CotW Silmarillion 5 - Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie

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Yuk Tang

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Dec 5, 2005, 4:39:51 PM12/5/05
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The chapter describes the lands the migrating Quendi found themselves
in, and the realms they founded there. It begins with a description
of the geography, which can best be imagined with North America
instead of ME, east Asia instead of Aman, and the straits of Alaska
in place of the straits of Helcaraxe, where there was only a narrow
sea, but one filled with grinding ice. The Vanyar and Noldor were
transported on an isle uprooted by Ulmo, most of which arrived off
the coast of Aman as Tol Eressea (imagine Taiwan) in the bay of
Eldamar (Elvenhome), but part of which broke off and remained as the
Isle of Balar.

The Teleri missed Ulmo's summons and missed the boat, so to speak.
Partly due to their camping in the east of Beleriand, partly due to
waiting for Elwe to show his face. Eventually, once they'd learned
of their friends' departure, they set up on the coast near the mouths
of Sirion and chose Elwe's brother as their leader. Osse and Uinen
came to befriend them, and all was happiness for a while until
busybody Ulmo came to spirit them away also (on the pleas of the
Vanyar and Noldor, Tolkien says). Osse managed to persuade some of
the Teleri to remain as the Falathrim (the Haven-Elves), under
Cirdan, and Elwe's friends stayed behind looking for the tarrier,
calling themselves the Eglath (the Forsaken), settling away from the
shores that reminded them of their departed friends. Eventually Elwe
did reappear with Melian on his arm.

Ulmo stopped the island transporting the Teleri just short of Aman at
the behest of Osse, to the other Valar's displeasure, and they
evolved a culture separated from that of the Vanyar and Noldor. The
Noldor, in perhaps early evidence of light pollution, wanted to see
the stars occasionally, so a pass was created in the Pelori (the
Fencing Heights) where they might wander out, away from the Two
Trees. The Noldor erected a hill named Tuna in the long valley
leading to the Calacirya (the Pass of Light), on which was built the
Elvish city Tirion. The Vanyar and Noldor lived together in Tirion,
and one of its main landmarks was Ingwe's tower, the Mindon Eldalieva
(Tower of the Elves).

The Valar often came to visit the Elves, particularly Aule and his
people. Yavanna made them a replica of Telperion, Galathilion, alike
to the White Tree except it did not emit light. Aule taught the
Noldor his craft, and they eventually found gems in their travails,
which they freely gave to the other Elves.

Then follows a family tree of the House of Finwe. Seasoned Tolkien
usenetters will be familiar with the disputed nature of this bit, so
I'll just state the most important bits. Finwe had three sons,
Feanor the eldest, Fingolfin and Finarfin. Feanor had seven sons,
Fingolfin a son and a daughter Fingon and Aredhel, and Finarfin had a
son (Finrod), a daughter (Galadriel) and various other sprogs.

The Teleri were happy for a time on Tol Eressea, but even Osse's
mercurial company must have palled over time, and they looked towards
the other Elves on the mainland. Osse taught them shipbuilding, and
they crossed the bay to make their home on its shores. They renewed
their acquaintances with their Noldorin friends, and founded the city
of Alqualonde (Swanhaven) with their help.

Tirion was apparently not enough for the Vanyar, and seeking a
stronger fix, they went to live in Valinor proper, some even on
Taniquetil. They became separated from the other Elves, but the
Noldor's hearts looked towards their Telerin friends and the Middle
Earth they'd left behind. The Feanorians in particular waltzed their
Matildas all around Valinor and Aman. Despite moving away from the
other Elves, Ingwe was held to be High King of all the Eldar.

Points to discuss

1. The seas in the north were filled with ice because of the frosts
of Melkor. Was this climate explained in the creation myth, or was
it colder there because it was closer to Angband? If so, was it
similarly cold in the extreme south?

2. The Elves were originally afraid of and overawed by the Great Sea
when they first saw it, but Ulmo's overtures convinced them that the
Sea was friendly and not to be feared. So the love of water wasn't
ingrained, but was taught, at least among the Vanyar and Noldor.

3. Ulmo came the the Quendi after counsel with the other Valar. As
mentioned later in the chapter, he didn't advocate migrating the
Elves to Aman, but he became the prime mover (in more ways than one)
in the events that followed. One wonders if he ever griped about the
lazy so-sos who asked the Elves to join them in their land yet never
lifted a finger to help.

4. The Teleri missed the summons because they were in the east of
Beleriand. If they were indeed lovers of water, why did they dwell
so far from the sea? Judging from chap4, they must have lived in
Thargelion and perhaps Ossiriand, since Elwe was bewitched by Melian
in Nan Elmoth towards what would later become Doriath. Gelion must
have been pretty nice to settle near, but why didn't they press
westwards towards the more picturesque Sirion, and henceforth to the
Great Sea? Did their leaders wish to keep their peoples organised
and separated?

5. There was evidently quite a gap between the summons and the
Teleri's response, a testament to the size of their host and
rudimentary nature of their tribal structures. How great a part did
the absence of Elwe play in this delay? Was the tribe that dependent
on its leader?

6. The Teleri came to love the sea after being befriended by Osse
and Uinen, who taught them sea-lore and sea-music. Yet he only
taught them the craft of shipbuilding later on, when they made the
crossing from Tol Eressea. How would they have learned sea-lore if
they didn't have ships? Did Osse make them rowing boats to be used
near the coasts of ME, and seagoing ships later? But the later
models were drawn by swans.

7. Osse was displeased by the Teleri's later summons as his remit
was limited to the seas near ME. Did the Valar still not fully trust
him after his rebellion and his known temper, and wanted him as far
away from them as possible?

8. Elwe may have been the tallest of the Children of Illuvatar
(presumably at the time, since I can't see anyone significantly
topping Elendil), but why did his friends accept him as King after he
reappeared? They were evidently upset at being left behind, so how
does a shining face and a big frame make up for his dereliction of
leadership duties?

9. Ulmo wasn't a fan of bringing the Elves to Valinor, and he
sympathised with Osse's longing for his little friends. ISTM that in
the Silm, Ulmo is the only Vala to empathise and sympathise with the
lug that is Osse.

10. The Noldor wished at times to get away from the light of the Two
Trees and see the stars. How did Varda feel, to have her handiwork
blotted out by that of Yavanna and Nienna?

11. Tirion was built to house both Noldor and Vanyar. So what
happened when the Vanyar moved out? Did newer generations of Noldor
move in, or did they keep the houses empty in case the original
inhabitants decided to move back?

12. It's probably been discussed before (I'm sure I saw a thread on
it a few years ago), but what does the 'living rock' of the gate of
Alqualonde consist of?

