributed to Dwarves. The only other example that comes to mind is Turin's
> dragon mask. Clearly dwarves had some ability in this regard.
Eh. What about the secret door and the weird business with the thrush?
It takes more than ordinary magic (or even technology) to devise such a
cunning lock system: the Sun, the Moon, the thrush, a snail, the key.
Of course, nowadays there are astronavigational sensors and microphones
to replicate the secret door. Perhaps Arthur C. Clarke was right after
all.
Archie
--
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."
Pradera
loosely:
>> - Notably we also here Gondolin mentioned, as well as the High Elves
>> of the West (a direct reference to the Noldor and an indirect
>> reference to Valinor). It does seem remarkable that Turgon's blade
>> would end up in Gandalf's hands, but somehow I can't think of a
>> better place for it.
>
> A silly question from me: what weapon did Elrond bear during the Last
> Alliance?
A trumpet ;) (he was a herald, after all)
--
Pradera
---
'Ronald Reagan once said that a great leader is simply an
average man who surrounds himself with the best.
That's why I never vote Republican'
Scott Summers, 'Cyclops'
http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/
http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/
Morgil
<put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> kirjoitti
viestissä:MPG.19cffa8282...@news.mtu-net.ru...
> A silly question from me: what weapon did Elrond bear during the Last
> Alliance?
Perhaps one of Feanor's swords?
Morgil
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru
> On 15 wrz 2003, <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> scribbled
> loosely:
>
> >> - Notably we also here Gondolin mentioned, as well as the High Elves
> >> of the West (a direct reference to the Noldor and an indirect
> >> reference to Valinor). It does seem remarkable that Turgon's blade
> >> would end up in Gandalf's hands, but somehow I can't think of a
> >> better place for it.
> >
> > A silly question from me: what weapon did Elrond bear during the Last
> > Alliance?
>
> A trumpet ;) (he was a herald, after all)
Besides his trumpet, did he have any sword/axe/spear/mace/nuntjaku/dagger
when he was near Mt.Doom?
(Next time you ask me about Cirdan's weapons, expect a curt reply "an
oar".)
BTW, did Elrond have a loud voice?
Archie
--
"I have told my sons that they are not under any
circumstances to take part in massacres, and that
the news of massacres of enemies is not to fill them
with satisfaction or glee."
Kurt Vonnegut, _Slaughterhouse-Five_
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru
>
> <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> kirjoitti
> viestissä:MPG.19cffa8282...@news.mtu-net.ru...
> > A silly question from me: what weapon did Elrond bear during the Last
> > Alliance?
>
> Perhaps one of Feanor's swords?
Henriette
>
> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk, though the
> narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin and his
> friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think...") They
> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in
> Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he
> might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.
>
maybe JRRT meant to say that seriousness is sometimes overestimated
and "silliness" underestimated. In that case, he and I would be of
like mind in that respect.
Henriette
Een Wilde Ier
But the 'narrator' [SI] is Bilbo, who may very well be embellishing for
his audience.
[SI] = Story Internal. Too much typing!
--
Een Wilde Ier
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely
foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. - Douglas
Adams
Een Wilde Ier
> Pradera wrote:
>
>>On 15 wrz 2003, <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> scribbled
>>loosely:
>>
>>
>>>>- Notably we also here Gondolin mentioned, as well as the High Elves
>>>>of the West (a direct reference to the Noldor and an indirect
>>>>reference to Valinor). It does seem remarkable that Turgon's blade
>>>>would end up in Gandalf's hands, but somehow I can't think of a
>>>>better place for it.
>>>
>>>A silly question from me: what weapon did Elrond bear during the Last
>>>Alliance?
>>
>>A trumpet ;) (he was a herald, after all)
>
> Well, I entered the same line in my posting, and erased it tout de suite.
> Besides his trumpet, did he have any sword/axe/spear/mace/nuntjaku/dagger
> when he was near Mt.Doom?
> (Next time you ask me about Cirdan's weapons, expect a curt reply "an
> oar".)
>
> BTW, did Elrond have a loud voice?
Well, he was certainly able to blow his own trumpet loudly enough (well,
what *did* he do that was so exceptional?)
--
Een Wilde Ier
It would be a mistake for the United States Senate to allow any kind of
human cloning to come out of that chamber. - George W. Bush
AC
<put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote:
> AC wrote:
>> The Hobbit - Chapter 3 - A Short Rest
>>
>> 1. Synopsis
> [snip]
>> 2. Points of Interest
>> This has become for me one of the most interesting chapters in The Hobbit
>> since I began delving into Middle Earth. We catch a glimpse of the Edain,
>> Beleriand and descendants of Edain and Elves with Elrond as their chief.
>>
>> A few points that pop up:
>>
>> - It seems very odd that Gandalf, someone who clearly knows Elrond, and who,
>> from what we see in LotR, knows his way around Rivendell, would have as much
>> trouble as he did getting the Dwarves from the ford to the Last Homely
>> House.
> In the story, Elrond could not rely on secrecy alone. _My guess_ is that
> he had the power to transform terrain (create new traps with water and
> drain old ones) and actually change the path to the LHH quite regularly.
> Hence the white path markers.
Wow! That would indeed be some power. I don't know if I agree, but it's an
interesting idea.
>
>> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk, though the
>> narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin and his
>> friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think...") They
>> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in
>> Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he
>> might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.
> We must admit that in the Hobbit and the LotR Elves are as human as Men
> themselves. And behaviour of the Elves in Rivendell certainly parallels
> the episode in the Council of Elrond where Pippin is so foolish as to
> name Frodo the Lord of the Ring (is it a prophecy or the first sign of
> the Ring's influence on Pippin - I don't know). Life behind Elrond's
> protection obviously makes one forget about the dangers outside.
That's a good point. So one of the effects of the Last Homely House is to
reduce caution. I'm not exactly certain, however, that wagging on about
fitting through keyholes, when Smaug lived at the other end of the
Wilderland, was such a critical security risk, myself.
>
>> - As the synopsis points out, we have our first glimpses of the Dunedain.
>> What I wonder is whether this was present in the pre-LotR editions of The
>> Hobbit or not. The paragraph in question is this:
> [ain't got the AH, snipping]
>
>> - Notably we also here Gondolin mentioned, as well as the High Elves of the
>> West (a direct reference to the Noldor and an indirect reference to
>> Valinor). It does seem remarkable that Turgon's blade would end up in
>> Gandalf's hands, but somehow I can't think of a better place for it.
>
> A silly question from me: what weapon did Elrond bear during the Last
> Alliance?
I don't think we're ever told.
>
>> - It almost seems as if Elrond saw Dale and the Lonely Mountain before the
>> Desolation of Smaug:
>> "He [Elrond] took it [the map] and gazed at it... and he grieved to remember
>> the ruin of the town of Dale and its merry bells, and the burned banks of
>> the bright River Running."
> Story-external explanation is rather evident: this ties up characters.
> Story-internally, there may be more than a dozen reasons for Elrond's
> trip to the East (e.g. a symposium on civil engineering or a secret date
> with Alatar :^).
In the Council of Elrond, Elrond says that it's been a long time since he's
been abroad. I don't have the books in front of me, but when were the Lonely
Mountain and Dale actually settled? If memory serves, it wasn't that long
ago.
--
Aaron Clausen
AC
Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The Hobbit
with the likes of Glorifindel.
Thanks for the kudo, BTW. I haven't written a book report since I was
sixteen, so this was an interesting flashback.
--
Aaron Clausen
A Tsar Is Born
> Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The Hobbit
> with the likes of Glorifindel.
This is a VERY foolish thing to do.
JRRT was decidedly talking DOWN to readers of The Hobbit, and the elves are
principal victims. (The drunken elves of Thranduil also come off poorly.)
It's just a case of: The storyteller adjusts the story to his intended
audience and intended effect.
It CAN'T be squared. Don't worry about it.
Enjoy the damn story.
Yes, Durin and Elrond and Gondolin were all in the pre-LotR Hobbit; they had
all appeared in the material Tolkien had been writing for 20 years. One of
the most magical things about The Hobbit and LotR is this sense of thousands
of years of unknown mythology behind everything, that the characters keep
referring to and we never entirely understand.
It's almost disappointing to actually now have this material....
As for Elrond just happening to hold up the map when the right moon shows up
... one of my complaints about JRRT is just how often things like this DO
happen in the plots of H and LotR ... but it's probably part of his RC
worldview: Providence is guiding the entire business, but we still have to
do our bit to the best of our ability for Providence to be able to take care
of the stuff we can't do.
Tsar Parmathule
Russ
<Atsarisb...@hotmail.com> writes:
>"AC" <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
>news:slrnbmbugs...@namibia.tandem...
>
>> Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The Hobbit
>> with the likes of Glorifindel.
>
>This is a VERY foolish thing to do.
>JRRT was decidedly talking DOWN to readers of The Hobbit, and the elves are
>principal victims. (The drunken elves of Thranduil also come off poorly.)
Let's not forget, they were mostly Avarin Silvan elves who are decidely less
uptight and much more fun than the Eldar.
