CotW LotR, Bk 3 Chptr 3 - The Uruk-hai (corrected version)
Yuk Tang
cross-post it to rabt.
********************
The chapter starts with Pippin's half-dream recollection of Boromir's
stand, and the Hobbits' capture by the Orc hunting
band. Having depressed himself by his comparison with the heroics of
Boromir and Merry, P, now fully awake, listens to the
arguments between the various factions within the pack. The two main
voices, representing Orthanc and Barad Dur
respectively, are Ugluk and Grishnakh. They agree on the integrity
of the captives, but little else. During the quarrel that
breaks out, a fallen Orc's knife allows Pippin the opportunity to cut
his binds, which he nonetheless retains for
appearance's sake.
When the outrunners report back with the sighting of a horseman,
Ugluk decides to speed proceedings by making the
captives run on their own feet. Reviving Merry and Pippin with Orc-
cordial, the pack accelerate towards the relative cover
of Fangorn. Spotting an opportunity to leave a token of their
passing, Pippin veers off the trail to leave his brooch in the
mud, and tastes the whip for his troubles.
For whatever unknown reason, Grishnakh's band rejoins the
Isengarders. After another argument about the effectiveness
of Grishnakh's Nazgul superiors, the Isengarders take possession of
the Hobbits. Despite a surprising turn of speed, they
cannot outrun the Riders who fence them from the forest and encircle
them. Ugluk is content to wait for reinforcements
from Isengard who will strike at dark.
Grishnakh takes advantage of a Rider-induced confusion to get close
to the Hobbits, and Pippin reacts by tempting him with
the offer of the Ring. Taking them to the relative darkness for
closer inspection, Grishnakh is spotted by a Rider and
spitted. Hidden by their Elven-cloaks, the Hobbits avoid detection,
and Pippin is able to untie Merry and head further into
the dark. When they are clear of the fight, they stop for a snack
(!?) and reflection, before heading into the trees, away
from the sound of battle and the sight of Ugluk, fighting to the end.
And what an end it is, as Ugluk's band is finally taken
and Ugluk himself killed by Eomer.
Discussion points:
1. Who are the Uruk-Hai? With the knowledge that the Olog-Hai were
trolls (see barrowdowns.com for a fuller essay), it seems probable
that the Uruk-Hai were the Orcish name for themselves, that 'Orc' and
'Yrch' were merely Elvish corruptions of the original. Yet Ugluk
refers to the Isengarders apart as the fighting Uruk-Hai, they who do
the fighting, they who do the dirty work. One way of reconciling
this is to consider Uruk-Hai as a term that can includes _all_ Orcs,
but that there is also an ideal that Orcs aspire towards, that _this_
was the ultimate in Uruk-Haidom. This explains Ugluk's later
reference to 'the Uruk-Hai of Isengard', which can imply both their
uniqueness as Isengard's brood, and their lack of uniqueness so that
their Isengardian origin would need specifying. However, we must
remember that the evidence for this comes via Hobbit chroniclers, and
as their account of the army of Isengard implied, the eye (ear?)
witnesses thought that Uruks were a group apart.
2. What's the point of Pippin's diversion? The trackers knew that
he and Merry had been taken by Orcs, and could tell that they were
heading towards Isengard. Since their bodies were not found on the
trail, it would logically follow that they, or their bodies, were
still headed towards Isengard, brooch or not brooch.
3. What was the orc-cordial? It invigorates upon imbibing, but
leaves the drinker dull after its effects have worn off, yet leaves
no lasting after-trace. Ginger brandy with an infusion of chilli and
garlic?
4. What did Grishnakh know about the Ring, and how did he know about
it? It's been stated (admittedly by Gandalf, who's hardly 'in the
loop') that Sauron doesn't trust anyone other than the Nazgul to deal
with matters involving the One. Yet Grishnakh obviously knows of its
allure, and its connections with Gollum. Was he one of the
interrogators who wrung the information from Gollum in Barad Dur?
5. Ugluk da Hero. We see in the Hobbits the attributes of heroism,
as recognised in Tolkien's world. Frodo: wisdom, Sam: faithfulness,
Merry: courage, Pippin: wit. This can be seen in purer form in the
Silm, but within LotR (and this chapter) we can see what sets Ugluk
apart from the other Orcs. He is faithful to his master, delivering
the Hobbits as requested, and trusting the White Hand to send him
reinforcements to finish the job. He is canny enough to concentrate
on realistic objectives, keeping the ultimate end in sight but
shaping their efforts to achieve that end. He is quick-witted enough
to react successfully to the machinations of Grishnakh, and to make
snap decisions to maximise their chances of success. And finally,
his courage cannot be questioned. While events (and Eomer) may have
overtaken him, he meets a heroic end, and is accorded a memorial of
sorts, his head stuck on a stake. While ignominious to our eyes, it
shows that Eomer evidently thought much of his opponent, that he
dismounted and fought him on foot, and giving him this special
treatment after.
--
Cheers, ymt.
aelfwina
"Yuk Tang" <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9525B7FC06DF3...@130.133.1.4...
> Please reply to this thread instead of the other, since I forgot to
> cross-post it to rabt.
>
> ********************
>
> Discussion points:
>
> 1. Who are the Uruk-Hai? With the knowledge that the Olog-Hai were
> trolls (see barrowdowns.com for a fuller essay), it seems probable
> that the Uruk-Hai were the Orcish name for themselves, that 'Orc' and
> 'Yrch' were merely Elvish corruptions of the original. Yet Ugluk
> refers to the Isengarders apart as the fighting Uruk-Hai, they who do
> the fighting, they who do the dirty work. One way of reconciling
> this is to consider Uruk-Hai as a term that can includes _all_ Orcs,
> but that there is also an ideal that Orcs aspire towards, that _this_
> was the ultimate in Uruk-Haidom. This explains Ugluk's later
> reference to 'the Uruk-Hai of Isengard', which can imply both their
> uniqueness as Isengard's brood, and their lack of uniqueness so that
> their Isengardian origin would need specifying. However, we must
> remember that the evidence for this comes via Hobbit chroniclers, and
> as their account of the army of Isengard implied, the eye (ear?)
> witnesses thought that Uruks were a group apart.
I think that perhaps Saruman used the designation to instill pride, and
perhaps to set them apart, so that they would give him their chief
allegiance, rather than Barad-Dur. Still, your theory has appeal as well.
>
> 2. What's the point of Pippin's diversion? The trackers knew that
> he and Merry had been taken by Orcs, and could tell that they were
> heading towards Isengard. Since their bodies were not found on the
> trail, it would logically follow that they, or their bodies, were
> still headed towards Isengard, brooch or not brooch.
Ah, but now Aragorn knows that at least one of them is not only alive, but
has the use of his wits, and is healthy (uninjured) enough to leave the
brooch. A useful thing to know.
>
> 3. What was the orc-cordial? It invigorates upon imbibing, but
> leaves the drinker dull after its effects have worn off, yet leaves
> no lasting after-trace. Ginger brandy with an infusion of chilli and
> garlic?
Something pretty dire. I would guess it is the Orc equivalent of miruvor.
Your description sounds about right. LOL!
>
> 4. What did Grishnakh know about the Ring, and how did he know about
> it? It's been stated (admittedly by Gandalf, who's hardly 'in the
> loop') that Sauron doesn't trust anyone other than the Nazgul to deal
> with matters involving the One. Yet Grishnakh obviously knows of its
> allure, and its connections with Gollum. Was he one of the
> interrogators who wrung the information from Gollum in Barad Dur?
I have always thought that perhaps Grishnakh eavesdropped on conversations
not meant for his ears. But if he were one of Gollum's interrogators, or
even a lackey in the vicinity of Gollum's interrogation, it would account
with his famiiliarity with the noise he made.
>
> 5. Ugluk da Hero. We see in the Hobbits the attributes of heroism,
> as recognised in Tolkien's world. Frodo: wisdom, Sam: faithfulness,
> Merry: courage, Pippin: wit. This can be seen in purer form in the
> Silm, but within LotR (and this chapter) we can see what sets Ugluk
> apart from the other Orcs. He is faithful to his master, delivering
> the Hobbits as requested, and trusting the White Hand to send him
> reinforcements to finish the job. He is canny enough to concentrate
> on realistic objectives, keeping the ultimate end in sight but
> shaping their efforts to achieve that end. He is quick-witted enough
> to react successfully to the machinations of Grishnakh, and to make
> snap decisions to maximise their chances of success. And finally,
> his courage cannot be questioned. While events (and Eomer) may have
> overtaken him, he meets a heroic end, and is accorded a memorial of
> sorts, his head stuck on a stake. While ignominious to our eyes, it
> shows that Eomer evidently thought much of his opponent, that he
> dismounted and fought him on foot, and giving him this special
> treatment after.
I suppose that he might have been as close to a hero to Orcs as an Orc might
get. But although a warrior like Eomer might appreciate the creature's
physical ability and courage enough to engage him, I don't think anyone will
be handing out any medals.
Other comments: You seemed to indicate surprise that the first thing Merry
and Pippin did after escaping was eat. These *are* hobbits, after all.
Pippin really comes into his own in this chapter. For the first time since
the story began, he has no one else to rely on, and he really comes through,
showing his Tookishness, courage and wit.
Barbara
>
>
> --
> Cheers, ymt.
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Yuk Tang" <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote
>> 4. What did Grishnakh know about the Ring, and how
<snip>
>> Was he one of the
>> interrogators who wrung the information from Gollum in Barad Dur?
>
> I have always thought that perhaps Grishnakh eavesdropped on
> conversations not meant for his ears. But if he were one of Gollum's
> interrogators, or even a lackey in the vicinity of Gollum's
> interrogation, it would account with his famiiliarity with the noise
> he made.
Being familiar with Gollum's noises: remember that the orcs we meet
later in Mordor also seem familiar with Gollum. It seems that, much like
Hurin in 'The Silmarillion' Gollum was released by Sauron and allowed to
go where he would, and the orcs (for Gollum) and Easterlings (for Hurin)
let him pass at will. Though Gollum was by that time being hunted by the
orcs, it is implied that earlier he had the freedom of the lands. Word
must have been sent out to let him pass. But the Ring information would
have been a closely guarded secret, so very possibly Grishnakh was one
of the interrogators.
<snip>
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Tar-Elenion
says...<snip>
> > 1. Who are the Uruk-Hai? With the knowledge that the Olog-Hai were
> > trolls (see barrowdowns.com for a fuller essay), it seems probable
> > that the Uruk-Hai were the Orcish name for themselves, that 'Orc' and
> > 'Yrch' were merely Elvish corruptions of the original. Yet Ugluk
> > refers to the Isengarders apart as the fighting Uruk-Hai, they who do
> > the fighting, they who do the dirty work. One way of reconciling
> > this is to consider Uruk-Hai as a term that can includes _all_ Orcs,
> > but that there is also an ideal that Orcs aspire towards, that _this_
> > was the ultimate in Uruk-Haidom. This explains Ugluk's later
> > reference to 'the Uruk-Hai of Isengard', which can imply both their
> > uniqueness as Isengard's brood, and their lack of uniqueness so that
> > their Isengardian origin would need specifying. However, we must
> > remember that the evidence for this comes via Hobbit chroniclers, and
> > as their account of the army of Isengard implied, the eye (ear?)
> > witnesses thought that Uruks were a group apart.
>
> I think that perhaps Saruman used the designation to instill pride, and
> perhaps to set them apart, so that they would give him their chief
> allegiance, rather than Barad-Dur. Still, your theory has appeal as well.
According to the explanation given in the index of UT:
"/Uruks/ Anglicized form of /Uruk-hai/ of the Black Speech; a race of
Orcs of great size and strength."
It seems unlikely that Saruman would use the B.S. to name Orcs that were
exclusively his. Additionally, since the term /Uruks/ is used both of
Sauron's and Saruman's Orcs and /Uruks/ is just the anglicized form of
Uruk-hai, then the general term /Uruk-hai/ refers to Orcs in the service
of both Sauron and Saruman. Or, as per, LotR, App. F "Related, no doubt,
was the word /uruk/ of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a
rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor
and Isengard." These great soldier-orcs would be Uruk-hai.
