Did Saruman have his own ring???
William Neumann
himself as "Saruman the ring maker" or something like that and I think
Tolkien described him as having a sparkling ring on his finger. He had been
seriously researching the history of the one ring in hopes of uncovering its
final resting place. Surely he would have uncovered some lore concerning
ring forging. Weren't the minor rings forged by an elf duped by Sauron?
Couldn't Saruman have made his own? What does everybody else think???
cybert
Of the Istari, Saruman delved the deepest into ringlore. In fact, it was
his research into the Rings of Power that led him into evil, and he was
working to make a ring of power of his own. However, although he is
described by Gandalf as wearing a ring, it was not one of "the" rings, nor
did it appear to appear to have any special powers. He hadn't figured out
enough about ringmaking yet.
The Rings were forged in the Second Age by the Elven-smiths of Eregion,
mainly Celebrimbor, although Sauron guided all behind the scenes and made
the One Ring himself.
Gregg
Osse
wrote:
If he had a special ring it sure didn't work against the ents or
Gandalf too well.....maybe it came free like a crackerjack prize
in the longbottom leaf he bought from the shire!
William Neumann
Osse wrote in message <35b0e2f0...@news.feist.com>...
> Gandalf too well.....maybe it came free like a crackerjack prize
> in the longbottom leaf he bought from the shire!
>
>
CFoster885
>his research into the Rings of Power that led him into evil, and he was
>working to make a ring of power of his own. However, although he is
>described by Gandalf as wearing a ring, it was not one of "the" rings, nor
>did it appear to appear to have any special powers. He hadn't figured out
>enough about ringmaking yet.
Are you sure? Is there a cite to back this up. I seriously doubt after all
those years he wore one just of looks! I could be wrong but I would think his
ring would have some "minor" powers.
--
Casey Foster
Quote of the Week- (finnaly changed!!)
"God is dead. -Nietzsche
Nietzsche is dead. -God"
-The Tombs Restaurant Bathroom Wall. Washington, D.C.
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Learn how at: http://www.cauce.org/
solomon
>On Sat, 18 Jul 1998 08:00:36 -0500, "cybert" <who...@whozit.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Of the Istari, Saruman delved the deepest into ringlore. In fact, it was
>>his research into the Rings of Power that led him into evil, and he was
>>working to make a ring of power of his own. However, although he is
>>described by Gandalf as wearing a ring, it was not one of "the" rings, nor
>>did it appear to appear to have any special powers. He hadn't figured out
>>enough about ringmaking yet.
>>
How do you know he hadn't figured out enough yet? He certainly had
more than enough time to do so. The minor rings were exactly that,
minor. They were dabblings in the craft. The Gwaith-i-Mirdain could
have crafted them in their sleep at the peak of their skill. We don't
know if the ring he wore was "magic" or not, but if Saruman himself
claimed so, then it most likely was, since even at this time, he had
retained most of his wisdom and power. As for appearing to have
powers, did any of the rings, save the One, appear to have powers?
No. So then, why should a minor ring?
Also, it was not his research into RingLore that led him into evil.
It was his interest in the workings of the enemy, and even then he
could have been redeemed, had he not used the palantir without the
right to do so.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'll be the pirate if you'll be the loot;
I'll jump out a plane if you'll be my
parachute.
You better catch me or I'll kill you.
- Mary Timony, "I'll get you, I mean it"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bruce Labbate
br...@cc.gatech.edu
UIN: 2406085
Nick(IRC/Usenet): Solomon
Durin S. Day
William Neumann wrote:
!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~!!
I believe that Saruman did make a Ring and it was of little use.
The rings were made by stupid elves tricked by Sauron. Those Noldor sure weren't
that smart.
