[semi OT] Studio Ghibli films on TV.
Nuki Mouse
every Thursday night in January along with several other Studio Ghibli
movies he wrote, first in English then later that night in subtitled
Japanese. I was particularly glad to see the Japanese subtitled version of
"Whisper of the Heart" I had not seen before. Next week (1/26) is Pom Poko
about magical shapeshifting Racoons protecting their forest homes form urban
developement and a more serious anime drama called Only Yesterday about a 27
year old office lady reminiscing about her childhood and lost dreams while
visiting her sister's farm.
Hayao Miyazaki is considered to be the "Walt Disney" of Japan, famous for
animated movies like "Spirited Away" which won the Academy Award for Best
Animated Film 2 years ago. He has done several fantasies like Nausicaa of
the Valley of the Wind, Laputa: Castle in the Sky, Howl's Moving Castle, and
Princess Mononoke. More children orientated films like Kiki's Delivery
Service, My Neighbor Totoro and even a pre-WWII Air Pirate film set in
Fascist Italy called Porco Rosso.
Almost all of Miyazaki films either star or "co-star" a strong young female
character (that looks surprisingly the same from film to film, at least to
me) and aircraft of one type or another. He is famous for the stunning
Visual imagery and backgrounds in his films, and the serious subject matters
covered in many of his films, even those aimed at a younger audience.
I was wondering if anyone had watched any of these films, your opinions of
them, and how you thought they stacked up compared to films or books like
"The Hobbit," LotR, Harry Potter, and Narnia?
Nuki Mouse
--
"This is just my opinion, I maybe wrong" D. Miller
"Defend free speech! Read a banned book today!" unknown.
"I may not like what you say, but I will defend your right to say it with
my Life" Voltaire
Robinsons
> Almost all of Miyazaki films either star or "co-star" a strong young female
> character (that looks surprisingly the same from film to film, at least to
> me) and aircraft of one type or another. He is famous for the stunning
> Visual imagery and backgrounds in his films, and the serious subject matters
> covered in many of his films, even those aimed at a younger audience.
>
> I was wondering if anyone had watched any of these films, your opinions of
> them, and how you thought they stacked up compared to films or books like
> "The Hobbit," LotR, Harry Potter, and Narnia?
>
> Nuki Mouse
Well, since Miyazaki animated "The Hobbit", one of the
earliest Japanimation flicks, it's not OT for alt.fan.tolkien.
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
> Well, since Miyazaki animated "The Hobbit", one of the
> earliest Japanimation flicks [...]
Really? I've been looking for details and can't find them.
Can't find it in his IMDb credits:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0594503/
Are you sure it is not another Miyazaki?
I found some references which put him at close remove, but not actually
working on the film:
http://www.ultimatedisney.com/nausicaa.html
"Working with Top Craft studio, which had before then worked on
Rankin-Bass productions such as The Hobbit and The Last Unicorn,
Miyazaki began to flesh out his film."
Others seem to have made the same conflation:
http://www.animenation.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-153871.html
"The two best Miyazaki? The Last Unicorn The Hobbit."
Followed by the response:
"As far as I know, Miyazaki was not involved in either film. However,
both were animated by a Japanese animation studio called Top Craft.
Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind was also animated by Top Craft. Later,
when Miyazaki and Takahata decided to establish Studio Ghibli, they
decided to bring along the senior staff at Top Craft to form the core of
the studio. It's really very interesting."
So, yes, the Rankin Bass Hobbit cartoon was worked on by Japanese
animators that soon afterwards worked for what would become Studio
Ghibli, but it seems that Miyazaki didn't actually work on the film.
Of Miyazaki's work, I've only seen 'Spirited Away'. I quite enjoyed it.
Of other Japanese animation, I've only seen 'Akira', well, unless you
count the Rankin Bass 'The Hobbit'... :-) Oh, and several children's TV
series, such as 'Thundercats'.
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Odo 5435
> Turner Classic Movies has been running 2 or 3 Hayao Miyazaki directed films
> every Thursday night in January along with several other Studio Ghibli
> movies he wrote, first in English then later that night in subtitled
> Japanese.
It's times like this I wish we had kept our cable subscription.
Miyazaki himself prefers dubbed versions of his films as he feels the
subtitles detract from the animation. But having only ever seen dubbed
versions it would be nice to make my own comparison. Dubbed animation
generally works better than in live action films as lip syncing is not
so great a problem.
> Hayao Miyazaki is considered to be the "Walt Disney" of Japan,
A title he abhors. He prefers to be referred to as having an individual
style. His films have been created well after Disney's death and
comparing the two is akin to comparing apples to oranges. Miyazaki has
lifted animated filmaking to a new level completely.
My favourite Miyazaki film is easily Porco Rosso. It has superlative
animation (as do they all) and an engrossing bitter/sweet story that at
times has you forgetting that you are watching a cartoon. I might even
suggest that Porco Rosso is the best cartoon ever made.
And I love the fact that Miyazaki still uses human animators. It has
been reported that he will allow no more than 10% CGI. I believe his
films are better for it.
My favourite Hayao Miyazaki quote is, "When I think about the way the
computer has taken over and eliminated a certain experience of life,
that makes me sad. When we were animating fire some staff said they had
never seen wood burning. I said, 'Go watch!' It has disappeared from
their daily lives. Japanese baths used to be made by burning firewood.
Now you press a button."
I am kicking myself for having missed Howl's Moving Castle during it's
regrettably short season at our local theatre and now having to wait
for DVD.
Yuk Tang
news:dqsep...@news2.newsguy.com:
> I was wondering if anyone had watched any of these films, your
> opinions of them, and how you thought they stacked up compared to
> films or books like "The Hobbit," LotR, Harry Potter, and Narnia?
>
> Nuki Mouse
Heidi might be a better comparison. I grew up adoring the Japanese
animation of that story, but it was only later that I found out who the
animator was. Incidentally, Isao Takahata, the director of Only
Yesterday and Pom poko, directed that TV series.
Miyazaki's stories for older children may be compared with Rosemary
Sutcliffe, whose work he enjoys, but perhaps with more serious
overtones. Porco Rosso is something else altogether, intended for a
rather older audience (himself, maybe).
--
Cheers, ymt.
Yuk Tang
news:1137847699....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
>
>> Turner Classic Movies has been running 2 or 3 Hayao Miyazaki
>> directed films every Thursday night in January along with several
>> other Studio Ghibli movies he wrote, first in English then later
>> that night in subtitled Japanese.
>
> It's times like this I wish we had kept our cable subscription.
> Miyazaki himself prefers dubbed versions of his films as he feels
> the subtitles detract from the animation. But having only ever
> seen dubbed versions it would be nice to make my own comparison.
> Dubbed animation generally works better than in live action films
> as lip syncing is not so great a problem.
Miyazaki doesn't seem too fussy about how his films are marketed to
the west (correction: he barely cares), as long as they put some
heart into their efforts. Apart from Warriors of the Wind, I don't
recall him commenting on any specific dubbed effort other than the
French dub of Porco Rosso, which he preferred to the original.
> My favourite Miyazaki film is easily Porco Rosso. It has
> superlative animation (as do they all) and an engrossing
> bitter/sweet story that at times has you forgetting that you are
> watching a cartoon. I might even suggest that Porco Rosso is the
> best cartoon ever made.
Porco Rosso is supposed to be a closer rendition of dogfighting than
the likes of Pearl Harbor. Or Star Wars, for that matter.
Unsurprising for a director who's a self-admitted aviation freak.
> And I love the fact that Miyazaki still uses human animators. It
> has been reported that he will allow no more than 10% CGI. I
> believe his films are better for it.
>
> My favourite Hayao Miyazaki quote is, "When I think about the way
> the computer has taken over and eliminated a certain experience of
> life, that makes me sad. When we were animating fire some staff
> said they had never seen wood burning. I said, 'Go watch!' It has
> disappeared from their daily lives. Japanese baths used to be made
> by burning firewood. Now you press a button."
I liked that UK mag interview where the interview was interrupted by
a thud as a bird flew into his window. Miyazaki took the bird in,
put it in a box, placed it by a fire, phoned the Japanese equivalent
of RSPB, and continued the interview. The interview ended when the
bird revived and he took it outside, to fly away when its grogginess
had worn off.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Odo 5435
Yuk Tang wrote:
> Miyazaki doesn't seem too fussy about how his films are marketed to
> the west (correction: he barely cares), as long as they put some
> heart into their efforts. Apart from Warriors of the Wind, I don't
> recall him commenting on any specific dubbed effort other than the
> French dub of Porco Rosso, which he preferred to the original.
He made the general comment about sub-titling in an TV interview with a
film critic shown here in Australia.
> I liked that UK mag interview where the interview was interrupted by
> a thud as a bird flew into his window. Miyazaki took the bird in,
> put it in a box, placed it by a fire, phoned the Japanese equivalent
> of RSPB, and continued the interview. The interview ended when the
> bird revived and he took it outside, to fly away when its grogginess
> had worn off.
Nice insight.
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
> Miyazaki himself prefers dubbed versions of his films as he feels the
> subtitles detract from the animation. But having only ever seen dubbed
> versions it would be nice to make my own comparison. Dubbed animation
> generally works better than in live action films as lip syncing is not
> so great a problem.
Ideally, the viewer is allowed to make the choice, rather than the
producer or director. I get annoyed when some film companies only
provide dubbed versions of a film, and don't include a subtitles option
(I fell for this several times with UK versions of Chinese martial arts
film).
I'm not sure, but I would have thought that, in general, dubbing is more
expensive than subtitling. Also, as a script is used for the dubbing,
using that script as a basis for subtitles would not be difficult, and
not including subtitles is purely sloppy work on the part of film-makers
and distributors. Maybe they are rushing to meet a deadline, or have the
silly idea that they can save money by not including subtitles.
Thankfully, subtitling is becoming ever more widespread. But it still
annoys me immensely when films and TV material is released to DVD
without subtitles. Two recent cases were the Farscape DVD boxsets, and
the Agatha Christie Poirot boxsets (with Poirot played by David Suchet).
Two cases where I would have bought the DVDs, but the lack of subtitles
has put me off buying them.
Fish Eye no Miko
> Odo 5435 wrote:
>
>> Miyazaki himself prefers dubbed versions of his films as he feels
>> the subtitles detract from the animation. But having only ever
>> seen dubbed versions it would be nice to make my own comparison.
>> Dubbed animation generally works better than in live action films
>> as lip syncing is not so great a problem.
>
> I don't really understand this, because I cannot stand watching a
> dubbed version of a foreign language movie. If the director has
> gone through the trouble of finding appropriate actors for the
> movie, why abandon them for second-rate foreign actors,
Trust me, I've heard a few dub actors that I would NOT call "second rate".
The idea that "foreign" dub actors are all somehow inferior to native dub
actors is pretty insulting.
> especially since they usually make the dialogue sound corny,
Listen to the _FullMetal Alchemist_, _Cowboy Bebop_, or _Trigun_ dubs and
say that.
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"At least some oboe player got a paycheck out of all this horse hockey..."
-Mike Nelson, _Mystery Science Theater 3000_.
Fish Eye no Miko
> Well, since Miyazaki animated "The Hobbit", one of the
> earliest Japanimation flicks,
No, it's not. It was made by am Amercian company for an American audience.
And please call it "anime".
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"No dragons were harmed in the making of this movie."
-End credits, _Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire_.
Nuki Mouse
news:1137847699....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
[snp]
>> Hayao Miyazaki is considered to be the "Walt Disney" of Japan,
>
> A title he abhors. He prefers to be referred to as having an individual
> style. His films have been created well after Disney's death and
> comparing the two is akin to comparing apples to oranges. Miyazaki has
> lifted animated filmaking to a new level completely.
When I wroye that I didn't mean to infer his style was the same as Disney's,
but tht his impact on the Animation world was. In his day, Disney also
raised animated filmmaking to new levels of excellence, and produced
wonderful films that were a step above what others were doing. Miyazaki has
just inherited that mantle.
> My favourite Miyazaki film is easily Porco Rosso. It has superlative
> animation (as do they all) and an engrossing bitter/sweet story that at
> times has you forgetting that you are watching a cartoon. I might even
> suggest that Porco Rosso is the best cartoon ever made.
Porco Rosso is also a favorite of mine, yet I always had a soft spot for
Kiki's Delivery Service. It was the very first Miyazaki film (well... 2nd, I
had already seen that awful cut up dub Warriors of the Wind but that doesn't
count) I saw, and had no idea of what to expect.
BTW, in PR, Gina waits everyday in her garden for her secret lover, (some
secret) betting herself that if she only waits there everyday long enough
that one day "he" will come for her. But that "he" only visits her at night
at her club, NEVER during the day. OK, straight from the movie.
