Chapter of the Week, Bk 2, Ch 5 - The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
gp.skinner
The chapter opens with the fellowship standing beside Balin's tomb. Frodo
thinks of Bilbo, his friendship with Balin, and the dwarf visiting the
Shire.[1] After a while they look around the room, bones litter the floor by
the doors. Amongst the bones they see various weapons some of which are
those of orcs.[2]
From one of the recesses that were cut into the walls Gandalf retrieves a
damaged (slashed, stabbed, charred, basically well and truly mangled)
book.[3] Frodo and Gimli watch on as Gandalf carefully looks at the fragile
pages (upon which different styles of writing were evident - runes of Moria,
Dale, and Elvish script).
Gandalf then goes on to read what parts of the book are still legible
(though some pages are missing and much of the text obscured). In brief the
book starts off with Balin (and his companions) arriving at the Dimrill
Dale, their fight to clear orcs from the great gate, Floi being killed. The
book goes onto record "Balin has set up his seat in the Chamber of
Mazarbul."[4] It also shows they discovered truesilver. Much of the
remaining pages were too damaged to make much sense of until Gandalf finds a
page written in Elvish script (".Ori's hand," said Gimli). Ori had recorded
the death of Balin[5] who was killed by an orc as he looked into Mirror
mere, he also wrote of the companies last stand after the deaths of Loni and
Nali; Oin was killed by the watcher in the water. Some of the final entries
in the book are ".drums, drums in the deep." Then, "they are coming."[6]
Following his examination of the book Gandalf gives it to Gimli to take back
for Dain (lets just hope it did not weigh too much), then he gets the
fellowship ready to move.[7]
With the knowledge of where they stood within Moria Gandalf told the
fellowship which route they should take out of Moria. As Gandalf finished
telling them the route they heard ".a great noise: a rolling Boom that
seemed to come from depths far bellow, and to tremble in the stone at their
feet." Following the initial noise the great drum beat continued, then the
sound of a horn, and the sound of hurrying feet (I'm fairly sure the feet
had bodies joined to them).
After a short discourse[8] they draw their weapons - Glamdring shone, Sting
glinted. Gandalf looks out of the chamber into the passageway and tells of
the approach of orcs, Uruks of Mordor, and a cave-troll. Aragorn who was
standing by the other door (eastern) reports no sound of approach from that
direction.
Boromir closes and jams the door against the approaching orcs, the
fellowship retreat and something strikes the door, which then slowly begins
to open. A large green-scaled arm reaches through the gap, Boromirs sword is
turned aside and Frodo jumps forward stabbing the creature's foot, (at this
point I'd have been around ten miles away and still running). The door is
broken/forced open by the attacking host which then rushed into the chamber
a short fight follows in which Sam receives a scalp wound, when the
fellowship had killed 13 orcs the rest ran away.[9]
Gandalf calls for the company to move on. They made towards the eastern
door, at the same time however a large orc entered the chamber carrying a
spear, the orc pushed Boromir out of his way, avoided Aragorn, and then
threw his spear at Frodo which struck him on his right side. Aragorn kills
the orc; picks up Frodo and the fellowship leave through the eastern door
which Boromir shuts but cannot lock. Frodo tells Aragorn he can walk ok,
Gandalf instructs the fellowship to carry on giving them directions in case
he does not follow soon. The fellowship leave Gandalf and move down the
stairs in darkness, they can hear Gandalf's voice from above, then a bright
light flares above them and the drums go crazy before stopping.
Gandalf comes running down and they continue going straight and descending a
few flights stairs as they go, the drums resume. After an hour Gandalf stops
and says they should be on the same level as the gate. Gimli asks what had
happened at the door, and if he'd met the beater of the drums. Gandalf
responded by saying he did not know "But I found myself suddenly faced by
something that I have not met before."[10] He goes on to say how he'd tried
to keep the door closed with a spell, but whatever was in the chamber
(besides the orcs) had recognised his spell and tried a counter spell. The
door broke under the strain of the two spells, ".Something dark as a cloud
was blocking out all the light inside," the walls and roof of the chamber
gave way.
Gandalf then goes on to ask how Frodo is feeling, who replies he's bruised
and in pain but not too bad. Aragorn comments that hobbits made of tuff
stuff, Gandalf then says "There is more to you than meets the eye."[11].
The fellowship move on, Gimli notices a red light ahead. Gandalf says the
lower levels must be on fire. As they continue the light gets brighter and
the air became hot. Gandalf stops the company and goes ahead, when he
returns he tells the company he knows where they are and that the gates are
near. As they move forward into the Second Hall of Old Moria, they see ". a
great fissure had opened. Out of it a fierce red light came," Upon seeing
this Gandalf tells them that if they had come by the main road they'd have
been trapped, he then urges them on towards the bridge.
Arrows fly from the other side of the fire, Boromir laughs at the orcs
misfortune (being on the wrong side of the fire). Gandalf cautions them that
the bridge is narrow. Frodo sees that the door they wish to take is on the
far side of a chasm over which spanned a slender [12] curved bridge without
kerb or rail. Not the sort of bridge you'd wish to use if you feared
heights!
Gandalf halts them at the edge of the bridge and tells Gimli to lead the
way, with Pippin and Merry to follow him. Arrows continued to fall, one
striking Frodo (with no effect), another ending up through Gandalf's hat.
Frodo could see hundreds of orcs beyond the fire; the drums grow louder.
Legolas who was readying an arrow to shoot across at the orcs sees two
trolls bearing slabs of stone to bridge the fire, the orcs seemed afraid of
something and opened a path at first all he sees is ". a great shadow, in
the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe," when it was at the
edge of the fissure of fire the light faded. The flames increased as the
creature jumps across the fissure - it carried a blade "like a stabbing
tongue of fire" in its right hand, and a whip in its left. Legolas
recognises it as a Balrog and shouts warning to the others. The Balrog with
its mane flaming behind it rushes towards the fellowship and the orcs
follow. Boromir blows his horn and the approaching Balrog and orcs pause
before again approaching the fellowship.
Gandalf shouts at the fellowship to run over the bridge, that the Balrog was
beyond their strength to fight. Aragorn and Boromir do not move[13] the
others stop at the doorway then decide they can not let Gandalf face the
Balrog alone. As the Balrog reaches the bridge Gandalf stands in the centre
of the span, with his staff held in his left hand and his sword in the
other. The Balrog stops ". and the shadows about it reached out like two
vast wings."[14]
Gandalf tells the Balrog that he can not pass, as he is a servant of the
secret fire and wielder of the flame of Anor.[15]
The Balrog does not say anything (many people will argue about whether
Balrogs had wings or not, but could they talk? If so what language did they
speak?) but its fire in it seemed to die and the darkness increased as it
stepped onto the bridge drawing itself up to its full height, we are told
Gandalf looks tiny in comparison. The Balrog's flaming sword swings at
Gandalf who blocks the blow with his sword resulting in the Balrog falling
back its sword broken. The Balrog jumps onto the bridge with its whip ready.
Aragorn and Boromir run back along to bridge to aid Gandalf.
Then Gandalf raises his staff, and shouts as he strikes the bridge at his
feet. His staff is broken and white flames spring up. At the Balrog's feet
the bridge cracks at the stone falls into the chasm below leaving the half
where Gandalf, Aragorn, and Boromir stood remaining.
As it fell the Balrog cried out, and it vanished into the chasm, yet as it
fell its whip lashed out and wraps around Gandalf's knees pulling him to the
edge of the broken bridge, he staggers then falls into the chasm crying
"fly, you fools!"[16]
After the fall of Gandalf and the Balrog, the fire went out, the company
stood in shock until Aragorn urged them on saying that he would lead them
from the mines. Frodo and Sam wept[17] as they followed Aragorn; in the
background the beat of the drums could be still heard.
They left the mines with Aragorn killing the Orc captain who was guarding
the doorway, the remaining orc guard fled from him. It was not until they
were out of range from orc arrows and they stood in the Dimrill Dale.
When they looked back black smoke came from the mountain, drums could still
be heard in the distance, slowly fading as the company stood in grief.
_________________________________
NOTES
[1] I can remember thinking when I first read this passage (feels like a
long time ago now) that Balin must have visited at some point whilst Frodo
was living at Bag End - I don't know why as Balin left for Moria in the same
year that Frodo moved into Bag End (2989). So did Balin visit on his way to
Moria, or was it just the way I first read it?
[2] Why did none of them notice the signs of battle until now, you'd think
one of them would have been on their guard enough in such a dank dark place.
[3] I've always loved this bit (strange I know), but then I like looking
through dusty bookshops.
[4] Chamber of Records as translated by Gimli.
[5] It's a pity that nothing in detail is written about Balin and his
attempt to retake Moria.
[6] I had to include the quotes 'drums' & 'they're coming', it can still
send a shiver down my spine when I read this passage, its probably something
to do with having an overactive imagination.
[7] One of Gandalfs comments in this paragraph regarding Balin's attempt to
retake Moria ". so ended the attempt to retake Moria! It was valiant but
foolish. The time is not come yet." Did Gandalf already know what had
happened to Balin before they entered Moria, when do you suppose was the
right time to retake it (apart from after the downfall of Sauron).
[8] None of them said anything close to what my reaction would have been in
that situation.
[9] Cowards - There's no honour amongst orcs these days.
[10] I take this as he felt the presence of the balrog coming into the
chamber, though I'm surprised that Gandalf had not met one before - when you
consider the amount of time he'd already been travelling around Middle Earth
by then.
[11] You don't get much past Gandalf - or perhaps Bilbo had already told him
that he'd given the Mithril shirt along with Sting to Frodo.
[12] So slender that it had to be crossed in single file.
[13] I'd have been running so hard by now you'd have seen flames from my
boots.
[14] Ok - you can now start discussing Balrogs wings / or lack of them. I'd
never considered them to be winged creatures before I looked at a picture of
the scene (on a calendar years ago). I've read the passage many times now
and I still stand on the no wing side of the fence as I see the relevant
part of the sentence to be ".reached out LIKE two vast wings."
[15] The full version of Gandalfs statement is in my view an excellent piece
of writing by JRRT, for you get a lot of information in just four lines
(well its 4 lines in the copy I'm using for this anyway).
[16] I don't know about you, but the first time I read this the only thing
that went through my mind was "you can't do that to Gandalf!" Was this an
instance of self-sacrifice on Gandalfs part to ensure the rest of the
fellowship escaped from Moria, or was he aware that he could be sent back if
he died? As last words go "fly you fools" is fairly brief, though I suppose
a full set of instructions would be a bit difficult as you hurtle down after
the Balrog.
[17] Probably some of the others did too but its not mentioned, Pippin has
always struck me as the one who would likely have been in floods of tears by
this point.
_____________________
Graeme
AC
gp.skinner <gp.sk...@NOSPAM.talk21.com> wrote:
> Book II Chapter V - The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
<snip excellent summary>
>
> [5] It's a pity that nothing in detail is written about Balin and his
> attempt to retake Moria.
Yes. That would have made a fascinating, though very sad story.
>
> [6] I had to include the quotes 'drums' & 'they're coming', it can still
> send a shiver down my spine when I read this passage, its probably something
> to do with having an overactive imagination.
This is one of the creepier pieces of writing in the entire book. The whole
sequence from Balin's Tomb to Gandalf's fall is a combination of thriller,
horror and action.
>
> [7] One of Gandalfs comments in this paragraph regarding Balin's attempt to
> retake Moria ". so ended the attempt to retake Moria! It was valiant but
> foolish. The time is not come yet." Did Gandalf already know what had
> happened to Balin before they entered Moria, when do you suppose was the
> right time to retake it (apart from after the downfall of Sauron).
It seems to me that the notion was that the failure to retake Moria was
rather inevitable. I don't think Gandalf had any foreknowledge of Balin's
death and the failure of Durin's folk to create anew Khazad-dum.
> [10] I take this as he felt the presence of the balrog coming into the
> chamber, though I'm surprised that Gandalf had not met one before - when you
> consider the amount of time he'd already been travelling around Middle Earth
> by then.
The impression that I get is that the Balrog of Moria was the last of its
kind. Whether Gandalf had ever, before or during his time in Ea encountered
one of these Maiar I don't know. I think this fits nicely, however, with
another current thread about sensing the Ring that beings of power could
sense another power, but possibly not the identity.
> [14] Ok - you can now start discussing Balrogs wings / or lack of them. I'd
> never considered them to be winged creatures before I looked at a picture of
> the scene (on a calendar years ago). I've read the passage many times now
> and I still stand on the no wing side of the fence as I see the relevant
> part of the sentence to be ".reached out LIKE two vast wings."
I don't think it's important to the narrative, and you won't find me getting
dragged into this ancient flamewar.
> [16] I don't know about you, but the first time I read this the only thing
> that went through my mind was "you can't do that to Gandalf!" Was this an
> instance of self-sacrifice on Gandalfs part to ensure the rest of the
> fellowship escaped from Moria, or was he aware that he could be sent back if
> he died? As last words go "fly you fools" is fairly brief, though I suppose
> a full set of instructions would be a bit difficult as you hurtle down after
> the Balrog.
Well, Gandalf's ultimate goal was to get the Ring to Sammath Naur, and since
no one else there had a hope in hell against the Balrog, it was up to him.
I don't know whether he expected to die or not, though the history of
Balrog-killers would not have, I'm sure, filled him with much hope.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
gp.skinner
> > [5] It's a pity that nothing in detail is written about Balin and his
> > attempt to retake Moria.
> Yes. That would have made a fascinating, though very sad story.
Sad last few pages perhaps but the build up would be worth it - though with
an ending where all the 'good guys' die would probably not sell very well.
> > [6] I had to include the quotes 'drums' & 'they're coming', it can still
> > send a shiver down my spine when I read this passage, its probably
something
> > to do with having an overactive imagination.
> This is one of the creepier pieces of writing in the entire book. The
whole
> sequence from Balin's Tomb to Gandalf's fall is a combination of thriller,
> horror and action.
For me, the way JRRT kept the drums as a constant throughout the rest of the
chapter was excellent. It almost gave you an insight into what the enemy was
thinking (or how excited the enemy was).
> > [14] Ok - you can now start discussing Balrogs wings / or lack of them.
I'd
> > never considered them to be winged creatures before I looked at a
picture of
> > the scene (on a calendar years ago). I've read the passage many times
now
> > and I still stand on the no wing side of the fence as I see the relevant
> > part of the sentence to be ".reached out LIKE two vast wings."
>
> I don't think it's important to the narrative, and you won't find me
getting
> dragged into this ancient flamewar.
>
No, I'm not getting dragged into it either, but it seemed likely when I was
putting the notes together that one would erupt again. I've said my piece on
the matter above and thats pretty much it.
