WTD: Elvish Word for Love?
Neil Marsh
I have been searching through the books, but have yet to find the word
for 'love'. Does anyone know where it's mentioned at, if at all? I
found the word for hope, 'estel'.
My fiance and I are having a friend make our wedding bands for us and we
are having them engraved with the phonetic spellings of our names in the
Angerthas Daeron script from the appendices of "The Return of the King",
as well as the word 'estel'. There is still a lot of room on the rings,
so I am trying to find the word for 'love'.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
---
Neil Marsh <dr...@world.std.com> Cambridge, MA
The Net Event of the Year!
<* October 26th, 1996 *>
DrWho & Bex: The Matrimonial Connection!
Visit Neil's 'Better Late Than Never' Home Page for more details!
http://world.std.com/~drwho
Dorothea M. Rovner
> I have been searching through the books, but have yet to find the word
> for 'love'. Does anyone know where it's mentioned at, if at all? I
> found the word for hope, 'estel'.
'meleth' in Sindarin, 'melme' in Quenya. 'estel' is (remarkably)
acceptable as either Sindarin or Quenya, so you can take your pick.
DS
tra...@odyssee.net
In article <Dvo81...@world.std.com>, dr...@world.std.com says...
>
>
>I have been searching through the books, but have yet to find the word
>for 'love'. Does anyone know where it's mentioned at, if at all? I
>found the word for hope, 'estel'.
>
>are having them engraved with the phonetic spellings of our names in the
>Angerthas Daeron script from the appendices of "The Return of the King",
>as well as the word 'estel'. There is still a lot of room on the rings,
>Any input would be greatly appreciated.
>
>---
Here are words that i found in The Lost Road:
husband: besno, verno
wife: besse, vesse
wedding: vestale
love in friendship, friend: serme
loving: nilda
everlasting: oia
love, affection: mil
love: meleth
lover: melethril
love: melme
Some of these words have a tilde over a letter but my software won't print them.
Hope this will help you anyways.
Pascal Trahan
tra...@odyssee.net
Michael Martinez
In article <Dvo81...@world.std.com>, dr...@world.std.com (Neil Marsh) wrote:
>
>I have been searching through the books, but have yet to find the word
>for 'love'. Does anyone know where it's mentioned at, if at all? I
>found the word for hope, 'estel'.
"Melian" means, I believe, "gift of love" or "giver of love". The stem "mel-"
occurs in several words, as I recall, and is consistently translated as "love"
or "lover".
But remember: I'm not a linguist. I *could* be wrong about this....
--
++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?"
||\ /|| --fbag...@mid.earth.com
|| v ||ichael Martinez (mma...@basis.com)
++ ++------------------------------------------------------
James Wilson
> I have been searching through the books, but have yet to find the word
> for 'love'. Does anyone know where it's mentioned at, if at all? I
> found the word for hope, 'estel'.
>
> My fiance and I are having a friend make our wedding bands for us and we
> are having them engraved with the phonetic spellings of our names in the
> Angerthas Daeron script from the appendices of "The Return of the King",
> as well as the word 'estel'. There is still a lot of room on the rings,
> so I am trying to find the word for 'love'.
>
> Any input would be greatly appreciated.
The root for 'love' is 'mel-'. Hence Melian (wife of Thingol) and
Melyanna ('dear gift'). Btw, this is right of the appendix in the Silm...
Also Sindarin 'mellon,' 'friend,' is derived from this.
Best of wishes to you and your fiance.
--
James Wilson <wils...@4j.lane.edu>
David Salo
In article <4u7n46$d...@sloth.swcp.com>, mma...@basis.com (Michael
Martinez) wrote:
> In article <Dvo81...@world.std.com>, dr...@world.std.com (Neil Marsh) wrote:
> >
> >I have been searching through the books, but have yet to find the word
> >for 'love'. Does anyone know where it's mentioned at, if at all? I
> >found the word for hope, 'estel'.