Durin S. Day
the S. is for Soccer
!_daßurrð
-|> I remember when he trapped Gandalf at the top of the Orthanc he referred
-|> to himself as "Saruman the ring maker" or something like that and I think
-|> Tolkien described him as having a sparkling ring on his finger. He had
-|> been seriously researching the history of the one ring in hopes of uncovering
-|> its final resting place. Surely he would have uncovered some lore concerning
-|> ring forging. Weren't the minor rings forged by an elf duped by Sauron?
-|> Couldn't Saruman have made his own? What does everybody else think???
-|>
-|>
Celebrimbor made the 3 (elf rings), and he wasnt "duped" into making them,
they were/are untainted, still they are lesser than the one and have no
resistance to it. The elves were not duped, but betrayed by Sauron, who
gave them the knowledge to make the greater rings, so that he could inturn
control them.
As for Saruman, he would certainly be capable of making a lesser ring, good
for mischief no doubt. The ring would likely reflect the twisted spirit of
its maker and betray the wearer, much the way the one ring has been known to
do from time to time.
***** !_daßur...@mindspring.com *****
***** *****
***** babel on! fiv >; ş *****
solomon
<duri...@spartanburg.net> wrote:
>
>
>William Neumann wrote:
>
>> I remember when he trapped Gandalf at the top of the Orthanc he referred to
>> himself as "Saruman the ring maker" or something like that and I think
>> Tolkien described him as having a sparkling ring on his finger. He had been
>> seriously researching the history of the one ring in hopes of uncovering its
>> final resting place. Surely he would have uncovered some lore concerning
>> ring forging. Weren't the minor rings forged by an elf duped by Sauron?
>> Couldn't Saruman have made his own? What does everybody else think???
>
> !!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~!!
>
>I believe that Saruman did make a Ring and it was of little use.
>
>The rings were made by stupid elves tricked by Sauron. Those Noldor sure weren't
>that smart.
Please tell me that's sarcasm.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, you know, there it was, right on the
table, or rather, under the table, because
the table was on top of it.
- Aleister Crowley, "Diary of a Drug Fiend"
cybert
continue to act like I don't know what I'm talking about (sigh). "It wasn't
his research into ringlore that led him (Saruman) into evil, it was his
interest in the workings of the Enemy." Does that utterly rule out his
research into ringlore playing a part? Of course not. The research was a
huge part of his "interest in the workings of the Enemy."
As to "how do you know he hadn't figured out enough yet," try reading
Tolkien's letter at the beginning of the hardcover edition of LOTR.
Tolkien, suggesting an alternative scenario in which Aragorn or Boromir or
someone else among the wise & powerful seized the ring and used it again
Sauron, says that "in the chaos and confusion of the times" Saruman would
have found the missing links of his own research into ringlore and would
have "fashioned a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the
self-styled ruler of Middle Earth."
But who needs this? We know Saruman didn't know enough because he hadn't
made a Great Ring. Don't you think if he had such knowledge he would have
forged a Great Ring already? These were the nuclear weapons of the Third
Age after all.
Gregg
cybert
>Are you sure? Is there a cite to back this up. I seriously doubt after
all
>those years he wore one just of looks! I could be wrong but I would think
his
>ring would have some "minor" powers.
This is just a guess on my part. However, there is nothing said anywhere in
the books about Saruman's ring having any power--all the talk is about his
voice. I suppose it could have had power, perhaps somewhat less power than
Gandalf's staff.
Gregg
Megan Westerfield
> I remember when he trapped Gandalf at the top of the Orthanc he referred to
> himself as "Saruman the ring maker" or something like that and I think
> Tolkien described him as having a sparkling ring on his finger. He had been
> seriously researching the history of the one ring in hopes of uncovering its
> final resting place. Surely he would have uncovered some lore concerning
> ring forging. Weren't the minor rings forged by an elf duped by Sauron?
> Couldn't Saruman have made his own? What does everybody else think???
I think that Sauron probably tricked Saruman. I think that Sauron
may have "taught" Saruman how to forge a ring of power but foiled
the power of Saruman's ring. Or perhaps he had delusions of
grandeur.
