Where are the rapes in Sil?
Mallron
why is it so low in rape statistics? I mean... any recent war you might
recall... if it went as far as plundering it also included sexual
exploitation of those who lost ... nothing of this sort in Silmarillion ...
the Orcs enjoyed killing and destroying but were bit impotent on the rape
front... sexual frustration/weakness of the author?
M
Tamim
There were few women in the books and the orcs weren't homosexual.
Mallron
This is presumptious... but anyway... there are plenty of women mentioned
though not named - e.g. the Rhoan women left at Dunharrow... plenty of rape
chances :)
M
Mhw61
As I recall, orcs don't like coming in contact with most things elvish. Maybe
that includes women.
Or maybe my old theory from my days of running D&D campaigns is true. I, too,
had noticed the lack of interest in sexual mayhem and decided it was because
the male orcs were so thoroughly whipped. (That's why they had all that
displaced anger--like many bullies, they were simply insecure in their
maleness).
In my campaigns, Orc wives had two hit dice to the standard one. Armed with
rolling pins or skillets and protected by their heavy leather aprons, more than
one party of adventurers was put to flight by a coffee klatsch of orc wives. I
can only imagine what would happen to a poor Shagrat if he came home with
lipstick on his armor or his cloak reeking of elvish perfume.
There. Two theories for the price of one.
Max
"I've never made predictions and I never will."
--Paul Gascoigne
Antonio Gonzalez
"Mallron" <ban...@free.polbox.pl> escribió en el mensaje
news:a21lg3$c9s$1...@news2.ipartners.pl...
If you add to that that there is a case of incest in the Silmarillion,
the psichological study can become more interesting...
Antonio
Dosey69
the prisoners, so I wouldn't rule out homosexual torture, at least.
kuei...@-remove-hotmail.com
Using Rape in the older term, weren't some women (or at least one)
abducted against her will? (Dark Elf?)
remove "-remove-" from address to make valid
Zark
"Dosey69" <dos...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020115130145...@mb-md.aol.com...
> Well, at the end of TT, Gorbag and his bud are talking about "having fun"
with
> the prisoners, so I wouldn't rule out homosexual torture, at least.
Hmmm - LOTR crossed with Midnight Express.
Doesn't bear thinking about..............
Zark
Marc Sylvestre
"Tamim" <hall...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a21nq3$m8g$2...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
I think that if a bunch of orcs found some nice looking elvish or human
women, they'd be more likely to eat them than to rape them.
Anywho, lots of men in America's prisons rape other men without being gay.
It'd be no surprise if orcs raped smaller orcs if the need drove them.
Of course you never hear mention of orcs being interested in females, human,
elvish, or orcish.
Kieran Sanders
news:a21lg3$c9s$1...@news2.ipartners.pl...
I seem to recall that there is a mention of this in one of the later HoME
volumes (refering more specifically to why there was no rape among Elves - I
believe its in the essay about Marriage customs amon the Eldar), where
Tolkien stated that since Elves could choose to "die" if in extreme
distress, they would probably have done this if the situation had arisen.
~ Kieran Sanders
Morgil Blackhope
Dosey69 kirjoitti viestissä <20020115130145...@mb-md.aol.com>...
>Well, at the end of TT, Gorbag and his bud are talking about "having fun"
with
>the prisoners, so I wouldn't rule out homosexual torture, at least.
Why not? Orcs enjoy to torture. Period.
Morgil
Stefan Bruhn
<More...@Hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Well, at the end of TT, Gorbag and his bud are talking about "having fun"
>with
>>the prisoners, so I wouldn't rule out homosexual torture, at least.
>
>Why not? Orcs enjoy to torture. Period.
He said he *wouldn't* rule it out.
--
Mvh. Stefan
Website: http://www.3x7.dk/ | http://ghashul.dk/
"I demand the right to keep and arm bears"
"A computer without Windows, is like a fish without a bicycle"
Morgil Blackhope
Mallron kirjoitti viestissä ...
Assuming you're not just trolling, there could be a mention
in the Silm of how the Eaasterlings who joined Morgoth
were allowed to spoil or deprave the women of Hador.
Morgil
Michael Krakower
"Kieran Sanders" <kie...@doomstone.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a21uvv$len$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
how Elladan and Elrohir "rode often far afield with the Rangers of the
North, forgetting never their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs"(FOTR
Pg 239).
Elrond's wife, Celebrian, daughter of Celeborn and Galadriel, was captured
by orcs in the passes of the mountains in T.A 2059 while on a journey to
Lorien. She received a poisoned wound and was "tortured" before being
rescued by her sons. She was evidently so emotionally traumatized by the
experience that, although healed in body by Elrond, she sought the Haven's
soon after(appendix "A").
One can only conjecture as to the form of torture orcs would administer to a
female captive (especially the beloved wife/daughter of Sauron's most
ancient and despised foes) at their leisure, and in the comfort of their own
dens.
Russ
pissed and scorched him but was so traumatized she returned to Eru - and was
apparently allowed to do so against the usual rules for Ainu who entered Ea
remaining in Ea until the end.
Russ
Aris Katsaris
> why is it so low in rape statistics?
Some of Turin's comrades (Androg and Forweg) tried to rape a woman -
Turin killed Forweg and saved her.
Aris Katsaris
Zark
;-)
Zark
Michaelus
being toyed with in our own world. They have no sex - right?
MS
"Marc Sylvestre" <msylv...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:a21uup$unp$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net...
paulh
wrote:
>Although there is a fair bit of plundering and murdering in Silmarillion...