--
Tar-Elenion
He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.
jsberry
> > leaves the drinker dull after its effects have worn off, yet leaves
> > no lasting after-trace. Ginger brandy with an infusion of chilli and
> > garlic?
>
> Something pretty dire. I would guess it is the Orc equivalent of miruvor.
> Your description sounds about right. LOL!
I always thought it was coffee. Not Starbucks or Lavazza; no, this
was some stale gas-station coffee. Bitter, dark, hot, and strong.
Tolkien had a way of putting the real world's stimulants into Middle
Earth, they had pipe weed and beer so why not coffee. Further, the
Europeans got coffee from the Turks and the orcs are kind of
eastern/african-esque in Tolkien's way, so it fits.
Henriette
(snip good and short summary, thank you Yuk Tang! Taemon, maybe you
don't have objections to making a relatively *short* summary?)
> 2. What's the point of Pippin's diversion? The trackers knew that
> he and Merry had been taken by Orcs, and could tell that they were
> heading towards Isengard. (snip)
>
I think he acted intuitively on impulse, and was meant to do that.
Which fits in with the general atmosphere of LOTR.
> 3. What was the orc-cordial? It invigorates upon imbibing, but
> leaves the drinker dull after its effects have worn off, yet leaves
> no lasting after-trace. Ginger brandy with an infusion of chilli and
> garlic?
>
Are those your phantasies after Merry has said about the cordial: "I
wonder what it was made of. Better not to know I expect"?
> (snip) and is accorded a memorial of sorts, his head stuck on a stake.
I'm not always sure when you are being serious and when you are being
ironic. The above is an example...
Henriette
Yuk Tang
news:be50318e.0407...@posting.google.com:
> news:<Xns9525B7FC06DF3...@130.133.1.4>...
>
> (snip good and short summary, thank you Yuk Tang! Taemon, maybe
> you don't have objections to making a relatively *short* summary?)
>
>> 2. What's the point of Pippin's diversion? The trackers knew
>> that he and Merry had been taken by Orcs, and could tell that
>> they were heading towards Isengard. (snip)
>>
> I think he acted intuitively on impulse, and was meant to do that.
> Which fits in with the general atmosphere of LOTR.
On impulse, but I just failed to see how it affected events to any
great degree. A touch like the 'Help me!' that bound sidekicks utter
when the hero confronts the villain; it's not as though the hero
would abandon his friends without such an entreaty.
>> 3. What was the orc-cordial? It invigorates upon imbibing, but
>> leaves the drinker dull after its effects have worn off, yet
>> leaves no lasting after-trace. Ginger brandy with an infusion of
>> chilli and garlic?
>>
> Are those your phantasies after Merry has said about the cordial:
> "I wonder what it was made of. Better not to know I expect"?
Just wondering. It's evidently quite disgusting, but has pretty
similar short-term effects to miruvor. Since I asked the question, I
felt that I should at least venture _some_ kind of answer; hence my
'phantasies'.
>> (snip) and is accorded a memorial of sorts, his head stuck on a
>> stake.
>
> I'm not always sure when you are being serious and when you are
> being ironic. The above is an example...
Trying to be different, and provoke an informed argument about things
not covered in the FAQs. Unfortunately, judging by Kohrs' comments,
I guess that I've been killfiled by most of the regulars who provide
the bulk of the discussions. Oh well, at least I've tried.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Taemon
> (snip good and short summary, thank you Yuk Tang! Taemon,
> maybe you don't have objections to making a relatively *short*
> summary?)
What do you call relative? I tend to think two sentences is more
than enough. Although, this was my summary for one of my Hobbit
chapters:
Bilbo and the dwarves journey through the Mirkwood, a gloomy
place with little light and no food. Eventually they leave the
path and get lost. Bilbo saves the dwarves from the big spiders
but for Thorin, who has been captured by the Wood-elves.
(or: I assume you all read the chapter, on with the nitpicking)
Why do you value those summaries so? I usually skip them, since
there is nothing new in there.
> > 2. What's the point of Pippin's diversion?
> I think he acted intuitively on impulse, and was meant to
> do that.
> Which fits in with the general atmosphere of LOTR.
Really, that's no answer. He did it because he did it?
Story-external, I'd say it is to show Pippin's somewhat
unexpected quick-thinking and level-mindedness. Story-internal -
maybe a cry for help? An action like that could help him believe
that there was actually help on the way? In his place, I wouldn't
dare hope that Aragorn was on his way to help _me_, not Frodo.
> I'm not always sure when you are being serious and when
> you are being ironic. The above is an example...
I like it when someone thinks of the orc's perspective of things!
T.
Yuk Tang
berlin.de:
> Henriette wrote:
>
>> (snip good and short summary, thank you Yuk Tang! Taemon,
>> maybe you don't have objections to making a relatively *short*
>> summary?)
>
> What do you call relative? I tend to think two sentences is more
> than enough. Although, this was my summary for one of my Hobbit
> chapters:
>
> Bilbo and the dwarves journey through the Mirkwood, a gloomy
> place with little light and no food. Eventually they leave the
> path and get lost. Bilbo saves the dwarves from the big spiders
> but for Thorin, who has been captured by the Wood-elves.
My fault. I haven't been following the CotWs in detail (just dipping
in here and there), so I was making my own path; reinventing the
wheel, one could say.
> (or: I assume you all read the chapter, on with the nitpicking)
A thoroughly sensible attitude.
> Why do you value those summaries so? I usually skip them, since
> there is nothing new in there.
>
>> > 2. What's the point of Pippin's diversion?
>> I think he acted intuitively on impulse, and was meant to
>> do that.
>> Which fits in with the general atmosphere of LOTR.
>
> Really, that's no answer. He did it because he did it?
> Story-external, I'd say it is to show Pippin's somewhat
> unexpected quick-thinking and level-mindedness.
The Hobbits-Grishnakh scene is also quite illustrative of the
differences between Merry and Pippin. Merry, bless him, is a brave
and warlike character. But his straightforward haggling with
Grishnakh was, I thought, rather less effective than and quite
counter-productive to Pippin's impersonation of Gollum. A current,
or former, Ringbearer would not be conducting negotiations about the
Precious. However, it would be quite plausible that he would have
been reduced to a nervous pulp by its effects, which was obviously
Pippin's idea.
> Story-internal -
> maybe a cry for help? An action like that could help him believe
> that there was actually help on the way? In his place, I wouldn't
> dare hope that Aragorn was on his way to help _me_, not Frodo.
>
>> I'm not always sure when you are being serious and when
>> you are being ironic. The above is an example...
>
> I like it when someone thinks of the orc's perspective of things!
It's boring when everyone reads the book the same way, taking the
side of the narrator, etc. Why not look at things from 'the other
side', and see how the story reinterprets itself? By striking for
the unknown and deliberately asking provocative questions (as long as
they're not covered by the FAQs), one can often learn new things
about the story.
--
Cheers, ymt.
the softrat
>
>I always thought it was coffee. Not Starbucks or Lavazza; no, this
>was some stale gas-station coffee. Bitter, dark, hot, and strong.
>Tolkien had a way of putting the real world's stimulants into Middle
>Earth, they had pipe weed and beer so why not coffee. Further, the
>Europeans got coffee from the Turks and the orcs are kind of
>eastern/african-esque in Tolkien's way, so it fits.
Your description fits French Truck-stop Coffee to a 'T'.
(Ah, that romantic place outside of Dijon ...... my throat will NEVER
forget!)
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Mr Bullfrog says, "Time's fun, when you're having flies!"
Emma Pease
Timeline
Feb 26
- Breaking of the Fellowship
- Frodo and Sam cross to the east bank and head off
- Merry and Pippin captured by orcs
- Death and funeral of Boromir
- late afternoon, Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas set off after the orcs
- evening, orcs stop for a while in the valley between the two ridges
of the Emyn Muil. Grishnakh leaves. Pippin frees his hands.
- early night, orcs reach the west edge of the Emyn Muil, sighted by a
rider of Rohan
- little bit later (moon hasn't set), Pippin swerves off and drops brooch
Feb 27
- dawn, Aragorn's party reaches the western ridge of the Emyn Muil,
Legolas sights an eagle heading north, orcs 12 leagues away
- early morning, find Pippin's brooch
- night, Aragorn's party rests, 12 leagues from the Emyn Muil
- midnight (probably 27/28), Eomer starts pursuing the Orcs
- Gandalf sees Treebeard but doesn't speak to him
Feb 28
- Aragorn's party continues NW
- dusk, are 24 leagues from the Emyn Muil
- night, rests
- morning, orc party camps temporarily on the banks of the Entwash,
Grishnakh rejoins
-dusk, Eomer's eored overtakes the Orcs at the edge of Fangorn
Feb 29
- pre-dawn, Merry and Pippin escape
- dawn, Eomer attacks and destroys the orcs
- just before noon, Aragorn's party reaches the downs
- find Orc camp (36 hours old)
- night, rests, 10 leagues from Fangorn
Merry and Pippin are prisoners from about mid-day 26 till about
midnight of the 28/29. A total of about 2 and half days. During this
time they had no food.
> Discussion points:
> 2. What's the point of Pippin's diversion? The trackers knew that
> he and Merry had been taken by Orcs, and could tell that they were
> heading towards Isengard. Since their bodies were not found on the
> trail, it would logically follow that they, or their bodies, were
> still headed towards Isengard, brooch or not brooch.
Well there was the possibility of a small group leaving the main party
with the hobbits. Aragorn does not seem to have noticed Grishnakh's
departure from the party in the Emyn Muil but Pippin who did know
might have thought it useful to convince any trackers that he was with
this party of orcs.
> 4. What did Grishnakh know about the Ring, and how did he know about
> it? It's been stated (admittedly by Gandalf, who's hardly 'in the
> loop') that Sauron doesn't trust anyone other than the Nazgul to deal
> with matters involving the One. Yet Grishnakh obviously knows of its
> allure, and its connections with Gollum. Was he one of the
> interrogators who wrung the information from Gollum in Barad Dur?
Grishnakh must have been highly trusted for an orc; he probably wasn't
one of the interrogators but probably was one of the interrogators'
guards. The original raiding party seems to have consisted of
1. The Isengard orcs led by Ugluk
2. The Moria orcs that had joined up with the Isengard orcs
3. Grishnakh apparently on his own
Grishnakh leaves and then rejoins later with some more Sauron orcs.
My thoughts
1. How did the raiding party get to Amon Hen and how long had they
been waiting? Aragorn doesn't seem to have come across any path of
the orcs heading towards the Emyn Muil. Note that Eomer's scouts
don't seen anything until the orcs return.
2. Why was Grishnakh apparently sent on his own?
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Henriette
> > I think he acted intuitively on impulse, and was meant to do that.
> > Which fits in with the general atmosphere of LOTR.
>
> On impulse, but I just failed to see how it affected events to any
> great degree. (snip)
Not to any great degree, but it does in detail: I love the exciting
moment when Pippin dares to dash off, and I love the moment the brooch
is found and the subsequent drawing of conclusions by Aragorn.
> > Are those your phantasies after Merry has said about the cordial:
> > "I wonder what it was made of. Better not to know I expect"?
>
> Just wondering. It's evidently quite disgusting, but has pretty
> similar short-term effects to miruvor. Since I asked the question, I
> felt that I should at least venture _some_ kind of answer; hence my
> 'phantasies'.
>
Yes. And they were actually quite funny, though disgusting. But not
nearly disgusting enough. I think, there is blood in there.
> > I'm not always sure when you are being serious and when you are
> > being ironic. The above is an example...
>
> Trying to be different, and provoke an informed argument about things
> not covered in the FAQs.
Which is a wonderful idea. It is just that when I'm not sure you are
serious, which I regularly am, I am not starting an argument. It may
be *me*; I thought you might like to know nevertheless.
> Unfortunately, judging by Kohrs' comments,
> I guess that I've been killfiled by most of the regulars who provide
> the bulk of the discussions. Oh well, at least I've tried.
After relatively few days, I see *five* regulars in 'your' thread who
provide part of the bulk of the discussions!
