CotW missing?

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Christopher Kreuzer

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Jun 2, 2005, 2:24:42 PM6/2/05
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Is there a CotW discussion missing this week? Can't see the House of
Eorl anywhere round here...

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Larry Swain

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Jun 3, 2005, 8:28:33 AM6/3/05
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> Is there a CotW discussion missing this week? Can't see the House of
> Eorl anywhere round here...
>
> Christopher
>

OOPPSS, that's me! Sorry about that. Will try and post over the
weekend if I can, but Monday for sure.

TT Arvind

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Jun 3, 2005, 8:30:44 AM6/3/05
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Wes ðu Christopher Kreuzer hal!

> Can't see the House of Eorl anywhere round here...

They're in the thatched barn, drinking in the reek.

--
Arvind

Les grandes personnes sont décidément bien bizarres, se dit le petit
prince.

Larry Swain

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Jun 7, 2005, 12:13:55 PM6/7/05
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Here we go, better late than never, I hope.

The House of Eorl and Rohirrim are related to those peoples who dwelled
in Rhonvanion, and are in origin closely related to the Beornings; their
realm was south of Mirkwood before the invasions of the Wainriders, and
since the forefathers of Eorl were descended from the kings, they could
claim distant kinship with the kings of Gondor through the descendants
of Eldacar (see Appendix A.I.iv). During and after the invasions of the
Wainriders (see Appendix A.I.iv), the horse-lords moved westward and
dwelled between Gladden Fields and the Carrock. This land grew crowded,
and the shadow of Dol Guldur grew longer, and the Witch King had been
overthrown (see Appendix A.I.iii, iv), so they moved northward and drove
away the remnants of Angmar on that side of the mountains.

In 2510 of the Third Age, Gondor was beset by armies of wild men from
the East who crossed the Anduin, and also from the west by great number
of orcs who came down from the mountains. Cirion the Steward sent north
for any help (see Appendix A.I.iv, and also UT. Pt. III.ii, Cirion and
Eorl) , and eventually messengers came to Eorl, made king
after his father Leod was thrown from a horse he tried to tame. Eorl
sought out the horse, demanded weregild of the beast, and the horse
submitted. Eorl (OE: brave man, chief, later a nobleman) named him
Felarof (a lot of bravery), the first of the mearas (OE mearh=horse)
whose sires were believed to have come over the sea with Orome. Eorl
answered Gondor's pleas for help, and he and his force came to the Field
of Celebrant just as Gondor's army was being crushed between the forces
of the wild men and the orcs. The riders from the North cast fear into
the hearts and minds of their foes and the tide turned in Gondor's favor.

Cirion in gratitude for their aid, and to have the essentially
depopulated land to the north repopulated with a strong ally rather than
open to his enemies, ceded Calenardhon between the Anduin and the Isen
to Eorl and his people. They renamed it the Mark (OE mearc, district,
territory, province, also related to the kingdom of Mercia, the dialect
of OE that Tolkien liked best and where Oxford was located) of the
Riders, and called themselves Eorlingas; in Gondor they were known as
the Rohirrim (horse-lords) and their land Rohan.

Yet, the Eorlingas did not forget their homeland in the north and told
many stories and sang many songs relating tales of their land there.
They remembered Frumgar, the chieftain who led the people north to the
Eotheod. Fram, Frumgar's son, slew Scatha, the great worm of Ered
Mithrin. When the Dwarves who feuded with Scatha sought some
reparations and so claimed Scatha's hoard (most of which was stolen from
them in the first place), Fram sent them only a necklace of Scatha's
teeth. Though Fram grew wealthy because of Scatha's hoard, he
transferred the feud of the dwarves from Scatha to his own people.

Eorl reigned sixty years in the Mark. He died in battle against the
Easterlings in 2545. Felarof lay with him in death.

Brego (OE=ruler, chief) defeated the Easterlings and built the great
hall of Meduseld.(OE mead hall)

His son Baldor (OE Prince, ruler, and some will also recognize the name
of one of the Norse gods) at the feast in the hall vowed he would tread
the Paths of the Dead . He did not return. (see LoTR: RoTK, bk V,
chap. 2: The Passing of the Grey Company).

