Master Sifo-Dyas (HUGE HUGE SPOILERS) the real thing...
iakovos
have
been
warned
I wasn't :)
Days to go:
5
4
3
2
1
0
-1
-2
-3
-4
-5
-6 (for me)
Fine...
The combined making of AOTC in Greek TV has some new scenes and dialogue,
like some views of Kamino, the approach of Obi-Wan's ship to Kamino and to
Geonosis, the explosion of the Naboo ship right at the start,
the fight between the Jedis and the battle droids, Anakin's and Amidala's
flirt in Naboo, the fight between Obi-Wan and Jengo Fett in the Hangar and
of the space
battle between them, Anakin chopping off the Tusken Raider as he exits the
tent. Anakin carrying something with a bitter look (his mother's body?) as
the Lars and Amidala watch him. There is behind the scenes footage and
also excerpts from interviews by George Lucas, Portman,
Christopher Lee, Samuel Jackson, Ewan Mcgregor, Hayden.
The particular scene (the whole scene) where Obi-wan informs the two
masters, Mace Windu and Yoda about his findings on Kamino ends the making
of.
New info of the pronunciation of some names.
The Nabou homeworld was pronounced Ne-bou by George Lucas.
Dooku's name was pronounced Du-ku by Christopher Lee.
George Lucas said that he wanted an actor wise and older like Alec Guinness
and
described Dooku as a Good Jedi (!!!) who has been through alot.
I am putting here the whole transcript from that scene, which creates lots
of questions.
EXT. JEDI TEMPLE, LIVING QUARTERS - EARLY EVENING
YODA and MACE WINDU listen as a hologram of OBI-WAN stands between them
broadcasting the message. The room is dark and only the two Jedi Masters are
present.
The signal is indeed very weak, the image fades in and out.
OBI-WAN (V.O.)
I have successfully made contact with the Prime Minister of Kamino.
They are using a Bounty Hunter named Jango Fett to create a clone army.
I have a strong feeling that this bounty hunter is the assassin we are
looking for.
MACE WINDU
Do you think these Cloners are involved in the plot to
assassinate the senator Amidala?
OBI-WAN (V.O.)
No, Master. There appears to be no motive.
YODA
Don't assume anything, Obi-Wan. Clear your mind must be if
you are to discover the real villains behind this plot.
OBI-WAN (V.O.)
Yes Master. (pause) They said Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order
for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago.
I was under the impression that he was killed before that...
Non verbal reaction between MACE WINDU and YODA. They know something more
than OBI-WAN.
OBI-WAN (V.O. Continued)
... Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?
MACE WINDU
No, who ever placed that order did not have
the authorization of the Jedi Council.
YODA
Bring him here. Question him we will.
OBI-WAN (V.O.)
Yes, Master. I will report back when I have him.
The hologram switches off, and OBI-WAN fades away.
YODA
Blind we are! This creation of a clone army we could not see.
MACE WINDU
Hmmm... I think it is time we inform the Senate that our
ability to use the force has diminished.
YODA
Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness.
If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will.
MACE WINDU stares back at YODA, then slowly shakes his head.
That's a wrap.
Revelations:
Yoda, Mace and Obi-wan all know Sifo-Dyas.
Sifo-Dyas is a former Jedi Master and does exist.
Yoda knows that the Sith are behind this.
Questions:
Why did Sifo-Dyas fake his death?Is he a Sith? An ally of the Sith?
The apprentice of Sidious?Or the head of a new pair of Sith working
together?
Sifo-Dyas the Master and Dooku his apprentice? And Sidious still searching
for a new one?
The existence of Sifo-Dyas means that he cannot be Sidious.
Unless Sidious posed as the dead Jedi to cover his tracks. If that is the
case why did he reveal his true identity to the Trade Federation (Hi, I am
Lord Sidious, Sith, and you are?) and not to the Cloners of Kamino?
If Sifo-Dyas is still alive then what do Windu and Yoda know about him, that
they do not tell to Obi-Wan?
This reminds me of the theory that Yoda and Obi-Wan manipulated Luke to get
to Vader.
We see now Yoda and Mace to manipulate Obi-Wan to get to the Sith? Or to
another secret?
How does Yoda know that the Dark Lord of the Sith knows their weakness?
If they are blind he cannot be sure. What haven't we be told about the Sith?
Yoda seems to be pretty confident that the Master of the Sith is alive,
and that his apprentice was killed after all.
This means that the Sith are behind the creation of the clone army,
according to Yoda.
If that is the case why Yoda uses the clones in the events to come, if he
thinks they
were created by the Sith?
The request of finding Sifo-Dyas seems that Yoda now is confident that he is
alive.
They cannot be asking Obi-Wan to find Jengo Fett (because Fett's name was
mentioned earlier on and Obi-Wan's questions are directed to the status of
the
former Jedi Master) and to question him (looks illogical, they would have
pointed out clearly, find this bounty Hunter).
Two things:
Is Sifo-Dyas one of the lost 20, like Dooku? Or is he a good Jedi, perhaps a
former Shadow Jedi (the ones who are responsible for penetrating the ranks
of the Dark Jedi)?
If this dialogue in the circulating AOTC script is true (when Jango and
Obi-Wan meet):
TAUN WE
Sido-Dyas told us to expect him.
And he showed up just when your
Jedi Master said he would. We
have kept the Jedi's involvement
a secret until your arrival, just
as your Master requested.
Does this mean that Sifo-Dyas is a Good Jedi?
How could he know that Obi-Wan would be showing up on Kamino?
And why would Darth Sidious (if he is posing as Sifo-Dyas) know that Obi-Wan
will be going there?
Well, hope that the movie will tell us more.
Cheers,
Iakovos:)
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>YOU
>
>have
>
>been
>
>warned
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I wasn't :)
>
>
>
>
>
>Days to go:
>
>5
>
>4
>
>3
>
>2
>
>1
>
>0
>
>-1
>
>-2
>
>-3
>
>-4
>
>-5
>
>-6 (for me)
>
>
>Fine...
<snip>
>The existence of Sifo-Dyas means that he cannot be Sidious.
<snip>
>And why would Darth Sidious (if he is posing as Sifo-Dyas) know that Obi-Wan
>will be going there?
Ah but think about this: Sidious could very well be Sifo-Dyas after
all but is using "Sifo-Dyas" as a pseudo. The 2 names are just close
enough that only someone who knows of the name "Sidious" would raise
an eyebrow.
Supposing I posed as "Rindi-bowe Hirunne"? See?
-Rainbow Heron
(sig hopes that RH never poses as "Rindi-bowe Hirunne")
I could see where Sidious changed his name around a bit on the order
form so that when Dateline NBC came to call, they'd have to do some
major digging.
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Penny for your two cents?
iakovos
"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
news:ponrdu0jep4nrk22j...@4ax.com...
Wouldn't it be for Sidious a little bit TOO convenient to find a name of a
dead jedi
that sounds like his own name?
Why would you use a name that sounds like your own in the first place?
Illogical.
If that was the case then he wouldn't be called Palpatine, but Da'rSi' Dyus!
Iakovos:)
Philip Heppenstall
I think this is a load of ol'bol'orks
--
=============================================
ALAN SHEARER 204 PREMIERSHIP GOALS.... SO FAR
=============================================
iakovos
"Philip Heppenstall" <SpamFr...@SpamSpamEggAndSpam.co.uk> wrote in
message news:ablec2$q6h$5...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Of all the gin joints in all the world, iakovos walks into mine
>
>
> I think this is a load of ol'bol'orks
Yoda will not be happy about it...
Iakovos:)
Twisted
was that Sidious or Dooku were posing as Sifo-Dyas to get the clone army
created, the Sith wouldnt want to use them in the first place anyway,
becuase Papatine is basically bidding his time in the Senate until he's sees
his oportunity to take over and start the Empire, this would obviously take
an army of some sort.......Remind you of anything?
As far as the seperatists, Palpatine has obviously instructed Dooku to
pursue this movement to cause trouble in the republic and give Palpatine an
excuse to get away with this little army trick of his.
But I have a feeling Palpatine knows that he needs Anakin, I think the
Emperor has forseen Vader, and knows he will, along with Boba Fett and other
bounty hunters, hunt down and destroy the Jedi.