Henriette
Henriette
> Henriette wrote:
>
> > (snip)Taemon, maybe you don't have objections to making a relatively *short*
> > summary?)
>
> What do you call relative?
In comparison with the average length of the summaries in this thread.
You could make an 'indicatief referaat' where other posters make an
'informatief referaat'.
(snip)
> Why do you value those summaries so? I usually skip them, since
> there is nothing new in there.
>
a) To refresh my memory. I always read the chapter before joining the
CotW discussion, but sometimes I finished it a few days before and
have read many other things since. I also find it legitimate when
posters who have read LOTR do not re-read the chapter, but rely on the
summary.
b) Some discussions have evolved from the summaries, e.g because
things were missing or wrong, or comments were included.
> > I think he acted intuitively on impulse, and was meant to
> > do that. Which fits in with the general atmosphere of LOTR.
>
> Really, that's no answer. He did it because he did it?
What a strange conclusion you draw! I say:
a) he acts intuitively
b) he acts on impulse ( "Pippin's somewhat unexpected quick-thinking",
you say)
c) he was *meant* to do it
d) this action fits in with the general atmosphere of LOTR.
Your summary of my remarks is: 'he did it because he did it'? Maybe
just as well you don't make summaries!
H.
Kristian Damm Jensen
<snip>
> Merry and Pippin are prisoners from about mid-day 26 till about
> midnight of the 28/29. A total of about 2 and half days. During this
> time they had no food.
But they did!
"An Orc stooped over him, and flung him some bread and a strip of raw
dried flesh. He ate the stale grey bread hungrily, but not the meat.
He was famished but not yet so famished as to eat flesh flung to him
by an Orc, the flesh of he dared not guess what creature."
This is just before Grishnakh returns, i.e. on the morning of feb 28.
Your point stands, though: They would be starving after their ordeal
with the orcs.
<snip>
aelfwina
"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:be50318e.04071...@posting.google.com...
> Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns9526C590723CA...@130.133.1.4>...
> > held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote in
> > news:be50318e.0407...@posting.google.com:
>
> > > I think he acted intuitively on impulse, and was meant to do that.
> > > Which fits in with the general atmosphere of LOTR.
> >
> > On impulse, but I just failed to see how it affected events to any
> > great degree. (snip)
>
> Not to any great degree, but it does in detail: I love the exciting
> moment when Pippin dares to dash off, and I love the moment the brooch
> is found and the subsequent drawing of conclusions by Aragorn.
And, as I said, those conclusions by Aragorn *were* important. It let the
three hunters *know* that they had at *least* one hobbit still alive to
rescue, and that he was able to run, and had the use of his wits. After
all, up until this point, they could not be certain that the Orcs had not
simply carried off the hobbits' corpses for some foul reason. To me, this is
a necessary point, and not just a useless "help me."
Barbara
Guillaume Criloux
écrit :
>Your description fits French Truck-stop Coffee to a 'T'.
>
>(Ah, that romantic place outside of Dijon ...... my throat will NEVER
>forget!)
>
Was it a romantic truck stop ?
>the softrat
Guillaume
Taemon
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote in
> news:2lleuaFdin4oU1@uni- berlin.de:
> > What do you call relative? I tend to think two
> > sentences is more than enough. Although, this was my
> > summary for one of my Hobbit chapters:
<snip>
> My fault. I haven't been following the CotWs in detail
> (just dipping in here and there), so I was making my own
> path; reinventing the wheel, one could say.
Your fault about what? I wasn't critising you in any way!
Henriette and I are discussing whether or not I should do a
LotR-chapter, given my dislike of summaries :-)
> > I like it when someone thinks of the orc's perspective
> > of things!
> It's boring when everyone reads the book the same way,
> taking the side of the narrator, etc. Why not look at
> things from 'the other side', and see how the story
> reinterprets itself?
I always preferred stories with many viewpoints. A major weakness
of LotR, for me.
T.
Taemon
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
> news:<2lleuaF...@uni-berlin.de>...
> > What do you call relative?
> In comparison with the average length of the summaries in
> this thread.
> You could make an 'indicatief referaat' where other
> posters make an 'informatief referaat'.
Heh :-) I guess I could.
> b) Some discussions have evolved from the summaries, e.g
> because things were missing or wrong, or comments were
included.
I see. I'd still focus on the comments (keeping them out of the
summary, of course).
> > > I think he acted intuitively on impulse, and was
> > > meant to do that.
> > Really, that's no answer. He did it because he did it?
> What a strange conclusion you draw! I say:
>
> a) he acts intuitively
> b) he acts on impulse ( "Pippin's somewhat unexpected
> quick-thinking", you say)
> c) he was *meant* to do it
> d) this action fits in with the general atmosphere of LOTR.
> Your summary of my remarks is: 'he did it because he did
> it'? Maybe just as well you don't make summaries!
Well, it _was_ concise! But none of this is really an answer. "He
acts intuitively" means "He doesn't know why he does it". "He
acts on impulse" means the same thing. "He was meant to do that"
is, with all due respect, a hollow statement. It doesn't
enlighten us about why he did it. I liked my own analysis better
;-) (he did it because he wanted to believe help was on the
way).
T.
Neil Anderson
"aelfwina" <aelf...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:10f8pmc...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Yuk Tang" <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9525B7FC06DF3...@130.133.1.4...
> > Please reply to this thread instead of the other, since I forgot to
> > cross-post it to rabt.
> >
> > ********************
> >
> ( snip of very nice summary of an action packed chapter )
>
> > Discussion points:
> >
> > he and Merry had been taken by Orcs, and could tell that they were
> > heading towards Isengard. Since their bodies were not found on the
> > trail, it would logically follow that they, or their bodies, were
> > still headed towards Isengard, brooch or not brooch.
>
> Ah, but now Aragorn knows that at least one of them is not only alive, but
> has the use of his wits, and is healthy (uninjured) enough to leave the
> brooch. A useful thing to know.
>
> >
Obviously, Pippin DIDN't know whether Aragorn (or anyone else) knew if he
and Merry were alive or not - hence the need to make some nice clean tracks
and drop a token that anyione following him could find. He didn't even know
if anyone at all was chasing them.
We as readers knew that, but the hobbits themselves didn't, at that point in
the narrative.
Neil Anderson
Jim Deutch
>For whatever unknown reason, Grishnakh's band rejoins the
>Isengarders.
That's always confused me, too. In fact, I've been confused (at
various times) about who left, who returned, when, why, and how.
There are only two plausible reasons I can think of for their heading
off on their own:
- They may have been trying to contact other Orcs or a Nazgul: these
would probably have been stationed near or even across the Anduin.
- They might have just had a snit, and later thought better of it.
If Grishnakh &co headed back the other direction, towards the river,
how could they have ever managed to catch back up with Ugluk and the
rest? If it was just a snit, which direction did they go? Were they
just shadowing Ugluk at some distance for a while?
That latter theory seems the most plausible: ISTR that Ugluk, at
least, opined that Grishnakh came back because the "horseboys" were
hot on (all their) tails. If the two groups had truly split into
widely different directions, at least one group might have had hope of
eluding the Rohirrim.
[later]
Now I've seen Emma's timeline. I'd thought it was a day or two later
that Grishnakh's group split off! If it's really the evening of the
day they captured the hobbits, I think that lends support to the
theory that they were looking for more help, probably to overcome the
Isengarders and get the hobbits taken to Barad-dur instead.
It _couldn't_ be a result of being sighted by horsemen: that happened
_later_ (though the same night).
But how on ME does Grishnakh make his detour and yet still catch back
up? Ugluk was _not_ dawdling. And why doesn't Aragorn seem to have
any idea that there are two groups of orcs?
I see that Emma thinks Grishnakh was alone when he left, and
accompanied by other Mordor orcs when he returned. That makes much
sense, but I never got that from my reading (IDHTBIFOM)...
Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
I wish I deserved some self-esteem.
Jette Goldie
"the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:m6gbf0t27eafsjvgs...@4ax.com...
> On 14 Jul 2004 05:17:28 -0700, jsb...@yahoo.com (jsberry) wrote:
> >
> >I always thought it was coffee. Not Starbucks or Lavazza; no, this
> >was some stale gas-station coffee. Bitter, dark, hot, and strong.
> >Tolkien had a way of putting the real world's stimulants into Middle
> >Earth, they had pipe weed and beer so why not coffee. Further, the
> >Europeans got coffee from the Turks and the orcs are kind of
> >eastern/african-esque in Tolkien's way, so it fits.
>
> Your description fits French Truck-stop Coffee to a 'T'.
>
I dunno, sounds more like "Denny's" breakfast stuff - except
a bit stronger. "Subway" coffee was more like dishwater, so
it can't be that.
(never had a bad cup of coffee in France yet - not even
in a truck stop)
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Christopher Kreuzer
> I always preferred stories with many viewpoints. A major weakness
> of LotR, for me.
Ah! But there _are_ many viewpoints in LotR!! It is just a bit difficult
to discern them. True, the main viewpoint is the hobbits, but you also
have several grades of narration, switches into several other character
viewpoints, and several historical viewpoints.
From a purely story POV though, the hobbits do dominate, and I can see
why the might be considered a weakness (though it can be a strength as
well).
the softrat
<j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>
>(never had a bad cup of coffee in France yet - not even
>in a truck stop)
You live a charmed life.....
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"The POP3 server service depends on the SMTP server service,
which failed to start because of the following error: The
operation completed successfully." (Windows NT Server v3.51)
Emma Pease
Shortcut via Nazgul? Grishnakh taken north to a point on the Anduin
due east of the southern border of Fangorn where he meets up with a
party of Mordor orcs and heads due west to intercept Ugluk before he
gets to Fangorn (his due west path would be shorter than Ugluk's route
assuming he can be moved north very fast). Note the land is like
Fangorn Grishnakh path
_ ........|
\ |Anduin
Ugluk\ |
Path \ |
\ |
\ Emyn Muil
Aragorn is aware of two parties but in fact there are three parties
(Isengard orcs, Moria orcs, Mordor orcs) though I think the Mordor
orcs except for Grishnakh don't show up till later.
> I see that Emma thinks Grishnakh was alone when he left, and
> accompanied by other Mordor orcs when he returned. That makes much
> sense, but I never got that from my reading (IDHTBIFOM)...
I need to reread with your questions in mind.
My guess is that Sauron aimed to intercept at the rapids (hence the
ambush there) while Saruman aimed for Amon Hen. After the failure at
the rapids, the Nazgul sent a single orc (or a small party) to try to
subvert Saruman's orcs or, hmm, perhaps Grishnakh was with the Moria
orcs from the beginning as a backup in case the ambush failed.
Grishnakh failed to get the orcs to take the hobbits north so went
himself to report back to the Nazgul. He was ferried north, given
some backup, and told to try again. As a drawback, I would think
Sauron if he knew a party had actually captured hobbits (and Grishnakh
knew this and would presumably tell if he did report back) wouldn't
send a winged Nazgul across the river to retrieve. Perhaps they
didn't have time to report to Sauron and the Nazgul had no leeway on
his instructions not to cross the river.
Still doesn't explain why the Isengard orcs and the Moria orcs
apparently initially attacked separately (Pippin remembers the first
attack which Boromir beat off and then being attacked by larger orcs
while on their way back to Parth Galen).
Emma
Henriette
> "Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:be50318e.04071...@posting.google.com...
> > Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:
> > > (snip)I just failed to see how it affected events to any great degree.
> >
> > Not to any great degree, but it does in detail: I love the exciting
> > moment when Pippin dares to dash off, and I love the moment the brooch
> > is found and the subsequent drawing of conclusions by Aragorn.
>
> And, as I said, those conclusions by Aragorn *were* important. It let the
> three hunters *know* that they had at *least* one hobbit still alive to
> rescue, and that he was able to run, and had the use of his wits. After
> all, up until this point, they could not be certain that the Orcs had not
> simply carried off the hobbits' corpses for some foul reason. To me, this is
> a necessary point, and not just a useless "help me."
Yes. So one can back up the conclusion that the dropping of the brooch
*did* affect events to a great degree.
Henriette
Henriette
> Taemon <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
>
> > I always preferred stories with many viewpoints. A major weakness
> > of LotR, for me.
