"What is a katra" revisited
Dr Maggie Hellstroem, GSI Darmstadt
Greetings to you all and my best wishes for a prosperous 1997!
As a part of the discussion of what a _katra_ is (started by
our own McCoy, if I'm not mistaken...), I thought it might be
a good idea to reiterate what was said by Sarek on the subject
in ST:TSFS. For this reason, I checked out the relevant scene
in the film of that scene in Kirk's appartment just after the
Enterprise returned back to Earth. A good thing, too - my memory
is just as fallible as that of most other Humans ;-), and I was
surprised at how little of it I had remembered correctly...
Anyway, below is an attempt at transcribing the scene - any
spelling or transcription mistakes are of course mine ;-)
Peace and long life!
Maggie
The Sarek & Kirk scene from Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
---------------------------------------------------------------
(No infringement of Viacom's or Paramount's copyright intended.)
[Sarek has just arrived unannounced to Kirk's San
Fransisco appartment...]
Kirk: "Ambassador, I would have come to Vulcan to express my
deepest sympathies."
Sarek: "Spare me your Human platitudes, Kirk. I have been to
your government, I have seen the Genesis information and
your own report."
Kirk: "Then you know how bravely your son met his death."
Sarek: [angrily] "_Why_ did you leave him on Genesis? Spock
trusted you, and you denied him his future."
Kirk: [surprised] "I saw no future."
Sarek: "Only his _body_ was in death, Kirk. And _you_ were the
last one to be with him."
Kirk: [confused] "Yes, I was."
Sarek: "Then you _must_ have known that you should have come
with him to Vulcan."
Kirk: "But why?"
Sarek: "Because he _asked_ you to. He entrusted you... with his
very essence. With everything that was not of the body.
He _asked_ you to bring him to us. And to bring that
which he gave to you: his _katra_, his living spirit."
Kirk: [seriously] "Sir... your son meant more to me than you
could know. I would have given _my_ life if it would've
saved his. He made no request of me."
Sarek: [almost disdainfully] "He would not have spoken of it
openly."
Kirk: [confused] "Then how..."
Sarek: [urgently] "Kirk! I must have your thoughts. May I join
your mind?"
Kirk: "Sir."
[They sit down, and Sarek initiates a mind meld with a
rather uncomfortable Kirk. They 'relive' Spock's death
as remembered by Kirk.]
Sarek: "He spoke of your friendship."
Kirk: "Yes..."
Sarek: "He asked you not to grieve."
Kirk: "Yes..."
Sarek: "The needs of the many outweigh..."
Kirk: "The needs of the few..."
Sarek: "Or the one..."
Kirk: [whispering] "Spock!"
Sarek: "I have been, and always shall be, your friend. Live
long... and prosper." [with anguish] "No! Forgive me.
It is not here. I had assumed he mind-melded with you.
It is the Vulcan way when the body's end is near."
Kirk: [almost crying] "We were separated. He couldn't touch
me."
Sarek: "I see. Then everything that he was, everything that
he knew, is lost."
[Without a word, quite overcome with grief, Sarek turns
to leave, when Kirk gets an idea.]
Kirk: "Please wait! He would have found a way, if there was
that much at stake. Spock _would_ have found a way!"
Sarek: "Yes, but how?"
Kirk: "What if he joined with someone else?"
[Kirk downloads the flight recorder data from the
Enterprise's engineering room. They watch Spock nerve-
pinching McCoy, the quick mind meld and Spock saying
"Remember!" before entering the reactor chamber.]
Kirk: "McCoy!"
Sarek: "One alive, one not. Yet _both_ in pain."
Kirk: "What must I do?"
Sarek: "You must bring them to Mount Seleya, on Vulcan. Only
_there_ can both find peace."
Kirk: "What you ask is difficult."
Sarek: "You will find a way, Kirk. If you honor them both,
you _must_."
Kirk: "I will. I swear."
------------------------ end of transcript ---------------------
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Dr Maggie Hellstroem, GSI Darmstadt
In connection with my recent post containing the Kirk&Sarek scene from Star
Trek III: The Search for Spock, I'd like to follow it all up with some
(thought)provoking comments on the "katra" subject myself...:
The whole business of "katra transplantation" seems very strange to me. I
mean, I can sort of buy the concept of an individual "soul", but that
"everything [Spock] was" could be transferred to another person (and stay
more or less intact?) appears very unlikely. Perhaps "echoes" of his
thoughts and emotions, yes. Maybe even part of his vast knowledge,
especially if the recipient had some corresponding background. But
"everything"??? (But Sarek might have been letting his emotions take over
when he spoke with Kirk, see below, after all he admitted later to his
"Logic" being uncertain when his son was concerned...)
And what did Spock really intend with his action? If he wanted his katra to
be transported back to Vulcan (with or without being deposited back into
his body which conceivably could have been healed?), I would have thought
it more "logical" (NO pun intended!) to leave more specific instructions
behind - as a Starfleet officer working in space, surely he would have
imagined similar scenarios for his death... (At least in the novelization
of ST:III Sarek hints at there existing a special clause in Starfleet
regulations stating that the bodily remains of _all_ Vulcans should be
returned to Vulcan, no matter what. Kirk then answers that Spock had left
his own instructions, negating this special clause. Why?)
If he had some sort of permanent mind-meld with McCoy in mind, (like the
one between Amanda and T'Pau in Diane Duane's "Spock's World") then it
would be rather uncharacteristic of Spock to just force his innermost
essence on another being without asking first. True, there was not a lot of
time for preparations, but...