I think Sifo Dyas did actually die, I dont think that he is one of the lost
numbers, but Obi Wan seems to think that he was a in position of very high
power in the Jedi council, maybe even holding Mace Windus or Yodas
position...One of the Kaminoans tells Obi Wan - "Please tell your Master
Sifo-Dyas....."
Heres a thought, maybe Sifo Dyas trained either Mace Windu or Yoda, and
thats why they look so shocked to here of the use of his name to create the
clonetroopers
Rainbow Heron
<twistedm...@ToughGuy.net> wrote:
>I think Sifo Dyas did actually die, I dont think that he is one of the lost
>numbers, but Obi Wan seems to think that he was a in position of very high
>power in the Jedi council, maybe even holding Mace Windus or Yodas
>position...One of the Kaminoans tells Obi Wan - "Please tell your Master
>Sifo-Dyas....."
>
>Heres a thought, maybe Sifo Dyas trained either Mace Windu or Yoda, and
>thats why they look so shocked to here of the use of his name to create the
>clonetroopers
Or this: if Sidious = Sifo-Dyas (which I think is the case) and they
know that Sidious/Sifo-Dyas is a Force user of some sort (maybe not
necessarily a Sith as the Trade Federation knew), then the Kamino guys
would have to assume that Sidious/Sifo-Dyas is a Jedi.
Remember, the Sith are supposedly extinct and the only group that
suspects otherwise are the Jedi. So it's natural for anybody other
than the Jedi to assume that *any* Force user would be a Jedi. And if
the assumed Jedi speaks with great authority, then it would naturally
be assumed that the guy is a Jedi Master.
Yes Windu and Yoda are shocked- but they are shocked to hear that a
supposed Jedi would do all of this because they know that a fellow
Jedi wouldn't...which gives credence to the "Sith have returned"
theory of theirs.
Sidious is a masquerader. I believe he'd use a psuedo and make it
obvious that he's a Force user, but not necessarily Sith. If Sidious
wants to *discredit* the Jedi in the eyes of the Republic, then I
think he might let on to the Kamino guys that he's a Jedi.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig should point out that RH has not read the books or seen a preview
of the movie)
I guess we'll find out soon enough.
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==========================================
Jell-o jigglers are like Gak
...except they don't make that fart noise.
Rainbow Heron
a la Google
>From: iakovos (indi...@ath.forthnet.gr)
>Subject: Re: Master Sifo-Dyas (HUGE HUGE SPOILERS) the real thing...
>Newsgroups: alt.fan.starwars, rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc
>View: Complete Thread (5 articles) | Original Format
>Date: 2002-05-11 20:50:11 PST
>dead jedi that sounds like his own name?
Too convenient = too obvious = no he didn't use the name of a dead
Jedi
>Why would you use a name that sounds like your own in the first place?
>Illogical.
Ever see those Dateline or Law and Order things where they're tracking
a con artist or a cheating husband? Lots of times they'll keep their
first name and change their last name when they change locations.
It's not illogical at all.
Just easy.
>Da'rSi' Dyus!
Nah, that'd be Darcy Dious.
Still, I'd rather wait for the movie. (less than 48 hours to go)
-Rainbow Heron
(sig would be gis)
As in "haggis" there sig?
mostly harmless
The problem with this is if we assume that Sidious is Palpatine, then
Yoda et al would recognise him and wonder why Sifo-Dyas was using the
name Palpatine.
--
to mail remove the obvious
iakovos
"mostly harmless" <tul...@OBVIOUSmindless.com> wrote in message
news:abtfr...@enews3.newsguy.com...
> The problem with this is if we assume that Sidious is Palpatine, then
> Yoda et al would recognise him and wonder why Sifo-Dyas was using the
> name Palpatine.
That's why it creates a bigger mystery.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"Twisted" <twistedm...@ToughGuy.net> wrote in message
news:abrn3l$jdb5n$1...@ID-136141.news.dfncis.de...
> Yeah, Im in the process of reading the book and the first thing I thought
> was that Sidious or Dooku were posing as Sifo-Dyas to get the clone army
Why NOT use them? And why let his enemies use his own army?
> Heres a thought, maybe Sifo Dyas trained either Mace Windu or Yoda, and
> thats why they look so shocked to here of the use of his name to create
the
> clonetroopers...
For me, it looks more of: "Sifo-Dyas? We had planned something with him...
and a clone army is what he has done?"
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
news:aps2eu0bea578tg36...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 14 May 2002 20:22:36 +0100, "Twisted"
> <twistedm...@ToughGuy.net> wrote:
>
> >I think Sifo Dyas did actually die, I dont think that he is one of the
lost
> >numbers, but Obi Wan seems to think that he was a in position of very
high
> >power in the Jedi council, maybe even holding Mace Windus or Yodas
> >position...One of the Kaminoans tells Obi Wan - "Please tell your Master
> >Sifo-Dyas....."
My view exactly...
> >Heres a thought, maybe Sifo Dyas trained either Mace Windu or Yoda, and
> >thats why they look so shocked to here of the use of his name to create
the
> >clonetroopers.
There must be something deeper than a simple mentioning of a known name to
them.
Yoda and Windu look like "oh, shit, where did HE come from? We told him to
do that etc."
Just an example.
> Or this: if Sidious = Sifo-Dyas (which I think is the case) and they
> know that Sidious/Sifo-Dyas is a Force user of some sort (maybe not
> necessarily a Sith as the Trade Federation knew), then the Kamino guys
> would have to assume that Sidious/Sifo-Dyas is a Jedi.
Not necessarily. The Kamino guys are far away from the republic to
assume that the Sith are no more.
>So it's natural for anybody other
> than the Jedi to assume that *any* Force user would be a Jedi.
There is no reason whatsoever for any Force user to demonstrate his use of
the force.
Why do it anyway? Sidious doesn't do it in any encounter, and Maul too
(while speaking with the Trade Federation guys).
> Yes Windu and Yoda are shocked- but they are shocked to hear that a
> supposed Jedi would do all of this because they know that a fellow
> Jedi wouldn't...which gives credence to the "Sith have returned"
> theory of theirs.
Too far fetched. And besides, Yoda does not connect the one with the other.
He only points out that they are blind and the Sith know that.
>If Sidious
> wants to *discredit* the Jedi in the eyes of the Republic, then I
> think he might let on to the Kamino guys that he's a Jedi.
Discredit on what grounds? Doe not make sense.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
> >Wouldn't it be for Sidious a little bit TOO convenient to find a name of
a
> >dead jedi that sounds like his own name?
>
> Too convenient = too obvious = no he didn't use the name of a dead
> Jedi
How do you know?
>
> >Why would you use a name that sounds like your own in the first place?
> >Illogical.
>
> Ever see those Dateline or Law and Order things where they're tracking
> a con artist or a cheating husband? Lots of times they'll keep their
> first name and change their last name when they change locations.
>
> It's not illogical at all.
Well, here Sidious keeps his ONLY name, if this is the case.
Venger
"mostly harmless" <tul...@OBVIOUSmindless.com> wrote in message
news:abtfr...@enews3.newsguy.com...
If Sifo-Dyas is just some lame soundalike for Sidious, that's gonna be a
bitter disappointment...
<Table ready for...pause...Sifo-Dyas...party of 2...>
Venger
Twisted
iakovos wrote in message <10214654...@athprx02.forthnet.gr>...
>Why NOT use them? And why let his enemies use his own army?
Because it has convinced everyone that their is an army available that the
republic can use, Palpy wants control of the senate, he doesnt care how many
of his apprentices get wiped out in the process, hence him telling Maul
"They will be no match for you my apprentice", he doesnt care....He knows
that Dooku will cause enough of a stir to overpower the Jedi and uses this
to gain "Emergency powers" in the Senate, thus being able to decree the use
of the clones.
How much money dya wanna bet that in AATA Palpatine wont relase these
emergency powers, thus giving birth to the empire?
The Darkside have screwed up the force, so it makes sense that only the sith
at the moment are the ones with a clear picture of what the future holds.
iakovos
"Venger" <Ven...@augustmail.com> wrote in message
news:F6uE8.147483$M7.14...@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Could he be a clone of PALPAtine?
