Chapter of the Week: Appendix A: Durin's Folk

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Graham Lockwood

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Jun 19, 2005, 6:04:23 PM6/19/05
to
Hmm, at the end of May, my old USENET service stopped working so I got
a new one. It seemed to be working, but I have recently come to the
realization that my posts were not propogating to the rest of the
world. *I* saw them but that did me little good. In retrospect, I
probably should have realized something was up when no one ever replied
to me. ;) Anyway, here I am, using the Bane of USENET, Google Groups
(for now anyway). And here is the quite late CotW on Durin's Folk. I
promise, it was on time originally!

*****

Although we know from the Silmarillion that the Dwarves were made by
Aulë in
anticipation of the Children of Eru and were granted fear (souls) by
Eru
himself, no mention is made of the nature of their origin here. This is
in
keeping with the rest of the Appendices which make little or no mention
of
either the Valar of the actual creation of the Speaking Peoples.
Instead, we
are told only that there were Seven Fathers of the Dwarves and that
Durin was
the eldest. "He slept alone, until in the deeps of time and the
awakening of
that people he came to Azanulbizar, and in the caves above
Kheled-zâram in
the east of the Misty Mountains he made his dwelling, where afterwards
were
the Mines of Moria renowned in song."[1]

"There he lived so long that he was known far and wide as Durin the
Deathless. Yet in the end he died before the Eldar Days had passed".[2]

"five times an heir was born in his House so like his Forefather that
he
received the name Durin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to be the
Deathless that returned; for they have many strange tales and beliefs
concerning themselves and their fate in the world.[3]

After the destruction of Beleriand at the end of the First Age, the
great
halls of Nogrod and Belegost were destroyed and many of those Dwarves
fled to
Khazad-dûm, enriching that land immensely. And although the Second Age
was
known as the Dark Years, "The power of Moria endured throughout the
Dark
Years and the dominion of Sauron, for though Eregion was destroyed and
the
gates of Moria were shut,[4] the halls of Khazad-dûm were too deep and
strong
and filled with a people too numerous and valiant for Sauron to conquer
from
without."[5]

At about this time, "its people began to dwindle", most likely because
they
had lost all of their outside trading partners to Sauron.[6]

Cut to the mid-Third Age. "Durin was again its king" and the Dwarves,
delving
for mithril beneath Barazinbar (Cruel Caradhras) unleash the Balrog.
Although
the Elves of Lorien seem to blame the Dwarves for this, it is hardly
their
fault as they certainly didn't mean to do so and if they had known a
balrog
was down there, I doubt they would have let him out. "Durin was slain
by it,
and the year after Náin I, his son; and then the glory of Moria
passed, and
its people were destroyed or fled far away."[7]


Most of the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm go to the North (the Grey
Mountains), said
to be "rich and little explored.[8] but Thráin I goes to Erebor 18
years
after the death of Náin I[9]. There he finds the Arkenstone, Heart of
the
Mountain. 211 years later (20 years after his death), his son Thorin I
moves
to Grey Mountains[10].

Dragons begin to multiply again in the North (they weren't before?).
Dáin I
and his second son Fror are slain by a cold-drake at the door of their
hall.[11]

Grór, Dáin's third son, goes to the Iron Hills with many followers.
Thrór,
Dáin's first son and heir, returns to Erebor with "the remainder"[12].

The Dwarves prosper. The Iron Hills provide ore, Erebor provides goods
to Men
and the Men "became strong and drove back all enemies from the
East"[13]

Then, "Smaug the Golden, greatest of the dragons of his day[14], arose
and
without warning came against King Thrór and descended on the Mountain
in
flames. It was not long before all that realm was destroyed, and the
town of
Dale near by was ruined and deserted; but Smaug entered into the Great
Hall
and lay there upon a bed of gold."

Erebor is destroyed but "last of all from the halls by a secret door
came
Thrór himself and his son Thráin II."[15] Thráin's children, Thorin
(Oakenshield), Frerin, and Dís (mother of Fíli and Kíli) also escape
with
them. Many other Dwarves also escape but most go to the Iron Hills.[16]


Years later, Thrór gives to Thráin his Ring of Power, and sets off
with a
companion Nár. Thrór quite foolishly walks brazenly through the East
Gate of
Khazad-dûm (against the more level-headed Nár's protestations)
"proudly... as
an heir that returns." Nár waits outside for many days until "he heard
a loud
shout and the blare of a horn, and a body was flung out on the steps."
He
creeps nearer and sees that it is Thrór: beheaded. An Orc yells at him
from
the darkness and is rather rude (to say the least) and brags about
killing
him. The name "AZOG" is branded on Thrór's severed head's brow and
"That name
was branded in [Nár's] heart and in the hearts of all the Dwarves
afterwards." Azog does not let him take the body or the head but throws
him a
bag of "a few coins of little worth" as a "fee". Nár, weeping, returns
to
Thráin. The orcs hack the body to pieces and throw the bits to the
crows.

When Thráin finds out, he weeps and tears his beard and then falls
silent for
7 days[17]. "Then he stood up and said: 'This cannot be borne!'"[18]

He sends messengers out to all the other houses of the Dwarves. Not
only
Dwarves of Durin muster, but armies "from the Houses of other Fathers;
for
this dishonour to the heir of the Eldest of their race filled them with

wrath. When all was ready they assailed and sacked one by one all the
strongholds of the Orcs that they could from Gundabad to the
Gladden[19].
Both sides were pitiless, and there was death and cruel deeds by dark
and by
light. But the Dwarves had the victory through their strength, and
their
matchless weapons, and the fire of their anger, as they hunted for Azog
in
every den under Mountain."[20]

The Orcs flee before the Dwarves and gather in Moria. The Dwarves
arrive in
Azanulbizar and there is a mighty battle. Legions of Orcs pour out of
the
gates and the Orcs have the higher ground. Thráin leads the first
assault
(uphill against superior numbers) and is driven back with great
loss[21]. "So
began the Battle of Azanulbizar... at the memory of which the Orcs
still
shudder and the Dwarves weep."[22]

The Dwarves of the Iron Hills arrive late to the battle (where were
they?!)
"and fresh to the field the mailed warriors of Náin, Grór's son,
drove
through the Orcs to the very threshold of Moria, crying 'Azog! Azog!'
as they
hewed down with their mattocks all who stood in their way."[23]

Náin arrives at the gate and cries out, "Azog! If you are in come out!
Or is
the play in the valley too rough?"

Azog comes out and he's BAD ASS and Náin's tired from battle. Azog is
very
rude (again) and they fight, Azog delivering a neck-breaking blow to
Náin
(his mail withstands the blade). Azog laughs but then realizes that the
rest
of his army is getting it's butt handed to it "and the Dwarves went
this way
and that slaying as they would, and those that could escape from them
were
flying south, shrieking as they ran."[24] He flees back to the Gate,
but "Up
the steps after him leaped a Dwarf with a red axe. It was Dáin
Ironfoot,
Náin's son. Right at the doors he caught Azog, and there he slew him,
and
hewed off his head."[25]

The Dwarves win the battle and stick Azog's head on a pike and thrust
the
purse of small coins into its mouth. "But no feast nor song was there
that
night; for their dead were beyond the count of grief." Thráin,
however, is in
a good mood (despite having lost an eye and gained a limp). "Good! We
have
the victory. Khazad-dûm is ours!" The Dwarves tell him (politely, he
IS
Durin's heir) to take a hike; "We fought this war for vengeance and
vengeance
we have taken." The Dwarves of other houses are slightly less polite
and tell
him that if they're not going to get "the weregilds that are owed to
us" then
they're taking their ball and going home. Even Dáin tells him he's off
his
rocker. "You are the father of our Folk, and we have bled for you, and
will
again. But we will not enter Khazad-dûm. You will not enter
Khazad-dûm. Only
I have looked through the shadow of the gate. Beyond the shadow it
waits for
you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power
than ours
must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria."[26]

So the Dwarves leave. But first, they strip the bodies of weapons and
mail
and burn the bodies. This was very hard for them, because they were
accustomed to make tombs of stone for their dead but there were far too
many
for that.[27][28]

Thráin and Thorin and some others return to Dunland and eventually to
the
Ered Luin.

We now have a short description of the Ring of Power held by Durin's
heirs.
They believed that it was given to Durin III by Celebrimbor himself and
was
never touched by Sauron. It was kept so secret that rarely did any
other than
the possessor know where it was for the Dwarves only gave it up near
death.[29] Some believed it remained in Khazad-dûm in the hidden tombs
of the
kings. Some that Thrór had it when he went to Moria. However, Thrór
gave it
to Thráin but not Thráin to Thorin.

Thráin (gone a bit mad, like his daddy), sets off with some companions
for
Erebor. He gets waylaid by the Necromancer/Sauron and taken to Dol
Guldor and
the Ring is taken from him by force. Thorin becomes the Heir of Durin
in
exile.

He becomes somewhat wealthy through trade but is increasingly annoyed
at the
fate of his once mighty House. He bumps into Gandalf (by chance) in
Bree[30]
and the rest is history.

An account of the women of the dwarves follows. Dís, daughter of
Thráin II,
sister of Thorin, mother of Fíli and Kíli, is the only dwarf-woman
named and
appears in the family tree. Women are no more than a third of the
population
and less than that actually marry. Some don't want to marry at all,
others
want to marry someone who doesn't want to marry them. Dwarves can be
quite
stubborn. Because of this, the Dwarves multiply slowly.[31] It does not
say
specifically that dwarf-women have beards, but it does say that "They
are in
voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey[32], so
like
to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell
them
apart." Beards being a notable feature of dwarf-men, it is logical that

dwarf-women also have them.

An account of Gimli follows. After the War of the Ring, he brings a
part of
the Dwarf-folk of Erebor to Aglarond and becomes Lord of the Glittering
Caves
and has his people fix the mithril gates of Minas Tirith broken by the
WK.

Here, finally, this appendix slips into the first person and reveals
the
authorship (presumably hobbits). "We have heard tell that Legolas took
Gimli
Glóin's son with him because of their great friendship... and it may
be that
she (Galadriel) obtained this grace for him."[33]

*****
Footnotes:
[1] Tolkien seems to have been a bit confused himself on just what "He
slept
alone" meant. In PoME he says that there were 4 places of awakening: 2
Fathers awoke in Ered Lindon, Durin awoke at Mt. Gundabad ("in origin a

Khuzdul name)(or a valley in the Ered Mithrin), and the other 4 Fathers
awoke
in two other locations in the distant east. He later seems to have
realized
that 7 males can't reproduce very easily on their own and decided to
give
each of the other 6 Fathers a mate that laid with them. He later
decided that
even this might not be enough and contemplated (although never wrote)
adding
significantly more Dwarves with the Fathers so that they could have had
a
ready-made clan. How does this compare to the awakenings of the other
Peoples? The Elves seem to have awoken in some significant numbers. Of
Men it
is not (to my knowledge) specified. Tolkien seems to have left open the

possibility that the Genesis story of Adam and Eve actually took place
far in
the far East. If Men can begin with a single couple, why can't the
Dwarves
from 6.5 couples?

In both versions in which Durin is truly alone, he builds up "his
people"
with immigrants from the other Houses. Why would Dwarves choose to make
the
very long distance move to join a foreign House? Because of the
prestige of
being a member of the eldest House? Did Durin receive a daughter of one
of
the other Houses as a wife? I seriously doubt polygamy was involved
(Tolkien
seems to have found the idea unpalatable at least) but judging from
Durin the
First's incredibly long life, he may have had time to have had many
wives in
succession as they each died of old age.

[2] Just how old was he? The Silmarillion mentions Dwarves interacting
with
the Elves of Beleriand prior to the rising of the Sun & Moon. Gimli's
song
says "No stain yet on the moon was seen". How close to the end of the
1st Age
did he come?

Additionally, how incredibly devastating to his People would his death
have
been? He was the "Father of their folk" and the eldest Father of all
the
Dwarves and undoubtedly the last Father alive for a long time. Many
must have
truly believed that he was immortal.