> > [16] I don't know about you, but the first time I read this the only
thing
> > that went through my mind was "you can't do that to Gandalf!" Was this
an
> > instance of self-sacrifice on Gandalfs part to ensure the rest of the
> > fellowship escaped from Moria, or was he aware that he could be sent
back if
> > he died? As last words go "fly you fools" is fairly brief, though I
suppose
> > a full set of instructions would be a bit difficult as you hurtle down
after
> > the Balrog.
>
> Well, Gandalf's ultimate goal was to get the Ring to Sammath Naur, and
since
> no one else there had a hope in hell against the Balrog, it was up to him.
> I don't know whether he expected to die or not, though the history of
> Balrog-killers would not have, I'm sure, filled him with much hope.
>
Gandalf was the only one I agree to go up against the Balrog, Aragorn would
have been my second choice for the fight but I'd say he would only slow it
down enough whilst the others could run away.
Graeme
Kristian Damm Jensen
> Book II Chapter V - The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
<snip>
> From one of the recesses that were cut into the walls Gandalf retrieves a
> damaged (slashed, stabbed, charred, basically well and truly mangled)
> book.
There should be a law against treating books like that. :-)
<snip>
> Following his examination of the book Gandalf gives it to Gimli to take back
> for Dain (lets just hope it did not weigh too much),
Who cares? He's a dwarf.
> then he gets the
> fellowship ready to move.[7]
<snip>
> Gandalf halts them at the edge of the bridge and tells Gimli to lead the
> way, with Pippin and Merry to follow him. Arrows continued to fall, one
> striking Frodo (with no effect), another ending up through Gandalf's hat.
> Frodo could see hundreds of orcs beyond the fire; the drums grow louder.
Am I the only one to get a slight smile from Gandalfs newly addorned
hat?
<snip>
> After the fall of Gandalf and the Balrog, the fire went out, the company
> stood in shock until Aragorn urged them on saying that he would lead them
> from the mines. Frodo and Sam wept[17] as they followed Aragorn; in the
> background the beat of the drums could be still heard.
It's worthy of some note, that though Aragorn was the one more
attached to Gandalf, he apparently recovers before Boromir does.
What exactly was the relationship between the two? Friends, certainly.
But did Gandalf in a way play the role of the father Aragorn never
knew? Galdalf looks like the mentor, yet it is him that comes to
Aragorn for advice regarding Gollum.
<snip>
> [10] I take this as he felt the presence of the balrog coming into the
> chamber, though I'm surprised that Gandalf had not met one before - when you
> consider the amount of time he'd already been travelling around Middle Earth
> by then.
Where would he have met one? For all we know this is the last
surviving balrog.
<snip>
> [16] I don't know about you, but the first time I read this the only thing
> that went through my mind was "you can't do that to Gandalf!" Was this an
> instance of self-sacrifice on Gandalfs part to ensure the rest of the
> fellowship escaped from Moria, or was he aware that he could be sent back if
> he died? As last words go "fly you fools" is fairly brief, though I suppose
> a full set of instructions would be a bit difficult as you hurtle down after
> the Balrog.
According to the author Gandalf didn't know he was going to be sent
back:
"for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could
direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was
in vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules,
and giving up personal hope of success."
-- Letters #156
Note especially "giving up personal hope of success".
<snip>
Kristian
gp.skinner
> > From one of the recesses that were cut into the walls Gandalf retrieves
a
> > damaged (slashed, stabbed, charred, basically well and truly mangled)
> > book.
> There should be a law against treating books like that. :-)
> <snip>
>
> > Following his examination of the book Gandalf gives it to Gimli to take
back
> > for Dain (lets just hope it did not weigh too much),
>
> Who cares? He's a dwarf.
I do, dwarves are cool
> > then he gets the
> > fellowship ready to move.[7]
> <snip>
> > Gandalf halts them at the edge of the bridge and tells Gimli to lead the
> > way, with Pippin and Merry to follow him. Arrows continued to fall, one
> > striking Frodo (with no effect), another ending up through Gandalf's
hat.
> > Frodo could see hundreds of orcs beyond the fire; the drums grow louder.
> Am I the only one to get a slight smile from Gandalfs newly addorned
> hat?
No, I normally smile at that point, its a slight comic moment(?) in the
midst of all the darkness.
> <snip>
>
> > After the fall of Gandalf and the Balrog, the fire went out, the company
> > stood in shock until Aragorn urged them on saying that he would lead
them
> > from the mines. Frodo and Sam wept[17] as they followed Aragorn; in the
> > background the beat of the drums could be still heard.
>
> It's worthy of some note, that though Aragorn was the one more
> attached to Gandalf, he apparently recovers before Boromir does.
>
Perhaps a better attitude towards living in constant threat in the wilds.
> What exactly was the relationship between the two? Friends, certainly.
> But did Gandalf in a way play the role of the father Aragorn never
> knew? Galdalf looks like the mentor, yet it is him that comes to
> Aragorn for advice regarding Gollum.
>
Goods friends and Gandalf in the mentor roll.
> <snip>
>
> > [10] I take this as he felt the presence of the balrog coming into the
> > chamber, though I'm surprised that Gandalf had not met one before - when
you
> > consider the amount of time he'd already been travelling around Middle
Earth
> > by then.
>
> Where would he have met one? For all we know this is the last
> surviving balrog.
>
Just theorizing - anythings possible :-)
> <snip>
>
> > [16] I don't know about you, but the first time I read this the only
thing
> > that went through my mind was "you can't do that to Gandalf!" Was this
an
> > instance of self-sacrifice on Gandalfs part to ensure the rest of the
> > fellowship escaped from Moria, or was he aware that he could be sent
back if
> > he died? As last words go "fly you fools" is fairly brief, though I
suppose
> > a full set of instructions would be a bit difficult as you hurtle down
after
> > the Balrog.
> According to the author Gandalf didn't know he was going to be sent
> back:
> "for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could
> direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was
> in vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules,
> and giving up personal hope of success."
> -- Letters #156
> Note especially "giving up personal hope of success".
Had forgotten that letter, but the "giving up hope..." sounds like
self-sacrifice for the good of the others to me.
Graeme
Christopher Kreuzer
> Book II Chapter V - The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
<snip>
For now, a quick comment about the Balrog.
> faded. The flames increased as the creature jumps across the fissure
Fairly large creature, or good at jumping or er... Hmm.
<snip>
> the darkness
> increased as it stepped onto the bridge drawing itself up to its full
> height, we are told Gandalf looks tiny in comparison.
Again, fairly big, but must have tiny feet to fit on that narrow bridge.
Either that or it is secretly hovering. Oops. :-)
> into the chasm crying "fly, you fools!"[16]
I think he said "fly you fool" to the Balrog... LOL!
<snip>
> [14] Ok - you can now start discussing Balrogs wings / or lack of
> them. I'd never considered them to be winged creatures before I
> looked at a picture of the scene (on a calendar years ago). I've read
> the passage many times now and I still stand on the no wing side of
> the fence as I see the relevant part of the sentence to be ".reached
> out LIKE two vast wings."
Hmm. I started my brief reply to the thread meaning to merely point out
how the narrow bridge set limits on the Balrog's size. Unfortunately I
got sidetracked by snide (and ancient) Balrog wings puns.
I'll try and do better next time!
Hopefully it is all out of the system now.
:-)
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Ancalagon The Black
>
> [2] Why did none of them notice the signs of battle until now, you'd think
> one of them would have been on their guard enough in such a dank dark place.
Khazad-dum is HUGE, and thus far they had been unmolested in their travels.
They obviously thought that the Orcs were far enough away so as not to pose a
threat. Of course after Pippin flung that stone down the well-shaft, they
should have been a lot more wary. Also, their curiosity overcame their guard.
>
> [5] It's a pity that nothing in detail is written about Balin and his
> attempt to retake Moria.
It is quite likely that the Dwarves were too busy fighting to sit and make
accurate records. The Dwarf colony would have been much like a military
outpost, to the records kept would have been of the level of a warship's log,
in terms of detail.
> [6] I had to include the quotes 'drums' & 'they're coming', it can still
> send a shiver down my spine when I read this passage, its probably something
> to do with having an overactive imagination.
This really sets the tone. The Company know that they have a long way to go to
reach the East Gate. They know that whatever is coming for them killed Balin,
and is coming to kill them also. They also know that whatever is coming to
kill them knows Moria a lot better than they do.
> [7] One of Gandalfs comments in this paragraph regarding Balin's attempt to
> retake Moria ". so ended the attempt to retake Moria! It was valiant but
> foolish. The time is not come yet." Did Gandalf already know what had
> happened to Balin before they entered Moria, when do you suppose was the
> right time to retake it (apart from after the downfall of Sauron).
Unless Gamdalf's comments contain a subconcious premonition of events to come,
then they are strange. Even if Sauron was overthrown the day beforehand, there
still remained the Balrog - and Gandalf had no idea such a creature was lurking
in Moria. Any Dwarf host aiming to retake Moria would have to bring Gandalf
(or another Maia) along to deal with this threat, before he passed back over
sea.
> [8] None of them said anything close to what my reaction would have been in
> that situation.
The situation looked like a horrifying repeat of history - there was a distinct
possibility that they would all die right there in that chamber - kind of
clarifies the situation somewhat, don't you think?
>
> [9] Cowards - There's no honour amongst orcs these days.
The Orcs obviously had no idea that they were in fact superior in numbers - they
see 13 of their own fall, and assume that their enemy must be at least twice
that number. The question is: why send so many ( at least 40 Orcs, a cave
troll AND a Balrog) to investigate a stone dropping down a well - did Gollum
have a hand in this?
> [10] I take this as he felt the presence of the balrog coming into the
> chamber, though I'm surprised that Gandalf had not met one before - when you
> consider the amount of time he'd already been travelling around Middle Earth
> by then.
In the War of Wrath, all of the Balrogs were either slain or hid themselves in
very deep places. They kept themselves VERY quiet indeed. They obviously had
no idea what happened to Melkor at the last, and didn't hang around to find
out. They were obviously waiting for "better" days to come along.
As for Gandalf feeling the presence of the Balrog in the Chamber of Mazarbul,
well ANYONE standing where Gandalf was standing would witness the same thing -
a Shadow filling the Chamber. Gandalf knew that something powerful was before
him, and the Balrog would know the same thing, but both would be unaware of the
true nature of the other.
>
> [11] You don't get much past Gandalf - or perhaps Bilbo had already told him
> that he'd given the Mithril shirt along with Sting to Frodo.
Gandalf probably surmised that if Bilbo gave Sting to Frodo, then he would more
than likely give him the Mithril shirt as well - it would make sense.
> [12] So slender that it had to be crossed in single file.
The Dwarves probably had tools for breaking the Bridge on its Western end,
thereby isolating the East Gate from the rest of Khazad-dum - close the doors
at the West Gate and Khazad-dum becomes impregnable.
One small point - the Orc word "ghash" meaning "fire". At first this appears to
signify that the lower levels are on fire - which turns out to be true.
However, I believe that this is part of the Orcs' description of the Balrog -
"fire spirit" or "fire demon"?
>
> [13] I'd have been running so hard by now you'd have seen flames from my
> boots.
Both Aragorn and Boromir are brave warriors, but the truth is they have no real
idea what it is they are facing - they are more used to facing Orcs, and
Boromir at least has faced the Witch-King. Clearly the Balrog does not project
the kind of latent, visceral terror projected by the Nazgul or the Dead Men of
Dunharrow. The Elf is paralysed with fear because he knows what the Balrog
represents - an extremely capable warrior, with virtually no equal - even
Sauron and Melkor in their prime would be hard pressed to defeat a Balrog in
physical combat.
>
> [14] Ok - you can now start discussing Balrogs wings / or lack of them. I'd
> never considered them to be winged creatures before I looked at a picture of
> the scene (on a calendar years ago). I've read the passage many times now
> and I still stand on the no wing side of the fence as I see the relevant
> part of the sentence to be ".reached out LIKE two vast wings."
I am with you on this one. I too had never considered Balrogs to be winged, for
many reasons. The most important one is this: when the bridge cracks beneath
its feet the Balrog cries out - clearly it is caught by surprise. It then
makes no attempt to fly out of the chasm. The Balrog quite plainly knew what
was at the bottom of the chasm - why would a creature of fire deliberately fall
into deep, cold water?
A point to consider here is that this passage is written from the perspective of
the Company (at least to my mind) - what *they* see and hear, hence "...reached
out like two vast wings." If anyone had asked them afterwards what they saw,
that is the description they would have given. Clearly the clouds of smoke and
fume and Shadow wrapped around the Balrog were affected by the air currents
rising from the chasm, which is why they rose and spread to fill the hall.
A less tangible reason is this: in Tolkien's main works (The Silmarillion, The
Hobbit, The Lord Of The Rings) all of the flying creatures are explicitly
described as capable of taking to the air:
- Thuringwethil
- Thorondor
- Ancalagon The Black
- Smaug
- Gwaihir & Landhroval
- The winged steeds of the Nazgul
Did Balrogs talk? I'm going to go out on a limb and say "no", simply because
there may have been no *need*. This not to say that they were not capable of
it. I'm sure Melkor and Sauron could communicate telepathically - how else
would Sauron summon the Nazgul to the Sammath Naur? The Balrog could probably
imprint its will upon the chief Orcs, who in turn would pass orders onto the
others.
> [15] The full version of Gandalfs statement is in my view an excellent piece
> of writing by JRRT, for you get a lot of information in just four lines
> (well its 4 lines in the copy I'm using for this anyway).
This part reminds me much of the confrontation between Melkor (could Melkor
wreathe himself in Shadow?) and Fingolfin before the gates of Angband, with the
Enemy casting a huge shadow, making him seem far greater than he really was,
and the words of "the good guy" still managing to cast doubt into the Enemy's
mind.
>
> [16] I don't know about you, but the first time I read this the only thing
> that went through my mind was "you can't do that to Gandalf!" Was this an
> instance of self-sacrifice on Gandalfs part to ensure the rest of the
> fellowship escaped from Moria, or was he aware that he could be sent back if
> he died? As last words go "fly you fools" is fairly brief, though I suppose
> a full set of instructions would be a bit difficult as you hurtle down after
> the Balrog.
I wouldn't call it self-sacrifice - Gandalf had the full weight of the Balrog
dragging him down, and a flaming whip wrapped around his legs - he didn't have
much choice but to fall. His words were simple - get out before the Orcs come
to their senses and finish off the rest of you.
Best,
--
Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband
ancalagon...@virgin.net
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Christopher Kreuzer
> Book II Chapter V - The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
<snip>
> As they move forward into the Second
> Hall of Old Moria, they see ". a great fissure had opened. Out of it
> a fierce red light came," Upon seeing this Gandalf tells them that if
> they had come by the main road they'd have been trapped
Apparantly the 'lower levels' were on fire. Is this to do with the
Balrog, or is this due to some volcanic activity? The chasm opening up
sounds like some seismic event tore the ground apart, and there could be
accompanying volcanism.