LOL
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"Twisted" <twistedm...@ToughGuy.net> wrote in message
>
> iakovos wrote in message <10214654...@athprx02.forthnet.gr>...
> >Why NOT use them? And why let his enemies use his own army?
>
> Because it has convinced everyone that their is an army available that the
Yes, but the Jedi must be mindful that this army was a work done by the
Sith!
>Palpy wants control of the senate, he doesnt care how many
> of his apprentices get wiped out in the process, hence him telling Maul
> "They will be no match for you my apprentice", he doesnt care....
Well, for all we know Palpy could have been the apprentice ;)
>He knows
> that Dooku will cause enough of a stir to overpower the Jedi and uses this
> to gain "Emergency powers" in the Senate, thus being able to decree the
use
> of the clones.
I sure believe that in episode 3 the clones will turn against the Republic,
thus leading to the real clone wars.
> How much money dya wanna bet that in AATA Palpatine wont relase these
> emergency powers, thus giving birth to the empire?
Palpatine will use more power including the creation of another army
(regular troopers)
to stop the clones.
> The Darkside have screwed up the force, so it makes sense that only the
sith
> at the moment are the ones with a clear picture of what the future holds.
AGREED.
Iakovos:)
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
>"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
>news:fvv2eucn884ntb5hr...@4ax.com...
>> >Wouldn't it be for Sidious a little bit TOO convenient to find a name of
>a
>> >dead jedi that sounds like his own name?
>>
>> Too convenient = too obvious = no he didn't use the name of a dead
>> Jedi
>
>How do you know?
We're speculating in this thread. This is my speculation.
>> >Why would you use a name that sounds like your own in the first place?
>> >Illogical.
>>
>> Ever see those Dateline or Law and Order things where they're tracking
>> a con artist or a cheating husband? Lots of times they'll keep their
>> first name and change their last name when they change locations.
>>
>> It's not illogical at all.
>
>Well, here Sidious keeps his ONLY name, if this is the case.
I'm sorry but if Sidious is his only name, then you might as well say
that "Vader" is Anakin's only name.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig has two names)
Just my opinion- you don't have to agree with it.
==========================================
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I'm gonna kick their asses! And then I'm gonna kick their butts!
And when I'm done kicking their donkeys and cigarettes,
I'm gonna kick THEM!
Rainbow Heron
<tul...@OBVIOUSmindless.com> wrote:
Why would they recognize him? Yoda et al don't know that Palpatine =
Sidious or even Palpatine = Sifo-Dyas.
So far they just seem confused as to whose identity is whose anbd the
only things they know for certain are that the Sith know stuff the
Jedi don't and that the Sith know the Jedi have the lower hand.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig doesn't have hands)
So far, the Jedi Council just seems to be going around in circles.
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Rainbow Heron
That's pretty much what I just said. The Kamino guys don't need to
know if the Sith are still there or not- the point is, they're
assuming the Force user Sifo-Dyas is a Jedi.
>>So it's natural for anybody other than the Jedi to assume that *any* Force user would be a Jedi.
>
>There is no reason whatsoever for any Force user to demonstrate his use of
>the force.
True but I never said anything about that.
But whether they received a demonstration or not, they obviously
*think* Sifo-Dyas is a Force user, specifically of the Jedi kind.
(whether he is a Jedi or not was the original speculation)
>Why do it anyway?
To prove who they are or at least make them do what they want.
>Sidious doesn't do it in any encounter, and Maul too
>(while speaking with the Trade Federation guys).
Ok then- how did the Trade Federation guys know that Sidious an Maul
were Sith? Whether they used the Force or not, I'm sure there was
*some* sort of demonstration given. Someone asks/tells you to do
something and you'll want proof of their authority or at least their
authenticity.
"I'm a cop."
"Let me see your badge"
>> Yes Windu and Yoda are shocked- but they are shocked to hear that a
>> supposed Jedi would do all of this because they know that a fellow
>> Jedi wouldn't...which gives credence to the "Sith have returned"
>> theory of theirs.
>
>Too far fetched.
How so?
>And besides, Yoda does not connect the one with the other.
>He only points out that they are blind and the Sith know that.
Oh but he does- why else would his immediate comment about the
situation mention the Sith?
>> If Sidious wants to *discredit* the Jedi in the eyes of the Republic, then I
>> think he might let on to the Kamino guys that he's a Jedi.
>
>Discredit on what grounds? Doe not make sense.
If Sifo-Dyas is a supposed Jedi (Sith aside), and this said supposed
Jedi put in an order to create a clone army, then it begs the question
as to "why would a Jedi put in such an order?"
When word gets out (and these kinds of things do get out all the
time), the galaxy starts to gossip and speculate on the matter and
what happens is pretty much anything you see here on Earth with
politicians and their "secret pet projects". You know how the public
reacts to things like that.
So when the time comes for Palpatine to introduce his New Order and
exterminate the Jedi, the public will have its doubts about the Jedi
and thus it will be easier for Palpatine/Sidious to get rid of them.
Just think Earth politics here for a moment and you'll get the idea.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig hates these kinds of Earth politics)
After all, politicians try to discredit each other and each other's
factions all the time, so why should this be any different in that one
realm?
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iakovos
> On Wed, 15 May 2002 15:18:53 +0300, "iakovos"
> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
> >Not necessarily. The Kamino guys are far away from the republic to
> >assume that the Sith are no more.
>
> That's pretty much what I just said. The Kamino guys don't need to
> know if the Sith are still there or not- the point is, they're
> assuming the Force user Sifo-Dyas is a Jedi.
They do not have to assume if the guy just tells them so.
He said he is a Jedi master, he must be a Force user then...
> True but I never said anything about that.
I never said you did.
> To prove who they are or at least make them do what they want.
Not necessary.
He just ordered 500.000 pieces of clones and hey, he's got the money for it
in advance!
> Ok then- how did the Trade Federation guys know that Sidious an Maul
> were Sith? Whether they used the Force or not, I'm sure there was
> *some* sort of demonstration given. Someone asks/tells you to do
> something and you'll want proof of their authority or at least their
> authenticity.
>
> "I'm a cop."
>
> "Let me see your badge"
*waves hand*
You do not have to see my badge.
I do not have to see your badge.
You are scared shitless.
I am scared shitless.
I do not think so. The Trade Federation are cowards. They do not even
require a demonstration.
Didn't you see how intimidated they were in the revelation that the
Ambassadors are Jedi?
> >> Yes Windu and Yoda are shocked- but they are shocked to hear that a
> >> supposed Jedi would do all of this because they know that a fellow
> >> Jedi wouldn't...which gives credence to the "Sith have returned"
> >> theory of theirs.
> >
> >Too far fetched.
>
> How so?
If my theory of Sifo-Dyas being a Shadow Jedi is true, then why should they
think that this is not possible for a fellow jedi to do?
> >And besides, Yoda does not connect the one with the other.
> >He only points out that they are blind and the Sith know that.
>
> Oh but he does- why else would his immediate comment about the
> situation mention the Sith?
If he DID connect the clones themselves with the Sith, then he would NOT use
the clones at all.
If you had only suspicions of a "certain gift" given to you, you would not
take it.
"Trojan Horse" anyone?
> If Sifo-Dyas is a supposed Jedi (Sith aside), and this said supposed
> Jedi put in an order to create a clone army, then it begs the question
> as to "why would a Jedi put in such an order?"
Why would anyone put such an order?
> When word gets out (and these kinds of things do get out all the
> time), the galaxy starts to gossip and speculate on the matter and
> what happens is pretty much anything you see here on Earth with
> politicians and their "secret pet projects". You know how the public
> reacts to things like that.
Yes, but the Jedi are not politicians.
>
> So when the time comes for Palpatine to introduce his New Order and
> exterminate the Jedi, the public will have its doubts about the Jedi
> and thus it will be easier for Palpatine/Sidious to get rid of them.
The public seems to have doubts already about the Jedi.
A cloned army, which in the end "is used" for the benefit of the Republic
actually gives them a good name.
> After all, politicians try to discredit each other and each other's
> factions all the time, so why should this be any different in that one
> realm?
Because Jedi are not politicians!
iakovos
> On Wed, 15 May 2002 15:24:02 +0300, "iakovos"
> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
> >How do you know?