<snip>
Russ
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor"
Een Wilde Ier
> In article <iWn9b.4468$U41....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>, "A Tsar Is Born"
> <Atsarisb...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>"AC" <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
>>news:slrnbmbugs...@namibia.tandem...
>>
>>
>>>Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The Hobbit
>>>with the likes of Glorifindel.
>>
>>This is a VERY foolish thing to do.
>>JRRT was decidedly talking DOWN to readers of The Hobbit, and the elves are
>>principal victims. (The drunken elves of Thranduil also come off poorly.)
>
>
> Let's not forget, they were mostly Avarin Silvan elves who are decidely less
> uptight and much more fun than the Eldar.
More AFT than RABT?
--
Een Wilde Ier
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people
very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams
AC
> In article <iWn9b.4468$U41....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>, "A Tsar Is Born"
><Atsarisb...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>"AC" <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
>>news:slrnbmbugs...@namibia.tandem...
>>
>>> Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The Hobbit
>>> with the likes of Glorifindel.
>>
>>This is a VERY foolish thing to do.
>>JRRT was decidedly talking DOWN to readers of The Hobbit, and the elves are
>>principal victims. (The drunken elves of Thranduil also come off poorly.)
>
> Let's not forget, they were mostly Avarin Silvan elves who are decidely less
> uptight and much more fun than the Eldar.
In Mirkwood, certainly, but Rivendell?
--
Aaron Clausen
Russ
<theu...@hotmail.com> writes:
>Russ wrote:
>
>> In article <iWn9b.4468$U41....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>, "A Tsar Is Born"
>> <Atsarisb...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>>"AC" <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
>>>news:slrnbmbugs...@namibia.tandem...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The Hobbit
>>>>with the likes of Glorifindel.
>>>
>>>This is a VERY foolish thing to do.
>>>JRRT was decidedly talking DOWN to readers of The Hobbit, and the elves are
>>>principal victims. (The drunken elves of Thranduil also come off poorly.)
>>
>>
>> Let's not forget, they were mostly Avarin Silvan elves who are decidely
>less
>> uptight and much more fun than the Eldar.
>
>More AFT than RABT?
>
I said less up tight and more fun; not less intelligent and more neurotic. ;-)
Een Wilde Ier
> In article <bk53fp$p55bq$1...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de>, Een Wilde Ier
> <theu...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>Russ wrote:
<snip>
>>>Let's not forget, they were mostly Avarin Silvan elves who are decidely
>>
>>less
>>
>>>uptight and much more fun than the Eldar.
>>
>>More AFT than RABT?
>>
>
>
> I said less up tight and more fun; not less intelligent
Hey, I ain't seen no Theory of Relativity popping up on RABT recently...
> and more neurotic. ;-)
Are you referring to half of us having killfiled the other half? <g>
Back to the RotK preview - what *is* up with Aragorn's hair colour? Ladies?
--
Een Wilde Ier
Our only hope today lies in our ability to recapture the revolutionary
spirit and go into a sometimes hostile world declaring eternal hostility
to poverty, racism, and militarism. - Martin Luther King Jr.
Raven
news:slrnbmbss5...@namibia.tandem...
> > In the story, Elrond could not rely on secrecy alone. _My guess_ is that
> > he had the power to transform terrain (create new traps with water and
> > drain old ones) and actually change the path to the LHH quite regularly.
> > Hence the white path markers.
> Wow! That would indeed be some power. I don't know if I agree, but it's
> an interesting idea.
Elrond did have a power somewhat related to this, namely to cause a flash
flood in the Bruinen at the ford. Unless he accomplished this by
laboriously building a dam just upstream, which he could collapse at will,
this proves that he did have some power over the landscape. It might have
been shifting the bogs around somewhat, and if the way to Rivendell was
remembered by which bogs to take a left turn at, then this would also serve
to confuse a person who had been there earlier but not recently.
> I'm not exactly certain, however, that wagging on about fitting through
> keyholes, when Smaug lived at the other end of the Wilderland, was
> such a critical security risk, myself.
Word might get to the goblins. Of course it did in the end anyway, but
perhaps it might have done so sooner if wagging tongues had been out and
about. Then the goblins might have gotten to Erebor sooner, before Dáin's
army got there. Or there might have been a greater risk of goblins
intercepting the company - which they did anyway, of course.
Voron.
Jette Goldie
"Een Wilde Ier" <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote
> Back to the RotK preview - what *is* up with Aragorn's hair colour?
Ladies?
>
he changed his shampoo brand.
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Een Wilde Ier
> "Een Wilde Ier" <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>>Back to the RotK preview - what *is* up with Aragorn's hair colour?
>
> Ladies?
>
>
>
> he changed his shampoo brand.
So it turned from brown to black? (He kind-of resembles Lucy Lawless in
some RotK shots. If Lucy Lawless had a beard)
I may be a man, but even *I* know that's not natural...
--
Een Wilde Ier
The trouble with born-again Christians is that they are an even bigger
pain the second time around. - Herb Caen
zett
[Excellent synopsis regretfully snipped]
> - It seems very odd that Gandalf, someone who clearly knows Elrond, and who,
> from what we see in LotR, knows his way around Rivendell, would have as much
> trouble as he did getting the Dwarves from the ford to the Last Homely
> House.
It struck me as odd, too, but perhaps we are looking at it with
post-LoTR hindsight? It does work within TH to make Rivendell seem
more "other".
>
> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk, though the
> narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin and his
> friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think...") They
> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in
> Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he
> might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.
This is how I reconcile JRRT's silly Elves with his noble Elves in my
mind- The Silmarillion is the Elves' history book (sort of). But it
doesn't show their everyday existence. I rather imagine that beings
who are capable of living for thousands or even millions of years are
going to get bored as hell after a while. Also they are trying to
compensate for the feeling of fading and melancholy that comes with
being Elves in Arda Marred. So, if one could hang out with some Elves
in their day to day, you'd probably see them joking, singing, and
partying a lot- as a coping mechanism. Underneath it all, they'd be
sad and quietly desperate. I think it was Sam who said that Elves were
"so gay and so sad, as it were"- after meeting Gildor and company.
Also, Elves seem to me to be snarky and fond of poking fun at mortals-
sort of like snooty socialites at a cocktail party... "Don't dip your
beard in the foam, father! It is long enough without watering it!"
cracks me up every time. Ok, I am *very* easily amused. Sue me. Sleep
deprivation is making me type crazy stuff, so I'm outta here. :)
[more snipped]
Bill O'Meally
"AC" <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
news:slrnbmbugs...@namibia.tandem...
> On 15 Sep 2003 09:48:55 -0700,
> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > AC <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
news:<slrnbmahr2...@namibia.tandem>...
> >>
> >> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk,
though the
> >> narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like
Thorin and his
> >> friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to
think...") They
> >> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still
live in
> >> Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo
that he
> >> might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes
them for.
> >>
> > A nice and inspiring introduction AC, thank you! As for Silliness,
> > maybe JRRT meant to say that seriousness is sometimes overestimated
> > and "silliness" underestimated. In that case, he and I would be of
> > like mind in that respect.
>
> Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The
Hobbit
> with the likes of Glorifindel.
The first time we see Elves in LotR (Gildor & Co.), they are very much
like the Elves of TH: They tease the Hobbits, call them boring, etc.
That is until they hear their tale. These are *High* Elves too.
That is the last time in LotR that we see silly Elves of _The Hobbit_
sort.
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
Bill O'Meally
"Russ" <mcr...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20030915150504...@mb-m16.aol.com...
> In article <iWn9b.4468$U41....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>, "A Tsar Is
Born"
> <Atsarisb...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >"AC" <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
> >news:slrnbmbugs...@namibia.tandem...
> >
> >> Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The
Hobbit
> >> with the likes of Glorifindel.
> >
> >This is a VERY foolish thing to do.
> >JRRT was decidedly talking DOWN to readers of The Hobbit, and the
elves are
> >principal victims. (The drunken elves of Thranduil also come off
poorly.)
>
> Let's not forget, they were mostly Avarin Silvan elves who are
decidely less
> uptight and much more fun than the Eldar.
However, Gildor & Co. in 'Three is Company' are kind of silly until he
hears the hobbits are being pursued by Black Riders.
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru
> On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:36:19 +0400,
> <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote:
> > AC wrote:
> >> The Hobbit - Chapter 3 - A Short Rest
> >> - It seems very odd that Gandalf, someone who clearly knows Elrond, and who,
> >> from what we see in LotR, knows his way around Rivendell, would have as much
> >> trouble as he did getting the Dwarves from the ford to the Last Homely
> >> House.
> > In the story, Elrond could not rely on secrecy alone. _My guess_ is that
> > he had the power to transform terrain (create new traps with water and
> > drain old ones) and actually change the path to the LHH quite regularly.
> > Hence the white path markers.
>
> Wow! That would indeed be some power. I don't know if I agree, but it's an
> interesting idea.
'Maeglin'.
> >> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk, though the
> >> narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin and his
> >> friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think...") They
> >> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in
> >> Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he
> >> might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.
