If Palpy *is* Sidious...
SpammersDie
John Rooksby wrote in message <7p05ra$rc5$1...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older?
He doesn't.
>Why does he
>bother to appear as if he is trying to generate questions over his 'true'
>identity i.e. hiding away beneath a hood?
Maybe because if it got out that you were behind the invasion of the very
planet you were sworn to represent, it just might have a negative effect on
your standing in the opinion polls?
>Don't you think GL would have made TPM in such a way that there could be no
>question that Palpy is Sidious if it is supposed to be sooooo obvious?
He did. Some people just refuse to see it.
John Rooksby
bother to appear as if he is trying to generate questions over his 'true'
identity i.e. hiding away beneath a hood?
question that Palpy is Sidious if it is supposed to be sooooo obvious?
I believe there simply has to be more to this than meets the eyes of the
'Palpy IS Sidious' brigade.
Regards,
John Rooksby.
"That wasn't a laser blast. Something hit us!" - Han Solo.
U211
<Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older? Why does he
It's a duality. Palpatine is supposed to be a warm, friendly senator.
His secret identity an evil monster. Also remember that the emperor
you see in ROTJ is 30 years older than the senator in TPM. If memeory
serves me correctly, we never see Sidious's face in TPM. It's all
just chin shots.
>bother to appear as if he is trying to generate questions over his 'true'
>identity i.e. hiding away beneath a hood?
>Don't you think GL would have made TPM in such a way that there could be no
>question that Palpy is Sidious if it is supposed to be sooooo obvious?
>
It's called foreshadowing. Because of internet, toys, books, & other
sources, hard-core SW fans already know palpatine is sidious.
However, most of the general public don't know this. The average
person will be surprised to discover that the cordial good-guy
Palpatine is an evil warmonger in Episode 2. It's a plot twist
similar to the Vader-is-Luke's-Dad surprise in ESB. SW fans won't be
surprised, but most casual fans will be. When the average movie
watcher saw TPM, he *thinks* the movie had a happy ending. SW fans
have a different view --- they *know* that the movie's conclusion is a
"bad" ending because Palpatine has taken the first step in building
the Empire.
>I believe there simply has to be more to this than meets the eyes of the
>'Palpy IS Sidious' brigade.
>
Face it, palpatine *is* sidious. The same actor plays Darth Sidious
and Senator Palpatine. This is also the same actor that played the
Emperor in ROTJ. Go connect the dots. GL doesn't go right out and
tell us that Palpatine is Sidious in TPM. Similarly, he doesn't go
right out and tell us that Vader is Luke's father in ANH. Instead, he
gives vague hints & clues in both movies. Everything will be revealed
in the "middle" episodes (ep2, ep5)
Wedge Antilles
later,
Wedge
John Rooksby wrote in message <7p05ra$rc5$1...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older? Why does
he
>bother to appear as if he is trying to generate questions over his 'true'
>identity i.e. hiding away beneath a hood?
>Don't you think GL would have made TPM in such a way that there could be no
>question that Palpy is Sidious if it is supposed to be sooooo obvious?
>
>I believe there simply has to be more to this than meets the eyes of the
>'Palpy IS Sidious' brigade.
>
Ursula
<Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older? Why does he
> bother to appear as if he is trying to generate questions over his 'true'
> identity i.e. hiding away beneath a hood?
> Don't you think GL would have made TPM in such a way that there could be no
> question that Palpy is Sidious if it is supposed to be sooooo obvious?
>
> I believe there simply has to be more to this than meets the eyes of the
> 'Palpy IS Sidious' brigade.
>
> Regards,
>
> John Rooksby.
Okay, I've got a question in the other direction and I apologise in
advance if it's old news.
But I wanted to ask - IF Palpy *isn't* Sidious - what happens to
Sidious?