>
> We're speculating in this thread. This is my speculation.
Oh, ok. It's a statement you mean. Not proof.
> >Well, here Sidious keeps his ONLY name, if this is the case.
>
> I'm sorry but if Sidious is his only name, then you might as well say
> that "Vader" is Anakin's only name.
Well, isn't it?
Noone knows him as Anakin apart from those close to him.
> Just my opinion- you don't have to agree with it.
That's what open free discussion is all about :)
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
news:02c6euceap48jvnal...@4ax.com...
> >Yoda et al would recognise him and wonder why Sifo-Dyas was using the
> >name Palpatine.
>
> Why would they recognize him? Yoda et al don't know that Palpatine =
> Sidious or even Palpatine = Sifo-Dyas.
They know Sifo-Dyas in person, so they should recognize him.
> So far they just seem confused as to whose identity is whose anbd the
> only things they know for certain are that the Sith know stuff the
> Jedi don't and that the Sith know the Jedi have the lower hand.
That's why they want to question Sifo-Dyas.
> So far, the Jedi Council just seems to be going around in circles.
Yup.
Iakovos:)
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
First off, which ng are you posting from cuz I'd like to gt this thing
off the cross-post.
>
>"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
>news:p7c6eus6ej5g3g3in...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 15 May 2002 15:18:53 +0300, "iakovos"
>> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>> >Not necessarily. The Kamino guys are far away from the republic to
>> >assume that the Sith are no more.
>>
>> That's pretty much what I just said. The Kamino guys don't need to
>> know if the Sith are still there or not- the point is, they're
>> assuming the Force user Sifo-Dyas is a Jedi.
>
>They do not have to assume if the guy just tells them so.
So I could tell you that I am purple-eyed lizard and you would assume
that I am telling you the truth?!
The Sith are thourough liars and exceptionally skilled at manipulating
the truth. I wouldn't trust them to tell me truthfully what they
didn't say yesterday.
Just because the Kamino *assume* he's a Jedi, does not mean that he
*is* a Jedi!
>> True but I never said anything about that.
>
>I never said you did.
Just so we're straight- that's all.
>> To prove who they are or at least make them do what they want.
>
>Not necessary.
>He just ordered 500.000 pieces of clones and hey, he's got the money for it
>in advance!
Yes and that much money would be one way of proving the guy has power
of some sort.
But if the clones are being used for an army (as they obviously are)
then any respected business would have to raise an eyebrow. Especially
if the order was placed by a *supposed* Jedi. After all, don't the
Jedi do the fighting themselves? The Jedi have no reason to create a
clone army. It just doesn't jive.
>> Ok then- how did the Trade Federation guys know that Sidious an Maul
>> were Sith? Whether they used the Force or not, I'm sure there was
>> *some* sort of demonstration given. Someone asks/tells you to do
>> something and you'll want proof of their authority or at least their
>> authenticity.
>>
>> "I'm a cop."
>>
>> "Let me see your badge"
>
>*waves hand*
>
>You do not have to see my badge.
>
>I do not have to see your badge.
>
>You are scared shitless.
>
>I am scared shitless.
After guy leaves:
"Wow what was that all about?"
"Well I have a pre-paid order here for a clone army."
"Wow who paid for it?"
"I dunno but he used the Force. He said he was Master somebody."
"Say who's that coming?"
"Obi-Wan Kenobi, he's a Jedi."
"Oh! Well then he can tell this Force-user Master guy "hi" for us!"
"Hey Kenobi! Tell Your Master we said 'hi' and thanks for the cash!"
"Who?!"
>I do not think so. The Trade Federation are cowards. They do not even
>require a demonstration.
>Didn't you see how intimidated they were in the revelation that the
>Ambassadors are Jedi?
But are the Kamino guys cowards? Just cuz someone's intimidated
doesn't mean they won't do their homework.
>> >> Yes Windu and Yoda are shocked- but they are shocked to hear that a
>> >> supposed Jedi would do all of this because they know that a fellow
>> >> Jedi wouldn't...which gives credence to the "Sith have returned"
>> >> theory of theirs.
>> >
>> >Too far fetched.
>>
>> How so?
>
>If my theory of Sifo-Dyas being a Shadow Jedi is true, then why should they
>think that this is not possible for a fellow jedi to do?
Because a "fellow Jedi" is a fellow- he'd do what they would do. A
"fellow Jedi" wouldn't order a clone army.
>> >And besides, Yoda does not connect the one with the other.
>> >He only points out that they are blind and the Sith know that.
>>
>> Oh but he does- why else would his immediate comment about the
>> situation mention the Sith?
>
>If he DID connect the clones themselves with the Sith, then he would NOT use
>the clones at all.
>If you had only suspicions of a "certain gift" given to you, you would not
>take it.
And yet they accepted Anakin when they sensed much fear in him.
Seeing a pattern here?
>> If Sifo-Dyas is a supposed Jedi (Sith aside), and this said supposed
>> Jedi put in an order to create a clone army, then it begs the question
>> as to "why would a Jedi put in such an order?"
>
>Why would anyone put such an order?
To stir up trouble. Jedi do not stir up trouble. Sith do.
Plus, if the order was placed 10 years before the time when they are
obviously needed, then someone knew 10 years ago that they'd be needed
now. So either:
1. the person who placed the order could see into the future using the
Force
2. the person had an attack plan to stir up trouble which would be
executed 10 years later exactly which would involved the clone army
3. both of the above
Only Sidious/Palpatine/Sifo-Dyas fits all the criteria, because a Jedi
would not have placed the order 10 years ago with the intent of
causing trouble, and its obvious that if the Dark Side is clouding up
the future to the Jedi, then only a Sith could have done this.
Hence Yoda's comment. They could not see it coming 10 years ago and
they can't see what's coming now. Only the Sith can, and the Sith
obviously know something the Jedi don't. And the Sith knows this
because things are going forward and it ain't in the Jedis' favor.
>> When word gets out (and these kinds of things do get out all the
>> time), the galaxy starts to gossip and speculate on the matter and
>> what happens is pretty much anything you see here on Earth with
>> politicians and their "secret pet projects". You know how the public
>> reacts to things like that.
>
>Yes, but the Jedi are not politicians.
But they are being thown into the political arena unwillingly.
First when Valorum sent Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan as Ambassadors, and now
with the Jedi and the Clone Wars. Not to mention Anakin travelling
with Padme.
Whether a Jedi is a politician or not, if the public sees a Jedi
inside the political arena in any sense, then they will treat him as
being connected with it.
The Clone army is a political tool. If the Jedi use the Clone army,
then they are using a political tool and can be looked upon with many
of the same scrutinies as a politician.
This is good for Palpatine/Sidious/Sifo-Dyas as it brings the Jedi
into his 'home turf' in more ways than one, and thus makes them more
vulnerable to the great big bombshell he's gonna drop on them in Ep3.
>> So when the time comes for Palpatine to introduce his New Order and
>> exterminate the Jedi, the public will have its doubts about the Jedi
>> and thus it will be easier for Palpatine/Sidious to get rid of them.
>
>The public seems to have doubts already about the Jedi.
Score one for the Sith.
>A cloned army, which in the end "is used" for the benefit of the Republic
>actually gives them a good name.
"Is used" being in quotation means there's something else behind it.
Whatever it is, the the Republic doesn't need to know about it until
Ep3, and by then, Palpatine/Sidious/Sifo-Dyas will be using it all
against the Jedi so he can give them the boot.
>> After all, politicians try to discredit each other and each other's
>> factions all the time, so why should this be any different in that one
>> realm?
>
>Because Jedi are not politicians!
(back up 2 answers)
-Rainbow Heron
(sig hopes the scary termite dudes stay away from the neighborhood
tonight)
Now if only certain people around here would change their minds so
that I could see AOTC *this weekend*...
==========================================
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>> >Well, here Sidious keeps his ONLY name, if this is the case.
>>
>> I'm sorry but if Sidious is his only name, then you might as well say
>> that "Vader" is Anakin's only name.
>
>Well, isn't it?
>Noone knows him as Anakin apart from those close to him.
Think ahead to ESB and Sith names here.
Palpatine = Sidious
Anakin = Vader
"Vader" is not Anakin's only name.