> > We must admit that in the Hobbit and the LotR Elves are as human as Men
> > themselves. And behaviour of the Elves in Rivendell certainly parallels
> > the episode in the Council of Elrond where Pippin is so foolish as to
> > name Frodo the Lord of the Ring (is it a prophecy or the first sign of
> > the Ring's influence on Pippin - I don't know). Life behind Elrond's
> > protection obviously makes one forget about the dangers outside.
>
> That's a good point. So one of the effects of the Last Homely House is to
> reduce caution. I'm not exactly certain, however, that wagging on about
> fitting through keyholes, when Smaug lived at the other end of the
> Wilderland, was such a critical security risk, myself.
I suppose Gandalf was acutely aware of Necromancer's and Orcs' spy
networks. He had also learnt a lot from the mistakes of Elven and Mannish
kings who forgot about secrecy (like the Japanese before Midway).
The risks involved were indeterminate: suppose a sufficiently smart Orc
learns about the Company's task. A report to the Goblin chief -- an
strong organised ambush in the mountains -- capture and execution of
Gandalf, Thorin &Co., and Bilbo -- Sauron wins...
What I don't understand is how Elves got to learn about the 'keyhole'
business. For me, it does not sound like adding 2 and 2. Maybe it was
Gandalf himself who told the elves; maybe the scattered bands of Elves
returning from the White Towers saw an inscription on Bilbo's door the
night before the unexpected party. All those things are quite improbable,
IMHO.
[snip]
> >> - It almost seems as if Elrond saw Dale and the Lonely Mountain before the
> >> Desolation of Smaug:
> >> "He [Elrond] took it [the map] and gazed at it... and he grieved to remember
> >> the ruin of the town of Dale and its merry bells, and the burned banks of
> >> the bright River Running."
> > Story-external explanation is rather evident: this ties up characters.
> > Story-internally, there may be more than a dozen reasons for Elrond's
> > trip to the East (e.g. a symposium on civil engineering or a secret date
> > with Alatar :^).
>
> In the Council of Elrond, Elrond says that it's been a long time since he's
> been abroad. I don't have the books in front of me, but when were the Lonely
> Mountain and Dale actually settled? If memory serves, it wasn't that long
> ago.
Erebor founded: T.A.1999 (heh, only 4 years ago!)
Dale --->>--- T.A. X
Anyway, "Of Dwarves and Men" (HoME XII) tells us that the Iron Hills were
settled in late F.A. by Longbeards migrating eastward from Mt.Gundabad.
At the beginning of the S.A. Northmen settled, inter alia, near the
northern eaves of Greenwood (Esgaroth and its environs, most likely).
This allows us to link Erebor's settlement with that of Dale. Since Men
traded with Dwarves, Dale could be founded as a response to the suddenly
opened market in the Lonely Mountain. As Men had already dwelt in the
vicinity of Erebor, the lag till the creation of the trade hub could not
be larger, than, say, 50 years. Thus T.A. X <= T.A. 2049.
BTW, doesn't Elrond's grief relate to the fall of Erebor (>T.A. 2770)?
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru
your own books, haven't you?
Glenn Holliday
>
> - It seems very odd that Gandalf, someone who clearly knows Elrond, and who,
> from what we see in LotR, knows his way around Rivendell, would have as much
> trouble as he did getting the Dwarves from the ford to the Last Homely
> House.
I have no trouble with this. Tolkien is emphasizing how well
Elrond hides Rivendell. Gandalf is even less omniscient in
TH than he is in LOTR.
> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk, ...They
> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in
> Rivendell.
This does give me some heartburn. Tolkien had certainly developed
his ideas about Elves by this time. I have to write it off to
his decision to write to children. In Letters he comments that
he regrets "child-ing down" TH as much as he did.
> "The master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people whose
> fathers came into the strange stories before the beginning of History, the
> wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men in the North. In
> those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and
> heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was
> their chief."
This is extremely interesting. It suggests that Half-elves were
a tribe or a people. This is a long way from Tolkien's later view
that the Half-elven were extraordinary exceptions and very few.
> - It almost seems as if Elrond saw Dale and the Lonely Mountain before the
> Desolation of Smaug:
Sure. Why not?
There's another tidbit in this chapter that interests me.
While Gandalf is looking for the way into the valley of
Rivendell, "His head and beard wagged this way and that..."
This supports my image of Gandalf as short-bearded. A
long beard does not wag, but drapes under its own weight.
Only the Dwarves had beards long enough to tuck into
their belts!
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Donald Shepherd
alleged...
> Are you referring to half of us having killfiled the other half? <g>
And to us schitzoids who have killfiled ourselves?
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_shepherd @ hotmail . com>
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open
sewer and die." - Mel Brooks
Pradera
>> "The master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people
>> whose fathers came into the strange stories before the beginning of
>> History, the wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men
>> in the North. In those days of our tale there were still some people
>> who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond
>> the master of the house was their chief."
>
> This is extremely interesting. It suggests that Half-elves were
> a tribe or a people. This is a long way from Tolkien's later view
> that the Half-elven were extraordinary exceptions and very few.
I think this could mean all of descendants of Luthien and Beren, and could
be read as 'Elrond was chief of them', i.e. greatest, most important one.
Morgil
"Bill O'Meally" <OMea...@wi.rr.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:0eu9b.18267$ZL3....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> "AC" <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
> > Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The
> Hobbit
> > with the likes of Glorifindel.
>
> The first time we see Elves in LotR (Gildor & Co.), they are very much
> like the Elves of TH: They tease the Hobbits, call them boring, etc.
> That is until they hear their tale. These are *High* Elves too.
>
> That is the last time in LotR that we see silly Elves of _The Hobbit_
> sort.
It should be pretty obvious...
Elrond:
"You guys like to tell jokes and giggle and kid around, huh? Giggling like a
bunch of young broads in the schoolyard. Well, let me tell a joke. Five
Elves sitting in a dungeon of Barad-Dur, wondering how the fuck they got
there. "What did we do wrong?" "What should've we done?" "What didn't we
do?" "Whatdabbada..." "It's your fault, my fault, his fault." All that
bullshit. Finally someone's comes up with the idea-- "Wait a minute. While
we were planning this Quest, all we did was sit around and tell fucking
jokes." Got the message? Fellas, I don't mean to holler at you. When this
Quest's over, and I'm sure it's going to be a successful one, by Udun we'll
get down to Tol Eressea, and I'll roar and laugh with all of you. You'll
find me a different character round here. Right now it's a matter of
business."
Morgil
Kristian Damm Jensen
"Den, der kun ta'r spøg for spøg, og alvor kun alvorligt,
han og hun har faktisk fattet begge dele dårlig."
-- Piet Hein
I won't do Hein the disrespect of trying to translate it, but hopefully
someone here knows his (Piet Heins) own english version of that poem.
--
Kristian Damm Jensen | If you can't take the trouble to
damm (at) ofir (dot) dk | make your posting readable, I
| can't take the trouble to read it.
Taemon
> I won't do Hein the disrespect of trying to translate it, but hopefully
> someone here knows his (Piet Heins) own english version of that poem.
I might hope he wrote it in Dutch?
Greetings, T.
Henriette
> Henriette wrote:
> >
> > A nice and inspiring introduction AC, thank you! As for Silliness,
> > maybe JRRT meant to say that seriousness is sometimes overestimated
> > and "silliness" underestimated. In that case, he and I would be of
> > like mind in that respect.
>
> "Den, der kun ta'r spøg for spøg, og alvor kun alvorligt,
> han og hun har faktisk fattet begge dele dårlig."
> -- Piet Hein
>
> I won't do Hein the disrespect of trying to translate it, but hopefully
> someone here knows his (Piet Heins) own english version of that poem.
Piet Hein! We alwaays sing: "His name is small, but his deeds are
great". I have no idea what he may have said.
Henriette
Raven
news:be50318e.03091...@posting.google.com...
> Kristian Damm Jensen <REdam...@ofir.dk> wrote in message
news:<bk7khl$q6uap$1...@ID-146708.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> > "Den, der kun ta'r spøg for spøg, og alvor kun alvorligt,
> > han og hun har faktisk fattet begge dele dårlig."
> > -- Piet Hein
I don't know how to translate this into elegant English, but a direct
translation is this: "The one who only takes a joke as a joke, and
seriousness only seriously, he and she has actually understood both things
poorly."
> Piet Hein! We alwaays sing: "His name is small, but his deeds are
> great". I have no idea what he may have said.
I wonder if it is two Piet Hein's that you two are referring to. Wasn't
there a Dutch naval hero of that name? Kind of like the Danish-Norwegian
Peter Wessel who was knighted with the name Thundershield? But Kristian
wrote about a Danish poet who is world famous in Denmark for his so-called
grooks. The above is one of them. The Danish Piet Hein lived and was
active earlier in the twentieth century.
Raaf.
Hans Henrik Krohn
> Henriette wrote:
>> AC <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
>> news:<slrnbmahr2...@namibia.tandem>...
>>
>>> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk,
>>> though the narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves
>>> like Thorin and his friends think them foolish (which is a very
>>> foolish thing to think...") They don't much resemble the remnants
>>> of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in Rivendell. They even have
>>> somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he might be too fat to
>>> fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.