[3] How strange are these tales? See Note on the Afterlife at the end
of this
piece.

[4] In UT, we learn that Durin III sent an army "to extricate Elrond"
from
the mess he had gotten himself into fighting Sauron in Eriador and
allowed
the Elves to retreat into Khazad-dûm through the Hollin Gate. Sauron
is not
pleased.

How is it that Sauron could not break through the Hollin Gate while the

Watcher in the Water demolished it without much apparent effort? Had it

deteriorated that much by the end of the Third Age? If so, how exactly
does
stone deteriorate?

[5] While it is not mentioned, this seems a clear reference to the
balrog,
which conquered Khazad-dûm from within. Khazad-dûm was truly an
impenetrable
fortress. The West Gate and the East Gate could not be breached
(neither
would be destroyed for thousands of years, until towards the end of the
Third
Age; the East Gate being destroyed at the Battle of Azanulbizar). The
Bridge
of Khazad-dûm destroyed by Gandalf was the only way into Khazad-dûm
from the
east and, as a last resort, could have been defended for long or even
destroyed by the Dwarves themselves, barring an enemy from any further
progress. The West Gate seems to have been built quite late, within 100
years
or so of the destruction of Eregion. Prior to that, the heavily
fortified
East Gate would have been the only way in.

[6] The PoME essay "Of Dwarves and Men" goes into much greater detail
WRT the
relationship between (you guessed it) Dwarves and Men. Essentially, the

Dwarves would provide high quality worked goods while the Men would
supply
mainly raw materials, especially food. Compare this to Thorin's comment
in TH
where he says that the Men of Dale would "pay us handsomely, especially
in
food-supplies, which we never bothered to grow or find for ourselves".

[7] The violent and abrupt destruction of an entire civilization
compressed
into a single sentence.

[8] In "Of Dwarves and Men", Tolkien describes an ancient vast empire
of
Khazad-dûm stretching from Khazad-dûm proper, north along the east
slopes of
the Misty Mountains to Gundabad, east along the Ered Mithrin, through
Erebor
and all the way to the Iron Hills which were occupied early and
supplied most
of the Iron Ore to Khazad-dûm by way of the Great Dwarf Road, the
ruins of
which were the Old Forest Road mentioned in TH. No mention of any of
this is
found here but it is not inconsistent with this account although
reading only
the Appendix would lead one to believe that the Grey Mountains, Erebor,
and
the Iron Hills were all only colonized after the fall of Khazad-dûm
and by
its refugees. However, also note Thorin's comment in TH that Erebor
"had been
discovered by my far ancestor, Thrain the Old". While I highly doubt
that he
"discovered" the mountain (the Men of the area at least knew it was
there I'm
sure), this seems a clear indication that it was not inhabited by
Dwarves
prior to then.

[9] What had he been doing for 18 years? And why did Thráin I go
somewhere
different than the mass of his people? Or, to put it another way, why
did the
mass of his people not follow him to Erebor?

[10] To be with his erstwhile people?

[11] Compare this timing to that of the slaying of Scatha by Fram,
ancestor
of Eorl. It is not said (that I know of) what year Scatha was slain.
However,
Fram's father, Frumgar, led his people to the Éothéod, the region
near the
Ered Mithrin in 1977.

Náin I, last King of Khazad-dûm, was slain in 1981 and so began the
diaspora
of the Dwarves of Durin. Thorin I led many of his people to the Grey
Mountains in 2210. This undoubtedly led to a great increase in numbers
and
seems to have been the point at which the dragon attacks on the Dwarves
rose
dramatically. Dáin I, last king in the Grey Mountains was slain in
2589

This general dragon activity is no doubt an oft-overlooked credit to
the
timeline consistencies Tolkien worked so hard to achieve. But consider
this.
Scatha was in possession of a Dwarf hoard at the time of his death and
when
Fram refused to return his twice stolen goods to the rightful owners
(the
Dwarves), they sought justice and slew him for his crimes. It is said
that
after the death of Scatha, "the land had peace from the long-worms
afterwards." Was Scatha the only dragon around? Obviously not, for the
Dwarves were troubled by them for centuries afterwards. I think it is
no
coincidence that the decline in the dragon-problems of the Éothéod
coincided
almost exactly with the increase in the population of the Dwarves in
the Grey
Mountains and the concurrent increase in their own dragon-problems. It
is my
contention that the relative peace of the Éothéod was due not so much
to the
death of Scatha (though that undoubtedly played a factor) but because
the
dragons turned their full attention to the Dwarves. Why pillage poor
horsemen
on the open plain when you can capture a Dwarf-hoard in a ready-made
hall
beneath the mountains?

[12] Again, the rightful king of the Longbeards goes to Erebor but the
mass
of his people goes elsewhere. Why? Was Erebor just too small? Did it
have a
leaky roof? Did the Dale-men play their rap music too loud at night?

Also, had Erebor simply been abandoned this whole time? Were there
still a
few Dwarves who lived there? If not, why wasn't it ransacked in their
absence?

[13] There seems to be no comment on this era of prosperity among the
Northmen elsewhere in the Appendix (such as in the Tale of Years) but
it
represents the "good old days" that the songs of Laketown speak if in
TH.

[14] What happened to all the rest? Gandalf later seems paranoid about
the
damage Smaug could have done, but surely all of those "lesser" dragons
could
have done some damage too. Why didn't they? Did Sauron not have control
over
them? If not, then why would he have had control over Smaug?

[15] Why last? Going down with the ship?

[16] Those Dwarves just cannot catch a break. Do they have an "In case
of
Monster Attack" escape plan set up by now? You know, if you wake up and
smell
smoke, feel the door-knob before you open it to make sure a dragon or
demon
of fire isn't on the other side; wake the others; use the ladder-rope
to get
out the window; meet up at the mailbox?

[17] An important number.

[18] Is there any better line to begin a war of vengeance with?

[19] Hidden inside a parenthesis inside a bracket inside an endnote in
the
middle of "Of Dwarves and Men" (note 25), it is revealed that this line
was
originally that the Dwarves "assailed and sacked one by one all the
strongholds of the Orcs that they could FIND from Gundabad to the
Gladden"(emphasis added) and that "the word 'find' was erroneously
dropped in
the Second Edition" (why was it never re-added?).

The difference in meaning that the single word "find" produces is
profound.
Without it, the sentence says that the Dwarves failed to assail and
sack some
of the Orc's strongholds because they were not up to the task. Perhaps
they
attempted to but were not strong enough, or perhaps they didn't even
bother
to try because they knew they would lose. With the word "find", the
possibility is allowed that the Dwarves MAY have failed to sack some of
the
Orc's strongholds but if so, it was only because they were unaware of
their
existence.

[20] Note that they don't go raging into battle in a fit of anger. This
is a
very methodical war. They start in the north and they work their way
down the
Misty Mountains towards Moria. This also takes place about 300 years
after
"Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains". One
also
wonders what Gollum thinks of all this, that parasite in the dens of
the
Orcs. Presumably he hid. Did he use the Ring? It may not have been
enough. A
Dwarf hunting Orcs in the dark may not be looking to see his prey
anyway.

[21] Frerin, Thráin's son dies. Fundin, father of Balin dies. Thráin
loses an
eye. Thorin, heir of Thráin, is wounded, loses his shield, and hews
off the
branch of an oak tree and uses it as a shield/club, earning him the
name
Oakenshield.

(Tolkien had to come up with SOME story behind the name. Eikenskialdi
(Oakenshield) was the name of a Dwarf in the Eddas and I suspect
Tolkien
appended it to Thorin's name in TH more because it sounded cool than
anything
else)

[22] How do we know what the Orcs do when they think about the battle?

[23] A mattock is a digging implement somewhat like a pickaxe but with
one
end flattened like a long hoe. While a digging implement may be
appropriate
in the hands of a Dwarf and I certainly wouldn't want to be struck by
one, it
seems as if the Dwarves should have been able to come up with some
more...
traditional weapons. However, compare this to the description of
Dáin's
warriors in TH, where it is said that "In battle they wielded heavy
two-handed mattocks; but each of them had also a short broad sword at
his
side and a roundshield slug at his back." Dáin and Thorin are both
described
as having axes so it might be deduced that the mattocks were for the
"lower"
ranks. However, Náin, Dáin's father, is described as using a mattock
in his
duel with Azog.

[24] Gondor and Rohan soon after have problems with Orcs fleeing from
the
battle to the White Mountains. It takes them decades to finish mopping
them
up.

[25] Do we ever get an explanation for why his is "Ironfoot"?

[26] I used to think that Dáin actually saw the Balrog hanging out on
the
other side of the gate, ready to open up a can of whup-ass on anyone
who
walked in. Now, that seems a little far-fetched. More likely, Dáin was
simply
stating the obvious. If the Balrog could take out Durin the Deathless
and the
Longbeards at the height of their power, there was no way that Thráin
the
one-eyed gimp and his band of decimated itinerant Dwarves could do
anything
about it. OTOH, it also sounds suspiciously like Tolkien-style
prophesying.
The "some other power than ours" would refer (later) of course to
Gandalf.

[27] See Note on the Afterlife at the end of this piece.

[28] "standing by the great stake, Thráin said to Thorin Oakenshield:
'Some
would think this head dearly bought! At least we have given our kingdom
for
it." How so? They didn't really have a kingdom before the War. Besides
having
somewhat fewer subjects now, how has their "kingdom" (such as it is)
now been
given up?

[29] That they could give it up at all, and so regularly (every
generation)
speaks to their indomitable nature.

[30] How much of the high and mighty business of Middle Earth was
planned
over Butterbur's beer?

[31] Possibly negatively, in fact. In the rough drafts of this section
in
PoME, Tolkien says that the Dwarves rarely have even 4 children and
this is
borne out in the family tree when 3 in fact is the max. Assuming a
third of
all offspring are women (it's actually less than that) and they all
have
children (they don't) and they all have 4 children (usually less), then
the
increase in population every generation per person (a generation lasts
about
100 years) would be (1/3 * 4) or 1 1/3. Since the absolute minimum
necessary
to sustain a population is 1 and the numbers are actually quite a bit
more
dire than this, it's incredible (as in NOT credible) that their
population
would ever even remain constant, much less increase.

[32] Do they wear other garb when NOT journeying? What does a
dwarf-woman
wear in the privacy of her home? Sexy negligees?

[33] How would Gimli and Legolas have known whether or not the Valar
would
let Gimli in? It is often said of Bilbo and Frodo's special
dispensation that
Gandalf must have communed psychically with the Valar and gotten the
OK. But
Gandalf had been long gone by the time Gimli and Legolas departed.

*****

A Note on the Family Tree:
It is not said here, but in PoME, Tolkien states that Dwarves reach
maturity
around age 30 and remain physically about the same until age 240,
whereupon
they age quite rapidly until they die at around 250. Unless they're
going to
be long lived, in which case the process is delayed and they may become
quite
old. While this is not specifically stated in the published work, the
dates
listed in the family tree provided bear it out. Every Dwarf listed
(except
those who were killed) died between the ages of 242-261 except for
Gimli who
departed (not died) with Legolas at age 262 and Dwalin who lived to the
vast
age of 340. Dáin II Ironfoot was 252 when he fell fighting in the War
of the
Ring. The age at which a Dwarf had his first child (at least among the
royal
family) was even more consistent. PoME states that Dwarves rarely marry

before the age of 90 and indeed every first born son listed was born
between
96-103 years after his father (Dís had her first child at 99). The
subsequent
children (when listed) were born between 5-11 years later, usually
closer to
10.

With the exception of Durin, all of the names of the Kings are NEW
after the
Fall of Khazad-dûm. There's a couple Dáins, a few Thorins, but Dáin
I was
after the Fall, Thorin I was after the Fall, etc. There was no Sindri
IV (or
whatever) named after 3 earlier Kings of Khazad-dûm. Why did they not
reuse
any of the old names?

Why is Thorin III named "Stonehelm"?