13. Why was Ingwe High King of the Eldar?


--
Cheers, ymt.

Taemon

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Dec 5, 2005, 4:47:13 PM12/5/05
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Yuk Tang wrote:

> 8. Elwe may have been the tallest of the Children of Illuvatar
> (presumably at the time, since I can't see anyone significantly
> topping Elendil), but why did his friends accept him as King after he
> reappeared? They were evidently upset at being left behind, so how
> does a shining face and a big frame make up for his dereliction of
> leadership duties?

220 years. I still have no satisfactory answer to the gazing-scene.

> 12. It's probably been discussed before (I'm sure I saw a thread on
> it a few years ago), but what does the 'living rock' of the gate of
> Alqualonde consist of?

"Living rock" is rock still part of the earth, never moved out,
never hacked away.

T.

ste...@nomail.com

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Dec 5, 2005, 5:18:17 PM12/5/05
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In rec.arts.books.tolkien Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> 8. Elwe may have been the tallest of the Children of Illuvatar
> (presumably at the time, since I can't see anyone significantly
> topping Elendil), but why did his friends accept him as King after he
> reappeared? They were evidently upset at being left behind, so how
> does a shining face and a big frame make up for his dereliction of
> leadership duties?

I have always assumed that Elwe was the tallest of the Children
of Iluvatar ever. I do not know if Tolkien had Elwe in mind
when he decided that Elendil was nearly 8 feet tall, but he
definitely thought of Elves as being tall, taller than men in
general.

Stephen

Yuk Tang

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Dec 5, 2005, 6:22:27 PM12/5/05
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ste...@nomail.com wrote in news:dn2eb9$ftv$1...@news.msu.edu:

UT says that Galadriel was about the height of a normal Numenorean,
about 6'4", with Celeborn ('silver-tall') around the same. And as
Celeborn's name suggests, he was considered tall among the Teleri.
In comparison, Elendil was around 7'6". I bet Numenor must have
dominated the inter-nation basketball competitions.

Otoh, Tolkien might have been drawing from the usually legendary
traditions of 'strongest', 'fastest', etc, and would have done better
if he'd left concrete numbers and measurements alone. Imagine if
Homer's Odyssey had contained footnotes relating how much treasure
had been carried away from Troy, how many talents and how much it
would be worth now considering the effects of inflation and the local
market.


--
Cheers, ymt.

Conrad Dunkerson

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Dec 5, 2005, 7:40:14 PM12/5/05
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ste...@nomail.com wrote:

> I have always assumed that Elwe was the tallest of the Children
> of Iluvatar ever.

Thingol was the tallest of the Eruhini, followed by Turgon (according to
some texts). We don't know where Elendil (at 7' 11") came in on the
'tallest' rankings.

Tar-Elenion

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Dec 5, 2005, 8:06:50 PM12/5/05
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In article <Xns9723EDC3AE5E9...@130.133.1.4>,
jim.l...@yahoo.com says...

> ste...@nomail.com wrote in news:dn2eb9$ftv$1...@news.msu.edu:
> > In rec.arts.books.tolkien Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> 8. Elwe may have been the tallest of the Children of Illuvatar
> >> (presumably at the time, since I can't see anyone significantly
> >> topping Elendil), but why did his friends accept him as King
> >> after he reappeared? They were evidently upset at being left
> >> behind, so how does a shining face and a big frame make up for
> >> his dereliction of leadership duties?
> >
> > I have always assumed that Elwe was the tallest of the Children
> > of Iluvatar ever. I do not know if Tolkien had Elwe in mind
> > when he decided that Elendil was nearly 8 feet tall, but he
> > definitely thought of Elves as being tall, taller than men in
> > general.
>
> UT says that Galadriel was about the height of a normal Numenorean,
> about 6'4", with Celeborn ('silver-tall') around the same. And as
> Celeborn's name suggests, he was considered tall among the Teleri.
> In comparison, Elendil was around 7'6". I bet Numenor must have
> dominated the inter-nation basketball competitions.

Elendil was closer to 7'11".
About the 6'4' height:
"Thus two rangar was often called "man-high", which at thirty-eight
inches gives an average height of six feet four inches; but this was at
a later date, when the stature of the Dunedain appears to have
decreased, and also was not intended to be an accurate statement of the
observed average of male stature among them".
NLM, UT

In PoME, Dwarves and Men, it notes:
"Hobbits on the other hand were in nearly all respects normal Men, but
of very short stature. They were called 'halflings'; but this refers to
the normal height of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar
(especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about
seven of our feet."

--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.

Leon Trollski

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Dec 5, 2005, 8:16:25 PM12/5/05
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"Yuk Tang" <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9723EDC3AE5E9...@130.133.1.4...

> UT says that Galadriel was about the height of a normal Numenorean,
> about 6'4", with Celeborn ('silver-tall') around the same. And as
> Celeborn's name suggests, he was considered tall among the Teleri.
> In comparison, Elendil was around 7'6". I bet Numenor must have
> dominated the inter-nation basketball competitions.


Not yet read all the Letters, is this in one of them? Or in UT? "Lesser"
modern folk of that height rarely live past their 20's, their hearts aren't
built to sustain such a body. One can imagine such a man casting fear even
on Sauron.


Yuk Tang

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Dec 5, 2005, 8:38:43 PM12/5/05
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"Leon Trollski" <fan...@netguy.net> wrote in
news:JD5lf.48576$ki.12883@pd7tw2no:

UT, in the section discussing the heights of Numenoreans and
halflings. Anyway, wasn't Sauron around 12' tall, encased in armour,
swinging a giant spiked club that delivers 5-30 pts of damage (no
save) to the front row with each blow? Luckily Isildur rolled a
critical hit just as Sauron was reaching for his throat, or the War
of the Last Alliance would have been lost.


--
Cheers, ymt.

ste...@nomail.com

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Dec 5, 2005, 9:02:19 PM12/5/05
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In rec.arts.books.tolkien Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ste...@nomail.com wrote in news:dn2eb9$ftv$1...@news.msu.edu:
>> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 8. Elwe may have been the tallest of the Children of Illuvatar
>>> (presumably at the time, since I can't see anyone significantly
>>> topping Elendil), but why did his friends accept him as King
>>> after he reappeared? They were evidently upset at being left
>>> behind, so how does a shining face and a big frame make up for
>>> his dereliction of leadership duties?
>>
>> I have always assumed that Elwe was the tallest of the Children
>> of Iluvatar ever. I do not know if Tolkien had Elwe in mind
>> when he decided that Elendil was nearly 8 feet tall, but he
>> definitely thought of Elves as being tall, taller than men in
>> general.

