Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk3 Ch2: The Riders of Rohan

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Belba Grubb from Stock

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Jul 6, 2004, 7:58:14 AM7/6/04
to
Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan


To check out the other Chapters of the Week or to sign up to do a
chapter of your own, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org. Anybody
signed up for Chapter 3 yet?
_____________________

"How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged," said Aragorn. "Good and ill have not
changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves
and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to
discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."

"True indeed," said Eomer.

In this chapter we see two future kings making hard choices and acting
on them, choices that will change the course of the War of the Ring.
But there is much more here as we are introduced to new lands and
characters and learn more about ones whom we already think we know.
_____________________

CHAPTER SUMMARY :

All night Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli track the Orcs through the Emyn
Muil. They find some Orc bodies; Aragorn notices that all are
Northern Orcs and that none are the ones with the strange emblem of
the White Hand, which leads him to believe that there was some
internal dispute among the Orc band they are pursuing. The Three
Hunters find no sign of the hobbits among the bodies. As dawn comes
Aragorn sees the White Mountains of Gondor in the South and wonders
out loud, "…Shall Men behold the Silver Tree…." Then he turns west
and north to his own immediate task.

They find the Orc trail leading down onto the fields of Rohan, and as
the Hunters pause atop the East Wall of Rohan, Legolas sees the eagle
above them, now speeding northward. They also see a great company
moving out on the grassy plain some 12 leagues (36 miles) away, and
quickly the Man, Elf and Dwarf descend to the plain and start off at a
run after the Orcs. Along the way Aragorn spots hobbit tracks leading
away from the main trail and then curving sharply in again - at the
furthest point of the hobbit tracks away from the trail he finds the
brooch of an Elven cloak. The Hunters realize that one of the hobbits
at least (most likely Pippin, who was smallest) had the use of his
legs and his wits at that point, and they hurry on, hoping that the
hobbit hasn't paid too dearly for his courage.

They run all day long and at nightfall are 12 leagues out across the
plain. After some debate they decide not to chase the Orcs at night,
for there is little to no moonlight and they might miss the trail or
other important signs in the dark. The next morning Legolas tells
them he feels that the Orcs have traveled all night and are now far,
far away. Aragorn listens to the ground and notes that indeed "faint
and far are the feet of our enemies," but that there is also the sound
of hooves galloping heading northward. He wonders what that means.

Again the Three Hunters pursue the Orcs all day, eating lembas as they
run and finding new strength. By the end of the day then are now 24
leagues (72 miles) out from the East Wall and must stop as night
falls. Aragorn notes that the land feels strange to him, too silent;
also, the stars and moon are veiled and he is "weary as no Ranger
should be with a clear trail to follow." He suspects (and Legolas
confirms) that they are facing a will before them that makes them
weary and speeds their foes onward: Saruman.

The next day they find where the Orcs camped, but Aragorn estimates
that the site is 36 hours old and that by sunset of the previous day
the Orcs would have reached Fangorn Forest. Still the Hunters
continue on and at sunset reach some downs that are about 10 leagues
southeast of Fangorn. The next morning, they see the Orc trail
turning from the downs to the Entwash that flows out of the forest,
but along the trail and coming toward them is a group of over 100
horsemen who obviously have already met the Orcs. Their pursuit at an
end, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli sit down to await the arrival of the
horsemen.

The Riders of Rohan come up and begin to pass the three, not seeing
them in their Elven cloaks, so Aragorn stands up and calls to them.
The Riders react instantly and soon the Three Hunters are surrounded
by a ring of spears and bows, and their chief, a tall, young man named
Eomer, rides forward, dismounts and asks who they are and what they're
doing in Rohan. Aragorn at first doesn't give his true name to Eomer,
but after some tense talk and challenges in which Eomer and Gimli
almost come to blows, he is able to see that Eomer, even when angry,
will listen to the strangers before striking. Only then, and to the
surprise of his two companions (who haven't seen him in this mood
before), Aragorn draws Anduril and declares himself the heir of
Isildur, Elendil's son of Gondor. Awed, Eomer talks further with
Aragorn, calling the stranger Wingfoot for having traveled 45 leagues
(135 miles) in under four days. They exchange news, with the Hunters
learning that Rohan is not at open war yet with Sauron and there is
division among the Rohirrim about whether Rohan should aid Gondor if
summoned; Eomer also hints to Aragorn that there is trouble in the
halls of Theoden King; they also find out that Saruman has claimed
lordship over the land and there has been war with him for several
months, including an ongoing battle right now in the Westemnet.
Saruman has Orcs, Wolf-riders and evil Men in his service. Eomer's
charge is the Eastemnet, and when he heard of them, Eomer pursued the
Orcs without the king's leave, fearing a league between Saruman and
Sauron. He caught up with the Orc band at the edge of Fangorn Forest
and destroyed them all. Aragorn asks if they found any unusual bodies
among the Orcs, halflings (whom one rider has heard of, though he
deems them a legendary race), and Eomer says that they did not. The
Three Hunters must therefore travel on, and Eomer lends them two
horses but asks, that after they have found what they sought, they
bring the horses back to Meduseld and submit themselves to the
judgment of Theoden:

"In this I place myself, and maybe my very life, in the
keeping of your good faith. Do not fail."

"I will not," said Aragorn.

The Riders and the Hunters part, and Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli ride
up the Orc trail to the edge of Fangorn Forest. Along the way they
discover another trail that joins up with the main one, but on neither
trail does Aragorn find any sign of the hobbits. They arrive at the
battleground in the late afternoon and by nightfall have found no sign
of the hobbits and must stop because of dark.

They camp for the night under a chestnut tree and discuss what little
is known among Elves and Men about the strange forest. Gimli takes
the first watch, and not too long after they settle down an old man in
a great cloak and a wide hat suddenly appears at the edge of the
firelight. Aragorn jumps up and greets the man, who disappears. In
the meantime the horses have run off. The companions hear them
neighing and whinnying once in the distant dark, and then all is
silent. All they can do is stay there, though it seems likely enough
that Saruman has found them. They take turns at watch, but nothing
happens during the long hours.
_____________________

DISCUSSION POINTS:

This is probably already too long for many, but hey, we're fans: let's
wallow in it, eh? (BG)

Anyway, some of these later chapters contain a lot more than did the
earlier chapters. They remind me of tapestries - the longer you look
at them, the more you see. This one is part travelogue, with some of
the best scenic description in the story, and part character
development; and it also is packed with information that moves the
plot along and allows us now to see some of the broader picture for
ourselves.

TRAVELOGUE: Just a few of my favorite descriptions are dawn on the
Emyn Muil; the nautical terms used to describe how the East Wall and
the plain of Rohan look (fathoms, green sea, and the sound of running
water); the Entwash as "a silver thread on a green floor," and the
"darkling West under the sickle moon" on the night they realize
Saruman is hindering them.

CHARACTERS: Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli really show their stuff here
individually and together. A few examples:

Aragorn: We see an impressive display of his Ranger skills here, get a
hint of his past travels, see his leadership style in action
(listening to his two companions and then making his own decision),
watch him claim his title for the first time, and see what may be an
effect of his Elvish blood (the light around his brow that Legolas
sees flickering).

Legolas: He really comes alive here in many ways.

Gimli: He's down to earth, practical, and oddly susceptible to
Saruman's enchantment, which kills all hope in his heart. He also
seems to provide the "hobbit-like" viewpoint for the reader in the
absence of all the other hobbits throughout this chapter.

The three also show their differences both when they are walking along
in the late stages of the pursuit and when they await the arrival of
the Riders. And they don't let us forget the other characters - Frodo
and Sam are mentioned, and we learn more how important Gandalf was.

The Orcs: We really get a better picture of them by looking at the
things they throw away. Also Eomer tells us that the Orcs of Isengard
are more fell than all other breeds. Interestingly, JRRT describes a
"goblin head" (presumably Ugluk's, whom Eomer killed in hand-to-hand
combat) on a stake at the battleground on Fangorn's edge - it wasn't
just in "The Hobbit" that the terms goblin and orc were intermixed.

The Riders of Rohan: Simple, yet perceptive, emotional but stalwart,
and they are troubled now in their land between Mordor and Isengard
(and do NOT pay tribute in horses to Mordor!!). While researching the
Web for stuff on them I came across pictures that are presumably from
the most recent movie, and those don't really jive with my picture of
a Rider of Rohan based on the description in this chapter - too
reminiscent of the Mongolian cavalries, I thought.

About the horses, it's hard to find a lot of online information easily
about war horses and what they could do, what breeds were good for
that (though today we do have the Lipizanners), etc. I did come
across an essay of Montaigne's called "War Horses, or Destriers" at
http://www.equilibrium.org/montaigne/essay05.html. Although it tends
to ramble away from the topic of horses a bit and has a lot of Latin
thrown in (which I just skipped), it's interesting in this context
both because it describes several examples of men doing pretty much
exactly the same sort of thing that Legolas is described as doing with
Arod, and more. Also, Montaigne (who was French) offers a look at the
down side of being a horse lord:

"Our ancestors, and especially at the time they had war with
the English, in all their greatest engagements and pitched
battles fought for the most part on foot, that they might have
nothing but their own force, courage, and constancy to trust
to in a quarrel of so great concern as life and honor. You
stake (whatever Chrysanthes in Xenophon says to the contrary)
your valor and your fortune upon that of your horse; his
wounds or death bring your person into the same danger; his
fear or fury shall make you reputed rash or cowardly; if he
have an ill mouth, or will not answer to the spur, your honor
must answer for it. And, therefore, I do not think it strange
that those battles were more firm and furious than those that
are fought on horseback."

