gandalf and merlin - what's your opinion
Inkliing
the character of merlin the magician in the arthur legends seems to live in two
worlds, especially in the newer versions of the story, like malory's. merlin is
part of the old briton/druid sect of magic. he is the teacher of morgan la fay
in many versions. he's the magician - the center of magic. but he is also the
only character which is also very much a part of the life at camalot. he is a
christian in most versions - the only christian character who is allowed to
dabble in magic. he is arthur's teacher and teaches him christian ideals.
merlin lived in both the old magic briton and the new christian briton at the
time of the story.
gandalf also seems to live in two of tolkien's worlds. he is very comfortable
in the little hobbit world blowing smoke rings and laughing. but he also at the
end of the story is the leader of the west - the powerful, magical enemy of
sauron.
any comments??
O.L.
Mike Kew
>how are they similar and how are they different
>
>the character of merlin the magician in the arthur legends seems to live in two
>worlds, especially in the newer versions of the story, like malory's.
Good grief - if Malory's is a newer version, what 'older' versions
are you thinking of?
>merlin is
>part of the old briton/druid sect of magic. he is the teacher of morgan la fay
>in many versions. he's the magician - the center of magic. but he is also the
>only character which is also very much a part of the life at camalot. he is a
>christian in most versions - the only christian character who is allowed to
>dabble in magic.
The whole myth cycle was Christianised by the late-medieval/early
renaissance writers, such as Malory, to make it more acceptable to
Church, state and censors of their day. I'd guess that Merlin's
Christianity crept in then. My own favourite portrayal of him is
the sarcastic old druid in John Boorman's 'Excalibur'.
>he is arthur's teacher and teaches him christian ideals.
He teaches generic virtuous ideals - they're not specifically
Christian.
>merlin lived in both the old magic briton and the new christian briton at the
>time of the story.
The story is set in the Dark Ages - when both these Britains *did*
exist side by side. It seems safe to say that the Christian
aspect was beefed up in the first printed versions, and the
contradiction would not have appeared as great then as it might
now.
>gandalf also seems to live in two of tolkien's worlds. he is very comfortable
>in the little hobbit world blowing smoke rings and laughing. but he also at the
>end of the story is the leader of the west - the powerful, magical enemy of
>sauron.
Good point. Gandalf is a dual character in other ways, too. In
'The Hobbit' he appears at first as an old Man - it's only later
we get the first hints that he's not human, until he finally gets
elevated to a sort of demigodhood. He dies fighting the Balrog,
then comes back to life; he is elevated from Grey to White; he is
a cloaked, frail old man, and a charismatic and fearless military
leader.
The contrast between apparent and underlying 'reality' is a common
idea in LotR, and Gandalf is one of the clearest examples of it.
Most of the time he actively conceals his 'true' nature and power.
The success of his mission, where all the other Istari failed, may
well be due, at least in part, to his success in immersing himself
in this familiar, homely world (which Saruman never tries to do -
leading to his isolation and corruption) while still not
forgetting his origins and mission (which Radagast appears to do).
--
Mike Kew
"Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same;
for I shall not be the same."
Nicholas Costa
Inkliing wrote in message <19990226001353...@ng-da1.aol.com>...
>how are they similar and how are they different
>
>the character of merlin the magician in the arthur legends seems to live in
two
>worlds, especially in the newer versions of the story, like malory's.
>part of the old briton/druid sect of magic. he is the teacher of morgan la
fay
>in many versions. he's the magician - the center of magic. but he is also
the
>only character which is also very much a part of the life at camalot. he is
a
>christian in most versions - the only christian character who is allowed to
>merlin lived in both the old magic briton and the new christian briton at
the
>time of the story.
>
comfortable
>in the little hobbit world blowing smoke rings and laughing. but he also at
the
>end of the story is the leader of the west - the powerful, magical enemy of
>sauron.
>
>O.L.