But did you ever notice that when Fio is recalling what happens to everyone
in the years after the fight, in the scene where she flies her jet over
Gina's island, Porco Rosso's seaplane is tied up to Gina's private dock IN
THE DAYTIME, and then in the scene of Gina's garden, she is no longer
waiting in her gazebo for her "lover." So it seems that Miyazaki was
letting us know that Gina DID win her bet after all.
Nuki Mouse
--
"This is just my opinion, I maybe wrong" D. Miller
"Defend free speech! Read a banned book today!" unknown.
"I may not like what you say, but I will defend your right to say it with
my Life" Voltaire
Nuki_Mouse
Heather Fieldhouse
"Fish Eye no Miko" <fis...@deadmoon.circus> wrote:
> No, it's not. It was made by am Amercian company for an American audience.
> And please call it "anime".
Right, but as another poster pointed out, it was animated by Top Craft,
a Japanese outfit. So although everything you say is true, it's a
little misleading to characterize it as American animation.
Heather
Nuki Mouse
news:Xns97528B71C876D...@130.133.1.4...
> "Odo 5435" <odo...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:1137847699....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
>> Nuki Mouse wrote:
>>
>>> Turner Classic Movies has been running 2 or 3 Hayao Miyazaki
>>> directed films every Thursday night in January along with several
>>> other Studio Ghibli movies he wrote, first in English then later
>>> that night in subtitled Japanese.
>>
>> It's times like this I wish we had kept our cable subscription.
>> Miyazaki himself prefers dubbed versions of his films as he feels
>> the subtitles detract from the animation. But having only ever
>> seen dubbed versions it would be nice to make my own comparison.
>> Dubbed animation generally works better than in live action films
>> as lip syncing is not so great a problem.
>
> Miyazaki doesn't seem too fussy about how his films are marketed to
> the west (correction: he barely cares), as long as they put some
> heart into their efforts. Apart from Warriors of the Wind, I don't
> recall him commenting on any specific dubbed effort other than the
> French dub of Porco Rosso, which he preferred to the original.
Actually, I heard it was the opposite. He was so upset with the massive
cuts, re-editing, and awful dialog and voice acting in "Warriors", that he
would NOT allow anymore of his films to be dubbed into English (except
Totoro) without complete control. This kept his films out of the US/English
language market for years. It was only when Disney approached Studio Ghibli
and bought the rights that the new dubs were made. Many elite purist claimed
Ghibli "sold out" to Disney, but Miyazaki said that he thought they could do
an excellent job dubbing them into English.
Moreover Studio Ghibli has complete control over the dubbing, Disney can't
even cut one second of film from any Ghibli film without their permission,
and they must approve of the new translated dialog. Changes have been made,
but only if Ghibli (Miyazaki) approves of them.
This is seen most notably in "KiKi's Delivery Service." In the original
Japanese version, there were long scenes of Kiki flying where there was no
background music, and a couple of shorter scenes also sans music as well.
When Disney's version came out, musical scores had been added to these
scenes. The fact that the score was good did not matter, the purist bitched
that Disney was interfering with Miyazaki's artistic vision and that adding
the music "ruined" the movie and a sign Disney would ruin all Ghibli Dubs.
But when asked about these "foul changes" Disney made, Miyazaki admitted
that not only did he approve of the music, he helped pick it out. He said
that the lack of music in some scenes of Kiki was not intentional or some
special "vision" of his, but due to him not having the money to completely
score Kiki when he first made it. He always meant to go back and add music
later when he could afford a good quaility original score made to fit the
scenes. The Disney dub just allowed him to do that.
>> My favourite Miyazaki film is easily Porco Rosso. It has
>> superlative animation (as do they all) and an engrossing
>> bitter/sweet story that at times has you forgetting that you are
>> watching a cartoon. I might even suggest that Porco Rosso is the
>> best cartoon ever made.
>
> Porco Rosso is supposed to be a closer rendition of dogfighting than
> the likes of Pearl Harbor. Or Star Wars, for that matter.
> Unsurprising for a director who's a self-admitted aviation freak.
And Ghibli the nickname the Italians gave to their scout planes during WWII,
Miyazaki liked the sound of the word, so he used it as the name for his
company.
Yuk Tang
>> to the west (correction: he barely cares), as long as they put
>> some heart into their efforts. Apart from Warriors of the Wind,
>> I don't recall him commenting on any specific dubbed effort other
>> than the French dub of Porco Rosso, which he preferred to the
>> original.
>
> Actually, I heard it was the opposite. He was so upset with the
> massive cuts, re-editing, and awful dialog and voice acting in
> "Warriors", that he would NOT allow anymore of his films to be
> dubbed into English (except Totoro) without complete control. This
> kept his films out of the US/English language market for years.
> It was only when Disney approached Studio Ghibli and bought the
> rights that the new dubs were made. Many elite purist claimed
> Ghibli "sold out" to Disney, but Miyazaki said that he thought
> they could do an excellent job dubbing them into English.
That's what I meant. Warriors of the Wind was an example of how not
to do it, as a result of which HM refused to let his films be
marketed in the west. But when someone showed him that they were
dedicated to bringing his vision to an audience, he gave them free
rein to do what they thought was necessary. All he wanted was for
_his_ film to be shown, not someone else's edit.
> Moreover Studio Ghibli has complete control over the dubbing,
> Disney can't even cut one second of film from any Ghibli film
> without their permission, and they must approve of the new
> translated dialog. Changes have been made, but only if Ghibli
> (Miyazaki) approves of them.
>
> This is seen most notably in "KiKi's Delivery Service." In the
> original Japanese version, there were long scenes of Kiki flying
> where there was no background music, and a couple of shorter
> scenes also sans music as well. When Disney's version came out,
> musical scores had been added to these scenes. The fact that the
> score was good did not matter, the purist bitched that Disney was
> interfering with Miyazaki's artistic vision and that adding the
> music "ruined" the movie and a sign Disney would ruin all Ghibli
> Dubs.
>
> But when asked about these "foul changes" Disney made, Miyazaki
> admitted that not only did he approve of the music, he helped pick
> it out. He said that the lack of music in some scenes of Kiki was
> not intentional or some special "vision" of his, but due to him
> not having the money to completely score Kiki when he first made
> it. He always meant to go back and add music later when he could
> afford a good quaility original score made to fit the scenes. The
> Disney dub just allowed him to do that.
I've not heard that before. AFAIknew Hisaishi made all musical
decisions on Miyazaki's behalf, HM trusting him implicitly in this
area.
>>> My favourite Miyazaki film is easily Porco Rosso. It has
>>> superlative animation (as do they all) and an engrossing
>>> bitter/sweet story that at times has you forgetting that you are
>>> watching a cartoon. I might even suggest that Porco Rosso is the
>>> best cartoon ever made.
>>
>> Porco Rosso is supposed to be a closer rendition of dogfighting
>> than the likes of Pearl Harbor. Or Star Wars, for that matter.
>> Unsurprising for a director who's a self-admitted aviation freak.
>
> And Ghibli the nickname the Italians gave to their scout planes
> during WWII, Miyazaki liked the sound of the word, so he used it
> as the name for his company.
Does anyone know what Miyazaki thinks of the Spitfire? I'd have
thought that he'd appreciate a beautiful aircraft like the famous
British fighter, but he's on record as describing the late 1920s as
the end of aesthetics in aviation.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Fata Morgana
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:54pAf.4971$wl....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> Of Miyazaki's work, I've only seen 'Spirited Away'. I quite enjoyed it.
Do yourself a favor and watch some more of his work. It's really beautiful
work.
- Mary P.
--
http://www.jazzmess.com - a viewers' guide to Cowboy Bebop
http://www.jazzmess.com/dream - my little dream
Fata Morgana
"Heather Fieldhouse" <bunny...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:bunnyhugger-0BD5...@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
Not really. Most American animation these days is animated in Korea - does
that make it Korean anime? I don't think so.
Patrick Joseph McNamara
"Odo 5435" <odo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137847699....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Nuki Mouse wrote:
> It's times like this I wish we had kept our cable subscription.
> Miyazaki himself prefers dubbed versions of his films as he feels the
> subtitles detract from the animation. But having only ever seen dubbed
> versions it would be nice to make my own comparison. Dubbed animation
> generally works better than in live action films as lip syncing is not
> so great a problem.
It's nice that DVD can offer both, so that one can watch it both ways. I
like having the dubbed, especially with stuff that has a lot of dialogue,
otherwise I find I'm busy reading and not really watching. It's easy to miss
a lot. In live action, what's going on in the background usually isn't that
important, where in animation, if something happens in the background, it's
often there for a reason.
Nuki Mouse
news:Nd2dnZF7RPb...@comcast.com...
[snip]
>> Miyazaki himself prefers dubbed versions of his films as he feels the
>> subtitles detract from the animation. But having only ever seen dubbed
>> versions it would be nice to make my own comparison. Dubbed animation
>> generally works better than in live action films as lip syncing is not
>> so great a problem.
>
> version of a foreign language movie. If the director has gone through the
> trouble of finding appropriate actors for the movie, why abandon them for
> second-rate foreign actors,
So the opinion of the very Director that made the films in question doesn't
matter? Miyazaki had complete oversight in both the choice of voice actors
and their dialog.
And just whom were these substandard actors that he and Disney picked?
Umm... Kirsten Dunst, Debbie Reynolds, Phil Hartman, Matthew Lawrence,
Jeanna Garofalo, Kisten Bell, Rene Auberjonis, Peter Boyle, Tim Curry,
Elliot Gould, Cary Elwes, Dakota (and her little sister Elle) Fanning, Mark
Hamill, Cloris Leachman, Anna Paquin, James Van Der Beek, Jim Cummings,
Lauren Bacall, Christian Bale, Billy Crstal, Blythe Danner, Michael Chiklis,
Lauren Holly, John Ratzenberger, David Ogden Stiers, Suzanne Pleshette,
Gillian Anderson, Claire Danes, Kieth David, Minnie Driver, Billy Bob
Thornton, Michael Keaton, Susan Egan, Harold Gould, Edward James Olmos,
Alison lohman, Uma Thurman, Patrick Syewart... many more...
Yep, just a whole slew full of very bad second rate actors, none of them
will ever amount to much.
I didn't even list all the great voice only actors, since only hardcore
animation, anime or video game fans would recognize most of the names, but I
do have to add one of my favorites who somewhere in almost every
Ghibli/Disney dub.
Tress MacNeille, the voice of Gadget, Chip, Dale, Zipper, Daisy Duck,
Charlotte Pickles, Linda, Dot Warner, Hello Nurse, Pepper Mills & Toast,
Barbara Anne (Babs) Bunny, and hundreds of others in the last 25+ years
> especially since they usually make the dialogue sound corny, and they
> detract far more from the movie than subtitles do.
And many times this is due to a bad or too literal translation, which will
still show up as a bad translation in subtitles as well. I remember one
anime scene were a piece of equipment blew up, One character asked: "What
caused that?" The second character answered, "I don't know, just the North
Wind I guess?" They were in Outer Space, in a vacuum. I remember thinking
how cheesy and stupid the dialog was, a WIND in the Vacuum of space? Later
I found out that in Japanese "North Wind" can also mean "Bad Luck," and
after that line made sense.
>After a few minutes, the subtitles become something of second nature, and
>you hardly realize they are there.
You might not notice, but others like me don't like missing a line of dialog
because we were looking at a something near the top of the screen, or
missing a beautiful bit of scenery because we were reading the dialog at the
bottom.
> Also, having the original languages helps preserve the flavor of the
> movie--
Oh yes, watching Porco Rosso in the original Japanese maintains that Italian
Villa/Mediterranean Sea flair of the movie so well.
> the movies are from a different culture, and as such usually feel
> different than American movies, so why try to assimilate them to American
> tastes? (Speaking as an American; substitute other culture as
> appropriate....)
So seeing a foreign film should be difficult experience, between reading
subtitles, badly translated cultural idioms and dialog, and filled with
culture specific icons, phrases and imagery that just leave the viewer
confused?
That only some elite snob that happen to learn most of these foreign idioms
should be allowed to enjoy the film, and any attempt to adapt it to the new
audience scraped because we are just the "uninformed undeserving masses?"
200...@wongfaye.com
totoro is really good as is kiki's porco i just saw a couple nights ago
and wow it was awesome and the laputa was pretty good
castle of cagliostro was a pretty good movie (i didn't realize it was
from a tv show when i saw it)
the same girl in each movie (i call her kiki) is kind of weird but its
like our stars in every movie
i imagine if he was a live action director and had exclusive access to
winona ryder he would use her in every movie
its neat that they are on tcm
if we could just break the animation is for kids mantra
the simpsons has done alot to dispell that but we got along way to go
Fish Eye no Miko
> That only some elite snob that happen to learn most of these
> foreign idioms should be allowed to enjoy the film, and any attempt
> to adapt it to the new audience scraped because we are just the
> "uninformed undeserving masses?"