<snip>
Dirk Thierbach
> gp.skinner <gp.sk...@NOSPAM.talk21.com> wrote:
>> into the chasm crying "fly, you fools!"[16]
> I think he said "fly you fool" to the Balrog... LOL!
ROTFL. Thanks. You made my day.
- Dirk
gp.skinner
> > As they move forward into the Second
> > Hall of Old Moria, they see ". a great fissure had opened. Out of it
> > a fierce red light came," Upon seeing this Gandalf tells them that if
> > they had come by the main road they'd have been trapped
> Apparantly the 'lower levels' were on fire. Is this to do with the
> Balrog, or is this due to some volcanic activity? The chasm opening up
> sounds like some seismic event tore the ground apart, and there could be
> accompanying volcanism.
If the fissure was natural it was lucky the whole hall did not collapse, its
also lucky the bridge did not crumble away if the area had been experiencing
seismic activity.
I've always taken it to mean that the Balrog had a hand in the fire blocking
off the fellowships escape route, the orcs would not have had the power to
do it, nor a cave-troll.
Graeme
gp.skinner
think
> > one of them would have been on their guard enough in such a dank dark
place.
> Khazad-dum is HUGE, and thus far they had been unmolested in their
travels.
> They obviously thought that the Orcs were far enough away so as not to
pose a
> threat. Of course after Pippin flung that stone down the well-shaft, they
> should have been a lot more wary. Also, their curiosity overcame their
guard.
>
the chamber.
> > [5] It's a pity that nothing in detail is written about Balin and his
> > attempt to retake Moria.
> It is quite likely that the Dwarves were too busy fighting to sit and make
> accurate records. The Dwarf colony would have been much like a military
> outpost, to the records kept would have been of the level of a warship's
log,
> in terms of detail.
Sorry, did not make this one very clear, I meant its a pity JRRT did not
write more about the dwarves, and their attempt on Moria as a separate book
(or as an additional appendices).
> > [6] I had to include the quotes 'drums' & 'they're coming', it can still
> > send a shiver down my spine when I read this passage, its probably
something
> > to do with having an overactive imagination.
> This really sets the tone. The Company know that they have a long way to
go to
> reach the East Gate. They know that whatever is coming for them killed
Balin,
> and is coming to kill them also. They also know that whatever is coming
to
> kill them knows Moria a lot better than they do.
>
Brown trouser time in other words, its funny how sometimes a simple device
like a drum beat can set the tone where other times it can take page upon
page to give the same effect.
<snip>
> > [9] Cowards - There's no honour amongst orcs these days.
> The Orcs obviously had no idea that they were in fact superior in
numbers - they
> see 13 of their own fall, and assume that their enemy must be at least
twice
> that number. The question is: why send so many ( at least 40 Orcs, a
cave
> troll AND a Balrog) to investigate a stone dropping down a well - did
Gollum
> have a hand in this?
I don't think Gollum had a hand in this, he wanted the ring for himself, if
the Orcs had killed the fellowship in the chamber they'd have likely found
the ring whilst robbing the bodies.
> As for Gandalf feeling the presence of the Balrog in the Chamber of
Mazarbul,
> well ANYONE standing where Gandalf was standing would witness the same
thing -
> a Shadow filling the Chamber. Gandalf knew that something powerful was
before
> him, and the Balrog would know the same thing, but both would be unaware
of the
> true nature of the other.
Yes but Gandalf had shut the door at that point though and was using his
shutting spell upon it.
<snip>
> Did Balrogs talk? I'm going to go out on a limb and say "no", simply
because
> there may have been no *need*. This not to say that they were not capable
of
> it. I'm sure Melkor and Sauron could communicate telepathically - how
else
> would Sauron summon the Nazgul to the Sammath Naur? The Balrog could
probably
> imprint its will upon the chief Orcs, who in turn would pass orders onto
the
> others.
I'd not considered how the Balrog would communicate with the Orcs, so
without looking through every book for a reference on the subject I'm going
for the talking Balrog.
> > [15] The full version of Gandalfs statement is in my view an excellent
piece
> > of writing by JRRT, for you get a lot of information in just four lines
> > (well its 4 lines in the copy I'm using for this anyway).
> This part reminds me much of the confrontation between Melkor (could
Melkor
> wreathe himself in Shadow?) and Fingolfin before the gates of Angband,
with the
> Enemy casting a huge shadow, making him seem far greater than he really
was,
> and the words of "the good guy" still managing to cast doubt into the
Enemy's
> mind.
If it weakens the enemy before the attack all the better. (Perhaps we should
be doing CotW on the Sil. next?)
Graeme
AC
Ancalagon The Black <ancalagon...@virgin.net> wrote:
> Graeme wrote:
>
>> [7] One of Gandalfs comments in this paragraph regarding Balin's attempt to
>> retake Moria ". so ended the attempt to retake Moria! It was valiant but
>> foolish. The time is not come yet." Did Gandalf already know what had
>> happened to Balin before they entered Moria, when do you suppose was the
>> right time to retake it (apart from after the downfall of Sauron).
>
> Unless Gamdalf's comments contain a subconcious premonition of events to come,
> then they are strange. Even if Sauron was overthrown the day beforehand, there
> still remained the Balrog - and Gandalf had no idea such a creature was lurking
> in Moria. Any Dwarf host aiming to retake Moria would have to bring Gandalf
> (or another Maia) along to deal with this threat, before he passed back over
> sea.
I think there is some real room for debate on this point. Most certainly,
Durin's folk must have known what the being that evicted them from
Khazad-dum looked like. Unless they were completely secretive, folks like
Gandalf and Elrond must have at least had some suspicions. Let's face it, I
doubt it would be terribly hard to ID a Balrog even from a description by
some spooked Dwarf. The only possibility is that the Dwarves refused to
give any hint as to the nature of the thing that drove them from Khazad-dum.
>
>> [10] I take this as he felt the presence of the balrog coming into the
>> chamber, though I'm surprised that Gandalf had not met one before - when you
>> consider the amount of time he'd already been travelling around Middle Earth
>> by then.
>
> In the War of Wrath, all of the Balrogs were either slain or hid themselves in
> very deep places. They kept themselves VERY quiet indeed. They obviously had
> no idea what happened to Melkor at the last, and didn't hang around to find
> out. They were obviously waiting for "better" days to come along.
I dunno about that. I'm sure the Balrog knew just as well as anyone what
happened to Morgoth. At the very least they must have known that there was
no way, even with all the might of the Angband released, that Morgoth was
going to defeat the hosts of Aman.
>
> As for Gandalf feeling the presence of the Balrog in the Chamber of Mazarbul,
> well ANYONE standing where Gandalf was standing would witness the same thing -
> a Shadow filling the Chamber. Gandalf knew that something powerful was before
> him, and the Balrog would know the same thing, but both would be unaware of the
> true nature of the other.
That's my feeling as well. Powerful beings could sense other powerful
beings, but they might not be able to tell what exactly it was. By the same
token, when Frodo, Sam and Smeagol were in the Morgul Vale, the Witch King
could sense another power, but certainly could not identify it as the Ring.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
AC
>
> I think there is some real room for debate on this point. Most certainly,
> Durin's folk must have known what the being that evicted them from
> Khazad-dum looked like. Unless they were completely secretive, folks like
> Gandalf and Elrond must have at least had some suspicions. Let's face it, I
> doubt it would be terribly hard to ID a Balrog even from a description by
> some spooked Dwarf. The only possibility is that the Dwarves refused to
> give any hint as to the nature of the thing that drove them from Khazad-dum.
An additional thought on this. Khazad-dum was also strengthened by Dwarves
of other kindreds, and I'm assuming that means Belegost and Nogrod.
Certainly rumor of the Balrogs of the First Age must have been known by at
least some of the dwellers of Khazad-dum.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Ancalagon The Black
> An additional thought on this. Khazad-dum was also strengthened by Dwarves
> of other kindreds, and I'm assuming that means Belegost and Nogrod.
> Certainly rumor of the Balrogs of the First Age must have been known by at
> least some of the dwellers of Khazad-dum.
>
And here's another question: Gothmog killed Feanor and Fingon, and then was
defeated by Ecthelion, who died in the process - fought three, won two, drew
one. Another Balrog killed Glorfindel, who also died - fought one, drew one.
Clearly Balrogs can be killed by lesser beings in physical combat, so unless
Khazad-dum was also overrun with Orcs, by rights the Dwarves should have been
able to slay the Balrog, even at great cost to themselves.
Not much is said about the situation in Moria at the time the Balrog stood forth
- does Letters shed any more light on this?
AC
>> of other kindreds, and I'm assuming that means Belegost and Nogrod.
>> Certainly rumor of the Balrogs of the First Age must have been known by at
>> least some of the dwellers of Khazad-dum.
>>
>
> And here's another question: Gothmog killed Feanor and Fingon, and then was
> defeated by Ecthelion, who died in the process - fought three, won two, drew
> one. Another Balrog killed Glorfindel, who also died - fought one, drew one.
>
> Clearly Balrogs can be killed by lesser beings in physical combat, so unless
> Khazad-dum was also overrun with Orcs, by rights the Dwarves should have been
> able to slay the Balrog, even at great cost to themselves.
>
> Not much is said about the situation in Moria at the time the Balrog stood forth
> - does Letters shed any more light on this?
Well, the Noldor were lesser beings compared to the Balrog, but we're
talking about Eldar, born and raised in the light of the Two Trees, and that
probably puts them a good ways above the Dwarves. I would imagine, though
it's never stated, that for every Elf that killed a Balrog, there were
probably a good many Elves slain in turn.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Ancalagon The Black
.
>
> Yes but Gandalf had shut the door at that point though and was using his
> shutting spell upon it.
>
I don't want to get into a nit-picking debate here, but I don't think that
Gandalf had actually physically shut the eastern door at this point - similar
to the Western door of the Chamber, this was a large stone door that required
the strength of Boromir in order to close it.
I think that Gandalf cast a shutting spell to close the door and have it STAY
closed. He was probably finishing off casting the spell (the door was closed
but not "locked") when the Balrog came into the Chamber.
At this point the Balrog issues a counter-spell and the door begins to open.
Gandalf speaks a word of Command and the door shatters. Gandalf expects to see
light coming into the Chamber from one of the high windows, and no doubt a host
of Orcs - instead he is confronted by Shadow.
Christopher Kreuzer
> Gandalf was the only one I agree to go up against the Balrog, Aragorn
> would have been my second choice for the fight but I'd say he would
> only slow it down enough whilst the others could run away.
And then a few minutes later the Balrog would have caught up with them
and squashed them as well. Gandalf was the _only_ one with any chance.
Unless of course the Balrog was just misunderstood and was only after
the hobbits' furry slippers. :-)
Christopher Kreuzer
> The only
> possibility is that the Dwarves refused to give any hint as to the
> nature of the thing that drove them from Khazad-dum.
This is maybe supported by a quote from two chapters further on...
Celeborn: "Alas! We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror
slept. But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil
again...."
This seems to imply that Celeborn was uncertain about the exact nature
of this terror. Then again, barring dwarves from your land doesn't
exactly improve your intelligence gathering!
And even the Dwarves only called it: "Durin's Bane". Not very helpful.
Christopher Kreuzer
> <SNIP>
>>> As they move forward into the Second
>>> Hall of Old Moria, they see ". a great fissure had opened. Out of it
>>> a fierce red light came," Upon seeing this Gandalf tells them that
>>> if they had come by the main road they'd have been trapped
>> Apparantly the 'lower levels' were on fire. Is this to do with the
>> Balrog, or is this due to some volcanic activity? The chasm opening
>> up sounds like some seismic event tore the ground apart, and there
>> could be accompanying volcanism.
Oops. Re-reading the relevant passages, it seems that Gandalf was only
_speculating_ that the lower levels were on fire. In fact, maybe the
Second Deep _was_ these 'lower levels', and they weren't on fire.
Maybe the fire just means the fire in the chasm.
Kristian Damm Jensen
> > <snip>
> > > From one of the recesses that were cut into the walls Gandalf retrieves
> a
> > > damaged (slashed, stabbed, charred, basically well and truly mangled)
> > > book.
> > There should be a law against treating books like that. :-)
> Anyone treating a book like that in my presence will get a good kick.
>
> > <snip>
> >
> > > Following his examination of the book Gandalf gives it to Gimli to take
> back
> > > for Dain (lets just hope it did not weigh too much),
> >
> > Who cares? He's a dwarf.
>
> I do, dwarves are cool
I think you misunderstand me. He's a dwarf, hence capable of carrying
large burdens. He wouldn't worry, why should we?
I do, in fact, care about Gimli.
<snip>
Kristian
gp.skinner
> > shutting spell upon it.
> I don't want to get into a nit-picking debate here, but I don't think that
> Gandalf had actually physically shut the eastern door at this point -
similar
> to the Western door of the Chamber, this was a large stone door that
required
> the strength of Boromir in order to close it.
I don't see it as nit-picking, if the door was well made - as we can assume
it was being built by dwarves, Gandalf should have been able to move it.
> I think that Gandalf cast a shutting spell to close the door and have it
STAY
> closed. He was probably finishing off casting the spell (the door was
closed
> but not "locked") when the Balrog came into the Chamber.
> At this point the Balrog issues a counter-spell and the door begins to
open.
> Gandalf speaks a word of Command and the door shatters. Gandalf expects
to see
> light coming into the Chamber from one of the high windows, and no doubt a
host
> of Orcs - instead he is confronted by Shadow.
If the whole chamber was collapsing then dust and debris would probably
obscure anything inside it.
Cheers
Graeme
Jim Deutch
wrote:
>"gp.skinner" <gp.sk...@NOSPAM.talk21.com> wrote in message news:<40a8...@212.67.96.135>...
>> Book II Chapter V - The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
>> Gandalf halts them at the edge of the bridge and tells Gimli to lead the
>> way, with Pippin and Merry to follow him. Arrows continued to fall, one
>> striking Frodo (with no effect), another ending up through Gandalf's hat.
>> Frodo could see hundreds of orcs beyond the fire; the drums grow louder.
>
>Am I the only one to get a slight smile from Gandalfs newly addorned
>hat?
I always thought it rather cheap of JRRT to have an arrow bounce off
Frodo. Only two of the Company are protected by chain mail, and it's
one of those two that gets hit by an arrow. Sounds more like
something . . . PJ would do!
Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
"Physics is the science of determining which subset of mathematics the
universe respects." - John Schilling
Troels Forchhammer
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
> gp.skinner <gp.sk...@NOSPAM.talk21.com> wrote:
>>
>> Book II Chapter V - The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
<snip>
>> into the chasm crying "fly, you fools!"[16]
>
> I think he said "fly you fool" to the Balrog... LOL!
<style="silly_mood">
No, no, no, no ... No!