>
> Ah! But there _are_ many viewpoints in LotR!! It is just a bit difficult
> to discern them.
Difficult? Not at all. We get a *lot* of information that does not
come through the Hobbits.
> True, the main viewpoint is the hobbits, but you also
> have several grades of narration, switches into several other character
> viewpoints, and several historical viewpoints.
>
Well said!
Henriette
Henriette
> Well, it _was_ concise! But none of this is really an answer. "He
> acts intuitively" means "He doesn't know why he does it".
It means his intuition urged him to act. Why does his intuition, this
many layered phenomenon, urge him to do so? It may have been the part
called "sense of self-preservation".
> "He acts on impulse" means the same thing.
It means this intuitive flash is stronger than his fear. He acts in
spite of the severe consequences it may have. Impulse and intuition or
not at all the same, BTW. What *do* you cognitive scientists learn
anyway!
> "He was meant to do that" is, with all due respect, a hollow statement.
You say that, because to *you* it has no meaning. I am referrring to
the discussions we (not you) had about the many instances in LOTR
where things are *meant* to happen, because some Will is at work.
Sometimes it appears to be the will of the Ring, sometimes it is
strongly suggested it is the will of Providence.
> It doesn't
> enlighten us about why he did it. I liked my own analysis better
> ;-) (he did it because he wanted to believe help was on the way).
>
(H. intuitively represses impulse to comment)
H.
Henriette
> Yuk Tang wrote:
> > "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
> > > What do you call relative? I tend to think two
> > > sentences is more than enough. Although, this was my
> > > summary for one of my Hobbit chapters:
> <snip>
> > My fault. I haven't been following the CotWs in detail
> > (just dipping in here and there), so I was making my own
> > path; reinventing the wheel, one could say.
>
> Your fault about what? I wasn't critising you in any way!
> Henriette and I are discussing whether or not I should do a
> LotR-chapter, given my dislike of summaries :-)
>
Yes, and we were discussing summaries. Did you read into our
conversation that I thought your summary was too long? Au contraire.
Like I said in my first post: I thought it was (relatively, so
compared to the other CotW summaries)short but good (not missing
important points and besides written quickly!), which was meant as a
compliment.
Henriette
aelfwina
"Neil Anderson" <nanders...@northrock.bm> wrote in message
news:VJBJc.366$bA6.2...@newshog.newsread.com...
This is true. Pippin was acting out of desperate hope that *someone might*
be following, and even his own thought reflects that he knows this.
IDHTBIFOM but he thinks something like "I ought to hope they've all gone
with Frodo..." Nevertheless, it still holds true that it *was* a useful and
not a useless action.
Barbara
>
> Neil Anderson
>
>
Michael Ikeda
(snipped)
>
> Still doesn't explain why the Isengard orcs and the Moria orcs
> apparently initially attacked separately (Pippin remembers the
> first attack which Boromir beat off and then being attacked by
> larger orcs while on their way back to Parth Galen).
>
My guess would be, either the two groups arrived separately or, since
the Moria orcs were primarily after vengeance, the Moria orcs simply
charged in without waiting for Ugluk's forces.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Taemon
> Taemon <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
> > I always preferred stories with many viewpoints. A
> > major weakness of LotR, for me.
> Ah! But there _are_ many viewpoints in LotR!!
You are right, of course. I meant the Good vs Evil-thing. I miss
the voice of the orcs.
T.
Taemon
> Yes. So one can back up the conclusion that the dropping
> of the brooch *did* affect events to a great degree.
But how? I don't see it either.
T.
Taemon
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote in message news:
> > But none of this is really ananswer. "He
> > acts intuitively" means "He doesn't know why he does it".
> It means his intuition urged him to act. Why does his
> intuition, this many layered phenomenon, urge him to do
> so? It may have been the part called "sense of
> self-preservation".
Now that is really the question. Why did he do it? "Sense of
self-preservation" is a much better answer than "intuition",
wouldn't you say?
> > "He acts on impulse" means the same thing.
> It means this intuitive flash is stronger than his fear.
> He acts in spite of the severe consequences it may have.
I don't agree. Acting on impulse means _not_ taking consequences
into account.
> Impulse and intuition or not at all the same, BTW. What
> *do* you cognitive scientists learn anyway!
Well... we learn that "intuition" (knowledge gained by viewing
the whole picture, usually subconcious) is a right-hemisphere
function. We also learn that mathematics, as a sequential
process, is a left-hemisphere function. We learn that, when
taking very large groups into account, women are slightly better
in left-hemispheric functions than men, and vice versa.
We learn that common sense is the enemy of science ;-)
> > "He was meant to do that" is, with all due respect, a
> > hollow statement.
> You say that, because to *you* it has no meaning. I am
> referrring to the discussions we (not you) had about the
> many instances in LOTR where things are *meant* to
> happen, because some Will is at work. Sometimes it
> appears to be the will of the Ring, sometimes it is
> strongly suggested it is the will of Providence.
Of course. But just saying it is "meant" is no answer. Meant by
whom and why?
> (H. intuitively represses impulse to comment)
Oh, come on. You can do it!
T.
Prai Jei
<Xns9525B7FC06DF3...@130.133.1.4>:
> Discussion points:
>
> 1. Who are the Uruk-Hai? With the knowledge that the Olog-Hai were
> trolls (see barrowdowns.com for a fuller essay), it seems probable
> that the Uruk-Hai were the Orcish name for themselves, that 'Orc' and
> 'Yrch' were merely Elvish corruptions of the original.
"Yrch" is of course the plural ("Orcs"), singular presumably "Orch"
> Yet Ugluk
> refers to the Isengarders apart as the fighting Uruk-Hai, they who do
> the fighting, they who do the dirty work. One way of reconciling
> this is to consider Uruk-Hai as a term that can includes _all_ Orcs,
> but that there is also an ideal that Orcs aspire towards, that _this_
> was the ultimate in Uruk-Haidom. This explains Ugluk's later
> reference to 'the Uruk-Hai of Isengard', which can imply both their
> uniqueness as Isengard's brood, and their lack of uniqueness so that
> their Isengardian origin would need specifying.
"Hai" = "Big", "Grand" ("High"?!) or something like that. Perhaps if
"orc" ("uruk") is an ordinary orc, then an Uruk-Hai is a larger creature of
the same (or similar) species, which may be identified with the "hobgoblin
for the larger kind".
> 2. What's the point of Pippin's diversion? The trackers knew that
> he and Merry had been taken by Orcs, and could tell that they were
> heading towards Isengard.
To show that, at this point at least, he was still alive, to give the
trackers more heart to continue the chase.
> 3. What was the orc-cordial? It invigorates upon imbibing, but
> leaves the drinker dull after its effects have worn off, yet leaves
> no lasting after-trace. Ginger brandy with an infusion of chilli and
> garlic?
Presumably something akin to an Ent-draught? Liquid cram?
> 4. What did Grishnakh know about the Ring, and how did he know about
> it? It's been stated (admittedly by Gandalf, who's hardly 'in the
> loop') that Sauron doesn't trust anyone other than the Nazgul to deal
> with matters involving the One.
He probably knew of the ring-verse so he was familiar with the concept of a
One Ring even if for all he knew it were a mere legend. After three
millennia with no overt Ring-activity, such verses would have degenerated
on both sides into mere nursery rhymes, something to frighten the kiddies
with, be they dwarflings, hobbit-children or man cubs - or orclings.
> 5. Ugluk da Hero. [snip] While events (and Eomer) may have
> overtaken him, he meets a heroic end, and is accorded a memorial of
> sorts, his head stuck on a stake.
Far from heroic - this is traditionally an example to any who might emulate
his deeds - stop or you too will end up like this.
--
Paul Townsend
I put it down there, and when I went back to it, there it was GONE!
Interchange the alphabetic elements to reply
Tar-Elenion
abc.fsnet.co.uk says...
> Yuk Tang (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
> <Xns9525B7FC06DF3...@130.133.1.4>:
>
> > Discussion points:
> >
> > 1. Who are the Uruk-Hai? With the knowledge that the Olog-Hai were
> > trolls (see barrowdowns.com for a fuller essay), it seems probable
> > that the Uruk-Hai were the Orcish name for themselves, that 'Orc' and
> > 'Yrch' were merely Elvish corruptions of the original.
> "Yrch" is of course the plural ("Orcs"), singular presumably "Orch"
>
> > Yet Ugluk
> > refers to the Isengarders apart as the fighting Uruk-Hai, they who do
> > the fighting, they who do the dirty work. One way of reconciling
>
> > this is to consider Uruk-Hai as a term that can includes _all_ Orcs,
> > but that there is also an ideal that Orcs aspire towards, that _this_
> > was the ultimate in Uruk-Haidom. This explains Ugluk's later
> > reference to 'the Uruk-Hai of Isengard', which can imply both their
> > uniqueness as Isengard's brood, and their lack of uniqueness so that
> > their Isengardian origin would need specifying.
> "Hai" = "Big", "Grand" ("High"?!) or something like that. Perhaps if
> "orc" ("uruk") is an ordinary orc, then an Uruk-Hai is a larger creature of
> the same (or similar) species, which may be identified with the "hobgoblin
> for the larger kind".
Uruks is the anglicized form of Uruk-hai. This indicates that '-hai' is
a plural form. As such it probably means something like 'folk'. This
would also be supported by the Orcish name of the Druedain 'Oghor-hai'.
--
Tar-Elenion
He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.
aelfwina
You don't see that it *meant* something for the three hunters to *know* that
at least one of their friends was alive and more or less well, when up to
that point they were simply running on hope?
Barbara
>
> T.
>
>
Jette Goldie
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:26:28 GMT, "Jette Goldie"
> <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
> >
> >(never had a bad cup of coffee in France yet - not even
> >in a truck stop)
>
> You live a charmed life.....
Except in Florida, where I get rear-ended at an intersection
by a pick-up truck that doesn't even stop :-(
the softrat
*You* would!!
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Alas, usenet is where one will often see crowds of
people jumping up and down on the greasy smear on
the pavement that used to be a dead horse.
--Nyrath the Nearly Wise
the softrat
<j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>
>Except in Florida, where I get rear-ended at an intersection
>by a pick-up truck that doesn't even stop :-(
Rear-ending is the way they do it in Flordia.
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.
AC
Taemon <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
>
> I always preferred stories with many viewpoints. A major weakness
> of LotR, for me.
To be honest with you, I haven't read a lot of stories with what I would
consider multiple points of view. Most stories, LotR included, follow a
model of selecting protagonists and antagonists, and, other than setting up
why the good guys are good and the bad guys are bad, pretty much follow that
vein.
I don't think it's a weakness of LotR, any more than it is a weakness of the
thousands upon thousands of other volumes that use the same approach. It's
one way of telling a story. Certainly, from Tolkien's religious
perspective, Sauron and Saruman were fallen angels and sinners because they
defied Authority. Now I'm not saying a story that explained further why
they may have done this would be bad, but it would be a different story.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Taemon
> > Henriette wrote:
> > > Yes. So one can back up the conclusion that the
> > > dropping of the brooch *did* affect events to a great
> > > degree.
> > But how? I don't see it either.
> You don't see that it *meant* something for the three
> hunters to *know* that at least one of their friends was
> alive and more or less well, when up to that point they
> were simply running on hope?
A bit, yes, of course. But I don't see the "great degree". They
would have followed anyway, only probably a bit slower.
T.
Taemon
> Taemon <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
> > I always preferred stories with many viewpoints. A
> > major weakness of LotR, for me.
> To be honest with you, I haven't read a lot of stories
> with what I would consider multiple points of view.
They are rare.
> Most stories, LotR included, follow a model of selecting
> protagonists and antagonists, and, other than setting up
> why the good guys are good and the bad guys are bad,
> pretty much follow that vein.
Most of these are pretty bad.