>>>
>>
>> A nice and inspiring introduction AC, thank you! As for Silliness,
>> maybe JRRT meant to say that seriousness is sometimes overestimated
>> and "silliness" underestimated. In that case, he and I would be of
>> like mind in that respect.
>
> han og hun har faktisk fattet begge dele dårligt."
> -- Piet Hein
>
> I won't do Hein the disrespect of trying to translate it, but
> hopefully someone here knows his (Piet Heins) own english version of
> that poem.
A quick Google gives this reference:
http://www.metafilter.com/comments.mefi/21158
with the translation:
Taking fun as simply fun
and earnestness in earnest
shows how thoroughly thou none
of the two discernest
which to my ear sounds a bit too "stilted" than the original - but who am I
to quarrel with the great man's own translation?
-- Hans Henrik Krohn
Valid mail is hhkrohn(AT)tiscali.dk
Hans Henrik Krohn
> Henriette wrote:
>> AC <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message
>> news:<slrnbmahr2...@namibia.tandem>...
>>
>>> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk,
>>> though the narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves
>>> like Thorin and his friends think them foolish (which is a very
>>> foolish thing to think...") They don't much resemble the remnants
>>> of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in Rivendell. They even have
>>> somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he might be too fat to
>>> fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.
>>>
>>
>> A nice and inspiring introduction AC, thank you! As for Silliness,
>> maybe JRRT meant to say that seriousness is sometimes overestimated
>> and "silliness" underestimated. In that case, he and I would be of
>> like mind in that respect.
>
> han og hun har faktisk fattet begge dele dårligt."
> -- Piet Hein
>
> I won't do Hein the disrespect of trying to translate it, but
> hopefully someone here knows his (Piet Heins) own english version of
> that poem.
A quick Google gives this reference:
Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld
> AC wrote:
> > <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote:
> > > AC wrote:
> > >> The Hobbit - Chapter 3 - A Short Rest
> [snip]
> > >> - It seems very odd that Gandalf, someone who clearly knows Elrond,
and who,
> > >> from what we see in LotR, knows his way around Rivendell, would have
as much
> > >> trouble as he did getting the Dwarves from the ford to the Last
Homely
> > >> House.
> > > In the story, Elrond could not rely on secrecy alone. _My guess_ is
that
> > > he had the power to transform terrain (create new traps with water and
> > > drain old ones) and actually change the path to the LHH quite
regularly.
> > > Hence the white path markers.
> >
> > Wow! That would indeed be some power. I don't know if I agree, but
it's an
> > interesting idea.
> A hasty follow-up: this could somehow counter the threat of a new
> 'Maeglin'.
That is an interesting idea. Too bad Tuor didn't think of that.
> > >> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk,
though the
> > >> narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin
and his
> > >> friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to
think...") They
> > >> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still
live in
> > >> Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo
that he
> > >> might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes
them for.
> > > We must admit that in the Hobbit and the LotR Elves are as human as
Men
> > > themselves. And behaviour of the Elves in Rivendell certainly
parallels
> > > the episode in the Council of Elrond where Pippin is so foolish as to
> > > name Frodo the Lord of the Ring (is it a prophecy or the first sign of
> > > the Ring's influence on Pippin - I don't know). Life behind Elrond's
> > > protection obviously makes one forget about the dangers outside.
Can we assume Rivendell is always completely spy-free? If so, no real need
for caution until you leave. If not, wonder what form a spy in Rivendell
would take.
> > That's a good point. So one of the effects of the Last Homely House is
to
> > reduce caution. I'm not exactly certain, however, that wagging on about
> > fitting through keyholes, when Smaug lived at the other end of the
> > Wilderland, was such a critical security risk, myself.
>
> I suppose Gandalf was acutely aware of Necromancer's and Orcs' spy
> networks. He had also learnt a lot from the mistakes of Elven and Mannish
> kings who forgot about secrecy (like the Japanese before Midway).
>
> The risks involved were indeterminate: suppose a sufficiently smart Orc
> learns about the Company's task. A report to the Goblin chief -- an
> strong organised ambush in the mountains -- capture and execution of
> Gandalf, Thorin &Co., and Bilbo -- Sauron wins...
>
> What I don't understand is how Elves got to learn about the 'keyhole'
> business. For me, it does not sound like adding 2 and 2. Maybe it was
> Gandalf himself who told the elves; maybe the scattered bands of Elves
> returning from the White Towers saw an inscription on Bilbo's door the
> night before the unexpected party. All those things are quite improbable,
> IMHO.
I think the Elves were just referring to keyholes in general as part of a
burglar's business, rather than the map (which Elrond hadn't seen yet.)
Speaking of secrecy, I wonder why the map inscriptions were not written in
Dwarvish. Presumably even Elrond doesn't know the Dwarves' secret language?
--
Ernst Stavro Blofeld (Lord Pęlluin,) Ph.D., Count of Tolfalas
Henriette
> Kristian Damm Jensen skrev:
> >
> > "Den som kun ta'r spøg for spøg, og alvor kun alvorligt,
> > han og hun har faktisk fattet begge dele dårligt."
> > -- Piet Hein
> >
> > I won't do Hein the disrespect of trying to translate it, but
> > hopefully someone here knows his (Piet Heins) own english version of
> > that poem.
>
> A quick Google gives this reference:
> http://www.metafilter.com/comments.mefi/21158
> with the translation:
> Taking fun as simply fun
> and earnestness in earnest
> shows how thoroughly thou none
> of the two discernest
> which to my ear sounds a bit too "stilted" than the original - but who am I
> to quarrel with the great man's own translation?
>
"Piet Hein, was also the inventor of Hex and the creator of the Soma
Cube", I knew it could not be our national hero Piet Hein, of whom
some say he had a great part in liberating us from the Spanish
invader, and some that he was a pirate.
Thank you also Rare, for help and your translation, which I understand
better than the official one. And I like the saying a lot, I think it
puts us on the track of what JRRT tries to say with his "silly" elves.
Henriette
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru
> <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote in message:
> > AC wrote:
> > > <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote:
> > > > AC wrote:
> > > > themselves. And behaviour of the Elves in Rivendell certainly
> parallels
> > > > the episode in the Council of Elrond where Pippin is so foolish as to
> > > > name Frodo the Lord of the Ring (is it a prophecy or the first sign of
> > > > the Ring's influence on Pippin - I don't know). Life behind Elrond's
> > > > protection obviously makes one forget about the dangers outside.
>
> Can we assume Rivendell is always completely spy-free? If so, no real need
> for caution until you leave. If not, wonder what form a spy in Rivendell
> would take.
[...]
> > What I don't understand is how Elves got to learn about the 'keyhole'
> > business. For me, it does not sound like adding 2 and 2. Maybe it was
> > Gandalf himself who told the elves; maybe the scattered bands of Elves
> > returning from the White Towers saw an inscription on Bilbo's door the
> > night before the unexpected party. All those things are quite improbable,
> > IMHO.
>
> I think the Elves were just referring to keyholes in general as part of a
> burglar's business, rather than the map (which Elrond hadn't seen yet.)
> Speaking of secrecy, I wonder why the map inscriptions were not written in
> Dwarvish. Presumably even Elrond doesn't know the Dwarves' secret language?
Pradera
loosely:
>> Speaking of secrecy, I wonder why the map inscriptions were not
>> written in Dwarvish. Presumably even Elrond doesn't know the Dwarves'
>> secret language?
> Presumably the Khuzdul was *so secret* that Dwarves did not write in
> it.
They probably didn't even know it except for few exclamations.
Or maybe there was no Khuzdul, it was all just a great hoax invented by
dwarves to cover their lack of language skills.
A Tsar Is Born
"Pradera" <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote in message
news:Xns93FA8EC7381A4p...@130.133.1.4...
> On 18 wrz 2003, <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> scribbled
> loosely:
>
> >> Speaking of secrecy, I wonder why the map inscriptions were not
> >> written in Dwarvish. Presumably even Elrond doesn't know the Dwarves'
> >> secret language?
> > Presumably the Khuzdul was *so secret* that Dwarves did not write in
> > it.
>
> They probably didn't even know it except for few exclamations.
> Or maybe there was no Khuzdul, it was all just a great hoax invented by
> dwarves to cover their lack of language skills.
You mean, like Sumerian, a hoax language invented by Mesopotamians to play a
trick on Victorian archaeologists?
Tsar Parmathule
Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld
> On 18 wrz 2003, <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> scribbled
> loosely:
>
> >> Speaking of secrecy, I wonder why the map inscriptions were not
> >> written in Dwarvish. Presumably even Elrond doesn't know the Dwarves'
> >> secret language?
> > Presumably the Khuzdul was *so secret* that Dwarves did not write in
> > it.
>
> They probably didn't even know it except for few exclamations.
That is a possibility. Maybe Khuzdul was more common in the FA and gradually
forgotten as the Ages went by. Maybe it remained local to some places like
Khazad-dűm. Although Thorin and his fathers were important and powerful
Dwarves and should know something about Khuzdul. (Notwithstanding
Shakespeare's Henry V, all English monarchs since 1066 spoke fluent French.)