Eomer and Elfhelm definitely would not agree. (g)

Finally, there seems to be an in-depth look at the qualities of
leadership in this chapter. One of those qualities would be to listen
when the heart speaks clearly, as Aragorn did in the last chapter; in
this chapter Eomer has done the same thing, even though it meant
disobeying his king. He also exhibits several other qualities of a
good leader and ruler.

I just love the interaction between Eomer and Aragorn, especially at
first. It's so macho initially, with Eomer on horseback advancing
until the point of his spear is almost touching Aragorn, who is on
foot and does not move. Then the Rider jumps off his horse and starts
talking with them and Aragorn tests him, it seems, by waiting to see
if he will listen after he has been stirred to great anger. Only when
Eomer shows he is capable of this does Aragorn reveal his true
identity. By the end of their discussion they have an instinctive
trust of each other. It's really fascinating how that all develops.

In the "What if" category, what if Gandalf had not returned? Would
Aragorn have been able to draw on his earlier conversations with
Theoden to heal him and bring the Riders to Gondor's aid in time?

And what about the chestnut seeming to be glad of the fire? That
seemed a bit too much, especially in view of what we will learn later
of how the Ents view the fires of Isengard. True, on very cold,
subzero nights, trees will split apart as their sap freezes -- it
sounds like a gunshot on a cold winter night -- but this night, though
chilly, was nowhere near cold enough for a tree to show its
appreciation of heat.

Well, that's just some of the stuff I saw here. Comments, additions…?

aelfwina

unread,
Jul 6, 2004, 10:58:17 AM7/6/04
to

"Belba Grubb from Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message
news:as4le0t1hbp5fkemu...@4ax.com...

> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
>
>
> To check out the other Chapters of the Week or to sign up to do a
> chapter of your own, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org. Anybody
> signed up for Chapter 3 yet?
> _____________________
>
> "How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"
>
> "As he ever has judged," said Aragorn. "Good and ill have not
> changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves
> and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to
> discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."
>
> "True indeed," said Eomer.
>
> In this chapter we see two future kings making hard choices and acting
> on them, choices that will change the course of the War of the Ring.
> But there is much more here as we are introduced to new lands and
> characters and learn more about ones whom we already think we know.
> _____________________
>
> CHAPTER SUMMARY :

(snip of excellent summary)


> _____________________
>
> DISCUSSION POINTS:
>
> This is probably already too long for many, but hey, we're fans: let's
> wallow in it, eh? (BG)
>
> Anyway, some of these later chapters contain a lot more than did the
> earlier chapters. They remind me of tapestries - the longer you look
> at them, the more you see. This one is part travelogue, with some of
> the best scenic description in the story, and part character
> development; and it also is packed with information that moves the
> plot along and allows us now to see some of the broader picture for
> ourselves.
>
> TRAVELOGUE: Just a few of my favorite descriptions are dawn on the
> Emyn Muil; the nautical terms used to describe how the East Wall and
> the plain of Rohan look (fathoms, green sea, and the sound of running
> water); the Entwash as "a silver thread on a green floor," and the
> "darkling West under the sickle moon" on the night they realize
> Saruman is hindering them.

And there is the entire first paragraph of the chapter, laying out the
terrain beautifully!


>
> CHARACTERS: Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli really show their stuff here
> individually and together. A few examples:
>
> Aragorn: We see an impressive display of his Ranger skills here, get a
> hint of his past travels, see his leadership style in action
> (listening to his two companions and then making his own decision),
> watch him claim his title for the first time, and see what may be an
> effect of his Elvish blood (the light around his brow that Legolas
> sees flickering).

Yes, this is the first time we really see him as a tracker and hunter; the
only other time we've seen his skills at reading signs was between Bree and
Rivendell, and he was not pursuing anything then.

>
> Legolas: He really comes alive here in many ways.

He shows us now many of the traits of Elves that up till now we have only
glimpsed in passing or been told about: tirelessness, the ability to go long
periods without rest, and though we have seen him use his keen Elven
eyesight before, it has not been so impressive.


>
> Gimli: He's down to earth, practical, and oddly susceptible to
> Saruman's enchantment, which kills all hope in his heart. He also
> seems to provide the "hobbit-like" viewpoint for the reader in the
> absence of all the other hobbits throughout this chapter.
>

Very good point. With no hobbit in this chapter, Gimli does take on the
"everyman" role usually assigned to hobbits. We also get to see his
temper--as with his little confrontation with Eomer.


> The three also show their differences both when they are walking along
> in the late stages of the pursuit and when they await the arrival of
> the Riders. And they don't let us forget the other characters - Frodo
> and Sam are mentioned, and we learn more how important Gandalf was.

In their minds, we see, the Fellowship still exists; even though they are
apart, they do not forget one another. It just goes to show how much of a
bond the Nine had developed on their journey so far.

>
> The Orcs: We really get a better picture of them by looking at the
> things they throw away. Also Eomer tells us that the Orcs of Isengard
> are more fell than all other breeds. Interestingly, JRRT describes a
> "goblin head" (presumably Ugluk's, whom Eomer killed in hand-to-hand
> combat) on a stake at the battleground on Fangorn's edge - it wasn't
> just in "The Hobbit" that the terms goblin and orc were intermixed.
>
> The Riders of Rohan: Simple, yet perceptive, emotional but stalwart,
> and they are troubled now in their land between Mordor and Isengard
> (and do NOT pay tribute in horses to Mordor!!). While researching the
> Web for stuff on them I came across pictures that are presumably from
> the most recent movie, and those don't really jive with my picture of
> a Rider of Rohan based on the description in this chapter - too
> reminiscent of the Mongolian cavalries, I thought.

They didn't look Mongolian to me; I thought they seemed to have an
appropriately Saxonish feel to them, but hey, different strokes.

>
> About the horses, it's hard to find a lot of online information easily
> about war horses and what they could do, what breeds were good for
> that (though today we do have the Lipizanners), etc. I did come
> across an essay of Montaigne's called "War Horses, or Destriers" at
> http://www.equilibrium.org/montaigne/essay05.html. Although it tends
> to ramble away from the topic of horses a bit and has a lot of Latin
> thrown in (which I just skipped), it's interesting in this context
> both because it describes several examples of men doing pretty much
> exactly the same sort of thing that Legolas is described as doing with
> Arod, and more. Also, Montaigne (who was French) offers a look at the
> down side of being a horse lord:

Although I know little or nothing about horses, I love to watch them in
action. I have seen them used in some of the exercises that were used in
the Middle Ages: tilting at the ring, tilting at the quintain, spearing from
horseback, etc. It's impressive.

>
> "Our ancestors, and especially at the time they had war with
> the English, in all their greatest engagements and pitched
> battles fought for the most part on foot, that they might have
> nothing but their own force, courage, and constancy to trust
> to in a quarrel of so great concern as life and honor. You
> stake (whatever Chrysanthes in Xenophon says to the contrary)
> your valor and your fortune upon that of your horse; his
> wounds or death bring your person into the same danger; his
> fear or fury shall make you reputed rash or cowardly; if he
> have an ill mouth, or will not answer to the spur, your honor
> must answer for it. And, therefore, I do not think it strange
> that those battles were more firm and furious than those that
> are fought on horseback."
>

I've seen horses balk while the riders were trying to do the aforementioned
exercises, much to the rider's embarassment, so I can see what he meant.

> Eomer and Elfhelm definitely would not agree. (g)
>
> Finally, there seems to be an in-depth look at the qualities of
> leadership in this chapter. One of those qualities would be to listen
> when the heart speaks clearly, as Aragorn did in the last chapter; in
> this chapter Eomer has done the same thing, even though it meant
> disobeying his king. He also exhibits several other qualities of a
> good leader and ruler.
>
> I just love the interaction between Eomer and Aragorn, especially at
> first. It's so macho initially, with Eomer on horseback advancing
> until the point of his spear is almost touching Aragorn, who is on
> foot and does not move. Then the Rider jumps off his horse and starts
> talking with them and Aragorn tests him, it seems, by waiting to see
> if he will listen after he has been stirred to great anger. Only when
> Eomer shows he is capable of this does Aragorn reveal his true
> identity. By the end of their discussion they have an instinctive
> trust of each other. It's really fascinating how that all develops.

This scene is one of my favorite confrontations in the story. I love how we
see Gimli's reaction to slander of the Lady, and Legolas leaping to Gimli's
defense, and how Aragorn is easily able to back them down. These three have
definitely bonded in a special way on their quest to rescue Merry and
Pippin.

And you are right as well about how Eomer shows his quality. And he deals
with his own little bit of dissent: "Peace, Eothain!" We don't see very much
at all of this character except for the one little moment, yet I have an
indelible impression of Eothain's personality just from his one little bit
part, here and where the horses are given. Young, brash, outspoken, a
privileged kinsman of Eomer, and yet loyal and well-disciplined. Amazing
little personality sketch for a minor character.

>
> In the "What if" category, what if Gandalf had not returned? Would
> Aragorn have been able to draw on his earlier conversations with
> Theoden to heal him and bring the Riders to Gondor's aid in time?

Very interesting thought. We know Aragorn's skill as a healer, although the
extent of it has yet to be revealed. Could he have healed Theoden? I'm
inclined to think so. But I am not so sure he could have counter-acted
Grima so effectively. And without Gandalf's intervention, the three would
probably have continued their search for the two missing hobbits, which
would have thrown off a lot of the plot.

>
> And what about the chestnut seeming to be glad of the fire? That
> seemed a bit too much, especially in view of what we will learn later
> of how the Ents view the fires of Isengard. True, on very cold,
> subzero nights, trees will split apart as their sap freezes -- it
> sounds like a gunshot on a cold winter night -- but this night, though
> chilly, was nowhere near cold enough for a tree to show its
> appreciation of heat.