He said exactly what was reported, and it obviously means that Fools
have wings and can fly - test them youself!
</style>
<snip>
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>
A Thaum is the basic unit of magical strength. It has been universally
established as the amount of magic needed to create one small white
pigeon or three normal sized billiard balls.
- (Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic)
Ancalagon The Black
> Well, the Noldor were lesser beings compared to the Balrog, but we're
> talking about Eldar, born and raised in the light of the Two Trees, and that
> probably puts them a good ways above the Dwarves. I would imagine, though
> it's never stated, that for every Elf that killed a Balrog, there were
> probably a good many Elves slain in turn.
>
True indeed, but then Azghal and his boys fared much better against Glaurung
than any of the Eldar, and that was in the First Age - the Elves, new-come from
Valinor I might add, were "withered" by the Dragon's fire. I'm willing to bet
that Balrog-fire wasn't quite as hot as Dragon-fire.
I could be wrong though...
Michael O'Neill
> Book II Chapter V - The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
<snip>
One thing which may be covered by other posters to this thread is the
issue of the writing on the Tomb.
IIRC [and I'm no scholar on this], wasn't there a comment that it was the
anglicised version of "Here lies Balin, Son of Fundin, Lord of Moria".
We know hardly any of the Dwarf tongue.
If Dwarves had written it, it would have been either in the Common Speech
or the Dwarf tongue.
IIRC it is neither.
A comment for a summary perhaps - assuming my recollection is correct.
FWIW
M.
Troels Forchhammer
Kristian Damm Jensen <da...@ofir.dk> enriched us with:
>
> "gp.skinner" <gp.sk...@NOSPAM.talk21.com> wrote in message
> news:<40a8...@212.67.96.135>...
>>
>> Book II Chapter V - The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
<snip>
>> From one of the recesses that were cut into the walls Gandalf
>> retrieves a damaged (slashed, stabbed, charred, basically well
>> and truly mangled) book.
>
> There should be a law against treating books like that. :-)
Truly!
<snip>
>> Arrows continued to fall, one striking Frodo (with no effect),
>> another ending up through Gandalf's hat.
>
> Am I the only one to get a slight smile from Gandalfs newly addorned
> hat?
Certainly not - I have always loved that little detail ;-)
<snip>
> What exactly was the relationship between the two? Friends, certainly.
> But did Gandalf in a way play the role of the father Aragorn never
> knew?
I'd think that the role as father for Aragorn was taken by the one in
whose house he grew up - Elrond (and of course he, in the end, becomes
another kind of 'father' to Aragorn).
By keeping in his care Aragorn's various heirlooms I think Elrond at
least put himself in the role of guardian for the fatherless Aragorn, and
the tale in appendix A suggests to me that Elrond helped raising Aragorn
and helped him as advisor. Add to that that Aragorn didn't meet Gandalf
until 2956 (Tale of Years) when he was 25 ...
> Galdalf looks like the mentor, yet it is him that comes to Aragorn for
> advice regarding Gollum.
Friends, I'd say, but with Gandalf being the wiser it's inevitable that
he, in many ways, would end up as also mentor and tutor of the young man.
In some areas, however, Aragorn was the more experienced, and as a ranger
he was probably unparallelled.
<snip>
> -- Letters #156
I had that in mind as well. It is clear that Gandalf thought that he was
sacrificing himself for the quest ("For in his condition it was for him a
/sacrifice/ t operish on the Bridge in defence of his companions" - same
letter, Tolkien's emphasis), and I think that it was this willingness
for self-sacrifice that made Eru accept and enhance him (it also reminds
me of the story of Odin's self-sacrifice because of Tolkien's description
of Gandalf the Grey's physical appearance as an "Odinic wanderer", but I
doubt that this is intentional, though Tolkien possibly recognised it
[possibly after the fact]).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk
The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the
opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.
- Niels Bohr
gp.skinner
> One thing which may be covered by other posters to this thread is the
> issue of the writing on the Tomb.
> IIRC [and I'm no scholar on this], wasn't there a comment that it was the
> anglicised version of "Here lies Balin, Son of Fundin, Lord of Moria".
> We know hardly any of the Dwarf tongue.
> If Dwarves had written it, it would have been either in the Common Speech
> or the Dwarf tongue.
> IIRC it is neither.
> A comment for a summary perhaps - assuming my recollection is correct.
> FWIW
I think its being covered in the chapter 4 thread.
Graeme
Henriette
> Book II Chapter V - The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
>
No personal offence meant ofcourse, but as for the lay-out: in the
beginning I thought this [1][2]etc. idea (which I think Troels came up
with) quite original and handy, but after a couple of chapter
treatments I find the scrolling up and down tiresome. I don't think
*I* will use it again in a chapter treatment.
> From one of the recesses that were cut into the walls Gandalf retrieves a
> damaged (slashed, stabbed, charred, basically well and truly mangled)
> book.[3]
> [3] I've always loved this bit (strange I know), but then I like looking
> through dusty bookshops.
Not strange at all. Nothing like old books: handwritten ones from the
Middle Ages, handwritten ship journals from the 16th century, maps
from the 17th century with lots of blank parts, old letters from times
when other types of letters were used and words hardly remembered...
We (Dutch)have libraries for them with special climate conditions for
better preservation.
> As Gandalf finished
> telling them the route they heard ".a great noise: a rolling Boom that
> seemed to come from depths far bellow, and to tremble in the stone at their
> feet." Following the initial noise the great drum beat continued, then the
> sound of a horn, and the sound of hurrying feet (I'm fairly sure the feet
> had bodies joined to them).
>
Yes, ofcourse. But from the former chapter on I keep noticing how rare
it is in this day and age in which the focus is so much on visuality,
to describe experiences-of-hearing as well as JRRT does. The instances
described here are an example. To the *sound* of the
drum/horn/trembling stone and hurrying feet, the bodies do not matter.
> the fellowship retreat
You are very consistent in writing: the fellowship retreat/leave, etc.
(plural)
Is that grammatically correct? Would singular also be correct?
> [14] Ok - you can now start discussing Balrogs wings / or lack of them. I'd
> never considered them to be winged creatures before I looked at a picture of
> the scene (on a calendar years ago). I've read the passage many times now
> and I still stand on the no wing side of the fence as I see the relevant
> part of the sentence to be ".reached out LIKE two vast wings."
>
I have thought so too , re-read upon re-read. But suddenly I noticed
very clearly, a few lines below '*like* two vast wings': 'suddenly it
drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall
to wall'. Suddenly, upon the 12th re-read, doubt has entered my mind,
after all these years....
I also noticed a detail for the first time: the words 'after noon'
suddenly made me understand the word afternoon, as I remember some
time ago suddenly the meaning of the word breakfast dawned on me
(break fast, as ofcourse you all knew for ages:-).
> [16] I don't know about you, but the first time I read this the only thing
> that went through my mind was "you can't do that to Gandalf!" Was this an
> instance of self-sacrifice on Gandalfs part to ensure the rest of the
> fellowship escaped from Moria (snip)
Yes. It was a foe beyond any of them, so he had no choice.
Henriette
Jim Deutch
>I think there is some real room for debate on this point. Most certainly,
>Durin's folk must have known what the being that evicted them from
>Khazad-dum looked like. Unless they were completely secretive, folks like
You're assuming that at least one dwarf who got within eyesight of the
Balrog escaped alive. Not sure that's even probable.
As far as "unless they completely secretive" goes, practically the
_only_ thing we know about Dwarves is that they were extremely
secretive.
When <insert Dwarf name that escapes me at the moment> defeated Azog
on the steps of Moria and peeked inside the doors, he would never
speak a word after about what he'd seen there. I think Dwarves are
especially unwilling to talk about their fears, and would make very
poor subjects for psychoanalysis.
Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
no time to pick a .sig
gp.skinner
Your welcome, I quite enjoyed doing it.
> No personal offence meant ofcourse, but as for the lay-out: in the
> beginning I thought this [1][2]etc. idea (which I think Troels came up
> with) quite original and handy, but after a couple of chapter
> treatments I find the scrolling up and down tiresome. I don't think
> *I* will use it again in a chapter treatment.
I tried a few formats and this was the one I picked in the end, though I'm
used to reading science texts in this format. Perhaps if I had written fewer
notes it would have been easier on the mouse (less scrolling).
<snip>
> > As Gandalf finished
> > telling them the route they heard ".a great noise: a rolling Boom that
> > seemed to come from depths far bellow, and to tremble in the stone at
their
> > feet." Following the initial noise the great drum beat continued, then
the
> > sound of a horn, and the sound of hurrying feet (I'm fairly sure the
feet
> > had bodies joined to them).
> Yes, ofcourse. But from the former chapter on I keep noticing how rare
> it is in this day and age in which the focus is so much on visuality,
> to describe experiences-of-hearing as well as JRRT does. The instances
> described here are an example. To the *sound* of the
> drum/horn/trembling stone and hurrying feet, the bodies do not matter.
Perhaps television has influenced modern writers to focus on visuality so
much.
> > the fellowship retreat
> You are very consistent in writing: the fellowship retreat/leave, etc.
> (plural)
> Is that grammatically correct? Would singular also be correct?
You're asking the wrong guy, English is my native tongue but writting a
grammatically correct sentance is beyond me.
> > [14] Ok - you can now start discussing Balrogs wings / or lack of them.
I'd
> > never considered them to be winged creatures before I looked at a
picture of
> > the scene (on a calendar years ago). I've read the passage many times
now
> > and I still stand on the no wing side of the fence as I see the relevant
> > part of the sentence to be ".reached out LIKE two vast wings."
> I have thought so too , re-read upon re-read. But suddenly I noticed
> very clearly, a few lines below '*like* two vast wings': 'suddenly it
> drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall
> to wall'. Suddenly, upon the 12th re-read, doubt has entered my mind,
> after all these years....
I think the second mention of wings in this passage just referrs to the
shadow like effect.
Graeme
Christopher Kreuzer
>> <snip>
>> One thing which may be covered by other posters to this thread is the
>> issue of the writing on the Tomb.
<snip>
> I think its being covered in the chapter 4 thread.
Well, yes. It is, after all, in chapter 4... :-)
But for this chapter, we could discuss the writing in the book that they
find in the chamber of Mazarbul:
"...in runes of both Moria and Dale, and here and there in Elvish
script."
Now, I'd assume the runes of Dale to be a Mannish script, and the runes
of Moria to be a Dwarvish script, and the Elvish script to be, er, an
Elvish script! But runes can be used to write a variety of languages, so
I would assume that they are all written in Westron.
At least I would assume that is so, and definitely not in the Dwarvish
language (even if in Dwarvish runes), because I would not expect even
Gandalf to know that secret language. And I believe Dwarves used the
languages of those around them. In this case that would be Westron for
the NW of ME.
But the mixture of runes (alphabets) is surprising. It must have been
very confusing having to learn these different alphabets in ME. How many
different alphabets are there on Earth today? [Major languages that
is...]
Christopher Kreuzer
> When <insert Dwarf name that escapes me at the moment> defeated Azog
Dain II Ironfoot (as he was later known - though he was already
Ironfoot)
Christopher Kreuzer
[about footnote formats]
> I tried a few formats and this was the one I picked in the end,
> though I'm used to reading science texts in this format. Perhaps if I
> had written fewer notes it would have been easier on the mouse (less
> scrolling).
That format is better in HTML and suchlike formats, so you can click
back-and-forth.
Christopher Kreuzer
> "gp.skinner" <gp.sk...@NOSPAM.talk21.com> wrote
>> From one of the recesses that were cut into the walls Gandalf
>> retrieves a damaged (slashed, stabbed, charred, basically well and
>> truly mangled) book.[3]
>> [3] I've always loved this bit (strange I know), but then I like
>> looking through dusty bookshops.
>
> Not strange at all. Nothing like old books: handwritten ones from the
> Middle Ages, handwritten ship journals from the 16th century, maps
> from the 17th century with lots of blank parts, old letters from times
> when other types of letters were used and words hardly remembered...
> We (Dutch)have libraries for them with special climate conditions for
> better preservation.
Old Dutch maps! Mercator(s) and Hondius. Great map-makers. I once saw a
book of modern reproductions of lots of those old maps. Unfortunately it
was about £150. A mite too expensive.
>> the fellowship retreat
>
> You are very consistent in writing: the fellowship retreat/leave, etc.
> (plural) Is that grammatically correct? Would singular also be
correct?
I'd say 'retreated' and 'left', but definitely not 'retreats' and
'leaves'. The fellowship might be a single entity, but it is made up of
many different parts.
Belba Grubb from Stock
<gp.sk...@NOSPAM.talk21.com> wrote:
>[1] I can remember thinking when I first read this passage (feels like a
>long time ago now) that Balin must have visited at some point whilst Frodo
>was living at Bag End - I don't know why as Balin left for Moria in the same
>year that Frodo moved into Bag End (2989). So did Balin visit on his way to
>Moria, or was it just the way I first read it?
That got me thinking that perhaps Balin made several visits to the
Shire, but Frodo's thinking "of Balin's visit to the Shire long ago."
This must refer to the one visit we know about, at the end of "The
Hobbit," in 2949 (Frodo was born in 2968). Bilbo must have spoken
about that visit, and about Balin, who was one of the first dwarves to
take a liking to Bilbo, a lot in Frodo's hearin.
Externally, that moment of recall of the happy, normal Shire works so
well to make the Moria gloom darker and to highlight Frodo's own
plight, so far from home.
>[2] Why did none of them notice the signs of battle until now, you'd think
>one of them would have been on their guard enough in such a dank dark place.
Er, they were blinded by the light? (g)
>[3] I've always loved this bit (strange I know), but then I like looking
>through dusty bookshops.
I have heard that JRRT drew at least a part of the Book of Mazarbul
and tried to get it included in "The Lord of the Rings" as an
illustration, but couldn't. It is available in one of the collections
of his illustrations -- will have to dig up the name and author.
(google)
Right: it was three of the burnt pages, and I think they're in
"Pictures of (by?) J.R.R. Tolkien." I also learned that the images
are online at a Russian site: both images and commentary are taken
from the 1977 "Lord of the Rings" calendar -- isn't that a copyright
infringement?
>[7] One of Gandalfs comments in this paragraph regarding Balin's attempt to
>retake Moria ". so ended the attempt to retake Moria! It was valiant but
>foolish. The time is not come yet." Did Gandalf already know what had
>happened to Balin before they entered Moria, when do you suppose was the
>right time to retake it (apart from after the downfall of Sauron).
Gandalf probably guessed what would happen to such a small group
trying such a big project in such dangerous times. As for the time,
most likely it will be during the time of"Durin VII & Last" as shown
in the Line of the Dwarves of Erebor in Appendix A -- perhaps after
the Last Battle when the Dwarves are busy mending the hurts of the
world (as their own legends predict)?