Oh, goody, goody! A sub/dub war on a newsgroup that has nothing to do with
anime!
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
Derek Janssen
> Nuki Mouse wrote:
>>
>>I was wondering if anyone had watched any of these films, your opinions of
>>them, and how you thought they stacked up compared to films or books like
>>"The Hobbit," LotR, Harry Potter, and Narnia?
>>
>>Nuki Mouse
>
>
> Well, since Miyazaki animated "The Hobbit", one of the
> earliest Japanimation flicks, it's not OT for alt.fan.tolkien.
Um, *noooooo*...
SOME animators who worked for Rankin-Bass between "Hobbit" and "Last
Unicorn" (but before "Thundercats") went on to create Studio Ghibli, but
that's it--
Miyazaki himself was busy animating directing at least three other TV
series during that period, and never got off the continent.
So, that officially drops a.f.t from the list, and a.f.h-p was...just
plain desperate, Nukie. Don't try so hard next time.
Derek Janssen (and we use the term "next time" LOOSELY)
eja...@comcast.net
Derek Janssen
> Nuki Mouse wrote:
>
>>Hayao Miyazaki is considered to be the "Walt Disney" of Japan,
>
> A title he abhors.
Probably due to its association with Osamu Tezuka, who IS called the
Walt Disney of Japan. Me, I'd hate it too.
> I am kicking myself for having missed Howl's Moving Castle during it's
> regrettably short season at our local theatre and now having to wait
> for DVD.
Rent the DVD, and give your seat a breather--It t'warn't his best.
Derek Janssen
eja...@comcast.net
Derek Janssen
> Nuki Mouse wrote:
>
>
>>That only some elite snob that happen to learn most of these
>>foreign idioms should be allowed to enjoy the film, and any attempt
>>to adapt it to the new audience scraped because we are just the
>>"uninformed undeserving masses?"
>
>
> Oh, goody, goody! A sub/dub war on a newsgroup that has nothing to do with
> anime!
Well, if the OP *was* on an anime group, they'd have given up the S/D
wars ten years ago when DVD came out, like all the others...
Derek Janssen (ah, a nostalgic breeze of cluelessness)
eja...@comcast.net
Fish Eye no Miko
> Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
>> Nuki Mouse wrote:
>>
>>> That only some elite snob that happen to learn most of these
>>> foreign idioms should be allowed to enjoy the film, and any
>>> attempt to adapt it to the new audience scraped because we
>>> are just the "uninformed undeserving masses?"
>>
>> Oh, goody, goody! A sub/dub war on a newsgroup that has
>> nothing to do with anime!
>
> Well, if the OP *was* on an anime group, they'd have given up
> the S/D wars ten years ago when DVD came out, like all the
> others...
Yeah, no kidding...
> Derek Janssen (ah, a nostalgic breeze of cluelessness)
<sniff, sniff>
Smells like... victory?
Catherine Johnson. Either that or Teen Spirit... I always get those
confused.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"I'm the impish officer of death."
Nuki Mouse
news:jf-dnfSjyeBtLk_e...@comcast.com...
[snip]
> SOME animators who worked for Rankin-Bass between "Hobbit" and "Last
> Unicorn" (but before "Thundercats") went on to create Studio Ghibli, but
> that's it--
> Miyazaki himself was busy animating directing at least three other TV
> series during that period, and never got off the continent.
Shouldn't that be "...never got off the island."? :-)
> So, that officially drops a.f.t from the list, and a.f.h-p was...just
> plain desperate, Nukie. Don't try so hard next time.
The reason I crossposted it to those 2 groups was not due to a "7 degree"
connection to Tolkien or Harry Potter, but because (IMO) Studio Ghibli-
Hayao Miyazaki's films might appeal to users of both those newsgroups. His
movies have a wonderful child-like sense of magic and adventure like the
Potter books and films, yet at the same time can reach a level of
sophistication and plot depth take might be of interest to a Tolkien fan.
I thought that many members of both groups might already be fans, or might
become interested in them if they read alittle bit about them, even if the
connection to those 2 groups was mainly due to them both being for fans of
popular fantasy book/films. Why do you think I mark the OP [semi OT]?
Nor do I remember you being given the power to determine what groups I can
post to, or you being made group moderator of a.f.t. or a.f.h-p. to rule
them out of bounds?
Derek Janssen
> "Derek Janssen" <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:jf-dnfSjyeBtLk_e...@comcast.com...
> [snip]
>
> post to, or you being made group moderator of a.f.t. or a.f.h-p. to rule
> them out of bounds?
You forgot RAMC-F...Now move it, or we sic the dogs.
Derek Janssen
eja...@comcast.net
Bill Steele
"Nuki Mouse" <Nuki_...@NoSpam.com> wrote:
> And just whom were these substandard actors that he and Disney picked?
> Umm... Kirsten Dunst, Debbie Reynolds, Phil Hartman, Matthew Lawrence,
> Jeanna Garofalo, Kisten Bell, Rene Auberjonis, Peter Boyle, Tim Curry,
> Elliot Gould, Cary Elwes, Dakota (and her little sister Elle) Fanning, Mark
> Hamill, Cloris Leachman, Anna Paquin, James Van Der Beek, Jim Cummings,
> Lauren Bacall, Christian Bale, Billy Crstal, Blythe Danner, Michael Chiklis,
> Lauren Holly, John Ratzenberger, David Ogden Stiers, Suzanne Pleshette,
> Gillian Anderson, Claire Danes, Kieth David, Minnie Driver, Billy Bob
> Thornton, Michael Keaton, Susan Egan, Harold Gould, Edward James Olmos,
> Alison lohman, Uma Thurman, Patrick Syewart... many more...
>
> Yep, just a whole slew full of very bad second rate actors, none of them
> will ever amount to much.
>
> I didn't even list all the great voice only actors, since only hardcore
> animation, anime or video game fans would recognize most of the names, but I
> do have to add one of my favorites who somewhere in almost every
> Ghibli/Disney dub.
> Tress MacNeille, the voice of Gadget, Chip, Dale, Zipper, Daisy Duck,
> Charlotte Pickles, Linda, Dot Warner, Hello Nurse, Pepper Mills & Toast,
> Barbara Anne (Babs) Bunny, and hundreds of others in the last 25+ years
And when did they decide that "famous name" actors would do a better job
than experienced voice actors in the lead roles? (I'm not saying they
actually were better or worse, just questioning the concept.) The reason
for choosing names is to put those names on the marquee, but I find it
hard to believe someone would go to an animated film jut because they
recognize the names of the actors. Personally, I find highly
recognizable voices distracting from the willing suspension of
disbelief. Hey, that sounds like Kirsten Dunst but it doesn't look like
her. (Robin Williams as the genie excepted.)
Anyway, I'm studying Japanese, so I've made a vow not to watch anime in
English, so I'm grateful to TCM for giving me the choice.
Bill Steele
"200...@wongfaye.com" <200...@wongfaye.com> wrote:
> the same girl in each movie (i call her kiki) is kind of weird but its
> like our stars in every movie
> i imagine if he was a live action director and had exclusive access to
> winona ryder he would use her in every movie
I's more like there's a certain drawing style. Hand drawn faces don't
have all the subtleties of real human faces. Look at the shows on
Saturday morning or on Cartoon Network. Sometimes the only way you can
tell different women apart is that they have different color hair.
John VanSickle
> Andrew F. Donnell wrote:
>
>>I don't really understand this, because I cannot stand watching a
>>dubbed version of a foreign language movie. If the director has
>>gone through the trouble of finding appropriate actors for the
>>movie, why abandon them for second-rate foreign actors,
>
> Trust me, I've heard a few dub actors that I would NOT call "second rate".
> The idea that "foreign" dub actors are all somehow inferior to native dub
> actors is pretty insulting.
And, have you ever seen Trek dubbed in German? The German terms for
Trek technology have from twenty to a hundred and twenty syllables [1],
so getting them all spoken in the time alloted is a major feat.
Regards,
John
[1] This is an exaggeration, but not a very big one.
tomcervo
subtitled ones after midnight EST. The dubbing seems professional and
not many kids could manage to read without missing something on-screen.
Nuki Mouse
news:ws21-AA177F.1...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
[snip]
> And when did they decide that "famous name" actors would do a better job
> than experienced voice actors in the lead roles? (I'm not saying they
> actually were better or worse, just questioning the concept.)
The reason I listed all those names was "Andy's" remark of "..why abandon
them for second-rate foreign actors..." I was not saying that they were
better then profesional vioce actors, just that they were far from second
rate actors.
> The reason
> for choosing names is to put those names on the marquee, but I find it
> hard to believe someone would go to an animated film jut because they
> recognize the names of the actors.
Walt himself found using well known names and actors in his films DID draw
bigger crowds. Some adult might not want to be seen going into Lady and the
Tramp, but if he was going to hear Peggy Lee sing "He's a Tramp," he could
justify that. Even later, as competition for dwindling audiences increased,
using famous names and voices became even more common and expected. Now a
days when a new animated film comes out, one of the first thing many adults
ask is "who did the voices?"
> Personally, I find highly
> recognizable voices distracting from the willing suspension of
> disbelief. Hey, that sounds like Kirsten Dunst but it doesn't look like
> her. (Robin Williams as the genie excepted.)
I don't really agree, unless the voice is so glaringly wrong for the
character, like when I first heard Phil Hartman doing JiJi the cat. But
once the shock was over, I found I liked his take on JiJi. When you saw
Spiderman, did it ruin you suspension of disbelief to see Kirsten Dunst with
red hair? Could you not believe she was Mary Jane, because you knew the
actress from previous films?
> Anyway, I'm studying Japanese, so I've made a vow not to watch anime in
> English, so I'm grateful to TCM for giving me the choice.
I know a little bit (VERY LITTLE) of pidgin Japanese, and one day would like
to truly learn the language, but that doesn't stop me from watching the Dub.
I just watch the Sub version afterwards. For that I'm also grateful to TCM,
and that the new DVD's have both versions on them.
Fata Morgana
And to give you an alternate opinion on the subject, I thought it could be
ranked among his top three. At the very least, it was spellbinding from
begining to end, and everyone I brought to see it loved it.
Robinsons
> > Well, since Miyazaki animated "The Hobbit", one of the
> > earliest Japanimation flicks, it's not OT for alt.fan.tolkien.
>
> Um, *noooooo*...
>
> SOME animators who worked for Rankin-Bass between "Hobbit" and "Last
> Unicorn" (but before "Thundercats") went on to create Studio Ghibli, but
> that's it--
> Miyazaki himself was busy animating directing at least three other TV
> series during that period, and never got off the continent.
The Hobbit was animated by Top Craft in Japan. The animation was
entirely exported to Top Craft.
Robinsons
>
> > Well, since Miyazaki animated "The Hobbit", one of the
> > earliest Japanimation flicks,
>
> No, it's not. It was made by am Amercian company for an American audience.
> And please call it "anime".
In other words, "I didn't do it, and it was self defense!"
The Hobbit could be characterized as Japanimation, i.e. an
American film contracted out to Top Craft, which was not
considered any sort of artistic tradition...or you could
characterize it as anime in the tradition of later films
which Miyazaki also had a stronger creative hand in.
Your choice.
It is strongly likely that Miyazaki and the other animators
were the main influence on design (it does not bear any
resemblance to earlier Rankin-Bass specials produced in
America) but it does not appear to be part of the anime
tradition. That's like saying _The Hulk_ is wuxia because
it was directed by Ang Lee.
It's (the Hobbit) basically a crossover of some sort.
I suppose you will say this makes the animated _ROTK_ anime...
Davémon
> In article <1137880706....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "200...@wongfaye.com" <200...@wongfaye.com> wrote:
>
>> the same girl in each movie (i call her kiki) is kind of weird but its
>> like our stars in every movie
>> i imagine if he was a live action director and had exclusive access to
>> winona ryder he would use her in every movie
>
like Tim Burton with Johnny Depp & Helena Bonham Carter? Or Sam Raimi and
Bruce Campbell? Directors do seem to like working with the same people.
> I's more like there's a certain drawing style. Hand drawn faces don't
> have all the subtleties of real human faces.
Which is why they are more expressive when done well. Just look at that CGI
abomination with Tom Hanks - Polar Express - too much detail, not enough
cartooning.
--
Davémon
http://www.nightsoil.co.uk/
richard e white
> Turner Classic Movies has been running 2 or 3 Hayao Miyazaki directed films
> every Thursday night in January along with several other Studio Ghibli
> movies he wrote, first in English then later that night in subtitled
> Japanese. I was particularly glad to see the Japanese subtitled version of
> "Whisper of the Heart" I had not seen before. Next week (1/26) is Pom Poko
> about magical shapeshifting Racoons protecting their forest homes form urban
> developement and a more serious anime drama called Only Yesterday about a 27
> year old office lady reminiscing about her childhood and lost dreams while
> visiting her sister's farm.