Perhaps it was not so much the fire itself as it was the presence of an Elf,
and the fact that the fire was *not* an Orc fire? I would say that maybe
Legolas was just being fanciful, but he is a wood-elf, so I venture to say
he would know.
>
> Well, that's just some of the stuff I saw here. Comments, additions.?

One of my favorite quotes: " 'How shall a Man judge what to do in such
times?'
'As he has ever judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since


yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among
Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in

his own house.'
Barbara

>


Taemon

unread,
Jul 6, 2004, 2:37:16 PM7/6/04
to
Belba Grubb from Stock wrote:

> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan

On my last reading, I was delighted to see that Éomer has a sense
of humour. Aragorn does his "I am Isildurs heir"-thing and Éomer
says "Wow man, what have I been smoking?" Well, actually he says
"Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass" but it's
close. Aragorn can be such an arrogant jerk sometimes.

T.


Raven

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Jul 6, 2004, 3:52:05 PM7/6/04
to
"Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> skrev i en meddelelse
news:2l09r4F...@uni-berlin.de...

> Aragorn can be such an arrogant jerk sometimes.

Wouldn't you, with an ancestry *and* a fiancée like his?

Raaf.


Emma Pease

unread,
Jul 6, 2004, 10:45:05 PM7/6/04
to
In article <as4le0t1hbp5fkemu...@4ax.com>, Belba Grubb from Stock wrote:
> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
>
>
> To check out the other Chapters of the Week or to sign up to do a
> chapter of your own, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org. Anybody
> signed up for Chapter 3 yet?
> _____________________
>
> "How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"
>
> "As he ever has judged," said Aragorn. "Good and ill have not
> changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves
> and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to
> discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."
>
> "True indeed," said Eomer.
>
> In this chapter we see two future kings making hard choices and acting
> on them, choices that will change the course of the War of the Ring.
> But there is much more here as we are introduced to new lands and
> characters and learn more about ones whom we already think we know.
> _____________________
>

> Well, that's just some of the stuff I saw here. Comments, additions?

I'll add a chapter timeline with some bits we learn earlier and later.


Feb 25
- first battle of the Isen, death of Theodred

Feb 26
- Breaking of the Fellowship
- Frodo and Sam cross to the east bank and head off
- Merry and Pippin captured by orcs
- Death and funeral of Boromir
- late afternoon, Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas set off after the orcs

- evening, orcs stop for a while in the valley between the two ridges
of the Emyn Muil. Grishnakh leaves. Pippin frees his hands.
- early night, orcs reach the west edge of the Emyn Muil, sighted by a
rider of Rohan
- little bit later (moon hasn't set), Pippin swerves off and drops brooch

Feb 27
- dawn, Aragorn's party reaches the western ridge of the Emyn Muil,
Legolas sights an eagle heading north, orcs 12 leagues away
- early morning, find Pippin's brooch
- night, Aragorn's party rests, 12 leagues from the Emyn Muil

- midnight, Eomer starts pursuing the Orcs (is this midnight of the
26/27 or 27/28?) Does Eomer know of Theodred's death?

- Gandalf sees Treebeard but doesn't speak to him. If the high place
is in Lothlorien, Gandalf got to Fangorn fairly quickly. (I know,
a later chapter discussion)

Feb 28
- Aragorn's party continues NW
- dusk, are 24 leagues from the Emyn Muil
- night, rests

- morning, orc party camps temporarily on the banks of the Entwash,
Grishnakh rejoins

-dusk, Eomer's eored overtakes the Orcs at the edge of Fangorn

Feb 29
- just before noon, Aragorn's party reaches the downs
- find Orc camp (36 hours old)
- night, rests, 10 leagues from Fangorn

- pre-dawn, Merry and Pippin escape
- dawn, Eomer attacks and destroys the orcs
- Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard

Feb 30
- morning, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli meet Eomer returning to Meduseld
given horses
- late afternoon, arrive at Fangorn and start searching the battlefield
- night, horses run off, old man sighted


> DISCUSSION POINTS:

> In the "What if" category, what if Gandalf had not returned? Would
> Aragorn have been able to draw on his earlier conversations with
> Theoden to heal him and bring the Riders to Gondor's aid in time?

But by the time Aragorn and company had gotten to Edoras it probably
would have been ruins, Theoden dead and either Eowyn forcibly wed to
Grima or dead. Remember they have lost their horses and will have to
walk there, a several day journey.


--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht

Taemon

unread,
Jul 7, 2004, 10:27:25 AM7/7/04
to
Raven wrote:

> Taemon:


> > Aragorn can be such an arrogant jerk sometimes.
> Wouldn't you, with an ancestry *and* a fiancée like
> his?

I certainly hope not. Especially the ancestry thing. Would you be
impressed by someone who claims to have the blood of King Arthur
in their veins? And Isildur is even longer ago.

T.


aelfwina

unread,
Jul 7, 2004, 3:00:24 PM7/7/04
to

"Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
news:2l2finF...@uni-berlin.de...

Well, if the person had actual proof that he was a direct descendant of a
real King Arthur--yea, I'd be impressed. And for Aragorn, you can't get
better proof than the testimony of the still living twin brother of his
ultimate ancestor. But I don't see Aragorn as an arrogant jerk, ever. I
*like* Aragorn.
Barbara


T.
>
>


Taemon

unread,
Jul 7, 2004, 3:07:21 PM7/7/04
to
aelfwina wrote:

> > > Taemon:


> > Would you be impressed by someone who claims to have
> > the blood of King Arthur in their veins? And Isildur is
> > even longer ago.
> Well, if the person had actual proof that he was a direct
> descendant of a real King Arthur--yea, I'd be impressed.

It's a long time ago; there wouldn't me much left. And if there
is one descendant, there are bound to be thousands. How many
people could claim kinship with Attilla the Hun, again?

> And for Aragorn, you can't get better proof than the
> testimony of the still living twin brother of his
> ultimate ancestor. But I don't see Aragorn as an
> arrogant jerk, ever. I *like* Aragorn.

I like him in the earlier parst. But as the book proceeds he
becomes more and more like a robot. An arrogant robot ;-)

T.


aelfwina

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Jul 7, 2004, 3:30:50 PM7/7/04
to

"Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
news:2l2vviF...@uni-berlin.de...

Oh, well, different strokes, and all that. I do see that he becomes more
formal as he has to take on Gondorian manners, but I don't see him losing
his "Strider-ness", just as using a different kind of cloak to blend in,
another Ranger skill.
Barbara
>

> T.
>
>


Taemon

unread,
Jul 7, 2004, 3:33:45 PM7/7/04
to
aelfwina wrote:

> Oh, well, different strokes, and all that. I do see that
> he becomes more formal as he has to take on Gondorian
> manners, but I don't see him losing his "Strider-ness",
> just as using a different kind of cloak to blend in,
> another Ranger skill.

Well, it isn't only Aragorn. Speech is getting more formal by
everyone further on in the book. I miss the humour.

T.


Raven

unread,
Jul 7, 2004, 2:49:28 PM7/7/04
to
"Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> skrev i en meddelelse
news:2l2finF...@uni-berlin.de...

> Raven wrote:

> > Taemon:

Whoever the model was that the King Arthur myths were based on, even if
there was only one historical person with that distinction, if he left any
descendants at all then probably most Europeans can name him among their
ancestors. Though in Britain people can probably name him as an ancestor
through many more lines than people in the Urals can.
But we are talking about Aragorn here, a character in a world where
ancestry does confer more than just status in society.

Raaf.


Belba Grubb from Stock

unread,
Jul 7, 2004, 5:13:19 PM7/7/04
to
On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 02:45:05 +0000 (UTC), Emma Pease
<em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:

<snip very helpful timeline -- thanks!>

>> In the "What if" category, what if Gandalf had not returned? Would
>> Aragorn have been able to draw on his earlier conversations with
>> Theoden to heal him and bring the Riders to Gondor's aid in time?
>
>But by the time Aragorn and company had gotten to Edoras it probably
>would have been ruins, Theoden dead and either Eowyn forcibly wed to
>Grima or dead. Remember they have lost their horses and will have to
>walk there, a several day journey.

Oh yes, that's right. Eomer would probably have been executed, too.

Barb

Belba Grubb from Stock

unread,
Jul 7, 2004, 5:11:31 PM7/7/04
to
On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:58:17 -0500, "aelfwina" <aelf...@cableone.net>
wrote:

>> Legolas: He really comes alive here in many ways.
>
>He shows us now many of the traits of Elves that up till now we have only
>glimpsed in passing or been told about: tirelessness, the ability to go long
>periods without rest, and though we have seen him use his keen Elven
>eyesight before, it has not been so impressive.

The one thing that confused me somewhat is how he slept -- he would
lie down with his eyes open, but he would also sleep while running.
That seems a little strange, but my cat would certainly envy the
ability (g).

>> Finally, there seems to be an in-depth look at the qualities of
>> leadership in this chapter. One of those qualities would be to listen
>> when the heart speaks clearly, as Aragorn did in the last chapter; in
>> this chapter Eomer has done the same thing, even though it meant
>> disobeying his king. He also exhibits several other qualities of a
>> good leader and ruler.
>>
>> I just love the interaction between Eomer and Aragorn, especially at
>> first. It's so macho initially, with Eomer on horseback advancing
>> until the point of his spear is almost touching Aragorn, who is on
>> foot and does not move. Then the Rider jumps off his horse and starts
>> talking with them and Aragorn tests him, it seems, by waiting to see
>> if he will listen after he has been stirred to great anger. Only when
>> Eomer shows he is capable of this does Aragorn reveal his true
>> identity. By the end of their discussion they have an instinctive
>> trust of each other. It's really fascinating how that all develops.
>
>This scene is one of my favorite confrontations in the story. I love how we
>see Gimli's reaction to slander of the Lady, and Legolas leaping to Gimli's
>defense, and how Aragorn is easily able to back them down. These three have
>definitely bonded in a special way on their quest to rescue Merry and
>Pippin.