>
> "Melian" means, I believe, "gift of love" or "giver of love". The stem
"mel-"
> occurs in several words, as I recall, and is consistently translated as
"love"
> or "lover".
>
> But remember: I'm not a linguist. I *could* be wrong about this....
Melian does contain the same element mel-. It is easier however to
show how the name breaks down in its Quenya version, Melyanna.
-ya was a very common Eldarin ending for adjectives. Mel + ya = melya,
which meant 'dear' or 'beloved'. an- was a stem meaning 'give'; with the
past participial ending -na (anna) it meant 'given, that which is given,
gift'.
Melya + anna = Mely'anna > Melyanna "Dear Gift".
In Sindarin the formal equivalent to anna was *ann, or in longer
compounds -an; the equivalent to melya would have been *mail, but in the
beginning of a word it would take the form meli-: meli- + -an = Melian.
(for Mail/Meli-, cf. Cair 'ship', and Ciri- (both < *kirya) in such names
as Cirion 'shipman'.)
David Salo
David Salo
In article <320907...@nlib.ee>, "Martin A. Jalakas" <mar...@nlib.ee> wrote:
> Well. What would Melkor stand for then?
> It might have been said in the Silmarillion, but I don't have it right now.
That name did not contain the root MEL, but two other roots, MBELEK
'might', and OR 'rise, go up'; the ancient Eldarin word was *Mbeleko:ro
and meant "Mighty Riser" or (as the Silmarillion has it) "He who arises in
might". Same thing. The Sindarin equivalent was Belegu^r.
David Salo
Martin A. Jalakas
-- James Wilson wrote:
>
> In article <Dvo81...@world.std.com>, dr...@world.std.com (Neil Marsh) wrote:
>
> > I have been searching through the books, but have yet to find the word
> > for 'love'. Does anyone know where it's mentioned at, if at all? I
> > found the word for hope, 'estel'.
>
> Melyanna ('dear gift'). Btw, this is right of the appendix in the Silm...
> Also Sindarin 'mellon,' 'friend,' is derived from this.
>
> Best of wishes to you and your fiance.
> --
> James Wilson <wils...@4j.lane.edu>
Well. What would Melkor stand for then?
It might have been said in the Silmarillion, but I don't have it right now.
Martin
---
mar...@nlib.ee
GWIDON S. NASKRENT
In article <4u6un1$c...@pegasus.odyssee.net>
tra...@odyssee.net writes:
>In article <Dvo81...@world.std.com>, dr...@world.std.com says...
>>
>>
>>I have been searching through the books, but have yet to find the word
>>for 'love'. Does anyone know where it's mentioned at, if at all? I
>>found the word for hope, 'estel'.
>>
>>are having them engraved with the phonetic spellings of our names in the
>>Angerthas Daeron script from the appendices of "The Return of the King",
>>as well as the word 'estel'. There is still a lot of room on the rings,
>>
>>Any input would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>
>
>Here are words that i found in The Lost Road:
>
>husband: besno, verno
>wife: besse, vesse
components), so "besse" = a wife, but the wife = "i-vesse".
>wedding: vestale
>love in friendship, friend: serme
>loving: nilda
(I don't have ETYM right now, so can't tell).
>everlasting: oia (is Q., cf. Oiolosse)
>love, affection: mil
>love: meleth
>lover: melethril
>love: melme
Quenya.
>Some of these words have a tilde over a letter but my software won't print them.
They are only used to show long vowels, but you may not worry replicating them.
GSN
David Salo
In article <177DDAC48S...@vm.amu.edu.pl>, NASK...@vm.amu.edu.pl
(GWIDON S. NASKRENT) wrote:
> >husband: besno, verno
> >wife: besse, vesse
>
> The first form is the basic form, the second is lenited (used in
> components), so "besse" = a wife, but the wife = "i-vesse".
Not quite correct (it would be correct in other situations). *besno
and *besse are 'reconstructed' forms, which are the common ancestors of,
respectively, Quenya verno and Sindarin benn, and Q. vesse and S. bess.