>
> Hayao Miyazaki is considered to be the "Walt Disney" of Japan, famous for
> animated movies like "Spirited Away"
I saw that one and liked it a lot. Tho I was not sureprised by the twists in it
as it was close to some vary old stories that I had run across. I do not mean
the same story but the same threads in the plot line.
> which won the Academy Award for Best
> Animated Film 2 years ago. He has done several fantasies like Nausicaa of
> the Valley of the Wind,
I liked this one but am not sure that I have seen it in full as I first saw it
as warriers of the wind witch was an eddited vertion that was inported in a
round about matter. But the theams where great and vastly diffrent then the
normal ones.
> Laputa: Castle in the Sky,
Another great one tho I am still trying to understand the world it shows. One
of the better starting of movies and a great rescue bit.
> Howl's Moving Castle,
still trying to find the movie and the book so I can hear them.
> and
> Princess Mononoke
This one I never understood do to the bad translation I got. and from what the
japanese friend said totaly diffrent story when she read the sub titals rather
then lissend to it.
> . More children orientated films like Kiki's Delivery
> Service,
The one with Kiki is one of the best stories I have ever seen or heard. I got
it befor I went blind. What surprises me so much is that there is no realy bad
guy in this story. Normaly that dooms a story but he got it to work with out
any real problums other then wind and the strugle of a girl to understand her
self and her world. If you have not seen this one you should.
> My Neighbor Totoro
Another good one. I give to friends who have young kids.
> and even a pre-WWII Air Pirate film set in
> Fascist Italy called Porco Rosso.
Have not seen or heard of that one.
>
> Almost all of Miyazaki films either star or "co-star" a strong young female
> character (that looks surprisingly the same from film to film, at least to
> me)
The same shape of the face if I remember and often the same voice. but hair
changes color. I think it is the spirt that the characters show that links them
so much.
> and aircraft of one type or another. He is famous for the stunning
> Visual imagery and backgrounds in his films, and the serious subject matters
> covered in many of his films, even those aimed at a younger audience.
Yes he does that but it is the way that he strings them all together so you
don't knotis the theams until you go back looking for them that makes them so
good. he sticks to the story line better then most. In fact I like most of his
better then the disney stuff lately.
>
> I was wondering if anyone had watched any of these films, your opinions of
> them, and how you thought they stacked up compared to films or books like
> "The Hobbit," LotR, Harry Potter, and Narnia?
>
I would put them over all of thoes but the potters. The potters are the only
ones that come close to me. and the main diffrence between them and the potters
is the diffrances in the worlds shown. and as the potters are not done yet I
don't know if the holes remaining will be filled as well as most of the films
>
> Nuki Mouse
> --
> "This is just my opinion, I maybe wrong" D. Miller
> "Defend free speech! Read a banned book today!" unknown.
> "I may not like what you say, but I will defend your right to say it with
> my Life" Voltaire
--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Odo 5435
> Oh, goody, goody! A sub/dub war on a newsgroup that has nothing to do with
> anime!
Anime are not the only films shown in countries that do not speak the
language of the filmmakers. Which group would you suggest to host your
"war"?
richard e white
> Odo 5435 wrote:
>
> <Snip>
>
> > Miyazaki himself prefers dubbed versions of his films as he feels the
> > subtitles detract from the animation. But having only ever seen dubbed
> > versions it would be nice to make my own comparison. Dubbed animation
> > generally works better than in live action films as lip syncing is not
> > so great a problem.
>
> I don't really understand this, because I cannot stand watching a dubbed
> version of a foreign language movie. If the director has gone through
> the trouble of finding appropriate actors for the movie, why abandon
> them for second-rate foreign actors, especially since they usually make
> the dialogue sound corny, and they detract far more from the movie than
> subtitles do. After a few minutes, the subtitles become something of
> second nature, and you hardly realize they are there.
>
> Also, having the original languages helps preserve the flavor of the
> movie--the movies are from a different culture, and as such usually feel
> different than American movies, so why try to assimilate them to
> American tastes? (Speaking as an American; substitute other culture as
> appropriate....)
>
> Andy
But some of us can't use the subtitaled stuff at all.
Christopher Kreuzer
Robinsons <wr...@erols.com> wrote:
<snip>
> It's (the Hobbit) basically a crossover of some sort.
>
> I suppose you will say this makes the animated _ROTK_ anime...
Really? I'd be interested to know how you'd characterise the animated
ROTK from Rankin Bass. Did the same people work on it? Did Japanese
animators work on it?
And while we are at it, does the Bakshi animation of (part of) LotR fit
into any animation tradition?
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Odo 5435
And I didn't intend to start a war. I merely remarked that Hiyazaki
prefers HIS films to be dubbed. To my knowledge, he has never commented
on the sub/dub issue in any other context.
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
> But some of us can't use the subtitaled stuff at all.
Good point. And some of us can't use the dubbed stuff.
So offering both choices should be standard, both in cinemas and on DVD
(and VHS should be thrown in the bin if it can't meet the required
standards of accessibility - though closed captioning is possible on
VHS).
There has been an increase in audio-description screenings and subtitled
screenings in cinemas (at least in the UK), and an increase in
subtitling of DVDs and TV, which does make things more accessible.
One of the other accessibility strands is to have sign language
translation of a film's script. I've seen that on TV, and for theatre
(as well as captioned theatre where the actor's words appear on a screen
above the stage), but I'm not sure how widespread it is for film.
So the sub/dub war should be reduced to a matter of choice for the
individual consumer. Purists should recognise the accessibility issues
involved. Indeed the whole thing about translation is technically how to
let an audience access films in a different language. The quality of the
translation is a different issue, but the methods of accessing the
information are many and varied.
I suppose technically for a film you could have the following:
- Original film and soundtrack (plus dubbed translated versions).
- Subtitled version in original language (plus translations).
- Audio-description version (plus translations).
- Sign language version (plus translations).
Some common combinations would be dubbed translation with translated
subtitles, and dubbed translation with original language subtitles, and
original language soundtrack with original language subtitles (these
last two can help when learning a language).
For some of these you have to get the DVD from a different region, as
the options often vary between DVD regions.
cali...@yahoo.com
Yeah, I can imagine that.
John Harkness
cali...@yahoo.com
Miyazaki, and in part because of the charm of Dunst's performance as
Kiki -- and with dubs as good as those Lasseter directed for Miyazaki,
I'll pick the English version of the cartoon almost every time.
John Harkness
Christopher Kreuzer
> Nuki Mouse wrote:
>> "Derek Janssen" <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:jf-dnfSjyeBtLk_e...@comcast.com...
>> [snip]
>>
>> Nor do I remember you being given the power to determine what groups
>> I can post to, or you being made group moderator of a.f.t. or
>> a.f.h-p. to rule them out of bounds?
The mention of the Rankin Bass Hobbit by Robinsons (and the ensuing
discussion of that) brought it on topic for AFT (and it would have been
on-topic for RABT as well, though I am sure RABT were grateful to avoid
the heavy cross-posting).
> You forgot RAMC-F...Now move it, or we sic the dogs.
The dogs (were they from RAMC-F?) just got eaten by the wargs. We have
Balrogs as well. Winged ones, no less. They are dealing with Beauty's
Beast at the moment, though I think I see King Kong in the distance
bringing up reinforcements for RAMC-F. The boy wizard seems to have gone
AWOL, along with Beauty.
Huh? Is that Peter Jackson I see in King Kong's hand? The forces of AFT
have been completed routed by this unexpected appearance of their
arch-nemesis. They are fleeing in disarray from the battlefield. :-(
Robinsons
> [removed some newsgroups]
>
> Robinsons <wr...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > It's (the Hobbit) basically a crossover of some sort.
> >
> > I suppose you will say this makes the animated _ROTK_ anime...
>
> Really? I'd be interested to know how you'd characterise the animated
> ROTK from Rankin Bass.
RBROTK is...redeemed only by the funky disco
marching song featuring sadomasochistic orcs.
("Where there's a whip, there's a way...")
And I doubt Miyazaki had a hand in the lyrics...
Definitely Rankin-Bass ala "Land of Misfit Toys".
> Did the same people work on it? Did Japanese animators work on it?
Good question. Roddy MacDowell played a cockney Sam Gamgee who
sounded a bit like Steve Irwin or Oliver Twist ("Blimey, Mr. Freydow!!")
And the guy who played C-3P0 had a cameo role as an elf.
Under the influence of the Ring, Sam has an LSD-trip where
he hallucinates World Peace between orcs and hobbits:
all the evil creatures turning into butterflies, etc.
I guess that's a more positive outlook than the other versions
where all must be exterminated!
Clearly Rankin-Bass were a bunch of subvesives, compared to Jackson
and his fascist screenwriter Phillipa Boyens. Crush my calm, oh you
Phillipa Boyens!
> And while we are at it, does the Bakshi animation of (part of) LotR fit
> into any animation tradition?
The tradition of bad animation?
--B.
Christopher Kreuzer
Oops. I see you put AFHP back in. Sorry about that.
>> Robinsons <wr...@erols.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
[Rankin Bass Hobbit]
>>> It's (the Hobbit) basically a crossover of some sort.
>>>
>>> I suppose you will say this makes the animated _ROTK_ anime...
>>
>> Really? I'd be interested to know how you'd characterise the animated
>> ROTK from Rankin Bass.
>
> RBROTK is...redeemed only by the funky disco
> marching song featuring sadomasochistic orcs.
>
> ("Where there's a whip, there's a way...")
>
> And I doubt Miyazaki had a hand in the lyrics...
>
> Definitely Rankin-Bass ala "Land of Misfit Toys".
>
>> Did the same people work on it? Did Japanese animators work on it?
>
> Good question.
<snip>
So that's the voice cast. I looked on IMDb and found more credits,
including that for the animators:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079802/fullcredits
That includes several names that look Japanese to me. But then I know
next to nothing about Japanese animation and whether this means
anything.I suppose clicking on their names would tell me more about what
work they did, but maybe someone recognises the names?
> Under the influence of the Ring, Sam has an LSD-trip where
> he hallucinates World Peace between orcs and hobbits:
> all the evil creatures turning into butterflies, etc.
Oh pfft! I'm going to have to watch that again! :-)
<snip>
>> And while we are at it, does the Bakshi animation of (part of) LotR
>> fit into any animation tradition?
>
> The tradition of bad animation?
Hey! I actually don't think it is that bad. Seriously! :-)
Anyway, the technique was rotoscape animation. The full credits are here
on IMDb:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077869/fullcredits
Doesn't seem to be influenced by any Japanese school of animation. I
can't find any studio name associated with the film - I seem to recall
it would be classed as an independent production by Saul Zaentz. I'm
guessing the animators learnt their trade in the USA, failing any other
clues, or looking more closely at the individual names of the animators.
Changing the subject completely, I found the language option on IMDb,
along with a link to films with Sindarin language in them!
http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/Sindarin/
Obviously the Jackson films. But I don't remember the Bakshi film having
Sindarin in it, unless they mean the "Noro lim! Noro lim!" bit from
Legolas (who replaced Glorfindel in that film), or some bits from
Galadriel.
Hmm. There's more here:
http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/
http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/Klingon/
http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/Latin/
http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/MiddleEnglish/
http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/OldEnglish/
I thought 13th Warrior had OE in it, but maybe not. It's been put under
Latin. And they've left out Quenya, which I think was briefly used in
some of the Jackson films.
Patrick Joseph McNamara
"Fata Morgana" <nunyab...@fool.com> wrote in message
news:xgxAf.15669$Yu....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
>
> "Heather Fieldhouse" <bunny...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
> news:bunnyhugger-0BD5...@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
>> In article <u%tAf.878$MJ.168@fed1read07>,
>> "Fish Eye no Miko" <fis...@deadmoon.circus> wrote:
>>
>>> No, it's not. It was made by am Amercian company for an American
>>> audience.
>>> And please call it "anime".
>>
>> a Japanese outfit. So although everything you say is true, it's a
>> little misleading to characterize it as American animation.
>
> Not really. Most American animation these days is animated in Korea -
> does that make it Korean anime? I don't think so.
>
I think that while traditionally "anime" referred only to Japanese
animation, today it's starting to be used more for a style of animation,
regardless of where it's produced. And if you look at the list of credits on
many shows, there's plenty of Oriental names appearing, even for
non-Oriental productions. So the line between Japanese animation and
animation from the rest of the world is blurring.
Derek Janssen
>>>I am kicking myself for having missed Howl's Moving Castle during it's
>>>regrettably short season at our local theatre and now having to wait
>>>for DVD.
>>
>>Rent the DVD, and give your seat a breather--It t'warn't his best.