Durin VII is listed as "the Last" and as a descendant of an unknown
degree of
Thorin III, son of Dáin II. It does not say here, but in an earlier
draft in
PoME, it is said that he refounds Khazad-dûm. Christopher Tolkien is
at a
loss as to why this comment was dropped from the published version as
am I.
He is still listed in the family tree so his importance is undeniable.
However, the recolonization of Khazad-dûm is the last gasp of the
Longbeards
and the Age of Men is upon them. No explanation is made as to why the
Dwarves
should dwindle away (as it is for the Elves) although their anemic
reproduction rates likely had something to do with it. It is likely
that a
small number of them survived and led in part to the various legends
Men have
had of Dwarves including The Abomination by that hack Disney.

*****
A Note on the Afterlife:
What is the nature of the afterlife of the Dwarves? Tolkien never
specifically says but instead leaves it ambiguous by saying that there
are
many strange tales about it. It may perhaps be illuminative to look at
the
case of the one Dwarf who returned from the dead: Durin. The passages
in this
Appendix seem to indicate that his fea returned to inhabit the bodies
of his
descendants from time to time (6 times). It is also said (not here, but
in
both earlier and later versions) that these later Durins had complete
memories of their previous lives.

At first glance, this seems similar to what Tibetan Buddhists believe
to be
the fate of their Lamas (the Dalai Lama, etc.) however their are
important
differences. The Lamas are supposedly reincarnated almost immediately
upon
death, while Durin took centuries or millenia to reappear. Also, in
Tibetan
Buddhism, all other creatures are also reincarnated, more or
immediately upon
death. However, most have no memories of their previous lives due, no
doubt,
to a lack of enlightenment. For the Dwarves, there must be some place
where
Durin's fea hangs out while waiting to be reborn.

But there is a later conception of the nature of Durin found in PoME
and this
seems to have been Tolkien's last word on the matter (although he may,
of
course, have changed his mind again later). There it is said that the
belief
that the Seven Fathers (not only Durin) were reborn in their
descendants was
an Elvish and Mannish tale merely derived from the Dwarves but not
necessarily accurate. Tolkien then immediately says that the Noldor
have a
strange tale that they supposedly heard from Aulë himself. It says
"that the
spirit of each of the Fathers (such as Durin) should, at the end of the
long
span of life allotted to Dwarves, fall asleep, but then lie in a tomb
of his
own body, at rest, and there its weariness and any hurts that had
befallen it
should be amended. Then after long years he should arise and take up
his
kingship again." Tolkien then ponders how this would have affected the
succession but then concludes that it would only occur when there was
no
other heir, a likely occurrence among the non-prolific Dwarves.

This new version may seem quite radical, but it is not as radical as
might be
thought. The nature of the fear of the Fathers is revealed in an essay
discussing the "reincarnation" of the Elves, specifically that of
Glorfindel.
Tolkien had toyed with the idea that the Elves were reborn into their
descendants (similar to "classical" reincarnation) but eventually
scrapped
that idea in favor of their fear actually having new (full grown)
bodies made
for them by the Valar.

Why should Tolkien have gone to such pains to avoid reincarnation for
both
the Elves and the Dwarves? Christopher Tolkien does not (to my
knowledge)
speculate on the matter, but I believe it was part of the desire he had
in
his later years to make ME more consistent with the Real World as he
saw it.
His doomed attempts to rewrite his cosmology are often cited, but
beyond the
physical, he may have decided that reincarnation was not in keeping
with
"reality" (it was certainly not in keeping with Catholic dogma).

However, resurrection is well within the bounds of Catholic teachings.
Christ, at least, was "known" to have been resurrected, much in the
fashion
of Durin and the other Fathers. He died, was laid to rest in a stone
tomb,
his "weariness and any hurts that had befallen" him were amended (at
least
enough for him to function) and then he woke up and went on living
again.
Moreover, in traditional Christian thought, everyone will be bodily
resurrected come the Judgment Day.

So it may be with Dwarves. They have the evidence of the bodily
resurrections
of the Fathers and may believe (with or without "divine instruction"
from
Mahal (Aulë)) that all of the Dwarves will be bodily resurrected one
day.
This could be the reason why they are so careful with their dead (in
the Sil,
the Dwarves of Belegost stopped fighting to bear away the body of their

fallen king Azaghal) and always bury them only in stone tombs. It also
may be
why the desecration of bodies (such as of Thrór by Azog) is such an
insult
and why the burning of bodies (after the Battle of Azanulbizar) was so
grievous to them and why the phrase "He was a burned Dwarf" would have
conveyed such total grief.

It is suggested in the Sil that there is a special hall of Mandos set
aside
where Aulë gathers the fear of the Dwarves. While this may be true,
the
Dwarven fear may not have had anything resembling a consciousness while
there
but instead were merely held in safe-keeping until such time as the
resurrection.

Emma Pease

unread,
Jun 19, 2005, 7:49:45 PM6/19/05
to
In article <1119218663....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,

> Graham Lockwood wrote:
> Hmm, at the end of May, my old USENET service stopped working so I got
> a new one. It seemed to be working, but I have recently come to the
> realization that my posts were not propogating to the rest of the
> world. *I* saw them but that did me little good. In retrospect, I
> probably should have realized something was up when no one ever replied
> to me. ;) Anyway, here I am, using the Bane of USENET, Google Groups
> (for now anyway). And here is the quite late CotW on Durin's Folk. I
> promise, it was on time originally!

I've reformatted slightly as the lines seem to have broken oddly and
commented only on a couple of points.

Also when was the moon created in this version of the mythology.

> Additionally, how incredibly devastating to his People would his
> death have been? He was the "Father of their folk" and the eldest
> Father of all the Dwarves and undoubtedly the last Father alive for
> a long time. Many must have truly believed that he was immortal.
>
> [3] How strange are these tales? See Note on the Afterlife at the
> end of this piece.
>
> [4] In UT, we learn that Durin III sent an army "to extricate
> Elrond" from the mess he had gotten himself into fighting Sauron in
> Eriador and allowed the Elves to retreat into Khazad-dûm through
> the Hollin Gate. Sauron is not pleased.
>
> How is it that Sauron could not break through the Hollin Gate while
> the Watcher in the Water demolished it without much apparent effort?
> Had it deteriorated that much by the end of the Third Age? If so,
> how exactly does stone deteriorate?

I don't think the watcher destroyed the gate. He only blocked it.
Sauron could have done the same but the dwarves would have cleared the
mess away once it became safe to do so.

These were (a) lesser worms that Elrond and other could have handled
and (b) further away and perhaps a bit reluctant to move to an area
where people have some experience in killing dragons.

Perhaps the Dwarves went in for a bit of dragon extermination much
like they are earlier gone into orc extermination.


--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht

Tar-Elenion

unread,
Jun 19, 2005, 8:09:43 PM6/19/05
to
In article <slrndbc14...@munin.Stanford.EDU>,
em...@kanpai.stanford.edu says...

> In article <1119218663....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> > Graham Lockwood wrote:


> >
> > Although we know from the Silmarillion that the Dwarves were made by

> > Aulė in anticipation of the Children of Eru and were granted fear


> > (souls) by Eru himself, no mention is made of the nature of their
> > origin here. This is in keeping with the rest of the Appendices
> > which make little or no mention of either the Valar of the actual
> > creation of the Speaking Peoples. Instead, we are told only that
> > there were Seven Fathers of the Dwarves and that Durin was the
> > eldest. "He slept alone, until in the deeps of time and the
> > awakening of that people he came to Azanulbizar, and in the caves

> > above Kheled-zāram in the east of the Misty Mountains he made his


> > dwelling, where afterwards were the Mines of Moria renowned in
> > song."[1]
> >
> > "There he lived so long that he was known far and wide as Durin the
> > Deathless. Yet in the end he died before the Eldar Days had passed".[2]

In LotR, as well as most post-LotR writings, including The Hobbit as
revised, the Sun and the Moon an extant Sun and Moon are explicit or
implicit, and were created long before the Elves awoke as part of
creation of Arda.
As it develops in the 'history', not the 'mythology', Dwarves woke after
Men, and Men woke 'soon' after the Elves (IIRC, during the Great March
is suggested).


>
> > Additionally, how incredibly devastating to his People would his
> > death have been? He was the "Father of their folk" and the eldest
> > Father of all the Dwarves and undoubtedly the last Father alive for
> > a long time. Many must have truly believed that he was immortal.
> >


--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.

Michael Ikeda

unread,
Jun 20, 2005, 6:29:55 PM6/20/05
to
> In article
> <1119218663....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
>> Graham Lockwood wrote:

>> [5] While it is not mentioned, this seems a clear reference to
>> the balrog, which conquered Khazad-dûm from within. Khazad-dûm
>> was truly an impenetrable fortress. The West Gate and the East
>> Gate could not be breached (neither would be destroyed for
>> thousands of years, until towards the end of the Third Age; the
>> East Gate being destroyed at the Battle of Azanulbizar). The
>> Bridge of Khazad-dûm destroyed by Gandalf was the only way into
>> Khazad-dûm from the east and, as a last resort, could have been
>> defended for long or even destroyed by the Dwarves themselves,
>> barring an enemy from any further progress. The West Gate seems
>> to have been built quite late, within 100 years or so of the
>> destruction of Eregion. Prior to that, the heavily fortified
>> East Gate would have been the only way in.

Scenario: Immediately following the destruction of Eregion a large
portion of Sauron's army gathers outside the West Gate of Khazad-dum
led by several of his more powerful servants. They figure out the
code to open the West Gate and force their way into the place.

Granted, I'm not sure one would necessarily want to tangle with the
Dwarves underground, even if a few of the Nine Rings were aiding the
assault.

--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

R. Dan Henry

unread,
Jun 25, 2005, 12:55:24 AM6/25/05
to
On 19 Jun 2005 15:04:23 -0700, "Graham Lockwood" <g...@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

>Cut to the mid-Third Age. "Durin was again its king" and the Dwarves,
>delving for mithril beneath Barazinbar (Cruel Caradhras) unleash the Balrog.
>Although the Elves of Lorien seem to blame the Dwarves for this, it is hardly
>their fault as they certainly didn't mean to do so and if they had known a
>balrog was down there, I doubt they would have let him out.

I also don't see what the Elves have to be upset about -- the Dwarves
were the ones who suffered for it in any case. The Balrog doesn't seem
to have bothered the Elves -- heck, he doesn't even come out when
Dwarves are camped outside his door. The worst the Elves suffered was
that they had Orcs instead of Dwarves for neighbors.

>The Dwarves win the battle and stick Azog's head on a pike and thrust
>the purse of small coins into its mouth.

You'll notice they did take the purse and held on to it all this time.
Dwarves don't let even pennies go easily.

>It does not say specifically that dwarf-women have beards, but it does
>say that "They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must
>go on a journey[32], so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears
>of other peoples cannot tell them apart." Beards being a notable
>feature of dwarf-men, it is logical that dwarf-women also have them.

Or else they wear fake beards, thus making them part of their garb.
I'm sure as crafty a people as the Dwarves could make an excellent
fake beard.

>*****

>[4] In UT, we learn that Durin III sent an army "to extricate Elrond"
>from the mess he had gotten himself into fighting Sauron in Eriador and
>allowed the Elves to retreat into Khazad-dûm through the Hollin Gate. Sauron
>is not pleased.
>
>How is it that Sauron could not break through the Hollin Gate while the
>Watcher in the Water demolished it without much apparent effort?

As someone pointed out, the Watcher merely shuts the gate and blocks
it from the outside. As far as we know, the gate isn't scratched.

>[8] In "Of Dwarves and Men", Tolkien describes an ancient vast empire
>of Khazad-dûm stretching from Khazad-dûm proper, north along the east
>slopes of the Misty Mountains to Gundabad, east along the Ered Mithrin,
>through Erebor and all the way to the Iron Hills which were occupied
>early and supplied most of the Iron Ore to Khazad-dûm by way of the
>Great Dwarf Road, the ruins of
>which were the Old Forest Road mentioned in TH. No mention of any of
>this is found here but it is not inconsistent with this account although
>reading only the Appendix would lead one to believe that the Grey Mountains,
>Erebor, and the Iron Hills were all only colonized after the fall of Khazad-dûm
>and by its refugees. However, also note Thorin's comment in TH that Erebor
>"had been discovered by my far ancestor, Thrain the Old".