*Rabbyt the Elf-Queen
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essential est invisible pour
les yeux." --the Fox in _The_Little_Prince
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Megan Westerfield
> in the longbottom leaf he bought from the shire!
*laugh out freaking loud* I loved that!
Megan Westerfield
were still a young race when such things happened. They wanted to
be craftsmen, want powerful, beautiful things. Intelligence is
irrelevant--the heart overruled the mind.
Durin S. Day
!_daßurrð wrote:
>
>
> Celebrimbor made the 3 (elf rings), and he wasnt "duped" into making them,
> they were/are untainted, still they are lesser than the one and have no
> resistance to it. The elves were not duped, but betrayed by Sauron, who
> gave them the knowledge to make the greater rings, so that he could inturn
> control them.
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'll have to disagree again. The Noldor were 'duped'. They were, as the word means, easily deceived.
Sauron deceived the Noldor into making the vehicle that would, Sauron hoped, be their doom. Celebrimbor
did not have the knowledge to make the rings he did, without the knowledge of Sauron. Sauron may not
have touched them or helped make the Three, but his erudition provided their foundation.
You say that the Noldor were betrayed by Sauron. That means that they had trust in Sauron. Sauron as you
say betrayed them. Thus they were deceived. I.E. duped.
Dumb ole Noldor were always getting duped by Sauron or Melkor.
Durin S. Day
the S. stands for spadix
solomon
wrote:
>As to "how do you know he hadn't figured out enough yet," try reading
>Tolkien's letter at the beginning of the hardcover edition of LOTR.
>Tolkien, suggesting an alternative scenario in which Aragorn or Boromir or
>someone else among the wise & powerful seized the ring and used it again
>Sauron, says that "in the chaos and confusion of the times" Saruman would
>have found the missing links of his own research into ringlore and would
>have "fashioned a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the
>self-styled ruler of Middle Earth."
>
>But who needs this? We know Saruman didn't know enough because he hadn't
>made a Great Ring. Don't you think if he had such knowledge he would have
>forged a Great Ring already? These were the nuclear weapons of the Third
>Age after all.
We, or at least I, wasn't talking about a "Great Ring." Simply a
minor ring.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I remembered that I loved her passionately;
at the same time she happened not to exist.
Megan Westerfield
That's what I said!!! They weren't stupid for wanting knowledge, and they
really didn't know any better. Give them a break.
solomon
<west...@mc.edu> wrote:
>*Rabbyt the Elf-Queen
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essential est invisible pour
> les yeux." --the Fox in _The_Little_Prince
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I love that line! :)
Megan Westerfield
> On Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:04:55 -0500, Megan Westerfield
> <west...@mc.edu> wrote:
> >*Rabbyt the Elf-Queen
> I love that line! :)
thanks....:)
*Rabbyt the Elf-Queen
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour
Durin S. Day
Megan Westerfield wrote:
> It's not that the Noldor weren't smart--they were tricked. They
> were still a young race when such things happened. They wanted to
> be craftsmen, want powerful, beautiful things. Intelligence is
> irrelevant--the heart overruled the mind.
>
> *Rabbyt the Elf-Queen
Oh, I disagree, durn, it seems that's all I do. But I don't believe that the
Noldor were a young race. This was some time in the Second Age. During the First
Age fighting Morgoth surely matured them.
Dear Rabbyt, this is a pet peeve of mine; the explaining away of a person or
groups fault/s instead of standing up and accepting the blame. They were ruled by
the heart, so they should be excused. I'm not saying that is what you mean by your
statements. But I see that used as an excuse all the time. The Noldor, in my
opinion, and boy I gots lots of em, were greedy. They also never seemed to take
responsibility for their actions. Instead, if things got too bad they packed up
and left Middle-earth. Talk about letting others fight your battles for you!
Well, I'm off on elf bashing again. I'll stop here.
Durin S. Day
the S stands for elf basher, in some language, I'm sure.