>
> And to give you an alternate opinion on the subject, I thought it could be
> ranked among his top three. At the very least, it was spellbinding from
> begining to end, and everyone I brought to see it loved it.
Everyone who hadn't read the Diana Wynne-Jones book loved it.
The rest just watched Hayao throw clever and energetic source material
out the window, just to improvise a garage-sale of recycled bits (eg.
the dark-side arm-bubbling from "Mononoke") from all his earlier
movies...ALL of them.
Derek Janssen (yes, even a villain who looks like the Count of
Cagliostro's sister)
eja...@comcast.net
Derek Janssen
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
>>>I suppose you will say this makes the animated _ROTK_ anime...
>>
>>Really? I'd be interested to know how you'd characterise the animated
>>ROTK from Rankin Bass.
>
> RBROTK is...redeemed only by the funky disco
> marching song featuring sadomasochistic orcs.
>
> ("Where there's a whip, there's a way...")
>
> Definitely Rankin-Bass ala "Land of Misfit Toys".
And, being the only person who remembers ROTK:R-B as being more than a
song (but then, who also remembers "Year Without a Santa Claus" as
having 45 other minutes besides the Heat Miser, too):
R-B grabbed the "Return" rights after it looked like Bakshi wouldn't get
his LOTR: Book II after all--
Unfortunately, Saul Zaentz was still tight-fisted on the rights, and
specified that R-B could make their version, but only on the grounds
that they used such characters and designs as either A) appeared in
their own "Hobbit" (Elrond, Gandalf, etc.), or who were B) necessary to
the book but didn't appear in the Bakshi-used half of "Two Towers" (eg.
a kewl anime Eowen).
The result?--Shh, don't mention Galadriel! Frodo just got the vial from
SOMEWHERE...
("To say anymore would break the spell"--Yeah, the *legal-department*
spell, right, Artie?)
>>Did the same people work on it? Did Japanese animators work on it?
>
> Good question. Roddy MacDowell played a cockney Sam Gamgee who
> sounded a bit like Steve Irwin or Oliver Twist ("Blimey, Mr. Freydow!!")
>
> And the guy who played C-3P0 had a cameo role as an elf.
(Uh, are we talking about MacDowell's Sam in the Rankin-Bass, or Anthony
Daniels' Legolas in the Bakshi?...I'M SO CONFUSED!! 0_0 )
>>And while we are at it, does the Bakshi animation of (part of) LotR fit
>>into any animation tradition?
>
> The tradition of bad animation?
In its day, it worked (mostly due to Peter S. Beagle's user-friendly
Reader's-Digest condensation for beginners)--
Now we're just staring at Billy Barty & Co.'s bad silent-movie
histrionics for the rotoscoping, and realizing that's why we hated Don
Bluth's movies so much, too.
Derek Janssen
eja...@comcast.net
Jette Goldie
> Fata Morgana wrote:
>
>>>>I am kicking myself for having missed Howl's Moving Castle during it's
>>>>regrettably short season at our local theatre and now having to wait
>>>>for DVD.
>>>
>>>Rent the DVD, and give your seat a breather--It t'warn't his best.
>>
>> And to give you an alternate opinion on the subject, I thought it could
>> be ranked among his top three. At the very least, it was spellbinding
>> from begining to end, and everyone I brought to see it loved it.
>
> Everyone who hadn't read the Diana Wynne-Jones book loved it.
>
Apparently Diana enjoyed it.
--
Jette Goldie
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
("reply to" is spamblocked)
Derek Janssen
>>>>>I am kicking myself for having missed Howl's Moving Castle during it's
>>>>>regrettably short season at our local theatre and now having to wait
>>>>>for DVD.
>>>>
>>>>Rent the DVD, and give your seat a breather--It t'warn't his best.
>>>
>>>And to give you an alternate opinion on the subject, I thought it could
>>>be ranked among his top three. At the very least, it was spellbinding
>>>from begining to end, and everyone I brought to see it loved it.
>>
>>Everyone who hadn't read the Diana Wynne-Jones book loved it.
>
> Apparently Diana enjoyed it.
Diana was a GOOD SPORT about it. (Ie., publicly recognizing ahead of
time that Hayao would sail off on his own jazz improvisations, book be
darned.)
...There's a *difference*.
Derek Janssen (who's only keeping it in a.f.h-p since that's where you
find most of the Wynne-Jones experts in the highest concentrations)
eja...@comcast.net
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Derek Janssen" <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:x4SdnVUUA7ytIE7e...@comcast.com...
>> Fata Morgana wrote:
>>
>>>>> I am kicking myself for having missed Howl's Moving Castle during
>>>>> it's regrettably short season at our local theatre and now having
>>>>> to wait for DVD.
>>>>
>>>> Rent the DVD, and give your seat a breather--It t'warn't his best.
>>>
>>> And to give you an alternate opinion on the subject, I thought it
>>> could be ranked among his top three. At the very least, it was
>>> spellbinding from begining to end, and everyone I brought to see it
>>> loved it.
>>
>> Everyone who hadn't read the Diana Wynne-Jones book loved it.
>
> Apparently Diana enjoyed it.
Maybe she hadn't read the book? :-)
[Seriously! Some authors claim not to read their books. Though the claim
that some actors don't watch their films is probably similarly
apocryphal.]
Christopher Kreuzer
Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
<snip>
> R-B grabbed the "Return" rights after it looked like Bakshi wouldn't
> get his LOTR: Book II after all--
> Unfortunately, Saul Zaentz was still tight-fisted on the rights, and
> specified that R-B could make their version, but only on the grounds
> that they used such characters and designs as either A) appeared in
> their own "Hobbit" (Elrond, Gandalf, etc.), or who were B) necessary
> to the book but didn't appear in the Bakshi-used half of "Two Towers"
> (eg. a kewl anime Eowen).
>
> The result?--Shh, don't mention Galadriel! Frodo just got the vial
> from SOMEWHERE...
> ("To say anymore would break the spell"--Yeah, the *legal-department*
> spell, right, Artie?)
Interesting stuff about movies rights there. Thanks. You wouldn't be
able to say what your sources were? Has this been published somewhere?
Do you know whether Saul Zaentz or anyone would have been able to place
similar limitations on the Peter Jackson movies. I've often wondered if
this explains some of what happens. And maybe certain limits could be
placed on future 'Hobbit' movies in relation to the New Line Cinema LotR
("you must use Legolas"; "you must use Saruman again"; "Elrond must have
sparklies").
Anyway, your explanation above certainly helps clarify some of the more
bizarre aspects of the Rankin Bass 'Return of the King'. Thanks.
Invid Fan
Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> richard e white <chip...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > But some of us can't use the subtitaled stuff at all.
>
> Good point. And some of us can't use the dubbed stuff.
>
> So offering both choices should be standard, both in cinemas and on DVD
Usually is, although live action films often aren't dubbed in the US.
> (and VHS should be thrown in the bin if it can't meet the required
> standards of accessibility - though closed captioning is possible on
> VHS).
>
Anime was usually released with both a sub and a dub release. LD's used
closed captioning to subtitle.
--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
Fish Eye no Miko
T'was a joke, my friend. I've been into anime since before DVDs got big,
and have been in my share of sub/dub wars. I was just having a bit of fun.
^_^
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"The more steps we take forward, the longer we see the path is ahead."
-Shou Tucker, _FullMetal Alchemist_
Jette Goldie
> Jette Goldie wrote:
>
>>>>>>I am kicking myself for having missed Howl's Moving Castle during it's
>>>>>>regrettably short season at our local theatre and now having to wait
>>>>>>for DVD.
>>>>>
>>>>>Rent the DVD, and give your seat a breather--It t'warn't his best.
>>>>
>>>>And to give you an alternate opinion on the subject, I thought it could
>>>>be ranked among his top three. At the very least, it was spellbinding
>>>>from begining to end, and everyone I brought to see it loved it.
>>>
>>>Everyone who hadn't read the Diana Wynne-Jones book loved it.
>>
>> Apparently Diana enjoyed it.
>
> Diana was a GOOD SPORT about it. (Ie., publicly recognizing ahead of time
> that Hayao would sail off on his own jazz improvisations, book be darned.)
We weren't talking *publically* at the time.
> ...There's a *difference*.
>
> Derek Janssen (who's only keeping it in a.f.h-p since that's where you
> find most of the Wynne-Jones experts in the highest concentrations)
Uh? I'm in alt.fan.tolkien.
Fish Eye no Miko
> I think that while traditionally "anime" referred only to Japanese
> animation, today it's starting to be used more for a style of
> animation, regardless of where it's produced. And if you look
> at the list of credits on many shows, there's plenty of Oriental
> names appearing, even for non-Oriental productions. So the
> line between Japanese animation and animation from the rest
> of the world is blurring.
This is quite true. _Teen Titans_ has used anime touches since the
beginning (some of the faces, the sweatdrops, etc), And last night's
episode ("Things Change") did a few more subtle things I felt were borrowed
from anime, as well.
Catherine Johnson. Great episode, btw...
--
fenm at dot com
"Take it from El Santo, folks--people who like exotic meat dishes with
secret ingredients are even more dangerous than people whose names are
anagrams of "Dracula'."
-El Santo, from his review of _Shriek of the Mutilated_.
Fish Eye no Miko
> RBROTK is...redeemed only by the funky disco
> marching song featuring sadomasochistic orcs.
> ("Where there's a whip, there's a way...")
"We don't wanna go to war today, but the lord of the lash says 'Nay, nay
nay...'"
Damn you, I'm gonna have that f&*^ing song in my head all day now...
^_^
> Good question. Roddy MacDowell played a cockney Sam Gamgee
> who sounded a bit like Steve Irwin or Oliver Twist ("Blimey, Mr.
> Freydow!!")
It's "McDowall". And AFAIR, he just used his real accent.
> And the guy who played C-3P0 had a cameo role as an elf.
No, that's the Bakshi version you're thinking of.
And his name is Anthony Daniels.
>> And while we are at it, does the Bakshi animation of (part of)
>> LotR fit into any animation tradition?
>
> The tradition of bad animation?
In the words of a Web Site I read: "There are 15 types of animation in
this film--and they all suck."
Catherine Johnson. Bakshi's version of LotR is the only movie I've bought
specifically to make fun of how bad it is.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"If it weren't for the dozens of idiot drivers in front of you, you'd be
home by now."
-Rock station advertisement.
Fish Eye no Miko
> Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
>> Robinsons wrote:
>>
>>> Well, since Miyazaki animated "The Hobbit", one of the
>>> earliest Japanimation flicks,
>>
>> No, it's not. It was made by am Amercian company for an American
>> audience. And please call it "anime".
>
> In other words, "I didn't do it, and it was self defense!"
No, see, I put those two thought on different lines, since they're two
different thoughts.
Whoops, I thought I had.. Sorry..
Those were supposed to be two different thoughts.
> The Hobbit could be characterized as Japanimation, i.e. an
> American film contracted out to Top Craft,
That's not what "Japanimation" means. It's just another word for "anime".
> which was not considered any sort of artistic tradition...or
> you could characterize it as anime in the tradition of later
> films which Miyazaki also had a stronger creative hand in.
> Your choice.
Or I could call it an American cartoon that used a few Japanese animators.
> It is strongly likely that Miyazaki and the other animators
> were the main influence on design (it does not bear any
> resemblance to earlier Rankin-Bass specials produced in
> America)
But is doesn't look like anything I've seen Miyazaki or his animators do,
either (Great, I just pictured Anno Hideko's LotR... O_O. AAHHHH!!!)
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"I'm the impish officer of death."
-Mike Nelson, _Mystery Science Theater 3000_
John VanSickle
When Ghibli makes a short cartoon, is it called a Ghiblet?
Regards,
John
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> Derek Janssen wrote:
>
> > Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> >> Nuki Mouse wrote:
> >>
> >>> That only some elite snob that happen to learn most of these
> >>> foreign idioms should be allowed to enjoy the film, and any
> >>> attempt to adapt it to the new audience scraped because we
> >>> are just the "uninformed undeserving masses?"
> >>
> >> Oh, goody, goody! A sub/dub war on a newsgroup that has
> >> nothing to do with anime!
> >
> > Well, if the OP *was* on an anime group, they'd have given up
> > the S/D wars ten years ago when DVD came out, like all the
> > others...
>
> Yeah, no kidding...
>
> > Derek Janssen (ah, a nostalgic breeze of cluelessness)
>
> <sniff, sniff>
> Smells like... victory?
>
> Catherine Johnson. Either that or Teen Spirit... I always get those
> confused.
> --
You'd avoid that if you'd just stop herding those high school boys! ;)
Laters. =)
STan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ LostRune+sig [at] UofR [dot] net
| ( _| | http://www.uofr.net/~lostrune/
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/\___|__| |__|___| \ ___|
Christopher Kreuzer
> Bakshi's version of LotR is the only movie I've
> bought specifically to make fun of how bad it is.