>why is it so low in rape statistics?
conservative. Whacking in some random rape scenes would have been out
of context of what he was writing about, his views on 'such matters'
and the general tone of the books. No doubt people discussing this in
50 years will wonder why he is so hetero-anthro-centric and refused to
acknowlege perfectly natural bestiality and homosexual relationships.
There are no rapes (I can recall) in Sherlock Holmes or many other
'older' books..
> I mean... any recent war you might
>recall... if it went as far as plundering it also included sexual
>exploitation of those who lost ... nothing of this sort in Silmarillion ...
>the Orcs enjoyed killing and destroying but were bit impotent on the rape
>front...
Tolkien had fought in a war zone probably low on sexual exploitation.
Secondly he was a writer of 'high' fantasy, unlike the earthy realism
of George RR Martin.
>sexual frustration/weakness of the author?
Fer fucks sake... so if someone from the Victorian Era write a book on
mythology he's gotta put in rape scenes to prove he's a man?
Your question says more about you than Tolkien..
paulh
Michael P. Reed
> Fer fucks sake... so if someone from the Victorian Era write a book on
> mythology he's gotta put in rape scenes to prove he's a man?
Nit. I would say he was an "Eduardian" and not "Victorian." Otherwise, I
agree. One does not find "sex" in novels of that era, and even D.H. Lawrence
is quite tame by today's standards (most "romance novels" having far more sex).
Even Nabogatov's (sp?) works were quite mild (and IMHO, boring). Moreover,
when it comes right down to it, Tolkien's works were more child oriented than
adult (no matter how much many would argue otherwise).
--
Regards,
Michael P. Reed
Mallron
rape coz they're above it), lets ignore Orcs (they don't rape coz they're
below it - i.e. would much a prisoner isntead of raping her/him) but what
about humans? The Easterlings, the wild people, and even the three noble
trades... they never seem to be driven by their sexuality... kill enemy -
good, stand for your friends - good, die - good.... sex - NO... nothing of
it... perhaps with the exception of the incest mentioned before by someone
(Turin Turambar and his sister that is).
The questions is - WHY? I've read different fantasy authors, that also write
about Eleves, Men, and Dwarves (+ some other minor races), and almost always
there is a baddy that grabs hold of smith's daughter, or depraves underage
niece/nephew (depending on personal preference) of some baron.
WHY WHY WHY is Silmarillion so tame on this front?
M
Mallron
"Aris Katsaris" <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote in message
news:a22797$5b7$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
story? Or mentioned elswhere by chance?
M
Mallron
> > mythology he's gotta put in rape scenes to prove he's a man?
>
> Nit. I would say he was an "Eduardian" and not "Victorian." Otherwise, I
> agree. One does not find "sex" in novels of that era, and even D.H.
Lawrence
> is quite tame by today's standards (most "romance novels" having far more
sex).
> Even Nabogatov's (sp?) works were quite mild (and IMHO, boring).
Moreover,
> when it comes right down to it, Tolkien's works were more child oriented
than
> adult (no matter how much many would argue otherwise).
>
The manner of the time the books were created could have something to do
but.... Tolkien died in what 1972? Silmarillion was published in 1975 first
time? I mean... this is hardly Eduardian/Victorian or such like... it's more
Elisabethian is anything, geez... The book was constantly changing, so the
manner of speach and the general attitude would have evolved to keep in
touch with everything else. So I guess there was plenty of time between 1937
and 1972 (or even '75 if Chris could have something to here) resolve this
matter.
Now the argument about JRRT being so relgious that he couldn't put in rape
is self-defeating. If this was true he wouldn't be able to:
- immitate the biblical story with Sil
- put so much deception and death into it
- add occasional incest
The argument that Sil was for children (note I didn't even mention LoTR) and
thus no rape is perhaps as self-defeating as the one above if we take the
last two bullets into account.
I would tend to think that JRRT was brought up in a way that was not working
well with the idea of rape and explicit sexuality - hence nothing of this in
the books. It would have to be very solid upbringing though if it did not
dilute over the "free love" years of the 60' and the explicity of
Vietnam/Korea war... not even mentioning WWII.
M
Flame of the West
> WHY WHY WHY is Silmarillion so tame on this front?
You are one sad sicko.
--
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
Aris Katsaris
>
> "Aris Katsaris" <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote in message
> news:a22797$5b7$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> >
> > Turin killed Forweg and saved her.
> >
Unfinished Tales.
Aris Katsaris
Mallron
>
> > WHY WHY WHY is Silmarillion so tame on this front?
>
> You are one sad sicko.
>
M
Tamim
> Umm - orcs are spawned - created via asexual methods not unlilke thoses
> being toyed with in our own world. They have no sex - right?
snip
Wrong
BRIAMUTH
Silmarillion, LOTR- f'rinstance, Elrond's wife was captured and "tormented" by
the orcs, later dying of it, and her two sons spent much of their time hunting
down and killing every orc they could find.
BRIAMUTH
>Fer fucks sake... so if someone from the Victorian Era write a book on
>mythology he's gotta put in rape scenes to prove he's a man?
>
>Your question says more about you than Tolkien..
>
>paulh
>
the annoying trolling done of this subject by mall, as well as his obsession
with rape, is exceeded only by Mall's stubborn ignorance of the literary mores'
of the time these novels were written in, and the man who wrote them.
paulh
<mpr...@chartermi.net> wrote:
>In message <81c84u8pi0kmji592...@4ax.com>, paulh wrote:
>
>> Fer fucks sake... so if someone from the Victorian Era write a book on
>> mythology he's gotta put in rape scenes to prove he's a man?