Brego's second son Aldor (OE chief, leader), known as the Old (a
linguistic joke: the name is a shortened form of OE ealdor, elder, old
man, etc and by extension chief, leader, king. Like Gamling the Old,
Tolkien is here having a double entendre and joke: The old leader the
old, you might say)for the length of his life and reign, some 75 years.
For the most part he had peace; he drove out the rest of the
Dunlendings, and the Rohirrim grew and prospered.

Frea (OE, master), Aldor's son, was old when he began to rule, little is
said of him or his son Freawine (lord-friend), or grandson Goldwine
(gold-friend, generous, goldwine and freawine are both used to describe
Hrothgar in Beowulf); these were peaceful and prosperous times.

Deor (noble, excellent), 2644-2718, had trouble with the Dunlendings,
who occupied Isengard and could not be overcome. His son Gram (the
fierce one) followed, and then comes Helm (helmet) Hammerhand.

In the Mark, between Eorl and Theoden, the most is told of Helm
Hammerhand. Toward the end of his reign, an earl of the kingdom,
thought to have Dunlendish heritage in his line, named Freca (OE has two
"freca" words: a) greedy and b) warrior), became
rich and powerful in his way. He approached Helm at council for the
hdan of Helm's daughter for his son, Wulf. Helm rebuffed him, Freca
responded none to well to the king's jest. Helm suggested that he and
Freca deal with it later. After the council, Helm forced Freca outside
and away from friends and supporters, spoken his mind, and backed it up
with a blow with his fist. Freca fell and died. Helm declared all of
Freca's family outlaws, and so Freca's kin fled. Four years later,
Gondor was attacked by Corsairs, and Rohan was beset from the East over
the Anduin. The Dunlendings then also rose up with Wulf, Freca's son,
at their head and crossed the Isen. They were bolstered by enemies of
Gondor that landed at the mouths of the Isen and Lefnui rivers, came
upriver, and swelled the numbers of the Dunlendings. Gondor was unable
to send aid. Rohan was overrun, and Helm took refuge in the Hornburg.
Wulf took Edoras and killed Helm's son Haleth (hero). At this time the
Long Winter ravaged the Eorlingas and their enemies alike, and many on
both sides died from the cold and the starvation. In midwinter at Yule,
Helm's son Hama (name of a Germanic hero who stole the Broslings
necklace, appears in Beowulf)led a small force out to foray, but they
were lost in the snow. In despair, Helm would go out clad all in white
and stalk hisenemies, kiilling them with his bare hands. His enemies
quailed, and when he signaled his intent by winding his great horn, they
fled down the Coomb rather than fight the king. Eventually Helm died,
a solid white figure, knees unbent, standing on the Dike. Even still,
the Dunlendings feared to approach.

The winter broke. Frealaf (beloved leader), son of Hild (war), Helm's
sister, descended from
Dunharrow and destroyed Wulf, caught unaware and surprised in Meduseld.
Over the following months, the Easterlings withdrew, and aid from
Gondor came, and the Dunlendings were driven back. Frealaf became king
and began the new line of kings. It was almost a century before the
Rohirrim regained their strength. At Frealaf's crowning, Saruman
appeared seeking to dwell in Isengard. Beren, Steward of Gondor, gave
him the keys, but still claimed the fortress for Gondor, Saruman was but
occupant.

Frealof has already been mentioned. His son was Brytta (governor),
called by his people Leofa (Beloved) so much did his people love him.
In his time war was renewed with the Orcs who sought to make refuge in
the White mountains, refugees of the war of the Orcs and Dwarves. (see
Appendix A:I;iv Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion: The Stewards, and
Appendix A:III Durin's Folk; also see Appendix B: year TA 2793).

Walda (fr. weald, might, power)had a short reign, he was trapped by orcs
as he and his friends rode in the mountains from Dunharrow.

Folca (the people, the tribe), known as a great hunter, avenged his
father and stamped out the last orc stronghold in the White Mountains.