I bought the three LotR cartoons (Bakshi and Rankin Bass x2) for the
same reasons, to make fun of them. But, after the experience of seeing
the Peter Jackson films, I've come to the conclusion that I am (at least
for the next few years) more inclined to watch the cartoon versions, for
a laugh, than the Peter Jackson ones. It is painful to watch the bits
that are ludicrous in the Peter Jackson films, precisely because, a few
minutes later, there will be a bit that works really well. Continuously
mediocre, or continuously hilariously bad, is better than good one
moment, bad the next.
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
> That's not what "Japanimation" means. It's just another word for
> "anime".
How do you pronounce it? Ja-pan-i-mation, or Jap-an-i-mation?
Oh, here we go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime#Terminology
Something about Japanimation there, and the history of the word anime.
Seems like animation was transliterated into Japanese, abbreviated, and
then transliterated back into English. And there is also a claim that
Japanimation is now used to refer to domestic anime in Japan:
"Anime once bore the popular name Japanimation, but this term has fallen
into disuse. It saw the most usage during the 1970s and 1980s, which
broadly comprise the first and second waves of anime fandom. The term
survived at least into the early 1990s but seemed to fade away shortly
before the mid-1990s anime resurgence. In general, the term now only
appears in nostalgic contexts. The term Japanimation is much more
commonly used in Japan to refer to domestic animation. Since anime or
animeshon is used to describe all forms of animation, Japanimation is
meant to distinguish Japanese work from that of the rest of the world."
> (Great, I just pictured Anno Hideko's LotR... O_O. AAHHHH!!!)
What did you see? :-)
Jay G.
> Derek Janssen wrote:
>
>>> Well, since Miyazaki animated "The Hobbit", one of the
>>> earliest Japanimation flicks, it's not OT for alt.fan.tolkien.
>>
>> Um, *noooooo*...
>>
>> SOME animators who worked for Rankin-Bass between "Hobbit" and "Last
>> Unicorn" (but before "Thundercats") went on to create Studio Ghibli, but
>> that's it--
>> Miyazaki himself was busy animating directing at least three other TV
>> series during that period, and never got off the continent.
>
> The Hobbit was animated by Top Craft in Japan. The animation was
> entirely exported to Top Craft.
Derek never said otherwise. He was pointing out that Miyazaki wasn't
involved at all, contrary to the original post.
-Jay
Derek Janssen
> What I wanna know:
>
> When Ghibli makes a short cartoon, is it called a Ghiblet?
Nope:
http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/ghiblies/
(And it might be, if the GH was pronounced soft, but, as Italians love
to point out, Hayao got the hard-GH *wrong*.)
Derek Janssen (did you HONESTLY think you were the first to think this
up?...No, really)
eja...@comcast.net
Derek Janssen
> Fish Eye no Miko <fis...@deadmoon.circus> wrote:
>
>>Bakshi's version of LotR is the only movie I've
>>bought specifically to make fun of how bad it is.
>
> I bought the three LotR cartoons (Bakshi and Rankin Bass x2) for the
> same reasons, to make fun of them. But, after the experience of seeing
> the Peter Jackson films, I've come to the conclusion that I am (at least
> for the next few years) more inclined to watch the cartoon versions, for
> a laugh, than the Peter Jackson ones. It is painful to watch the bits
> that are ludicrous in the Peter Jackson films, precisely because, a few
> minutes later, there will be a bit that works really well.
Bakshi's Galadriel sadly laughing off her temptation of the Ring makes a
LOT more book-sense than Jackson's little burst of neat-o SFX...
But that's about it for improvements.
Derek Janssen (and as for Aragorn, if only we could've gotten a Viggo
Mortensen as good as John Hurt's voice)
eja...@comcast.net
Nuki Mouse
news:_1SAf.11412$ZA2....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> What I wanna know:
>
> When Ghibli makes a short cartoon, is it called a Ghiblet?
Actually, they're called Ghiblies. :-)
http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/ghiblies/
Nuki Mouse
--
"This is just my opinion, I maybe wrong" D. Miller
"Defend free speech! Read a banned book today!" unknown.
"I may not like what you say, but I will defend your right to say it with
my Life" Voltaire
Fish Eye no Miko
> Fish Eye no Miko <fis...@deadmoon.circus> wrote:
>
>> That's not what "Japanimation" means. It's just another word
>> for "anime".
>
> How do you pronounce it? Ja-pan-i-mation, or Jap-an-i-mation?
The first one is the one I've heard the most.
> Oh, here we go:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime#Terminology
> Something about Japanimation there, and the history of the word
> anime. Seems like animation was transliterated into Japanese,
> abbreviated, and then transliterated back into English.
I've heard it's taken from the French... <shrug>
> And there is also a claim that Japanimation is now used to refer
> to domestic anime in Japan:
I believe this is the case.
> "Anime once bore the popular name Japanimation, but this term
> has fallen into disuse. It saw the most usage during the 1970s and
> 1980s, which broadly comprise the first and second waves of
> anime fandom.
Ah, the dark days. I didn't become a fan until the mid 90's. Though I did
see _Vampire Hunter D_ on TV in the 80's (remember USA'S "Night Flight"?),
and I watched _Battle of the Planets_, which is taken from the 70's anime
_Gatchaman_. The first anime I watched as anime (and subtitled) was
_Sailor Moon_.
> The term survived at least into the early 1990s but seemed
> to fade away shortly before the mid-1990s anime resurgence.
Yeah.. But the time I was a fan, people were using "anime".
> In general, the term now only appears in nostalgic contexts. The
> term Japanimation is much more commonly used in Japan to
> refer to domestic animation. Since anime or animeshon is used
> to describe all forms of animation, Japanimation is meant to
> distinguish Japanese work from that of the rest of the world."
Yeah, I've heard this. In Japan, even something like _The Simpsons_ would
be considered anime.
>> (Great, I just pictured Anno Hideko's LotR... O_O. AAHHHH!!!)
>
> What did you see? :-)
I... don't know... O_O
Catherine Johnson, who really wishes Anno would just go to therapy like a
normal person... ^_^.
--
fenm at cox dot net
Fish Eye no Miko
> John VanSickle wrote:
>
>> What I wanna know:
>>
>> When Ghibli makes a short cartoon, is it called a Ghiblet?
>
> Nope:
> http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/ghiblies/
> (And it might be, if the GH was pronounced soft, but, as Italians
> love to point out, Hayao got the hard-GH *wrong*.)
They actually talk about this on an extra on the Nausicaa DVD. Oops.
> Derek Janssen (did you HONESTLY think you were the first to think
> this up?...No, really)
Hey, I've been in anime fandom for about a decade and I've never heard it
before.
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
Right now you are reading my .sig quote.
Morgil
> http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/
>
> http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/Klingon/
> http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/Latin/
> http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/MiddleEnglish/
> http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/OldEnglish/
>
> I thought 13th Warrior had OE in it, but maybe not. It's been put under
> Latin. And they've left out Quenya, which I think was briefly used in
> some of the Jackson films.
Omar Sharif's character and one of the vikings communicate
in Latin. The other vikings speak in some scandic language,
which I guess is supposed to be Old Norse or whatever.
Morgil
Nuki Mouse
news:z_SdnThNAvM...@comcast.com...
[snip]
>> So the opinion of the very Director that made the films in question
>> doesn't matter? Miyazaki had complete oversight in both the choice of
>> voice actors and their dialog.
>
> Right, and he chose to make the movie in Japanese and with Japanese voice
> actors. :-)
No, he "chose" Japanese because he is Japanese and Japan is his primary
audience.
If he lived in Norway, I'm sure he'd use Norwegian. The *reason* he use
Japanese was he wanted to use the native langauge of his audience, and not
subject them to not knowing the dialog and having to read subtitles.
> OK, he had control over the American actors, but his primary vision
> involved the Japanese, and I would prefer to see the movies as close as
> possible to his primary vision of them.
As an animator, his primary vision is mainly shown through the visual
artwork of his films not that they are in Japanese. I hated the 1st dub of
Nausicaa (Warriors of the Wind) primarily because they cut out 1/3 of the
film, as well as completely rewrite the dialog. That is something hasn't
happen in the Disney dubs.
> I find that subtitles are the best way for me to do this, because they do
> not detract from the movie, and they preserve as much of the original as
> possible. In most movies, the characters are the most important part of
> the movie, and the voice acting is one of the most defining aspects of the
> character.
True, but how do you tell what word was emphasized, or that part of
statement was rhetorical or satire if it is in another language? Take the
statement "Do you think that will happen one day" Place heavy emphasis on
"that" and it is a snide or rhetorical remark, but if on the very next word
"will" it becomes a hopeful question. What you seem to forget is Miyazaki
used Japanese because it was the language his audience understands. Do you
think he thought, "well they're just a bunch of gaijins, so I'll just drop
the idea of adapting my movies so that they too can see (hear) it in their
native language like I meant my movie to be heard.
> [Snip long list of famous, first-rate English-speaking voice actors]
>
> OK, you also get a lot of famous Americans to dub some movies. Regardless,
> I think the quality of a lot of the dubbing is just bad (although I admit
> I am basing this on only a few examples, since I usually don't watch dubs,
> so there may well be many well-dubbed movies).
How can you judge dubs inferior if you haven't seen many lately? 10 years
or more ago, most dubs WERE amateurish, with bad translations where the
voice actors did even know what the scene was about or character's
motivation. Some are still made that way if they company just wants to get
an anime on the American market quickly, but these are usually porn or bad
quality anime to begin with.
Try watching the dubs of Porco Rosso or Cowboy Bebob and then see if your
opinion of dubs might change.
> And I find it disturbing that the Japanese actors who made the movies, and
> are responsible for their success are so often trivialized.
Not in Japan were they live, they are quite famous. Much more so then
American voice actors are in the US, unless they happen to be famous for
something else, like Kasey Kasem. (Mel Blanc being one of the few
exceptions) Everyone knows Kasey is a famous radio announcer but did you
know that for 30 years he was the voice of Shaggy in all those Scooby-Doo
cartoons, and many other cartoon characters?
> For example, the DVD case for my copy of Princess Mononoke makes it sound
> like it is a typical American movie--advertising Claire Danes, Minnie
> Driver, et al and the cast of "hot Hollywood stars". You have to look at
> the small print details to even see Miyazaki's name.
I own 2 different Versions of PM, VHS and DVD, and on both the name Hiyao
Miyazaki appears in bold typeface at least twice as big as most of the rest
of the typeface used on the box or case. It is also shown exactly the same
way film credits for the Director or Producer is shown on the DVD case of
any American made movie.
> The "Special Features" box lists: "Featurette," "Theatrical Trailer," and
> "French Language Track." They say there is a French track, but they don't
> say *anything* about a Japanese track! That makes no sense!
Look in the box under that one were it says Technical Specs, on my DVD it
has "Original Japanese Soundtrack" listed there. Besides if I know a DVD is
an anime, I also know that there normally is a Japanese soundtrack even if
the packaging doesn't mention it.
> When you go into the menu on the DVD, under "spoken languages," you can
> choose between English, French, and Japanese. If you didn't already know
> ahead of time, you would have no idea that the movie was originally
> Japanese.
OH, THE HORROR OF IT! That someone might like a Ghibli film solely because
it is a good movie, and not because it is Japanese.
>>>especially since they usually make the dialogue sound corny, and they
>>>detract far more from the movie than subtitles do.
>>
>> And many times this is due to a bad or too literal translation, which
>> will still show up as a bad translation in subtitles as well.
>
> I think it is less jarring when it is in the subtitles. When you can hear
> them talking, it sounds more natural, probably because you can't
> understand what they are saying anyway--you are more aware that you are
> watching a product of another culture and can accept unusual figures of
> speech as just part of that culture.
So reading a cultural euphorism for 'bad luck is on its way' like "I think
the north wind is starting to blow" that you might not understand is better
then hearing a dub were the character said "a black cat just crossed your
path" instead? In Japan, none of those "figures of speech" are unusual, but
common everyday phrases or wording. Again why should a movie have to be
made harder to understand or interpret just because it was originally in
Japanese when the artistic vision of the maker was NOT to make the movie
hard to understand in the first place?
> When they are speaking in English, you lose some of that sense of
> other-ness, and it makes such things stand out more. But that may just be
> me.
Of all the arguements for subtitles, "other-ness" is the one I least
understand. Miyazaki or any other Japanese anime maker did not use Japanese
to because it gave the his work a sense of other-ness. For that he used the
imagery of the film. If he wanted to convey a sense of other-ness via the
language, he would have used a diffrent language for the original instead of
Japanese.