>
>Nit. I would say he was an "Eduardian" and not "Victorian."
Well he was BORN in the Victorian Era... so I'm not sure when you
cross that line.. but I know what you mean.
> Otherwise, I
>agree. One does not find "sex" in novels of that era, and even D.H. Lawrence
>is quite tame by today's standards (most "romance novels" having far more sex).
> Even Nabogatov's (sp?) works were quite mild (and IMHO, boring). Moreover,
>when it comes right down to it, Tolkien's works were more child oriented than
>adult (no matter how much many would argue otherwise).
True.. and LOTR was intended to be a Hobbit Sequel.. hence the no-sex
thingo. But the Sil is a wee bit spicier due to its more adult
direction.
paulh
paulh
wrote:
>> > Fer fucks sake... so if someone from the Victorian Era write a book on
>> > mythology he's gotta put in rape scenes to prove he's a man?
>>
>> Nit. I would say he was an "Eduardian" and not "Victorian." Otherwise, I
>> agree. One does not find "sex" in novels of that era, and even D.H.
>Lawrence
>> is quite tame by today's standards (most "romance novels" having far more
>sex).
>> Even Nabogatov's (sp?) works were quite mild (and IMHO, boring).
>Moreover,
>> when it comes right down to it, Tolkien's works were more child oriented
>than
>> adult (no matter how much many would argue otherwise).
>>
>
>The manner of the time the books were created could have something to do
>but.... Tolkien died in what 1972? Silmarillion was published in 1975 first
>time? I mean... this is hardly Eduardian/Victorian or such like... it's more
>Elisabethian is anything, geez... The book was constantly changing, so the
>manner of speach and the general attitude would have evolved to keep in
>touch with everything else. So I guess there was plenty of time between 1937
>and 1972 (or even '75 if Chris could have something to here) resolve this
>matter.
days. He was raised as a devout catholic, by a priest, in a
conservative world and was a conservative man. Dying in 1972 doesn't
mean he suddenly embraced Drugs, Free Love and drove around Oxford ina
FlowerPower Combi in his last few years. He fought in WW1 and was
adult already at the outbreak. Your values are usually dictated to you
as you are now. When you die in 2070 and total nudity and casual sex
with passers by in public view is common practice, I doubt you'lbe
quite so keen on embracing 'modern' morality..
>Now the argument about JRRT being so relgious that he couldn't put in rape
>is self-defeating.
Not so... it means he didn't dwell on it or think it an important
enough issue.
> If this was true he wouldn't be able to:
>- immitate the biblical story with Sil
Huh?
>- put so much deception and death into it
>- add occasional incest
But his catholocism didnt mean he had to write a lovely fluffy story
with kittins in it. It just meant he found some things less important
as modern viewers seem to think.. like Rape in wartime.
He didn't mention much crime within communities either, cos it either
didnt happen or didn't matter.
And the incest is cos he 'stole' that directly from mythology..
remember, it wasn't Knowing Incest.. it was accidental.
>The argument that Sil was for children (note I didn't even mention LoTR) and
>thus no rape is perhaps as self-defeating as the one above if we take the
>last two bullets into account.
Except the Sil was never meant for children
>I would tend to think that JRRT was brought up in a way that was not working
>well with the idea of rape and explicit sexuality - hence nothing of this in
>the books. It would have to be very solid upbringing though if it did not
>dilute over the "free love" years of the 60' and the explicity of
>Vietnam/Korea war... not even mentioning WWII.
Funnily enough being in his mid to late 70s in the 60s kinda limited
his interest in adopting contemporary youth morality as his own. But I
agree with the rest...
paulh
Mallron
> > If this was true he wouldn't be able to:
> >- immitate the biblical story with Sil
> Huh?
Think of it... the Iluvatar as creator, Ainur as high angels, ... etc. etc.
Feanor is trying to be smarter than Valar and thus him (and Noldor) leaving
Amman is like being banned from paradise, then a few occasional floods
changing the shape of the world and affecting the living beings beyond
anything else (remember Noah?) etc. etc. etc.
When I read Silmarillion and finished it... as reflexion as to how much this
resembles the story from The Bible came suddenly...
>
> >The argument that Sil was for children (note I didn't even mention LoTR)
and
> >thus no rape is perhaps as self-defeating as the one above if we take the
> >last two bullets into account.
> Except the Sil was never meant for children
That's what I said... though Michael's mail... the one directly under yours
that is above my previous post...erm... if it makes sense... that mail said
JRRT works were for children hence no rape
M
paulh
wrote:
>>
>> > If this was true he wouldn't be able to:
>> >- immitate the biblical story with Sil
>> Huh?
>
>Think of it... the Iluvatar as creator, Ainur as high angels, ... etc. etc.
>Feanor is trying to be smarter than Valar and thus him (and Noldor) leaving
>Amman is like being banned from paradise, then a few occasional floods
>changing the shape of the world and affecting the living beings beyond
>anything else (remember Noah?) etc. etc. etc.
>
>When I read Silmarillion and finished it... as reflexion as to how much this
>resembles the story from The Bible came suddenly...
Well he imitates it... but it has significant differences too, with
angels being remote from God and actively being involved in the
Earth.. to start with But overall I feel he retrofitted the Genesis
element to explain the rest. Once that was out of the way it was time
for some serious Elvishness!