Here's an excerpt from one Ian Montgomerie at
rec.arts.sf.written:
<huge snip>
If you look at what happens when people imitate Tolkien, what
mostly
happens is that they take the general nature of the setting and
tone
along with all its antiprogressive parts, and drop the
sophisticated
bits. And the result is stuff like the universal nature of Orcs
as
the universal fantasy evil who are, morally, treated as no
different
from rabid animal pests. Tolkien apparently worried about the
morality of just mowing down the Orcs, so he explicitly decided
that
they were created as inherently evil and irredeemable. He had
them
mostly be minor pests unless there was a Dark Lord handy to give
them
unity and focus. But most people don't seem to have gone even to
that
level of seeking rationalization. Orcs (and many other nasty
races
created from the same literary mold) are simply inherently evil
and
always wanting to pillage or conquer civilization. They may be
mowed
down with no compunction. They often appear to be 100%
combatants,
having no discernable women and children. They may not come with
any
particular creation myth, and in any given fictional world there
may
be no actual evidence presented to suggest that they're really
much
different from the barbarian raiders of much of human history -
and
yet still they are provided for the heroes to slaughter en masse
without a thought, while avoiding any of those uncomfortable
moral
questions that would come from butchering en masse any apparently
hostile group of humans. The good guys are almost invariably
facing a
horde of enemies out to crush all that is good and true out of
sheer
bloody-mindedness, and who can be killed without a thought
because
they cannot be negotiated with, cannot be coexisted with, and
don't
have any small element of justice to their own motivations. And
just
to keep things clear, they tend to be very open about being evil
conquerors who want power/chaos/death/etc. for its own sake,
unlike
humans who have a huge tendency to rationalize whatever they're
doing,
and sincerely believe they're morally justified even when they're
doing something profoundly nasty.
<end huge snip>
I can recommend everyone Julian May's Many-Coloured Land-series.
She's the master of showing all sides and the books are very
exciting to boot.
T.
Öjevind Lång
news:2lvhggF...@uni-berlin.de...
[snip]
Well, in Tolkien's work, they are quire clearly mythical creatures, like
ogres or dragons, so demanding human rights for them, so to speak, is rather
pointless. A mythical creature can incanate evil, which a human being can't.
Öjevind
Yuk Tang
>
> I can recommend everyone Julian May's Many-Coloured Land-series.
> She's the master of showing all sides and the books are very
> exciting to boot.
Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind, by Hayao Miyazaki. Intelligent,
balanced, philosophical and, if the Pentagon's assessments are anywhere
near accurate (and we see hints of their accuracy in many areas today),
prophetic. Plus beautiful artwork as well. And for those who want to
explore yet another medium, I recommend the film's music, especially
'Fantasia'; the film has one of the most memorable openings I've seen.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Taemon
> Well, in Tolkien's work, they are quire clearly mythical
> creatures, like ogres or dragons, so demanding human
> rights for them, so to speak, is rather pointless. A
> mythical creature can incanate evil, which a human being
> can't.
I think that, from a philosophical point of view, that doesn't
matter. And you mustn't forget that we're talking a whole species
here, not a few individuals. Orcs are born evil and born to be
slayed by anyone who wants and I have got a problem with that.
I know that most people differ from me in this. We don't have to
discuss it. It's just that I liked it very much that Yuk Tang put
some orc-perspective in zhir discussion.
T.
Emma Pease
It also means that when they meet up with Eomer they don't just take
his word for it that there were no hobbits with the orcs. Without the
clear evidence that at least one hobbit was still alive, considered
valuable enough to keep alive, and was with the party they were
following, they might have considered they had made an error. Perhaps
they missed a group splitting off in the Emyn Muil (and Aragorn did
miss Grishnakh leaving the party); perhaps the orcs had devoured the
hobbits at the first break and had just taken them that far instead of
leaving them dead on the battlefield because they wanted something
nice and tender (Boromir was a bit large to carry off).
Without the brooch, Aragorn may have been persuaded by Eomer to come
back with him to Edoras immediately.
John Jones
news:cd9ivi$3s6$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Hai" = "Big", "Grand" ("High"?!) or something like that. Perhaps if
> "orc" ("uruk") is an ordinary orc, then an Uruk-Hai is a larger creature
of
> the same (or similar) species, which may be identified with the "hobgoblin
> for the larger kind".
>
Where did you get this idea from? It is usually thought that the suffix
'-hai' means 'people': 'Uruk-hai' means 'orc-people' or just 'orcs', as
'Olog-hai' means 'trolls'.
(cf. Hindi 'Gora-log', 'white people', 'Bandar-log', 'monkeys').
Taemon
> Without the brooch, Aragorn may have been persuaded by
> Eomer to come back with him to Edoras immediately.
I don't think so, since Aragorn et al. KNEW the hobbits must have
been with that party, dead or alive. Éomer not seeing them
doesn't change the fact that they would have to be there. You
might be right. We'll never know.
T.
Emma Pease
Well dead they might have been but inside an orc. Also Aragorn and co
did cross the Emyn Muil in the dark, until Aragorn found the brooch
(not too far from the base of the Emyn Muil) he must have had a
niggling worry that the hobbits had been taken off in another
direction by a smaller party that he had failed to see (and we know he
failed to see signs of Grishnakh leaving so he wasn't infallible).
Emma
ps. I did a check, Aragorn makes no mention that any of the orcs found
dead either at the place where the orcs grabbed the hobbits or at the
orcs stopping place were wearing the red eye. Some were northern orcs
and some, at the first place only, were Isengard orcs. This
convinces me that Grishnakh must have been alone or with no more than
a couple of other Sauron orcs otherwise I don't see how Ugluk would
have failed to kill one at the stopping place (he would have killed
Grishnakh if Grishnakh not slipped away). When Grishnakh rejoins, his
entire party is wearing the red eye.
Belba Grubb from Stock
<nanders...@northrock.bm> wrote:
<snip>
>> > > 2. What's the point of Pippin's diversion? The trackers knew that
>> > he and Merry had been taken by Orcs, and could tell that they were
>> > heading towards Isengard. Since their bodies were not found on the
>> > trail, it would logically follow that they, or their bodies, were
>> > still headed towards Isengard, brooch or not brooch.
>>
>> Ah, but now Aragorn knows that at least one of them is not only alive, but
>> has the use of his wits, and is healthy (uninjured) enough to leave the
>> brooch. A useful thing to know.
>>
>> >
>> <snip to end>
>
>Obviously, Pippin DIDN't know whether Aragorn (or anyone else) knew if he
>and Merry were alive or not - hence the need to make some nice clean tracks
>and drop a token that anyione following him could find. He didn't even know
>if anyone at all was chasing them.
>
>We as readers knew that, but the hobbits themselves didn't, at that point in
>the narrative.
Indeed, Pippin had a "vision" of Strider pursuing just before he ran
out, but he believed that all the others had "probably all gone with
Frodo." He was just acting in hope, blind and seemingly useles as it
seemed at the time.
Barb
_____
Believing is seeing.
-- Anonymous geologist
_____
Belba Grubb from Stock
wrote:
Also, as far as the Three Hunters knew, they would have to deal with
the entire Orc band to rescue the hobbits, once they caught up with
them -- knowing that at least one of the hobbits was alive and able
to use his wits, at least at that earlier stage of the chase, gave
them the option of somehow working in collusion with at least one of
the captives, when they finally caught up with the band: more
strategies.
Belba Grubb from Stock
>1. Who are the Uruk-Hai? With the knowledge that the Olog-Hai were
>trolls (see barrowdowns.com for a fuller essay), it seems probable
>that the Uruk-Hai were the Orcish name for themselves, that 'Orc' and
>'Yrch' were merely Elvish corruptions of the original. Yet Ugluk
>refers to the Isengarders apart as the fighting Uruk-Hai, they who do
>the fighting, they who do the dirty work. One way of reconciling
>this is to consider Uruk-Hai as a term that can includes _all_ Orcs,
>but that there is also an ideal that Orcs aspire towards, that _this_
>was the ultimate in Uruk-Haidom. This explains Ugluk's later
>reference to 'the Uruk-Hai of Isengard', which can imply both their
>uniqueness as Isengard's brood, and their lack of uniqueness so that
>their Isengardian origin would need specifying. However, we must
>remember that the evidence for this comes via Hobbit chroniclers, and
>as their account of the army of Isengard implied, the eye (ear?)
>witnesses thought that Uruks were a group apart.
Given the note in Appendix F that the big Uruk-Hai came from both
Mordor and Isengard, my impression is that the "fighting Uruk-Hai"
name the Isengarders give themselves is a slap at the Uruk-Hai of
Mordor, implying that they're wimps and slackers. Of course, Ugluk is
more direct, too, calling them "swine" and saying they "no guts
outside your own sties."
The Isengarders seem to have "Uruk-Hai" spirit. The ones from Mordor
don't; perhaps with the Dark Lord and Nazgul around, it's better to
just keep their heads down and maintain a low profile.
It's interesting that Grishnakh insults Ugluk and stirs up a fight by
implying that the Isengarders feed on Orc flesh. Apparently
cannibalism wasn't that common among them after all.
I like that description of the running Orcs' legs as "going up and
down, up and down, unresting, as if they were made of wire and horn,
beating out the nightmare seconds of an endless time." Very
mechanical sounding, and unpleasant, just what one would expect of
JRRT (g).
Has "Ugluk u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob bubhosh skai" ever been
translated?
>4. What did Grishnakh know about the Ring, and how did he know about
>it? It's been stated (admittedly by Gandalf, who's hardly 'in the
>loop') that Sauron doesn't trust anyone other than the Nazgul to deal
>with matters involving the One. Yet Grishnakh obviously knows of its
>allure, and its connections with Gollum. Was he one of the
>interrogators who wrung the information from Gollum in Barad Dur?
Well, he's seen Gollum recently, as Gollum probably told the Orcs on
the east bank of Anduin the whereabouts of the Fellowship during the
trip down from Lorien. Aragorn was concerned that he would, and later
on Gollum admits to Frodo that he's talked with Orcs along the way.
And Gollum was sort of famous among the Orcs, wasn't he -- having been
released from Mordor on the orders from Higher Up and so forth. There
would be a lot of talk about him, even beyond the Orcs of Cirith Ungol
and Minas Morgul.
And as someone else has mentioned, Grishnakh might also have heard
something he wasn't supposed to, especially if he's been around the
Nazgul for a while and conversing with other Orcs who may have served
in high places, so perhaps he knows or has guessed enough about the
Ring to desire it himself.
Somehow, I don't think he would have been one of the interrogators as
that seems to be specialized work that would be reserved for
higher-ranking sorts; interrogators wouldn't have done double duty
running around the fields of Rohan -- Sauron wouldn't want to risk his
specialists (and their knowledge) like that.
>5. Ugluk da Hero. We see in the Hobbits the attributes of heroism,
>as recognised in Tolkien's world. Frodo: wisdom, Sam: faithfulness,
>Merry: courage, Pippin: wit. This can be seen in purer form in the
>Silm, but within LotR (and this chapter) we can see what sets Ugluk
>apart from the other Orcs. He is faithful to his master, delivering
>the Hobbits as requested, and trusting the White Hand to send him
>reinforcements to finish the job. He is canny enough to concentrate
>on realistic objectives, keeping the ultimate end in sight but
>shaping their efforts to achieve that end. He is quick-witted enough
>to react successfully to the machinations of Grishnakh, and to make
>snap decisions to maximise their chances of success. And finally,
>his courage cannot be questioned. While events (and Eomer) may have
>overtaken him, he meets a heroic end, and is accorded a memorial of
>sorts, his head stuck on a stake. While ignominious to our eyes, it
>shows that Eomer evidently thought much of his opponent, that he
>dismounted and fought him on foot, and giving him this special
>treatment after.
Well, I don't know the head on the stake was a memorial -- the
victorious dwarves after the Battle of Azanulbizar didn't intend it
that way when they did the same with Azog's head. More like a
warning, as someone has said, to other Orcs (and more importantly to
Ugluk's master Saruman, right there at the borders of his Fangorn, as
close to Isengard as you could get in East Rohan). But otherwise,
well said. It's very easy to just write off the Orcs as bad guys, but
really, by giving them these "positive" characteristics, it makes the
good guys look even better.