He "discovered" it like a restaurant or night club -- made it popular
with the refugees. Yeah, that's it.

>[9] What had he been doing for 18 years? And why did Thráin I go
>somewhere different than the mass of his people?

He wanted to try for a more glorious rebuilding.

>Or, to put it another way, why
>did the mass of his people not follow him to Erebor?

There wasn't room yet. It takes time to hollow out a mountain.

>[10] To be with his erstwhile people?

Probably.

>[11] Compare this timing to that of the slaying of Scatha by Fram,
>ancestor of Eorl.

...

>This general dragon activity is no doubt an oft-overlooked credit to
>the timeline consistencies Tolkien worked so hard to achieve. But consider
>this. Scatha was in possession of a Dwarf hoard at the time of his death and
>when Fram refused to return his twice stolen goods to the rightful owners
>(the Dwarves), they sought justice and slew him for his crimes. It is said
>that after the death of Scatha, "the land had peace from the long-worms
>afterwards." Was Scatha the only dragon around? Obviously not, for the
>Dwarves were troubled by them for centuries afterwards. I think it is
>no coincidence that the decline in the dragon-problems of the Éothéod
>coincided almost exactly with the increase in the population of the Dwarves in
>the Grey Mountains and the concurrent increase in their own dragon-problems. It
>is my contention that the relative peace of the Éothéod was due not so much
>to the death of Scatha (though that undoubtedly played a factor) but because
>the dragons turned their full attention to the Dwarves. Why pillage poor
>horsemen on the open plain when you can capture a Dwarf-hoard in a ready-made
>hall beneath the mountains?

This is a very good point. I like this idea.

>[12] Again, the rightful king of the Longbeards goes to Erebor but the
>mass of his people goes elsewhere. Why? Was Erebor just too small?

Well, according to the maps, the Iron Hills are certainly larger.

>Also, had Erebor simply been abandoned this whole time? Were there
>still a few Dwarves who lived there? If not, why wasn't it ransacked in their
>absence?

They would have locked the doors if they all left. Although nothing
says Erebor was abandoned, I imagine the population was reduced by the
departure of the King. Still, as long as there were customers to be
had in Dale, I'd expect Erebor to be kept open as a retail outlet at
the very least.

>[14] What happened to all the rest? Gandalf later seems paranoid about
>the damage Smaug could have done, but surely all of those "lesser" dragons
>could have done some damage too. Why didn't they? Did Sauron not have control
>over them? If not, then why would he have had control over Smaug?

None of the other dragons were as powerful or as active. Smaug may
well have been the only flying, fire-breathing dragon left, which is
the only kind that gets the WMD rating. It is also unclear how many
lesser worms survive -- surely the Dwarves didn't lose every encounter
and the occasional heroic Northman would want to make a name for
himself. Also, Smaug may have been the only one with the resources and
resourcefulness to make himself an armor for his underside.

>[15] Why last? Going down with the ship?

I always assumed Thror and Thrain were in the royal suite, and that
this was so cut off that they were better off sneaking out the secret
way in any case. Plus, they needed to gather up the most precious
possessions they could (although the Arkenstone was clearly not
accessible -- I can't imagine them not taking it if there were any way
to get at it), all sorts of royal business type stuff that you grab in
case of dragon-attack.

>[16] Those Dwarves just cannot catch a break. Do they have an "In case
>of Monster Attack" escape plan set up by now?

Seems not, or the survivors wouldn't have been split.

>[19] Hidden inside a parenthesis inside a bracket inside an endnote in
>the middle of "Of Dwarves and Men" (note 25), it is revealed that this line
>was originally that the Dwarves "assailed and sacked one by one all the
>strongholds of the Orcs that they could FIND from Gundabad to the
>Gladden"(emphasis added) and that "the word 'find' was erroneously
>dropped in the Second Edition" (why was it never re-added?).

As you point out, that's a big change.

>[20] Note that they don't go raging into battle in a fit of anger. This
>is a very methodical war.

Don't piss off the Dwarves.

>One also wonders what Gollum thinks of all this, that parasite in the
>dens of the Orcs. Presumably he hid. Did he use the Ring? It may not
>have been enough. A Dwarf hunting Orcs in the dark may not be looking
>to see his prey anyway.

Gollum's great advantage would have been his comfortableness with
water. Keeping to the underground waterways, he'd have been able to
avoid both Dwarf and Orc until the fighting had passed on. Then he
could go scavenge Orc-corpses for a feast. Then it would be naught but
fish for years until the Orcs repopulated.

>[21] Frerin, Thráin's son dies. Fundin, father of Balin dies. Thráin
>loses an eye. Thorin, heir of Thráin, is wounded, loses his shield,
>and hews off the branch of an oak tree and uses it as a shield/club,
>earning him the name Oakenshield.
>
>(Tolkien had to come up with SOME story behind the name. Eikenskialdi
>(Oakenshield) was the name of a Dwarf in the Eddas and I suspect Tolkien
>appended it to Thorin's name in TH more because it sounded cool than
>anything else)

Well, it does. I'm more interested in Thorin Stonehelm (head like a
rock?)

>[22] How do we know what the Orcs do when they think about the battle?

Spying, stories told by Men who surrendered after the fall of Sauron,
interrogations of captured Orcs, observations by Dwarves who used
"Azanulbizar" as a battle-cry.

>[23] A mattock is a digging implement somewhat like a pickaxe but with
>one end flattened like a long hoe. While a digging implement may be
>appropriate in the hands of a Dwarf and I certainly wouldn't want to be
>struck by one, it
>seems as if the Dwarves should have been able to come up with some
>more... traditional weapons.

Most traditional weapons started out as variations on agricultural or
other tools. Even the sword grew out of the knife, which was an
all-purpose tool in origin. The spear is a pointed stick, a basic
digging implement and crude plow. The axe was probably used for
chopping inanimate objects before adaptation to combat and may well
have been modified from a scraper before that. The Dwarven war mattock
may not be exactly the same as a mattock used for digging.

>[25] Do we ever get an explanation for why his is "Ironfoot"?

Probably his shoes.

>[26] I used to think that Dáin actually saw the Balrog hanging out on
>the other side of the gate, ready to open up a can of whup-ass on anyone
>who walked in. Now, that seems a little far-fetched. More likely, Dáin was
>simply stating the obvious. If the Balrog could take out Durin the Deathless
>and the Longbeards at the height of their power, there was no way that Thráin
>the one-eyed gimp and his band of decimated itinerant Dwarves could do
>anything about it.

I'm pretty sure he *did* see the Balrog. Why else would a brave young
Dwarf, fresh from slaying Azog, the goal of the whole war, be ashen?
"Yet hardy and full of wrath as he was, it is said, that when he came
down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt
great fear." I don't think any mere troll would have rattle Dain.

>[32] Do they wear other garb when NOT journeying? What does a
>dwarf-woman wear in the privacy of her home? Sexy negligees?

I would think something like that. After all, they're very dedicated
to their marriages when they have them and she'd make every effort to
keep the spark alive. Of course, a Dwarven negligee might be made of
thin chains of precious metals...

>[33] How would Gimli and Legolas have known whether or not the Valar
>would let Gimli in?

Gimli wouldn't have had that long left, anyway, so perhaps they
figured if the Straight Road wasn't open, they could find an island
and stay there for a couple of years until Gimli died and Legolas
could go on alone.

>Every Dwarf listed (except those who were killed) died between the
>ages of 242-261 except for Gimli who departed (not died) with
>Legolas at age 262

You see my point?

>With the exception of Durin, all of the names of the Kings are NEW
>after the Fall of Khazad-dûm.

Maybe they felt like a new start. How many non-Durins were there to
choose from in the first place? Did the lords of Khazad-dum take names
that made a reference to that place, making them unsuitable for the
Kings in exile?

>Why is Thorin III named "Stonehelm"?

See my suggestion above.

>It is likely that a small number of them survived and led in
>part to the various legends Men have
>had of Dwarves including The Abomination by that hack Disney.

At least they got a little dignity in Disney, unlike PJ's
comedy-relief Dwarf.

--
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com

Prai Jei

unread,
Jun 25, 2005, 11:16:34 AM6/25/05
to
Graham Lockwood (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<1119218663....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>:

> Beards being a notable feature of dwarf-men, it is logical that
> dwarf-women also have them.

Dwarflings also? Any evidence either way?

--
A couple of questions. How do I stop the wires short-circuiting, and what's
this nylon washer for?

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

Odysseus

unread,
Jun 25, 2005, 7:14:56 PM6/25/05
to
"R. Dan Henry" wrote:
>
> On 19 Jun 2005 15:04:23 -0700, "Graham Lockwood" <g...@yahoogroups.com>
> wrote:
>
[Dáin]

>
> >[25] Do we ever get an explanation for why his is "Ironfoot"?
>
> Probably his shoes.
>

I guessed it to be a metaphor for standing fast, or making a
courageous or obdurate defence. But I don't know of any explanation
by JRRT.

--
Odysseus

denaldo

unread,
Jun 26, 2005, 8:08:34 AM6/26/05
to
Odysseus wrote:

Maybe it was all those speeding tickets he got?


--
Dennis is currently having a passionate, if entirely
imaginary love affair with Susan Sto Helit of Discworld.
If you're looking for the spamtrap, get to the 'POINT'.

Michael Starosta

unread,
Jun 26, 2005, 9:08:58 AM6/26/05
to
Graham Lockwood <g...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> Why is Thorin III named "Stonehelm"?

Maybe he lost his helm and shield during the battle and held a stone
above his head to protect himself when he was attacked.

Staso
--
Schizophrenic? I'm bleeding quadrophenic.

Graham Lockwood

unread,
Jun 27, 2005, 6:02:58 PM6/27/05
to
Tar-Elenion wrote:
> In article <slrndbc14...@munin.Stanford.EDU>,
> em...@kanpai.stanford.edu says...
> > In article <1119218663....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> > > Graham Lockwood wrote:
{snip}

> > > [2] Just how old was he? The Silmarillion mentions Dwarves
> > > interacting with the Elves of Beleriand prior to the rising of the
> > > Sun & Moon. Gimli's song says "No stain yet on the moon was
> > > seen". How close to the end of the 1st Age did he come?
> >
> > Also when was the moon created in this version of the mythology.
>
> In LotR, as well as most post-LotR writings, including The Hobbit as
> revised, the Sun and the Moon an extant Sun and Moon are explicit or
> implicit, and were created long before the Elves awoke as part of
> creation of Arda.
> As it develops in the 'history', not the 'mythology', Dwarves woke after
> Men, and Men woke 'soon' after the Elves (IIRC, during the Great March
> is suggested).
{snip}

The question then becomes: when did the Moon develop its "stains" in
this version?

---
Graham

Graham Lockwood

unread,
Jun 27, 2005, 6:52:01 PM6/27/05
to
R. Dan Henry wrote:
> On 19 Jun 2005 15:04:23 -0700, "Graham Lockwood" <g...@yahoogroups.com>
{snip}

> >The Dwarves win the battle and stick Azog's head on a pike and thrust
> >the purse of small coins into its mouth.
>
> You'll notice they did take the purse and held on to it all this time.
> Dwarves don't let even pennies go easily.

But they then apparently left the bag in Azog's mouth. Presumably, they
didn't spend any of the money in it, making its monetary value to them
zero. They kept it only to spite Azog in death.

{snip}


> >[14] What happened to all the rest? Gandalf later seems paranoid about
> >the damage Smaug could have done, but surely all of those "lesser" dragons
> >could have done some damage too. Why didn't they? Did Sauron not have control
> >over them? If not, then why would he have had control over Smaug?
>
> None of the other dragons were as powerful or as active. Smaug may
> well have been the only flying, fire-breathing dragon left, which is
> the only kind that gets the WMD rating. It is also unclear how many
> lesser worms survive -- surely the Dwarves didn't lose every encounter
> and the occasional heroic Northman would want to make a name for
> himself. Also, Smaug may have been the only one with the resources and
> resourcefulness to make himself an armor for his underside.