>> >The argument that Sil was for children (note I didn't even mention LoTR)
>and
>> >thus no rape is perhaps as self-defeating as the one above if we take the
>> >last two bullets into account.
>> Except the Sil was never meant for children
>
>That's what I said... though Michael's mail... the one directly under yours
>that is above my previous post...erm... if it makes sense...
hehe... I'll trust ya..too many threads.. too many threads
>that mail said
>JRRT works were for children hence no rape
ah... well... that is so. But don't you think that Tolkien just didn't
like to introduce such elements into his storys. I think he felt too
much sex in a story was bad for even an adult audience (and he may be
right) Have you read George RR Martins Fantasy Series. It goes the
other way, with full on swearing, underage sex, incest all over the
place. death, torture and the entire cast being slaughtered one by
one. In some ways the opposite of JRRT... but in others perhaps not..
paulh
Mallron
> other way, with full on swearing, underage sex, incest all over the
> place. death, torture and the entire cast being slaughtered one by
> one. In some ways the opposite of JRRT... but in others perhaps not..
>
Sapkowski though... and that was much more down to Earth (even though with
Elves etc.) with it's depiction of human beings... I mean - I don' t know
the stats... but which is the more "common" crime - rape? or murder?
M
paulh
wrote:
that may depend on things like local morals, punishments, social
elements etc... don't really know..
Never heard of Sapkowski tho..
paulh
Mallron
> that may depend on things like local morals, punishments, social
> elements etc... don't really know..
> Never heard of Sapkowski tho..
>
> paulh
I dont think this is surprising... he was never tranlated to English (I
think)... though he might be at some stage... hugely popular in Poland
Celaeno
>Umm - orcs are spawned - created via asexual methods not unlilke thoses
>being toyed with in our own world. They have no sex - right?
>
>MS
Morgoth couldn't create anything original and had to go with someone
else's work as building blocks. As it happens, those building blocks
were two-sexed elves (and humans added to Sauron's and Saruman'swork).
They might be pioneers when it comes to test tube babies and genetical
engineering, but their orcs still had to have two genders.
Cel
paulh
wrote:
My Polish is a bit weak....!
paulh
The Rowe Family
wrote on 1/15/02 11:29 AM:
> Although there is a fair bit of plundering and murdering in Silmarillion...
> why is it so low in rape statistics? I mean... any recent war you might
> recall... if it went as far as plundering it also included sexual
> exploitation of those who lost ... nothing of this sort in Silmarillion ...
> the Orcs enjoyed killing and destroying but were bit impotent on the rape
> front... sexual frustration/weakness of the author?
>
> M
>
>
Wow, I never realized that! He also never described Frodo taking that huge
dump after Bilbo's birthday party, either. How unrealistic. Tsk tsk.
Perhaps Tolkien realized that graphic descriptions of sexuality would be
considered rude and offensive by many readers, or at best a distraction from
the major, important themes of the books. Most adults are well aware of
biologic functions, and common social and physical interactions between
people. He was content to leave pulp to the pulp industry.
Russ
<reyca...@yahoo.com> writes:
>Umm - orcs are spawned - created via asexual methods not unlilke thoses
>being toyed with in our own world. They have no sex - right?
Saruman was able to breed orcs with men.
Russ
Russ
<pa...@fahncahn.com> writes:
>>sexual frustration/weakness of the author?
>Fer fucks sake... so if someone from the Victorian Era write a book on
>mythology he's gotta put in rape scenes to prove he's a man?
>
>Your question says more about you than Tolkien..
Finally. Someone who speaks the truth.
Russ
Flame of the West
> when it comes right down to it, Tolkien's works were more child oriented than
> adult (no matter how much many would argue otherwise).
No, that's false, no matter how many would argue otherwise.
You really fail to understand both LotR and the Silmarillion
if you think they're for kids just because there's no
explicit rape scenes.
Flame of the West
> the Orcs enjoyed killing and destroying but were bit impotent on the rape
> front... sexual frustration/weakness of the author?
Most real men don't equate rape with "potency". The
only men who have to rape are the ones who aren't
man enough to attract a mate. Tolkien was too much
the real man to be fixated on rape, as you seem to be.
Flame of the West
You are obsessed with rape. It's eating you up that
you aren't getting your rape fantasies reinforced via
the Silmarillion.
Mallron
> > > > WHY WHY WHY is Silmarillion so tame on this front?
> > >
> > > You are one sad sicko.
> > >
> > Please elaborate.
>
> You are obsessed with rape. It's eating you up that
> you aren't getting your rape fantasies reinforced via
> the Silmarillion.
>
rate doctor...?
Mallron
> >
> Wow, I never realized that! He also never described Frodo taking that
huge
> dump after Bilbo's birthday party, either. How unrealistic. Tsk tsk.
>
> Perhaps Tolkien realized that graphic descriptions of sexuality would be
> considered rude and offensive by many readers, or at best a distraction
from
> the major, important themes of the books. Most adults are well aware of
> biologic functions, and common social and physical interactions between
> people. He was content to leave pulp to the pulp industry.
>
wars (or was it 6 wars) in Sil if the differences were one army was on a
hill, the other one elsewhere and than change over... self-defeating (I am
not buying it)... nothing to do with "I am not saying the obvious"... I
feel... the other thread mentioned upbringing ifluence - that I can buy, but
dropping it as a conscious effort to eliminate anything that is down to the
real world... nah... try again please...
M
Mallron
> > the Orcs enjoyed killing and destroying but were bit impotent on the
rape
> > front... sexual frustration/weakness of the author?