While working on this chapter summary I remembered where Merry and
Pippin were finally laid to rest many, many years later: at Aragorn's
side. It seems so fitting after reading this chapter.

>And you are right as well about how Eomer shows his quality. And he deals
>with his own little bit of dissent: "Peace, Eothain!" We don't see very much
>at all of this character except for the one little moment, yet I have an
>indelible impression of Eothain's personality just from his one little bit
>part, here and where the horses are given. Young, brash, outspoken, a
>privileged kinsman of Eomer, and yet loyal and well-disciplined. Amazing
>little personality sketch for a minor character.

If one could point to any particular ability of JRRT's and call it
proof of genius, it might be this skill of his to create in so few
words such a strong character. And perhaps the best example of that
(skipping ahead a bit) would be his characterization of Eowyn in "The
King of the Golden Hall" (more on that later).

Barb

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Jul 7, 2004, 5:37:15 PM7/7/04
to
Taemon <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:

> Well, it isn't only Aragorn. Speech is getting more formal by
> everyone further on in the book. I miss the humour.

I _like_ the formal speech. But then I like 'The Silmarillion'.
Anyway, LotR does have a high, noble and tragic tale to tell.
Humour has its place in LotR, but I am glad it is used sparingly.
Unlike in a certain film...

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Jul 7, 2004, 5:45:25 PM7/7/04
to
Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:

[about Legolas]

> The one thing that confused me somewhat is how he slept -- he would
> lie down with his eyes open, but he would also sleep while running.

I think it was described as his mind reliving past memories or just
dreaming. He wasn't really sleeping, just resting his mind.

aelfwina

unread,
Jul 7, 2004, 6:47:39 PM7/7/04
to

"Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
news:2l31h3F...@uni-berlin.de...

The humor is still there, even in one of the more serious parts of the
story, in the Houses of Healing. He jokes with Merry about the pipe-weed,
and he has some rather sarcastic words for the expert in herbs who can't
seem to lay his hands on the athelas. He is quite funny in those bits, and
that's even after some of the more formal and high-flown speeches. But
we're getting ahead of our chapter. 8-)
Barbara

>
> T.
>
>


Hashemon Urtasman

unread,
Jul 7, 2004, 7:45:05 PM7/7/04
to

Today they had a story about some restaurant offering a free meal for
anybody descended from Genghis Khan, at the Prancing (err, the Shish)
restaurant.

While watching TV footage of the Saddam trial, I noticed he too had some
Mongolian type features, probably not uncommon in Iraq given the Mongols
brief rule over that country 1,000 years ago. You never know.

About 16 million people in Asia are descended from GK. Although the
same number of people might claim to be descended from Alexander the
Great also, even though he had no surviving offspring (they were put to
death AFAIK.) Might as well be descended from the Sun itself, or Zeus,
or Apollo for all that matters.

Hasan

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-genghis-khans-kin,0,6562163.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines

DNA Test to Check for Genghis Khan Kin


By JILL LAWLESS
Associated Press Writer

July 6, 2004, 3:26 PM EDT

LONDON -- A London restaurant is offering diners the chance to learn
whether they are descended from the rampaging Mongol ruler Genghis Khan
-- and win a free meal if they are.

The promotion by the restaurant Shish has proved surprisingly popular,
exemplifying how Genghis Khan, once reviled in the West as a tyrant, has
gained new respect in his own country and among academics.

"We've had Mongolian people who've traveled across London to give us
their details," said Hugo Malik, bar manager of Shish, which is giving
away one DNA test at each of its two London branches every day through
Friday.

"They said, 'Grandad always used to tell us we were descended from
Genghis Khan.'"

Grandad may have been right. Oxford Ancestors, the firm doing the
testing, says as many as 17 million men in Central Asia share a pattern
of Y chromosomes within their genetic sequences, indicating a common
ancestor.

Since Genghis Khan conquered vast tracts of Asia and Europe in the 12th
and 13th centuries and sired many offspring, it was assumed that the men
share his genetic fingerprint.

"He was an all-conquering tribal leader," said David Ashworth, a
geneticist and chief executive of Oxford Ancestors. "He took their
cities, he took their land, he took their women."

Because there are no known tissue samples from Genghis Khan, the genetic
tests are based on an assessment of probabilities.

The tests are part of the burgeoning field of bioarchaeology, which uses
biological techniques to learn about ancient ancestors. Oxford
Ancestors, founded four years ago by Oxford University geneticist Bryan
Sykes, offers DNA testing to people seeking to trace their genetic roots.

Sykes believes DNA testing can map humanity's common ancestry. In 1994,
he extracted genetic samples from the Iceman, a frozen 5,000-year-old
corpse found in the Tyrolean Alps, and identified a woman in Britain as
his descendant.

Sykes' 2001 book, "The Seven Daughters of Eve," claimed that 95 percent
of Europeans were descended from seven tribal matriarchs -- he dubbed
them Ursula, Xenia, Helena, Velda, Tara, Katrine and Jasmine -- who
lived between 10,000 and 45,000 years ago.

For $330, Oxford Ancestors will tell customers which maternal clan they
belong to. The Genghis Khan test is part of a plan to do the same for
paternal ancestry by mapping patterns of Y chromosomes, the genetic
material handed down from fathers to sons that changes little over
generations.

Women have two X chromosomes, while men carry one X chromosome and one Y
-- so only men can take the Genghis Khan test.

"At certain markers on the Y chromosome, if it matches the Genghis Khan
pattern, then on the balance of probability you are descended from the
Great Khan," Ashworth said.

Shish, which specializes in grilled kebabs, said it was offering the
tests to honor Mongolia's decision to reintroduce surnames.

In the 1990s, Mongolia's democratic government decided to reverse a
70-year-old policy that banned surnames in hopes of breaking the power
of feudal clans. By June 30, more than half the population had chosen
the name Borjigin, or Master of the Blue Wolf -- Genghis Khan's clan name.

It was the latest step in the rehabilitation of the Mongol ruler.

Reviled in the West as a bloodthirsty conqueror and condemned in
communist Mongolia as a symbol of a backward past, Genghis Khan is now
celebrated by Mongolians as the father of their nation.

Many Western academics also have reassessed his legacy, recasting him as
a brilliant military tactician, innovative ruler and early globalizer
whose empire, at one point stretching from the Sea of Japan to the
Danube, saw an unprecedented mingling of goods and cultures.

Genghis Khan's descendants should "feel a sense of pride that they are
descended from such a successful leader of men," Ashworth said.

"These ancient conquerors lived in a very different world to us, and
where they got was because of their own hard work. We can't really judge
them morally."

* __

On the Net:

Shish: www.shish.com

Oxford Ancestors: www.oxfordancestors.com

Copyright © 2004, The Associated Press

Emma Pease

unread,
Jul 7, 2004, 11:47:10 PM7/7/04
to
In article <as4le0t1hbp5fkemu...@4ax.com>, Belba Grubb
from Stock wrote:
> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
>
>
> To check out the other Chapters of the Week or to sign up to do a
> chapter of your own, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org. Anybody
> signed up for Chapter 3 yet?
> _____________________
[snip]

> They exchange news, with the Hunters
> learning that Rohan is not at open war yet with Sauron and there is
> division among the Rohirrim about whether Rohan should aid Gondor if
> summoned; Eomer also hints to Aragorn that there is trouble in the
> halls of Theoden King; they also find out that Saruman has claimed
> lordship over the land and there has been war with him for several
> months, including an ongoing battle right now in the Westemnet.
> Saruman has Orcs, Wolf-riders and evil Men in his service. Eomer's
> charge is the Eastemnet, and when he heard of them, Eomer pursued the
> Orcs without the king's leave, fearing a league between Saruman and
> Sauron. He caught up with the Orc band at the edge of Fangorn Forest
> and destroyed them all.

> Well, that's just some of the stuff I saw here. Comments, additions…?

I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did
Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?

In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but Grima's word
is not to be trusted. However

Feb. 25
- Theodred killed in the evening

Feb 27
- previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
- noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished Tales)
- midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight 27/28)

Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed the
news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't know how he
could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan desperately needs troops
westward. Indeed if he had known, I don't know why he would not have
told Aragorn when trying to persuade him to return with him.
Unfinished Tales does mention that the third marshal's homebase is not
Edoras but at Aldburg in the Eastfold. Here
follows speculation.

1. Eomer is at Aldburg not Edoras when he receives news of the Orc
party and fearing has he said a linkup between Saruman and Sauron
wants to destroy them (aside, Eomer doesn't know that Saruman and
Sauron have a much more reliable method of communicating).

2. Eomer sends a message to Edoras and asks permission to pursue

3. This news arrives at Edora about the same time the news of
Theodred's death. Grima does not permit the news of Theodred's death
to get to Aldburg but Theoden doesn't know that Eomer hasn't been
told.

4. Grima not knowing the importance of the orc party decides to goad
Eomer into pursuing it by (a) having Theoden forbid it and (b) not
passing on the full news of what has happened at the Isen to Eomer
which would probably cause Eomer to insist on going west instead.
Grima is probably hoping that once Eomer returns the set of
circumstances will cause Theoden to throw Eomer into prison (which did
happen) and further hamstring the defense.

comments?