I doubt that Khuzdul was so secret that it was forbidden to write it on
secret treasure maps. Those would be just the kind of thing its secrecy was
meant to protect. We know they devised the Angerthas Moria for writing in
imitation of the Elvish Cirth. Maybe we can say the narrator made an error
in thinking Elrond did the reading instead of Thorin? It's a small and
easily overlooked detail in the scheme of things.
> Or maybe there was no Khuzdul, it was all just a great hoax invented by
> dwarves to cover their lack of language skills.
--
AC
Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld <eblo...@SPECTRE.org> wrote:
> "Pradera" <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote in message:
>> On 18 wrz 2003, <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> scribbled
>> loosely:
>>
>> >> Speaking of secrecy, I wonder why the map inscriptions were not
>> >> written in Dwarvish. Presumably even Elrond doesn't know the Dwarves'
>> >> secret language?
>> > Presumably the Khuzdul was *so secret* that Dwarves did not write in
>> > it.
>>
>> They probably didn't even know it except for few exclamations.
>
> That is a possibility. Maybe Khuzdul was more common in the FA and gradually
> forgotten as the Ages went by. Maybe it remained local to some places like
> Dwarves and should know something about Khuzdul. (Notwithstanding
> Shakespeare's Henry V, all English monarchs since 1066 spoke fluent French.)
> I doubt that Khuzdul was so secret that it was forbidden to write it on
> secret treasure maps. Those would be just the kind of thing its secrecy was
> meant to protect. We know they devised the Angerthas Moria for writing in
> imitation of the Elvish Cirth. Maybe we can say the narrator made an error
> in thinking Elrond did the reading instead of Thorin? It's a small and
> easily overlooked detail in the scheme of things.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Galadriel seem to know at least some
words in Khuzdul? And wasn't it at least in part are source of Adunaic and
ultimately Westron?
--
Aaron Clausen
Raven
news:slrnbmk9dc...@clausen.alberni.net...
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Galadriel seem to know at least some
> words in Khuzdul? And wasn't it at least in part are source of Adunaic
> and ultimately Westron?
Correct on both counts. The languages of the Edain who came to Beleriand
had been influenced by both Avarin Elvish and by Khuzdul, since Men were
less adept at inventing language than Elves were. It was so to the extent
that Adunaic words had much the same structure as Khuzdul words, with a two-
or three-consonant base determining the basic meaning of the word, the
changing vowels being used in inflection. Not much is known about Khuzdul,
but a possible example is that the basic word "dwarf" was characterized by
the consonant base kh-z-d. Singular possibly "khuzd"; plural "khazad". I
saw this speculation on the Ardalambion website -
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf . As for Galadriel, I don't know if she
actually spoke any Khuzdul, but she certainly knew some names native to that
language.
Eware.
Graham Lockwood
> "AC" <tao...@alberni.net> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:slrnbmk9dc...@clausen.alberni.net...
>
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Galadriel seem to know at least some
>> words in Khuzdul? And wasn't it at least in part are source of Adunaic
>> and ultimately Westron?
>
> Correct on both counts.
{snip}
As for Galadriel, I don't know if she
> actually spoke any Khuzdul, but she certainly knew some names native to that
> language.
This, actually, I don't find all that surprising as all she seemed to know
(or, rather, all she EXHIBITED knowing) was some place-names and we see that
Gimli at least has no qualms about revealing several Khuzdul place-names to
the Fellowship. Galadriel had lived in the vicinity of Khazâd-dum for
several thousand years and had likely "passed through" it on more than one
occasion. Plenty of opportunity to pick up a few place names that the
Dwarves obviously weren't too concerned about keeping secret.
||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
AC
Graham Lockwood <GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis> wrote:
> Raven said:
>
>> "AC" <tao...@alberni.net> skrev i en meddelelse
>> news:slrnbmk9dc...@clausen.alberni.net...
>>
>>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Galadriel seem to know at least some
>>> words in Khuzdul? And wasn't it at least in part are source of Adunaic
>>> and ultimately Westron?
>>
>> Correct on both counts.
> {snip}
> As for Galadriel, I don't know if she
>> actually spoke any Khuzdul, but she certainly knew some names native to that
>> language.
>
> This, actually, I don't find all that surprising as all she seemed to know
> (or, rather, all she EXHIBITED knowing) was some place-names and we see that
> Gimli at least has no qualms about revealing several Khuzdul place-names to
> the Fellowship. Galadriel had lived in the vicinity of Khazâd-dum for
> several thousand years and had likely "passed through" it on more than one
> occasion. Plenty of opportunity to pick up a few place names that the
> Dwarves obviously weren't too concerned about keeping secret.
I'll accept that. But there is still the issue of Adunaic. At some point
the Dwarves must not have been so secretive with Men, even if it was just
because Men had no language of their own and the Dwarves were forced to
teach them some of their own tongue for communication.
--
Aaron Clausen
Raven
> I'll accept that. But there is still the issue of Adunaic. At some point
> the Dwarves must not have been so secretive with Men, even if it was just
> because Men had no language of their own and the Dwarves were forced to
> teach them some of their own tongue for communication.
The Dwarves were not particularly secretive about their language. They
were absolutely secretive about their names, not even revealing them to dear
friends of alien race, being known by nick-names instead. Names like Thorin
and Gimli were just "outer" names. But when the Eldar didn't generally
learn Khuzdul it was not because the Dwarves kept it secret from them, it
was because they found it somewhat uncouth and difficult to learn.
Holló.
Igenlode Wordsmith
> AC wrote:
> > "The master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people whose
> > fathers came into the strange stories before the beginning of History, the
> > wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men in the North. In
> > those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and
> > heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was
> > their chief."
>
> This is extremely interesting. It suggests that Half-elves were
> a tribe or a people. This is a long way from Tolkien's later view
> that the Half-elven were extraordinary exceptions and very few.
>
I read that as "Elrond was chief of the Dunedain" (the last of those
descended from Elros), which on the face of it is an even odder
statement...
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Lurker Extraordinaire
* Usenet: Warning, may contain Nuts *
AC
> On 15 Sep 2003 Glenn Holliday wrote:
>
>> AC wrote:
>
>> > "The master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people whose
>> > fathers came into the strange stories before the beginning of History, the
>> > wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men in the North. In
>> > those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and
>> > heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was
>> > their chief."
>>
>> This is extremely interesting. It suggests that Half-elves were
>> a tribe or a people. This is a long way from Tolkien's later view
>> that the Half-elven were extraordinary exceptions and very few.
>>
> I read that as "Elrond was chief of the Dunedain" (the last of those
> descended from Elros), which on the face of it is an even odder
> statement...
I think that might be pushing it a bit too far. I remember Aragorn saying
in LotR that Elrond was the mightiest of his "race". It seems clear that
the Dunedain still felt a very close affinity to Elrond (perfectly
understandable, I might add). Elrond certainly couldn't be called one of
the Dunedain, but he was the oldest of the Half-Elven, and thus the chief of
those people, whether they were counted among mortal Men, the Eldar or as of
yet undecided. I'm certain that is what the passage means.
But what I wanted to know is whether this passage was in the original
edition of The Hobbit. I don't have the Annotated Hobbit (I do know what
I'm asking for Christmas now, though), so I was curious to see whether this
was a post-LotR addition or in the original story.
--
Aaron Clausen
Steuard Jensen
<slrnbnmd80...@clausen.alberni.net>:
> >> AC wrote:
> >> > "The master of the house was an elf-friend... In those days of
> >> > our tale there were still some people who had both elves and
> >> > heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the
> >> > house was their chief."
> But what I wanted to know is whether this passage was in the
> original edition of The Hobbit. I don't have the Annotated Hobbit
> (I do know what I'm asking for Christmas now, though), so I was
> curious to see whether this was a post-LotR addition or in the
> original story.
My Annotated Hobbit doesn't show any changes to this passage at all:
it seems to be identical to the original. AH does make reference here
to Letter #257, though, where Tolkien said (post-LotR),
"The passage in Ch. iii relating him to the Half-elven of the
mythology was a fortunate accident, due to the difficulty of
constantly inventing good names for new characters. I gave him the
name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology... I made
him half-elven."
Interesting, that. :)
For the record, I would say that "Elrond the master of the house was
their chief" probably means that Elrond was in some sense "chief" of
all the descendants of Luthien, including the Dunedain. Arwen herself
told Aragorn "we are akin from afar" (in "The Tale of Aragorn and
Arwen"), and Aragorn called on that kinship when he told his mother
about his desire. Even Legolas makes reference to Aragorn as one of
"the children of Luthien", so treating them as a (rather extended)
family was probably fairly common.
Steuard Jensen
AC
Steuard Jensen <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> Quoth tao...@alberni.net in article
><slrnbnmd80...@clausen.alberni.net>:
>
>> >> AC wrote:
>
>> >> > "The master of the house was an elf-friend... In those days of
>> >> > our tale there were still some people who had both elves and
>> >> > heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the
>> >> > house was their chief."
>
>> But what I wanted to know is whether this passage was in the
>> original edition of The Hobbit. I don't have the Annotated Hobbit
>> (I do know what I'm asking for Christmas now, though), so I was
>> curious to see whether this was a post-LotR addition or in the
>> original story.