>
> Most real men don't equate rape with "potency". The
> only men who have to rape are the ones who aren't
> man enough to attract a mate. Tolkien was too much
> the real man to be fixated on rape, as you seem to be.
>
"Where is Sex in Silmarillion"... but then I thought of other books and the
real world where war and sexual exploitation (rape et. al) go hand in
hand... so the question changed though some the content might have not
matched the question quite as well... in either case: SEX is missing in
SIL - WHY?
SEX accounts for a fair bit of human history (as we know it) and for a fair
bit of bad things that happend.... why nothing of this in Sil?
M
paulh
wrote:
>> Most real men don't equate rape with "potency". The
>> only men who have to rape are the ones who aren't
>> man enough to attract a mate. Tolkien was too much
>> the real man to be fixated on rape, as you seem to be.
>>
>Perhaps I worded the subject a little bit awkward... perhaps it should say:
>"Where is Sex in Silmarillion"... but then I thought of other books and the
>real world where war and sexual exploitation (rape et. al) go hand in
>hand... so the question changed though some the content might have not
>matched the question quite as well... in either case: SEX is missing in
>SIL - WHY?
>
>SEX accounts for a fair bit of human history (as we know it) and for a fair
>bit of bad things that happend.... why nothing of this in Sil?
Read it again..theres LOTS of sex. Perhaps without your required
element of liquids and squishy noises.. but its there.
How much mythology have you read... do they all mention heaving
bosoms, how Loki got to 3rd base with a goddess, whether Aphrodite
uses Mr Palmer and sons to come to frution all that much.. I think
not. Do we need to mention the era the man who wrote it came from.
Read History.... whilst we know HenryVIII had six wives, history
remains suspisciously quiet on how many times he serviced them each
night and the actual dates he did so on..why is it so?
(a. cos it doesnt really matter that much)
What answer would satisfy your eternal lust to discover this 'why'...
paulh
Mallron
say:
> >"Where is Sex in Silmarillion"... but then I thought of other books and
the
> >real world where war and sexual exploitation (rape et. al) go hand in
> >hand... so the question changed though some the content might have not
> >matched the question quite as well... in either case: SEX is missing in
> >SIL - WHY?
> >
> >SEX accounts for a fair bit of human history (as we know it) and for a
fair
> >bit of bad things that happend.... why nothing of this in Sil?
>
> Read it again..theres LOTS of sex. Perhaps without your required
> element of liquids and squishy noises.. but its there.
> How much mythology have you read... do they all mention heaving
> bosoms, how Loki got to 3rd base with a goddess, whether Aphrodite
> uses Mr Palmer and sons to come to frution all that much.. I think
> not. Do we need to mention the era the man who wrote it came from.
>
> Read History.... whilst we know HenryVIII had six wives, history
> remains suspisciously quiet on how many times he serviced them each
> night and the actual dates he did so on..why is it so?
> (a. cos it doesnt really matter that much)
>
> What answer would satisfy your eternal lust to discover this 'why'...
>
Well... we had though plenty very graphical descriptions of fight moments
and the beauty... so this is bit different to reading Encyclopedia Britanica
looking for Henry VIII.... it's a novel after all... myth-orineted novel
perhaps... but still... you can get hands on experience on rippings ones'
head off... but nothing on the sex side... and AFAIR there was plenty of
'love'... and getting 'in love' - e.g. Thingol/Meliana, Beren/Luthien... but
not sex as such... even The Bible talks about sex, breasts, satisfying the
lover etc.... why not a book that is merely a novel?
M
paulh
wrote:
>> Read History.... whilst we know HenryVIII had six wives, history
>> remains suspisciously quiet on how many times he serviced them each
>> night and the actual dates he did so on..why is it so?
>> (a. cos it doesnt really matter that much)
>>
>> What answer would satisfy your eternal lust to discover this 'why'...
>>
>
>Well... we had though plenty very graphical descriptions of fight moments
>and the beauty... so this is bit different to reading Encyclopedia Britanica
>looking for Henry VIII.... it's a novel after all... myth-orineted novel
>perhaps... but still... you can get hands on experience on rippings ones'
>head off... but nothing on the sex side... and AFAIR there was plenty of
>'love'... and getting 'in love' - e.g. Thingol/Meliana, Beren/Luthien... but
>not sex as such... even The Bible talks about sex, breasts, satisfying the
>lover etc.... why not a book that is merely a novel?
I guess the issues I have are that...
a/ You seem to have little understanding of other peoples attitudes
and morality. You seem to equate them to your own. I can't see JRRT
being happy writing like this due to his upbringing, religous
attitudes, morality, conservative settings and the nature of what he
wanted to create. How difficult is this, that you even question it.
Some people write porn, some don't and some fall in between. To ask
why those who don't, don't makes as much sense as asking why those who
do, do. Each to their own.
b/ Its never occurred to me that all books should have the same feel.
All books about myths, fantasy and/or history MUST have sex in them or
be lacking? Why do you think that all books are lacking without it?
c/ you're prob just a troll anyway...
Actually A answers it... he didn't think it appropriate due to his
conservative attitude and desire to recreate an archetypal mythology.
paulh
Arkady
"Mallron" <ban...@free.polbox.pl> wrote in message
news:a21lg3$c9s$1...@news2.ipartners.pl...
> Although there is a fair bit of plundering and murdering in
Silmarillion...