Durin S. Day
solomon wrote:
> Please tell me that's sarcasm.
Yes and No. I phrased it in a sarcastic tone, but the essence of the statement is
very true.
Durin S. Day
The S. stands for starting-trouble
William Neumann
this thread now...
About the Noldor being "duped"... I feel they were. Would they have
created the rings had they known what a terrible liability they would be in
the future? Sauron insidiously planned the whole spiel, and the Noldor,
fortunately (I say fortunate because we got a whole slew of great books out
of it), fell into his "trap".
Durin S. Day
William Neumann wrote:
Well said.
I don't believe that the Noldor would have gone forward if they knew.
Durin
silr...@hotmail.com
"cybert" <who...@whozit.com> wrote:
> As to "how do you know he hadn't figured out enough yet," try reading
> Tolkien's letter at the beginning of the hardcover edition of LOTR.
>
> But who needs this? We know Saruman didn't know enough because he hadn't
> made a Great Ring. Don't you think if he had such knowledge he would have
> forged a Great Ring already? These were the nuclear weapons of the Third
> Age after all.
I'm sure he was trying to, maybe working on a prototype...perhaps one that
was weak and rough he couldn't use it on anyone but Wormtongue & his other
minions. (see the crackpot theory about Grima on the "Tolkien Sarcasm Page.")
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O'Neill Quigley
In the confrontation in Orthanc, immediately prior to Gandalf's
imprisonment there, Saruman reveals himself to Gandalf thus:
"Behold I am no longer Saruman the White...I am Saruman Ring Maker, Saruman
of many colours!"
Or words to that effect.
Would you believe when I wanted to check this quote I found my copy of LOTR
gone. (that's just a little bit of Irish word-play for you - no flames
please, I am qualified to issue Irish humour) Probably just spirited
away.... =(
Anyway it seems that ol' White Hand had a go at the Enemy's Art. Originally
he delved into this body of arcane lore in order to find ways of overcoming
the Enemy (AKA Sauron). In the Hobbit Gandalf confirms that it was largely
due to Saruman's help that Sauron was driven from Mirkwood and Dol Guldur.
I've wondered whether he used his ring in that endeavour. Probably not
since there were three others involved who had rings of Power of their own;
Galadriel, Elrond and of course Gandalf, who had Narya the Great, given by
Cirdan. Although they could not be used as weapons it seems likely that
they could have uncovered the workings of a fourth ring alongside them. And
revealing such a thing would surely have raised suspicions against him.
silr...@hotmail.com wrote in article <6r2f2k$1gk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Mike Scott Rohan
from silr...@hotmail.com contains these words:
[snip}
> I'm sure he was trying to, maybe working on a prototype...perhaps one that
> was weak and rough he couldn't use it on anyone but Wormtongue & his other
> minions. (see the crackpot theory about Grima on the "Tolkien Sarcasm Page.")
When Gandalf confronts him he is wearing a ring, and refers to
himself, I think, as "Saruman Ringmaker" -- so chances are he's been
practising. But probably as with Orthanc vs. Barad-dur, produced only
" a slave's flattery."
Cheers,
Mike
--
mike.sco...@asgard.zetnet.co.uk
Mike Kew
t.co.uk> wrote
Indeed, and at some stage he seems to have lost a part of his power.
So possibly he simply made a terrible hash of ring-making -
investing it with part of his power, just like Sauron had, only to
find that it was locked away and he couldn't use it, later, when he
faced Gandalf the White.
--
Mike Kew
"Rover would have liked the little boy, if he had not been too angry to
listen to what he was saying to him."
Megan Westerfield
> >> I'm sure he was trying to, maybe working on a prototype...perhaps one that
> >> was weak and rough he couldn't use it on anyone but Wormtongue & his other
> >> minions. (see the crackpot theory about Grima on the "Tolkien Sarcasm Page.")