No one knows him as Vader apart from those close to him until the last
few minutes of ESB.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig has another name)
Ergo, Sidious is not his (Palpatine's) only name either.
==========================================
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Rainbow Heron
Did they come right out and say that or is only the name familliar to
them somehow?
(by now you've probably seen the movie before I have)
>> So far they just seem confused as to whose identity is whose anbd the
>> only things they know for certain are that the Sith know stuff the
>> Jedi don't and that the Sith know the Jedi have the lower hand.
>
>That's why they want to question Sifo-Dyas.
Who wouldn't? :-)
-Rainbow Heron
(sig wants to ask him who the heck designed the clonetroopers' armor)
I'm imagining a scene with the Jedi Council questioning Sifo-Dyas
Homcide-style with Yoda as Pembleton. :-)
==========================================
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
iakovos
> Think ahead to ESB and Sith names here.
>
> Palpatine = Sidious
> Anakin = Vader
>
> "Vader" is not Anakin's only name.
>
> No one knows him as Vader apart from those close to him until the last
> few minutes of ESB.
I didn't see any imperial calling him Skywalker, or even Anakin...
They all called him Dark Lord. We must assume that Vader is his established
name.
Think to ANH here. Leia calls him Lord Vader. And so do the Imperials.
No one knows him as Anakin apart from the emperor, Yoda and Obi-wan.
> Ergo, Sidious is not his (Palpatine's) only name either.
Yes, that's true. However, Palpatine goes by the name of Emperor Palpatine
and not emperor Sidious.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
> >They know Sifo-Dyas in person, so they should recognize him.
>
> Did they come right out and say that or is only the name familliar to
> them somehow?
Sifo-Dyas is a master Jedi. The Jedi council appoints jedi knights the rank
of jedi.
They must have known him in person in order to hand him over the title.
> (by now you've probably seen the movie before I have)
Not yet. Tomorrow for me...
>
> >> So far they just seem confused as to whose identity is whose anbd the
> >> only things they know for certain are that the Sith know stuff the
> >> Jedi don't and that the Sith know the Jedi have the lower hand.
> >
> >That's why they want to question Sifo-Dyas.
>
> Who wouldn't? :-)
>
> -Rainbow Heron
> (sig wants to ask him who the heck designed the clonetroopers' armor)
>
> I'm imagining a scene with the Jedi Council questioning Sifo-Dyas
> Homcide-style with Yoda as Pembleton. :-)
Nah, Mulder Mace questioning him and Yoda Scully offering all the science
stuff.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"iakovos" <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote in message
news:10215395...@athprx02.forthnet.gr...
> Sifo-Dyas is a master Jedi. The Jedi council appoints jedi knights the
rank
> of jedi <master>.
> They must have known him in person in order to hand him over the title.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
> On Thu, 16 May 2002 10:01:55 +0300, "iakovos"
> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
> First off, which ng are you posting from cuz I'd like to gt this thing
> off the cross-post.
To both. Tell me which one you want and I'll stick with it :)
>
> >They do not have to assume if the guy just tells them so.
>
> So I could tell you that I am purple-eyed lizard and you would assume
> that I am telling you the truth?!
If you looked like one, yes.
Does Clinton have to tell you that he was a president?
> The Sith are thourough liars and exceptionally skilled at manipulating
> the truth. I wouldn't trust them to tell me truthfully what they
> didn't say yesterday.
Well, the Kamino guys cannot know the difference I guess.
>
> >Not necessary.
> >He just ordered 500.000 pieces of clones and hey, he's got the money for
it
> >in advance!
>
> Yes and that much money would be one way of proving the guy has power
> of some sort.
Exactly. With money comes power.
>
> But if the clones are being used for an army (as they obviously are)
> then any respected business would have to raise an eyebrow. Especially
> if the order was placed by a *supposed* Jedi. After all, don't the
> Jedi do the fighting themselves? The Jedi have no reason to create a
> clone army. It just doesn't jive.
Yes, you have a point there. but the order was through the Jedi FOR the
republic.
Not for the jedi themselves.
> >> "I'm a cop."
> >>
> >> "Let me see your badge"
> >
> >*waves hand*
> >
> >You do not have to see my badge.
> >
> >I do not have to see your badge.
> >
> >You are scared shitless.
> >
> >I am scared shitless.
>
> After guy leaves:
>
> "Wow what was that all about?"
>
> "Well I have a pre-paid order here for a clone army."
>
> "Wow who paid for it?"
>
> "I dunno but he used the Force. He said he was Master somebody."
>
> "Say who's that coming?"
>
> "Obi-Wan Kenobi, he's a Jedi."
>
> "Oh! Well then he can tell this Force-user Master guy "hi" for us!"
>
> "Hey Kenobi! Tell Your Master we said 'hi' and thanks for the cash!"
>
> "Who?!"
Well, Kenobi does not say who but... who? Him? I knew that guy...
> But are the Kamino guys cowards? Just cuz someone's intimidated
> doesn't mean they won't do their homework.
Well, usually when money are involved they should not care.
Besides the Kamino guys are not risking their own lives on this one as the
Trade Federation.
> >If my theory of Sifo-Dyas being a Shadow Jedi is true, then why should
they
> >think that this is not possible for a fellow jedi to do?
>
> Because a "fellow Jedi" is a fellow- he'd do what they would do. A
> "fellow Jedi" wouldn't order a clone army.
And Anakin would not turn to the dark side. He was a fellow previously.
> And yet they accepted Anakin when they sensed much fear in him.
The thing was forced.
> Seeing a pattern here?
Yes.
> >> If Sifo-Dyas is a supposed Jedi (Sith aside), and this said supposed
> >> Jedi put in an order to create a clone army, then it begs the question
> >> as to "why would a Jedi put in such an order?"
> >
> >Why would anyone put such an order?
>
> To stir up trouble. Jedi do not stir up trouble. Sith do.
Or politicians... but... Jedi do stir up trouble, as Dooku does (we do know
he IS a jedi).
> Plus, if the order was placed 10 years before the time when they are
> obviously needed, then someone knew 10 years ago that they'd be needed
> now. So either:
>
> 1. the person who placed the order could see into the future using the
> Force.
Long term plan?
> 2. the person had an attack plan to stir up trouble which would be
> executed 10 years later exactly which would involved the clone army
> 3. both of the above
It does not add up. If he could see the future why would he be so confident
that his own enemies will use the army HE created? The future is in great
motion.
Palpy takes a tremendous risk here.
> Only Sidious/Palpatine/Sifo-Dyas fits all the criteria, because a Jedi
> would not have placed the order 10 years ago with the intent of
> causing trouble, and its obvious that if the Dark Side is clouding up
> the future to the Jedi, then only a Sith could have done this.
Could it not be someone from the lost 20 that CAN still see the future and
wants to help the jedi?
Dooku wants to think so (despite the fact that he is with the bad guys).
> Hence Yoda's comment. They could not see it coming 10 years ago and
> they can't see what's coming now. Only the Sith can, and the Sith
> obviously know something the Jedi don't. And the Sith knows this
> because things are going forward and it ain't in the Jedis' favor.
Yes, agreed. However there is still reason for argument.
If you are so suspicious then why use the resources your enemy intended you
to use?
> >Yes, but the Jedi are not politicians.
>
> But they are being thown into the political arena unwillingly.
That does not make them politicians. They are political tools yes. But they
serve the greater cause, not petty things.
>
> First when Valorum sent Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan as Ambassadors, and now
> with the Jedi and the Clone Wars. Not to mention Anakin travelling
> with Padme.
They are used as tools, not as political powers themselves (think of the
NATO or UN forces, these do not dictate politics).
> The Clone army is a political tool. If the Jedi use the Clone army,
> then they are using a political tool and can be looked upon with many
> of the same scrutinies as a politician.
The clones are an army tool so far, not a political. Their use will be
political when the empire arrives, if indeed the Stormies are clones, which
I doubt.
> >The public seems to have doubts already about the Jedi.
>
> Score one for the Sith.
But they have always doubts for the Sith (thus the Rebel Alliance).
>
> >A cloned army, which in the end "is used" for the benefit of the Republic
> >actually gives them a good name.
>
> "Is used" being in quotation means there's something else behind it.