> UT says that Galadriel was about the height of a normal Numenorean,
> about 6'4", with Celeborn ('silver-tall') around the same. And as
> Celeborn's name suggests, he was considered tall among the Teleri.
> In comparison, Elendil was around 7'6". I bet Numenor must have
> dominated the inter-nation basketball competitions.

It would seem odd that Galadriel would be considered tall
for a woman and still be a foot and a half shorter than
her great-great-uncle. Perhaps Tolkien did intend for
Thingol to be only the tallest of the children of the
first age.

> Otoh, Tolkien might have been drawing from the usually legendary
> traditions of 'strongest', 'fastest', etc, and would have done better
> if he'd left concrete numbers and measurements alone.

He definitely drew from the usual legendary tradition that
people from long ago were generally bigger and better, so
the idea of Elwe, one of the earliest Elves, being the
tallest of all makes sense, rather than some johhny-come-lately
Numenorean.

Stephen

Glenn Holliday

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Dec 5, 2005, 10:32:08 PM12/5/05
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Yuk Tang wrote:
>
> 5. There was evidently quite a gap between the summons and the
> Teleri's response, a testament to the size of their host and
> rudimentary nature of their tribal structures. How great a part did
> the absence of Elwe play in this delay? Was the tribe that dependent
> on its leader?

Although time elapsed during the journey, this is still early
in the history of living beings figuring out what life is all
about. Losing Elwe was a significant change in the way their
life had been ordered. It was the first time this sort of
thing happened. The simplest response is to try to
return to the way things were before Elwe left - expressed
as waiting till they found him again.

> 10. The Noldor wished at times to get away from the light of the Two
> Trees and see the stars. How did Varda feel, to have her handiwork
> blotted out by that of Yavanna and Nienna?

Rationally, it's different works to satisfy different desires
at different times. The Valar probably suffer less from jealousy
than mortal artists do.

--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Stan Brown

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Dec 13, 2005, 4:57:11 PM12/13/05
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5 Dec 2005 21:39:51 GMT from Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com>:

> 8. Elwe may have been the tallest of the Children of Illuvatar
> (presumably at the time, since I can't see anyone significantly
> topping Elendil), but why did his friends accept him as King after he
> reappeared? They were evidently upset at being left behind, so how
> does a shining face and a big frame make up for his dereliction of
> leadership duties?

I would think having a goddess for his queen had a lot to do with it.

> 12. It's probably been discussed before (I'm sure I saw a thread on
> it a few years ago), but what does the 'living rock' of the gate of
> Alqualonde consist of?

"Living rock" means rock that has been carved where it was found,
rather than quarried and taken elsewhere. In other words, the gate
was formed by carving an existing rocky prominence

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm

R. Dan Henry

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Dec 27, 2005, 2:55:32 PM12/27/05
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On 5 Dec 2005 21:39:51 GMT, Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Cirdan, and Elwe's friends stayed behind looking for the tarrier,
>calling themselves the Eglath (the Forsaken)

Does this seem just a little whiny? Yes, the other's didn't wait forever
for them to decide to come along, but they chose to remain behind. No
need to immortalize a minor, quasi-imaginary slight as the name of their
people.

>Ulmo stopped the island transporting the Teleri just short of Aman at
>the behest of Osse,

That of the Teleri, actually, also Osse may have suggested the idea. We
are told only that he called to them, not the content of his call. It
may just have been a farewell message until the Teleri decided they'd
like to be islanders.

>The Noldor erected a hill named Tuna in the long valley

The text says that "the Eldar" did it. That includes the Vanyar. The
Teleri may be counted out because of their island-dwelling, but I think
some Vanyar must have been involved or it would simply say that the
Noldor did it. Of course, it is likely that the Noldor would have led in
an engineering feat.



>The Valar often came to visit the Elves, particularly Aule and his
>people.

Aule was especially involved with the Noldor specifically. Manwe and
Varda got along better with the Vanyar. One assume Ulmo occasionally
checked on the Teleri, and at least Celegorm liked to pal around with
Orome.

>Yavanna made them a replica of Telperion, Galathilion, alike
>to the White Tree except it did not emit light.

And I think it was smaller, too. Hence, "lesser image" -- I don't think
that "lesser" is meant to indicate that it doesn't glow, since that is
specifically described. And we get a list of lineage following the
descendants of Telperion down to Nimloth. He really should have drawn up
a "family tree" for this line. :-)

>The Teleri were happy for a time on Tol Eressea, but even Osse's
>mercurial company must have palled over time, and they looked towards
>the other Elves on the mainland. Osse taught them shipbuilding, and
>they crossed the bay to make their home on its shores. They renewed
>their acquaintances with their Noldorin friends, and founded the city
>of Alqualonde (Swanhaven) with their help.

Oh, you fools! If only you knew!

>Points to discuss
>
>1. The seas in the north were filled with ice because of the frosts
>of Melkor. Was this climate explained in the creation myth, or was
>it colder there because it was closer to Angband? If so, was it
>similarly cold in the extreme south?

It's cold because Melkor makes it so. Whether this has anything to do
with Angband or Utumno being near, I can't say. We certainly have no
knowledge of extreme southern climate, or even the general temperature
of the dark Middle-earth under the stars.

>2. The Elves were originally afraid of and overawed by the Great Sea
>when they first saw it, but Ulmo's overtures convinced them that the
>Sea was friendly and not to be feared. So the love of water wasn't
>ingrained, but was taught, at least among the Vanyar and Noldor.

Well, there's a big difference between rivers and lakes and the big,
wide sea. Don't forget that these guys were a bit nervous to begin with,
too. A long, strange journey to an unknown place to live with mostly
unknown, but obviously powerful, beings. Then there is this remarkable
barrier, impassible by known means, full of unpredictable and sometime
violent behavior. I am rather fond of chocolate, but a whole ocean of it
would give me pause.

>3. Ulmo came the the Quendi after counsel with the other Valar. As
>mentioned later in the chapter, he didn't advocate migrating the
>Elves to Aman, but he became the prime mover (in more ways than one)
>in the events that followed. One wonders if he ever griped about the
>lazy so-sos who asked the Elves to join them in their land yet never
>lifted a finger to help.

My response to an early chapter already records my observations on the
laziness of the Valar. (I haven't sent it yet, because I'm waiting to
send all my catching-up at once, including my own chapter discussion
starter.) I always thought Ulmo came across the best of all the Valar.

>4. The Teleri missed the summons because they were in the east of
>Beleriand. If they were indeed lovers of water, why did they dwell
>so far from the sea?