>
> My Annotated Hobbit doesn't show any changes to this passage at all:
> it seems to be identical to the original. AH does make reference here
> to Letter #257, though, where Tolkien said (post-LotR),
>
> "The passage in Ch. iii relating him to the Half-elven of the
> mythology was a fortunate accident, due to the difficulty of
> constantly inventing good names for new characters. I gave him the
> name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology... I made
> him half-elven."
>
> Interesting, that. :)
Ah good. Another fortunate accident of the good Professor's. It fits so
very well with the conception of the Dunedain, and of the Half-elven as a
whole, that I thought it by intentional.
>
> For the record, I would say that "Elrond the master of the house was
> their chief" probably means that Elrond was in some sense "chief" of
> all the descendants of Luthien, including the Dunedain. Arwen herself
> told Aragorn "we are akin from afar" (in "The Tale of Aragorn and
> Arwen"), and Aragorn called on that kinship when he told his mother
> about his desire. Even Legolas makes reference to Aragorn as one of
> "the children of Luthien", so treating them as a (rather extended)
> family was probably fairly common.
That's my view as well.
--
Aaron Clausen
Troels Forchhammer
Steuard Jensen <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> enriched us with:
>
<snip>
> For the record, I would say that "Elrond the master of the house was
> their chief" probably means that Elrond was in some sense "chief" of
> all the descendants of Luthien, including the Dunedain.
- to the extent that the Dunedain were descendants of Luthien (that would
only be a small fraction of the Northern Dunedain, I guess).
I agree with your analysis of the story-internal interpretation. but I
think that there's a good possibility that Tolkien has something different
in mind when he wrote that passage: not that he is also called an
Elf-friend without any indication at all that he was counted among the
Elves. It is, IMHO, likely that these wordings are reminiscent of a
concept Tolkien had for the Hobbit (i.e. unrelated to Middle-earth) that
the Half-elves was a people in their own right. The passage you quote from
Letter #257 certainly, to me, suggest that he initially thought the Elrond
in TH to be a different character from Elrond, son of Eärendil, from
Middle-earth, even if the former did inherit the half-elvenness from the
latter.
The point is that when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit he didn't intend it to be
part of the Middle-earth cycle, and some of the passages present problems
if we try to map them uncritically to Middle-earth because of this. That
shouldn't stop us from trying, but we should be aware of this.
And, as I said, the idea that Elrond was chief of the descendants of
Luthien is, as far as I am concerned, the best interpretation of his
'chiefdom' - it is also very much in accord with Aragorn's comment in /The
Houses of Healing/;
"Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our
race, and has the greater power."
Here Aragorn must, IMO, refer to the race of the Peredhil - anything else
would be inexplicable.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk
Membranous Gauss
> Interesting, that. :)
>
> For the record, I would say that "Elrond the master of the house was
> their chief" probably means that Elrond was in some sense "chief" of
> all the descendants of Luthien, including the Dunedain. Arwen herself
> told Aragorn "we are akin from afar" (in "The Tale of Aragorn and
> Arwen"), and Aragorn called on that kinship when he told his mother
> about his desire. Even Legolas makes reference to Aragorn as one of
> "the children of Luthien", so treating them as a (rather extended)
> family was probably fairly common.
> Steuard Jensen
Yes indeed. All the more reason the movie got the relationship between
Aragorn and Elrond so wrong. Where in the book does it even suggest that one
of the wisest beings in Middle Earth is in fact a bitter vindictive old fart
who is jealous of the fact that his day is over and the time of humans is
rising - and of course jealous of his daughter wanting to leave him and
shack up with Aragorn?
My impression in the book was that Elrond had helped raise Aragorn and saw
him as an adoptive son whose destiny he knew would be great. He was not
happy that his daughter was going to wed Aragorn, but he was resigned to it.
Although maybe that was just an act for when those irritating hobbits were
running around rivendell taking notes on everything for those damned books
of theirs...
Gauss
--
Face: The Spinal Frontier
coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Luthien is, as far as I am concerned, the best interpretation of his
> 'chiefdom' - it is also very much in accord with Aragorn's comment in /The
> Houses of Healing/;
originally there were no twins elrond and elros
there was only elrond
who became a man
and the first king of of the surviving elffriends
in the beginning of the second age
then jrrt included him in the hobbit
and the stories had to be rewritten for twins
with elros as the king of men
and elrond was now given the chance to become an elf
Troels Forchhammer
coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges <mair_...@yahoo.com>
enriched us with:
>
> originally there were no twins elrond and elros
> and elrond was now given the chance to become an elf
Once more I get to regret that I haven't yet found the time
to move on with HoMe - I really ought to get going :-/
Thanks.
coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> in <mair_fheal-02...@c129.ppp.tsoft.com>,
> coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges <mair_...@yahoo.com>
> enriched us with:
> >
> > originally there were no twins elrond and elros
> [...]
> > and elrond was now given the chance to become an elf
>
> Once more I get to regret that I haven't yet found the time
> to move on with HoMe - I really ought to get going :-/
>
> Thanks.
you need to get a real job job
then you have eight hours a day with nothing else to do
Öjevind Lång
news:msFeb.2933$f83....@news.get2net.dk...
[snip]
> The Dwarves were not particularly secretive about their language. They
> were absolutely secretive about their names, not even revealing them to
dear
> friends of alien race, being known by nick-names instead. Names like
Thorin
> and Gimli were just "outer" names. But when the Eldar didn't generally
> learn Khuzdul it was not because the Dwarves kept it secret from them, it
> was because they found it somewhat uncouth and difficult to learn.
I'm afraid you are wrong. Here is what Tolkien says on the matter:
"Yet in secret (a secret which unlike the Elves, they did not willingly
unlock, even to their friends) they used their own strange tongue, changed
little by be years; for it had become a tongue of lore rather than
cradle-speech, and they tended it and guarded it as a treasure of the past."
(Appendix F: The Langauges and the peoples of the Third Age")
Öjevind
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru
How could Tolkien always remember to model Dwarves after Jews? You may
flame me for allegory, but even the choice of language and its
"properties", and the notion of Dwarves exiled from Khazad-dum, and the
mode of co-existence of Dwarves and Men are surprisingly consistent with
those of RL protagonists all along those 50-60 years of ME development.
Archie
--
Time is never fully on your side.
Donald Shepherd
mail-out-a...@mail.ru says...
> How could Tolkien always remember to model Dwarves after Jews? You may
> flame me for allegory, but even the choice of language and its
> "properties", and the notion of Dwarves exiled from Khazad-dum, and the
> mode of co-existence of Dwarves and Men are surprisingly consistent with
> those of RL protagonists all along those 50-60 years of ME development.
It's a bit hard to flame over allegory in this regard since he even
mentions the similarities and his modelling of them in one of his
letters.
Öjevind Lång
True, but his Dwarves were also inspired by other things: their hardiness,
martial prowess and tendency to fight with axes all hark abck to the
Icelandic sagas.
Öjevind
Membranous Gauss
<put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote in message
news:MPG.19e84c23a7...@news.mtu-net.ru...
Dwarves modelled after Jews? I think you should be careful about that one.
What properties of their language are you referring to? As for co-existence
of Dwarves and Men. Is that kind of like how Jews have co-existed with Men
in the real world . i.e Jews are some type of Demi-human? Or is it more like
Jews are a different race who have coexisted with other races - i.e. what
every other race on Earth has done at some point or another.
I'm not suggesting you are an antisemite, only that you be careful on this
thread, lest someone actually does accuse you of it.
What exactly did Tolkien say about how he modelled dwarves on Jews? I was
under the impression
that the dwarves were modelled on Teutonic and Scandinavian folklore, like
many other elements in LOTR.
ste...@nomail.com
: What exactly did Tolkien say about how he modelled dwarves on Jews? I was
: under the impression
: that the dwarves were modelled on Teutonic and Scandinavian folklore, like
: many other elements in LOTR.
: Gauss
From Letter #176
"I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien
in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country,
but with an accent due to their private tongue....."
I do not think that Tolkien modelled dwarves on Jews in the sense
that they were the primary inspiration for the dwarves, but he
did recognize some similarities between the two.
Stephen
becte
> On 15 Sep 2003 09:48:55 -0700,
> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > AC <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message news:<slrnbmahr2...@namibia.tandem>...
> >>
> >> - The Elves in Rivendell are very much portrayed as silly folk, though the
> >> narrator does point out that "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin and his
> >> friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think...") They
> >> don't much resemble the remnants of the Noldorin Exiles who still live in
> >> Rivendell. They even have somewhat loose lips when teasing Bilbo that he
> >> might be too fat to fit through keyholes, which Gandalf admonishes them for.
> >>
> > A nice and inspiring introduction AC, thank you! As for Silliness,
> > maybe JRRT meant to say that seriousness is sometimes overestimated
> > and "silliness" underestimated. In that case, he and I would be of
> > like mind in that respect.
>
> Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The Hobbit
> with the likes of Glorifindel.
>
Not all of the elves are described as sad or grave in LotR.
"Some like kings, terrible and splendid; and some merry as children".