>[14] Ok - you can now start discussing Balrogs wings / or lack of them. I'd
>never considered them to be winged creatures before I looked at a picture of
>the scene (on a calendar years ago). I've read the passage many times now
>and I still stand on the no wing side of the fence as I see the relevant
>part of the sentence to be ".reached out LIKE two vast wings."
Not the controversy, but it struck me just now how few characters
there are in fiction that have so few words and space in the book and
yet are so famous as the Balrog of Moria. I'd love to be able to
create a character like that.
>[16] I don't know about you, but the first time I read this the only thing
>that went through my mind was "you can't do that to Gandalf!" Was this an
>instance of self-sacrifice on Gandalfs part to ensure the rest of the
>fellowship escaped from Moria, or was he aware that he could be sent back if
>he died? As last words go "fly you fools" is fairly brief, though I suppose
>a full set of instructions would be a bit difficult as you hurtle down after
>the Balrog.
In this and the last chapter we really get a look at the difficult
life of wizards -- some things are easy (the doors of Moria), once you
look at them the right way; much of it is a long, hard slog through
darkness with some tough judgment calls along the way (that turn out
to be right most of the time, if you're Gandalf); sometimes the spells
work, especially if they're in your specialty (lighting the wood on
Caradhras and the trees on the hill of defense against the spectral
wolves), and sometimes they don't (the attempted spell of closing on
the door and its sequelae); and your worst challenges seem to come
when you're already tired. Also, don't ever get too attached to your
staff....
Barb
Christopher Kreuzer
> I have heard that JRRT drew at least a part of the Book of Mazarbul
> and tried to get it included in "The Lord of the Rings" as an
> illustration, but couldn't. It is available in one of the collections
> of his illustrations -- will have to dig up the name and author.
He talks about this in 'Letters' as well:
Letters 137 [plus footnote], 138, 141, 151, 187.
The 'burnt pages' were published as illustration no. 23 in /Pictures/ by
JRR Tolkien.
Tolkien appeared to have wanted the pages blood-stained, but the cost of
colour printing was too much. He did seem to be quite aggrieved:
"Without them the opening of Book Two, ch. 5 (which was meant to have
the facsimilies and a transcript alongside) is defective, and the Runes
of the Appendix unnecessary."
<checks thread title>
Yup. Right chapter.
> Not the controversy, but it struck me just now how few characters
> there are in fiction that have so few words and space in the book and
> yet are so famous as the Balrog of Moria. I'd love to be able to
> create a character like that.
True. This chapter (and a brief appearance in 'The White Rider') is
really 'The Balrog' chapter. The main appearance is only 2 pages out of
over 1000.
But I wouldn't be so sure about there not being other 'brief but famous'
characters in other stories. But I can't actually think of any!
Matthew Woodcraft
>You are very consistent in writing: the fellowship retreat/leave, etc.
>(plural) Is that grammatically correct? Would singular also be
>correct?
I wonder why this comes up so often in this newsgroup. I think it
should go in the FAQ.
One of my favourite letters is letter 218. "You may take your choice."
-M-
Christopher Kreuzer
> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> You are very consistent in writing: the fellowship retreat/leave,
>> etc. (plural) Is that grammatically correct? Would singular also be
>> correct?
>
> I wonder why this comes up so often in this newsgroup. I think it
> should go in the FAQ.
Agreed.
> One of my favourite letters is letter 218. "You may take your choice."
LOL!
Belba Grubb from Stock
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Tolkien appeared to have wanted the pages blood-stained, but the cost of
>colour printing was too much. He did seem to be quite aggrieved:
>
>"Without them the opening of Book Two, ch. 5 (which was meant to have
>the facsimilies and a transcript alongside) is defective, and the Runes
>of the Appendix unnecessary."
A good point -- and he was right about the blood; it shows up well on
the images and is quite ghastly and gruesome. Makes the Chamber of
Mazarbul seem like a very fearful place indeed.
I wonder, though: with so many grand halls, why did Balin set up his
throne in "the library"?
>But I wouldn't be so sure about there not being other 'brief but famous'
>characters in other stories. But I can't actually think of any!
Oh yes, there are some unforgettable BBFs in literature and lore,
though it may seem a contradiction that it's also a little hard to
think of them right away. One has to look at the giants and also
recall the limited space their "feet" rest one. Takes a lot of energy
and some familiarity with the wider body of fiction.
Let's see: Professor Moriarty takes up relatively little space in the
overall collection of Sherlock Holmes tales; but we all know him
because he was described as very evil and took Holmes over the cliff
with him. Hey! Hadn't thought of the possible parallel there with
that. Interesting.
There is Siddhartha's charioteer, for any familiar with that body of
literature.
I'm not very familiar any more with "The Iliad" and "The Odyssey," but
surely there must be at least one BBF in either or both of those
epics. Anybody?
And....
Barb
Igenlode
[snip]
> Most certainly, Durin's folk must have known what the being that
> evicted them from Khazad-dum looked like. Unless they were completely
> secretive, folks like Gandalf and Elrond must have at least had some
> suspicions. Let's face it, I doubt it would be terribly hard to ID a Balrog
> even from a description by some spooked Dwarf. The only possibility
> is that the Dwarves refused to give any hint as to the nature of the
> thing that drove them from Khazad-dum.
Personally, I was quite surprised when Gimli was able to identify a
Balrog on sight as "Durin's Bane!" I suppose I'd always assumed that
nobody knew what Durin's Bane actually was, because none of those who
came up against it survived. But there probably were people who
glimpsed it and yet escaped.
Yet if there were stories of the thing going around in sufficient detail
for a Dwarf who had never seen one to recognise it instantly from its
context, one would have thought, as you say, that the Wise would have
been aware of the rumours.
(Come to that, I suppose one could wonder how Legolas came to be
familiar with the appearance of a Balrog... I just took it for granted
that Elves seemed to be much more knowledgeable about the supernatural
and the Elder Days in general than anyone else, rather than assuming
that he'd personally met one before!)
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
* The old that is strong does not wither *
Christopher Kreuzer
> Personally, I was quite surprised when Gimli was able to identify a
> Balrog on sight as "Durin's Bane!"
> (Come to that, I suppose one could wonder how Legolas came to be
> familiar with the appearance of a Balrog... I just took it for granted
> that Elves seemed to be much more knowledgeable about the supernatural
> and the Elder Days in general than anyone else, rather than assuming
> that he'd personally met one before!)
If you look closely at the Balrog's furry slippers, you will see that
they are carefully monogrammed "Balrog". So Legolas's keen elven vision
takes care of that.
As for Durin's Bane, that is what it says on the Balrog's T-shirt....
:-)
Glenn Holliday
>
> [1] I can remember thinking when I first read this passage (feels like a
> long time ago now) that Balin must have visited at some point whilst Frodo
> was living at Bag End - I don't know why as Balin left for Moria in the same
> year that Frodo moved into Bag End (2989). So did Balin visit on his way to
> Moria, or was it just the way I first read it?
It was Bilbo that Balin visited, so it was probably before Frodo
moved in. It would have been in character for Bilbo to show
off by introducing Balin to his favorite nephew. When Balin
left for Moria Frodo was 30, so Frodo could have had a friendship
and his own memories of Balin from his visits to Bilbo.
Frodo might also have been remembering Balin's visit only from
Bilbo's extensive stories.
> [15] The full version of Gandalfs statement is in my view an excellent piece
> of writing by JRRT, for you get a lot of information in just four lines
But in the context of LOTR it's still a mystery.
Gandalf is obviously claiming some authority and power,
but we don't know enough to grasp what kind.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Glenn Holliday
>
> "gp.skinner" <gp.sk...@NOSPAM.talk21.com> wrote in message news:<40a8...@212.67.96.135>...
>
> > striking Frodo (with no effect), another ending up through Gandalf's hat.
>
> Am I the only one to get a slight smile from Gandalfs newly addorned
> hat?
It's one of those moments that might have been lifted from
The Hobbit.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Shanahan
>> AC mightym...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>I think there is some real room for debate on this point. Most
>>certainly, Durin's folk must have known what the being that
>>evicted them from Khazad-dum looked like. Unless they were
>>completely secretive, folks like
>
> You're assuming that at least one dwarf who got within eyesight
> of the Balrog escaped alive. Not sure that's even probable.
That just creeped me out! I'd never considered that before...the
Shadow seeping up from the depths, unknown, unknowable except by the
destruction it leaves behind. The terror as it gradually takes over
level by level of the city.
- Ciaran S.
-------------------
Shanahan
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>>But I wouldn't be so sure about there not being other 'brief
>>but famous' characters in other stories. But I can't actually
>>think of any!
>
> Oh yes, there are some unforgettable BBFs in literature and
> lore, though it may seem a contradiction that it's also a
> little hard to think of them right away.
> I'm not very familiar any more with "The Iliad" and "The
> Odyssey," but surely there must be at least one BBF in either
> or both of those epics. Anybody?
The Cyclops, the Sirens, Scylla and Charybdis, that chick who turned
all Odysseus' men into pigs? The Trojan Horse? <g>
- Ciaran S.
----------------------------------------------------------------
(reporter asks the Tick): "Uh, can you destroy the Earth?"
Tick: "Egads! I hope not! That's where I keep all my stuff!"
Michael Cole
news:40a95...@127.0.0.1
>> [9] Cowards - There's no honour amongst orcs these days.
>
> The Orcs obviously had no idea that they were in fact superior in
> numbers - they see 13 of their own fall, and assume that their enemy
> must be at least twice that number. The question is: why send so
> many ( at least 40 Orcs, a cave troll AND a Balrog) to investigate a
> stone dropping down a well - did Gollum have a hand in this?
I'd say absolutely not - Gollum was no friend of the Orcs, and the only
reason he was still there was that he couldn't get out the west door.
As for why so many - boredom? Life in Moria doesn't seem to be the most
exciting.
"Ah guys, we need someone to wander up to the fifth level to chcek out..."
"I'll go, I'll go, pick me, pick me..."
>> [10] I take this as he felt the presence of the balrog coming into
>> the chamber, though I'm surprised that Gandalf had not met one
>> before - when you consider the amount of time he'd already been
>> travelling around Middle Earth by then.
>
> In the War of Wrath, all of the Balrogs were either slain or hid
> themselves in very deep places. They kept themselves VERY quiet
> indeed. They obviously had no idea what happened to Melkor at the
> last, and didn't hang around to find out. They were obviously
> waiting for "better" days to come along.
The impression I got was that effectively after fleeing the WoW, he went
into hibernation, much like the dragons did, and only awoke went the dwarves
knocked on his door. As such, it may not have been a concious decision to
keep quiet, it may have been a, "Shit, I'm tired. I'll just a rest for a
couple of minutes ... Who the hell are these dwarves?"
>> [12] So slender that it had to be crossed in single file.
>
> The Dwarves probably had tools for breaking the Bridge on its Western
> end, thereby isolating the East Gate from the rest of Khazad-dum -
> close the doors at the West Gate and Khazad-dum becomes impregnable.
Even without breaking it, it would be pretty much impregnable, at least as
long as the defenders still had archers.
--
Regards,
Michael Cole
Igenlode
> Book II Chapter V - The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
[snip]
> Some of the final entries
> in the book are ".drums, drums in the deep." Then, "they are coming."[6]
I like the way the phrases are then echoed - "They are coming!" cried
Legolas. "We cannot get out," said Gimli - in the following text. It
reinforces the whole ghastly feeling of inevitablity, as they become
trapped in a re-enactment.
(I do wonder why the chamber is only attacked from one side on this
occasion, though. The dwarves were clearly under siege at both doors,
judging by the corpses, so the attackers were aware of the exit. Why
allow the quarry such an obvious escape route? It does seem to be a
very long way round, so I suppose it would be a job to get a second
party up there at short notice...)
>
> Following his examination of the book Gandalf gives it to Gimli to take back
> for Dain (lets just hope it did not weigh too much), then he gets the
> fellowship ready to move.[7]
Presumably Gimli goes on carrying it throughout the rest of the story,
then? (I was a bit surprised when I got to that section - I'd always
assumed that the book was abandoned when they were surprised in the
Chamber of Mazarbul, but apparently not.)
[snip]
> Gandalf looks out of the chamber into the passageway and tells of
> the approach of orcs, Uruks of Mordor, and a cave-troll.
What are 'black Uruks of Mordor' doing so far north of the River, and
when and why did they cross? Are these deserters from Sauron's legions
looking for a quiet life under the ancestral mountains, or /agents
provocateurs/ sent out to influence the Moria-orcs into besieging
Lothlorien? :-)
[snip]
> Gandalf calls for the company to move on. They made towards the eastern
> door, at the same time however a large orc entered the chamber carrying a
> spear, the orc pushed Boromir out of his way, avoided Aragorn, and then
> threw his spear at Frodo which struck him on his right side. Aragorn kills
> the orc; picks up Frodo and the fellowship leave through the eastern door
> which Boromir shuts but cannot lock.
>
I note that Gimli "had to be dragged away by Legolas" when he tried to
linger a few minutes longer beside Balin's tomb - is this an act of
selfless concern as a first sign of the friendship which will spring up
between them after Lorien, or is it just exasperation at the daft
behaviour of the dwarf? :-)
[snip]
> Gandalf comes running down and they continue going straight and descending a
> few flights stairs as they go, the drums resume. After an hour Gandalf stops
> and says they should be on the same level as the gate. Gimli asks what had
> happened at the door, and if he'd met the beater of the drums.
I don't think the drums were anything actually to do with the Balrog.
were they? I assumed they were orc-signals, like the tapping earlier
(although I'm not sure that was orcs - maybe some other mining-creature
living down in the deeps, as Gollum did?)
Did the Balrog climb out from being buried under hundreds of tons of
rock, or was Gandalf's guess wrong and was it never buried in the first
place?
[snip]
> After the fall of Gandalf and the Balrog, the fire went out
That puzzled me a bit too, on re-reading. The fire can't very well have
gone out because the Balrog landed in it, as I'd always half-assumed,
because there really wasn't time for it to have hit the bottom yet. Not
judging by the long descent of Pippin's stone, at any rate, let alone
with the benefit of Gandalf's later description of the fall.
In fact, looking at it more carefully, I see that there *wasn't* any
fire at the bottom of this chasm! It was the 'new' crack that had the
fire (presumably molten rock, unless the Orcs were collecting a great
deal of fuel :-) So it can't have been that the crack was so deep that
it went down into the Earth's mantle, as I'd always thought, since the
older one was if anything deeper, and yet cold and dark.
I suppose, if it was entirely an artificial creation of the Balrog, that
it makes sense that the fires went out when the Balrog's mind was
distracted by other things :-)
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
Never surrender - never give up!
Taemon
> I also learned that the images are online at a Russian site:
> both images and commentary are taken from the 1977 "Lord
> of the Rings" calendar -- isn't that a copyright
> infringement?