Just an interesting point, the way I have always interpreted Merlin was as a
type of warlock (like the which in that grate film 'Robin Hood - Prince of
Thieves), these were likely to be a feared member of a society but in the
Legend, we often see an old Druid, Warlock or old wise man acting as a close
adviser to kings in old stories. He had to gain some respectability so that
Christians would except him. This was important since he was the hero to the
SW of England and South Wales, after all religious Assimilation is much
quicker then concurring and Christians are the experts at it. A major
difference is the lack of overt magic in the early stories. Unlike Gandalf
there is no evidence that he could through bolts of power (but it does make
a good story) being more of a suth sayer (SP??). One other slightly
obvious/silly point Merlin was probably a real person (hence it is a legend
not a myth) where as Gandalf was not. this means the Gandalf can be a
'bigger' person.
N. C=}
Chris McClinch
says...
>>
>>the character of merlin the magician in the arthur legends seems to live in
two
>>worlds, especially in the newer versions of the story, like malory's.
>
>are you thinking of?
Lagamon, Chretien, the Gawain poet, etc. Malory was a great compiler of what
others had been writing about Arthur for centuries.
>
>>merlin is
>>part of the old briton/druid sect of magic. he is the teacher of morgan la
fay
>>in many versions. he's the magician - the center of magic. but he is also the
>>only character which is also very much a part of the life at camalot. he is a
>>christian in most versions - the only christian character who is allowed to
>>dabble in magic.
>
>The whole myth cycle was Christianised by the late-medieval/early
>renaissance writers, such as Malory, to make it more acceptable to
>Church, state and censors of their day. I'd guess that Merlin's
>Christianity crept in then. My own favourite portrayal of him is
>the sarcastic old druid in John Boorman's 'Excalibur'.
>
>>he is arthur's teacher and teaches him christian ideals.
>
>He teaches generic virtuous ideals - they're not specifically
>Christian.
>
>>merlin lived in both the old magic briton and the new christian briton at the
>>time of the story.
>
>The story is set in the Dark Ages - when both these Britains *did*
>exist side by side. It seems safe to say that the Christian
>aspect was beefed up in the first printed versions, and the
>contradiction would not have appeared as great then as it might
>now.
>
>>gandalf also seems to live in two of tolkien's worlds. he is very comfortable
>>in the little hobbit world blowing smoke rings and laughing. but he also at
the
>>end of the story is the leader of the west - the powerful, magical enemy of
>>sauron.
>
>Good point. Gandalf is a dual character in other ways, too. In
>'The Hobbit' he appears at first as an old Man - it's only later
>we get the first hints that he's not human, until he finally gets
>elevated to a sort of demigodhood. He dies fighting the Balrog,
>then comes back to life; he is elevated from Grey to White; he is
>a cloaked, frail old man, and a charismatic and fearless military
>leader.
>
>The contrast between apparent and underlying 'reality' is a common
>idea in LotR, and Gandalf is one of the clearest examples of it.
>Most of the time he actively conceals his 'true' nature and power.
>The success of his mission, where all the other Istari failed, may
>well be due, at least in part, to his success in immersing himself
>in this familiar, homely world (which Saruman never tries to do -
>leading to his isolation and corruption) while still not
>forgetting his origins and mission (which Radagast appears to do).
>
>--
>Mike Kew
>
>"Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same;
>for I shall not be the same."
--
Chris McClinch
cmcc...@vt.edu
Cuteboy UK
Mike Kew wrote in message ...
>On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Inkliing <inkl...@aol.com> wrote
>>how are they similar and how are they different
>>
>>the character of merlin the magician in the arthur legends seems to live
in two
>>worlds, especially in the newer versions of the story, like malory's.
>
>Good grief - if Malory's is a newer version, what 'older' versions
>are you thinking of?
Well, there is Gerald, and of course, Chretien de Troyes!
My own favourite portrayal of him is
>the sarcastic old druid in John Boorman's 'Excalibur'.
Yes, Nichol Williamson is wonderful with Helen Mirren isn't he?
My favourite portrayal is probably T.H. White's in 'The Once and Future
King' followed closely by Marion Zimmer Bradley's 'The Mists of Avalon'. The
character of the Merlin is very moving.
Lee
Panz III
Paganini <Nathan E. Banks>
Glad to hear it.
;o)