Yes, indeed.
>
> Whatever it is, the the Republic doesn't need to know about it until
> Ep3, and by then, Palpatine/Sidious/Sifo-Dyas will be using it all
> against the Jedi so he can give them the boot.
We do not know exactly what Palpatine/Sidious has in store for them too.
> >Because Jedi are not politicians!
>
> (back up 2 answers)
Back up you too...
> Now if only certain people around here would change their minds so
> that I could see AOTC *this weekend*...
Weekend? weekend? Not strong the force with this one...
Iakovos:)
Michael Halbrook
@athprx02.forthnet.gr:
> Does Clinton have to tell you that he was a president?
History and memory would tell us that. Now someone on his staff that
wasn't in the public eye...
Kothos
Palpatine becomes Emperor as a follow-on from being Chancellor. If he was
Cnacellor Palpatine then logically the Republic/Empire would know him as
Palpatine when he became Emperor. Perhaps he is still Darth Sidious to
himself? For Vader this sequence does not hold, perhaps even he wanted to
get away from being associated with Anakin Skywalker?
It seems to me that the sequence of events goes like this:
Either Darth Sidious exists from the beginning or not. Either way Sifo-Dyas
becomes a member of the Jedi Council. If he is Darth Sidious then this is
done fraudulently and if not then at some stage in the future he must fall
to the dark side and becomes Darth Sidious.
He fakes his death and leaves the coucil, reappearing as Senator Palpatine
(possibly with lots of reconstructive surgery?),
eventually becoming Emperor Palpatine. If Windu and Yoda know of him then
perhaps they realised he was a Sith while sitting on the Jedi Council and
somehow or other had him expelled (which would be whenabouts he faked his
death).
The only flaw in the above is that the Sith are supposed to have been dead
for thousands of years. Unless... he wasn't, or they didn't know he was, a
Sith when sitting on the Jedi Council - they just thought he had slipped to
the Dark Side and had him expelled for that.
That means by the end of Ep. II, Windu and Yoda know that the Jedi Master
they knew as Sifo-Dyas is the Sith Master that they are up against, although
they still don't know that it's Chancellor Palpatine.
Does that make any sense?
Kothos
mostly harmless
As Iokovas says, he was member of the Jedi Council, so I think they
_should_ recognise him. I had the same thought as you when I heard the
name and that it was Sideous with a slightly different name, but it
appears now its another Jedi with similar sounding name.
> So far they just seem confused as to whose identity is whose anbd the
> only things they know for certain are that the Sith know stuff the
> Jedi don't and that the Sith know the Jedi have the lower hand.
I hope they explain this in III, Im confused as to how they have lost
control of the force, nothing has explained that so far.
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
I know that but you're still assuming that this Sifo-Dyas guy is real!
People can fake this kind of stuff. Hell, I could tell you I was
Senator John McCain! I could even tell you I was Jane Doe Markenson
and give you a whole big long bullsh*t history!
But that doens't mean that I really am Senator John McCain or that
Jane Doe Markenson even exists.
I still think it's this Sifo-Dyas is just a pseudo made up by Sidious.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig could masquerade as DG)
If this is just another red herring then so be it, but you can't say
this kind of thing doesn't happen.
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Rainbow Heron
<tul...@OBVIOUSmindless.com> wrote:
If someone could *please* give me an acutal quote from the book (page
number) or movie on this stuff!!!
>> So far they just seem confused as to whose identity is whose anbd the
>> only things they know for certain are that the Sith know stuff the
>> Jedi don't and that the Sith know the Jedi have the lower hand.
>
>I hope they explain this in III, Im confused as to how they have lost
>control of the force, nothing has explained that so far.
It's not the actual Force itself they are losing control over, it's
their ability to use it to their full potential because they are being
blocked/clouded by the Dark Side.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig's siggy head is spinning)
Thank you!
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
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Oliver J. Hanau
Y
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A
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O
I
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A
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> If someone could *please* give me an acutal quote from the
> book (page number) or movie on this stuff!!!
As you wish:
OBI-WAN: They say a Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a clone army
at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago. I was under the
impression he was killed before that.
And that, er, is it. Windu and Yoda don't reply to this since Obi-Wan
changes the subject to whether the Senate ever approved of such a thing.
> Thank you!
Oli"welcome"ver.
[my sig is too shy to say something herself but smiles sheepishly]
iakovos
"Kothos" <kot...@dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
news:3ce39892$0$2523$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Perhaps.
For the rest
<snip>
check my other post.
>For Vader this sequence does not hold, perhaps even he wanted to
> get away from being associated with Anakin Skywalker?
Still we do not know why he would be willing to do that...
unless he sees himself like Adolf, then anyone would have prefered a nick
like Adolf than
Stalin, I guess... ;)
Iakovos:)
iakovos
> >> >> >The problem with this is if we assume that Sidious is Palpatine,
then
> >> >> >Yoda et al would recognise him and wonder why Sifo-Dyas was using
the
> >> >> >name Palpatine.
> >
> >> >They know Sifo-Dyas in person, so they should recognize him.
> >>
> >> Did they come right out and say that or is only the name familliar to
> >> them somehow?
> >
> >Sifo-Dyas is a master Jedi. The Jedi council appoints jedi knights the
rank
> >of jedi.
> >They must have known him in person in order to hand him over the title.
>
> I know that but you're still assuming that this Sifo-Dyas guy is real!
Well, he IS real for Obi-wan, Yoda and Mace.
> People can fake this kind of stuff. Hell, I could tell you I was
> Senator John McCain! I could even tell you I was Jane Doe Markenson
> and give you a whole big long bullsh*t history!
Not the same.
>
> But that doens't mean that I really am Senator John McCain or that
> Jane Doe Markenson even exists.
If I had met you in your State office, or in the Senate, then you would be
the one you claimed to be.
> I still think it's this Sifo-Dyas is just a pseudo made up by Sidious.
Then WHO is the dead guy that everyone knows? Chaplin?
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"mostly harmless" <tul...@OBVIOUSmindless.com> wrote in message
> As Iakovos says, he was member of the Jedi Council, so I think they
> _should_ recognise him.
He was not a member of the Jedi Council. However, he was a Jedi Master.
To get that title he had to face the Jedi Council.
> I hope they explain this in III, Im confused as to how they have lost
> control of the force, nothing has explained that so far.
Me too.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
news:32i7eu4n6545m3sro...@4ax.com...
> On 16 May 2002 11:17:26 GMT, mostly harmless
> <tul...@OBVIOUSmindless.com> wrote:
> >>>>>The existence of Sifo-Dyas means that he cannot be Sidious.
> >As Iokovas says, he was member of the Jedi Council,
Not a member, but a Jedi Master nonetheless.
> If someone could *please* give me an acutal quote from the book (page
> number) or movie on this stuff!!!
From the movie:
OBI-WAN (V.O.)
Yes Master. (pause) They said Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order
for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago.
I was under the impression that he was killed before that...
Non verbal reaction between MACE WINDU and YODA. They know something more
than OBI-WAN.
> It's not the actual Force itself they are losing control over, it's
> their ability to use it to their full potential because they are being
> blocked/clouded by the Dark Side.
Yes. Hard to see the dark side is.
Iakovos:)
FuzzyHorror
jedi from under the council's nose (Dooku and Anakin). Wouldn't it make
sense if Sifo-Dyas was another "fallen jedi"? Sidious uses him to place
the clone order, then for some reason or another he gets killed (by Sid
for knowing too much, or the council finds out Dyas isn't a light side
user anymore, or a bit of both). If Dyas only initiated the order, it
wouldn't be hard for Sidious to maintain connections to the cloners by
sending other lackeys under orders by the then-deceased Dyas.
--
FuzzyHorror
And as if in answer there came from far away another note.
Horns, Horns, Horns In dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed.
Great horns of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.
-RotK Book V, Chapter IV
Chris Donnell
"FuzzyHorror" <fuzzy...@i-55.com> wrote in message
news:3CE47EF7...@i-55.com...
Shaun Simmons
you read the book the kimonians ask this jedi/sith why he doesn't want a
clone of himself, with jedi powers they would be invincible as an army.