And where is the link?
T.
Zaarin
>
> But the mixture of runes (alphabets) is surprising. It must have been
> very confusing having to learn these different alphabets in ME. How many
> different alphabets are there on Earth today? [Major languages that
> is...]
>
> Christopher
>
This is from the top of my head:
Latin
Cyrillic
Arabic
Greek
Chinese characters
Japanese syllabries
Korean
Devanagari
Many other Indian scripts
Whatever that Amharic one is
I think Thai has a script as well (not sure).
It's not actually very confusing, from my experience to learn many
different alphabets (logographies are another matter), what is difficult
is learning their different uses in different languages (like cyrillic in
Russian and Mongolian.)
Zaarin
> grammar marks if you treated it as a plural. You could get around the
> problem by referring to "the members of the fellowship" rather than
> "the fellowship".
>
>
Actually, in nouns which refer to a group of people which is also a single
entry, both are valid, I think. A common example is "the government",
being that I think the vast majority of native English speakers will agree
that both "the government is" and "the government are" are fine. The sense
is very subtly different, apart from the individuality versus collectivity
which it implies. Agreement in number (like agreement in a lot of things)
is very flexible in English in many areas.
Troels Forchhammer
<gp.sk...@NOSPAM.talk21.com> enriched us with:
> Book II Chapter V - The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
Excellent Graeme, thanks.
<snip>
[The diary of Balin's people:]
> It also shows they discovered truesilver.
In the preceeding chapter Gandalf tells us that "The lodes lead away
north towards Caradhras, and down to darkness." And there we also learn
that "since the dwarves fled, no one dares to seek the shafts and
treasuries down in the deep places: they are drowned in water - or in a
shadow of fear." Since it apparently was their digging for mithril that
disturbed the Balrog, I would suppose that the these deep shafts, where
they were mining the truesilver, were certain to be drowned in either
water or fear (or both).
Did Balin's people dare enter the deep places, drowned in water or a
shadow of fear, or did they find true-silver elsewhere? The passage
might mean that the mithril they found was wellforged: "/we found
truesilver/, and later the word /wellforged/ and them something, I have
it! /mithril/;" which would of course mean that they didn't mine the
ore themselves.
<snip>
> Gimli asks what had happened at the door, and if he'd met the beater
> of the drums. Gandalf responded by saying
"'I do not know,' answered Gandalf. `But I found myself
suddenly faced by something that I have not met before.'"
And the drumming continues as the party leaves Moria, "Faint and far
beneath the earth rolled the slow drum-beats: doom. [...] Doom, doom.
The drum-beats faded."
It can, I think, be safely assumed that the drummer was not, as I long
thought, the Balrog itself. However, the drum-beats are an essential
part of the story of their journey in Moria, and as others have noted,
they seems to express the intentions of the enemy quite well. And also
Balin's dwarves noted the "drums in the deep". I can't help wondering
who the drummer is? Some large orc chieftain? A troll? Another of the
nameless creatures mentioned elsewhere?
<snip>
> _________________________________
> NOTES
>
> [1] I can remember thinking when I first read this passage (feels
> like a long time ago now) that Balin must have visited at some
> point whilst Frodo was living at Bag End - I don't know why as
> Balin left for Moria in the same year that Frodo moved into Bag
> End (2989). So did Balin visit on his way to Moria, or was it just
> the way I first read it?
The Tale of Years has the following dates:
2942 Bilbo returns to the Shire with the Ring.
2949 Gandalf and Balin visit Bilbo in the Shire.
(This must be the visit mentioned in /The Hobbit/)
2968 Birth of Frodo.
2989 Balin leaves Erebor and enters Moria.
I had to look about for Frodo coming to live with Bilbo - it's in I,1,
where it says that
" Twelve more years passed. Each year the Bagginses had
given very lively combined birthday-parties at Bag End;
but now it was understood that something quite exceptional
was being planned for that autumn. Bilbo was going to be
eleventy-one, 111, [...]"
So I agree that Frodo must have moved in with Bilbo in 2989.
Furthermore Bilbo appeared not to have known that Balin was gone, when
he went to Dale after leaving the Shire - at least that is how I read
his comment, "I went on with the dwarves to Dale: my last journey. I
shan't travel again. Old Balin had gone away."
However, Frodo "thinks of" Bilbo's friendship with Balin, "and of
Balin's visit to the Shire long ago" - possibly he is thinking of the
visit throught the intermediary of Bilbo's account of it?
<snip>
> [7]
[...]
> when do you suppose was the right time to retake it (apart from
> after the downfall of Sauron).
My guess is that that was for "Durin VII & Last" who's mentioned in the
family tree of Durin's line, but that is just a feeling - nothing
specific.
<snip>
> [10] I take this as he felt the presence of the balrog coming into
> the chamber, though I'm surprised that Gandalf had not met one
> before - when you consider the amount of time he'd already been
> travelling around Middle Earth by then.
Gandalf had been around in Middle-earth for a couple of thousand years,
while the Balrogs, if there were any other left than the one in Moria,
had probably been hiding for the last 6000 years (since the War of
Wrath). Even if Olórin join the Valinorean army in the War of Wrath (do
we know if he did?) it is not certain that he, as Gandalf, would be
able to recognise the feeling of the Balrog. All in all I find that
part quite believable.
<snip>
> [14] Ok - you can now start discussing Balrogs wings
[...]
I'm in no mood for that discussion ;-)
I'll admit that I imagined Balrogs as winged before I started to read
these groups, though primarily, I think, because it felt more
intimidating that way.
After having read about this discussion, I am now convinced that my
fence is the best place for me (I've taken to do a bit of
'comfortising' on my fence - a nice soft cushion, a small table for my
book and my coffee, shades against sun and rain etc. <g>
> [15] The full version of Gandalfs statement is in my view an
> excellent piece of writing by JRRT,
[...]
Agreed! Not only for the information, but also, IMO, for the poetry of
it.
<snip>
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>
They both savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant
than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things.
Discworld scientists at work (Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites)
the softrat
<ser...@spammage.sheer-insanity.net> wrote:
>Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>> How many different alphabets are there on Earth today? [Major languages that
>> is...]
>
>
>Latin
>Cyrillic
>Arabic
>Greek
>Chinese characters
>Japanese syllabries
>Korean
>Devanagari
>Many other Indian scripts
>Whatever that Amharic one is
>
>I think Thai has a script as well (not sure).
>
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Frisbeetarianism: The belief that when you die, your soul goes
up on the roof and gets stuck.
Troels Forchhammer
<gp.sk...@NOSPAM.talk21.com> enriched us with:
> held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:
>>
>> No personal offence meant ofcourse, but as for the lay-out: in
>> the beginning I thought this [1][2]etc. idea (which I think
>> Troels came up with) quite original and handy, but after a couple
>> of chapter treatments I find the scrolling up and down tiresome.
>> I don't think *I* will use it again in a chapter treatment.
>
> I tried a few formats and this was the one I picked in the end,
> though I'm used to reading science texts in this format. Perhaps
> if I had written fewer notes it would have been easier on the
> mouse (less scrolling).
I have taken to printing out the original chapter introductions -
whatever the format it is usually much easier to work with in that
form. I don't go back and forth between the synopsis and the notes, but
read them in sequence with an occasional reference back to the synopsis
if I can't see immediately where in the narrative a particular note
belongs.
When I first used the notes, they were intended only to provide a way
of linking the discussion points and the chapter synopsis - a way of
noting where in the story a specific discussion point or comment
belongs to, but then I too am used to the use in scientific texts.
Possibly it works better for shorter summaries.
I still think it is better to separate the synopsis and the discussion
points; I find the essayish mix of synopsis and comments/questions
confusing and not very conductive for the kind of discussion we are (or
at least I am) aiming for in the Chapter of the Week project.
gp.skinner
> [The diary of Balin's people:]
> Did Balin's people dare enter the deep places, drowned in water or a
> shadow of fear, or did they find true-silver elsewhere? The passage
> might mean that the mithril they found was wellforged: "/we found
> truesilver/, and later the word /wellforged/ and them something, I have
> it! /mithril/;" which would of course mean that they didn't mine the
> ore themselves.
>
Wellforged does sound like processed metal rather than ore, perhaps they
found a stockpile or storeroom with mithril in a form ready to use.
<snip>
> However, Frodo "thinks of" Bilbo's friendship with Balin, "and of
> Balin's visit to the Shire long ago" - possibly he is thinking of the
> visit throught the intermediary of Bilbo's account of it?
That sounds about right to me, the only other option is that Balin visited
Bilbo at a time when Frodo was also visiting him. So I'd go along with the
'intermediary of Bilbo's account'.
> > [14] Ok - you can now start discussing Balrogs wings
> [...]
> I'm in no mood for that discussion ;-)
I'm pleased, to be honest when I was doing the chapter my first thoughts had
been that the 'wings' issue was all anyone would pick up on - thankfully
that has proved not to be the case. The chapter has a lot more going for it
than to be arguing whether or not the Balrog was a frequent flyer.
Graeme
Troels Forchhammer
Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> enriched us with:
<snip>
> Externally, that moment of recall of the happy, normal Shire works
> so well to make the Moria gloom darker and to highlight Frodo's
> own plight, so far from home.
Well spotted! I hadn't thought of the effect on the reader of this
reference back to the quiet Shire (and I agree that it must refer to
Balin's visit with Gandalf in 2949):
"[...] You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am
very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow
in a wide world after all!"
"Thank goodness!" said Bilbo laughing, and handed him the
tobacco-jar.
Reading your comment above, I suddenly realised how much the memory of
Balin's visit with Gandalf has helped contrasting the gloom and
oppressive darkness that was Moria with the light comfort of Bilbo's
life in the Shire.
<snip>
> I also learned that the images are online at a Russian site: both
> images and commentary are taken from the 1977 "Lord of the Rings"
> calendar -- isn't that a copyright infringement?
Under Danish law it would be, but as I understand it, the copyright
protection in Russia works differently, and it might actually be
permissible in Russia.
By the strange twists of the Danish copyright laws I am permitted to
view the contents on-line, but not to make a permanent copy on my hard-
drive (i.e. - any copy must be saved as a "temporary internet file") -
I suppose that it's meant as a protection against prosecution for
accidental viewing of copyrighted material - saving the stuff manually
is a deliberate act which can be prosecuted.
<snip>
> Also, don't ever get too attached to your staff....
LOL!
When I first read that, I read "staff" in the meaning of "personnel" -
it gave the sentence a very different meaning (I suppose that other
meanings could also be attached to "staff", but let's not go there),
"A wizard's staff has a knob on the end" as we all know ;-)
Michelle J. Haines
Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid says...
>
> I still think it is better to separate the synopsis and the discussion
> points; I find the essayish mix of synopsis and comments/questions
> confusing and not very conductive for the kind of discussion we are (or
> at least I am) aiming for in the Chapter of the Week project.
That's OK, I don't find your style very conducive to discussion,
either. I don't like the constant scrolling up and down.
I think we have to accept that if we're going to have multiple people
doing chapter summaries, that means we're going to have multiple
styles of doing it.
Michelle
Flutist
--
Drift on a river, That flows through my arms
Drift as I'm singing to you
I see you smiling, So peaceful and calm
And holding you, I'm smiling, too
Here in my arms, Safe from all harm
Holding you, I'm smiling, too
-- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99]
gp.skinner
> > points; I find the essayish mix of synopsis and comments/questions
> > confusing and not very conductive for the kind of discussion we are (or
> > at least I am) aiming for in the Chapter of the Week project.
> That's OK, I don't find your style very conducive to discussion,
> either. I don't like the constant scrolling up and down.
> I think we have to accept that if we're going to have multiple people
> doing chapter summaries, that means we're going to have multiple
> styles of doing it.
Perhaps a standard layout should have been selected before it all started
and everybody could have posted in that style - bit late now though!
Graeme
Troels Forchhammer
Michelle J. Haines <mha...@io.nanc.com> enriched us with:
>
<snip>
> I think we have to accept that if we're going to have multiple people
> doing chapter summaries, that means we're going to have multiple
> styles of doing it.
Yes, sorry that I forgot that point (I had intended to say something
along those lines), and thanks for doing it for me ;-)
The important part, I think, will be that people use a format they are
comfortable with - trying to enforce one format would probably be much,
much worse than sorting out something written in different formats.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk
It is useless to meet revenge with revenge: it will heal nothing.
- Frodo Baggins, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Michelle J. Haines
says...
>
> Perhaps a standard layout should have been selected before it all started
> and everybody could have posted in that style - bit late now though!
Or it's better as it is, allowing people to write how they feel
comfortable. The threads don't seem to have dropped off in
relevance, depth of discussion, or length of discussion due to
varying formats.
Henriette
> I tried a few formats and this was the one I picked in the end, though I'm
> used to reading science texts in this format. Perhaps if I had written fewer
> notes it would have been easier on the mouse (less scrolling).
>
That would be a waste of nice notes!
> Perhaps television has influenced modern writers to focus on visuality so
> much.
>
Television, computers...
> I think the second mention of wings in this passage just referrs to the
> shadow like effect.
>
Doubt is gnawing my mind....
Henriette
Henriette
> gp.skinner <gp.sk...@NOSPAM.talk21.com> wrote:
>
> [about footnote formats]
>
> > I tried a few formats and this was the one I picked in the end,
> > though I'm used to reading science texts in this format. Perhaps if I
> > had written fewer notes it would have been easier on the mouse (less
> > scrolling).
>
> back-and-forth.
That would be a great solution.
Henriette
Christopher Kreuzer
And some applications demand mouse-ups...
(You hover your cursor over the highlighted bit and a box of text pops
up)
Henriette
> >
> > On Wed, 19 May 2004 21:14:44 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
> > <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> > >> You are very consistent in writing: the fellowship retreat/leave, etc.
> > >> (plural) Is that grammatically correct? Would singular also be
> > >correct?
> > >
> > >I'd say 'retreated' and 'left', but definitely not 'retreats' and
> > >'leaves'. The fellowship might be a single entity, but it is made up of
> > >many different parts.
> >
> > It's a singular noun though, so it takes the singular case. You'd lose
> > grammar marks if you treated it as a plural. You could get around the
> > problem by referring to "the members of the fellowship" rather than
> > "the fellowship".
Alison, why do I not see your posts directly?
What you say is exactly the same in Dutch, 'the fellowship leave'
would be wrong.
I wonder why there is so much disagreement amongst the native
speakers. Don't you have any written rules or consensus?
Henriette
Christopher Kreuzer
> The important part, I think, will be that people use a format they are
> comfortable with - trying to enforce one format would probably be
> much, much worse than sorting out something written in different
> formats.
Enforcing something on Usenet?? ROTFL!
You'd have to have degrees in social engineering, psychology,
psychiatry, and thought policing, in order to have the glimmerings of a
chance of success.