Please note that I am trying to stimulate some debate here on a subject
that has fascinated me for years. As usual, my intentions are NOT to step
on anyone's toes (or other extruding body parts).
LL&P! / Maggie
Jacqueline Y. Comben
In message <009AEB0A.0...@axp602.gsi.de> "Dr Maggie Hellstroem, GSI Darmstadt" writes:
> Sarek: "Because he _asked_ you to. He entrusted you... with his
> very essence. With everything that was not of the body.
> He _asked_ you to bring him to us. And to bring that
> which he gave to you: his _katra_, his living spirit."
>
> he knew, is lost."
>
How else can you define it? Everything I am, everything I know.
Seems a pretty clear definition to me!
Thanks a mint for that transcript!
--
Jacqueline Y. Comben
fire-breathing dragon and ex-lisper!
Jacqueline Y. Comben
In message <009AEB0A.A...@axp602.gsi.de> "Dr Maggie Hellstroem, GSI Darmstadt" writes:
>
> The whole business of "katra transplantation" seems very strange to me. I
> mean, I can sort of buy the concept of an individual "soul", but that
> "everything [Spock] was" could be transferred to another person (and stay
> more or less intact?) appears very unlikely. Perhaps "echoes" of his
> thoughts and emotions, yes. Maybe even part of his vast knowledge,
> especially if the recipient had some corresponding background. But
> "everything"??? (But Sarek might have been letting his emotions take over
> when he spoke with Kirk, see below, after all he admitted later to his
> "Logic" being uncertain when his son was concerned...)
>
possible would be desirable, I should think. Maybe Vulcans can 'file'
the katra of another very tidily in one place and download it just
as tidily? Maybe Vulcans can auto-download their katra tidily into
the brain of another so that it is easily transferred to the Hall?
Certainly the problem at Seleya seemed to be putting the katra back
into the 'infant' but alive Spock, rather than the fact that the
host was human... that didn't seem to worry T'Lal.
> And what did Spock really intend with his action? If he wanted his katra to
> be transported back to Vulcan (with or without being deposited back into
> his body which conceivably could have been healed?), I would have thought
> it more "logical" (NO pun intended!) to leave more specific instructions
> behind - as a Starfleet officer working in space, surely he would have
> imagined similar scenarios for his death... (At least in the novelization
> of ST:III Sarek hints at there existing a special clause in Starfleet
> regulations stating that the bodily remains of _all_ Vulcans should be
> returned to Vulcan, no matter what. Kirk then answers that Spock had left
> his own instructions, negating this special clause. Why?)
>
I have always presumed that:
a.only very special Vulcans are invited to deposit their katra for
transfer to the Hall of Ancients and Spock (half-human) while knowing
he was unique didn't think Vulcans valued him that much, so didn't
expect to be invited.
b. Spock didn't think, as a half-human,that he could deposit his katra.
but that:
c. It turned out to be instinctive. Maybe it is for all Vulcans and
those not wanted in the Hall are released into the infinite at some
ceremony or other. Anyway,knowing he was going to his death, Spock
dumped his katra into McCoy without deliberately meaning to... it just
happened... and he couldn't undo it, or warn anyone. Bones was out
cold and he couldn't call Jim, as he didn't have time for the
argument! (About his intention to give his life!) Scott was in no
fit state to understand and it is a very private Vulcan thing.
All he could do was get on with saving the ship and hope McCoy
would be OK.
kj0473
Yes, I agree. This is the argument, the point, I've been trying, though I
think inadequately, to make the entire time. I believe that the katra is
the "soul" of the vulcan. His/Her life essence. Again, this is not an uncommon
notion in many of the most primitive (and evolved) societies of humanity.
Kevin L. Jackson
T'lyr
Forwarding note from: hot...@rhossili.demon.co.uk 01/21/97 6:24pm GMT
>For deposition in the Hall of Ancients, as close to 'everything' as
>possible would be desirable, I should think. Maybe Vulcans can 'file'
>the katra of another very tidily in one place and download it just
>as tidily? Maybe Vulcans can auto-download their katra tidily into
>the brain of another so that it is easily transferred to the Hall?
>Certainly the problem at Seleya seemed to be putting the katra back
i>nto the 'infant' but alive Spock, rather than the fact that the
>host was human... that didn't seem to worry T'Lal.
That Vulcans have the ability to 'download' their katras into another seems
likely to me and ties in nicely with JM Dillard's 'The Lost Years' story (non
cannon, I know but a great tale nontheless). No other explanation for the
Hall of Ancients seems very logical to me.
<snip>
>c. It turned out to be instinctive. Maybe it is for all Vulcans and
>those not wanted in the Hall are released into the infinite at some
>ceremony or other. Anyway,knowing he was going to his death, Spock
>dumped his katra into McCoy without deliberately meaning to... it just
>happened... and he couldn't undo it, or warn anyone.
<snip>
I think that Spock did mean to leave his katra with Bones. The last words
Spock says is 'Remember' and to me this signifies intent. It's like he's
reinforcing his actions. *Why* Spock downloaded his katra into Bones ----
perhaps he felt he did have something to offer to Vulcan -- years in
Starfleet exploring space having very unique experiences and perhaps
because he is half human, having a unique perspective on Vulcan. I rather
think he was leaving all the options open -- if it was decided that his katra
would be useful, it had been preserved; if not .....
Now I think I shall re-read 'The Lost Years'!
Regards,
T'lyr
melanie...@gmail.com
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