Studio GAINAX made a famous Anime called "Wings of Honneamise." It was set
in a rich "art-deco" alternate world that looked like Japan in many ways but
was not. In that anime, GAINAX invented a whole new "Language" for the
movie voice actors to speak, then subtitled it in Japanese so to emphases
the "other-worldliness" of the film, and as such that movie SHOULD be seen
only as a Sub in English. But Studio Ghibli never used Japanese solely to
make their movies seem "other-ness" to their audiences.
Although there are some distinctly Japanese anime where the Japanese setting
is very important to the film and removing it damages the film. Princess
Mononoke is one such, which is why I consider the dub to be only fair. But
it is a hard film to understand for many in its sub form as well, so it is a
trade off between a only fair dub to a culturally specific sub.
> [snip]
>
>>>Also, having the original languages helps preserve the flavor of the
>>>movie--
>>
>> Oh yes, watching Porco Rosso in the original Japanese maintains that
>> Italian Villa/Mediterranean Sea flair of the movie so well.
>
> No less so than watching it in English.
THATS THE POINT. If Miyazaki was going for some special "flavor" via the
language, he would have made it in Italian and used Japanese subtitles. The
fact he didn't use it shows he thought the atmosphere of the film was best
portrayed though the imagery. Why should a film with not one Japanese
character set in Italy need to have a Japanese flavor to it?
Or one set in Northern Europe (Kiki)
Or ones set in the far future/ other words (Nausicaa, Laputa)
BTW, Miyazaki thought the BEST version of Porco Rosso was the French
Language one, he thought its dialog, wording, and voice acting was better
then his original Japanese soundtrack. But then again he was just the
writer, director and producer, so what does his opinion count for?
>>>the movies are from a different culture, and as such usually feel
>>>different than American movies, so why try to assimilate them to American
>>>tastes? (Speaking as an American; substitute other culture as
>>>appropriate....)
>>
>> So seeing a foreign film should be difficult experience, between reading
>> subtitles, badly translated cultural idioms and dialog, and filled with
>> culture specific icons, phrases and imagery that just leave the viewer
>> confused?
>
> Dubbing it only removes one thing from that list--the one that, for most
> people, is the most trivial. Regardless of whether you sub or dub, these
> problems of translation remain. You are bringing in other issues that are
> not related to the point you are debating, and that is an inappropriate
> method of argumentation.
No, subtitles of a foreign film are normally a very literal translation of
the language into English. When a good quality dub is made, many of the
idioms or phrases are swapped for similar ones in English that the American
audience can understand, plus sometime a bit of new dialog explaining an
icon can be inserted without damaging the atmosphere or pace of the movie.
Like "pager" or "beeper" for "pocket bell," and "massage parlor" for "soap
land."
>> That only some elite snob that happen to learn most of these foreign
>> idioms should be allowed to enjoy the film, and any attempt to adapt it
>> to the new audience scraped because we are just the "uninformed
>> undeserving masses?"
>
> That is no more elitist than to think that Americans (or other English
> speaking people) should not care about other cultures, or that they
> shouldn't have to learn anything about those cultures to enjoy the fruits
> of them.
I never said Americans should not learn or care about Japanese culture, nor
disagree that learning more about a culture might make their movies more
enjoyable, just that dubbing them into English if done properly does not
(IMO) either destory the culture in them, or keeps someone from learning
more about a culture. A tea service is still a tea service whether the film
is dubbed or not.
> All translations must make sacrifices to accommodate the new audience--the
> degree to which such changes should be made is debatable. We could
> discuss the relative merits of a more literal translation versus a freer
> translation, but we must acknowledge that dubbing and subbing are
> immaterial to that.
No really, not by the way they are normally used. Once again, Subs normally
give a more literal translation of the dialog you are hearing in Japanese,
while the Dubs more easily adapt the dialog to the English audience.
> Personally, I think that learning more about the other culture is more
> rewarding, both in terms of enjoying the products of it and in terms of
> broadening my general perspectives, so I prefer translations that maintain
> some of the cultural idiosyncrasies, although I recognize that some
> compromises must be made, especially in matters of language, grammar, and
> syntax--presenting an English version that means the same thing to its
> readers/listeners that the original version meant to its
> readers/listeners. Figures of speech and things for which there are no
> direct English counterparts present the problem--whether you translate
> them literally or whether you translate them to an English figure of
> speech that means the same thing. Also, whether you give someone's name
> as, say, Shinji Ikari or Ikari Shinji. I would be more inclined to err on
> the side of presenting such things closer to the Japanese form--yes that
> makes it harder for Americans to understand, but people can usually work
> out the meaning from context, and I think it enriches the experience.
I have to pretty much agree with all the above, save the last statement. I
think that anything that can be done to make a anime more understandable and
enjoyable to the average American should be done, unless it somehow destroys
the plot, message or feel of the anime while doing so.
One last thing, I have been playing somewhat of a Devil's Advocate. I have
a VERY good understanding of Japanese culture and icons, and do watch my
amine in both Sub and Dub forms, but I also have friends that love many of
my anime (especially Ghibli films and The Slayers TV series) and only like
the dubbed soundtracks on them. However if given a choice of watching just
the sub, or just the dub of a new anime I will normally choose the dub
unless informed it is really bad.
Bryce Utting
>>> Everyone who hadn't read the Diana Wynne-Jones book loved it.
>>
>> Apparently Diana enjoyed it.
>
> Maybe she hadn't read the book? :-)
>
> [Seriously! Some authors claim not to read their books. Though the claim
> that some actors don't watch their films is probably similarly
> apocryphal.]
Malcolm McDowell is -very- up-front about seeing few of his films, and
given his workrate and the reasons he's usually cast it's an entirely
credible claim.
(he's even more up-front about what he thinks about them!)
butting
--
I am very new to programming drivers so if I sound un-knowledgeable
then it's because I am.
-- first4internet's Ceri Coburn on writing Sony's DRM rootkit
Fata Morgana
> Fata Morgana wrote:
>
>>>>I am kicking myself for having missed Howl's Moving Castle during it's
>>>>regrettably short season at our local theatre and now having to wait
>>>>for DVD.
>>>
>>>Rent the DVD, and give your seat a breather--It t'warn't his best.
>>
>> And to give you an alternate opinion on the subject, I thought it could
>> be ranked among his top three. At the very least, it was spellbinding
>> from begining to end, and everyone I brought to see it loved it.
>
Wrong again. I read the book first, then saw the movie. I was able to
appreciate the movie in a completely different way from the book; in fact, I
don't really consider the two related, which is probably the key to enjoying
it if you loved the book(s) as much as I did. Two separate universes
involving characters that just happened to have the same names and similar
histories.
- Mary P.
--
http://www.jazzmess.com - a viewers' guide to Cowboy Bebop
http://www.jazzmess.com/dream - my little dream
Patrick Joseph McNamara
"Morgil" <more...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dr1bt3$v0u$1...@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
Norse and Latin were root languages of English so they would sound similar.
Robinsons
> >> Really? I'd be interested to know how you'd characterise the animated
> >> ROTK from Rankin Bass.
> >
> > RBROTK is...redeemed only by the funky disco
> > marching song featuring sadomasochistic orcs.
> >
> > ("Where there's a whip, there's a way...")
> >
> > And I doubt Miyazaki had a hand in the lyrics...
> >
> > Definitely Rankin-Bass ala "Land of Misfit Toys".
> >
> >> Did the same people work on it? Did Japanese animators work on it?
> >
> > Good question.
>
> <snip>
>
> So that's the voice cast. I looked on IMDb and found more credits,
> including that for the animators:
>
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079802/fullcredits
>
> That includes several names that look Japanese to me. But then I know
> next to nothing about Japanese animation and whether this means
> anything.I suppose clicking on their names would tell me more about what
> work they did, but maybe someone recognises the names?
>
> > Under the influence of the Ring, Sam has an LSD-trip where
> > he hallucinates World Peace between orcs and hobbits:
> > all the evil creatures turning into butterflies, etc.
>
> Oh pfft! I'm going to have to watch that again! :-)
>
> <snip>
>
> >> And while we are at it, does the Bakshi animation of (part of) LotR
> >> fit into any animation tradition?
> >
> > The tradition of bad animation?
>
> Hey! I actually don't think it is that bad. Seriously! :-)
Rotoscoping can definitely be beautiful if done right,
have you seen the Richard Linklater movie "Waking Life"?
but Bakshi ran out of money and he relied a bit to heavily on live actors
and the only "traditionally animated" characters were the gadawful hobbits.
And everyone has Misro's (Middle Earth Afros)!
I half expected Saruman to alert his troops to comb the desert (cue orc:
"Man, we ain't found shit!")
> Anyway, the technique was rotoscape animation. The full credits are here
> on IMDb:
>
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077869/fullcredits
>
> Doesn't seem to be influenced by any Japanese school of animation. I
> can't find any studio name associated with the film - I seem to recall
> it would be classed as an independent production by Saul Zaentz. I'm
> guessing the animators learnt their trade in the USA, failing any other
> clues, or looking more closely at the individual names of the animators.
>
> Changing the subject completely, I found the language option on IMDb,
> along with a link to films with Sindarin language in them!
>
> http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/Sindarin/
>
> Obviously the Jackson films. But I don't remember the Bakshi film having
> Sindarin in it, unless they mean the "Noro lim! Noro lim!" bit from
> Legolas (who replaced Glorfindel in that film), or some bits from
> Galadriel.
>
> Hmm. There's more here:
>
> http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/
>
> http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/Klingon/
> http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/Latin/
> http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/MiddleEnglish/
> http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Languages/OldEnglish/
>
> I thought 13th Warrior had OE in it, but maybe not. It's been put under
> Latin. And they've left out Quenya, which I think was briefly used in
> some of the Jackson films.
Cue Sindarin sub/dub flame war? I refuse to watch the Jackson films
until they are distributed in the original language -- Sindarin. Bad
English voice actors (Liv Tyler? Elijah Wood?) don't cut it! Actual
Sindarin speakers must be used!
--B/.
Derek Janssen
>>
>>>>And while we are at it, does the Bakshi animation of (part of) LotR
>>>>fit into any animation tradition?
>>>
> and the only "traditionally animated" characters were the gadawful hobbits.
Actually, they were rotoscoped too--
"Willow" survivors can spot ever-mugging Billy Barty as the live model
for Sam and Bilbo...Not knowing too many other midget actors by heart, I
can't speak for the others, but that one was particularly distracting.
Derek Janssen (and, ironically, the Little community protested why Peter
Jackson *didn't* use any for his hobbits)
eja...@comcast.net
Robinsons
> Actually, they were rotoscoped too--
> "Willow" survivors can spot ever-mugging Billy Barty as the live model
> for Sam and Bilbo...Not knowing too many other midget actors by heart, I
> can't speak for the others, but that one was particularly distracting.
No wonder people hated Billy Barty so much when he did Willow,
an otherwise unassuming fantasy flick... It was hatred for
Bakshi's Sam.
You'll notice nobody hates Roddy MacDowall, despite his ridiculous accent!
> Derek Janssen (and, ironically, the Little community protested why Peter
> Jackson *didn't* use any for his hobbits)
> eja...@comcast.net
Why the hell did he use midget actors for *rotoscoping*??? Talk about
not understanding filmmaking technique. Didn't he ever hear of compositing
in different elements into the same frame? Is that why the Balrog has
fuzzy slippers?
Invid Fan
<donn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> > Andrew F. Donnell wrote:
> >
> >>especially since they usually make the dialogue sound corny,
> >
> > Listen to the _FullMetal Alchemist_, _Cowboy Bebop_, or _Trigun_ dubs and
> > say that.
>
> Well, I haven't seen any _Full Metal Alchemist_ or _Trigun_, but with
> _Cowbody Bebop_ it just wouldn't be right: I've already watched the
> series in Japanese, so I'd think "who are these people! these aren't the
> right characters!" Same thing happened when I first watched _Neon
> Genesis Evangelion_--we were about half way through the series (in
> Japanese) when my friend had only a dubbed version of the next tape, and
> it was just hard to listen to because the voices coming out of the
> characters were not the same ones we had come to know and love--it was
> like imposters had taken over their bodies.
>
Do you have the same feeling when watching two productions of the same
play wtih different casts?
--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
Robinsons
>
> > RBROTK is...redeemed only by the funky disco
> > marching song featuring sadomasochistic orcs.
> > ("Where there's a whip, there's a way...")
>
> "We don't wanna go to war today, but the lord of the lash says 'Nay, nay
> nay...'"
> Damn you, I'm gonna have that f&*^ing song in my head all day now...
> ^_^
>
> > Good question. Roddy MacDowell played a cockney Sam Gamgee
> > who sounded a bit like Steve Irwin or Oliver Twist ("Blimey, Mr.
> > Freydow!!")
>
> It's "McDowall". And AFAIR, he just used his real accent.
>
> specifically to make fun of how bad it is.