I too ignore the footnoted comments/questions when reading the synopsis.
The bit I don't like is when the footnotes don't make clear what is
being discussed. At that point you have to refer back to that point in
the synopsis, as well as quote bits from both the synopsis and footnote
when replying.
Ideally, the synopsis and questions would be written in such a way that
they could be read without the footnote numbers in the synopsis text,
but the references are still there for anyone who gets confused.
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Christopher Kreuzer
> In the preceeding chapter Gandalf tells us that "The lodes lead away
> north towards Caradhras, and down to darkness." And there we also
> learn that "since the dwarves fled, no one dares to seek the shafts
> and treasuries down in the deep places: they are drowned in water -
> or in a shadow of fear." Since it apparently was their digging for
> mithril that disturbed the Balrog, I would suppose that the these
> deep shafts, where they were mining the truesilver, were certain to
> be drowned in either water or fear (or both).
"and down to darkness" - is a clear reference to evil under Caradhras.
It would obviously be dark under a mountain, so the darkness is a buried
evil - the Balrog.
Also, that passage always makes me think of the Watcher-in-the-water for
some reason. There was and still is probably a lot more in that water
and in those deep places than just the Balrog. As Gandalf is about to
find out...
Jette Goldie
"Alison" <news....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:8d2qa0hmc2p8lsaso...@4ax.com...
> Grammar is not really taught in British schools any more.
> Consequently, many people think that "the fellowship leave" is
> correct. The more people use it, the more likely people are to think
> that it's an acceptable variation.
Wasn't taught in my day either (1963 - 1974) but we learned
it anyway.
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Pete Gray
news....@ntlworld.com says...
> On 20 May 2004 12:18:54 -0700, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:
>
> >What you say is exactly the same in Dutch, 'the fellowship leave'
> >would be wrong.
> >
> >I wonder why there is so much disagreement amongst the native
> >speakers. Don't you have any written rules or consensus?
>
Actually, quite a lot of grammar is taught in primary schools, at
least in Scotland. Indeed, my daughter has just been doing some
grammar-related homework tonight.
> Consequently, many people think that "the fellowship leave" is
> correct. The more people use it, the more likely people are to think
> that it's an acceptable variation.
>
The more people use it, the more likely it is that it will _be_ an
acceptable variation.
Pete
--
Pete Gray
while ($cat!="home"){$mice=="play";}
Pete Gray
held...@hotmail.com says...
> I wonder why there is so much disagreement amongst the native
> speakers. Don't you have any written rules or consensus?
>
> Henriette
>
Written rules? You mean like some "authority" telling people what
their language is and how it ought to work? No, we don't have anything
like that. It's always seemed strange to me that any state would even
attempt such an ultimately pointless task.
We do have the story of Canute, though.
Christopher Kreuzer
> Book II Chapter V - The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
As was mentioned in the previous thread, Tolkien only began writing the
story at this point again after a long gap of about a year. Do you think
he had this Balrog appearance planned all along? Or did he finally
decide how to approach this chapter after a year's break from writing?
I'd guess he'd need a bit of inspiration to get this chapter written
properly.
> The chapter opens with the fellowship standing beside Balin's tomb.
> Frodo thinks of Bilbo, his friendship with Balin, and the dwarf
> visiting the Shire.
"In that dusty chamber in the mountains it seemed a thousand years ago
and on the other side of the world."
<snip>
> Gandalf then goes on to read what parts of the book are still legible
> (though some pages are missing and much of the text obscured). In
> brief the book starts off with Balin (and his companions) arriving at
> the Dimrill Dale, their fight to clear orcs from the great gate
I've never been clear how many dwarves were in Balin's company. I would
assume there would be a lot, but maybe there really were not very many
orcs around (but there would be later and when the Fellowship were
there). The fact that they took that big hall to dwell in makes me think
there must have been a lot of them, but how do you _live_ in Moria? Put
tents on the floor? Or would there be lots of little side rooms to live
in?
> The book goes on to record "Balin has set up his seat in
> the Chamber of Mazarbul."[4] It also shows they discovered
> truesilver.
There is also a reference to 'Durin's Axe'. Any ideas what this is? And
also something 'helm'. Do these help Balin declare himself Lord of
Moria? Was it not presumptuous of him to do so? Surely he was not the
king of the Longbeards, and the title Lord of Moria should be for Dain
to claim?
> Much of the remaining pages were too damaged to make much
> sense of until Gandalf finds a page written in Elvish script (".Ori's
> hand," said Gimli). Ori had recorded the death of Balin[5] who was
> killed by an orc as he looked into Mirrormere
This bit says that many orcs came up the Silverlode, from the east. Are
these orcs from Mordor? Maybe the Uruks that appear a bit later? Coming
to reinforce the orcs of Moria after Balin invades?
<snip>
> [5] It's a pity that nothing in detail is written about Balin and his
> attempt to retake Moria.
Maybe try this bit from the account of the War of the Dwarves and the
Orcs (in Appendix A):
"...which was long and deadly, and fought for the most part in deep
places beneath the earth."
> As Gandalf
> finished telling them the route they heard ".a great noise: a rolling
> Boom that seemed to come from depths far bellow, and to tremble in
> the stone at their feet." Following the initial noise the great drum
> beat continued
The 'Doom, doom' of the drums is very effective. Reading it out aloud
you can deepen your voice and get an echoing sound just like that of a
drum. I like the description of how "the walls shook" and "as if huge
hands were tuning the very caverns of Moria into a vast drum". The huge
hands bit makes me think of a troll at the very least.
> After a short discourse[8] they draw their weapons - Glamdring shone,
> Sting glinted. Gandalf looks out of the chamber into the passageway
He does more than that! He does some silly "who comes hither to disturb
the rest of Balin Lord of Moria" bit. What was that all about?
> Aragorn kills the orc;
"There was a flash like flame and the helm burst asunder. The orc fell
with cloven head. His followers fled howling..."
Anduril is living up to its name of Flame of the West!
> follow soon. The fellowship leave Gandalf and move down the stairs in
> darkness, they can hear Gandalf's voice from above, then a bright
> light flares above them and the drums go crazy before stopping.
Why do the drums stop?
> Gandalf comes running down and they continue going straight and
> descending a few flights stairs as they go, the drums resume. After
> an hour Gandalf stops
I always miss the fact that there is a long time between the Chamber of
Mazarbul and the Bridge. They still have distance to travel, and imagine
how scared they will be the whole time...
<snip>
> Legolas who was readying an arrow to shoot across at the orcs sees two
> trolls bearing slabs of stone to bridge the fire, the orcs seemed
> afraid of something and opened a path at first all he sees is ". a
> great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape
> maybe," when it was at the edge of the fissure of fire the light
> faded. The flames increased as the creature jumps across the fissure
> - it carried a blade "like a stabbing tongue of fire" in its right
> hand, and a whip in its left.
What is it with Balrogs and whips? It also has a 'mane'. Is this meant
to be like a lion/horse's mane? And it has flames coming from its
nostrils. Scary.
<snip>
At the moment of confrontation: "a dead silence fell". This is a
noticable contrast to the previous noise and clamour.
> Gandalf tells the Balrog that he can not pass, as he is a servant of
> the secret fire and wielder of the flame of Anor.[15]
Just to get it clear: what do Secret Fire, flame of Anor, dark fire,
flame of Udun, and Shadow, all mean?
> The Balrog does not say anything
<snip>
> but its fire in it seemed to die and the darkness
> increased as it stepped onto the bridge drawing itself up to its full
> height, we are told Gandalf looks tiny in comparison. The Balrog's
> flaming sword swings at Gandalf who blocks the blow with his sword
> resulting in the Balrog falling back its sword broken. The Balrog
> jumps onto the bridge with its whip ready.
Note the stacatto paragraph structures. Only a single paragraph for each
of the sword blows. An interesting way to show a battle on the page.
<snip>
> Then Gandalf raises his staff, and shouts as he strikes the bridge at
> his feet. His staff is broken and white flames spring up. At the
> Balrog's feet the bridge cracks at the stone falls into the chasm
> below leaving the half where Gandalf, Aragorn, and Boromir stood
> remaining.
>
> As it fell the Balrog cried out, and it vanished into the chasm, yet
> as it fell its whip lashed out and wraps around Gandalf's knees
> pulling him to the edge of the broken bridge, he staggers then falls
> into the chasm crying "fly, you fools!"[16]
> [16] I don't know about you, but the first time I read this the only
> thing that went through my mind was "you can't do that to Gandalf!"
I've always been interested in how many people _really_ thought Gandalf
was dead? I don't remember my exact thoughts, but I guess I always
thought that without a body there might be hope. Gandalf is a powerful
Wizard after all.
And at what point do people begin to suspect that Gandalf might not be
dead? I would have said the bit on Amon Hen, but I have to confess that
that scene does not become clear until the second/third/nth reading.
When Boromir dies, I think _that_ was when I thought Gandalf might
_really_ be dead.
And about your comment on whether Gandalf was prepared to sacrifice
himself, note that both Aragorn and Boromir appear ready to do so as
well. Who then would have led the company?
> After the fall of Gandalf and the Balrog, the fire went out
Another very effective moment.
> the
> company stood in shock until Aragorn urged them on saying that he
> would lead them from the mines. Frodo and Sam wept[17] as they
> followed Aragorn; in the background the beat of the drums could be
> still heard.
>
> They left the mines with Aragorn killing the Orc captain who was
> guarding the doorway, the remaining orc guard fled from him. It was
> not until they were out of range from orc arrows and they stood in
> the Dimrill Dale.
And we are told that it was "but one hour after noon" and that "the Sun
was shining". A very effective contrast to the darkness of Moria and
Gandalf's fall.
> When they looked back black smoke came from the mountain
What is this black smoke?
> drums could
> still be heard in the distance, slowly fading as the company stood in
> grief.
> [crying] Probably some of the others did too but its not mentioned,
> Pippin has always struck me as the one who would likely have been in
> floods of tears by this point.
Especially as he and Gandalf have a 'rapport' now! He has seen a kindly
side to Gandalf, as well as the gruff and angry Wizard. (The bit where
Gandalf lets Pippin go to sleep instead of keeping watch).
Troels Forchhammer
<gp.sk...@NOSPAM.talk21.com> enriched us with:
>>
<snip>
> Wellforged does sound like processed metal rather than ore,
> perhaps they found a stockpile or storeroom with mithril in a form
> ready to use.
Precisely.
The question is, IMO, whether "wellforged" referred to the mithril when
they found it, to what they made with it or to something different
entirely, though the last possibility is, IMO, very unlikely.
<snip>
> I'm pleased, to be honest when I was doing the chapter my first
> thoughts had been that the 'wings' issue was all anyone would pick
> up on - thankfully that has proved not to be the case.
I think most people - the regulars in particular - have already seen
all the arguments, whether they were around at the time of the Great
War or not (Conrad's essays give an, IMO, excellent summary of all
sides). Most responses are of the form of "this is what I think, and
I'm not interested in discussing it" ;-)
> The chapter has a lot more going for it than to be arguing whether
> or not the Balrog was a frequent flyer.
Gold or Emerald card?
As I've said elsewhere, the way Tolkien builds up the tension from the
moment the Watcher in the Water slammed and blocked the doors behind
the company and until Gandalf foolishly flies with the 'Rog is ...
<insert sufficiently strong expression of admiration for artistic
ability>.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>
"It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent whatsoever," he
said. "Have you thought of going into teaching?"
- (Terry Pratchett, Mort)
Troels Forchhammer
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
> Enforcing something on Usenet?? ROTFL!
I did say "trying to" ;-)
You are of course right, though I suspect that if the Chapter of the
Week project had specified a particular format, it would have been
followed by almost all, though it would doubtlessly have meant that
there would have been fewer volunteers.
> Ideally, the synopsis and questions would be written in such a way
> that they could be read without the footnote numbers
I agree. I'll try to remember that when I sign up for my next chapter.
BTW - did you get my mail re. the history project?
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought
which they avoid.
- Soren Kierkegaard
Christopher Kreuzer
> BTW - did you get my mail re. the history project?
No. Try again?
Shanahan
> <ser...@spammage.sheer-insanity.net> declared:
>> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>>
>> But the mixture of runes (alphabets) is surprising. It must
>> have been very confusing having to learn these different
>> alphabets in ME. How many different alphabets are there on
>> Earth today? [Major languages that is...]
>> Christopher
>
> This is from the top of my head:
> Latin
> Cyrillic
> Arabic
> Greek
> Chinese characters
> Japanese syllabries
I think Japanese has two modes of writing, one alphabetical and one
ideographic? Kanji, one is called.
- Ciaran S.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
----
The State is the altar of political freedom and, like the
religious altar, it is maintained for the purpose of human
sacrifice. - e.g.
Shanahan
>> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>> The important part, I think, will be that people use a format
>> they are comfortable with - trying to enforce one format would
>> probably be much, much worse than sorting out something
>> written in different formats.
>
> Enforcing something on Usenet?? ROTFL!
> You'd have to have degrees in social engineering, psychology,
> psychiatry, and thought policing, in order to have the
> glimmerings of a chance of success.
> I too ignore the footnoted comments/questions when reading the
> synopsis. The bit I don't like is when the footnotes don't make
> clear what is being discussed. At that point you have to refer
> back to that point in the synopsis, as well as quote bits from
> both the synopsis and footnote when replying.
BTW, anyone ever noticed that CJRT does an admirable job in this
regard? I have no trouble ignoring the footnotes during a
read-through of the text, and then reading them as a group when I
reach the end.
- Ciaran S.
------------------------------------------------------------
If I can't dance, it's not my revolution.
- e.g.
TeaLady (Mari C.)
>
> But the mixture of runes (alphabets) is surprising. It must
> have been very confusing having to learn these different
> alphabets in ME. How many different alphabets are there on
> Earth today? [Major languages that is...]
>
IIRC, the writings were in several "hands", meaning several
different dwarfs added to the book at various points. Could be
each just chose to use the alphabet he was most learned in. An
odd concept, to be sure, for those accustomed to just one
alphabet for many languages, but not impossible.
--
mc
TeaLady / mari conroy
Igenlode
> In article <Xns94EFB5E78E...@62.243.74.163>,
> Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid says...
> >
> > I still think it is better to separate the synopsis and the discussion
> > points; I find the essayish mix of synopsis and comments/questions
> > confusing and not very conductive for the kind of discussion we are (or
> > at least I am) aiming for in the Chapter of the Week project.
>
> That's OK, I don't find your style very conducive to discussion,
> either. I don't like the constant scrolling up and down.
>
That tends to be the problem with footnotes[1]; they have their uses in
avoiding long-winded interpolations within a paragraph, but my
experience is that the paradigm to adopt on Usenet is that of the
page-end footnote, rather than the chapter-end footnote. You really
want the note itself to be visible on the same section of screen as the
marker to which it refers. In practice, this seems to work best by
having the footnote as a following paragraph.