I don't know that Ugluk outwitted Grishnakh -- again, Ugluk had
"spirit," but Grishnakh had the brains to keep his men together and
behind the Isengarders in the latter stage of the race and to make a
try for the Ring himself that last night when it was obvious that the
Riders were going to kill them all at dawn. The hobbits outwitted
him, though it might have cost them dearly if that Rider hadn't
happened to be nearby.
Tar-Elenion
ba...@dbtech.net says...
>
> Has "Ugluk u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob bubhosh skai" ever been
> translated?
Your choice, two of JRRT's translations have been published:
"Uglúk to the cesspool, sha! the dungfilth; the great Saruman-fool,
skai!"
PoME
"Uglúk to the dung-pit with stinking Saruman-filth, pig-guts, gah!"
Vinyar Tengwar
Aravorn82
>
> Also, as far as the Three Hunters knew, they would have to deal with
> the entire Orc band to rescue the hobbits, once they caught up with
> them -- knowing that at least one of the hobbits was alive and able
> to use his wits, at least at that earlier stage of the chase, gave
> them the option of somehow working in collusion with at least one of
> the captives, when they finally caught up with the band: more
> strategies.
>
This brings up something that I intially wondered about the first time
I read the book. How, exactly, did Aragorn, Legolas and Gimili even
hope to defeat the entire orc band? It seems that there are at least a
hundered orcs.
From the description given in this chapter, Eomer's army of 200 men
has to utilise some very careful tactics overnight before attacking at
dawn. Despite these tactics, from the previous chapter we learn that
Eomer has lost about (I don't have the books with me) 20 men. These
were mounted and armoured men.
As an indication of the fighting ability of ordrinary orcs, as
compared to uruk-hai: 3000 years earlier, Isildur's band of 200 men
was totally defeated by 2000 orcs - I remember reading somewhere that
they were outnumbered 1:10. Aragorn and company are out numbered at
least 1:30. From the descriptions given of Uruk-hai, they seem to be
much more powerful warriors than the other orcs.
When the three hunters set out, they had neither armour (except Gimli)
nor horses. Despite the fact that they were probably the three
greatest warriors of that era, I don't see how they could hope to
defeat the orcs and rescue the hobbits.
From a story external veiwpoint, Tolkien's choice to have the three
hunters pursue the orcs certainly makes sense. The chase, veiwed from
both the hunters' and the hobbits' perspectives, certainly makes for
some gripping reading.
However, it would be interesting to hear others' ideas for
story-internal explanations or possibilities regarding the chase.
Aravorn82
aelfwina
"Aravorn82" <arav...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ff50e416.04072...@posting.google.com...
I had alway assumed Aragorn had some sort of plan in mind to try and rescue
them covertly, perhaps sneaking in after them while the Orcs camped, or
maybe creating some sort of diversion. As a Ranger, I'm sure he would have
thought of a lot of possible strategies. I believe he would know that any
kind of open assault on them would have done the hobbits about as much good
as Boromir's defense did, and have much the same kind of results.
I can easily see the three of them using the old action movie
one-good-guy-picking-off-the-bad-guys-a-few-at-a-time idea, for one example.
Barbara
>
> Aravorn82
Öjevind Lång
news:28vnf0t664rgn8t3t...@4ax.com...
[snip]
> Given the note in Appendix F that the big Uruk-Hai came from both
> Mordor and Isengard, my impression is that the "fighting Uruk-Hai"
> name the Isengarders give themselves is a slap at the Uruk-Hai of
> Mordor, implying that they're wimps and slackers. Of course, Ugluk is
> more direct, too, calling them "swine" and saying they "no guts
> outside your own sties."
When Uglúk said that he was addressing the Orcs who had come south from
Moria to exact revenge for all their mates killed by the Fellowship.
Öjevind
Christopher Kreuzer
[about Pippin acting on impulse]
>>> "He acts on impulse" means the same thing.
>> It means this intuitive flash is stronger than his fear.
>> He acts in spite of the severe consequences it may have.
>
> I don't agree. Acting on impulse means _not_ taking consequences
> into account.
The quotes from the book seem contradictory:
"Every now and again there came into his mind unbidden a vision of
[Strider examining the trail but having difficulty]."
"A sudden thought leaped into Pippin's mind, and he acted on it at once.
He swerved aside to the right, and dived... [leaves marks and drops
brooch]."
"I [Pippin] don't know why I did it. If the others have escaped, they've
probably all gone with Frodo."
This does sound impulsive, but it also seems like some other power is
directing things to happen and giving some sort of visions.
Are there any other impulsive or 'guided' events we can compare this to
in the book? I can only think of Frodo's premonition to get off the road
in the Shire when the Black Rider appears, Frodo's decision to accept
the Ring in Rivendell, Pippin's decision to take service with Denethor,
Sam's decision to go back to Frodo's body after leaving it.
Impulse or divine guidance?
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Igenlode Wordsmith
[snip]
> 1. How did the raiding party get to Amon Hen and how long had they
> been waiting? Aragorn doesn't seem to have come across any path of
> the orcs heading towards the Emyn Muil. Note that Eomer's scouts
> don't seen anything until the orcs return.
>
I was wondering what they were doing there in the first place: Pippin
says "they were standing listening" and clearly not expecting the
hobbits, let alone lying in wait for them. Did either Saruman or Sauron
know the Ring-bearer would be landing at Parth Galen? And if they did,
what was the point of hanging around a mile away, listening? Why not an
all-out attack on the camp - Boromir, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli all
together would scarcely have been a match for over a hundred Orcs with
bows in the open?
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
We live in a culture in which being well-spoken is considered
proof of insincerity.
Igenlode Wordsmith
[snip]
> For whatever unknown reason, Grishnakh's band rejoins the
> Isengarders. After another argument about the effectiveness
> of Grishnakh's Nazgul superiors, the Isengarders take possession of
> the Hobbits.
The bit I wondered about was what exactly the Isengarders and the
Moria-orcs were quarrelling about while Grisnakh was absent. The
outcome of the disagreement appears to be that the Northerners run for
the cover of the forest... but the Isengarders then proceed to run for
the forest in their turn, and there doesn't appear to be any suggestion
that they had planned at this stage to do otherwise. So why did the
Moria-orcs disagree and then do exactly the same as the Isengarders,
who eventually end up overtaking them anyway?
[snip]
> 1. Who are the Uruk-Hai? With the knowledge that the Olog-Hai were
> trolls (see barrowdowns.com for a fuller essay), it seems probable
> that the Uruk-Hai were the Orcish name for themselves,
I thought the Olog-hai were new and improved trolls - more intelligent
than Bert, Bill and Tom, and more hardy to sunlight. That would seem to
correspond with the Uruk-hai as being similarly improved orcs; they are
bigger, arguably more intelligent, and unafraid of the sun.
[snip]
> 5. Ugluk da Hero.
[snip]
> He is faithful to his master, delivering
> the Hobbits as requested, and trusting the White Hand to send him
> reinforcements to finish the job. He is canny enough to concentrate
> on realistic objectives, keeping the ultimate end in sight but
> shaping their efforts to achieve that end. He is quick-witted enough
> to react successfully to the machinations of Grishnakh, and to make
> snap decisions to maximise their chances of success. And finally,
> his courage cannot be questioned.
I was wondering if I was the only one who ended up actually hoping the
orcs would get away, once Merry and Pippin had escaped! Too much
reading about the battle of Waterloo, I think... there are the besieged
infantry being gradually worn down by their mounted attackers, holding
stubbornly on for hour after hour after hour while awaiting dusk, and
the coming of reinforcements... They tried so fiercely and so hard, and
got so very near to safety.
Of course, going by the later fate of the army that attacked Helm's
Deep, it's possible that they wouldn't have found Fangorn anything like
the refuge they were hoping for!
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
** One good hope is worth a cartload of certainties **
Dirk Thierbach
> 1. Who are the Uruk-Hai? With the knowledge that the Olog-Hai were
> trolls (see barrowdowns.com for a fuller essay), it seems probable
> that the Uruk-Hai were the Orcish name for themselves, that 'Orc' and
> 'Yrch' were merely Elvish corruptions of the original.
I don't think so. ETYM has the entry OROK "goblin". It is also mentioned
somewhere that the Black Speech was made by Morgoth by perverting
the elven language (again along the "evil cannot create, just
mock" line).
And as somebody else has said, "hai" is very probably just a qualifier
like "big".
BTW, for some reason I never noticed that orok > orc and uruk have
the same root. I wonder if olog and onod (Ent) are related?
> Yet Ugluk refers to the Isengarders apart as the fighting Uruk-Hai,
> they who do the fighting, they who do the dirty work.
The big, bad fighting orcs, not just the ordinary orcs (= uruk). Makes
perfect sense.
> 3. What was the orc-cordial? It invigorates upon imbibing, but
> leaves the drinker dull after its effects have worn off, yet leaves
> no lasting after-trace. Ginger brandy with an infusion of chilli and
> garlic?
I also always imagined something strongly alcoholic.
> 5. Ugluk da Hero. We see in the Hobbits the attributes of heroism,
> as recognised in Tolkien's world. Frodo: wisdom, Sam: faithfulness,
> Merry: courage, Pippin: wit. This can be seen in purer form in the
> Silm, but within LotR (and this chapter) we can see what sets Ugluk
> apart from the other Orcs.
Very good points. Thanks.
- Dirk
Dirk Thierbach
> On 13 Jul 2004 17:05:11 GMT, Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>For whatever unknown reason, Grishnakh's band rejoins the
>>Isengarders.
> That latter theory seems the most plausible: ISTR that Ugluk, at
> least, opined that Grishnakh came back because the "horseboys" were
> hot on (all their) tails.
That's what I always thought.
- Dirk
Odysseus
>
[snip]
> And as someone else has mentioned, Grishnakh might also have heard
> something he wasn't supposed to, especially if he's been around the
> Nazgul for a while and conversing with other Orcs who may have served
> in high places, so perhaps he knows or has guessed enough about the
> Ring to desire it himself.
>
Or at least enough to know how badly the 'higher-ups' want it; he
might well stand to be promoted or otherwise rewarded if he can bring
it back to Lugburz.
--
Odysseus
Odysseus
>
> The bit I wondered about was what exactly the Isengarders and the
> Moria-orcs were quarrelling about while Grisnakh was absent. The
> outcome of the disagreement appears to be that the Northerners run for
> the cover of the forest... but the Isengarders then proceed to run for
> the forest in their turn, and there doesn't appear to be any suggestion
> that they had planned at this stage to do otherwise. So why did the
> Moria-orcs disagree and then do exactly the same as the Isengarders,
> who eventually end up overtaking them anyway?
>
Maybe the argument was over "executing a tactical withdrawal" vs.
"running away". ;)
--
Odysseus
Öjevind Lång
meddelandet news:2004072106115...@riot.eu.org...
[snip]
> The bit I wondered about was what exactly the Isengarders and the
> Moria-orcs were quarrelling about while Grisnakh was absent. The
> outcome of the disagreement appears to be that the Northerners run for
> the cover of the forest... but the Isengarders then proceed to run for
> the forest in their turn, and there doesn't appear to be any suggestion
> that they had planned at this stage to do otherwise. So why did the
> Moria-orcs disagree and then do exactly the same as the Isengarders,
> who eventually end up overtaking them anyway?
Perhaps Uglúk wanted all the orcs to stick together as a single, disciplined
unit whereas the Moria-orcs were too frightened to stay around until
daylight. It is also possible, of course, that the Moria-orcs meant to skirt
Fagorn and return to Moria instead of going to Isengard with Uglúk. Then
they were all overtaken by Èoemer's éored, so the question of where to go
became academic.
Öjevind
Tar-Elenion
says...
> Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > 1. Who are the Uruk-Hai? With the knowledge that the Olog-Hai were
> > trolls (see barrowdowns.com for a fuller essay), it seems probable
> > that the Uruk-Hai were the Orcish name for themselves, that 'Orc' and
> > 'Yrch' were merely Elvish corruptions of the original.
>
> I don't think so. ETYM has the entry OROK "goblin". It is also mentioned
> somewhere that the Black Speech was made by Morgoth by perverting
> the elven language (again along the "evil cannot create, just
> mock" line).
>
> And as somebody else has said, "hai" is very probably just a qualifier
> like "big".