But a dragon doesn't have to have "WMD" status to be dangerous. Dain I
and Fror were killed by a "cold drake" which I take to mean a dragon
without fire (although admitedly I don't remember hearing this as a
definition). And Glaurung caused quite a bit of damage without being
able to fly. Even without either flight or fire, a dragon is still a
REALLY BIG sentient evil monster that could cause considerable damage.

Additionally, IIRC (dont have the books with me) Gandalf said that the
fires of the dragons weren't as hot as they used to be (and so couldn't
be used to destroy Rings of Power), implying that the fires weren't
completely out.

{snip}


> >[22] How do we know what the Orcs do when they think about the battle?
>
> Spying, stories told by Men who surrendered after the fall of Sauron,
> interrogations of captured Orcs, observations by Dwarves who used
> "Azanulbizar" as a battle-cry.

Stories told by Men seems most likely to me. I doubt a Dwarf would be
able to "infiltrate" an Orc camp very well. And the sadness of the
Dwarves seems to make "Azanulbizar" an unlikely battle-cry.

{snip}


> >[25] Do we ever get an explanation for why his is "Ironfoot"?
>
> Probably his shoes.

He wears iron shoes? Doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun...

> >[26] I used to think that Dáin actually saw the Balrog hanging out on
> >the other side of the gate, ready to open up a can of whup-ass on anyone
> >who walked in. Now, that seems a little far-fetched. More likely, Dáin was
> >simply stating the obvious. If the Balrog could take out Durin the Deathless
> >and the Longbeards at the height of their power, there was no way that Thráin
> >the one-eyed gimp and his band of decimated itinerant Dwarves could do
> >anything about it.
>
> I'm pretty sure he *did* see the Balrog. Why else would a brave young
> Dwarf, fresh from slaying Azog, the goal of the whole war, be ashen?
> "Yet hardy and full of wrath as he was, it is said, that when he came
> down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt
> great fear." I don't think any mere troll would have rattle Dain.

Hmm, now I'm begining to swing back in that direction. OTOH, Dain WAS
quite young at the time and had never been in battle before, then he
saw his father die before his eyes and engaged in single combat with a
very large battle hardened Orc.

> >[32] Do they wear other garb when NOT journeying? What does a
> >dwarf-woman wear in the privacy of her home? Sexy negligees?
>
> I would think something like that. After all, they're very dedicated
> to their marriages when they have them and she'd make every effort to
> keep the spark alive. Of course, a Dwarven negligee might be made of
> thin chains of precious metals...

Sexy...

> >[33] How would Gimli and Legolas have known whether or not the Valar
> >would let Gimli in?
>
> Gimli wouldn't have had that long left, anyway, so perhaps they
> figured if the Straight Road wasn't open, they could find an island
> and stay there for a couple of years until Gimli died and Legolas
> could go on alone.

Likely, but the Appendix makes it sound like it was known that the
Valar would accept them but not WHY they would accept them.

{snip}


> Maybe they felt like a new start. How many non-Durins were there to
> choose from in the first place?

Quite a lot. Durin I died before the end of the First Age so that gives
over 6,000 years in between him and the Fall of Khazad-dum. At about
100 years for a reign, that gives over 60 non-Durins.

One possibility is that the Dwarves didn't start taking names in the
language that Tolkien translated as Old Norse until after the Fall when
they began hanging out with the Men around Erebor. However, there are
two problems with this.

One, I would assume that the "inner" names of Dwarves with the same
"outer" name would also be the same. For instance, I would assume that
Thorin I and Thorin II also shared the same "inner" name.

Two, Durin was apparently already known as Durin prior to the Fall (his
name is on the West Gate) and "Durin" is a Norse name. "Narvi" is also
a name from Norse mythology. However, we already know that the image
given of the West Gate in LotR is not accurate anyway (neither "Durin"
nor "Narvi" was written on it because they are NORSE, not ME Mannish
languages) so it might just be wrong in this as well.

>Did the lords of Khazad-dum take names
> that made a reference to that place, making them unsuitable for the
> Kings in exile?

See above. OTOH, their "Inner" names may have.

{snip}


> >It is likely that a small number of them survived and led in
> >part to the various legends Men have
> >had of Dwarves including The Abomination by that hack Disney.
>
> At least they got a little dignity in Disney, unlike PJ's
> comedy-relief Dwarf.

Yes, "Dopey" was quite dignified...

---
Graham

Yuk Tang

unread,
Jun 27, 2005, 7:53:21 PM6/27/05
to
"Graham Lockwood" <g-...@yahoogroups.com> wrote in
news:1119912721.2...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> R. Dan Henry wrote:
>> On 19 Jun 2005 15:04:23 -0700, "Graham Lockwood"
>> <g...@yahoogroups.com>
>
>> >[33] How would Gimli and Legolas have known whether or not the
>> >Valar would let Gimli in?
>>
>> Gimli wouldn't have had that long left, anyway, so perhaps they
>> figured if the Straight Road wasn't open, they could find an
>> island and stay there for a couple of years until Gimli died and
>> Legolas could go on alone.
>
> Likely, but the Appendix makes it sound like it was known that the
> Valar would accept them but not WHY they would accept them.

App B says that Gimli went with Legolas, but it doesn't say if Gimli
actually reached the deathless lands. I reckon Legolas took Gimli with
him when the latter insisted, then chucked him overboard when they were
out of sight of land. No difficult decisions to be made by the Valar.


--
Cheers, ymt.

John Jones

unread,
Jun 28, 2005, 1:58:23 PM6/28/05
to
"Graham Lockwood" <g-...@yahoogroups.com> wrote in message
news:1119909778.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> The question then becomes: when did the Moon develop its "stains" in
> this version?
>
Isn't it just that Gimli (or the original poet) was merely being poetic?

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Jun 29, 2005, 6:06:05 PM6/29/05
to

There are legends that purport to explain how the Moon received its
stains. But the problem is that this all tends to run into the tangle of
the changing cosmologies of Tolkien's world.

From /The Silmarillion/ we have:

"But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his
appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her
splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the
Moon was darkened." (Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor)

This is after the Noldor arrived in Beleriand (Fingolfin's host arrived
at the first rising of the Moon), and also after the awakening of Men
(at the first rising of the Sun).

I thought this meant that the date of Durin's awakening could be placed
between the creation of the Moon and this 'staining' of the Moon. Which
appears to be fairly early on in the history of the Sun and Moon. But
this fails because dwarves have been active in Beleriand for many years,
helping to delve Menegroth and make weapons for Thingol and his elves.

So in the end, it probably is poetic.
Emphasising the ancientry of Durin.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Christopher Kreuzer

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Jun 29, 2005, 6:18:53 PM6/29/05
to
Odysseus <odysseu...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
> "R. Dan Henry" wrote:
>> "Graham Lockwood" wrote:
>>
> [Dáin]
>>
>>> [25] Do we ever get an explanation for why his is "Ironfoot"?
>>
>> Probably his shoes.
>
> I guessed it to be a metaphor for standing fast, or making a
> courageous or obdurate defence. But I don't know of any explanation
> by JRRT.

I think the beginnings of an explanation can be found in /The Hobbit/ in
the bit where the arrival of Dain's army at Erebor is described (both
quotes from the chapter 'The Clouds Burst'):

"Each one of his folk was clad in a hauberk of steel mail that hung to
his knees, and his legs were covered with hose of a fine and flexible
metal mesh, the secret of whose making was possessed by Dain's people."

This alone might justify "Ironfoot", but later we read this:

"Their caps were of iron and they were shod with iron, and their faces
were grim."

Well, they were from the Iron Hills after all! And looking at the
history, the first time we read of Dain he is already Ironfoot, and has
come with his father Nain from the Iron Hills to the Battle of
Azanulbizar.

Tar-Elenion

unread,
Jun 29, 2005, 8:04:31 PM6/29/05
to
In article <hXEwe.59018$G8.2...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...

The passage indicates that there was a Moon when Durin woke. Later in
the song it notes that the lamps shone with light of sun and star and
moon. There is also Galadriel's song in Lorien where the Sun and Moon
are mentioned from a time that she was in Aman.
Even more clear is this passage from the Hobbit:
"The feasting people were Wood-elves, of course. These are not wicked
folk. If they have a fault it is distrust of strangers. Though their
magic was strong, even in those days they were wary. They differed from
the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For
most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and
mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to
Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the
Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more
learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft, in the making
of beautiful and marvellous things, before some came back into the Wide
World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our
Sun and Moon but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great
forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost."

Both LotR, and The Hobbit (as revised) support an extant sun and moon
long before their mythological creation from Fruit and Flower. Most of
the LotR and post texts support this either explicitly or implicitly.

The 'history' has Elves awakening followed by Men and then shortly
thereafter Dwarves. The 'mythology' has Men awakening only towards the
end of the First Age and Dwarves awakening long before them. LotR and
The Hobbit both support the 'history'.

Emma Pease

unread,
Jun 29, 2005, 8:45:33 PM6/29/05
to

Ironfoot might also be a title for him being exceptionally hardy when
it comes to long journeys. It is possible that both the journey to
Azunulzibar and to Erebor were done at quite a quick pace even by
Dwarvish standards.

Emma

R. Dan Henry

unread,
Jun 30, 2005, 12:37:16 AM6/30/05
to

Or to save words, it is the shoes.

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Jun 30, 2005, 5:02:29 PM6/30/05
to
R. Dan Henry <danh...@inreach.com> wrote:

> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>> "R. Dan Henry" wrote:
>>>> "Graham Lockwood" wrote:
>>>>
>>> [Dáin]
>>>>
>>>>> [25] Do we ever get an explanation for why his is "Ironfoot"?
>>>>
>>>> Probably his shoes.

<snip cites from /The Hobbit/>

> Or to save words, it is the shoes.

You said "probably". The words were cites from the text.

Anyway, if you want to save words, you'll need this.

<hands over large pair of scissors>

:-)

Larry Swain

unread,
Jun 30, 2005, 6:34:50 PM6/30/05
to

One place in which one can see mostly clearly the influence of what
Tolkien studied and taught on LoTR. Appendix B is not just a convenient
rendering in order of the material in Appendix A. It is in fact a
"chronicle", a form of literature and history that took the form of
year: important events. The most famous, and a work known very well by
Tolkien in his professional life, is the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. That
work is very similar in shape to Appendix B: The Tale of Years.

Tolkien begins with a summary of the 3 ages. This too is an influence
of his professional life. In the Middle Ages, especially since Bede,
history was divided into ages from the creation of the world to the
present. In Bede's schema, there were 8 with Bede and his
contemporaries living in the sixth age (the 8th btw was a "coterminus"
age that ran simultaneously with the first six and where the souls of
the saved resided until the 7th age.) awaiting the Second Coming to
usher in the final, seventh, eternal age. Tolkien's four ages is
certainly inspired by this if not parallel with it.

Each age ends with a cataclysmic war. The first age is said to have
ended with the Great Battle. The hosts of Valinor overthrew Morgoth,
destroyed his stronghold in the North, and Morgoth was cast out of the
circles of the world. Most of the Noldor went back to the Blessed
Realm, but there were those who remained in Middle Earth.

The Second Age ended with the Last Alliance of Men and Elves against
Sauron in which Isildur took the Ring and Sauron's hand, but destroyed
neither.

The Third Age ended with the War of the Ring. But there seems to be a
gap between the end of the Third Age and the beginning of the Fourth,
the latter thought to have begun when Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf
depart Middle Earth with the Ring Bearer.

With the Fourth Age, the time of Men had begun and the decline of the
other peoples of Middle Earth.

The history of the First Age is not recorded in the Tale of Years.