> why is it so low in rape statistics? I mean... any recent war you might
> recall... if it went as far as plundering it also included sexual
> exploitation of those who lost ... nothing of this sort in Silmarillion
...
> front... sexual frustration/weakness of the author?
>
> M
I don't think that Tolkien's work suffers from the lack of Rapes.
However does anyone have a copy of that 'erotic' fanfic about Celebrian at
the hands of the orcs and wargs? Some of that stuff was amusing, and I
wouldn't mind a copy for reference...
Repost anyone?
Arky
Michael P. Reed
> > Mallron wrote:
> >
> > > WHY WHY WHY is Silmarillion so tame on this front?
> >
> > You are one sad sicko.
> >
> Please elaborate.
For those of us who have had a loved one raped there is no need for elaboration.
--
Regards,
Michael P. Reed
Russ
<pa...@fahncahn.com> writes:
>c/ you're prob just a troll anyway...
>
Please don't feed him.
Russ
Ermanna
BRIAMUTH made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
> Mall, don't be an ass. Rapes are obliquely referred to at several times in the
> Silmarillion, LOTR- f'rinstance, Elrond's wife was captured and "tormented" by
> the orcs, later dying of it,
No, thanks to Elrond's skills, she lived, but did not wish to live
in ME anymore. She was not raped, or she would have died.
<shnip>
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell,
Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School,
Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles
A nainië órenyo arano (Thy bitter lament, O my beloved,
envinya súlenyasse i mornië. deepens the darkness in my spirit.
Ai nwalmi úquénimë hísiëtilion Ah! torments unspeakable in the hollow dens
unquiciryassen! of the Misty Mountains!)
Valinórenna, An Introduction to Elvish
James
>Read it again..theres LOTS of sex. Perhaps without your required
>element of liquids and squishy noises.. but its there.
I think Mallron is indeed referring to the lack of *explicit* sex in
the Silmarillion.
>How much mythology have you read... do they all mention heaving
>bosoms, how Loki got to 3rd base with a goddess, whether Aphrodite
>uses Mr Palmer and sons to come to frution all that much.. I think
>not.
There's a fair bit of rather raunchy sex in much mythology, especially
that of the Egyptians (the story of Osiris' death focuses rather
heavily on what happens to his penis after it is torn off by his
murderer/brother; the Ship of the Dead's mast is actually a huge
ape-phallus; and the less said of the Ithyphallic God, the better) and
Tolkien's beloved Norse (I have vague memories of Freya, or maybe
Frigg, having sex with several dwarfs - presumably simultaneously - to
get some sort of precious artifact from them). The point is, this sort
of sexual material is a fairly common aspect of much real-life
mythological tradition, and the fact that Tolkien mostly ignored it in
his synthesised myths is worthy of discussion.
>Do we need to mention the era the man who wrote it came from.
Now, *that's* a good point. I see no need to get snippy and act as if
Mallron's question was somehow invalid. Just answer it, with this.
James
(Who was very tired when he wrote this: if I'm not making
sense/phrasing things weirdly, forgive me.)
"Whoever truly loves the written word must wish
frustration and ruin on those who attempt to film it."
Mallron
> >Do we need to mention the era the man who wrote it came from.
>
> Now, *that's* a good point. I see no need to get snippy and act as if
> Mallron's question was somehow invalid. Just answer it, with this.
>
under the pressure of very decent behaviour) and yet was one of the more
indecent writers ... and persecuted and sentenced for indecency?
Does this not show that era (implying certain social behaviour) of any given
time although important should not be considered the final answer? Otherwise
everyone in 60s/70s would be a hippy, everyone from 80s would be a disco
man, and the 90s folk would split between the extasy driven dance-poppies
and speed driven techno-freaks. This is way too simple an answer to be
anywhere near accurate.
M.
Antonio Gonzalez
"Mallron" <ban...@free.polbox.pl> escribió en el mensaje
news:a292qb$1nu4$1...@news2.ipartners.pl...
> >
> > >Do we need to mention the era the man who wrote it came from.
> >
> > Now, *that's* a good point. I see no need to get snippy and act as if
> > Mallron's question was somehow invalid. Just answer it, with this.
> >
> Was it Orson Wells who actually lived mostly in Victorian times (so more
> under the pressure of very decent behaviour) and yet was one of the more
> indecent writers ... and persecuted and sentenced for indecency?
>
Did he film "Citizen Kane" in the XIX century?
Perhaps you meant Oscar Wilde... :-)
Antonio
Mallron
> > > >Do we need to mention the era the man who wrote it came from.
> > >
> > > Now, *that's* a good point. I see no need to get snippy and act as if
> > > Mallron's question was somehow invalid. Just answer it, with this.
> > >
> > Was it Orson Wells who actually lived mostly in Victorian times (so more
> > under the pressure of very decent behaviour) and yet was one of the more
> > indecent writers ... and persecuted and sentenced for indecency?
> >
>
> Did he film "Citizen Kane" in the XIX century?
>
> Perhaps you meant Oscar Wilde... :-)
>
> Antonio
>
>
the initial sentence with Oscar Wilde instead of Orson Wells or is the
intent visible despite the mistake?
M
Joy
my simple answer is that Tolkien was Catholic and conservative and
wrote with his kids in mind. :)
-joy
paulh
>>Do we need to mention the era the man who wrote it came from.
>
>Now, *that's* a good point. I see no need to get snippy and act as if
>Mallron's question was somehow invalid. Just answer it, with this.
>
>James
Well perhaps (perhaps) i was a bit snippy... but then you go and see
his post regarding the lack of Rapes in LOTR and The Sil and the
direct implication that Tolkien was somewhat lacking himself being the
reason...
