Olorin / Gandalf
Paganini <Nathan E. Banks>
Gandalf was Olorin in westerness. Did he get caught in his body like the
Balrogs did? The only place I can remember him being unclad was after he
died on Zirak Zigil. His body was destroyed, so he went naked to wherever
Maia go when they die. But Eru sent him back with a new body. Could he get
out of it if he wanted to? Could any of the Istari? It seems like there are
places in the books where it would have been REALLY handy if Gandalf could
have just wafted away into invisibility.
--
Annon
Et Annonello, nólë.
Olof Somell
I wouldn't say "caught" in his own body, as he more or less
volounteered to go to ME as an Istari. On the other hand I believe
that he was definately limited to the confines of his physical body.
Since the command from Manwë was that they (the Istari) was not
allowed to reveal themselves as Maiar, he could not just slip away
from his body when he wished. (Guess: it would be harder for Sauron
to identify the Istari as Maiar, were they "locked" in "human"
bodies). Also, when Gandalf "died" on Zirak Zigil, I don't think
Olórin the Maia died. He just went into the far east and was, by the
grace of Manwë, clad in a new body and returned. It is vaguely
similar to when the Ring was destroyed. Sauron's body disappeared,
but the Maia survived although in VERY diminished power. This because
it is stated in LOTR or Silmarillion something like -he became a
spirit, unable to take any form again-. With any form, I think
tolkien meant any active form, he could not in any way interact with
events. However, on that I'm only guessing.
Olof Somell
Michael Martinez
Olof says...
>
> I wouldn't say "caught" in his own body, as he more or less
>volounteered to go to ME as an Istari. On the other hand I believe
>that he was definately limited to the confines of his physical body.
>allowed to reveal themselves as Maiar, he could not just slip away
>from his body when he wished. (Guess: it would be harder for Sauron
>to identify the Istari as Maiar, were they "locked" in "human"
>bodies). Also, when Gandalf "died" on Zirak Zigil, I don't think
>Olórin the Maia died. He just went into the far east and was, by the
>similar to when the Ring was destroyed. Sauron's body disappeared,
>but the Maia survived although in VERY diminished power. This because
>it is stated in LOTR or Silmarillion something like -he became a
>spirit, unable to take any form again-. With any form, I think
>tolkien meant any active form, he could not in any way interact with
>events. However, on that I'm only guessing.
Manwe lived in "The Uttermost West", which at the end of the Third Age was no
longer a part of the world. Gandalf, however, says he wandered far out of time
and mind (or something like that), a reference -- according to Tolkien -- to his
having left the realm of Manwe. Tolkien says Authority (Iluvatar) sent Gandalf
back.
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Michael Martinez
>
>I've been rereading the Silmarillion lately, and something caught my eye.
>Gandalf was Olorin in westerness. Did he get caught in his body like the
>Balrogs did? The only place I can remember him being unclad was after he
>died on Zirak Zigil. His body was destroyed, so he went naked to wherever
>Maia go when they die. But Eru sent him back with a new body. Could he get
>out of it if he wanted to? Could any of the Istari? It seems like there are
>places in the books where it would have been REALLY handy if Gandalf could
>have just wafted away into invisibility.
There is no record of Gandalf/Olorin ever having visited Westernesse (Numenor).
As Olorin he dwelt in Valinor, the land of the Valar in Aman, also known as the
Undying Lands and the Uttermost West (which is what I think you're confusing
with Westernesse).
Gandalf may or may not have had the ability to leave his body. I've now read
the argument from Vinyar Tengwar that Bill Hicklin referred to a couple of days
ago and I must say that it gives one reason to pause. The source is pure
Tolkien, but it's another of his speculative essays that emerged during the
period when all was being changed. By that essay, however, Gandalf probably
would have had great difficulty in changing his shape (although Radagast was a
master of shapes and hues).
There are inconsistencies in any event. So Gandalf might have required help
from the Valar or Iluvatar himself in order to finally leave his body after
2,000 years living as a Man. Or maybe when Iluvatar sent him back with greater
strength and authority (or just greater authority) Gandalf no longer had to
worry about that.
Paganini <Nathan E. Banks>
(Numenor).
>As Olorin he dwelt in Valinor, the land of the Valar in Aman, also known as
the
>Undying Lands and the Uttermost West (which is what I think you're
confusing
>with Westernesse).
Oops! (Obviously)
Robert S. Coren
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.98091...@triangulum.nada.kth.se>,
Olof Somell <f98...@nada.kth.se> wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Paganini <Nathan E. Banks> wrote:
>> I've been rereading the Silmarillion lately, and something caught my eye.
>> Gandalf was Olorin in westerness. Did he get caught in his body like the
>> Balrogs did? The only place I can remember him being unclad was after he
>> died on Zirak Zigil. His body was destroyed, so he went naked to wherever
>> Maia go when they die. But Eru sent him back with a new body. Could he get
>> out of it if he wanted to? Could any of the Istari? It seems like there are
>> places in the books where it would have been REALLY handy if Gandalf could
>> have just wafted away into invisibility.
> I wouldn't say "caught" in his own body, as he more or less
>volounteered to go to ME as an Istari. On the other hand I believe
>that he was definately limited to the confines of his physical body.
>Since the command from Manwė was that they (the Istari) was not
>allowed to reveal themselves as Maiar, he could not just slip away
>from his body when he wished. (Guess: it would be harder for Sauron
>to identify the Istari as Maiar, were they "locked" in "human"
>bodies). Also, when Gandalf "died" on Zirak Zigil, I don't think
>Olórin the Maia died. He just went into the far east
Surely you meant "west". I only point this out to avoid pointless
discussion.
>and was, by the
>grace of Manwė, clad in a new body and returned.
Actually, I think there are indications in _Letters_, and possibly in
_Unfinished Tales_, that JRRT considered Olórin to have truly died --
the Istari in their human guises were in fact subject to the dangers
of the flesh -- and his return was the work of Eru, not Manwė. The
Valar would not have had the power to undo death.
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"Trust me -- I'm fast when I know what I want."
--Will Parsons
AGr3691541
writes:
>There are inconsistencies in any event. So Gandalf might have required help
>from the Valar or Iluvatar himself in order to finally leave his body after
>2,000 years living as a Man. Or maybe when Iluvatar sent him back with
>greater
>strength and authority (or just greater authority) Gandalf no longer had to
>worry about that.
The Wizards were Maiar in Valar who were forbidden from using *direct* power on
Middle Earth to fights the evils of Sauron, in the same way that the Valar were
not allowed to interfere with the Gift Of Man - even though they wanted to.
In this respect, Gandalf's humanity was probably the reason he succeeded - but
it was also Saruman's downfall - he became enamoured to material things and
sought to have control over them.
The Valar could not interfere in what was essentially Man's fight with the
elves, and so probably could not resurrect Gandalf - but Illuvatar - moving in
the mysterious way that he did, resurrected to finally and utterly defeat
Sauron.
Lazy Line Painter Al