The Second Age was a dark time for Middle Earth but a glorious time for
the Houses of Men, the Numenoreans. In the beginning of the age, many
of the Noldor yet remained, mostly dwelling at Lindon; others went east
and established kingdoms in Greenwood the Great and other forests.
Later other Noldor went to Eregion, to Hollin, near the western gate of
Moria when elves and dwarves dwelled happily in peace.

Rather than list or try to summarize each entry, or even include all of
the entries for the Second Age, I will instead try to hit the highlights
in narrative fashion.

In the first year of the Second Age the Grey Havens and Lindon were
established. The Grey Havens is that place from which the elves of
MIddle Earth set sail for the utter West. In the year 32, the houses of
men, the Edain, who had assisted the elves against Morgoth reached the
island of Numenor. All manner of thing seemed well, Numenor prospered,
Lindon and the other elven kingdoms prospered. Around 500 Sauron, who
had promised at the overthrow of Morgoth to be a good guy, turn over a
new leaf, and present himself in Valinor, saw that the Ainur left Middle
Earth to its own devices. He began to stir and return to his master's
ways. About 100 years later, the first ships of the Numenoreans
appeared on the coasts of Middle Earth. Around 1000 of the Second Age
Sauron establishes Mordor as his stronghold, begins building Barad-dur,
in part in reaction to the growing power and influence of Numenor. At
first Sauron seemed fair, even at 1200 he is able to seduce some of the
Eldar of Eregion, although Gilgalad of Lindon and Elrond refuse to deal
with him. Sauron teaches the elven smiths and around SA 1500 they reach
the apex of their skill and begin to forge the Rings of Power. About
1590 the Three Elven rings are complete in Eregion. Shortly after
Sauron forges the One Ring, completes Barad-dur, but he is discovered.
Celembrimbor, wearing one of the 3, perceives Sauron's thought. About
1693 the War of the Elves and Sauron begins and the Three are hidden.
Eregion is ruined when Sauron invades; Gilgalad sends Elrond to Eregion
and in 1697 with Hollin in ruins, the gates of Moria now shut and
Durin's Bane awakened, Elrond retreats and founds Imladris, called in
The Hobbit the Last Lonely House, and how true that must have seemed in
the ruin of SA 1697. With Elrond's retreat there was none to resist
Sauron's overrun and ruining of Eregion in toto. Sauron then moved on
Gilgalad and Lindon, but in 1700 Sauron was defeated with help from the
Numenoreans sent by Tar-Minastir. A year later Sauron is run out of
Eregion and there is a long peace in the West.

SInce about 1200 the Numenoreans had established colonies in Middle
Earth and by 1800 these became dominions and kingdoms. In the century
since the war Sauron also had not been quiet but was extending his power
eastwards. At this time, too, the Numenoreans begin to envy the elves'
immortality and the Ban on sailing West from Numenor to Valinor begins
to chafe.

In 2251 Tar-Atanamire becomes king in Numenor. And from this time on,
rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins. It is also about this
time that Sauron's most dangerous servants appear: the Nazgul, the Nine
Ringwraiths. Over the next few years the coastlands of Middle Earth are
made Numenorean fortresses. In 3175, Civil War breaks out in Numenor.

IN 3255 Ar-Pharazon takes the sceptre; he comes to Umbar in 3261,
battles Sauron and take Sauron as prisoner to Numenor in 3262. Over the
next 50 years, Sauron seduces the king and begins to corrupt the
Numenoreans. In 3310 Ar-Pharazon begins building a vast navy and in
3319 he sets sail for Valinor with the intention of taking immortality.
The moment he sets foot on land, the mountains fall and he and his men
are swallowed by the earth. A great wave comes and swallows his ships.
A chasm opens and swallows Numenor. Only the faithful with Elendil
and his sons escape to Middle Earth.

Elendil establishes the realms of Numenor in Exile in Middle Earth,
Arnor and Gondor in 3320, spreading the palantir to various strategic
plalcs. Sauron is alarmed after his escape from Numenor's downfall,
not expecting the reaction that Numenor's rebellion caused. In this
downfall he lost the ability to take on a pleasing form. In 3329 he
attacks Gondor, takes the city of Minas Ithil, now called Minas Morgul,
and burns the White Tree. In 3330 the Last Alliance of Men and Elves is
forged by Gil-galad and Elendil and three years later the gathered
forces cross the Misty Mountains. At Dagorlad there was a great battle,
and though Elendil and Gil-galad died fighting Sauron, Sauron himself
was defeated. Isildur took the One Ring from Sauron's finger and kept
it as wergild and remembrance of his father. Sauron slicks off to
gather his strength and the Ringwraiths into hiding. The end of the
Second Age.

Discussion Points:

1) It is interesting that the last half of the chronicle says very
little about the elves and elvish kingdoms, from 1700 onward. Why? Did
nothing happen in Lindon, Lothlorien, the Greenwood?

2) Very little is said of the dwarves as well. Why?

3) Since the Elves and the question of the Rings figure so little in the
events of the second half of the age, and really into the Third Age,
could one not argue that from the mid-second age onward is the age of
men and the decline of the other peoples? The elves that are left
remain within their kingdoms, the great dwarvish realms are gone, no
mention of ents or eagles....are these not the fading years?

4) Why does Elrond retreat to Imladris rather than back to Lindon?

5) A question perhaps for the Third Age, but why is Lindon so
insignificant after the Last Alliance? Did Lindon depopulate? Move to
Imladris? It seems only the Grey Havens remain.

Aurious

unread,
Jun 30, 2005, 6:50:03 PM6/30/05
to
Likely, but the Appendix makes it sound like it was known that the
Valar would accept them but not WHY they would accept them.

My assumption would be that Aule wouldnt mind at all, and Gimli's
tolerance for elves is substantial, his help in the war, and the fact
that a hobbit has already left would be some reason for letting him
come, even if it is only tol erresa

Graham Lockwood

unread,
Jun 30, 2005, 8:01:12 PM6/30/05
to
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:50:03 -0500, Aurious wrote
(in article <1120171802.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>):

Graham Lockwood said:
> Likely, but the Appendix makes it sound like it was known that the
> Valar would accept them but not WHY they would accept them.

Aurious said:
> My assumption would be that Aule wouldnt mind at all, and Gimli's
> tolerance for elves is substantial, his help in the war, and the fact
> that a hobbit has already left would be some reason for letting him
> come, even if it is only tol erresa

Those are all good reasons for accepting Gimli, but my initial question
was how anyone in ME could have the knowledge that the Valar would
accept him.

Also, when quoting someone, it's nice to include at least an
attribution and (even better) some means of setting off their text from
yours.

---
Graham

Emma Pease

unread,
Jun 30, 2005, 8:55:04 PM6/30/05
to
In article <xr-dneXyKdg...@rcn.net>, Larry Swain wrote:
...

> The history of the First Age is not recorded in the Tale of Years.
>
> The Second Age was a dark time for Middle Earth but a glorious time for
> the Houses of Men, the Numenoreans. In the beginning of the age, many
> of the Noldor yet remained, mostly dwelling at Lindon; others went east
> and established kingdoms in Greenwood the Great and other forests.
> Later other Noldor went to Eregion, to Hollin, near the western gate of
> Moria when elves and dwarves dwelled happily in peace.

I thought it was the Sindar who established a realm in Greenwood the
Great. Hmm,

Lindon - Both Noldor and Sindar.
Eregion - Noldor
Greenwood - Sindar

...


> Discussion Points:
>
> 1) It is interesting that the last half of the chronicle says very
> little about the elves and elvish kingdoms, from 1700 onward. Why? Did
> nothing happen in Lindon, Lothlorien, the Greenwood?

The Tale of Years was written by men so mostly concerned with men
especially the men of Gondor and Arnor. Elves show up only when their
actions affect men (or will affect men hence the noting of Elrond's
marriage, the birth of his children in particular of Arwen, the future
queen of Gondor).

We know that Galadriel does a fair bit of moving around though that is
not obvious from this listing.

> 2) Very little is said of the dwarves as well. Why?

Same.

> 3) Since the Elves and the question of the Rings figure so little in the
> events of the second half of the age, and really into the Third Age,
> could one not argue that from the mid-second age onward is the age of
> men and the decline of the other peoples? The elves that are left
> remain within their kingdoms, the great dwarvish realms are gone, no
> mention of ents or eagles....are these not the fading years?

I think Moria was quite powerful until well into the Third Age. We
know little of the other Dwarvish kingdoms except those that were in
the Blue Mountains and mostly destroyed at the end of the first age.

> 4) Why does Elrond retreat to Imladris rather than back to Lindon?

Cut off. Wanting to establish a place where if Sauran attacked Lindon
he could hit him in the back.

> 5) A question perhaps for the Third Age, but why is Lindon so
> insignificant after the Last Alliance? Did Lindon depopulate? Move to
> Imladris? It seems only the Grey Havens remain.

Most of the elves left for the blessed realm so their numbers just
weren't there. I suspect by the time of the War of the Ring that only
Celeborn and Thranduil could field armies.

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Jun 30, 2005, 9:37:36 PM6/30/05
to
Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:

[Appendix B, Second Age Tale of Years]

<snip>

> We know that Galadriel does a fair bit of moving around though that is
> not obvious from this listing.

And this moving around appears to have been written into Galadriel's
story _after_ LotR was written. There are traces of earlier versions of
the story in the main text of LotR, as Christopher Tolkien points out in
the UT section on the history of Galadriel and Celeborn.

"He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with
him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I
passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we
have fought the long defeat." (Lothlorien)

This is said to be a direct remnant of the version of the story where
Galadriel passes east from Beleriand on her _own_ (hence the use of _I_
in the 'I passed over the mountains' bit) and came to the land of Lorien
where Celeborn was Lord.

Which directly contradicts the Appendix B bit where Celeborn is said to
originate from west of the Ered Luin:

"In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of
Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women." (Appendix B)

And Christopher Tolkien also points out that: "the absence of any
indication to the contrary in /The Lord of the Rings/ had led
commentators to the natural assumption that Galadriel and Celeborn
passed the latter half of the Second Age and all the Third in
Lothlorien; but this was not so..."

>> 4) Why does Elrond retreat to Imladris rather than back to Lindon?

This is explained in UT. In fact, a lot of Second Age history is given
there with the history of Galadriel and Celeborn. Including the building
of the great Numenorean haven of Lond Daer, and what happened to the
squirrel that tried to go from Fangorn to the Old Forest (well, sort
of).

Fascinating reading.

Michael Ikeda

unread,
Jul 1, 2005, 5:34:52 AM7/1/05
to
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:F5Zwe.59738$G8.3...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:

> R. Dan Henry <danh...@inreach.com> wrote:
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> "R. Dan Henry" wrote:
>>>>> "Graham Lockwood" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> [Dáin]
>>>>>
>>>>>> [25] Do we ever get an explanation for why his is "Ironfoot"?
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably his shoes.
>
> <snip cites from /The Hobbit/>
>
>> Or to save words, it is the shoes.
>
> You said "probably". The words were cites from the text.
>
> Anyway, if you want to save words, you'll need this.
>
> <hands over large pair of scissors>
>

Iron scissors, of course...

AC

unread,
Jul 2, 2005, 12:11:31 AM7/2/05
to
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:34:50 -0500,
Larry Swain <thes...@operamail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Discussion Points:
>
> 1) It is interesting that the last half of the chronicle says very
> little about the elves and elvish kingdoms, from 1700 onward. Why? Did
> nothing happen in Lindon, Lothlorien, the Greenwood?

I suspect that these chronicles might be based off of Numenorean accounts,
and thus there would be little information of the Elvish realms.

>
> 2) Very little is said of the dwarves as well. Why?

Secretive people who didn't talk much about their own affairs.

>
> 3) Since the Elves and the question of the Rings figure so little in the
> events of the second half of the age, and really into the Third Age,
> could one not argue that from the mid-second age onward is the age of
> men and the decline of the other peoples? The elves that are left
> remain within their kingdoms, the great dwarvish realms are gone, no
> mention of ents or eagles....are these not the fading years?