And the elf Lindir is very "silly" in my opinion.
Graham Lockwood
> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Membranous Gauss <join...@thepub.co.za> wrote:
> : What exactly did Tolkien say about how he modelled dwarves on Jews? I was
> : under the impression
> : that the dwarves were modelled on Teutonic and Scandinavian folklore, like
> : many other elements in LOTR.
> "I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien
> in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country,
> but with an accent due to their private tongue....."
> I do not think that Tolkien modelled dwarves on Jews in the sense
> that they were the primary inspiration for the dwarves, but he
> did recognize some similarities between the two.
Khuzdul and Hebrew also both make use of root consonants and alter their
type of speech by adding or changing vowels. For instance, the Khuzdul root
for "Orc" is "R-Kh-S", the singular ("Orc") is "Rukhs" and the plural "Orcs"
is "Rakhās".
Another similarity between Tolkien's Dwarves and Jews is that they both use
an apparenly rather complicated calender based on the lunar month. The
complications come from the fact that lunar calenders don't really fit into
solar calenders very well.
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru
>
> <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote in message
> news:MPG.19e84c23a7...@news.mtu-net.ru...
> > Öjevind Lång wrote:
> > > "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> skrev i
> meddelandet
> > > news:msFeb.2933$f83....@news.get2net.dk...
> > > [snip]
> > How could Tolkien always remember to model Dwarves after Jews? You may
> > flame me for allegory, but even the choice of language and its
> > "properties", and the notion of Dwarves exiled from Khazad-dum, and the
> > mode of co-existence of Dwarves and Men are surprisingly consistent with
> > those of RL protagonists all along those 50-60 years of ME development.
>
> Dwarves modelled after Jews? I think you should be careful about that one.
See below (Khuzdul and Adunaic were given a 'Semitic flavour').
Stephen has already pointed out the "vowel-dropping".
> ... As for co-existence
> of Dwarves and Men. Is that kind of like how Jews have co-existed with Men
> in the real world . i.e Jews are some type of Demi-human? Or is it more like
> Jews are a different race who have coexisted with other races - i.e. what
> every other race on Earth has done at some point or another.
i.e. division of labour where Dwarves specialise in trade, metals and
gems, and Men - in agriculture. The same broadly holds for the RL
(outside Israel, that is).
> I'm not suggesting you are an antisemite, only that you be careful on this
> thread, lest someone actually does accuse you of it.
> What exactly did Tolkien say about how he modelled dwarves on Jews? I was
> under the impression
> that the dwarves were modelled on Teutonic and Scandinavian folklore, like
> many other elements in LOTR.
"I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their
habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent
If you read the Notion Club Papers and other stuff on Adunaic and
Khuzdul, you'll find more references in the linguistic department
(markedly the uvular r in LotR Appendix F IIRC).
Of course, the skeleton for the Dwarven race (starting with the Hobbit)
was taked from the Edda, so much of their look derives from Norse
mythology. One also has to be aware of the original
Gnomes/Noldoli/Noldor, whose motives included love to gold and jewels. As
years went by, Tolkien ascribed less lust for gold to the Noldor and with
the emergence of Dwarves he transferred that passion to the latter.
Raven
news:zVmfb.3897$d1....@nntpserver.swip.net...
> "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> skrev i
meddelandet
> news:msFeb.2933$f83....@news.get2net.dk...
> > The Dwarves were not particularly secretive about their language.
> I'm afraid you are wrong. Here is what Tolkien says on the matter:
> "Yet in secret (a secret which unlike the Elves, they did not willingly
> unlock, even to their friends) they used their own strange tongue, changed
> little by be years; for it had become a tongue of lore rather than
> cradle-speech, and they tended it and guarded it as a treasure of the
> past."
Well, I was wrong in saying that they were not particularly secretive
about their language. They were not absolutely secretive. One long essay,
written late and found in PoME 12, is preceded by "The Dwarves do not gladly
teach their tongue to those of alien race", and later in the same paragraph,
"In ancient days the Naugrim dwelt in many mountains of Middle-earth, and
there they met mortal Men (they say) long ere the Eldar knew them; whence it
comes that of the tongues of the Easterlings many show kinship with
Dwarf-speech rather than with the speeches of the Elves."
The essay proper contains this passage, after describing the alliance
between Men and Longbeard Dwarves in the Second Age against Orcs fleeing
masterless from the War of Wrath:
"It was at that time, when the Dwarves were associated with Men both in
war and the ordering of the lands that they had secured, that the Longbeards
adopted the speech of Men for communication with them. They were not
unwilling to teach their own tongue to Men with whom they had special
friendship, but Men found it difficult and were slow to learn more than
isolated words, many of which they adapted and took into their own language.
But on one point the Longbeards were as rigidly secretive as all other
Dwarves. For reasons which neither Elves nor Men ever fully understood they
would not reveal any personal names to people of other kin, nor later when
they had aquired the arts of writing allow them ever to be carved or
written."
The language of Númenor, descended from the languages of the Atani who
came to Beleriand, showed likenesses with Khuzdul, indicating that Dwarves
had taught their language to the ancestors of the Atani. Not just in the
vocabulary, but in the structure of the words themselves, namely the
consonant base of words, with inserted and changing vowels inflecting the
basic meaning. Perhaps the Dwarves taught the ancestors to the Atani at a
time when the latter had not developed much language of their own at all.
So we have two known instances of Dwarves teaching their language to Men.
Korpen.
Henriette
> AC <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message news:<slrnbmbugs...@namibia.tandem>...
> > On 15 Sep 2003 09:48:55 -0700,
> > Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > > maybe JRRT meant to say that seriousness is sometimes overestimated
> > > and "silliness" underestimated. In that case, he and I would be of
> > > like mind in that respect.
> >
> > Perhaps, but at the same time I try to correlate the Elves in The Hobbit
> > with the likes of Glorifindel.
>
> Not all of the elves are described as sad or grave in LotR.
> "Some like kings, terrible and splendid; and some merry as children".
> And the elf Lindir is very "silly" in my opinion.
I am under the impression that "silliness" is generally not much
appreciated in society, as it isn't amongst many posters on AFT. This
would be an interesting subject for an in-depth analysis with the
thesis: does it have something to do with the underappreciation of the
"child within"?
Henriette
Een Wilde Ier
> henrik_g...@hotmail.com (becte) wrote in message news:<b406cd26.03100...@posting.google.com>...
>>Not all of the elves are described as sad or grave in LotR.
>>"Some like kings, terrible and splendid; and some merry as children".
>>And the elf Lindir is very "silly" in my opinion.
>
>
> I am under the impression that "silliness" is generally not much
> appreciated in society, as it isn't amongst many posters on AFT. This
> would be an interesting subject for an in-depth analysis with the
> thesis: does it have something to do with the underappreciation of the
> "child within"?
Or even the "Hobbit within"...
--
Een Wilde Ier
If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught
and shot now. - Douglas Adams
AC
Een Wilde Ier <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Henriette wrote:
>> henrik_g...@hotmail.com (becte) wrote in message news:<b406cd26.03100...@posting.google.com>...
><snip>
>>>Not all of the elves are described as sad or grave in LotR.
>>>"Some like kings, terrible and splendid; and some merry as children".
>>>And the elf Lindir is very "silly" in my opinion.
>>
>>
>> I am under the impression that "silliness" is generally not much
>> appreciated in society, as it isn't amongst many posters on AFT. This
>> would be an interesting subject for an in-depth analysis with the
>> thesis: does it have something to do with the underappreciation of the
>> "child within"?
>
> Or even the "Hobbit within"...
Just as long as we don't attempt to analyze my inner Balrog.
--
Aaron Clausen
The Arcane Chas
contemplation, Raven <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> put
finger to keyboard and produced the following;
>"Öjevind Lång" <dnivej...@swipnet.se> skrev i en meddelelse
>news:zVmfb.3897$d1....@nntpserver.swip.net...
>
>> "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> skrev i
>meddelandet
>> news:msFeb.2933$f83....@news.get2net.dk...
>
>> > The Dwarves were not particularly secretive about their language.
>
>> I'm afraid you are wrong. Here is what Tolkien says on the matter:
>
>> "Yet in secret (a secret which unlike the Elves, they did not willingly
>> unlock, even to their friends) they used their own strange tongue, changed
>> little by be years; for it had become a tongue of lore rather than
>> cradle-speech, and they tended it and guarded it as a treasure of the
>> past."
>
> Well, I was wrong in saying that they were not particularly secretive
>about their language. They were not absolutely secretive.
And yet Gandalf believed otherwise;
"I shall not have to call on Gimli for words of the secret dwarf-tongue
that they teach to none".
>One long essay,
>written late and found in PoME 12,
<snip>
--
Cheers,
Chas.
"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination".
Bill O'Meally
"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:be50318e.03100...@posting.google.com...
Well, that's just silly.
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
AC
Chapter 3 of the Hobbit: "A Short Rest". I don't know if I ever got a
response back on it, and it still is a matter of curiousity for me:
> - As the synopsis points out, we have our first glimpses of the Dunedain.