>
> BTW, for some reason I never noticed that orok > orc and uruk have
> the same root. I wonder if olog and onod (Ent) are related?
>
> > Yet Ugluk refers to the Isengarders apart as the fighting Uruk-Hai,
> > they who do the fighting, they who do the dirty work.
>
> The big, bad fighting orcs, not just the ordinary orcs (= uruk). Makes
> perfect sense.
>
/Orcs and the Black Speech/. Orc is the form of the name that other
races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In
Sindarin it was /orch/. Related, no doubt, was the word /uruk/ of the
Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great
soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The
lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, /snaga/ 'slave'.
LotR, App. F
"/Uruks/ Anglicized form of /Uruk-hai/ of the Black Speech; a race of
Orcs of great size and strength."
UT, Index
The Orcs called the Druedain Oghor-hai.
'-hai' does not seem to mean 'big'. Rather it seems to mean 'folk'.
Taemon
> I was wondering if I was the only one who ended up
> actually hoping the orcs would get away, once Merry and
> Pippin had escaped!
Heh :-) I, too, always thinks such things. In the Battle of the
Five Armies, it is said that two-thirds of the orc population
from the Misty Mountains has been killed. I always thought that
very sad for the survivors.
T.
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
> Heh :-) I, too, always thinks such things. In the Battle of the
> Five Armies, it is said that two-thirds of the orc population
> from the Misty Mountains has been killed. I always thought that
> very sad for the survivors.
It was probably even sadder for those who got killed. [D & RC]
Öjevind
Taemon
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> skrev i meddelandet
> news:2m7tmkF...@uni-berlin.de...
> > Heh :-) I, too, always thinks such things. In the
> > Battle of the Five Armies, it is said that two-thirds
> > of the orc population from the Misty Mountains has been
> > killed. I always thought that very sad for the
> > survivors.
> It was probably even sadder for those who got killed. [D
> & RC]
Of course not. They are dead and hence beyond suffering. Death is
always worse for the survivors who have to live without their
loved ones.
T.
AC
>> of the brooch *did* affect events to a great degree.
>
> But how? I don't see it either.
I always got the impression that it raised the spirits of Gimli, Aragorn and
Legolas. Even with Saruman's spell (as I'm assuming that weariness they
felt was), it was a moral boost. It gave them hope that the hobbits might
still be found alive.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Yuk Tang
berlin.de:
I posed the question a while ago, which of course, considering the
subject area, was never answered. How did the Orcish population of
the Misty Mountains recover after BoFA? Were Orcish women
monogamous? Did they take new husbands (if they had such a custom)
after their existing ones were left on the field? Imagine the
mourning after news came to them of the events on Erebor.
And there's the example of the Rohirric attempt to exterminate the
Orcish population in the White Mountains. What brought them to such
a terminal campaign? What happened to Orcs that tried to flee or
surrender? If Eomund and Eomer were typical examples of the Rohirric
chivalry, I'd pity their Orcish opponents.
--
Cheers, ymt.
John Jones
Tolkien knew all about this - he served in the Great War, at the end of
which all but one of his friends had been killed. There were whole districts
in which all the young men were lost.
Yuk Tang
news:cdqfff$5g7$2...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk:
Weren't the Pals Battalions discontinued after the Somme, when some
towns barely saw any action whilst others were wiped out?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwone/pals_01.shtml
--
Cheers, ymt.
Huan the hound
The dropping of the brooch also caused them to not chase the
orcs by night, so fell further behind.
Huan, the hound of Valinor
--
Therefore he sent a wolf to the bridge. But Huan slew it
silently. Still Sauron sent others one by one; and one by
one Huan took them by the throat and slew them.
Taemon
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
> news:2m7tmkF...@uni-berlin.de...
> > In the Battle of the Five Armies, it is said that two-thirds
> > of the orc population from the Misty Mountains has been
> > killed. I always thought that very sad for the
> > survivors.
> Tolkien knew all about this - he served in the Great War,
> at the end of which all but one of his friends had been
> killed. There were whole districts in which all the young
> men were lost.
But those weren't orcs. Somehow, that does seem to make it worse.
T.
Taemon
> And there's the example of the Rohirric attempt to
> exterminate the Orcish population in the White Mountains.
> What brought them to such a terminal campaign? What
> happened to Orcs that tried to flee or surrender? If
> Eomund and Eomer were typical examples of the Rohirric
> chivalry, I'd pity their Orcish opponents.
And after Helm's Deep, the human opponents were allowed to
surrender. The Enlightened King-to-be ordered the orcs to be
killed.
T.
Taemon
> The dropping of the brooch also caused them to not chase
> the orcs by night, so fell further behind.
And there's that. I hadn't even thought on that.
T.
Taemon
> And after Helm's Deep, the human opponents were allowed to
> surrender. The Enlightened King-to-be ordered the orcs to
> be killed.
On closer reading, Taemon might have been wrong here. Sorry! I
was to quick in my righteousness!
T.
Öjevind Lång
Yes, IIRC, all the orcs fled into the forest of huorns and were never heard
of again.
Öjevind
AC
Huan the hound <huanth...@netscape.net> wrote:
> AC posted on 7/22/04 1:21 PM:
>
>> On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:55:02 +0200,
>> Taemon <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
>>
>>>Henriette wrote:
>>>
>>>>Yes. So one can back up the conclusion that the dropping
>>>>of the brooch *did* affect events to a great degree.
>>>
>>>But how? I don't see it either.
>>
>> I always got the impression that it raised the spirits of Gimli, Aragorn and
>> Legolas. Even with Saruman's spell (as I'm assuming that weariness they
>> felt was), it was a moral boost. It gave them hope that the hobbits might
>> still be found alive.
>
> The dropping of the brooch also caused them to not chase the
> orcs by night, so fell further behind.
Fool of a Took!!!
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:2mcl6qF...@uni-berlin.de:
> AC posted on 7/22/04 1:21 PM:
>
>> On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:55:02 +0200,
>> Taemon <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
>>
>>>Henriette wrote:
>>>
>>>>Yes. So one can back up the conclusion that the dropping
>>>>of the brooch *did* affect events to a great degree.
>>>
>>>But how? I don't see it either.
>>
>> I always got the impression that it raised the spirits of
>> Gimli, Aragorn and Legolas. Even with Saruman's spell (as
>> I'm assuming that weariness they felt was), it was a moral
>> boost. It gave them hope that the hobbits might still be
>> found alive.
>
> The dropping of the brooch also caused them to not chase the
> orcs by night, so fell further behind.
>
That might have been "meant" as well - it allowed enough mileage
between the trio and the orcs for the Riders to wipe out the
orcs and Merry and Pippin to escape into Fangorn (which turned
out to be a good thing) without wiping out Aragorn, Gimli and
Legolas. Had they (Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas) caught up with
the orcs sooner, they might have been killed in the melee - or
too much sooner, and they might have been killed by the orcs.
And if they had managed to spirit the hobbits away sooner, would
anyone have gone into Fangorn ?
It is really hard to tell sometimes when Tolkien is tossing in a
bit of Providence. Perhaps this is one of those times.
--
TeaLady (mari)
"Indeed, literary analysis will be a serious undertaking only
when it adopts the mindset of quantum physics and regards the
observer as part of the experiment."
Flame of the West on litcrit
Taemon
> That might have been "meant" as well -
It is hard to ask questions about Lord of the Rings when "it is
meant" is always lurking on the background. It doesn't add
anything to the discussion. Since we can't possibly know what is
meant and what not, and since we are speculating about a work of
fiction, I suggest it might be more constructive to let the
"meant"-argument out of the arguments. Nothing personal
suggested, of course.
> it allowed enough
> mileage between the trio and the orcs for the Riders to
> wipe out the orcs and Merry and Pippin to escape into
> Fangorn
So maybe Pippin shouldn't have dropped the brooch, thereby
slowing the trio down? ;-)
T.
TT Arvind
> How did the Orcish population of
> the Misty Mountains recover after BoFA? Were Orcish women
> monogamous? Did they take new husbands (if they had such a custom)
> after their existing ones were left on the field?
envisaged them as taking whatever she-orc they felt like when they felt
like it. He doesn't really seem to have thought of them as being proper
living creatures until he got to the Myths Transformed phase and started
thinking through the theological implications of his views. For example,
his description of the Last Alliance: "All living things were divided in
that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in
either host, save the Elves only." Unless JRRT was telling us that Gil-
Galad had a secret orcish battalion, he left out the orcs when talking
about 'living things'.
--
Meneldil
Weiner's Law of Libraries: There are no answers, only cross-references.
Öjevind Lång
news:MPG.1b6e1c3c7...@news.individual.net...
[snip]
> Given what Tolkien appeared to think of orcs, I'd hazard that he
> envisaged them as taking whatever she-orc they felt like when they felt
> like it. He doesn't really seem to have thought of them as being proper
> living creatures until he got to the Myths Transformed phase and started >
thinking through the theological implications of his views. For example, >
his description of the Last Alliance: "All living things were divided in
> that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in
> either host, save the Elves only." Unless JRRT was telling us that Gil-
> Galad had a secret orcish battalion, he left out the orcs when talking
> about 'living things'.
The Eldar-hai?
Öjevind
Belba Grubb from Stock
wrote:
>Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message news:<h1snf0d7knu2dllo2...@4ax.com>...
>
>>
>> Also, as far as the Three Hunters knew, they would have to deal with
>> the entire Orc band to rescue the hobbits, once they caught up with
>> them -- knowing that at least one of the hobbits was alive and able
>> to use his wits, at least at that earlier stage of the chase, gave
>> them the option of somehow working in collusion with at least one of
>> the captives, when they finally caught up with the band: more
>> strategies.
>>
>
>This brings up something that I intially wondered about the first time
>I read the book. How, exactly, did Aragorn, Legolas and Gimili even
>hope to defeat the entire orc band? It seems that there are at least a
>hundered orcs.
They had not just the orcs to contend with, but also Saruman, as they
soon realized. Their best chance, such as it was, would be to get the
hobbits free as soon as possible, because Saruman's influence would
increase the closer the band got to Fangorn and then to Isengard.
>From the description given in this chapter, Eomer's army of 200 men
>has to utilise some very careful tactics overnight before attacking at
>dawn. Despite these tactics, from the previous chapter we learn that
>Eomer has lost about (I don't have the books with me) 20 men. These
>were mounted and armoured men.
>
>As an indication of the fighting ability of ordrinary orcs, as
>compared to uruk-hai: 3000 years earlier, Isildur's band of 200 men
>was totally defeated by 2000 orcs - I remember reading somewhere that
>they were outnumbered 1:10. Aragorn and company are out numbered at
>least 1:30. From the descriptions given of Uruk-hai, they seem to be
>much more powerful warriors than the other orcs.
>
>When the three hunters set out, they had neither armour (except Gimli)
>nor horses. Despite the fact that they were probably the three
>greatest warriors of that era, I don't see how they could hope to
>defeat the orcs and rescue the hobbits.
>
>From a story external veiwpoint, Tolkien's choice to have the three
>hunters pursue the orcs certainly makes sense. The chase, veiwed from
>both the hunters' and the hobbits' perspectives, certainly makes for
>some gripping reading.
Never thought of it till now, but this willingness of Aragorn's to
engage in a seemingly hopeless venture, with others willing to follow
him, does also give us a precedent for his later decision to attack
Mordor, no?
>However, it would be interesting to hear others' ideas for
>story-internal explanations or possibilities regarding the chase.
A knowledge of history (familiarity with "The Silmarillion") would be
helpful here. I'm not too knowledgeable with that, but even so can
immediately recall the way Beren crept into the Orc camp and slew the
Orc captain as he was holding up Barahir's hand as a trophy, seized
the hand and escaped unharmed. This gives us an idea of at least one
method of dealing with the Orcs that would have been in Aragorn's
mind. Certainly the situation wasn't the same, though; it's much more
difficult to seize and carry off two living hobbits who may be
murdered by their captors at the first sign of rescue.
Let's see. On the plus side:
1. Aragorn had Anduril, and also the hobbits' swords; Legolas had his
bow/quiver and knife, and Gimli his broad-bladed axe. All three had
elven cloaks. Gimli had a mail shirt.