It is true that in Sindarin one could say "i vess" "the wife", but vesse
is Quenya without alteration, and *besse was never used during any
'historical' period of Middle-earth.
David Salo
David Salo
In article <320CF5...@sk.sympatico.ca>, Harvey Parobec
<h.pa...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> I have been able to find derivitives of dream and I imagine I could find
> dreamer but my dog ate my book. (No Joke) Anyway, this is really
> important, can anyone help me out?
The Quenya word for dream was olos, pl. olori. The verb for dream was
o'la- (long o); a dreamer would likely be an *o'laro, though the noun is
not actually attested.
What book is this that the dog ate?
David Salo
Harvey Parobec
Harvey Parobec
David Salo wrote:
>
> In article <320CF5...@sk.sympatico.ca>, Harvey Parobec
> <h.pa...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> o'la- (long o); a dreamer would likely be an *o'laro, though the noun is
> not actually attested.
> What book is this that the dog ate?
>
> David Salo
lost some weight in my wallet.
Lirazel
David asks:
(snip--but a very interesting snip, as always)
>What book is it the dog ate?
Apparantly, the one you're writing! :-)
Lirazel
Cherxanadu
I've only had one book eaten by a dog, and that was "Bored of the Rings."
Some might say that proves this is a dog-eat-dog world...
LeRoy D. Nettrouer
In article <Dvo81...@world.std.com>, dr...@world.std.com says...
>
>
>I have been searching through the books, but have yet to find the word
>for 'love'. Does anyone know where it's mentioned at, if at all? I
>found the word for hope, 'estel'.
>
>My fiance and I are having a friend make our wedding bands for us and we
>are having them engraved with the phonetic spellings of our names in the
>Angerthas Daeron script from the appendices of "The Return of the King",
>as well as the word 'estel'. There is still a lot of room on the rings,
>so I am trying to find the word for 'love'.
>
>Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Dave Jaromnak
Melkor: I believe it is Quenya and means "He Who Arises in Might". The
Eldar would not utter that name, calling him Morgoth, Sindarin for "Dark
Enemy".
Brian Ellenberger
On 19 Aug 1996, Dave Jaromnak wrote:
> Melkor: I believe it is Quenya and means "He Who Arises in Might". The
> Eldar would not utter that name, calling him Morgoth, Sindarin for "Dark
> Enemy".
I don't think the name Morgoth is Sindarian. Feanor first called him that
in Valinor after the stealing of the Silmilari.
Nimrath
mar...@nlib.ee wrote:
> Well. What would Melkor stand for then?
> It might have been said in the Silmarillion, but I don't have it right
>now.
I'm not that well versed in the languages, but here's my stab at it.
Melkor is Quenyan and means "He who arise in Might". In Sindarin, he is
Belegur or Belegurth, "Great Death". _Kor_ is "one who rises", although
it originally meant "revere" and is the original name of the city of elves
in Eldamar (and also the hill on which it was built). _Mel-_'s meaning is
not directly given, but in the BOOK OF LOST TALES, Melko also is given
Belca (changed to Belcha) derived from _velka_ (flame) and also Yelur,
from _yelwa_ (cold), since Melko is the master of these extremes (fire and
cold). In the SIL, _beleg_ is listed as meaning "might". Also in the
SIL, there is the Quenyan stem _val-_ (power), the original of which was
_bal-_, thus Sindarin Balan for the Valar (plural Belain). Possibly the
_Mel-_ of Melkor derives from this_ val-_ / _bal-_ (pl._ bel-_) /_beleg_
(might) group.
Nimrath
David Salo
> I'm not that well versed in the languages, but here's my stab at it.
