Ainur and children
Johnny1A
The answer is clearly a qualified yes. Melian gave birth to
Luthien, obviously. But that was with Thingol as the father. So what
I'm left wondering is: could a male and female Vala/Maia produce
offspring, and if so, what would the offspring be (Vala, Maia, etc).
Likewise, what would you get if you crossed an Ainu and a Man (male or
female)?
Thingol was immortal, just in a lesser way than his wife. But the
offspring of an Ainu and a mortal human would be a different kettle of
fish.
Shermanlee
Donald Shepherd
sherm...@hotmail.com says...
Dior, child of Beren and Luthien, could be taken to indicate that Maiar
and Men could reproduce, as Luthien is 50% Maia. I doubt Tolkien took
such details as genetic inheritence into account during his writings
(Elves turning into Men sort of stops that idea) though, so this is a
rather dubious case :).
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_...@hotmail.com>
Classic Opening Lines from the Bulwer-Lytton Contest:
"Kirk's mind raced as he quickly assessed his situation: the
shields were down, the warp drive and impulse engines were dead, life
support was failing fast, and the Enterprise was plummeting out of
control toward the surface of Epsilon VI and, as Scotty and Spock
searched frantically through the manuals trying to find a way to save
them all, Kirk vowed, as he stared at the solid blue image filling the
main view screen, that never again would he allow a Microsoft operating
system to control his ship."
rand mair fheal
sherm...@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) wrote:
by 1960 at the latest valar and maiar no longer procreated
whether they engaged in recreational nonprocreation jrrt does not commment
melian is special
for she so loved her thingol she gave him her only begotting womb
as long thingol remained alive she kept the form of an elf woman complete
with all the innards
so while luthien tinuviel way be spiritually the child of elf and maia
physically shes all elf
Steuard Jensen
<MPG.15d8919ba...@news.uq.edu.au>:
> > Here's a question I've pondered. Can Ainur reproduce?
> Dior, child of Beren and Luthien, could be taken to indicate that
> Maiar and Men could reproduce, as Luthien is 50% Maia.
I don't think I'd say that, myself. My belief is that Luthien is 100%
Elf, but that 50% of that is "really cool Elf". To be marginally more
specific, I believe that Melian took on an essentially "perfect"
Elf-form in order to bear children with Thingol. As far as I can
tell, this is the only sense in which Ainur can reproduce: they could
potentially produce offspring from the physical forms that they
assumed. (I wonder if Yavanna was ever polinated by bees when she was
in the form of a tree...) Of course, they would in general be
horrified to go through with such a thing, because it would almost
certainly bind them permanantly to that physical form as described in
the "Osanwe-kenta" (a remarkable essay by Tolkien published in _Vinyar
Tengwar_ #39, available for just $2 from www.elvish.org: get yours
today!). Melian seems to have decided that her love for Thingol
_would_ last forever, and that therefore being bound to her form as
his wife was an acceptable price.
Steuard Jensen
Johnny1A
Jensen) wrote:
Good points! The Ainur in their 'native' form are after all pure
spirits, while the Children of Eru are a combination of matter and
spiritual essence. My own theory is that an Ainu _can_ reproduce, but
_only_ in partnership with one of the Children. Even if they took on
two flawlessly perfect physical forms, I don't think two Ainu could
produce children without a special dispensation from Eru.
>(I wonder if Yavanna was ever polinated by bees when she was
> in the form of a tree...)
Does Aule know you're asking things like that about his wife? :-)
Geza Giedke
> Quoth Donald Shepherd <donald_...@hotmail.com> in article
> <MPG.15d8919ba...@news.uq.edu.au>:
> > sherm...@hotmail.com says...
> > > Here's a question I've pondered. Can Ainur reproduce?
> > Dior, child of Beren and Luthien, could be taken to indicate that
> > Maiar and Men could reproduce, as Luthien is 50% Maia.
> I don't think I'd say that, myself. My belief is that Luthien is
> 100% Elf, but that 50% of that is "really cool Elf". To be
> marginally more specific, I believe that Melian took on an
> essentially "perfect" Elf-form in order to bear children with
> Thingol.
but isn't is said somewhere in TS about Luthien or her offspring something
along the lines of "only through her came among Men some of the Spirit
that was before Arda" (sorry for the bad quote from memory), which
indicates to me some "divine genetic material".
> As far as I can tell, this is the only sense in which
> Ainur can reproduce: they could potentially produce offspring from
> the physical forms that they assumed.
I agree: since everything else connected to Morgoth usually
"multiplied (like flies)", but we never hear of such a thing
concerning Balrogs, it seems likely that they couldn't produce progeny.
regards
Geza
--
Now come ye all,
who have courage and hope! My call harken
to flight, to freedom in far places!
Lays of Beleriand
Johnny1A
wrote:
> I agree: since everything else connected to Morgoth usually
> "multiplied (like flies)", but we never hear of such a thing
> concerning Balrogs, it seems likely that they couldn't produce progeny.
>
> regards
> Geza
Which in turn brings up the old and frustrating question of why
Melkor was able to corrupt an entire race, a question even Tolkien was
never easy in his mind about.
Shermanlee
rand mair fheal
sherm...@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) wrote:
did morgoth invent talkshow tv
jenny
rickie
jerry
oprah
geraldo
phil
Geza Giedke
> did morgoth invent talkshow tv
no, but he who did was clearly WAY on the Dark Side - a hint of Sauron
taking shape again at Warner Bros.?
SCNR
janne
'Ramrod
Conrad Dunkerson
news:b3030854.01080...@posting.google.com...
> Good points! The Ainur in their 'native' form are after all
> pure spirits, while the Children of Eru are a combination of
> matter and spiritual essence. My own theory is that an Ainu
> _can_ reproduce, but _only_ in partnership with one of the
> Children. Even if they took on two flawlessly perfect physical
> forms, I don't think two Ainu could produce children without a
> special dispensation from Eru.
In earlier versions of the legends the beings who would later be
called 'Maiar' were the Children of the Valar. Eonwe, for
example, was the SON of Manwe and Varda. Tolkien very clearly
abandoned this idea, but there is still some debate over whether
he decided that the Ainur >could< not have children, or >would<
not have children. I've started to lean more towards the 'would
not' view given that there are some apparent examples where they
do. Luthien of course, but perhaps that is only because the
father was an incarnate. However, Tolkien also suggested that
the Eagles were Maiar in a couple of places... if that holds then
Gwaihir being a descendant of Thorondor would indicate that the
Maiar could have children with each other by taking on a permanent
physical form.
I don't think even Tolkien ever worked it all out, but I think
the idea that they were capable but generally avoided doing so
makes sense. Ethically they should avoid having children because
they were sent to be guardians of the Eruhini... not to breed up
a race that would supplant them. Personally they should avoid
having children because it bound them to physical form and
weakened them.