Shanahan

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 3:08:25 AM7/8/04
to
In news:slrncepgt...@munin.Stanford.EDU,
Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> opined:

> In article <as4le0t1hbp5fkemu...@4ax.com>, Belba
> Grubb from Stock wrote:
>> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
>> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
<snip>

> I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did
> Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?
> In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but
> Grima's word is not to be trusted. However
> Feb. 25
> - Theodred killed in the evening
> Feb 27
> - previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
> - noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished
> Tales)
> - midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight
> 27/28)
>
> Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed
> the news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't
> know how he could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan
> desperately needs troops westward. Indeed if he had known, I

I can't recall the reference, but I believe Eomer was at Edoras,
and was indeed forbidden to chase the orc-troop. That's why he is
arrested when he returns to Edoras after killing the orcs and
meeting the Three Hunters. Eomer, however, fears that Saruman will
join forces with Sauron, and so he believes it's crucially
important to break this troop of orcs. He leads out his own men,
men who owe their allegiance directly to him and who are willing to
follow him even against the King's wishes (via Wormtongue), his
eored. I think this is in the Appendices to LotR?

Ciaran S.
--
"To sum up: your father, whom you love, dies;
you are his heir, you come back to find that
hardly was the corpse cold before his younger brother
popped onto his throne and into his sheets,
thereby offending both legal and natural practice.
Now *why exactly* are you behaving in this extraordinary manner?"
- t.stoppard

Yuk Tang

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 1:53:55 AM7/8/04
to
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in news:f2
_Gc.700$aH3.6...@news-text.cableinet.net:

> Taemon <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
>
>> Well, it isn't only Aragorn. Speech is getting more formal by
>> everyone further on in the book. I miss the humour.
>
> I _like_ the formal speech. But then I like 'The Silmarillion'.
> Anyway, LotR does have a high, noble and tragic tale to tell.
> Humour has its place in LotR, but I am glad it is used sparingly.
> Unlike in a certain film...

Airplane?


--
Cheers, ymt.

Henriette

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 2:11:35 PM7/8/04
to
Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message news:<as4le0t1hbp5fkemu...@4ax.com>...

> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
>
> To check out the other Chapters of the Week or to sign up to do a
> chapter of your own, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org. Anybody
> signed up for Chapter 3 yet?

No. Anyone?

Thank you Grub, great job!
(snip)


> at the
> furthest point of the hobbit tracks away from the trail he finds the
> brooch of an Elven cloak.

The brooch is described as having the shape of the leaf of a
beech-tree. In the film it has the shape of an *ivy*-leaf. (she said
accusingly).

Henriette

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 3:48:50 PM7/8/04
to
Shanahan <pog...@bluefrog.com> wrote:
> Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> opined:

>>> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
>>> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
> <snip>
>> I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did
>> Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?
>> In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but
>> Grima's word is not to be trusted. However
>> Feb. 25
>> - Theodred killed in the evening
>> Feb 27
>> - previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
>> - noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished
>> Tales)
>> - midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight
>> 27/28)
>>
>> Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed
>> the news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't
>> know how he could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan
>> desperately needs troops westward. Indeed if he had known, I
>
> I can't recall the reference, but I believe Eomer was at Edoras,

ToY (Appendix B) entry for 27 February 3019 says that Eomer set out from
"Eastfold". No mention of Edoras. However, the entry for 30 February
(they really _do_ use a different calendar...) talks about Eomer
"returning to Edoras", which might imply that he set out from there.

I would agree with the thought that Eomer did not know about the death
of Theodred and the outcome of the First Battle of the Fords of Isen.
Maybe this is mentioned later in the book at Edoras?

Jim Deutch

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 4:46:49 PM7/8/04
to

But in ME, having the blood of ancient heroes actually *means*
something, unlike RL (where about the only thing it could mean is that
you've inherited some genetic quirks or defects). In ME, inherent
power is passed down the line of inheritence, not just things like
blue eyes and haemophilia...

Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
"We should admire his good fortune, passing on at the peak of his
wisdom and perishing for a cause in which he believed (suppression of
stem cell research)." -- Bruce Feist (on Reagan's death)

Shanahan

unread,
Jul 9, 2004, 2:42:47 AM7/9/04
to
> In article <as4le0t1hbp5fkemu...@4ax.com>, Belba
> Grubb from Stock wrote:
>> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
>> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
<snip>

As Christopher says in another post here, the Tale of Years has
Eomer leaving the "Eastfold", which fits with your speculation.

> 2. Eomer sends a message to Edoras and asks permission to pursue
> 3. This news arrives at Edora about the same time the news of
> Theodred's death. Grima does not permit the news of Theodred's
> death to get to Aldburg but Theoden doesn't know that Eomer
> hasn't been told.
> 4. Grima not knowing the importance of the orc party decides to

This is the only part that I have trouble with. Otherwise, I
really like your idea. One thing it does for me, is it allows for
Eomer to gather his eored and set off after the Orcs in record
time. If Eomer was at Edoras, as I thought at first, then it would
have taken him much longer to get to the Eastfold and round them
up.

But even if Grima has no idea of the importance of this party of
orcs, I still don't think he's got the wrinklies to interfere that
much in something Saruman was doing. He must know that these are
Saruman's orcs, yes? In fact, if Eomer knows that they are both
Isengard and Mordor orcs, then Grima probably knows that too.
Would he be courageous or desperate enough to interfere with both
his master *and* Sauron?

Ciaran S.
--
The Wave Mag: Do you read Gandalf slash?
Ian McKellen: Well, I'm quite a fan of pornography.
I think it's a very good idea. I think it stops
people from going out and hurting each other.
TW: What shocks you?
IM: Newspapers are full of it.

Nolan

unread,
Jul 9, 2004, 12:29:20 PM7/9/04
to
"Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote in message news:<2l09r4F...@uni-berlin.de>...

Yeah, he can come across that way. One of the big differences I saw in
the film character of Aragorn was that the book character didn't have
the doubt about his destiny that was portrayed in the film - he had
doubts sometimes about exactly what he needed to do, but he was never
in question about his own role. Right from the first time we meet him,
IIRC, he comments about the Sword - "The time is coming when it shall
be forged again" or words to that effect. I guess the doubt-plagued
Aragorn was a more interesting film character, but the original was
sure of himself to the point of arrogance.

To hark back to a previous chapter, that may also be a reason that he
could endure Galadrial's gaze - his heart's desire was no secret - to
destroy Sauron, assume his rightful role as King of Gondor, and wed
Arwen.

Nolan

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Jul 9, 2004, 6:29:51 PM7/9/04
to
in <slrncepgt...@munin.Stanford.EDU>,
Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did
> Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?

Good question.

> In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but Grima's word
> is not to be trusted. However
>
> Feb. 25
> - Theodred killed in the evening

The date is also in the Tale of Years (ToY).

Feb 26
- The ToY has, "Éomer hears of the descent of the Orc-band from the
Emyn Muil."

> Feb 27
> - previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
> - noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished
> Tales)
> - midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight
> 27/28)

ToY: "Éomer against Théoden's orders sets out from Eastfold about
midnight to pursue the Orcs."

With the two ToY entries in mind, my impression is that Éomer and his
éored took off 'about midnight' the 26th/27th. Leaving about midnight
certainly suggests to me a great deal of haste, and since he went off
with his personal éored he didn't have to wait to get riders coming in
from far away: they were all there with him. Spending a few hours packing
and gathering the men from the town (Edoras) and then leaving in a haste
shortly after midnight makes sense to me -- spending more than a day
debating, packing and rounding up the riders and then leaving in a haste
in the middle of the night seems less sensible (I know - perfectly
reasonable explanations could be devised, but I still think they would be
less sensible than Éomer and his éored leaving as quickly as possible --
just a few hours after learning about the Orcs, and /before/ they learn
of Théodred's death).

> Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed the
> news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't know how he
> could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan desperately needs troops
> westward.

Agreed. Especially as UT tells us that Erkenbrand's message that told of
the death of Théodred also contained Erkenbrand's "own prayer that Éomer
should be sent at once with all help that could be spared." Apart from
Théodred's last words, "Let me lie here -- to keep the Fords till Eomer
comes!".

I can't imagine Éomer going off to chase a company of Orcs after having
received such a message.

> Indeed if he had known, I don't know why he would not have told Aragorn
> when trying to persuade him to return with him.

That too.

> Unfinished Tales does mention that the third marshal's homebase is not
> Edoras but at Aldburg in the Eastfold. Here follows speculation.

I'd better quote part of the appendix:
[UT 3,V,App (i) 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen']
" In times of war or unquiet each Marshal of the Mark had
under his immediate orders, as part of his 'household' (that
is, quartered under arms at his residence) an éored ready for
battle which he could use in an emergency at his own
discretion. This was what Éomer had in fact done;* but the
charge against him, urged by Gríma, was that the King had in
this case forbidden him to take any of the still uncommitted
forces of the East-mark from Edoras, which was insufficiently
defended; that he knew of the disaster of the Fords of Isen
and the death of Théodred before he pursued the Orcs into the
remote Wold; and that he had also against general orders
allowed strangers to go free, and had even lent them horses."
* "I.e., when Éomer pursued the Orcs, captors of Meriadoc and
Peregrin, who had come down into Rohan from the Emyn Muil. The
words that Éomer used to Aragorn were: 'I led forth my éored,
men of my own household' (The Two Towers III 2)."


> 1. Eomer is at Aldburg not Edoras when he receives news of the Orc
> party and fearing has he said a linkup between Saruman and Sauron
> wants to destroy them (aside, Eomer doesn't know that Saruman and
> Sauron have a much more reliable method of communicating).

There is, IMO, no doubt that Wormtongue's accusations were false, and it
is not unlikely that he was indeed at Aldburg (the passage mentions
specifically that his éored was "quartered under arms at his residence").