>
> Melkor is Quenyan and means "He who arise in Might". In Sindarin, he is
> Belegur or Belegurth, "Great Death". _Kor_ is "one who rises", although
> it originally meant "revere" and is the original name of the city of elves
> in Eldamar (and also the hill on which it was built). _Mel-_'s meaning is
> not directly given, but in the BOOK OF LOST TALES, Melko also is given
> Belca (changed to Belcha) derived from _velka_ (flame) and also Yelur,
> from _yelwa_ (cold), since Melko is the master of these extremes (fire and
> cold). In the SIL, _beleg_ is listed as meaning "might". Also in the
> SIL, there is the Quenyan stem _val-_ (power), the original of which was
> _bal-_, thus Sindarin Balan for the Valar (plural Belain). Possibly the
> _Mel-_ of Melkor derives from this_ val-_ / _bal-_ (pl._ bel-_) /_beleg_
> (might) group.
The name 'Melkor' (as opposed to 'Melko') was devised very late, at a
time when the etymologies in The Book of Lost Tales had been entirely
superseded. Melkor and Belegu^r both reflect a primitive compound
*mbelek-ooro, literally meaning "Mighty Riser": *mbeleka > Melca/Beleg
"Mighty" (root MBELEK 'be strong or powerful') *ooro > Or/U^r "riser, one
who rises" (root OR 'go up'). The root BAL "have authority" > Q. Vala is
unconnected.
David Salo
Michael Martinez
"Morgoth" is a Sindarin name, as is "Feanor". In THE SILMARILLION most of the
names are provided in Sindarin form because, supposedly, the narratives from
which the book is drawn were originally written in Sindarin (which was a
common language for Beleriand and nearby regions in the First Age).
Hence, Feanor's name for Melkor would have been translated into Sindarin, if
"Morgoth" is not acceptable Quenya.
Some of the Quenya-Sindarin equivalents that are mentioned in THE SILMARILLION
are:
Quenya Sindarin
------ --------
Aika Aeg (sharp, fell)
Aikanaro Aegnor
Alata Galad (radiance)
Alatariel Galadriel
Alda Galadh (tree)
Alkar Aglar (glory, brilliance)
Alkarinque Aglareb (glorious)
Alqua Alph (swan)
Ambar Amarth (doom)
Anar Anor (sun)
Angamando Angband (iron prison)
Angarato Angrod
Arato Rod (champion)
Aure Aur, Or (day)
Calen Galen (green)
Carca Carch (fang)
Carne Caran (red)
Cuivienen Nen Echui (waters of awakening)
Ear Gaer (sea)
Ehtele Eithel (well)
Elda Eldhel, Eledh (elf)
Eldar Edhil (elves, people of the stars)
Endor Ennor (middle lands)
Falasse Falas (coast)
Feanaro Feanor (spirit of fire)
Findakano Fingon
Findarato Finrod
Heru Hir (lord)
Hloke Lhug (snake, serpent)
Huine Fuin (gloom, darkness)
Ita- Id- (sparkle)
Itarille,
Itarilde Idril
Kano Gon (commander)
Laure Glor, Lor (golden light or hue)
Linde Lin (singing, song)
Londe Lond (land-locked haven)
Losse Los (snow)
Lote Loth (blossom, flower)
Maika Maeg (sharp, piercing)
Mandos Band (prison)
Mar Bar (home)
Melyanna Melian (dear gift)
Mire Mir (jewel)
Nar Naur (fire)
Ndor Dor (land)
Ninque Nim (white)
Ninquelote Nimloth (white flower)
Numen Dun (west, sunset)
Oiolosse (Amon) Uilos (ever white)
Ondo Gond (stone)
Ondolinde Gondolin (stone + song)
Otso Odo (seven)
Quen Pedo (speak)
Quare Paur (fist)
Quetta Beth (word)
Ramba Ram (wall)
Rauko Raug, Rog (demon)
Rimbe Rim (host
Rokko Roch (horse)
Romen Rhun (east, sunrise)
Runya Ruin (red flame)
Saur Thaur (abominable, abhorrent)
Sauron Gorthaur
Serke Sereg (blood)
Sorontar Thoron (eagle)
Tara Tar (high, lofty)
Tasare Tathar (willow)
Taure Taur (wood, forest)
Telep, Telpe Celeb (silver)
Telperin Celebrin (silvery, silver-like)
Telperinquar Celebrimbor
Tin Din (sparkle)
Tindomerel Tinuviel (daughter of twilight)
Tumbo Tum (valley)
Turambar Turamarth
Turkano Turgon
Valarauko Balrog
Some of the names in the books are said to be of mixed Quenya and Sindarin
(such as "Boromir"). I don't know if "Morgoth" is considered to be one of
these.