> What I wonder is whether this was present in the pre-LotR editions of The
> Hobbit or not. The paragraph in question is this:
>
> "The master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people whose
> fathers came into the strange stories before the beginning of History, the
> wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men in the North. In
> those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and
> heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was
> their chief."
I'm still curious about this one. Is the above passage present in the first
edition of the Hobbit?
Graham Lockwood
(in article <slrnd6d69a.987....@homo.sapiens.terrificus>):
According to the Annotated Hobbit, yes. It does make a comment at that point,
but it is only to note how Elrond was already present in the Mythology and
Tolkien basically just threw him in there for a dash of flavor (like he did
so many other things in TH). Having named him Elrond, and Elrond being
half-elven in the mythology, he said "what the heck" and made him the chief
of the half-elves.
---
Graham
gp.skinner
> According to the Annotated Hobbit, yes..........
So I'm not the only person to have read the annotated Hobbit, the last time I mentioned it to someone (not on RABT/AFT) no one had heard of it.
Graeme
AC
So I suppose that the notion of the Dunedain was more a happy coincidence
that meshed with this passage from the Hobbit.
Stan Brown
My memory says yes. (I originally read /The Hobbit/ before the
Second Edition was printed.)
Anderson's /The Annotated Hobbit/ confrms it: no changes from the
first edition are noted in that paragraph, the one immediately
preceding, or the one immediately following.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
> My memory says yes. (I originally read /The Hobbit/ before the
> Second Edition was printed.)
!!
Silly question, but I just wonder if there is anyone here who will admit
to having read /The Hobbit/ back in 1937? Apart from softrat that is...
Steuard Jensen
<d46a4k$utj$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>:
> > According to the Annotated Hobbit, yes..........
> So I'm not the only person to have read the annotated Hobbit, the last
> time I mentioned it to someone (not on RABT/AFT) no one had heard of it.
I think that most people who have been here long enough to consider
themselves "regulars" have probably heard of it, and quite a few of us
have read it (often in some detail). I must admit, though, that I
haven't had a chance to read the new edition all the way through yet;
from what research I've done with it, it looks a decent step better
than the original in some ways.
Steuard Jensen
Steuard Jensen
<slrnd6dci8.9lo....@homo.sapiens.terrificus>:
> Graham Lockwood <g-...@yeehawgropes.com> wrote:
[In _The Hobbit_,]
> > ...Elrond was already present in the Mythology and Tolkien
> > basically just threw him in there for a dash of flavor (like he
> > did so many other things in TH). Having named him Elrond, and
> > Elrond being half-elven in the mythology, he said "what the heck"
> > and made him the chief of the half-elves.
> So I suppose that the notion of the Dunedain was more a happy
> coincidence that meshed with this passage from the Hobbit.
Happy coincidence? I'd almost say that the notion of the Dunedain
_originated_ in this passage from _The Hobbit_, at least in part.
(Remember, the "Strider-character" in LotR was originally going to be
a hobbit! I don't think that the notion of the Dunedain, North or
South, really emerged until well into the development of the story.
And Elrond as chief of the half-elves may have encouraged the idea.)
Steuard Jensen
Gregory Hernandez
Erebor which takes place with (IIRC) Gandalf relaying to Gimli, Legolas,
and Frodo the events which led to Bilbo's adventures as the four of them sit
around drinking in apub after Aragorn's coronation. When I read it, it was
like seeing an epilogue to the film trilogy. In fact, I hope that's how
they start the Hobbit when Peter Jackson gets around to filming it.
Greg
"Steuard Jensen" <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:UbB9e.28$45....@news.uchicago.edu...
Stan Brown
For me it was the late 1950s, maybe around 1957 when I was 8. The
children's librarian at the Enoch Pratt Free Library branch at
Edmondson Village shopping center was wonderful -- at least for me
she was always recommending books that I loved, so I'm sure she ot
to know other children equally well and recommended books for their
taste.
Michele Fry
Gregory Hernandez <greg...@earthlink.net> writes
>I especially love the appendix which gives us a version of the Quest for
>Erebor which takes place with (IIRC) Gandalf relaying to Gimli, Legolas,
>and Frodo the events which led to Bilbo's adventures as the four of them sit
>around drinking in apub after Aragorn's coronation. When I read it, it was
>like seeing an epilogue to the film trilogy. In fact, I hope that's how
>they start the Hobbit when Peter Jackson gets around to filming it.
Oh yes - that's one of the (to me) really interesting bits of the
Unfinished Tales...
Michele
==
Leisure without literature is death, or rather the burial of a living
[person].
- Seneca
==
Now reading: A Question of Time - Verlyn Flieger
Quicksilver Rising - Stan Nicholls
Steuard Jensen
<dKB9e.12808$44....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>:
> "Steuard Jensen" <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> > Quoth "gp.skinner" <gp.sk...@nospam.talk21.com>:
[Someone said:]
> > > > According to the Annotated Hobbit, yes..........
> > > So I'm not the only person to have read the annotated Hobbit...
> > ...quite a few of us have read it (often in some detail). I must
> > admit, though, that I haven't had a chance to read the new edition
> > all the way through yet...
> I especially love the appendix which gives us a version of the Quest for
> Erebor which takes place with (IIRC) Gandalf relaying to Gimli, Legolas,
> and Frodo the events which led to Bilbo's adventures...
I agree: that's a great segment (even though I've got to agree that it
would have felt out of place in LotR). And it's great that it's now
getting broader exposure by way of _The Annotated Hobbit_! It was
first published in _Unfinished Tales_ (probably my second favorite
Tolkien book, after LotR), but many people who would enjoy this story
never read UT. (There are a lot of other great bits in UT, too, many
of which would be completely accessible even to people who haven't
read _The Silmarillion_.)
> I hope that's how they start the Hobbit when Peter Jackson gets
> around to filming it.
What an interesting idea. That could provide a good tie-in with the
existing movie trilogy. On the other hand, Jackson might want the
"prequel" to stand on its own more than that. We'll see what he does
(assuming the mess surrounding the rights to the movie ever gets
resolved).
Side note: I should probably pass along a couple of "netiquette"
pointers, since you're new here (at least, I _think_ you're relatively
new here). I've reformatted this post to be a good example of what
you're aiming for. In general, when you reply to an earlier message,
the accepted procedure goes something like this:
0. Make sure that the previous poster's comments are marked somehow.
The most common procedure is to add a "> " at the start of each
quoted line, including lines that were quoted from an earlier
message (thus, any text from _two_ messages back will be marked
twice, with a "> > " before the text). This is "step 0" because
most newsreader programs do it for you automatically; I mention it
only because it looks like yours doesn't.
Also, make sure that you include the name of the previous poster as
attribution, and that you keep the names of any earlier posters
whose text you're quoting. You can see how that works above; note
that the oldest name was apparently lost somewhere along the way,
so I added a "[Someone said:]" to make it clear that a name was
missing.
1. Don't quote the entire message that you're responding to. Delete
any text that you won't specifically comment on, and try to trim
down the parts that are relevant to their most essential bits.
2. Put your reply to each independent bit of the previous message
directly underneath that quoted text. That way, someone who reads
your message can quickly pick up the flow of the conversation that
led to your comments.
For some more general netiquette tips, take a look at the "Newsgroups
and Netiquette" section of my Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ, which you can
find at
(It will also be posted here tomorrow morning, but the web version may
be easier to read and navigate anyway.) Best wishes!
Steuard Jensen
Gregory Hernandez
fairly new here. I've got to get up to snuff if I'm going to help keep the
SIlmarillion CotW discussions up to snuff.
Best Regards,
Gregory H.
Graham Lockwood
(in article <48B9e.16470$G8....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>):
Well, my grandparents could have read it...
---
Graham
Graham Lockwood
(in article <dkP9e.31$45....@news.uchicago.edu>):
> Quoth "Gregory Hernandez" <greg...@earthlink.net> in article
> <dKB9e.12808$44....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>:
>> "Steuard Jensen" <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>> Quoth "gp.skinner" <gp.sk...@nospam.talk21.com>:
> [Someone said:]
>>>>> According to the Annotated Hobbit, yes..........
>
>>>> So I'm not the only person to have read the annotated Hobbit...
>
>>> ...quite a few of us have read it (often in some detail). I must
>>> admit, though, that I haven't had a chance to read the new edition
>>> all the way through yet...
>
>> I especially love the appendix which gives us a version of the Quest for
>> Erebor which takes place with (IIRC) Gandalf relaying to Gimli, Legolas,
>> and Frodo the events which led to Bilbo's adventures...
{snip}
>> I hope that's how they start the Hobbit when Peter Jackson gets
>> around to filming it.
>
> What an interesting idea. That could provide a good tie-in with the
> existing movie trilogy. On the other hand, Jackson might want the
> "prequel" to stand on its own more than that. We'll see what he does
> (assuming the mess surrounding the rights to the movie ever gets
> resolved).
{snip}
I seriously doubt that this scene will be in any future PJ Hobbit movie. The
rights to _The Hobbit_ may get resolved, but the "Quest for Erebor" is NOT
part of TH. The rights to TH where sold long before QfE was published and I
highly doubt that CT would be willing to sell the movie rights to it.
---
Graham