They were slow movers. They'd been lagging behind for some time and
without Elwe there to push them on, they would tend to stay put. They
were, after all, there at all because they chose to follow him. There
are many rivers, likely with some waterfall, and a lake to the east of
Beleriand. Since they hadn't reached the sea yet, they had no reason to
think "Why are we dwelling so far from the sea?" for a long time.
Eventually, I suppose, word would have drifted back to them. But they
were also disinclined to move while their leader was missing.

>6. The Teleri came to love the sea after being befriended by Osse
>and Uinen, who taught them sea-lore and sea-music. Yet he only
>taught them the craft of shipbuilding later on, when they made the
>crossing from Tol Eressea. How would they have learned sea-lore if
>they didn't have ships?

By listening to Osse and Uinen. Most of what there is to know about the
sea is not to be learned by sailing around on its surface -- only once
advanced submarine technology was developed did we really start to learn
about the still-mysterious sea. Sailors mainly learn about the sky --
weather and astronomy. Also, they likely learned to swim and dive at
this time (they later dive for pearls off Aman).

>7. Osse was displeased by the Teleri's later summons as his remit
>was limited to the seas near ME. Did the Valar still not fully trust
>him after his rebellion and his known temper, and wanted him as far
>away from them as possible?

I think it had nothing to do with Osse. The best way to keep them from
Osse for a long time would have been to let them slowly spread across
Middle-earth. What's mysterious is why they didn't keep trying to get
all the Teleri across once Thingol reappeared. Maybe Ulmo finally said,
"No more. Do it yourself if you want it done." Then Valar laziness took
over, combined with being happy with all the little Elves they already
had under foot.

>8. Elwe may have been the tallest of the Children of Illuvatar
>(presumably at the time, since I can't see anyone significantly
>topping Elendil)

Why do you say that? I don't recall Elendil spending a couple of
centuries in an enchantment with a Maia, only to emerge "as it were a
lord of the Maiar". And it is only at this point that he is described as
"tallest of all the Children of Iluvatar". I think he got a growth
spurt.

>, but why did his friends accept him as King after he
>reappeared? They were evidently upset at being left behind, so how
>does a shining face and a big frame make up for his dereliction of
>leadership duties?

Wrong question. Why would those who felt strongly enough attached to
Elwe to remain behind while the other Teleri departed Middle-Earth then
reject their leader upon his return? "Oh, we thought maybe you'd just
eaten some bad berries and been drunk. Now we learn you were enchanted
and came back more impressive than ever with a demi-goddess for a wife.
Screw you, Greymantle! We're following, uh, well not our alternative
leader, because he left, but maybe Cirdan can use some more hands." No,
I just can't see that.

>9. Ulmo wasn't a fan of bringing the Elves to Valinor, and he
>sympathised with Osse's longing for his little friends. ISTM that in
>the Silm, Ulmo is the only Vala to empathise and sympathise with the
>lug that is Osse.

When do the other Valar interact with Osse?

>11. Tirion was built to house both Noldor and Vanyar. So what
>happened when the Vanyar moved out?

The housing bubble burst and real estate speculators lost a bundle.

>Did newer generations of Noldor
>move in, or did they keep the houses empty in case the original
>inhabitants decided to move back?

Probably the kids filled them up. And probably some were set aside as
guest houses for Vanyar or Teleri visitors (maybe even some of the Maiar
would have liked to have a place if staying for a prolonged teaching
visit).

>13. Why was Ingwe High King of the Eldar?

If I were guessing, I'd say because he had the best leadership skills.
He was the only one who convinced all of his people to follow him to
Aman, the other two leaders only got "most" of theirs to follow.

--
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com

Kristian Damm Jensen

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Dec 29, 2005, 4:10:35 PM12/29/05
to
R. Dan Henry wrote:
> On 5 Dec 2005 21:39:51 GMT, Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Cirdan, and Elwe's friends stayed behind looking for the tarrier,
>> calling themselves the Eglath (the Forsaken)
>
> Does this seem just a little whiny? Yes, the other's didn't wait
> forever for them to decide to come along, but they chose to remain
> behind. No need to immortalize a minor, quasi-imaginary slight as the
> name of their people.

Funny, how you can interpret things in different ways. I always interpreted
this as "forsaken by their leader" (i.e. Elwë).

Regards,
Kristian


R. Dan Henry

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Dec 30, 2005, 12:41:11 AM12/30/05
to

I suppose that's possible, but they have no idea why he's missing and
the most likely conclusion would be that he had fallen afoul of one of
the dangerous beasts, nor would it explain why they continued to look
for him if they thought he had abandoned them. (Why then would he even
be in that area?)

Dirk Thierbach

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Jan 8, 2006, 11:07:47 AM1/8/06
to
Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Falathrim (the Haven-Elves),

Shouldn't that be "Coast-Elves", or something similar? AFAIK,
/falas/ has the meaning "shore, beach". Where does the translation
"Haven" come from?

> Points to discuss

Interesting points, but I am afraid I cannot contribute much.

> 13. Why was Ingwe High King of the Eldar?

I can only try at an external reason. Shippey writes in RtME:

[Tolkien's] aim seems to have been to see Ing, like Eriol, as an
eponymous founder of the English, who was 'first seen by men among
the East-Danes' (i.e. near where the English originated), but then
went away 'eastwards over the waves' (Tolkien would probably have
preferred this to be 'westwards'); but to make the semi-divine Ing,
unlike Eriol, an elf and a lord of Valinor. Again, though Tolkien
kept on flirting with elvish names like Ingwe, Ingil [...], or
Ingolonde [...], he could not quite make a satisfactory connection.
Yet it is clear enough what he was looking for [...]: a mighty patron
for his country, a foundation-myth more far reaching then Hengest
and Horsa, one on to which he could graft his own stories.

It also looks like he kept shifting Ingwe, Elwe, Olwe etc around; but
I guess those who know HoME better then me should explain this.

- Dirk

Yuk Tang

unread,
Jan 8, 2006, 12:43:22 PM1/8/06
to
Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@usenet.arcornews.de> wrote in
news:2006010816074...@dthierbach.news.arcor.de:
> Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Falathrim (the Haven-Elves),
>
> Shouldn't that be "Coast-Elves", or something similar? AFAIK,
> /falas/ has the meaning "shore, beach". Where does the translation
> "Haven" come from?

My creative mind. 'Lond', not 'falas' is haven.