> >
> >When Gandalf confronts him he is wearing a ring, and refers to
> >himself, I think, as "Saruman Ringmaker" -- so chances are he's been
> >practising. But probably as with Orthanc vs. Barad-dur, produced only
> >" a slave's flattery."
> Indeed, and at some stage he seems to have lost a part of his power.
> So possibly he simply made a terrible hash of ring-making -
> investing it with part of his power, just like Sauron had, only to
> find that it was locked away and he couldn't use it, later, when he
> faced Gandalf the White.
I would agree. It appears that his power waned in time, though that may
also have been a result of Sauron's palantir-power over him. Or perhaps
it was not that the power was locked away but rather that Sauron "let"
him "make" a ring, and though that treachery stole some of Saruman's
power.
> "Rover would have liked the little boy, if he had not been too angry to
> listen to what he was saying to him."
Is this from Roverodom [sp]?
good to have you back. :)
*Rabbyt the Elf-Queen
~~whip-crackin', lip-smackin', no-lackin' good fun!!~~
Floriweber
It was only possible in the beginning of the 3rd age and only for the great
elves. I think that he wasn´t allowd to build one, also.
Mike Kew
Roverandom - correct. A truly lovely story. Find it, read it.
I've decided to use random quotes from Tolkien for a .sig - at
least, that way, I can't be accused of being off-topic there...
and anyone who wants to have some innocent fun can try to
attribute them correctly.
>good to have you back. :)
Thank you, noble Rabbyt. Nice to be here.
--
Mike Kew
"I made sure it was yellow"
Megan Westerfield
> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Megan Westerfield <west...@mc.edu> wrote
> >On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Mike Kew wrote:
> >
> >> "Rover would have liked the little boy, if he had not been too angry to
> >> listen to what he was saying to him."
> >
> >Is this from Roverodom [sp]?
>
> Roverandom - correct. A truly lovely story. Find it, read it.
I can find it--it's just a question of reading it. On my first
perusal of it, it didn't quite suck me in. Tell me what made it
so lovely.
> I've decided to use random quotes from Tolkien for a .sig - at
> least, that way, I can't be accused of being off-topic there...
> and anyone who wants to have some innocent fun can try to
> attribute them correctly.
You are so cool. :)
> >good to have you back. :)
>
> Thank you, noble Rabbyt. Nice to be here.
You're welcome. :)
*Rabbyt the Elf-Queen
Mike Kew
>On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Mike Kew wrote:
>>
>> Roverandom - correct. A truly lovely story. Find it, read it.
>
>I can find it--it's just a question of reading it. On my first
>perusal of it, it didn't quite suck me in. Tell me what made it
>so lovely.
It's a children's story, set in that children's world that is both
ours and not-ours. I don't have any kids, so I'm not sure what
age range it would be aimed at, but I imagine it would be ideal
for reading aloud to very small kids, or for reading by very large
ones (such as many on this newsgroup).
The world is quite definitely mid-20th-century England - there's
some quite specific English references, though not many - with
added wizards and goblins and dragons[1] and a Man in the Moon,
all lurking just out of sight, ready to spark off the most surreal
adventures for an unsuspecting small dog.
Though it is a children's story - not unlike The Hobbit, in some
ways - it doesn't talk down to its readers: the writing style is
rich and almost poetic in places. And it has a dreamlike quality
that makes it ring true, to me at any rate. It describes, for
instance, where children go when they dream, and how the Man in
the Moon gets his mail delivered, and what happened to some of
those old gods that people used to believe in centuries ago.
There are also connections in the story with Middle-Earth itself,
which might lead me to think that this world *is* Middle-Earth,
catapulted forward into our 20th century - but I haven't made up
my mind about that.
On the whole, it's a splendid read for those of us who think that
it's possible to take Middle-Earth *too seriously*.
--
Mike Kew
"You never know what will happen next, when once you get mixed up with
wizards and their friends."
BKaplan104
yet?