Folcwine (peopple's friend) reconquered the west march that the
Dunlendings had long occupied. He also sent aid to Gondor who was being
attacked by the Haradrim. His twin sons went in his place and both died
in service to Gondor.

Fengel (lord, king(, the fourth son of Folcwine, is not remembered well.
He was greedy, made strife with his children and his counsellors. His
son Thengel (prince, king)left and lived in Gondor in the service of
Turgon. Thengel married late and wed Morwen of Lossarnach, whom the
Rohirrim called Steelsheen for her slender grace, pride, and fair
complexion. They had 3 children in Gondor, Thengel the first son but
second child. When Fengel died, the Rohirrim recalled Thengel, but he
was relunctant to go. He had two more children in Rohan, Theodwyn was
the more beautiful and her brother Thengel loved her dearly. Soon into
Thengel's reign Saruman declared himself Lord of Isengard.

Theoden (chief, king) reigned from 2948 to 3019. He is known as Theoden
Ednew (renewed), since he fell into a decline but was renewed by Gandalf
(see LoTR: TT: bk iii, The Golden Hall). Most of his story is related
in the LoTR. Elements that are not mentioned in the main text are
mentioned here.

His sister Theodwyn (people's joy) in 2989 married Eomund of Eastfold,
the chief Marshal. She bore him 2 children, Eomer and Eowyn. This
period was dark, as Sauron arose again, Saruman encroached on Rohan's
borders, orcs stole and slew horses. Eomund was killed in 3002 in a
raid against a band of orcs. His wife soon after grew ill and in time
died. Theoden took Eomer and Eowyn into his own house and called them
his son and his daughter. Theoden had only one child of his own,
Theodred. Theoden's wife Elfhild died in child birth. Theodred died in
the First Battle of the Fords of Isen, February 25, 3019.

Theoden died before the gates of Minas Tirith (Mundburg). His nephew
and heir, Eomer, became king and so began the third line of kings since
Eorl. Eomer reigned 65 years, made the friendship of Aragorn, King
Elessar, and of Prince Imrahil. He married Lothiriel, daughter of
Imrahil. His son Elfwine the Fair ruled after him. King Elessar
renewed Cirion's grant, and Eomer repeated Eorl's oath.


I had difficulty coming up with discussion questions on this, I admit.
So here is what I have, feel free to add others!

1. The Eorlingas seem to be on the cusp of this history all the way
through. Why, and why aren't they more central sooner?

2. Why haven't either Rohan or Gondor seen the usefulness of "wains"
and adapted some of the milt forces to chariots?

3. The marriages in LoTR all seem to be significant in terms of the
overall history. What is significant about Eomer marrying Imrahil's
daughter?

4. One of the lines consistent re: the Realms in Exile is that their
lines became mixed with lesser men: isn't this exactly what is happening
with marriages of Eomer and Eowyn: high Numenoreans with untainted
family lines marrying lesser, albeit noble, people?

5. Why did the Dunlendings seem to hate the Rohirrim more than they did
Gondor?

Raven

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Jun 7, 2005, 3:22:29 PM6/7/05
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"Larry Swain" <thes...@operamail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:rt6dnVdjA6V...@rcn.net...

Thank you for the translations of the OE names of Rohirric kings.

> 2. Why haven't either Rohan or Gondor seen the usefulness of "wains"
> and adapted some of the milt forces to chariots?

Rohan had cavalry already. I suppose that with strong enough horses,
cavalry is superiour to chariots. It has the same mobility in open terrain,
and greater mobility in more rugged terrain. And a horse represents a
lesser resource than a horse and a chariot. And in addition a chariot
requires two warriors, one to steer the horse or horses, one to do the
actual fighting, or at least in some chariot armies this has been the case.
As for Gondor, they may similarly have preferred cavalry. Keep in mind
that they descended from the Númenoreans, who delighted in riding and
horsemanship on their isle. But Gondor was a more densely populated
country, with less grazing land for horses. Thus they emphasized infantry
more.
If I have understood earlier discussions on these NGs correctly then
chariots preceded cavalry because early horses were too small to bear fully
armed warriors. Then larger and stronger horses were bred, and chariots
were superseded by cavalry.