Not really, as Sauron was in the ascendency again, and the Istari were sent
to work against them as they could. Men were gaining dominance, but were
not dominant yet.

>
> 4) Why does Elrond retreat to Imladris rather than back to Lindon?

Perhaps he wanted to be a little closer to the action, or he just liked his
own turf.

>
> 5) A question perhaps for the Third Age, but why is Lindon so
> insignificant after the Last Alliance? Did Lindon depopulate? Move to
> Imladris? It seems only the Grey Havens remain.

I suspect that it was depopulated. Likely many of the remaining Exiles
departed, and those that didn't went to Imaldris.

--
mightym...@hotmail.com

AC

unread,
Jul 2, 2005, 11:52:31 AM7/2/05
to
On 30 Jun 2005 17:01:12 -0700,
Graham Lockwood <g-...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:50:03 -0500, Aurious wrote
> (in article <1120171802.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>):
> Graham Lockwood said:
>> Likely, but the Appendix makes it sound like it was known that the
>> Valar would accept them but not WHY they would accept them.
>
> Aurious said:
>> My assumption would be that Aule wouldnt mind at all, and Gimli's
>> tolerance for elves is substantial, his help in the war, and the fact
>> that a hobbit has already left would be some reason for letting him
>> come, even if it is only tol erresa
>
> Those are all good reasons for accepting Gimli, but my initial question
> was how anyone in ME could have the knowledge that the Valar would
> accept him.

Cirdan perhaps?

--
mightym...@hotmail.com

AC

unread,
Jul 2, 2005, 11:52:09 AM7/2/05
to
On 30 Jun 2005 15:50:03 -0700,

I imagine Galadriel had no small part in this as well. Beyond that, do we
really know if the same technical restriction applied to Dwarves as it did
to Men?

--
mightym...@hotmail.com

Larry Swain

unread,
Jul 3, 2005, 2:28:00 PM7/3/05
to

Emma Pease wrote:

> In article <xr-dneXyKdg...@rcn.net>, Larry Swain wrote:
> ...
>
>>The history of the First Age is not recorded in the Tale of Years.
>>
>>The Second Age was a dark time for Middle Earth but a glorious time for
>>the Houses of Men, the Numenoreans. In the beginning of the age, many
>>of the Noldor yet remained, mostly dwelling at Lindon; others went east
>>and established kingdoms in Greenwood the Great and other forests.
>>Later other Noldor went to Eregion, to Hollin, near the western gate of
>>Moria when elves and dwarves dwelled happily in peace.
>
>
> I thought it was the Sindar who established a realm in Greenwood the
> Great. Hmm,
>
> Lindon - Both Noldor and Sindar.
> Eregion - Noldor
> Greenwood - Sindar


Yes, quite right. My text should read "others of the High Elves went
east..." trying to reflect the following statements succinctly: "In the
beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of
these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of
the Barad-dur many of the Sindar passed eastward...." Guess i was too
succinct and created confusion. Thanks for pointing it out.

> ...
>
>>Discussion Points:
>>
>>1) It is interesting that the last half of the chronicle says very
>>little about the elves and elvish kingdoms, from 1700 onward. Why? Did
>>nothing happen in Lindon, Lothlorien, the Greenwood?
>
>
> The Tale of Years was written by men so mostly concerned with men
> especially the men of Gondor and Arnor.

Was it? It doesn't say that in the text. It is interesting though that
Appendix A reflects some of the same foci: we don't have a section on
the elves in that appendix.


Elves show up only when their
> actions affect men (or will affect men hence the noting of Elrond's
> marriage, the birth of his children in particular of Arwen, the future
> queen of Gondor).
>
> We know that Galadriel does a fair bit of moving around though that is
> not obvious from this listing.

Right, the only mention of her in the Tale of Years for the Second Age
is at the beginning speaking of the Elven realms.

>
>>2) Very little is said of the dwarves as well. Why?
>
>
> Same.

If we assume though that Appendix A and Appendix B have the same sources
and come ultimately from Gondor and Imladris to Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam
then one would expect some mention of the Dwarves here I would think.


>
>
>>3) Since the Elves and the question of the Rings figure so little in the
>>events of the second half of the age, and really into the Third Age,
>>could one not argue that from the mid-second age onward is the age of
>>men and the decline of the other peoples? The elves that are left
>>remain within their kingdoms, the great dwarvish realms are gone, no
>>mention of ents or eagles....are these not the fading years?
>
>
> I think Moria was quite powerful until well into the Third Age. We
> know little of the other Dwarvish kingdoms except those that were in
> the Blue Mountains and mostly destroyed at the end of the first age.
>

I don't know about powerful, but Appendix A Durin's Folk does tell us
that the gates were shut and that Moria endured during the age. But no
mention of this is made in the Tale of Years. One could posit that
since Moria was shut, there were no records of those years, and what
dwarfish records there were that survived to the end of the TA were oral
and not spoken to outsiders.

>>4) Why does Elrond retreat to Imladris rather than back to Lindon?
>
>
> Cut off. Wanting to establish a place where if Sauran attacked Lindon
> he could hit him in the back.
>
>
>>5) A question perhaps for the Third Age, but why is Lindon so
>>insignificant after the Last Alliance? Did Lindon depopulate? Move to
>>Imladris? It seems only the Grey Havens remain.
>
>
> Most of the elves left for the blessed realm so their numbers just
> weren't there. I suspect by the time of the War of the Ring that only
> Celeborn and Thranduil could field armies.
>

Ok, sure, but one would think that this is the place that all elves
would want to see protected, particularly after the changing of the
world. Just a thought.

Larry Swain

unread,
Jul 3, 2005, 2:29:50 PM7/3/05
to

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

>
>>>4) Why does Elrond retreat to Imladris rather than back to Lindon?
>
>
> This is explained in UT. In fact, a lot of Second Age history is given
> there with the history of Galadriel and Celeborn. Including the building
> of the great Numenorean haven of Lond Daer, and what happened to the
> squirrel that tried to go from Fangorn to the Old Forest (well, sort
> of).
>
> Fascinating reading.

Hey Christopher,

Yes, I know it is in UT. Frankly I was having some difficulty coming up
with discussion points that hadn't already been covered in discussions
on Appendix A's coverage of the Second Age. But I was hoping for some
speculative discussion rather than recourse to UT right away....

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Jul 3, 2005, 5:28:09 PM7/3/05
to
Larry Swain <thes...@operamail.com> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

>>> Larry Swain wrote:
>>>
>>>> 4) Why does Elrond retreat to Imladris rather than back to Lindon?
>>
>> This is explained in UT.

<snip>

> Yes, I know it is in UT. Frankly I was having some difficulty coming
> up with discussion points that hadn't already been covered in
> discussions on Appendix A's coverage of the Second Age. But I was
> hoping for some speculative discussion rather than recourse to UT
> right away....

Oh. Right. Well, my speculation would be that Imladris is nearer than
Lindon and easier to reach. Also, Elrond was a master strategist who
realised that (eventually) reinforcements from Lindon, plus any landings
from the Numenoreans at Lond Daer (or rather at Tharbad), would leave
Sauron's forces exposed on three sides: from the south (Tharbad); from
the west (Lindon) and from the North (Imladris).

With hindsight, and using UT, we can see that my 'speculations' are
correct! :-)

What I'd like to know is more details. Did Elrond already know that
there was a large valley suitable to retreat to? How did he manage to
retreat without Sauron's forces following? Maybe there was a desperate
rearguard of Eregion Elves (unwilling to leave their homeland) who held
firm and stopped the advance of Sauron's forces, allowing Elrond and his
forces to escape to the north. Much like Huor and Hurin stood firm at
the Fen of Serech and allowed Turgon and his forces to retreat to
Gondolin.

Christoper

Emma Pease

unread,
Jul 4, 2005, 5:16:41 PM7/4/05
to
In article <h9idnXM-Pbm...@rcn.net>, Larry Swain wrote:
>
>
> Emma Pease wrote:
>
>> In article <xr-dneXyKdg...@rcn.net>, Larry Swain wrote:
>> ...
>>>Discussion Points:
>>>
>>>1) It is interesting that the last half of the chronicle says very
>>>little about the elves and elvish kingdoms, from 1700 onward. Why? Did
>>>nothing happen in Lindon, Lothlorien, the Greenwood?
>>
>>
>> The Tale of Years was written by men so mostly concerned with men
>> especially the men of Gondor and Arnor.
>
> Was it? It doesn't say that in the text. It is interesting though that
> Appendix A reflects some of the same foci: we don't have a section on
> the elves in that appendix.


> Elves show up only when their
>> actions affect men (or will affect men hence the noting of Elrond's
>> marriage, the birth of his children in particular of Arwen, the future
>> queen of Gondor).
>>
>> We know that Galadriel does a fair bit of moving around though that is
>> not obvious from this listing.
>
> Right, the only mention of her in the Tale of Years for the Second Age
> is at the beginning speaking of the Elven realms.
>
>>
>>>2) Very little is said of the dwarves as well. Why?
>>
>>
>> Same.
>
> If we assume though that Appendix A and Appendix B have the same sources
> and come ultimately from Gondor and Imladris to Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam
> then one would expect some mention of the Dwarves here I would think.

I think the Appendices were not for the most part written by Bilbo or
Frodo but added later. Some by Sam, a fair chunk by Merry (who seems
the most scholarly of the remaining hobbits) and a bit by men of
Gondor (I believe it is explicitly stated that the tale of Arwen and
Aragorn was added by a scribe of Gondor).

I suspect for history they mostly looked towards Gondor as the easiest
source. For that matter elves might have been good at general history
but not so accurate on actual dates.


>>>3) Since the Elves and the question of the Rings figure so little in the
>>>events of the second half of the age, and really into the Third Age,
>>>could one not argue that from the mid-second age onward is the age of
>>>men and the decline of the other peoples? The elves that are left
>>>remain within their kingdoms, the great dwarvish realms are gone, no
>>>mention of ents or eagles....are these not the fading years?
>>
>>
>> I think Moria was quite powerful until well into the Third Age. We
>> know little of the other Dwarvish kingdoms except those that were in
>> the Blue Mountains and mostly destroyed at the end of the first age.
>>
>
> I don't know about powerful, but Appendix A Durin's Folk does tell us
> that the gates were shut and that Moria endured during the age. But no
> mention of this is made in the Tale of Years. One could posit that
> since Moria was shut, there were no records of those years, and what
> dwarfish records there were that survived to the end of the TA were oral
> and not spoken to outsiders.

I agree that Dwarvish records might have been secretive but they also
on the whole weren't relevant to the end of the third age or to the
situation in the Shire or in Gondor/Arnor (with the exception of the
quest to Erebor and the events leading up to it because of the
discovery of the ring by Bilbo).

My own out of left field question is when Aragorn forbids men to enter
the Shire did he also forbid Dwarves from entering?

>>>4) Why does Elrond retreat to Imladris rather than back to Lindon?
>>
>>
>> Cut off. Wanting to establish a place where if Sauran attacked Lindon
>> he could hit him in the back.
>>
>>
>>>5) A question perhaps for the Third Age, but why is Lindon so
>>>insignificant after the Last Alliance? Did Lindon depopulate? Move to
>>>Imladris? It seems only the Grey Havens remain.
>>
>>
>> Most of the elves left for the blessed realm so their numbers just
>> weren't there. I suspect by the time of the War of the Ring that only
>> Celeborn and Thranduil could field armies.
>>
> Ok, sure, but one would think that this is the place that all elves
> would want to see protected, particularly after the changing of the
> world. Just a thought.

They may have had enough for defensive but not for any action at a
distance and the very fact that it was a bolt hole for the elves may
have made the elves there reluctant to take any action elsewhere.