David Salo
In article <4vkjla$2fc...@thepope.basis.com>, mma...@mail.basis.com
(Michael Martinez) wrote:
> "Morgoth" is a Sindarin name, as is "Feanor". In THE SILMARILLION most
of the
> names are provided in Sindarin form because, supposedly, the narratives from
> which the book is drawn were originally written in Sindarin (which was a
> common language for Beleriand and nearby regions in the First Age).
>
> Hence, Feanor's name for Melkor would have been translated into Sindarin, if
> "Morgoth" is not acceptable Quenya.
It is explicitly stated, in a HoME book which I do not have on hand
right now, that Feana'ro named Melkor "Moringotto" (in Quenya); that is
Mori- "black", ngotto "enemy"; this name was rendered into Sindarin as
Morgoth.
> Some of the Quenya-Sindarin equivalents that are mentioned in THE
SILMARILLION
> are:
>
> Quenya Sindarin
> ------ --------
> Aikanaro Aegnor
CJRT may have some ms. evidence for this, but the only published Q.
form of Aegnor's name is _Aikana'r_.
> Alata Galad (radiance)
> Alatariel Galadriel
Published forms indicate that her usual Q. name was _Altariel_; this
appears in _The Road Goes Ever On_ (in genitive case 'Altariello').
Syncope (syllabic loss) of CVCVC forms to CVCC forms (e.g. *galata > alta)
was normal in Q.
> Angarato Angrod
> Arato Rod (champion)
The normal S. form (not attested) would be *Raud, regularly reduced to
Rod-,-rod in compounds.
> Aure Aur, Or (day)
Or- is a reduction of similar type.
> Calen Galen (green)
This is in error. Calen is S.; the Q. form was calina, and meant
'bright'. Galen is a either a lenited form of calen, or an alternative
form from the root GAL (not KAL); -galen in Ard-galen is calen, lenited.
> Ear Gaer (sea)
This is CJRT's error, based on not paying enough attention to the
different dates of Tolkien's linguistic notes. It is now clear that
Tolkien finally decided that the S. equivalents of Q. Ear were aear and
aer, not gaer.
> Elda Eldhel, Eledh (elf)
^^^^^^^ should be _Edhel_. Tolkien eventually decided
that _Eledh_ was not a true S. form (and that Eledhwen should be replaced
by Edhelwen, a change CJRT did not pick up); he allowed Eledhrim as being
from elen+rim, an archaic word meaning "all the elvish race".
> Eldar Edhil (elves, people of the stars)
These are equivalents but not true cognates.
> Feanaro Feanor (spirit of fire)
Feanor is a part Q, part S. compound; the fea- part is from Quenya
> Itarille,
> Itarilde Idril
The actually found Q. form of Idril's name is I'rilde, which is not
cognate to the S. form (although both contain the element RIL,'glitter').
> Kano Gon (commander)
S. form is *Caun, reduced in compounds to con, usually lenited in final
position as -gon.
> Laure Glor, Lor (golden light or hue)
Likewise normal S. form is *Glaur, Glor-, -lor. (gl- lenits to -l-).
> Lote Loth (blossom, flower)
These two are both developments from the same LOT root, but are not
true cognates. The real cognate forms would be: *Lotse = Loth, Lo'te =
*Lu^d.