"the Orcs enjoyed killing and destroying but were bit impotent on the
rape front... sexual frustration/weakness of the author?"
Altho he has toned down the question since then...
paulh
Smaug69
> >
> > >Do we need to mention the era the man who wrote it came from.
> >
> > Now, *that's* a good point. I see no need to get snippy and act as if
> > Mallron's question was somehow invalid. Just answer it, with this.
> >
> Was it Orson Wells who actually lived mostly in Victorian times (so more
> under the pressure of very decent behaviour) and yet was one of the more
> indecent writers ... and persecuted and sentenced for indecency?
Orson Welles was 25 when he made Citizen Kane in 1941. That means he
was born in 1916. This is well past the Victorian Era which, aside
from the fact that it was a mostly British thing, pretty much ended
well before Welles was born. Also, Welles came of age after the
Roaring Twenties which was known for its decadence. (Prohibition,
Schmohibition)
Welles got into trouble right off the bat because he went head-to-head
with William Randolph Hearst as well as the studio(RKO- there is a
nice film about the battle over Citizen Kane called RKO 281) on his
very first picture.
> Does this not show that era (implying certain social behaviour) of any given
> time although important should not be considered the final answer?
Of course, but everyone is a product of their era, environment, social
and religious upbringing, so on and so forth. You cannot escape that.
Tolkien was a religious conservative. He would never have willingly
put overt sexual tones in his mythology.
> Otherwise
> everyone in 60s/70s would be a hippy, everyone from 80s would be a disco
> man,
You mean everyone from the mid-to-late 70s. 1981 was the deathknell
for Disco.(Thank God) I know. I lived through it.
> and the 90s folk would split between the extasy driven dance-poppies
> and speed driven techno-freaks. This is way too simple an answer to be
> anywhere near accurate.
I still don't understand why you would be concerned about sex in
Tolkien's mythology in the first place. Is there a rule that says that
all mythologies have to talk about sex in detail?
As for the Bible, it was written by many diferent men over a long
period of time. Of course, there's going to be some variety in the
details. Tolkien was just one man and the details he played around
with- especially late in life- were philosophical.
Smaug69
Mallron
> was born in 1916. This is well past the Victorian Era which, aside
> from the fact that it was a mostly British thing, pretty much ended
> well before Welles was born. Also, Welles came of age after the
> Roaring Twenties which was known for its decadence. (Prohibition,
> Schmohibition)
Well spotted... but as I replied to Antonio... I had Oscar Wilde in mind :)
> > Otherwise
> > everyone in 60s/70s would be a hippy, everyone from 80s would be a disco
> > man,
>
> You mean everyone from the mid-to-late 70s. 1981 was the deathknell
> for Disco.(Thank God) I know. I lived through it.
Ahem... what about all those Duran Duran, Aha, Mike Moreen, Billy Joel,
Sabrina, Samantha Fox and similar music in the 80s? I wouldn't go as far as
to call it POP :)... nah... maybe it was a little bit different than Boney
M... but disco-ey nonetheless ;)
M
rizzo
> under the pressure of very decent behaviour) and yet was one of the more
> indecent writers ... and persecuted and sentenced for indecency?
>
no, i believe you're thinking of oscar wilde, who mostly wrote respectable,
well received poetry, prose and plays in his time. he was convicted and
imprisoned for sodomy, an issue quite apart from his published writings.
among other works, he wrote the picture of dorian gray and the importance
of being ernest.
orson welles on the other hand was an actor and director in the mid-20th
century who directed citizen kane and the infamous radio production of war
of the worlds and who sold wine (but not before its' time.)
-pam
Mallron
> > under the pressure of very decent behaviour) and yet was one of the more
> > indecent writers ... and persecuted and sentenced for indecency?
> >
>
> no, i believe you're thinking of oscar wilde, who mostly wrote
respectable,
> well received poetry, prose and plays in his time. he was convicted and
> imprisoned for sodomy, an issue quite apart from his published writings.
> among other works, he wrote the picture of dorian gray and the importance
> of being ernest.
>
> orson welles on the other hand was an actor and director in the mid-20th
> century who directed citizen kane and the infamous radio production of war
> of the worlds and who sold wine (but not before its' time.)
>
I guess various newsfeeds update at different speed - this had already been
discussed, reviewed, recaptured on etc.
Indeed - Oscar Wilde was the person of choice... even if Orson Wells was
named - funny as it may sound I was initially thinking it was Orson Scott
Card or was it Oscar C Scott?
Ahem... mind it not... Wilde lived in Victorian era and yet was a 'bad'
bwoy.... hence the strict relation to era doesn't hold quite as strong as
one might desire... IMHO
M
D.G. Porter
>
>
> orson welles on the other hand was an actor and director in the mid-20th
> century who directed citizen kane and the infamous radio production of war
> of the worlds and who sold wine (but not before its' time.)
>
> -pam
"We know a farm in Lincolnshire, where Mrs. Buckley lives. Every July,
peas grow there." Do you really mean that?? I think it's so nice that
we're talking about peas and you see a snow-covered field.
We're talking about them growing and she's picked them already.
I don't understand -- what must be over for "In July"?
There's no known way of beginning an English sentence with "In" and
emphasizing it.
Impossible! Meaningless!
He isn't thinking.
You didn't say it, HE said it. Your "friend."
Get me a jury to tell me how to emphasize "In" and I'll -- I'll go down
on you.
