Cuivenen
dusty...@aol.com
I believe Cuivenen is presently located near the Sea of Rhun. PLease
refer to the SHAPING OF THE MIDDLE EARTH. The maps put Cuivene in the Sea
of Helcar. It iis plausible in the destruction (marring of Arda) That
this place was moved. I don't know. THe Sea of Helcar may have a
remnant, what is it?? THere are three large lakes in Eriador,are they one
of them?? if so them the site that was Cuivenen would be located near one
of them.
Jennie Matthews
dusty...@aol.com wrote:
&I believe Cuivenen is presently located near the Sea of Rhun. PLease
&refer to the SHAPING OF THE MIDDLE EARTH. The maps put Cuivene in the
&Sea of Helcar. It iis plausible in the destruction (marring of Arda)
&That this place was moved. I don't know. THe Sea of Helcar may have
&a remnant, what is it?? THere are three large lakes in Eriador,are they
&one of them?? if so them the site that was Cuivenen would be located
&near one of them.
There couldn't really be any remnant of the Sea of Helcar in Eriador, as
Cuivienen(sp?) was located East of the Misty Mountains and the Anduin.
Pat
--
Patrick G. Matthews
"Listening to Offspring while driving automatically increases your speed
by 10 miles per hour without even touching the accelerator."
- Rick Grimes, 5/95
David Salo
In article <57ulda$8...@netnews.upenn.edu>, jen...@mail.med.upenn.edu
(Jennie Matthews) wrote:
> There couldn't really be any remnant of the Sea of Helcar in Eriador, as
> Cuivienen(sp?) was located East of the Misty Mountains and the Anduin.
The Sea of Rhun is really extremely small, just a largish lake; maybe a
little larger than Lake Ladoga in Russia. Cuivienen was an immense inland
sea. Judging by the Ambarkanta maps, it was big enough to cover both the
Caspian and Aral Seas, and possibly the Black Sea as well.
David Salo
Michael Martinez
I think Mr. Salo may have intended to say, "Helcar was an immense inland sea",
but I'm not sure since "Cuivienen" means something like "Waters of Awakening"
and I don't have my books here to look at the maps he refers to.
The Elves awoke close to a small bay of Helcar, sheltered by the Orocarni.
Cuivienen was that bay. We know from the legend of the first elves that
Tolkien envisioned birch and fir woods set in hills beside a stream that had a
waterfall as the region where the Elves awoke, so Cuivienen must have been fed
by that stream.
At any rate, in a couple of places Tolkien writes "But there is no returning
to Cuivienen" and/or "But Cuivienen is no more." In the tumults of the world
the sea of Helcar ceased to exist and the lands were altered.
++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?"
||\ /|| --fbag...@mid.earth.com
|| v ||ichael Martinez (mma...@basis.com)
++ ++------------------------------------------------------
dusty...@aol.com
Why would Cuivenen or the Sea of Helcar not exists when the Blue
Mountains still exists as well as remnant of th Iron Mountains??? Why are
my hypoteses so implausible??
Fingolfin
It seems from the maps of Fonstad that the western part of Helcar was
roughly in the western part of Mordor. After the War of Wrath the
Great Gulf (the sea to the south of Gondor) was created so the sea came close
to the shore of Helcar. It is plausible that Helcar was drained into
Anduin before the western mountains of Mordor were created.
BTW Mordor is _very_ conveniently closed in by a fence of mountains. Maybe
Sauron had still some mountain-building ability when he first settled there.
Remember the Valar created the greatest mountainrange in Arda (the Pelori)
and Morgoth created the Iron Mountains.
Fingolfin
soli...@gamewood.net
>Why would Cuivenen or the Sea of Helcar not exists when the Blue
>Mountains still exists as well as remnant of th Iron Mountains??? Why are
>my hypoteses so implausible??
Because Helcar and Cuivienin were last seen about 15,000 years before the
destruction of Thangorodrim.
Lalaith
dusty...@aol.com wrote:
>Why would Cuivenen or the Sea of Helcar not exists when the Blue
>Mountains still exists as well as remnant of th Iron Mountains??? Why are
>my hypoteses so implausible??
"To Cuivienen there is no return", so it is said. The Sea of Helcar
ceased to exist long ago, though there are hints that the Sea of Rhun
may be its remains. Finally, the Blue Mountains, which existed already
in the First Age, have never been a part of the Iron Mountains and
therefore cannot be their remnants.
- Lalaith
----------------------------------------------------------------
"American English consists of five words: 1. OK, 2. Dollar,
3. Dollar, 4. Dollar, 5. Dollar."
(from a German travel guide)
Fingolfin
Also the Sea of Nurnen could have been a remnant of Helcar
(see the world map on pages 4 and 5 of Fonstads atlas).
I think dustyrealm meant the Grey Mountains and the Mountains of
Angmar as remnant of the Iron Mountains.
Fingolfin
Lalaith
Fingolfin <etm...@etm.ericsson.se> wrote:
>Also the Sea of Nurnen could have been a remnant of Helcar
>(see the world map on pages 4 and 5 of Fonstads atlas).
The map in Fonstad's atlas may be discarded due to HoME XII where it
says that Mordor existed already in the First Age and probably
received its name due to the volcanism there (as yet unrelated to
Sauron's machinations, though invoked by Morgoth).