> Mandos Band (prison)
Q. Mando = S. Band; Q. Mandos = S. Bannost "fortress of custody"
> Ndor Dor (land)
Initial nd-, common in Primitive Eldarin, had been transformed to n- in
Q. Q. had the word no'r, "dry land", which was nearly cognate to S. do^r;
but it was often replaced by Q. no're (originally meaning people, family)
of which the S. equivalent was nu^r 'race'.
> Ninque Nim (white)
S. cognate was really nimp, but it often appeared in compounds as nim-
> Numen Dun (west, sunset)
Equivalent in meaning but not a true cognate; the Q. equivalent of S.
Du^n was Nu'n (not, I think, used outside of compounds such as Nu'natani =
Du'nedain.)
> Ondolinde Gondolin (stone + song)
Gondolin is not a true cognate to Ondolinde (which would have appeared
as *Gonglin); it has been modified by insertion of the medial -o-, partly
in imitation of the Q., partly by way of a S. pun: Gond dolen 'hidden
rock'.
> Otso Odo (seven)
Odo is probably CJRT's error for original odog, although this is not
technically cognate to otso either, one reflecting older *otoso, the other
*otoko.
> Quen Pedo (speak)
Quen was a Q. pronoun meaning 'one, someone', used in passive sentences
as a stand-in for the subject. The Q. equivalent of pedo! "speak!" was
probably *queta!
> Quetta Beth (word)
S. form is _peth_, lenited to beth as direct object.
> Romen Rhun (east, sunrise)
Like Nu'men and Du^n, not true cognates.
> Saur Thaur (abominable, abhorrent)
The Q. adjective was probably *saure 'foul'; it appears in an older and
more complete version of Treebeard's imprecation against the orcs in a
compounded form, sauri-kumba "foul-bellied" (final short -i became -e in
Quenya, except in compounds).
> Sauron Gorthaur
These words refer to the same person, but are not cognate; Sauron would
be in S. *Thauron "foul one" (it is no wonder he was always in such a bad
mood, his classmates called him 'Stinky'); Gorthaur means "Dread and
Abhorrent", a compound of gorth and thaur.
> Sorontar Thoron (eagle)
Sorontar is the name of the eagle called in S. Thorondor. The Q.
equivalent of S. Thoron (also seen as Tho^r, -thorn) was _sorno_.
> Telep, Telpe Celeb (silver)
Telep is only a form found in composition (for telep(e)); Telpe is the
normal Q. form when standing alone. The historical Q. form was _Tyelpe_,
but Telpe was borrowed from the Teleri because the Teleri had more to do
with silver.
> Telperin Celebrin (silvery, silver-like)
Actual S. adjective was _celebren_, but celebrin- in compounds.
> Tin Din (sparkle)
-din (in Ithildin) is only a lenited form of S. tin 'sparkling
thing, star'; Tin- was only an element in Q. and did not exist on its own.
> Turkano Turgon
No form 'Turkano' is quoted. The Q. equivalent of Turgon would be
*Tu'reca'no "Victory-commander".
Michael Martinez
In article <dmrovner-230...@f180-161.net.wisc.edu>, dmro...@students.wisc.edu (David Salo) wrote:
>In article <4vkjla$2fc...@thepope.basis.com>, mma...@mail.basis.com
>(Michael Martinez) wrote:
First of all, thanks for your followup to my article. I certainly wasn't
trying to pass myself off as linguistically able to analyze Christopher
Tolkien's work in THE SILMARILLION.
One small nit, however:
>> Turkano Turgon
> No form 'Turkano' is quoted. The Q. equivalent of Turgon would be
>*Tu'reca'no "Victory-commander".
It's true I did not find a quotation, but I included the above based on the
following entry from THE SILMARILLION's appendix:
"kano 'commander': this Quenya word is the origin of the second
element in *Fingon* and *Turgon*"
Like you, I didn't have my HOME books available to look into this further
(and, in fact, haven't made a study of the languages, so I really wouldn't try
to comment significantly on them anyway).