>> Points to discuss
>
> Interesting points, but I am afraid I cannot contribute much.
>
>> 13. Why was Ingwe High King of the Eldar?
>
> I can only try at an external reason. Shippey writes in RtME:
>
> [Tolkien's] aim seems to have been to see Ing, like Eriol, as an
> eponymous founder of the English, who was 'first seen by men
> among the East-Danes' (i.e. near where the English originated),
> but then went away 'eastwards over the waves' (Tolkien would
> probably have preferred this to be 'westwards'); but to make the
> semi-divine Ing, unlike Eriol, an elf and a lord of Valinor.
> Again, though Tolkien kept on flirting with elvish names like
> Ingwe, Ingil [...], or Ingolonde [...], he could not quite make
> a satisfactory connection. Yet it is clear enough what he was
> looking for [...]: a mighty patron for his country, a
> foundation-myth more far reaching then Hengest and Horsa, one on
> to which he could graft his own stories.
>
> It also looks like he kept shifting Ingwe, Elwe, Olwe etc around;
> but I guess those who know HoME better then me should explain
> this.

I think JRRT may have written about Chinwe, who abandoned the journey
early on and actually went east of Cuivienen, settling around two
river valleys. His people were renowned as farmers, but didn't care
much for the sea, except for the great adventurer Japwe who set off
into the east with a bunch of fellow explorers. Meanwhile elves from
the three kindreds who wished to praise Eru in their own way sailed
west from Aman into the encircling sea, following their leader
Yankwe.


--
Cheers, ymt.

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Jan 8, 2006, 1:59:10 PM1/8/06
to
Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@usenet.arcornews.de> wrote in

<snip>

>> It also looks like he kept shifting Ingwe, Elwe, Olwe etc around;
>> but I guess those who know HoME better then me should explain
>> this.
>
> I think JRRT may have written about Chinwe, who abandoned the journey
> early on and actually went east of Cuivienen, settling around two
> river valleys. His people were renowned as farmers, but didn't care
> much for the sea, except for the great adventurer Japwe who set off
> into the east with a bunch of fellow explorers. Meanwhile elves from
> the three kindreds who wished to praise Eru in their own way sailed
> west from Aman into the encircling sea, following their leader
> Yankwe.

Are you yanking our chain?


Troels Forchhammer

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Jan 8, 2006, 2:14:19 PM1/8/06
to
In message <news:O55lf.4731$567.1228@trnddc01>
Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> enriched us with:
>
> ste...@nomail.com wrote:
>>
>> I have always assumed that Elwe was the tallest of the Children
>> of Iluvatar ever.
>
> Thingol was the tallest of the Eruhini,

That does seem a definite thing.

> followed by Turgon (according to some texts).

Do you recall where?

> We don't know where Elendil (at 7' 11") came in on the 'tallest'
> rankings.

Do we allow modern contesters? ;-)

The tallest man recorded was 8'11.1" and he died in 1940.
<www.guinnessworldrecords.com/content_pages/record.asp?recordid=48409>

Though in this case it was, IIRC, an abnormality that caused the great
height, I don't think it is particularly incredible that both Elwë and
Turgon were more than 8 feet (and, if we allow for Mr Wadlow, more,
even, than nine feet).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was
standing on the shoulders of giants.
- Sir Isaac Newton

Tar-Elenion

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Jan 8, 2006, 2:23:38 PM1/8/06
to
In article <Xns9745CDDD...@130.133.1.4>,
Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid says...

> In message <news:O55lf.4731$567.1228@trnddc01>
> Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> enriched us with:
> >
> > ste...@nomail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> I have always assumed that Elwe was the tallest of the Children
> >> of Iluvatar ever.
> >
> > Thingol was the tallest of the Eruhini,
>
> That does seem a definite thing.
>
> > followed by Turgon (according to some texts).
>
> Do you recall where?

See UT, Of Tuor:
"Now Turgon himself would appear, "tallest of all the Children of the
World, save Thingol," with a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone (ivory)
sheath, and welcome Tuor."

In /The Shibboleth of Feanor/ it is said that the brother of Turgon and
Fingon was taller than Turgon however:
"Arakano was the tallest of the brothers and the most impetuous, but his
name was never changed to Sindarin form, for he perished in the first
battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks, the Battle of the Lammoth..."

Troels Forchhammer

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Jan 8, 2006, 3:01:26 PM1/8/06
to
In message <news:43950625...@acm.org>
Glenn Holliday <holl...@acm.org> enriched us with:
>
> Yuk Tang wrote:
>>
>> 5. There was evidently quite a gap between the summons and
>> the Teleri's response,
[...]

>> How great a part did the absence of Elwe play in this delay?
>> Was the tribe that dependent on its leader?

I'm not entirely sure what Tolkien's final idea was, with respect to
how the leaders were chosen, but the stories I've seen all contain an
element of Pre-ordination or Fate: as if the leadership of Ingwė,
Finwė and Elwė (later Olwė) was decided by Eru himself. In other
words, I think that the reticence of the 'Forsaken' is possibly the
more natural -- the Teleri were meant to follow Elwė.

> Although time elapsed during the journey, this is still early
> in the history of living beings figuring out what life is all
> about. Losing Elwe was a significant change in the way their
> life had been ordered.

Definitely.

> It was the first time this sort of thing happened.

. . . for one of the leaders, if we are to believe the stories about
people getting lost and not coming back already while they dwelt at
Cuiviénen.

> The simplest response is to try to return to the way things were
> before Elwe left - expressed as waiting till they found him again.

Indeed.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the
world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!
- Aragorn, /The Lord of the Rings/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)

Troels Forchhammer

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Jan 8, 2006, 3:27:39 PM1/8/06
to
In message <news:MPG.1e090dbdb...@news.individual.net>
Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> enriched us with:
>
> 5 Dec 2005 21:39:51 GMT from Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com>:
>>
[...]

>> so how does a shining face and a big frame make up for
>> his dereliction of leadership duties?
>
> I would think having a goddess for his queen had a lot to do with
> it.

;-)

It might even beat having a god for a father . . . (the Danish royal
line is purportedly descended from Odin, though I do have some slight
doubts about that claim <G>)



>> 12. It's probably been discussed before (I'm sure I saw a thread
>> on it a few years ago), but what does the 'living rock' of the
>> gate of Alqualonde consist of?
>
> "Living rock" means rock that has been carved where it was found,
> rather than quarried and taken elsewhere.

living rock - Rock that is carved or in some other way
used in situ. Often said of sculpture or architecture
carved from rock that is so huge it could never have been
moved anyway.
<http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/Li.html>

Which is, of course, basically what you said ;-)

I wonder if still being attached to bedrock is, if not an actual
requirement, then, perhaps, 'normally implied'?