Dont ya think?? But if it was a sith wouldn't make sense to pick jango,
after all,
"Always two there are, a master and an aprentice" YODA
makes sense
simmy
Shaun Simmons
he the one who came up with the plan to have obi-won and ani gaurd
senator amidala.
dave109
--
Dave Stein
President
Red Flag Scale Modelers
Visit us on the Web at...
http://rfsm.net/
You Need A Hobby! **To reply remove the little x in my address**
Kothos
> jedi from under the council's nose (Dooku and Anakin). Wouldn't it make
> sense if Sifo-Dyas was another "fallen jedi"? Sidious uses him to place
> the clone order, then for some reason or another he gets killed (by Sid
> for knowing too much, or the council finds out Dyas isn't a light side
> user anymore, or a bit of both). If Dyas only initiated the order, it
> wouldn't be hard for Sidious to maintain connections to the cloners by
> sending other lackeys under orders by the then-deceased Dyas.
See that all works for me. The only thing that I would still wonder about
is why the name "Sifo-Dyas" is so close to "Sidious". Coincidence, or is
there more to it?
Kothos
FuzzyHorror
When I first heard the aliens say "Sifo-Dyas" I did think they were
saying a heavily accented "Sidious." However, I honestly can't see any
way for Palpatine and Sifo to be one and the same. AOTC is 10 years
after TPM (meaning TPM and Sifo's death happened roughly
simultaneously). Palpatine already had at least a fairly distinguished
career in Naboo politics (did he not? I haven't seen TPM in a while), or
at least enough that he didn't appear out of nowhere, and instantly
become the most important person in the galaxy.
I think it'd be funny to find out that Sifo-Dyas was actually Darth
Maul. Obi-Wan seems satisfied for whatever the council tells him, and I
don't think the council would share the fact that they have Knights and
Masters turning to the dark side.
>
> Kothos
iakovos
>
> "FuzzyHorror" <fuzzy...@i-55.com> wrote in message
> news:3CE47EF7...@i-55.com...
> > Am reading most of this thread.. It's obvious that Sidious is taking
> > jedi from under the council's nose (Dooku and Anakin).
Obvious.
>>Wouldn't it make
> > sense if Sifo-Dyas was another "fallen jedi"?
Yes, however we do not know.
>>Sidious uses him to place
> > the clone order, then for some reason or another he gets killed (by Sid
> > for knowing too much, or the council finds out Dyas isn't a light side
> > user anymore, or a bit of both).
The only problem lies in the assumption that Dyas is STILL alive.
>>If Dyas only initiated the order, it
> > wouldn't be hard for Sidious to maintain connections to the cloners by
> > sending other lackeys under orders by the then-deceased Dyas.
My suspicions lie in the assumption that the clones may have nothing to do
with Sidious in particular.
>
> See that all works for me. The only thing that I would still wonder about
> is why the name "Sifo-Dyas" is so close to "Sidious". Coincidence, or is
> there more to it?
Disturbing the dark side is...
Iakovos:)
iakovos
>
>
> Kothos wrote:
> >
> > "FuzzyHorror" <fuzzy...@i-55.com> wrote in message
> > news:3CE47EF7...@i-55.com...
about
> > is why the name "Sifo-Dyas" is so close to "Sidious". Coincidence, or
is
> > there more to it?
>
> When I first heard the aliens say "Sifo-Dyas" I did think they were
> saying a heavily accented "Sidious." However, I honestly can't see any
> way for Palpatine and Sifo to be one and the same.
Agreed.
>AOTC is 10 years
> after TPM (meaning TPM and Sifo's death happened roughly
> simultaneously).
Exactly.
> Palpatine already had at least a fairly distinguished
> career in Naboo politics (did he not? I haven't seen TPM in a while), or
> at least enough that he didn't appear out of nowhere, and instantly
> become the most important person in the galaxy.
>
> I think it'd be funny to find out that Sifo-Dyas was actually Darth
> Maul.
He cannot be Darth Maul cause Darth Maul would have been recognized by
Qui-Gon.
The assumption that Darth Maul is a Sith comes from Qui-Gon himself.
And Darth Maul is not known to Yoda and Mace as a former jedi Master.
>Obi-Wan seems satisfied for whatever the council tells him, and I
> don't think the council would share the fact that they have Knights and
> Masters turning to the dark side.
Or that they have Knights and Masters undercover.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"Shaun Simmons" <sim...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2073-3CE...@storefull-2253.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> the reason they know obi-won is coming is because palpy told them. Is't
> he the one who came up with the plan to have obi-won and ani gaurd
> senator amidala.
Yes, but the council ordered Obi to go to Kamino. Palpy could not have known
that.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
> I have been studying your posts. And I am also reading the novel. If
> you read the book the kimonians ask this jedi/sith why he doesn't want a
> clone of himself, with jedi powers they would be invincible as an army.
The clones of himself would be force sensible, but not force users (aka in
need of training).
Besides if he did as such the Jedi would have felt the great disturbance in
the force by non jedi force users.
> Dont ya think?? But if it was a sith wouldn't make sense to pick jango,
> after all...
>
> "Always two there are, a master and an aprentice" YODA
>
> makes sense
The one who made the order wanted expendable warriors to use as a tool.
Iakovos:)
FuzzyHorror
iakovos wrote:
>
> "FuzzyHorror" <fuzzy...@i-55.com> wrote in message
> news:3CE4F9A4...@i-55.com...
> >
> > I think it'd be funny to find out that Sifo-Dyas was actually Darth
> > Maul.
>
> He cannot be Darth Maul cause Darth Maul would have been recognized by
> Qui-Gon.
> The assumption that Darth Maul is a Sith comes from Qui-Gon himself.
> And Darth Maul is not known to Yoda and Mace as a former jedi Master.
I agree with you, but more for timing reasons. Doesn't Palpatine become
Chancellor after Maul is already dead? I know he wouldn't necessarily
need those political powers, but they'd make things a darn sight easier.
It's been a while.. but do we get exposition saying they don't know who
Maul was? I doubt I'd recognize my best friend if he was tatooed like
Maul; but the council would get a better look (plus dna analysis, etc)
>
> >Obi-Wan seems satisfied for whatever the council tells him, and I
> > don't think the council would share the fact that they have Knights and
> > Masters turning to the dark side.
>
> Or that they have Knights and Masters undercover.
Tru Dat
alpha
about
> > is why the name "Sifo-Dyas" is so close to "Sidious". Coincidence, or
is
> > there more to it?
>
> Disturbing the dark side is...
lol that is hilarious... using the inbuilt metaphors in Star Wars to justify
the way it's plot devices works. Lucas could be called a genius ;)
-alpha
iakovos
"alpha" <dukenuk...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ac2rqh$rsh$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
Lucas must be commented... for his lack of fate ;)
Iakovos:)
iakovos
>
>
> iakovos wrote:
> >
> > "FuzzyHorror" <fuzzy...@i-55.com> wrote in message
> > news:3CE4F9A4...@i-55.com...
> > >
> > > I think it'd be funny to find out that Sifo-Dyas was actually Darth
> > > Maul.
> >
> > He cannot be Darth Maul cause Darth Maul would have been recognized by
> > Qui-Gon.
> > The assumption that Darth Maul is a Sith comes from Qui-Gon himself.
> > And Darth Maul is not known to Yoda and Mace as a former jedi Master.
>
> I agree with you, but more for timing reasons. Doesn't Palpatine become
> Chancellor after Maul is already dead?
More or less.
>I know he wouldn't necessarily
> need those political powers, but they'd make things a darn sight easier.
> It's been a while.. but do we get exposition saying they don't know who
> Maul was? I doubt I'd recognize my best friend if he was tatooed like
> Maul; but the council would get a better look (plus dna analysis, etc)
That is a fact we do not know. Did they retrieve the body for analysis?
Iakovos:)
Maaike
> Is Sifo-Dyas the q-tip guy that isn't on the council anymore?
Nope; that's Yarael Poof.
-Maaike
FuzzyHorror
FuzzyHorror wrote:
> Maul was? I doubt I'd recognize my best friend if he was tatooed like
> Maul; but the council would get a better look (plus dna analysis, etc)
Ack.. just reread this.. I would NOT recoginze my best friend if he was
tatooed like Maul...