Éomer and his éored might, of course, have been at Edoras, making
Wormtongue's accusations at least partly true (a better mix when making
false accusations). I don't think it matters, though -- as I said above,
I think he left a day earlier than you suggest, putting him and his éored
on their horses about twelve hours before the arrival of Erkenbrand's
message in Edoras.

<snip>

--
Troels Forchhammer

The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the same level of
thinking with which we created them.
- Albert Einstein

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Jul 9, 2004, 6:36:39 PM7/9/04
to
in <slrncepgt...@munin.Stanford.EDU>,
Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did


> Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?

Good question.

> In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but Grima's word
> is not to be trusted. However
>
> Feb. 25
> - Theodred killed in the evening

The date is also in the Tale of Years (ToY).

Feb 26
- The ToY has, "Éomer hears of the descent of the Orc-band from the
Emyn Muil."

> Feb 27


> - previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
> - noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished
> Tales)
> - midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight
> 27/28)

ToY: "Éomer against Théoden's orders sets out from Eastfold about


midnight to pursue the Orcs."

With the two ToY entries in mind, my impression is that Éomer and his
éored took off 'about midnight' the 26th/27th. Leaving about midnight
certainly suggests to me a great deal of haste, and since he went off
with his personal éored he didn't have to wait to get riders coming in
from far away: they were all there with him. Spending a few hours packing
and gathering the men from the town (Edoras) and then leaving in a haste
shortly after midnight makes sense to me -- spending more than a day
debating, packing and rounding up the riders and then leaving in a haste
in the middle of the night seems less sensible (I know - perfectly
reasonable explanations could be devised, but I still think they would be
less sensible than Éomer and his éored leaving as quickly as possible --
just a few hours after learning about the Orcs, and /before/ they learn
of Théodred's death).

> Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed the


> news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't know how he
> could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan desperately needs troops
> westward.

Agreed. Especially as UT tells us that Erkenbrand's message that told of


the death of Théodred also contained Erkenbrand's "own prayer that Éomer
should be sent at once with all help that could be spared." Apart from
Théodred's last words, "Let me lie here -- to keep the Fords till Eomer
comes!".

I can't imagine Éomer going off to chase a company of Orcs after having
received such a message.

> Indeed if he had known, I don't know why he would not have told Aragorn


> when trying to persuade him to return with him.

That too.

> Unfinished Tales does mention that the third marshal's homebase is not
> Edoras but at Aldburg in the Eastfold. Here follows speculation.

I'd better quote part of the appendix:


[UT 3,V,App (i) 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen']
" In times of war or unquiet each Marshal of the Mark had
under his immediate orders, as part of his 'household' (that
is, quartered under arms at his residence) an éored ready for
battle which he could use in an emergency at his own
discretion. This was what Éomer had in fact done;* but the
charge against him, urged by Gríma, was that the King had in
this case forbidden him to take any of the still uncommitted
forces of the East-mark from Edoras, which was insufficiently
defended; that he knew of the disaster of the Fords of Isen
and the death of Théodred before he pursued the Orcs into the
remote Wold; and that he had also against general orders
allowed strangers to go free, and had even lent them horses."
* "I.e., when Éomer pursued the Orcs, captors of Meriadoc and
Peregrin, who had come down into Rohan from the Emyn Muil. The
words that Éomer used to Aragorn were: 'I led forth my éored,
men of my own household' (The Two Towers III 2)."

> 1. Eomer is at Aldburg not Edoras when he receives news of the Orc
> party and fearing has he said a linkup between Saruman and Sauron
> wants to destroy them (aside, Eomer doesn't know that Saruman and
> Sauron have a much more reliable method of communicating).

There is, IMO, no doubt that Wormtongue's accusations were false, and it


is not unlikely that he was indeed at Aldburg (the passage mentions
specifically that his éored was "quartered under arms at his residence").

> 2. Eomer sends a message to Edoras and asks permission to pursue


>
> 3. This news arrives at Edora about the same time the news of
> Theodred's death. Grima does not permit the news of Theodred's death
> to get to Aldburg but Theoden doesn't know that Eomer hasn't been
> told.
>
> 4. Grima not knowing the importance of the orc party decides to goad
> Eomer into pursuing it by (a) having Theoden forbid it and (b) not
> passing on the full news of what has happened at the Isen to Eomer
> which would probably cause Eomer to insist on going west instead.
> Grima is probably hoping that once Eomer returns the set of
> circumstances will cause Theoden to throw Eomer into prison (which did
> happen) and further hamstring the defense.
>
> comments?
>
>

>> \* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
>> _\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht

--

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Jul 9, 2004, 6:36:48 PM7/9/04
to
in <slrncepgt...@munin.Stanford.EDU>,
Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did


> Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?

Good question.

> In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but Grima's word
> is not to be trusted. However
>
> Feb. 25
> - Theodred killed in the evening

The date is also in the Tale of Years (ToY).

Feb 26
- The ToY has, "Éomer hears of the descent of the Orc-band from the
Emyn Muil."

> Feb 27


> - previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
> - noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished
> Tales)
> - midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight
> 27/28)

ToY: "Éomer against Théoden's orders sets out from Eastfold about


midnight to pursue the Orcs."

With the two ToY entries in mind, my impression is that Éomer and his
éored took off 'about midnight' the 26th/27th. Leaving about midnight
certainly suggests to me a great deal of haste, and since he went off
with his personal éored he didn't have to wait to get riders coming in
from far away: they were all there with him. Spending a few hours packing
and gathering the men from the town (Edoras) and then leaving in a haste
shortly after midnight makes sense to me -- spending more than a day
debating, packing and rounding up the riders and then leaving in a haste
in the middle of the night seems less sensible (I know - perfectly
reasonable explanations could be devised, but I still think they would be
less sensible than Éomer and his éored leaving as quickly as possible --
just a few hours after learning about the Orcs, and /before/ they learn
of Théodred's death).

> Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed the


> news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't know how he
> could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan desperately needs troops
> westward.

Agreed. Especially as UT tells us that Erkenbrand's message that told of


the death of Théodred also contained Erkenbrand's "own prayer that Éomer
should be sent at once with all help that could be spared." Apart from
Théodred's last words, "Let me lie here -- to keep the Fords till Eomer
comes!".

I can't imagine Éomer going off to chase a company of Orcs after having
received such a message.

> Indeed if he had known, I don't know why he would not have told Aragorn


> when trying to persuade him to return with him.

That too.

> Unfinished Tales does mention that the third marshal's homebase is not
> Edoras but at Aldburg in the Eastfold. Here follows speculation.

I'd better quote part of the appendix:


[UT 3,V,App (i) 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen']
" In times of war or unquiet each Marshal of the Mark had
under his immediate orders, as part of his 'household' (that
is, quartered under arms at his residence) an éored ready for
battle which he could use in an emergency at his own
discretion. This was what Éomer had in fact done;* but the
charge against him, urged by Gríma, was that the King had in
this case forbidden him to take any of the still uncommitted
forces of the East-mark from Edoras, which was insufficiently
defended; that he knew of the disaster of the Fords of Isen
and the death of Théodred before he pursued the Orcs into the
remote Wold; and that he had also against general orders
allowed strangers to go free, and had even lent them horses."
* "I.e., when Éomer pursued the Orcs, captors of Meriadoc and
Peregrin, who had come down into Rohan from the Emyn Muil. The
words that Éomer used to Aragorn were: 'I led forth my éored,
men of my own household' (The Two Towers III 2)."

> 1. Eomer is at Aldburg not Edoras when he receives news of the Orc
> party and fearing has he said a linkup between Saruman and Sauron
> wants to destroy them (aside, Eomer doesn't know that Saruman and
> Sauron have a much more reliable method of communicating).

There is, IMO, no doubt that Wormtongue's accusations were false, and it


is not unlikely that he was indeed at Aldburg (the passage mentions
specifically that his éored was "quartered under arms at his residence").

> 2. Eomer sends a message to Edoras and asks permission to pursue


>
> 3. This news arrives at Edora about the same time the news of
> Theodred's death. Grima does not permit the news of Theodred's death
> to get to Aldburg but Theoden doesn't know that Eomer hasn't been
> told.
>
> 4. Grima not knowing the importance of the orc party decides to goad
> Eomer into pursuing it by (a) having Theoden forbid it and (b) not
> passing on the full news of what has happened at the Isen to Eomer
> which would probably cause Eomer to insist on going west instead.
> Grima is probably hoping that once Eomer returns the set of
> circumstances will cause Theoden to throw Eomer into prison (which did
> happen) and further hamstring the defense.
>
> comments?
>
>

>> \* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
>> _\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht

--

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Jul 9, 2004, 6:37:13 PM7/9/04
to
in <slrncepgt...@munin.Stanford.EDU>,
Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did


> Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?

Good question.

> In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but Grima's word
> is not to be trusted. However
>
> Feb. 25
> - Theodred killed in the evening

The date is also in the Tale of Years (ToY).

Feb 26
- The ToY has, "Éomer hears of the descent of the Orc-band from the
Emyn Muil."

> Feb 27


> - previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
> - noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished
> Tales)
> - midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight
> 27/28)

ToY: "Éomer against Théoden's orders sets out from Eastfold about


midnight to pursue the Orcs."

With the two ToY entries in mind, my impression is that Éomer and his
éored took off 'about midnight' the 26th/27th. Leaving about midnight
certainly suggests to me a great deal of haste, and since he went off
with his personal éored he didn't have to wait to get riders coming in
from far away: they were all there with him. Spending a few hours packing
and gathering the men from the town (Edoras) and then leaving in a haste
shortly after midnight makes sense to me -- spending more than a day
debating, packing and rounding up the riders and then leaving in a haste
in the middle of the night seems less sensible (I know - perfectly
reasonable explanations could be devised, but I still think they would be
less sensible than Éomer and his éored leaving as quickly as possible --
just a few hours after learning about the Orcs, and /before/ they learn
of Théodred's death).

> Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed the


> news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't know how he
> could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan desperately needs troops
> westward.

Agreed. Especially as UT tells us that Erkenbrand's message that told of


the death of Théodred also contained Erkenbrand's "own prayer that Éomer
should be sent at once with all help that could be spared." Apart from
Théodred's last words, "Let me lie here -- to keep the Fords till Eomer
comes!".

I can't imagine Éomer going off to chase a company of Orcs after having
received such a message.

> Indeed if he had known, I don't know why he would not have told Aragorn


> when trying to persuade him to return with him.

That too.

> Unfinished Tales does mention that the third marshal's homebase is not
> Edoras but at Aldburg in the Eastfold. Here follows speculation.

I'd better quote part of the appendix:


[UT 3,V,App (i) 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen']
" In times of war or unquiet each Marshal of the Mark had
under his immediate orders, as part of his 'household' (that
is, quartered under arms at his residence) an éored ready for
battle which he could use in an emergency at his own
discretion. This was what Éomer had in fact done;* but the
charge against him, urged by Gríma, was that the King had in
this case forbidden him to take any of the still uncommitted
forces of the East-mark from Edoras, which was insufficiently
defended; that he knew of the disaster of the Fords of Isen
and the death of Théodred before he pursued the Orcs into the
remote Wold; and that he had also against general orders
allowed strangers to go free, and had even lent them horses."
* "I.e., when Éomer pursued the Orcs, captors of Meriadoc and
Peregrin, who had come down into Rohan from the Emyn Muil. The
words that Éomer used to Aragorn were: 'I led forth my éored,
men of my own household' (The Two Towers III 2)."

> 1. Eomer is at Aldburg not Edoras when he receives news of the Orc
> party and fearing has he said a linkup between Saruman and Sauron
> wants to destroy them (aside, Eomer doesn't know that Saruman and
> Sauron have a much more reliable method of communicating).

There is, IMO, no doubt that Wormtongue's accusations were false, and it


is not unlikely that he was indeed at Aldburg (the passage mentions
specifically that his éored was "quartered under arms at his residence").

> 2. Eomer sends a message to Edoras and asks permission to pursue


>
> 3. This news arrives at Edora about the same time the news of
> Theodred's death. Grima does not permit the news of Theodred's death
> to get to Aldburg but Theoden doesn't know that Eomer hasn't been
> told.
>
> 4. Grima not knowing the importance of the orc party decides to goad
> Eomer into pursuing it by (a) having Theoden forbid it and (b) not
> passing on the full news of what has happened at the Isen to Eomer
> which would probably cause Eomer to insist on going west instead.
> Grima is probably hoping that once Eomer returns the set of
> circumstances will cause Theoden to throw Eomer into prison (which did
> happen) and further hamstring the defense.
>
> comments?
>
>

>> \* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
>> _\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht

--

Troels Forchhammer

unread,
Jul 9, 2004, 6:40:26 PM7/9/04
to
in <t6FHc.20576$k4.4...@news1.nokia.com>,
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> posted for the fourth
time:
>


Quadruple postings :-(

I am /very/ sorry about this -- my newsreader claimed that the post had
not been sent, three times in a row.

I apologise for the inconvenience.

--
Troels Forchhammer

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to
(a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks.
- (Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites)

Henriette

unread,
Jul 10, 2004, 1:16:53 AM7/10/04
to
"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message news:<u9FHc.20577$k4.4...@news1.nokia.com>...

> in <t6FHc.20576$k4.4...@news1.nokia.com>,
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> posted for the fourth
> time:
>
> Quadruple postings :-(
>
> I am /very/ sorry about this -- my newsreader claimed that the post had
> not been sent, three times in a row.
> (snip)

Don't worry Troels, many of us have experienced this at one time or
another. Although with *four* times in a row..... you could try for
the Guiness Book of Records:-)

Henriette

Emma Pease

unread,
Jul 10, 2004, 2:25:59 PM7/10/04
to
In article <z%EHc.20573$k4.4...@news1.nokia.com>, Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> in <slrncepgt...@munin.Stanford.EDU>,
> Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> enriched us with:
>>
>
><snip>
>
>> I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did
>> Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?
>
> Good question.
>
>> In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but Grima's word
>> is not to be trusted. However
>>
>> Feb. 25
>> - Theodred killed in the evening
>
> The date is also in the Tale of Years (ToY).
>
> Feb 26
> - The ToY has, "Eomer hears of the descent of the Orc-band from the

> Emyn Muil."
>
>> Feb 27
>> - previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
>> - noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished
>> Tales)
>> - midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight
>> 27/28)
>
> ToY: "Eomer against Theoden's orders sets out from Eastfold about

> midnight to pursue the Orcs."
>
> With the two ToY entries in mind, my impression is that Eomer and his
> eored took off 'about midnight' the 26th/27th. Leaving about midnight

> certainly suggests to me a great deal of haste, and since he went off
> with his personal eored he didn't have to wait to get riders coming in

> from far away: they were all there with him. Spending a few hours packing
> and gathering the men from the town (Edoras) and then leaving in a haste
> shortly after midnight makes sense to me -- spending more than a day
> debating, packing and rounding up the riders and then leaving in a haste
> in the middle of the night seems less sensible (I know - perfectly
> reasonable explanations could be devised, but I still think they would be
> less sensible than Eomer and his eored leaving as quickly as possible --

> just a few hours after learning about the Orcs, and /before/ they learn
> of Theodred's death).

I'm wondering also about timing. If he left at midnight on the 26/27
then it took him about 42 hours to trap the orcs at the edge of
Fangorn (evening of the 28th). If he left at midnight on the 27/28,
then it took about 18 hours. They spent the 29th defeating the orcs,
burning them, and burying their dead. On the 30th they headed back to
Edoras.

I would assume he went as fast as possible and on an intercept line
with the orcs so it should take him approximately the same amount of
time to return to Aldburg or Edoras (or a bit longer since they aren't
in a full out chase and probably camped at night). Note that the
eored does not seem to have caught up to the orcs until the orcs were
near the Entwash and that Aragorn and party saw no traces of the
horsemen until then either.

So when did Eomer get to Edoras? If he took 42 hours to get back,
then he should have arrived about midnight of the 1/2 at the earliest.
It would make more sense I would think for him to have camped the
night and shown up on the morning of the 2nd. Note this is the same
time as Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli arrive but I get the
feeling Eomer had been in prison for at least a few hours. If he took
18 hours, then he arrived sometime on the 1st.

For comparison, Gandalf's party took about 18-20 hours to get to
Edoras. Note that Shadowfax could have gone faster but would have
been limited by the speed of Arod and Hasufel.

Something doesn't seem right.


>> Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed the
>> news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't know how he
>> could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan desperately needs troops
>> westward.
>
> Agreed. Especially as UT tells us that Erkenbrand's message that told of

> the death of Theodred also contained Erkenbrand's "own prayer that Eomer


> should be sent at once with all help that could be spared." Apart from

> Theodred's last words, "Let me lie here -- to keep the Fords till Eomer
> comes!".
>
> I can't imagine Eomer going off to chase a company of Orcs after having


> received such a message.
>
>> Indeed if he had known, I don't know why he would not have told Aragorn
>> when trying to persuade him to return with him.
>
> That too.
>
>> Unfinished Tales does mention that the third marshal's homebase is not
>> Edoras but at Aldburg in the Eastfold. Here follows speculation.
>
> I'd better quote part of the appendix:
> [UT 3,V,App (i) 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen']
> " In times of war or unquiet each Marshal of the Mark had
> under his immediate orders, as part of his 'household' (that

> is, quartered under arms at his residence) an eored ready for


> battle which he could use in an emergency at his own

> discretion. This was what Eomer had in fact done;* but the


> charge against him, urged by Gríma, was that the King had in
> this case forbidden him to take any of the still uncommitted
> forces of the East-mark from Edoras, which was insufficiently
> defended; that he knew of the disaster of the Fords of Isen

> and the death of Theodred before he pursued the Orcs into the


> remote Wold; and that he had also against general orders
> allowed strangers to go free, and had even lent them horses."

> * "I.e., when Eomer pursued the Orcs, captors of Meriadoc and


> Peregrin, who had come down into Rohan from the Emyn Muil. The

> words that Eomer used to Aragorn were: 'I led forth my eored,


> men of my own household' (The Two Towers III 2)."
>
>
>> 1. Eomer is at Aldburg not Edoras when he receives news of the Orc
>> party and fearing has he said a linkup between Saruman and Sauron
>> wants to destroy them (aside, Eomer doesn't know that Saruman and
>> Sauron have a much more reliable method of communicating).
>
> There is, IMO, no doubt that Wormtongue's accusations were false, and it
> is not unlikely that he was indeed at Aldburg (the passage mentions

> specifically that his eored was "quartered under arms at his residence").
>
> Eomer and his eored might, of course, have been at Edoras, making


> Wormtongue's accusations at least partly true (a better mix when making
> false accusations). I don't think it matters, though -- as I said above,

> I think he left a day earlier than you suggest, putting him and his eored


> on their horses about twelve hours before the arrival of Erkenbrand's
> message in Edoras.
>
><snip>
>


--

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Jul 11, 2004, 12:59:20 PM7/11/04
to
Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:

[about Eomer's pursuit of the orcs]

> I'm wondering also about timing. If he left at midnight on the 26/27
> then it took him about 42 hours to trap the orcs at the edge of
> Fangorn (evening of the 28th).