> In other words, the gate was formed by carving an existing
> rocky prominence

Well, in LQ (MR), it is said that 'The gate of that harbour was an
arch of living rock sea-carven,' which I read as it being a natural
feature altogether (or possibly a natural arch, which the Elves
improved upon).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

"What're quantum mechanics?"
"I don't know. People who repair quantums, I suppose."
- /Eric/ (Terry Pratchett)

Stan Brown

unread,
Jan 8, 2006, 10:41:57 PM1/8/06
to
Sun, 8 Jan 2006 17:07:47 +0100 from Dirk Thierbach
<dthie...@usenet.arcornews.de>:

> Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Falathrim (the Haven-Elves),
>
> Shouldn't that be "Coast-Elves", or something similar? AFAIK,
> /falas/ has the meaning "shore, beach". Where does the translation
> "Haven" come from?

"Haven" = "harbor". It seems quite unfamiliar to us in the US, but I
think it's more common in England. BTW, "havn" (no e) = "harbor" in
Danish, so I suspect that's the origin of the English word. [pause]
No, my AHD4 says it's from Old English "hæfen".

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA

Dirk Thierbach

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Jan 9, 2006, 3:01:49 AM1/9/06
to
Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think JRRT may have written about Chinwe, who abandoned the journey
> early on and actually went east of Cuivienen, settling around two
> river valleys. His people were renowned as farmers, but didn't care
> much for the sea, except for the great adventurer Japwe who set off
> into the east with a bunch of fellow explorers.

You mean Tolkien originally wanted to write a mytholgy for, ugh, Eastland?
Don't let you-know-who hear that...

- Dirk

Troels Forchhammer

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Jan 10, 2006, 3:45:12 PM1/10/06
to
In message <news:olnsq1979g7p7iji0...@4ax.com> R. Dan
Henry <danh...@inreach.com> enriched us with:
>
> On 5 Dec 2005 21:39:51 GMT, Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>

Re-instating from the introduction where I have additional comments.

>> Cirdan, and Elwe's friends stayed behind looking for the tarrier,
>> calling themselves the Eglath (the Forsaken)
>
> Does this seem just a little whiny?

I've never really thought about it until this thread, but yes, there
does seem to be an accusation underlying that choice of name.

I suppose they could just as well have called themselves 'the
Faithful', implying that Olwė's people were unfaithful to Elwė.

It surprised me that nobody mentioned 'fain' ;-)
Of course the meaning, 'gladly', is clear in the context, but it's
not exactly a word I recall running into all that much (it doesn't
seem to appear in LotR as far as I can see, subject to the usual
reservations regarding the quality of my OCR SW).

It is apparently related to 'fawn' (which original meaning was
apparently 'to make glad or happy'), and is Old English, from
Icelandic (according to my dictionary).

>> Ulmo stopped the island transporting the Teleri just short of Aman
>> at the behest of Osse,
>
> That of the Teleri, actually, also Osse may have suggested the
> idea. We are told only that he called to them, not the content of
> his call. It may just have been a farewell message until the
> Teleri decided they'd like to be islanders.

To Ossė is given the task of making the island fast and '[rooting] it
to the foundations of the sea.' I imagine he did that gladly, and
that he made sure Tol Eressėa wouldn't move again :-)

>> The Noldor erected a hill named Tuna in the long valley
>
> The text says that "the Eldar" did it. That includes the Vanyar.
> The Teleri may be counted out because of their island-dwelling,
> but I think some Vanyar must have been involved or it would simply
> say that the Noldor did it. Of course, it is likely that the
> Noldor would have led in an engineering feat.

Am I alone in finding this feat of the Eldar quite impressive?

Tirion wasn't exactly a small hamlet, so Tśna must have been quite
large. I somehow doubt that the Noldor began by inventing the shovel
;-)

>> The Vanyar and Noldor lived together in Tirion, and one of its
>> main landmarks was Ingwe's tower, the Mindon Eldalieva (Tower of
>> the Elves).

Earlier called 'Ingwemindon' to stress the ownership, I suppose. I
haven't traced this further, but did Ingwe remove to Taniquetil (or
the equivalent) in the versions where the tower bore his name (in
Tśna upon Kōr -- interesting how elements of names reappear in the
different stages: Tśna starting as the name of the town and then
becoming the name of the hill, and Dirk has already mentioned the
Ing- names).

>> The Valar often came to visit the Elves, particularly Aule and his
>> people.
>
> Aule was especially involved with the Noldor specifically.

And 'Fėanor and his sons [...]. Often they were guests in the halls
of Aulė;' No surprise, I suppose, but still . . . ;-)

> Manwe and Varda got along better with the Vanyar.

Which I assume is related also to the last question.

> One assume Ulmo occasionally checked on the Teleri,

Otherwise I'm sure Ossė and Uinen did.

> and at least Celegorm liked to pal around with Orome.

Which apparently earned him a fine hunting hound . . .

Another of these little details which doesn't in themselves exactly
foreshadow later developments, but still is providing a foundation
for the later development. In this case this little piece of
information -- half a sentence -- provides the basis for Celegorm
possessing the wolf-hound Huan, to whom, as we all know, was given to
speak three times before he died, and who wasn't to die until he met
the largest wolf ever to walk on earth.

>> Yavanna made them a replica of Telperion, Galathilion, alike to
>> the White Tree except it did not emit light.
>
> And I think it was smaller, too. Hence, "lesser image" -- I don't
> think that "lesser" is meant to indicate that it doesn't glow,
> since that is specifically described. And we get a list of lineage
> following the descendants of Telperion down to Nimloth. He really
> should have drawn up a "family tree" for this line. :-)

I wonder when this, the descendants of Telperion, entered into the
mythology? I suspect that it was after this line grew out of the
telling of the Lord of the Rings; that this element entered to
explain Gandalf's words to Aragorn regarding the lineage of the White
Tree of Gondor.

The tree in Tirion, Yavanna's gift, is present in the post-LotR
versions, The Annals of Aman and the Later Quenta, but not in the
Quenta Noldorinwa, but I haven't The Lost Road to check if it should
be in the Quenta Silmarillion from the mid-thirties (i.e. just prior
to LotR).


>> Aule taught the Noldor his craft, and they eventually found gems
>> in their travails, which they freely gave to the other Elves.

This deserves a mention, if only because it serves as a kind of
foreshadowing by contrast of Fėanor's later avarice.

>> The Teleri were happy for a time on Tol Eressea, but even Osse's
>> mercurial company must have palled over time, and they looked
>> towards the other Elves on the mainland. Osse taught them
>> shipbuilding, and they crossed the bay to make their home on its
>> shores. They renewed their acquaintances with their Noldorin
>> friends, and founded the city of Alqualonde (Swanhaven) with their
>> help.
>
> Oh, you fools! If only you knew!