DrDuke10
>AOTC is 10 years
> after TPM (meaning TPM and Sifo's death happened roughly
> simultaneously).
>>
maybe when whoever told obi-wan said that sifo died, they meant it "from a
certain point of view.......that the jedi named sife-dyas ceased being a jedi
and "died" and fell to the dark side???? just my $1.39 worth
Celaeno
Y
O
U
K
N
O
W
T
H
E
D
R
I
L
L
.
.
.
>That means by the end of Ep. II, Windu and Yoda know that the Jedi Master
>they knew as Sifo-Dyas is the Sith Master that they are up against, although
>they still don't know that it's Chancellor Palpatine.
>
>Does that make any sense?
Since the Jedi Master they knew as Sifo-Dyas died before the army was
ordered, my answer would have to be No.
Rakelle
--
There was an old man
From Peru, whose limericks
Were really haiku
Celaeno
>Rainbow Heron <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in
>news:02c6euceap48jvnal...@4ax.com:
>
>> On 15 May 2002 11:12:47 GMT, mostly harmless
>> <tul...@OBVIOUSmindless.com> wrote:
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
>> So far they just seem confused as to whose identity is whose anbd the
>> only things they know for certain are that the Sith know stuff the
>> Jedi don't and that the Sith know the Jedi have the lower hand.
>
>I hope they explain this in III, Im confused as to how they have lost
>control of the force, nothing has explained that so far.
There seems to be something about the dark side clouding their minds.
Imagine how Yoda will feel when he finds out Sidious was right under
his nose, all the time.
Wonder who trained Sidious and how he managed to not be detected as a
child...
Celaeno
>http://www.jedinet.com/prequels/episode-ii/sith.asp
And, pray tell, why should I take their word for it?
CCC
> http://www.jedinet.com/prequels/episode-ii/sith.asp
This might be a good post to write SPOILER in the subject line and not
reveal this speculation there.
CCC
Dylan Verheul
>I agree with you, but more for timing reasons. Doesn't Palpatine become
>Chancellor after Maul is already dead? I know he wouldn't necessarily
>need those political powers, but they'd make things a darn sight easier.
Hello? TPM was all about Palpatine becoming Chancellor. That was the whole
idea of the Trade Federation/Naboo thingie.
Just like AotC is mainly about Palpatine gains dictator-like power,
D
--
Life would be much easier if I had the source code.
Darth Dennis
what I've made up:
Palpatine has several time just younger bodies to clone himself. After he
makes himself emperor of the galactic empire he will very close to Anakin.
Anakin will kill Darth Sidious and Palpatine will take his body.
Now about Sifo-Dyas. Sifa-Dyas was a jedi who was seduced by the dark site
and wanted to do the same as palpatine know. So 10 years before Attack of
the Clones he made an army but he has been killed by a jedi.
frogfrog666
First of all, Darth Maul is completely tatooed all over his body and
face, so it's reasonable to assume that Qui Gon might not recognise
him for some time. Second of all, about 2 second before Qui Gon dies,
take a look at the expression on his face...That look is possible
recognition.
> The assumption that Darth Maul is a Sith comes from Qui-Gon himself.
> And Darth Maul is not known to Yoda and Mace as a former jedi Master.
Darth Maul gives it all away in the film when he says "at last we will
reveal ourselves to the Jedi" who do you think he was planning on
revealing himself as? Just some random sith lord dude?
> > Obi-Wan seems satisfied for whatever the council tells him, and I
> > don't think the council would share the fact that they have Knights and
> > Masters turning to the dark side.
>
> Or that they have Knights and Masters undercover.
>
> Iakovos:)
Them saying Sifo Dyas is dead, is the same thing as Obi Wan telling
Luke Anakin is dead...It's all the same, it's so lucas. Maul is most
likely Sifo Dyas...I have solved the mystery. When it is revealed in
3 years, you know where you heard it first.
Nicholas Bales
> Them saying Sifo Dyas is dead, is the same thing as Obi Wan telling
> Luke Anakin is dead...It's all the same, it's so lucas. Maul is most
> likely Sifo Dyas...I have solved the mystery. When it is revealed in
> 3 years, you know where you heard it first.
I said it first. 2 weeks ago.
Anonymous
"Nicholas Bales" <ba...@online.fr> wrote in message
news:3d0070e7$0$273$626a...@news.free.fr...
Why didn't Qui-Gonn or Obi-Wan recognise him?
I suppose that could be tatoos on his face.
FWIW, I said three years ago that Sidious is Anakin's 'father' (from a
certain point of view). In three years you'll all know I was correct.
Tucci
> Luke Anakin is dead...It's all the same, it's so lucas. Maul is most
> likely Sifo Dyas...I have solved the mystery. When it is revealed in
> 3 years, you know where you heard it first.
It's a cool theory, but I don't think he'll do that. A shame, too --
I like it!
:-/ I am Sifo-Dyas
"Tucci" <tu...@tucci.net> wrote in message
news:3d010150...@news.optonline.net...
Paula
I like it, too!
Celaeno
>Them saying Sifo Dyas is dead, is the same thing as Obi Wan telling
>Luke Anakin is dead...It's all the same, it's so lucas. Maul is most
>likely Sifo Dyas...I have solved the mystery. When it is revealed in
>3 years, you know where you heard it first.
You do realize I have to severely hurt you with this herring now,
don't you?
Anybody
<ba...@online.fr> wrote:
I can't believe noone can see the truth.
It's SO obvious: Sifo-Dyas = Sido-Dyas = Sidious.
;-)
:-/ I am Sifo-Dyas
"Anybody" <any...@anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
news:080620021135113774%any...@anywhere-anytime.com...
Palpatine/Sifo-Dyas? Did he have "soap-opera plastic surgery" or an
industrial accident? Or am I missing something?
Paula
Anybody
Errr ... it was a joke, hence the ;-) (winking smiley) on the end.
Oh well. :-\
BUT, not getting into the Palpatine is/isn't Sidious argument,
Palpatine could be a chageling. :-)
:-/ I am Sifo-Dyas
Oops... should have scrolled down a couple more lines.
iakovos
"frogfrog666" <frogf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f71d6841.02060...@posting.google.com...
> "iakovos" <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote in message
news:<10216332...@athprx02.forthnet.gr>...
> > "FuzzyHorror" <fuzzy...@i-55.com> wrote in message
> > news:3CE4F9A4...@i-55.com...
> face, so it's reasonable to assume that Qui Gon might not recognise
> him for some time. Second of all, about 2 second before Qui Gon dies,
> take a look at the expression on his face...That look is possible
> recognition.
That look is "Oh, shit, I'm dead!" Besides Qui-Gon dies rather abnormally.
He is tricked to die, not worn out or anything like Luke was in ESB.
> Darth Maul gives it all away in the film when he says "at last we will
> reveal ourselves to the Jedi" who do you think he was planning on
> revealing himself as? Just some random sith lord dude?
Well, yes. Unless Sifo-Dyas was a former Sith too, perhaps the teacher of
Sidious.
OMG, a NEW plot twist!!!
> Them saying Sifo Dyas is dead, is the same thing as Obi Wan telling
> Luke Anakin is dead...It's all the same, it's so lucas.
Yes, the only problem is that THEY do not say it.
>Maul is most
> likely Sifo Dyas...I have solved the mystery. When it is revealed in
> 3 years, you know where you heard it first.
Unless the real Sifo-Dyas comes to hunt you down. :D
Iakovos:)
Celaeno
*gives up and just drowns the entire thread in herring*
Tucci
>I can't believe noone can see the truth.
>It's SO obvious: Sifo-Dyas = Sido-Dyas = Sidious.
It's not that no one can see the truth -- Sidious being Sifo-Dyas is a
possibility that's probably obvious to everyone. However, that would
mean the Jedi would have known both Palpatine and Sifo-Dyas and not
realized he was the same guy, which seems ridiculous. That's why
people are looking for alternate identities for Sifo-Dyas.
Anybody
(Tucci) wrote:
Err ... yeah.
There was a winking smiley on the end of the original message, but
maybe nobody knows what smileys are any more. :-\
Celaeno
Mister, I have a herring and I am not afraid to use it.
Sifo-Dyas DOES NOT NEED an alternative identity.
Thank you, drive through.