2. Legolas likely had some knowledge of how to "speak with feigned
voices" as Haldir's companions had done the night the Orcs pursued the
Fellowship at the fringes of Lorien, as well as of the sorts of tricks
the dwarves and Bilbo experienced during their encounters with
Thranduil's people in Mirkwood; and perhaps Aragorn had picked up
something of the same sort during his Elvish education. As long as
the Orcs didn't realize how few the pursuers were, they could have
used these abilities to confuse the Orcs in several ways, all of which
could have been manipulated to the Hunters' benefit.
3. In addition, Aragorn was the chieftain of the Dunedain and the
ultimate Ranger, as well as very familiar with the land and its people
and ways because of his service there as Thorongil.
4. They knew that at least Pippin was alive and had his wits about
him, though they didn't know, of course, that he also had his hands
free.
The negative can be summed up in Legolas' words:
There will be no escape again, if we do not contrive it. How
that is to be done cannot be guessed, but first we must
overtake them.
Where would they have overtaken the Orcs? (And remember that Saruman
was on his way from Isengard to the forest edge to meet the Orcs.)
Barb
Belba Grubb from Stock
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Taemon <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
>> Henriette wrote:
>>> Taemon <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
>
>[about Pippin acting on impulse]
>
>>>> "He acts on impulse" means the same thing.
>>> It means this intuitive flash is stronger than his fear.
>>> He acts in spite of the severe consequences it may have.
>>
>> I don't agree. Acting on impulse means _not_ taking consequences
>> into account.
>
>The quotes from the book seem contradictory:
>
>"Every now and again there came into his mind unbidden a vision of
>[Strider examining the trail but having difficulty]."
>
>"A sudden thought leaped into Pippin's mind, and he acted on it at once.
>He swerved aside to the right, and dived... [leaves marks and drops
>brooch]."
>
>"I [Pippin] don't know why I did it. If the others have escaped, they've
>probably all gone with Frodo."
>
>This does sound impulsive, but it also seems like some other power is
>directing things to happen and giving some sort of visions.
>
>Are there any other impulsive or 'guided' events we can compare this to
>in the book? I can only think of Frodo's premonition to get off the road
>in the Shire when the Black Rider appears, Frodo's decision to accept
>the Ring in Rivendell, Pippin's decision to take service with Denethor,
>Sam's decision to go back to Frodo's body after leaving it.
>
>Impulse or divine guidance?
How about a third option: Pippin's living up to the ideal he had set
for himself in Bree, when he was "...trying to show [Strider] that he
was tougher than he looked (or felt)" and then out in the Wild near
the three stone trolls, when "Pippin, not liking to show Strider that
he was still afraid went on ahead with Merry." Here, in truly dire
straits now, he has a mental image of Strider tracking them and so he
does something no hobbit could be expected to do, and succeeds rather
well at it.
Barb
Belba Grubb from Stock
<tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <28vnf0t664rgn8t3t...@4ax.com>,
>ba...@dbtech.net says...
>>
>> Has "Ugluk u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob bubhosh skai" ever been
>> translated?
>
>Your choice, two of JRRT's translations have been published:
>"Uglúk to the cesspool, sha! the dungfilth; the great Saruman-fool,
>skai!"
>PoME
>"Uglúk to the dung-pit with stinking Saruman-filth, pig-guts, gah!"
>Vinyar Tengwar
Thanks! (I think - it's not exactly uplifting stuff)
:-)
Belba Grubb from Stock
<dnivej...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>"Belba Grubb from Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> skrev i meddelandet
>news:28vnf0t664rgn8t3t...@4ax.com...
>
>[snip]
>
>> Given the note in Appendix F that the big Uruk-Hai came from both
>> Mordor and Isengard, my impression is that the "fighting Uruk-Hai"
>> name the Isengarders give themselves is a slap at the Uruk-Hai of
>> Mordor, implying that they're wimps and slackers. Of course, Ugluk is
>> more direct, too, calling them "swine" and saying they "no guts
>> outside your own sties."
>
>When Uglúk said that he was addressing the Orcs who had come south from
>Moria to exact revenge for all their mates killed by the Fellowship.
Yes, that's true. Grishnakh had inserted himself into the
conversation, and that confused me; I wonder where the rest of the
Mordor orcs were at that point. Yet the two Uruk-Hai were seen
standing among the northern Orcs, and that's who they both were
addressing. Perhaps they were "campaigning" to win the northerners'
support, in which case the former statement, at least, that "fighting
Uruk-Hai" was a slap at the Uruk-Hai of Mordor, still stands.
Barb
ste...@nomail.com
: On 20 Jul 2004 04:10:02 -0700, arav...@hotmail.com (Aravorn82)
: wrote:
:>Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message news:<h1snf0d7knu2dllo2...@4ax.com>...
:>
:>>
:>> Also, as far as the Three Hunters knew, they would have to deal with
:>> the entire Orc band to rescue the hobbits, once they caught up with
:>> them -- knowing that at least one of the hobbits was alive and able
:>> to use his wits, at least at that earlier stage of the chase, gave
:>> them the option of somehow working in collusion with at least one of
:>> the captives, when they finally caught up with the band: more
:>> strategies.
:>>
:>
:>This brings up something that I intially wondered about the first time
:>I read the book. How, exactly, did Aragorn, Legolas and Gimili even
:>hope to defeat the entire orc band? It seems that there are at least a
:>hundered orcs.
: They had not just the orcs to contend with, but also Saruman, as they
: soon realized. Their best chance, such as it was, would be to get the
: hobbits free as soon as possible, because Saruman's influence would
: increase the closer the band got to Fangorn and then to Isengard.
I just realized that there is no mention of Saruman's influence
affecting Eomer and his men. I suppose it is possible that Saruman was
specifically 'targetting' Aragon and friends, but that seems like
it would require more knowledge of the exact details of what was
happening than he seemed to have.
Stephen
John Jones
news:Xns952F6D61843D7...@130.133.1.4...
> > end of which all but one of his friends had been killed. There
> > were whole districts in which all the young men were lost.
>
> Weren't the Pals Battalions discontinued after the Somme, when some
> towns barely saw any action whilst others were wiped out?
>
By that time, conscription had been (belatedly) introduced into mainland
Britain. It had been recognised, though, that as you say, the Pal's
Battalions had been a disastrous mistake.
John Jones
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:2mhcnoF...@uni-berlin.de:
> TeaLady (Mari C.) wrote:
>
>> That might have been "meant" as well -
>
> It is hard to ask questions about Lord of the Rings when "it
> is meant" is always lurking on the background.
snipt
"Meant" as in Providence, which is always lurking, and not always
blatant.
Taemon
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
> news:2md5fdF...@uni-berlin.de...
> > John Jones wrote:
> > > Tolkien knew all about this - he served in the Great
> > > War, at the end of which all but one of his friends
> > > had been killed.
> > But those weren't orcs. Somehow, that does seem to make
> > it worse.
> Even orcs must have had some feelings?
One should think so. They were alive and intelligent. Hence, they
could suffer.
T.
Taemon
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote in
> news:2mhcnoF...@uni-berlin.de:
> > It is hard to ask questions about Lord of the Rings
> > when "it is meant" is always lurking on the background.
> snipt
> "Meant" as in Providence, which is always lurking, and
> not always blatant.
I know. But it doesn't change anything. I feel it as a
discussion-stopper, like "God's ways are mysterious".
T.
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
> >> Given the note in Appendix F that the big Uruk-Hai came from both
> >> Mordor and Isengard, my impression is that the "fighting Uruk-Hai"
> >> name the Isengarders give themselves is a slap at the Uruk-Hai of
> >> Mordor, implying that they're wimps and slackers. Of course, Ugluk >
>> is more direct, too, calling them "swine" and saying they "no guts
> >> outside your own sties."
> >
> >When Uglúk said that he was addressing the Orcs who had come south from
> >Moria to exact revenge for all their mates killed by the Fellowship.
>
> Yes, that's true. Grishnakh had inserted himself into the
> conversation, and that confused me; I wonder where the rest of the
> Mordor orcs were at that point. Yet the two Uruk-Hai were seen
> standing among the northern Orcs, and that's who they both were
> addressing. Perhaps they were "campaigning" to win the northerners'
> support, in which case the former statement, at least, that "fighting
> Uruk-Hai" was a slap at the Uruk-Hai of Mordor, still stands.
Hm. I always thought the Orcs from Mordor were not Uruk-hai but more the
common kind of Orcs. Some spare troops Sauron sent off with Grishnákh.
Öjevind
aelfwina
Actually, I find that statement a discusssion-*starter*, as it opens the way
to all sorts of speculation as to just how mysterious, and as to whether
certain events were coincidence or providence or both. Similar to many
discussions we have here. But not everyone likes a long theological debate.
Barbara
>
> T.
>
>
Taemon
<"meant">
> Actually, I find that statement a discusssion-*starter*,
> as it opens the way to all sorts of speculation as to
> just how mysterious, and as to whether certain events
> were coincidence or providence or both. Similar to many
> discussions we have here. But not everyone likes a long
> theological debate.
Oh, I do, I do! But one with arguments! ;-) Seriously, I can see
your position. I'd say we just disagree.
T.
Jim Deutch
We certainly have evidence that they could *complain*. Cf Shagrat and
Gorbag.
Jim Deutch
--
>I recently read somewhere that it's a good idea
>to eat your own nose pickings.
I chew snot to believe this. - Emory Kimbrough
Christopher Kreuzer
> For example, his description of the Last Alliance: "All
> living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even
> of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only."
> Unless JRRT was telling us that Gil- Galad had a secret orcish
> battalion, he left out the orcs when talking about 'living things'.
Unless by thinking of orcs as corrupted Elves, you come to the
conclusion (contradicting the narrator) that even Elves/Orcs were to be
found on each side of that battle. Actually, the phrase: "all living
things were divided in that day" sound very biblical, almost like the
description of Noah's Ark and the Deluge.
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Belba Grubb from Stock
If Grishnakh was important enough to be ferried across the River by a
Nazgul, likely he was too important to be given snagas, but rather
commanded soldier-orcs, or Uruk-Hai. This would especially be the
case if they were penetrating enemy lands -- Sauron didn't
underestimate the military power of the Rohirrim.
Too, while Grishnakh is described as a short creature, Pippin sees him
and Ugluk surrounded by smaller Orcs which the hobbit assumes are the
northern orcs. This would imply that the rest of the Orcs in the band
were large ones, or Uruk-Hai.
Barb
Belba Grubb from Stock
<space-saving snip>
>: They had not just the orcs to contend with, but also Saruman, as they
>: soon realized. Their best chance, such as it was, would be to get the
>: hobbits free as soon as possible, because Saruman's influence would
>: increase the closer the band got to Fangorn and then to Isengard.
>
>I just realized that there is no mention of Saruman's influence
>affecting Eomer and his men. I suppose it is possible that Saruman was
>specifically 'targetting' Aragon and friends, but that seems like
>it would require more knowledge of the exact details of what was
>happening than he seemed to have.
That is a very good point. Story externally, the apparent immunity of
the men of Rohan to Saruman's spell on the Orcs could be said to work
in well with the whole idea of the upcoming age of Man's domination.
Internally, maybe it had something to do with their being residents of
the land and so having more of a "right" to be there than either the
Orcs or the Three Hunters, one that Saruman's spells couldn't shake.
Hmmm, let's see...here's also some wild speculation:
Legolas sensed Saruman's influence first when the Three Hunters came
down from the Wall of Rohan on the track of the Orc band. Maybe
Saruman's "watching over" the Orcs and speeding them on their way also
included surveillance of their whole track, so that pursuers might be
detected and delayed? If so, then Eomer and his men could have come
in "under the radar," so to speak because they began their pursuit
from another direction and didn't pick up the Orc trail until it had
already turned more toward the north.
Too, Saruman was occupied with the ongoing battle at Isengard and had
reason to believe that all Theoden's forces were either there or
guarding Edoras. Grima didn't know what Eomer was doing, and so
neither did Saruman, so he didn't use whatever "Rider of Rohan" spells
he may have had available.
Barb