Yes. The scene is now being set for the kinslaying -- as it has been
from the first we heard of the special friendship between Elwė and
Finwė.

>> Points to discuss
>>
>> 1. The seas in the north were filled with ice because of the
>> frosts of Melkor. Was this climate explained in the creation
>> myth, or was it colder there because it was closer to Angband? If
>> so, was it similarly cold in the extreme south?
>
> It's cold because Melkor makes it so.

Yes. The attribution of 'bitter cold immoderate' and 'heats and fire
without restraint' to Melkor is present already in the Ainulindalė,
but (of course) without locating it.

> Whether this has anything to do with Angband or Utumno being near,
> I can't say.

Indirectly, probably. Both the cold and the fortresses are in the
North because that was where Melkor chose to reside, and it was from
there he 'often walked abroad, in many shapes of power and fear, and
he wielded cold and fire' in the words of chapter 1.

>> 2. The Elves were originally afraid of and overawed by the Great
>> Sea when they first saw it, but Ulmo's overtures convinced them
>> that the Sea was friendly and not to be feared. So the love of
>> water wasn't ingrained, but was taught, at least among the Vanyar
>> and Noldor.
>
> Well, there's a big difference between rivers and lakes and the
> big, wide sea. Don't forget that these guys were a bit nervous to
> begin with, too. A long, strange journey to an unknown place to
> live with mostly unknown, but obviously powerful, beings. Then
> there is this remarkable barrier, impassible by known means, full
> of unpredictable and sometime violent behavior. I am rather fond
> of chocolate, but a whole ocean of it would give me pause.

;-)

We have, already in chapter 3, the Nandor.

Those were the Nandor; and they became a people apart,
unlike their kin, save that they loved water, and dwelt
most beside falls and running streams.

So yes, this love of 'water' appears different than the longing for
the sea that is instilled by Ulmo's horns ('those to whom that music
comes hear it ever after in their hearts, and longing for the sea
never leaves them again.' Valaquenta) or the love of the sea that the
Falathrim learned from Ossė.

Then there is the migration towards the west of Middle-earth by good
Men -- a 'west-longing', so to speak (mirrored, ages later, by e.g.
the Hobbits, who also appears to have migrated slowly, but ever
westwards). This doesn't seem related to water or the sea, but simply
to a rumour of the powers that dwell in the west, or possibly even
something deeper (in the case of the Hobbits) that simply made good
people seek westwards in Middle-earth.

Still, water seems to be a common motif on par with trees in
Tolkien's books, and I've wondered where that comes from.

I've been looking in /Letters/ for traces of a love for the sea, but
the results are meagre. There are indications that Tolkien did like
the sea (e.g. commenting how a house 'in sight of the sea proves too
vastly expensive'), but nothing even approaching his well-known love
for trees (which, perhaps, reached its fictional epitome in Leaf by
Niggle), unless it is in his dream about the Wave.

Am I missing something, or is there any information elsewhere about
Tolkien's attitude towards the sea?

<snip>

>> 13. Why was Ingwe High King of the Eldar?
>
> If I were guessing, I'd say because he had the best leadership
> skills. He was the only one who convinced all of his people to
> follow him to Aman, the other two leaders only got "most" of
> theirs to follow.

I would guess that proximity to power also had something to do with
it. Manwė was the Lord of the West, and Ingwė was the Elven-king that
was closest to Manwė, hence he became the High King.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Giving in is no defeat.
Passing on is no retreat.
Selves are made to rise above.
You shall live in what you love.
- Piet Hein, /The Me Above the Me/

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Jan 10, 2006, 5:03:16 PM1/10/06
to
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> In message news:olnsq1979g7p7iji0...@4ax.com
> R. Dan Henry <danh...@inreach.com> enriched us with:

<snip>

>> and at least Celegorm liked to pal around with Orome.
>
> Which apparently earned him a fine hunting hound . . .
>
> Another of these little details which doesn't in themselves exactly
> foreshadow later developments, but still is providing a foundation
> for the later development. In this case this little piece of
> information -- half a sentence -- provides the basis for Celegorm
> possessing the wolf-hound Huan, to whom, as we all know, was given to
> speak three times before he died, and who wasn't to die until he met
> the largest wolf ever to walk on earth.

"mightiest", not largest.

Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> In message news:olnsq1979g7p7iji0...@4ax.com
> R. Dan Henry <danh...@inreach.com> enriched us with:
>> On 5 Dec 2005 21:39:51 GMT, Yuk Tang jim.l...@yahoo.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yavanna made them a replica of Telperion, Galathilion, alike to
>>> the White Tree except it did not emit light.
>>
>> And I think it was smaller, too. Hence, "lesser image" -- I don't
>> think that "lesser" is meant to indicate that it doesn't glow,
>> since that is specifically described. And we get a list of lineage
>> following the descendants of Telperion down to Nimloth. He really
>> should have drawn up a "family tree" for this line. :-)
>
> I wonder when this, the descendants of Telperion, entered into the
> mythology? I suspect that it was after this line grew out of the
> telling of the Lord of the Rings; that this element entered to
> explain Gandalf's words to Aragorn regarding the lineage of the White
> Tree of Gondor.

I seem to recall something about this in Reader's Companion. Will try
and look later, unless someone else can look it up (probably in the
chapter 'The Steward and the King').

<snip>

> Still, water seems to be a common motif on par with trees in
> Tolkien's books, and I've wondered where that comes from.
>
> I've been looking in /Letters/ for traces of a love for the sea, but
> the results are meagre. There are indications that Tolkien did like
> the sea (e.g. commenting how a house 'in sight of the sea proves too
> vastly expensive'), but nothing even approaching his well-known love
> for trees (which, perhaps, reached its fictional epitome in Leaf by
> Niggle), unless it is in his dream about the Wave.
>
> Am I missing something, or is there any information elsewhere about
> Tolkien's attitude towards the sea?

I seem to remember something about Tolkien going on a walking holiday
down in the West Country (Devon, Cornwall) and being very impressed by
the grandeur of the cliffs and the power of the sea. Maybe it's in
Biography.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Christopher Kreuzer

unread,
Jan 11, 2006, 4:07:30 AM1/11/06
to
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>> In message news:olnsq1979g7p7iji0...@4ax.com
>> R. Dan Henry <danh...@inreach.com> enriched us with:
>>> On 5 Dec 2005 21:39:51 GMT, Yuk Tang jim.l...@yahoo.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yavanna made them a replica of Telperion, Galathilion, alike to
>>>> the White Tree except it did not emit light.
>>>
>>> And I think it was smaller, too. Hence, "lesser image" -- I don't
>>> think that "lesser" is meant to indicate that it doesn't glow,
>>> since that is specifically described. And we get a list of lineage
>>> following the descendants of Telperion down to Nimloth. He really
>>> should have drawn up a "family tree" for this line. :-)
>>
>> I wonder when this, the descendants of Telperion, entered into the
>> mythology? I suspect that it was after this line grew out of the
>> telling of the Lord of the Rings; that this element entered to
>> explain Gandalf's words to Aragorn regarding the lineage of the White
>> Tree of Gondor.