[1] When used for anything other than one-line jokes at the end of a
short post, at least.
That said, I'm all in favour of the essay-type discussion in any case.
It is a trifle difficult to follow up to footnotes without editing them
back together with the text to which they refer (how can one comment on
[8] None of them said anything close to what my reaction would have been in
that situation.
without including an indication of the situation to which this alludes?)
But what kind of discussion *are* we aiming for? :-)
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
* The old that is strong does not wither *
Dirk Thierbach
>> Alison wrote:
> Alison, why do I not see your posts directly?
Because it looks like you use Google, and Alison has a
X-No-Archive: yes
header in her posts. This means her posts won't be archieved on Google
(which is probably what she wants), so you cannot read them there.
- Dirk
Dirk Thierbach
> gp.skinner <gp.sk...@NOSPAM.talk21.com> wrote:
> There is also a reference to 'Durin's Axe'. Any ideas what this is?
Probably one of the references to "other unwritten stories" Tolkien
comes up with from time to time.
> He does more than that! He does some silly "who comes hither to disturb
> the rest of Balin Lord of Moria" bit. What was that all about?
I read this as a bluff, an attempt to scare or confuse the enemy.
> What is it with Balrogs and whips?
I think the Balrog owes something to the demons, devils and other
creatures of Hell in the Christian tradition. In this tradition, the
creatures who torment the souls in Hell have often whips.
> Just to get it clear: what do Secret Fire, flame of Anor, dark fire,
> flame of Udun, and Shadow, all mean?
Udun is more or less equivalent to Hell. So Flame of Udun means
something like "fire-creature from Hell". Gandalf contrasts this
type of "dark" fire against his own "fiery" nature, as servant
of the Light (= Anor, the Sun). (And don't forget that Gandalf has
Narya, the Ring of Fire, as well.)
Or at least something similar in this general direction.
> Note the stacatto paragraph structures. Only a single paragraph for
> each of the sword blows. An interesting way to show a battle on the
> page.
Nice. I didn't notice that.
>> When they looked back black smoke came from the mountain
> What is this black smoke?
Smoke from the fire in the lower levels, probably.
- Dirk
Odysseus
>
> Grammar is not really taught in British schools any more.
> correct. The more people use it, the more likely people are to think
> that it's an acceptable variation.
>
plural forms are equally acceptable to go with collective nouns, and
have been for a long time.
See <http://alt-usage-english.org/groupnames.html>.
So while "The Fellowship leaves Moria" is probably better than "The
Fellowship leave Moria", because the action was performed by all of
its (surviving) members as a unit, neither form is incorrect.
Conversely I would prefer "The Fellowship disagree about where to go
next" to "The Fellowship disagrees ...", because disagreement implies
that each member has his own position and the plural form emphasizes
this multiplicity of views. Again, though, either form is acceptable
in many dialects; as the FAQ above indicates the plural is more
likely to be heard in the UK than in the USA.
--
Odysseus
Taemon
> Written rules? You mean like some "authority" telling
> people what their language is and how it ought to work?
I want rules so I can show off my cool new knowledge of the
English language and look down on those who err. Aaaahahahahahaa!
T.
Taemon
> I've always been interested in how many people _really_
> thought Gandalf was dead?
Not me. It didn't seem like that kind of story. I was eleven or
twelve at that kind of story. I was of course delighted when he
came back, but also a bit disappointed. Deus ex machina indeed.
T.
the softrat
>I wonder why there is so much disagreement amongst the native
>speakers. Don't you have any written rules or consensus?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Yes, they were written in 1757 by a Dutchman.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Mind Like A Steel Trap - Rusty And Illegal In 37 States.
the softrat
<pog...@redsuspenders.com> wrote:
>
>I think Japanese has two modes of writing, one alphabetical and one
>ideographic? Kanji, one is called.
>
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend." - U.S.
Army training notice
Christopher Kreuzer
Which seems a bit silly. If Google were serious about being a posting
service as well as an archiving service, then they could let the posts
appear for a certain number of days and then quietly expire.
Christopher Kreuzer
I should have said "just hit reply and ignore demunging instructions".
Christopher Kreuzer
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> Just to get it clear: what do Secret Fire, flame of Anor, dark fire,
>> flame of Udun, and Shadow, all mean?
>
> Udun is more or less equivalent to Hell. So Flame of Udun means
> something like "fire-creature from Hell".
Though the naming of part of Mordor as Udun always confused me, until I
realised that both meanings descend from the 'Hell' meaning, and there
is no direct link between Udun (Balrog) and Udun (Mordor).
I'd have thought "flame of Utumno" would have been a better description.
> Gandalf contrasts this
> type of "dark" fire against his own "fiery" nature, as servant
> of the Light (= Anor, the Sun). (And don't forget that Gandalf has
> Narya, the Ring of Fire, as well.)
What do you think Gandalf's: "Go back to the Shadow!" means?
Also, what about the "servant of the Secret Fire" bit. Could that be a
reference to the Flame Imperishable or to Narya? I'd have thought that
it would not be either of these, so what _is_ it a reference to?
And come to think of it, does Gandalf _really_ mean that he wields the
flame of Anor, or is he just bluffing because he knows Morgoth's
servants fear the Sun?
Troels Forchhammer
>
>> BTW - did you get my mail re. the history project?
>
> No. Try again?
I have been offered a company-paid ADSL connection, and have accepted,
but things have gone a bit wrong. My usual internet connection is now
cancelled, but the new one has not yet been set up, and I'm dialling up
using my cell phone (9600 bps). I will try again when I'm back on-line,
and know my new e-mail address.
Any e-mail to troelsfo(a)yahoo.dk will, however, reach me (eventually).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not sure about the former.
- Albert Einstein
Troels Forchhammer
Igenlode <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> enriched us with:
>
[Identifying / Recognising the Balrog]
> Personally, I was quite surprised when Gimli was able to identify a
> Balrog on sight as "Durin's Bane!"
Did he? Or did he infer it (beyond all doubt) from Legolas'
identification?
Not that I think it really matters - when the Balrog appears we hear how
"a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it." There can't
have been many creatures around with that kind of terror and power (none
of them could have mistaken it for a Nazgūl, who they'd heard described
in details by the Hobbits). As such there could be no doubt possible in
Gimli's mind that he stood before "Durin's Bane" even though he had no
clue about what Durin's Bane looked like; the feeling of power, and the
terror that went before it was enough.
> I suppose I'd always assumed that nobody knew what Durin's Bane
> actually was, because none of those who came up against it survived.
> But there probably were people who glimpsed it and yet escaped.
It is possible that some escaped, though Gandalf certainly didn't expect
to find a Balrog in Moria (which means that either no one had ever
described Durin's Bane to anyone who would recognise it for a Balrog, or
no one had survived who could describe it). It is, I think, more likely
that those who did survive never saw the Balrog clearly enough to
describe it, though they could well have described the shadow and the
feeling of power and terror (for Gimli to recognise?)
> (Come to that, I suppose one could wonder how Legolas came to be
> familiar with the appearance of a Balrog... I just took it for granted
> that Elves seemed to be much more knowledgeable about the supernatural
> and the Elder Days in general than anyone else, rather than assuming
> that he'd personally met one before!)
I dare say - Legolas was out of a line of Sindarin nobility who fled from
Beleriand at the end of the First Age, which gives a direct tie to Elves
who might have met a Balrog. And of course the whole history of the First
Age was kept alive in story, "/ann-thennath/" and other forms - and I
doubt that the Sylvan Elves in Northern Mirkwood (ruled by Sindarin
Princes) were ignorant of Balrogs.
--
Troels Forchhammer
"He deserves death."
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some
that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager
to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all
ends."
- Tolkien in The Fellowship of the Ring
Jim Deutch
>
>Alison, why do I not see your posts directly?
Alison is including "X-No-Archive: yes" in her headers to prevent
google from archiving her posts. You are reading on google, therefore
you don't see her posts.
Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?
Mark Landin
<ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 May 2004 22:35:39 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
><spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Tolkien appeared to have wanted the pages blood-stained, but the cost of
>>colour printing was too much. He did seem to be quite aggrieved:
>>
>>"Without them the opening of Book Two, ch. 5 (which was meant to have
>>the facsimilies and a transcript alongside) is defective, and the Runes
>>of the Appendix unnecessary."
>
>A good point -- and he was right about the blood; it shows up well on
>the images and is quite ghastly and gruesome. Makes the Chamber of
>Mazarbul seem like a very fearful place indeed.
>
>I wonder, though: with so many grand halls, why did Balin set up his
>throne in "the library"?
1. More easily defended by a relatively small group of Dwarves?
2. Balin was a humble dwarf?
3. The "grander halls" had not yet been discovered / explored /
renovated yet?
Jette Goldie
"Mark Landin" <mark....@tdwilliamson.com> wrote in message
news:t8psa05lrahtehqfo...@4ax.com...
A lot easier to heat than the grand halls?
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Öjevind Lång
news:40a8...@212.67.96.135...
> Book II Chapter V - The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
[snip]
> [6] I had to include the quotes 'drums' & 'they're coming', it can still
> send a shiver down my spine when I read this passage, its probably
something
> to do with having an overactive imagination.
I agree. And don't forget the statement a bit previously: "We cannot get
out. We cannot get out. They have taken the bridge and second hall". Talk
about terror!
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
news:2c9e2992.0405...@posting.google.com...
> "gp.skinner" <gp.sk...@NOSPAM.talk21.com> wrote in message
news:<40a8...@212.67.96.135>...
> > Book II Chapter V - The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
>
> <snip>
>
a
> > damaged (slashed, stabbed, charred, basically well and truly mangled)
> > book.
>
> There should be a law against treating books like that. :-)
I have a friend who treats books like that. I try to keep him away from my
bookshelves.
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
> > > Gandalf halts them at the edge of the bridge and tells Gimli to lead
the
> > > way, with Pippin and Merry to follow him. Arrows continued to fall,
one
> > > striking Frodo (with no effect), another ending up through Gandalf's
> hat.
> > > Frodo could see hundreds of orcs beyond the fire; the drums grow
louder.
> > Am I the only one to get a slight smile from Gandalfs newly addorned
> > hat?
>
> No, I normally smile at that point, its a slight comic moment(?) in the
> midst of all the darkness.
The odd selectivity shown by Orkish archers is indeed a mystery. I made a
post about it in AFT a few years ago. I repost it here:
Orkish Marksmen
(Published in AFT 22/7/1999 - "7/22/1199")
Since my work is proceeding satisfactorily, I'll indulge myself a bit by
writing a longer post about a textual matter that caught my attention on my
recent rereading of "The Fellowship of the Ring". All illuminating comments
are most welcome.
In the chapter "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm", the Orcs shoot arrows at the
Fellowship over the chasm. The text says:
Arrows fell among them. One struck Frodo and sprang back. Another pierced
Gandalf's hat and stuck there like a black feather.
Later on, in the chapter "The Great River", the Fellowship are again fired
at by Orkish archers, this time when they are in their boats on the Anduin.
The description:
At that moment there was a twang of bowstrings: several arrows whistled over
them, and some fell among them. One smote Frodo between the shoulders and he
lurched forward with a cry, letting go his paddle: but the arrow fell back,
foiled by his hidden coat of mail. Another passed through Aragorn's hood;
and a third stood fast in the gunwale of the second boat, close by Merry's
hand.
When we compare these two passages, several conundrums become manifest. Let
us, to begin with, acknowledge that the Orcs obviously are excellent
archers. They aim for the same targets both times, and hit them too. But
after that, the plot thickens.
1. The Orcs try to kill Frodo both times, and they hit him straight on but
are foiled by his mithril coat. How did they know that Frodo was the most
important target in the group?
2. They are not really interested in killing anybody else in the group.
Since they managed to hit Frodo square on both times, they could obviusly
have hit everybody else too. Note that the Orcs fired several arrows on both
occasions, but did not hit anyone except him - with one exception that I'm
coming to. The arrow that hit "the gunwale of the second boat, close to
Merry's hand" is obviously some kind of camouflage intended to lull all
suspicions. Only a master marksman could hit the gunwale of that boat (a
small, moving target) instead of somewhere in the boat where somebody might
get hurt - these were crack troops! Who gave them the instructions not to
hurt anybody except Frodo - or were they acting on their own?
3. On the first occasion, an arrow "pierced Gandalf's hat and stuck there
like a black feather." (It sounds like an old Scrooge McDuck adventure;
arrow-shooting natives and bandits with guns loved shooting at his hat too.)
On the second occasion, an arrow "passed through Aragorn's hood" - another
clean hit. The puzzle is why the Orcs are so keen to hit the headgear of
whoever is in charge of the group. Does it satisfy some kind of Orkish
superstition? Do they think that an arrow through the leader's headgear will
be enough to vanquish the whole group? Or are they simply collecting
"coups", like the ancient Plains Indians?
4. How could the Orcs know that the Fellowship was led by Gandalf on the
first occasion and by Aragorn on the second? The fact that those fantastic
marksmen aimed for their headgear, while ignoring that of everybody else,
shows that they possessed some kind of information about it. Did Gollum tip
them off about it? And if so, why didn't they just try to kill the person in
charge of the Fellowship?
5. Why did the Orcs try (in an admittedly clumsy way; they were less adept
at psychology than at archery) to make the Fellowship believe that they
wanted to kill them all, when they obviously took great care not to hurt
anybody except Frodo? Note that when the Balrog turns up in the first
incident, they become silent and dismayed. They had not counted on this!
Their intention was never to hurt Gandalf!
These are deep, mysterious questions.
Öjevind
Christopher Kreuzer
> The odd selectivity shown by Orkish archers is indeed a mystery. I
> made a post about it in AFT a few years ago. I repost it here:
>
> Orkish Marksmen
>
> (Published in AFT 22/7/1999 - "7/22/1199")
<snip funny article>
Have you ever considered adding the following events to your analysis?
1) The orcs killing Boromir with arrows.
2) The orcs failing to kill Beren with arrows.
3) And perhaps most relevant of all, the orc arrow that hits Gollum in
Mordor, right in the back, and springs back from a coat of mail....
:-)
TeaLady (Mari C.)
>
> Also, what about the "servant of the Secret Fire" bit. Could
> that be a reference to the Flame Imperishable or to Narya?
> I'd have thought that it would not be either of these, so
> what _is_ it a reference to?
>
Until I read the Sil, I first thought it was a reference to
Narya. Then I began to think maybe it was a reference to the
Flame Imperishable, which I took to mean Eru, then maybe to
the light of the 2 trees, which lives on in the Silmarils. I
still haven't made up my mind. There isn't enough evidence
pointing to what exactly Tolkien meant, although the Flame
Imperishable would be the most logical assumption, based on
Tolkien's religious background.
Gandalf serves Eru, ultimately.