Imagine if Rankin-Bass had run out of money ALSO!
(which they did, shortly thereafter:)
Frodo: "We're in luck! He thinks we're orcs!"
Rowdy Sammy MacDowall: "LUCK? Good suh, we gonna be mahchin' wit da
whole BLINKIN' ARMY back to Seerith Ungol where we storted from!!11!!"
Narrator: And So They Did.
THE END
(cue orc marching song... AGAIN!)
Derek Janssen
>
>>Actually, they were rotoscoped too--
>>"Willow" survivors can spot ever-mugging Billy Barty as the live model
>>for Sam and Bilbo...Not knowing too many other midget actors by heart, I
>>can't speak for the others, but that one was particularly distracting.
>
> No wonder people hated Billy Barty so much when he did Willow,
> an otherwise unassuming fantasy flick... It was hatred for
> Bakshi's Sam.
(Nooo, it was hatred for a very pre-"Menace" Lucas actually trying to
persuade us that this really *was* going to be his Next Big Thing, and
that @(*&%!! 80's "baby-movie" obsession of the era didn't help matters
any either...
IIRC, Barty was one of the few who emerged with dignity unscathed.)
> You'll notice nobody hates Roddy MacDowall, despite his ridiculous accent!
Uh, that's 'cause he was in the Rankin-Bass, and (as earlier
demonstrated) nobody ever remembers anything from that except the one
song...
>>(and, ironically, the Little community protested why Peter
>>Jackson *didn't* use any for his hobbits)
>
> Why the hell did he use midget actors for *rotoscoping*??? Talk about
> not understanding filmmaking technique. Didn't he ever hear of compositing
> in different elements into the same frame?
Hey, cut Ralph some slack--
A year earlier, he was still doing his lame Fritz counter-culture
shticks for "Wizards", and we were amazed enough that he could now be
disciplined enough to do *plot*, let alone take it seriously like
grownups do...
Derek Janssen (granted, it never got any better *after* that)
eja...@comcast.net
Christopher Kreuzer
> (and, ironically, the Little community protested why
> Peter Jackson *didn't* use any for his hobbits)
I thought he did? Each of the hobbit, IIRC, had small doubles to be used
in some scenes, and there was a tall bloke to do the same the other way
round as well.
Raven
news:9V6Bf.4995$ve.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Norse and Latin were root languages of English so they would sound
similar.
Old English was a root language of English. Modern English has imported
several Norse words (such as "husband" and "take"), and later several more
Latin words, either directly or through French. As basic kinships go,
English is much closer to Norse than to Latin, sharing a much more recent
ancestor language.
Hrafn.
Nuki Mouse
news:pAbBf.6663$wl....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Nope, LotR was all "little people" free IIRC. It was a mixture of creative
filming and camera angles, dual sized props, and green screens. Although I
do remember that they did use several CHILDREN dressed up to look like
Pippen and Merry for some horse back riding scenes. Little people could be
used because their body shape and limb lenths didn't match the actors.
Kip Williams
> Robinsons wrote:
>
>>
>>> Actually, they were rotoscoped too--
>>> "Willow" survivors can spot ever-mugging Billy Barty as the live model
>>> for Sam and Bilbo...Not knowing too many other midget actors by heart, I
>>> can't speak for the others, but that one was particularly distracting.
>>
>> No wonder people hated Billy Barty so much when he did Willow, an
>> otherwise unassuming fantasy flick... It was hatred for Bakshi's Sam.
I never saw it all the way through, but there was a part early on that I
liked. It went more or less like this:
Somebody: What do we do now, O Wizard?
(Wizard impressively conjures up a bird.)
Wizard: Follow the bird!
Somebody: It's flying back toward town.
Wizard: Forget the bird. Follow the river!
...
> Hey, cut Ralph some slack--
> A year earlier, he was still doing his lame Fritz counter-culture
> shticks for "Wizards", and we were amazed enough that he could now be
> disciplined enough to do *plot*, let alone take it seriously like
> grownups do...
If he had a template, he could follow it sometimes.
> (granted, it never got any better *after* that)
Wellll... the New Mighty Mouse was better than anything else he did.
Kip W
Fata Morgana
"Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message
news:EQcBf.151$Lj3...@news.get2net.dk...
Perhaps, but when I was taking Latin in school we were told that 40% of the
words in English had Latin roots.
Patrick Joseph McNamara
"Robinsons" <wr...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:43D52C57...@erols.com...
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>> >> And while we are at it, does the Bakshi animation of (part of) LotR
>> >> fit into any animation tradition?
>> >
>> > The tradition of bad animation?
>>
>> Hey! I actually don't think it is that bad. Seriously! :-)
>
>
> Rotoscoping can definitely be beautiful if done right,
>
> have you seen the Richard Linklater movie "Waking Life"?
>
> but Bakshi ran out of money and he relied a bit to heavily on live actors
> and the only "traditionally animated" characters were the gadawful
> hobbits.
>
Nowadays there's many studios using motion capture the same way. I'm sure if
Bakshi had CG, he'd be doing the same thing.
Derek Janssen
>
>>but Bakshi ran out of money and he relied a bit to heavily on live actors
>>and the only "traditionally animated" characters were the gadawful
>>hobbits.
>
> Nowadays there's many studios using motion capture the same way. I'm sure if
> Bakshi had CG, he'd be doing the same thing.
He did, back when he had an HBO series, and just animated Sorayama
sexy-robot pictures.
Derek Janssen (and that was...pretty much *it*, really, after "Cool World")
eja...@comcast.net
Invid Fan
Donnell <donn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Invid Fan wrote:
>
> > In article <Hfmdnbl6npj...@comcast.com>, Andrew F. Donnell
> > <donn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Well, I haven't seen any _Full Metal Alchemist_ or _Trigun_, but with
> >>_Cowbody Bebop_ it just wouldn't be right: I've already watched the
> >>series in Japanese, so I'd think "who are these people! these aren't the
> >>right characters!" Same thing happened when I first watched _Neon
> >>Genesis Evangelion_--we were about half way through the series (in
> >>Japanese) when my friend had only a dubbed version of the next tape, and
> >>it was just hard to listen to because the voices coming out of the
> >>characters were not the same ones we had come to know and love--it was
> >>like imposters had taken over their bodies.
> >>
> >
> > Do you have the same feeling when watching two productions of the same
> > play wtih different casts?
>
> If the actors are the same, but other people's voices are coming out of
> their mouths, then yes.
>
From the seats I can afford, if the costums are the same I can't
visually tell the difference :)
I consider dubs to be adaptations, and enjoy them as such. Sometimes
they're better then the original, sometimes worse.
Michael O'Neill
>
> Turner Classic Movies has been running 2 or 3 Hayao Miyazaki directed films
> every Thursday night in January along with several other Studio Ghibli
> movies he wrote, first in English then later that night in subtitled
> Japanese. I was particularly glad to see the Japanese subtitled version of
> "Whisper of the Heart" I had not seen before. Next week (1/26) is Pom Poko
> about magical shapeshifting Racoons protecting their forest homes form urban
> developement and a more serious anime drama called Only Yesterday about a 27
> year old office lady reminiscing about her childhood and lost dreams while
> visiting her sister's farm.
>
> Hayao Miyazaki is considered to be the "Walt Disney" of Japan, famous for
> animated movies like "Spirited Away" which won the Academy Award for Best
> Animated Film 2 years ago. He has done several fantasies like Nausicaa of
> the Valley of the Wind, Laputa: Castle in the Sky, Howl's Moving Castle, and
> Princess Mononoke. More children orientated films like Kiki's Delivery
> Service, My Neighbor Totoro and even a pre-WWII Air Pirate film set in
> Fascist Italy called Porco Rosso.
>
> Almost all of Miyazaki films either star or "co-star" a strong young female
> character (that looks surprisingly the same from film to film, at least to
> me) and aircraft of one type or another. He is famous for the stunning
> Visual imagery and backgrounds in his films, and the serious subject matters
> covered in many of his films, even those aimed at a younger audience.
>
> I was wondering if anyone had watched any of these films, your opinions of
> them, and how you thought they stacked up compared to films or books like
> "The Hobbit," LotR, Harry Potter, and Narnia?
>
> Nuki Mouse
> --
> "This is just my opinion, I maybe wrong" D. Miller
> "Defend free speech! Read a banned book today!" unknown.
> "I may not like what you say, but I will defend your right to say it with
> my Life" Voltaire
"Princess" is on the list to view.
Time and work wait for no man.
:-)
M.
Robinsons
> I never saw it all the way through, but there was a part early on that I
> liked. It went more or less like this:
>
> Somebody: What do we do now, O Wizard?
> (Wizard impressively conjures up a bird.)
> Wizard: Follow the bird!
> Somebody: It's flying back toward town.
> Wizard: Forget the bird. Follow the river!
Yeah, that felt like a Mel Brooks routine featuring Yogurt.
(As did Billy Crystal's Wizard in _The Princess Bride_)
Nuki Mouse
news:WYGdna0J5Ky...@comcast.com...
> Nuki Mouse wrote:
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:pAbBf.6663$wl....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>>
>>>Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> (and, ironically, the Little community protested why
>>>>Peter Jackson *didn't* use any for his hobbits)
>>>
>>>I thought he did? Each of the hobbit, IIRC, had small doubles to be used
>>>in some scenes, and there was a tall bloke to do the same the other way
>>>round as well.
>>
>> Nope, LotR was all "little people" free IIRC. It was a mixture of
>> creative filming and camera angles, dual sized props, and green screens.
>> Although I do remember that they did use several CHILDREN dressed up to
>> look like Pippen and Merry for some horse back riding scenes. Little
>> people could be used because their body shape and limb lenths didn't
>> match the actors.
>
> think they were children). And it is true that they didn't exactly match
> the actors--they say they only used them in cases where you can't tell,
> but in some cases I don't think it worked (example, beginning of
> Fellowship, Frodo is jumping off a grassy bank into Gandalf's lap, and it
> just looks wrong).
>
> It's in a documentary on the last disc of FOTR (one of the better of many
> great documentaries).
That might be right, I only remember that in another of the extremely
numerous documentaries, interviews, and sound-bites that flood everywhere
when RotK came out, that the actors who played Pippin and Merry commented on
Peter Jackson using 2 children as doubles for them in some horseback riding
scenes where "they" rode double behind someone.
Jette Goldie
"Fata Morgana" <nunyab...@fool.com> wrote in message
news:pudBf.16082$Yu....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
>
> "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message
> news:EQcBf.151$Lj3...@news.get2net.dk...
>> "Patrick Joseph McNamara" <writer...@yahoo.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>> news:9V6Bf.4995$ve.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>>
>>> Norse and Latin were root languages of English so they would sound
>> similar.
>>
>> Old English was a root language of English. Modern English has
>> imported
>> several Norse words (such as "husband" and "take"), and later several
>> more
>> Latin words, either directly or through French. As basic kinships go,
>> English is much closer to Norse than to Latin, sharing a much more recent
>> ancestor language.
>
> Perhaps, but when I was taking Latin in school we were told that 40% of
> the words in English had Latin roots.
>
And I found my Latin and English classes allowed me to guess
words in either language I hadn't actually met in vocabulary
lists or dictionaries.
--
Jette Goldie
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
("reply to" is spamblocked)
Patrick Joseph McNamara
"Andrew F. Donnell" <donn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:eYmdndnzLft3Ekje...@comcast.com...
> Invid Fan wrote:
>
>>
>> Do you have the same feeling when watching two productions of the same
>> play wtih different casts?
>
> their mouths, then yes.
>
>
I found the same sort of thing with watching the movie of Ghost in the Shell
(Jap. with Eng. subtitles) then watching Stand Alone Complex (dubbed in
Eng.) (and then again when watching GitS2:Innocence). But after a while I
got use to it. It's a little jarring at first to switch between the two, but
after a while one gets use to it.
I do like being able to watch both ways. With the dub I can watch for the
animation, and with the subtitles I can watch for story.
--
Patrick Joseph McNamara
writer...@yahoo.com
www.geocities.com/writerpatrick
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in
> message news:EQcBf.151$Lj3...@news.get2net.dk...
>> "Patrick Joseph McNamara" <writer...@yahoo.com> skrev i en
>> meddelelse news:9V6Bf.4995$ve.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>>
>>> Norse and Latin were root languages of English so they would sound
>>> similar.
>>
>> Old English was a root language of English. Modern English has
>> imported several Norse words (such as "husband" and "take"), and
>> later several more Latin words, either directly or through French.
>> As basic kinships go, English is much closer to Norse than to Latin,
>> sharing a much more recent ancestor language.
>
> Perhaps, but when I was taking Latin in school we were told that 40%
> of the words in English had Latin roots.
But what about the other 60% of English words? Were you told where those
came from? Or was it a cunningly incomplete use of statistics by a Latin
teacher?