From what I've read and summarised below, you are absolutely correct to
say this. This does seem to have been back-written into the Silmarillion
from LotR.

Another example of a passage concerning the trees that did not get
emended (retaining the 'seed/fruit' lineage, rather than
'image/memorial' lineage), is this passage: "There in the courts of the
King grew a white tree, from the seed of that tree which Isildur brought
over the deep waters, and the seed of that tree before came from
Eressëa, and before that out of the Uttermost West in the Day before
days when the world was young." (The Council of Elrond), which I was
directed to by footnote 7, chapter 5, volume 10, HoME.

> I seem to recall something about this in Reader's Companion. Will try
> and look later, unless someone else can look it up (probably in the
> chapter 'The Steward and the King').

Yes, it is RC: 637. At the end of the lengthy note (which does include a
sort of family tree), you are referred to /Peoples of Middle-earth/
pages 147-9.

The note explains that there is no problem with Telperion or Nimloth. It
is quite clear what they are from the passage in LotR (where Gandalf
refers to Nimloth, Galathilion and Telperion as the lineage of the
seedling that he and Aragorn find in the snows above Minas Tirith). The
problem seems to be Galathilion:

"In 'Silmarillion' writings prior to LotR, there is no mention of any
sapling, fruit, memorial or image of Telperion." (RC: 637) (*)

a) Hammond and Scull go on to point out that an early Akallabeth text
"as emended" included a reference to Galathilion as the White Tree that
grew in Eressea, and was a seedling of Teleperion.

b) A later emendment of this Akallabeth text then made Galathilion an
image or memorial of Telperion, and moved it to Tirion on Tuna. The
White Tree of Eressea (though not named here) is now called Celeborn.
This version of Akallabeth is also consistent with the lineage reported
in chapter 5 of QS as published (see footnote below).

Hammond and Scull report that Christopher Tolkien (as is published in
/Peoples of Middle-earth/) concluded that the passage in the "first
phase" (labelled 'a' above) is consistent with the passage in LotR, and
that Tolkien's revision of the history of the White Trees (to make
Galathilion the Tree of Tuna) was not carried through to LotR. In other
words (my words now), the passage in LotR is one of those that needed
updating, which Tolkien seems to have missed.

(*) In the Silmarillion as published, there seem to be four references
to images of Telperion, and from Hammond and Scull's note above, I
assume that the passages here were all written after LotR:

1) "Yavanna made for them a tree like to a lesser image of Telperion,
save that it did not give light of its own being; Galathilion it was
named in the Sindarin tongue." (Of Eldamar and the Princes of the
Eldalie)

2) "...in the courts of Turgon stood images of the Trees of old, which
Turgon himself wrought with elven-craft; and the Tree which he made of
gold was named Glingal, and the Tree whose flowers he made of silver was
named Belthil." (Of the Noldor in Beleriand)

3) "And a seedling they brought of Celeborn, the White Tree that grew in
the midst of Eressea; and that was in its turn a seedling of Galathilion
the Tree of Tuna, the image of Telperion that Yavanna gave to the Eldar
in the Blessed Realm." (Akallabeth)

4) "...Nimloth was in its turn descended from the Tree of Tirion, that
was an image of the Eldest of Trees, White Telperion which Yavanna
caused to grow in the land of the Valar." (Of the Rings of Power and the
Third Age)

Can anyone confirm whether these passages were added to the Silmarillion
writings _after_ LotR? I've looked in the HoME books, but am not sure if
I missed something.

I've looked at the relevant passages in PoME (p.147-9) and they confirm
that passage 1 and 3 were written around 1951, after LoTR was completed
but before it was published.

I'm not sure where the history of 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third
Age' (RoP) appears in HoME (if it does), but I would hope it is safe to
assume that this text (RoP), and hence passage 4 above, is contemporary
with the composition of LotR.

Now I'm trying to track down the history of pasage 2 above. The
reference to images of Telperion and Laurelin in Gondolin. I've looked
up Bethil and Glingal in the HoME index volume, and it seems that
Belthil appears as early as HoME volume II (the second part of the Book
of Lost Tales), as does Glingol (early name of Glingal). The reference
is page 207 of HoME II, from which it seems that Glingal and Belthil in
the published Silmarillion were images fashioned by Turgon from precious
metals, but in the earlier version (I think he means in BoLT, but I'm
not certain) were "shoots of old from the glorious Trees of Valinor".
There are definitely references in BoLT to shoots of these trees
('Coming of the Elves', HoME I, 123).

So does all these references to offshoots of the Trees appearing in BoLT
mean that that the original statement by Hammond and Scull is wrong?

"In 'Silmarillion' writings prior to LotR, there is no mention of any
sapling, fruit, memorial or image of Telperion." (RC: 637)

Or does it mean that BoLT is not Silmarillion writings? I vaguely seem
to remember that the Gondolin parts of the Silmarillion were left
unchanged from the BoLT stories, and only taken up again later. Possibly
after LotR. And this may be what Hammond and Scull mean. Can anyone
clarify this?

Tar-Elenion

unread,
Jan 11, 2006, 10:38:35 AM1/11/06
to
In article <mV3xf.24373$iz3....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
<snips>

> I'm not sure where the history of 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third
> Age' (RoP) appears in HoME (if it does), but I would hope it is safe to
> assume that this text (RoP), and hence passage 4 above, is contemporary
> with the composition of LotR.

It's history does not appear in HoME. It seems to have been wrtten prior
to 1948 (JRRT is distressed to be unable to find it in that year, see
Letter 115). However there is something in (I think) HoME that led me to
believe there are multiple versions of RoP, but I don't recall where
exactly now.

Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message

unread,
Jan 19, 2006, 2:21:02 PM1/19/06
to
> Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I think JRRT may have written about Chinwe, who abandoned the journey
>> early on and actually went east of Cuivienen, settling around two
>> river valleys. His people were renowned as farmers, but didn't care
>> much for the sea, except for the great adventurer Japwe who set off
>> into the east with a bunch of fellow explorers.

Good thing there's no country called Segland... I mean, the
clock in _The Hobbit_ is anachronistic enough...

--Jamie. (Celebrating (?) 20 years on Usenet!)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)

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