R. Dan Henry

unread,
Jul 7, 2005, 3:57:25 AM7/7/05
to
On 27 Jun 2005 15:52:01 -0700, "Graham Lockwood"
<g-...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>R. Dan Henry wrote:
>> On 19 Jun 2005 15:04:23 -0700, "Graham Lockwood" <g...@yahoogroups.com>
>{snip}
>> >The Dwarves win the battle and stick Azog's head on a pike and thrust
>> >the purse of small coins into its mouth.
>>
>> You'll notice they did take the purse and held on to it all this time.
>> Dwarves don't let even pennies go easily.
>
>But they then apparently left the bag in Azog's mouth. Presumably, they
>didn't spend any of the money in it, making its monetary value to them
>zero. They kept it only to spite Azog in death.

A bargain at twice the price!

>{snip}
>> >[14] What happened to all the rest? Gandalf later seems paranoid about
>> >the damage Smaug could have done, but surely all of those "lesser" dragons
>> >could have done some damage too. Why didn't they? Did Sauron not have control
>> >over them? If not, then why would he have had control over Smaug?
>>
>> None of the other dragons were as powerful or as active. Smaug may
>> well have been the only flying, fire-breathing dragon left, which is
>> the only kind that gets the WMD rating. It is also unclear how many
>> lesser worms survive -- surely the Dwarves didn't lose every encounter
>> and the occasional heroic Northman would want to make a name for
>> himself. Also, Smaug may have been the only one with the resources and
>> resourcefulness to make himself an armor for his underside.
>
>But a dragon doesn't have to have "WMD" status to be dangerous. Dain I
>and Fror were killed by a "cold drake" which I take to mean a dragon
>without fire (although admitedly I don't remember hearing this as a
>definition). And Glaurung caused quite a bit of damage without being
>able to fly. Even without either flight or fire, a dragon is still a
>REALLY BIG sentient evil monster that could cause considerable damage.

But each one is a significant investment to locate, wake up, and put
into the field. Smaug was easy to find, reasonably active, and
probably could be convinced to take out a few thousand acres with a
suitable bribe. Heck, Smaug might even have been set up as a vassal of
Sauron, with Dwarven slaves to mine him even more wealth. But don't
underestimate the importance of flight. It isn't just a huge tactical
advantage, it allows very swift strategic deployment and combined with
fire, allows a single creature to do damage over a large territory
before a defense can even be organized. Imagine Laketown being strafed
by Smaug a few times and then he moves on to torch the Wood Elves
realm before they can be alerted, while orcish archers await the
refugees on the shores. In less than an hour, Smaug would overcome
defenses that could take an army weeks to deal with. Not possible
without flight to go right over the big moat. Not possible without
fire to unleash a weapon that keeps spreading destruction on its own.

>Additionally, IIRC (dont have the books with me) Gandalf said that the
>fires of the dragons weren't as hot as they used to be (and so couldn't
>be used to destroy Rings of Power), implying that the fires weren't
>completely out.

At least, so far as he knows.

>{snip}
>> >[22] How do we know what the Orcs do when they think about the battle?
>>
>> Spying, stories told by Men who surrendered after the fall of Sauron,
>> interrogations of captured Orcs, observations by Dwarves who used
>> "Azanulbizar" as a battle-cry.
>
>Stories told by Men seems most likely to me. I doubt a Dwarf would be
>able to "infiltrate" an Orc camp very well.

I didn't say Dwarf-spies, although I imagine they'd do better than
most sneaking through underground orc-warrens. Remember that the
Dwarves were only noisy and clumsy in comparison to Bilbo's
hobbit-stealth. There's no reason to think they were worse at sneaking
than Men are.

>And the sadness of the
>Dwarves seems to make "Azanulbizar" an unlikely battle-cry.

"Remember the Alamo/the Maine/Pearl Harbor!" Reminders of grievances
to fire up the rage are pretty basic battle cry stuff.

>> >[25] Do we ever get an explanation for why his is "Ironfoot"?
>>
>> Probably his shoes.
>
>He wears iron shoes? Doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun...

Especially if he kicks you.

>> >[33] How would Gimli and Legolas have known whether or not the Valar
>> >would let Gimli in?
>>
>> Gimli wouldn't have had that long left, anyway, so perhaps they
>> figured if the Straight Road wasn't open, they could find an island
>> and stay there for a couple of years until Gimli died and Legolas
>> could go on alone.
>
>Likely, but the Appendix makes it sound like it was known that the
>Valar would accept them but not WHY they would accept them.

The Appendix makes it clear that it isn't certain that Gimli even
*did* go with Legolas. Maybe he just quietly died about the same time
and a rumor got started. The author of the Appendix clearly finds the
notion somewhat puzzling himself.

>>Did the lords of Khazad-dum take names
>> that made a reference to that place, making them unsuitable for the
>> Kings in exile?
>
>See above. OTOH, their "Inner" names may have.

Well, a public name like "Mithril-Crafter" or "Eregion-Pal" (okay,
silly examples, but is "South-Conqueror" any better rendered in
English?) would have been appropriate in Khazad-dum, but not in later
years. That's what I meant.

R. Dan Henry

unread,
Jul 16, 2005, 1:24:34 PM7/16/05
to
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:34:50 -0500, Larry Swain
<thes...@operamail.com> wrote:

>Eregion is ruined when Sauron invades; Gilgalad sends Elrond to Eregion
>and in 1697 with Hollin in ruins, the gates of Moria now shut and
>Durin's Bane awakened,

Given that Durin's Bane doesn't do anything for thousands of years
after this, I'd say if he was awakened then, he went back to sleep.

AC

unread,
Jul 16, 2005, 1:57:29 PM7/16/05
to

He seemed to let the Orcs run rampant though.

--
mightym...@hotmail.com

Jette Goldie

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Jul 16, 2005, 2:44:31 PM7/16/05
to

"AC" <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:slrnddiikf.f8i....@the.spanish.inquisition...


He's quite a heavy sleeper, normally.

--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/


R. Dan Henry

unread,
Jul 16, 2005, 9:53:08 PM7/16/05
to

Thousands of years later. He kills Durin in 1980 of the *Third* Age.
The Gates of Moria were closed against Sauron in Eregion in 1697 S.A.
The Dwarves continued to flourish in Moria for more than three
thousand years between these events.

AC

unread,
Jul 17, 2005, 12:07:26 AM7/17/05
to
On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:44:31 GMT,
Jette Goldie <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>
> "AC" <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:slrnddiikf.f8i....@the.spanish.inquisition...
>> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:24:34 -0700,
>> R Dan Henry <danh...@inreach.com> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:34:50 -0500, Larry Swain
>> ><thes...@operamail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Eregion is ruined when Sauron invades; Gilgalad sends Elrond to
> Eregion
>> >>and in 1697 with Hollin in ruins, the gates of Moria now shut and
>> >>Durin's Bane awakened,
>> >
>> > Given that Durin's Bane doesn't do anything for thousands of years
>> > after this, I'd say if he was awakened then, he went back to
> sleep.
>>
>> He seemed to let the Orcs run rampant though.
>
>
> He's quite a heavy sleeper, normally.

Or simply extremely unambitious.

--
mightym...@hotmail.com

Een Wilde Ier

unread,
Jul 17, 2005, 6:56:13 AM7/17/05
to

An under-achiever?

denaldo

unread,
Jul 17, 2005, 8:06:19 AM7/17/05
to

He may simply have been ill. I understand he was running a
high temperature at the time.


--
Dennis is currently having a passionate, if entirely
imaginary love affair with Susan Sto Helit of Discworld.
If you're looking for the spamtrap, get to the 'POINT'.

Een Wilde Ier

unread,
Jul 17, 2005, 9:03:59 AM7/17/05
to
denaldo wrote:
> Een Wilde Ier wrote:
>
>> AC wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:44:31 GMT, Jette Goldie
>>> <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "AC" <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:slrnddiikf.f8i....@the.spanish.inquisition...
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:24:34 -0700,
>>>>> R Dan Henry <danh...@inreach.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:34:50 -0500, Larry Swain
>>>>>> <thes...@operamail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eregion is ruined when Sauron invades; Gilgalad sends Elrond to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eregion
>>>>
>>>>>>> and in 1697 with Hollin in ruins, the gates of Moria now shut and
>>>>>>> Durin's Bane awakened,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that Durin's Bane doesn't do anything for thousands of years
>>>>>> after this, I'd say if he was awakened then, he went back to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> sleep.
>>>>
>>>>> He seemed to let the Orcs run rampant though.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> He's quite a heavy sleeper, normally.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Or simply extremely unambitious.
>>
>>
>>
>> An under-achiever?
>
>
> He may simply have been ill. I understand he was running a
> high temperature at the time.

A *likely* story.

jsb...@yahoo.com

unread,
Jul 20, 2005, 8:45:43 AM7/20/05
to
Did the Balrog personally kill Durin? Did JRRT write details of the
encounter?

the softrat

unread,
Jul 20, 2005, 2:45:46 PM7/20/05
to
On 20 Jul 2005 05:45:43 -0700, jsb...@yahoo.com wrote:

>Did the Balrog personally kill Durin?

Dunno.

> Did JRRT write details of the encounter?

Not AFAIK.

Have a N.I.C.E. day!

the softrat
Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Visualize using your turn signal.

Huan the hound

unread,
Jul 20, 2005, 9:19:32 PM7/20/05
to
On 2005-07-20, the softrat <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in
<9s6td19gegqdb1ft3...@4ax.com>:

> Have a N.I.C.E. day!

What kind of day is that? Are you making a Lewis reference?

--
Huan, the hound of Valinor

Morgoth's Curse

unread,
Oct 6, 2010, 7:16:04 PM10/6/10
to
The Dead Thread Faction strikes again!

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:34:50 -0500, Larry Swain
<thes...@operamail.com> wrote:

>Discussion Points:
>
>1) It is interesting that the last half of the chronicle says very
>little about the elves and elvish kingdoms, from 1700 onward. Why? Did
>nothing happen in Lindon, Lothlorien, the Greenwood?

In addition to the other excellent points already raised by
others in this thread, it should be pointed out that the contents of
the Red Book were derived primarily from accounts written by the
Noldor and men. As far as I recall, the Sindar had little use for
written records as Tolkien noted in the Silmarillion ("but they were
little used by the Sindar for the keeping of records, until the days
of the War, and much that was held in memory perished in the ruins of
Doriath.")
Another factor to consider is that Elves were estranged from men
except for those of the three houses of the Edain (and most of those
had either perished or emigrated to Numenor.) Hence, the surviving
Elven realms would have had few dealings with men and little to
record.


>
>2) Very little is said of the dwarves as well. Why?

The greatest works of the Dwarves had already been completed:
Khazad-dum, Belegost and Nogrod had been delved (and the latter two
were destroyed) in the First Age. Khazad-dum expanded somewhat, but
most of the dwarves' accomplishments were in such routine tasks as
mining or forging. There were no great Dwarven armies such as issued
from Belegost and Nogrod until the days of the Last Alliance.


>
>3) Since the Elves and the question of the Rings figure so little in the
>events of the second half of the age, and really into the Third Age,
>could one not argue that from the mid-second age onward is the age of
>men and the decline of the other peoples? The elves that are left
>remain within their kingdoms, the great dwarvish realms are gone, no
>mention of ents or eagles....are these not the fading years?

In consideration of the fact that Gil-galad and Elrond were able
to field an army that could smash the might of Mordor at the Dagorlad,
I am content with Tolkien's designation of the Third Age as the fading
days of the Eldar.


>
>4) Why does Elrond retreat to Imladris rather than back to Lindon?

In addition to the other excellent points already raised by
others, I suggest that Elrond hoped to eventually rebuild Eregion. It
was not until the First White Council that the decision was made to
abandon Eregion.


>
>5) A question perhaps for the Third Age, but why is Lindon so
>insignificant after the Last Alliance? Did Lindon depopulate? Move to
>Imladris? It seems only the Grey Havens remain.

Combine the losses suffered during the Last Alliance with the
steady emigration of Elves from Middle-earth in general and I suspect
that Lindon was severely depopulated. The estrangement between Gondor
and Arnor meant that there was little incentive to maintain the great
havens of the past and the Grey Havens likely would have fallen into
ruin if Cirdan had also perished or departed.

Morgoth's Curse

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