> 5. Why did the Dunlendings seem to hate the Rohirrim more than they did
> Gondor?

It was the Rohirrim who actually drove the Dunlendings out of the
easternmost part of their land. They may have resented Gondor for having
permitted the Rohirrim to do so, but it is natural that their chief hatred
was given to the actual usurpers of part of their land.

Corbie.


Yuk Tang

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Jun 7, 2005, 4:24:10 PM6/7/05
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"Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in
news:uWmpe.2829$su6...@news.get2net.dk:
> "Larry Swain" <thes...@operamail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:rt6dnVdjA6V...@rcn.net...
>
> Thank you for the translations of the OE names of Rohirric
> kings.
>
>> 2. Why haven't either Rohan or Gondor seen the usefulness of
>> "wains" and adapted some of the milt forces to chariots?
>
> Rohan had cavalry already. I suppose that with strong enough
> horses,
> cavalry is superiour to chariots. It has the same mobility in
> open terrain, and greater mobility in more rugged terrain. And a
> horse represents a lesser resource than a horse and a chariot.
> And in addition a chariot requires two warriors, one to steer the
> horse or horses, one to do the actual fighting, or at least in
> some chariot armies this has been the case.

Bring down a single horse and one brings down a whole chariot.
Presumably the rider will look to cut the dead horse loose before the
whole thing crashes in a heap, but he may not be quick enough. Also,
the same number of horses will yield more cavalrymen than chariots.
The horse may not be quite as stable a platform as the chariot, but
practised horsemen will probably be adept enough and use appropriate
tactics to render this moot.


> As for Gondor, they may similarly have preferred cavalry. Keep
> in mind
> that they descended from the Númenoreans, who delighted in riding
> and horsemanship on their isle. But Gondor was a more densely
> populated country, with less grazing land for horses. Thus they
> emphasized infantry more.

Compare the steppes with the Chinese heartland.


--
Cheers, ymt.

Raven

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Jun 8, 2005, 3:15:15 PM6/8/05
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"Yuk Tang" <jiml...@yahoo.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:Xns966ED9B9210FBy...@195.92.193.157...

> "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in
> news:uWmpe.2829$su6...@news.get2net.dk:

> > As for Gondor, they may similarly have preferred cavalry. Keep


> > in mind that they descended from the Númenoreans, who delighted
> > in riding and horsemanship on their isle. But Gondor was a more
> > densely populated country, with less grazing land for horses.
> > Thus they emphasized infantry more.

> Compare the steppes with the Chinese heartland.

This comparison: do you also see a comparison between Gondor and
Rhovanion at the time of the invasions of the wainriders, and China and the
northern steppes, with Anduin as a comparison with the Great Wall? Though
as I understand it the Great Wall was as much to let raiders from the
steppes know that they couldn't easily get out as to prevent them getting
in.

Wu[1] Ya[1].


Yuk Tang

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Jun 8, 2005, 4:16:48 PM6/8/05
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"Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in
news:F1Ipe.179$SH5...@news.get2net.dk:

What I meant is that raiders from the steppes were mainly horse-
based, while armies operating in the Chinese lands proper were more
biased towards infantry. When Khubilai eventually conquered southern
Sung, it was with armies heavily drawn from the beaten Jin.
Similarly, the Manchus completed their conquest with the aid of
disaffected Chinese generals (who, true to form, were liquidated
afterwards).


--
Cheers, ymt.

R. Dan Henry

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Jun 23, 2005, 1:03:45 AM6/23/05
to
On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 11:13:55 -0500, Larry Swain
<thes...@operamail.com> wrote:

>Here we go, better late than never, I hope.
>
>The House of Eorl and Rohirrim are related to those peoples who dwelled
>in Rhonvanion, and are in origin closely related to the Beornings; their
>realm was south of Mirkwood

East, rather, or more easterly than southernly. The king mentioned in
A.I.iv had his realm between the Greenwood and the River Running. It
is a bit vague, though. Rhovanion is big.

>Eorl
>sought out the horse, demanded weregild of the beast, and the horse
>submitted.