You'd expect this to take longer than the return journey. Eastfold is
further from Fangorn Forest than Edoras. They had to find the orcs
first. When they return, they know where they are going, so the journey
is quicker. OTOH, as you say, there was more urgency about the outward
journey. The return journey would not necessarily have been that much
slower, though they, presumably, did not knew the outcome of the (first)
Battle of the Fords of Isen, and suspected that other foes might be
threatening the settlements of Westfold, Edoras and Eastfold (all along
the White Mountains in the south of Rohan).

> If he left at midnight on the 27/28,

From Eastfold.

> then it took about 18 hours.

This is the position to take if you think Edoras and Eastfold are close
enough to make little difference in the riding time. ToY is unclear
which midnight is meant.

> They spent the 29th defeating the orcs,
> burning them, and burying their dead. On the 30th they headed back to
> Edoras.

<snip>

> Note that the
> eored does not seem to have caught up to the orcs until the orcs were
> near the Entwash and that Aragorn and party saw no traces of the
> horsemen until then either.

But Aragorn did hear horses through the ground. If you look up when this
is, and where they are, that might give some indication of where Eomer's
eored might have been.

> So when did Eomer get to Edoras? If he took 42 hours to get back,
> then he should have arrived about midnight of the 1/2 at the earliest.
> It would make more sense I would think for him to have camped the
> night and shown up on the morning of the 2nd. Note this is the same
> time as Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli arrive but I get the
> feeling Eomer had been in prison for at least a few hours. If he took
> 18 hours, then he arrived sometime on the 1st.

This 18-hour journey makes sense.

> For comparison, Gandalf's party took about 18-20 hours to get to
> Edoras. Note that Shadowfax could have gone faster but would have
> been limited by the speed of Arod and Hasufel.
>
> Something doesn't seem right.

Gandalf's party takes 18-20 hours to reach Edoras.
Eomer also takes 18 or so hours to reach Edoras.

Eomer's outward journey takes either 42 hours or 18 hours, depending on
how you interpret the 'midnight' reference in ToY, and whether you think
that finding the orcs took time, and whether you think Edoras and
Eastfold are far enough apart to make a difference in the riding time
from Fangorn Forest.

I'd go for the midnight of the 27/28.

Troels Forchhammer

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Jul 13, 2004, 5:32:17 AM7/13/04
to
in <IleIc.868$Ff6.11...@news-text.cableinet.net>,
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> I'd go for the midnight of the 27/28.

I'm finding your arguments compelling -- that would, IMO, mean that he
set out from Aldburg and not from Edoras.

Belba Grubb from Stock

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Jul 16, 2004, 5:08:05 PM7/16/04
to
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 21:45:25 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>.

>...wasn't really sleeping, just resting his mind.

Christopher, that is a classic for use in many different situations.
Thanks!

Barb
_____
Believing is seeing.
-- Anonymous geologist
_____

Igenlode Wordsmith

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Jul 16, 2004, 7:48:08 PM7/16/04
to
On 6 Jul 2004 Belba Grubb from Stock wrote:

> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
>

[snip]
> As dawn comes
> Aragorn sees the White Mountains of Gondor in the South and wonders
> out loud, "Shall Men behold the Silver Tree."

When he speaks of the West Wind, do we take it that his meaning is
metaphorical (Numenor - Eldamar?) After all, the West Wind has already
blown in Gondor during the course of his *previous* song :-)


[snip]

> Legolas: He really comes alive here in many ways.

One gets the impression that the two mortals (Man and Dwarf) were
holding him back unnecessarily - could he have continued on alone, and
perhaps caught up with the Orcs? Would he have been able to broker an
escape, if he could have got in contact with the hobbits unseen?

Why haven't we heard anything about Elves apparently not sleeping at
night before, e.g. when Pippin is keeping night-watch in Moria? Has
no-one in the Fellowship really ever noticed?


[snip]

> The Orcs: We really get a better picture of them by looking at the
> things they throw away.

I was a bit puzzled by the single broken shoe - how would a shoe break,
and how did the Orc run on without it? (Lopsidedly, presumably.)

[snip]

> Well, that's just some of the stuff I saw here. Comments, additions…?
>

When Boromir said that he 'lost his horse' at Tharbad, I always assumed
he meant that it was killed, or was drowned in the crossing of the
river. Apparently, though, he really did 'lose' it - since it found its
way back to Rohan! How very careless of him...


"We started on our feet, and we have those still."

"Feet!" said Gimli. "But we cannot eat them as well as walk on them."

Is Gimli complaining that they will now face a long and hungry walk
before they reach supplies, or is he seriously proposing that they
could have eaten Eomer's horses? ;-)
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed

* Never assume malice when ignorance is a possibility *

Belba Grubb from Stock

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Jul 18, 2004, 12:34:22 PM7/18/04
to
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:59:20 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>> Note that the
>> eored does not seem to have caught up to the orcs until the orcs were
>> near the Entwash and that Aragorn and party saw no traces of the
>> horsemen until then either.
>
>But Aragorn did hear horses through the ground. If you look up when this
>is, and where they are, that might give some indication of where Eomer's
>eored might have been.

It was on the night of 2/27 that Aragorn heard the hooves, even in his
dreams, "passing in the West." At dawn he said that he heard them
drawing further away, heading northward.

The Three Hunters had started out due west that morning and now were
36 miles out from the East Wall of Rohan, and the Riders were a little
further West than that, far enough away that Gimli couldn't hear them
but not so far away that no rumor of their passing could be heard in
the ground by a Ranger. That he heard it even in his sleep, when he
wasn't listening, seems to indicate that they were fairly close. To
me that signifies that they weren't coming from the West Emnet, on the
other side of the Entwash, which is where they likely would have been
at least part of the time had Eomer started out from Edoras.

By dawn the Riders had turned north, but Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli
had to follow the Orc track northwestward; only later in the day did
it turn north (toward the downs). We could perhaps say that the
Riders at dawn were at or somewhat beyond that northward turning point
on the trail. Could they have reached that point so quickly if they
had come from Edoras?

>> So when did Eomer get to Edoras? If he took 42 hours to get back,
>> then he should have arrived about midnight of the 1/2 at the earliest.
>> It would make more sense I would think for him to have camped the
>> night and shown up on the morning of the 2nd.

Of necessity they had to camp on the eaves of Fangorn after the
battle, but Eomer had "need of haste." He had told Aragorn that there
was "battle even now upon the Westemnet" and he feared it might go
ill; he also knew the King's house was left with little protection
without his eored. I don't think he would have camped on the way back
no matter how tired he and his men were. Likely he arrived at Edoras
some time on the 1st and was promptly imprisoned after threatening to
kill Grima in Theoden's presence.

One wonders how much Grima knew of the whole affair at that point,
that he so strongly urged Eomer's imprisonment (after probably
provoking him to wrath). Two days had passed, enough time for spies
of Saruman to get word to Grima of what had happened. Had Saruman
ordered Eomer's swift imprisonment not only to weaken Rohan militarily
and further divide it internally, but also in case Eomer had somehow
learned something of the hobbit prisoners and perhaps even knew their
present location?

Belba Grubb from Stock

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Jul 18, 2004, 12:37:53 PM7/18/04
to
On 8 Jul 2004 11:11:35 -0700, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:

>Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message news:<as4le0t1hbp5fkemu...@4ax.com>...
>> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
>> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
>>
>> To check out the other Chapters of the Week or to sign up to do a
>> chapter of your own, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org. Anybody
>> signed up for Chapter 3 yet?
>
>No. Anyone?
>
>Thank you Grub, great job!
>(snip)

Thanks, Henriette!

>> at the
>> furthest point of the hobbit tracks away from the trail he finds the
>> brooch of an Elven cloak.
>
>The brooch is described as having the shape of the leaf of a
>beech-tree. In the film it has the shape of an *ivy*-leaf. (she said
>accusingly).

Can it be, especially in light of the knowledgeable and detailed
discussion here, in a few languages, of rowan trees and their fruits,
that the distinguishing mark of a true Tolkienista (compared with
somebody just trying to turn a buck) is how well they know their
botany and dendrology? Could be, could be....

:-)

Emma Pease

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Jul 18, 2004, 2:32:18 PM7/18/04
to

Hence my thought that his outgoing time and his coming back time was
about the same, 18 hours (plus a little bit extra on the return trip
to get to Edoras).

He would have had to rest the horses. Even Gandalf, Aragorn, and co
had to rest for a few hours when riding from Fangorn to Edoras.

> One wonders how much Grima knew of the whole affair at that point,
> that he so strongly urged Eomer's imprisonment (after probably
> provoking him to wrath). Two days had passed, enough time for spies
> of Saruman to get word to Grima of what had happened. Had Saruman
> ordered Eomer's swift imprisonment not only to weaken Rohan militarily
> and further divide it internally, but also in case Eomer had somehow
> learned something of the hobbit prisoners and perhaps even knew their
> present location?

I doubt Grima knew the specifics of Ugluk's raid or even that it was
occurring but he did have standing orders according to Unfinished
Tales to get Eomer into trouble. Having Eomer thrown into prison
works right into this. Note that Saruman did not know that the orcs
had any prisoners according to Gandalf (see the chapter where Aragorn
and co meet up with Gandalf). Though, depending on how much Eomer
reported on his meeting with Aragorn before being thrown in prison,
Grima might learn that there was a strong possibility of prisoners
being present. I also suspect he would try to get the news to
Saruman, but, I'm not sure how effective his methods of getting news to
Saruman were. Did he have any means short of reporting in person?

Once Eomer threatened to kill Grima, Grima wouldn't have needed much
if any persuasion to get Theoden to throw Eomer into prison (remember
Theoden trusted Grima even if no one else did). Kings tend not to
like their ministers being threatened.