Here under protest is "Beef burgers."
This is a lot of shit, you know that...
The right reading is the one I'm giving you.
I do twenty times the work for you that I do for any other commercial.
You're such pests!
No money is worth what you ...
Celaeno
>SEX accounts for a fair bit of human history (as we know it) and for a fair
>bit of bad things that happend.... why nothing of this in Sil?
Gratuitious sex/rape scenes do not a good story make.
Since you can't seem to understand how a story can be good without
everything in the plot revolving around yonis and lingams, go find
yourself a pulp romance novel or ten, and stop trolling.
Cel
The Rowe Family
ban...@free.polbox.pl wrote on 1/17/02 5:37 AM:
So it is insufficient to imply sex, and other aspects of 'normal' human
relationships, through simple narrative exposition? Such as, the couple in
question were 'betrothed', or married, or in fact had children...
Or by the fact that a woman was jealous, or a man lusted for a particular
woman.
You need details, hmmm...?
Furthermore, battle tactics and strategy of war have had more impact on
history than casual liaisons (breathy rants regarding Helen of Troy and
Cleopatra notwithstanding). As have marriages between ruling families, even
sexless marriages.
But Tolkien did not hesitate to use lust and love as motivation for his most
memorable characters, and the greatest events in his stories (ie., Beren and
Luthien, et. al.). Not always lust in an overtly sexual sense, but
seduction and lust and longing just the same. And love for ideals as well
as individuals.
But, I suppose you need to know the details. How long, how wet, how many
times, what positions etc...
Sad.
Flame of the West
> hi, i'm new to this newsgroup...
Welcome!
> my simple answer is that Tolkien was Catholic and conservative and
> wrote with his kids in mind. :)
In other words, he didn't put naughty-bits into his work
because HE DIDN'T WANT TO.
With all the babbling suddenly going on about Oscar Wilde and
who's being snippy to whom, most people will miss the obvious
and simple answer.
To Mallron: note that this doesn't imply any hangups or
inadequacy on Tolkien's part. He just didn't want to.
Smaug69
> > Orson Welles was 25 when he made Citizen Kane in 1941. That means he
> > was born in 1916. This is well past the Victorian Era which, aside
> > from the fact that it was a mostly British thing, pretty much ended
> > well before Welles was born. Also, Welles came of age after the
> > Roaring Twenties which was known for its decadence. (Prohibition,
> > Schmohibition)
>
> Well spotted... but as I replied to Antonio... I had Oscar Wilde in mind :)
You have to remember that while Wilde was a writer, Tolkien was a
linguist/philologist. And they had two completely different agendas.
> > > Otherwise
> > > everyone in 60s/70s would be a hippy, everyone from 80s would be a disco
> > > man,
> >
> > You mean everyone from the mid-to-late 70s. 1981 was the deathknell
> > for Disco.(Thank God) I know. I lived through it.
>
> Ahem... what about all those Duran Duran, Aha, Mike Moreen, Billy Joel,
> Sabrina, Samantha Fox and similar music in the 80s? I wouldn't go as far as
> to call it POP :)... nah... maybe it was a little bit different than Boney
> M... but disco-ey nonetheless ;)
Who the hell are Mike Moreen and Sabrina? And Samantha Fox was a joke-
much like Tiffany. Billy Joel was a product of the 70s, BTW.(Piano
Man, anyone?) The music that I most remember from the early 80s was
The Police, Michael Jackson, The Clash, Men at Work, Rush, Toto,
Culture Club, Tom Petty, etc. As for the rest of the 80s it was pretty
much dominated by Big Hair Bands. <shudders>
Smaug69
Ash
morgoth raped the silmarils, according to the index in my copy of the sil...
ash
Jim Gregors
>
> > > Although there is a fair bit of plundering and murdering in
> Silmarillion...
> > > why is it so low in rape statistics? I mean... any recent war you might
> > > recall... if it went as far as plundering it also included sexual
> > > exploitation of those who lost ... nothing of this sort in Silmarillion
> ...
> rape
> > > front... sexual frustration/weakness of the author?
> >
>
> This is presumptious... but anyway... there are plenty of women mentioned
> though not named - e.g. the Rhoan women left at Dunharrow... plenty of rape
> chances :)
What the fuck is wrong with you? Did it ever occur to you that Tolkien
had no desire to describe rape or any of the other unfortunate acts
which often accompany wars? If you're so interested, why don't you sit
down and fantasize out your own rape scenario and then present it to the
group for review? I'm sure the female members would be thrilled to read
your ideas.
Jim G.
Flame of the West
> > You are obsessed with rape. It's eating you up that
> > you aren't getting your rape fantasies reinforced via
> > the Silmarillion.
> >
> Heheh... and all this diagnosis from just one visit.... what's your hourly
> rate doctor...?
That's the great thing about the Internet - you get free
diagnosis and advice, and what you get is worth every penny!
Flame of the West
> What the f*** is wrong with you? Did it ever occur to you that Tolkien
> had no desire to describe rape or any of the other unfortunate acts
> which often accompany wars? If you're so interested, why don't you sit
> down and fantasize out your own rape scenario and then present it to the
> group for review? I'm sure the female members would be thrilled to read
> your ideas.
He really is a sicko, isn't he?
Tamfiiris Gloruloke
>He really is a sicko, isn't he?
the Usenet equivalent of a flasher? <nirg>
--
Tamf
how beautiful they are, / the lordly ones
who dwell in the hills, / in the hollow hills. (Fiona Macleod)