An odd tale.

> Eorl (OE: brave man, chief, later a nobleman) named him
>Felarof (a lot of bravery), the first of the mearas (OE mearh=horse)
>whose sires were believed to have come over the sea with Orome.

Who thinks this is true? There seems to be something extraordinary
about the mearas and this explanation is as good as any.

>Eorl
>answered Gondor's pleas for help, and he and his force came to the Field
>of Celebrant just as Gondor's army was being crushed between the forces
>of the wild men and the orcs. The riders from the North cast fear into
>the hearts and minds of their foes and the tide turned in Gondor's favor.

Eucatastrophe in the backstory!

>Frea (OE, master), Aldor's son, was old when he began to rule, little is
>said of him or his son Freawine (lord-friend), or grandson Goldwine
>(gold-friend, generous, goldwine and freawine are both used to describe
>Hrothgar in Beowulf); these were peaceful and prosperous times.

Thanks for including the linguistic notes; these are great.

>Deor (noble, excellent), 2644-2718, had trouble with the Dunlendings,
>who occupied Isengard and could not be overcome. His son Gram (the
>fierce one) followed, and then comes Helm (helmet) Hammerhand.
>
>In the Mark, between Eorl and Theoden, the most is told of Helm
>Hammerhand. Toward the end of his reign, an earl of the kingdom,
>thought to have Dunlendish heritage in his line, named Freca (OE has two
>"freca" words: a) greedy and b) warrior), became
>rich and powerful in his way. He approached Helm at council for the
>hdan of Helm's daughter for his son, Wulf. Helm rebuffed him, Freca
>responded none to well to the king's jest.

Well, Helm was being an ass.

FRECA: I thought maybe your daughter and my son could get married.

HELM: HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! YOU'RE ***FAT***!!!!!

Freca hints that maybe discarding a possible alliance on his western
flank is the foolish pride of an old man refusing a staff. Helm
decides the appropriate response is to kill Freca and hunt his family.

>Four years later,
>Gondor was attacked by Corsairs, and Rohan was beset from the East over
>the Anduin. The Dunlendings then also rose up with Wulf, Freca's son,
>at their head and crossed the Isen. They were bolstered by enemies of
>Gondor that landed at the mouths of the Isen and Lefnui rivers, came
>upriver, and swelled the numbers of the Dunlendings.

Whereas if Wulf had been an ally and family, the Dunlendings might
have helped stop the landings and Rohan could have aided Gondor
instead of looking for aid. Maybe Freca and/or Wulf was unsuitable as
an ally, but this is certainly not clear.

>In despair, Helm would go out clad all in white
>and stalk hisenemies, kiilling them with his bare hands.

Like a hunting snow troll -- are snow trolls mentioned anywhere else?

Anyway, Helm gets full points for being a badass fighter, but I have
doubts about Hammerhand's (hands like hammers) general rulership
abilities, especially in the field of diplomacy.

>2. Why haven't either Rohan or Gondor seen the usefulness of "wains"
>and adapted some of the milt forces to chariots?

Because chariots are useful mainly if the battle is taking place in a
parking lot. The ground becomes too non-level for chariots far sooner
than for cavalry. There's a reason the age of chariots belongs to
early warfare -- they're better than walking, but only in the right
terrain and not nearly as useful as later developments.

>3. The marriages in LoTR all seem to be significant in terms of the
>overall history. What is significant about Eomer marrying Imrahil's
>daughter?

Yet another alliance between Rohan and Gondor. That's royal politics
-- although Tolkien makes them love matches as well.

>4. One of the lines consistent re: the Realms in Exile is that their
>lines became mixed with lesser men: isn't this exactly what is happening
>with marriages of Eomer and Eowyn: high Numenoreans with untainted
>family lines marrying lesser, albeit noble, people?

Yes.

>5. Why did the Dunlendings seem to hate the Rohirrim more than they did
>Gondor?

The Rohirrim were nearer and in active conflict for the more recent
centuries. I doubt they were more friendly to the Gondorians, which is
one reason that it was important to resettle the depopulated
Calenardhon.

--
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com

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