The Emperor is Palpy [Emperor Palpatine (TM) got him right here on my
Pizza Hut jigsaw puzzle next to his younger self Senator Palpatine
(TM)] and also Vader's Master - where does Sidious fit in and what
happens to him if they aren't the same person?
And what ever happens will have to happen fairly quickly. Are we also
then speculating that Palpatine becomes Sidious' new apprentice and
then bumps him off in time to welcome young Anakin into the joys of the
Dark Side?
Sounds like hard work to me.
Ursula
Chris Johnson
Sidious is Palpatine or whether Sidious isn't Palpatine, then why don't we
just wait for Episode 2 to come out? I hate to quote the cocky Tarkin but,
"This bickering is pointless!"
-Chris Johnson
John Rooksby <Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7p05ra$rc5$1...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older? Why does
he
> bother to appear as if he is trying to generate questions over his 'true'
> identity i.e. hiding away beneath a hood?
> Don't you think GL would have made TPM in such a way that there could be
no
> question that Palpy is Sidious if it is supposed to be sooooo obvious?
>
> I believe there simply has to be more to this than meets the eyes of the
> 'Palpy IS Sidious' brigade.
>
> Regards,
>
> John Rooksby.
>
John Rooksby
----- Original Message -----
From: U211 <unit...@spam.yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.starwars
Sent: 13 August 1999 06:29
Subject: Re: If Palpy *is* Sidious...
> On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 05:09:03 +0100, "John Rooksby"
> <Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older? Why does
he
>
> It's a duality. Palpatine is supposed to be a warm, friendly senator.
> His secret identity an evil monster.
Why does he need a secret identity? Whenever we see Sidious he is either
surrounded by his minions or on 'home turf.' He is easily capable of
defending himself against any attack save one from two or more Jedi masters!
And I'm not one of those who believe that Sidious ever turned up on
Coruscant, and if he did, he clearly didn't think it necessary to disguise
himself then, even when he was so close to the Jedi council! So he's either
such a fool that he disguises himself amongst his own minions and doesn't
when he most needs to, or he just can't bear to wear the Chansellors outfit
any longer than he has to (even if he does have to make many a quick
change)! Perhaps he's practising for the next panto season!
Also remember that the emperor
> you see in ROTJ is 30 years older than the senator in TPM.
What's that got to do with anything? As it happens, I think Sidious looks
identical to the Emperor in TROTJ; that's actually who I (and my friends)
thought he was supposed to be. It was only when Senator Palpatine was
introduced that I realised 'the Emperor' was not the Emperor we all know.
Why can't he simply be the present Emperor? (And that the clasp he wears
(that the Emperor wore in TROTJ) is a historical badge of office)?
If memeory
> serves me correctly, we never see Sidious's face in TPM. It's all
> just chin shots.
>
Not true: we were able to see his nose, cheeks and brow as well as chin. He
looked clearly older to me.
>
> >bother to appear as if he is trying to generate questions over his 'true'
> >identity i.e. hiding away beneath a hood?
> >Don't you think GL would have made TPM in such a way that there could be
no
> >question that Palpy is Sidious if it is supposed to be sooooo obvious?
> >
>
> It's called foreshadowing.
As a qualified filmmaker, I am fully aware of the concept of
*foreshadowing*; you however are not so clear. What you have labelled
foreshadowing in TPM is in fact something new, akin to foreshadowing maybe,
but new nonetheless. Historically there have been so few 'prequels' of
movies (and none that I can think of that require the level of attention to
continuity that Star Wars fans demand), that a term has yet to be devised
for the phenomenon you speak of (as far as I know). An example of
foreshadowing would be the showing of the gun in act one which prepares the
audience for its firing in act three. Sidious in TPM is revealed as nothing
more than he was at the beginning of the film - a Sith master.
>
Because of internet, toys, books, & other
> sources, hard-core SW fans already know Palpatine is Sidious.
Already *think* they know; this is a classic case of trying to second guess
a story that hasn't even been completed yet! Obviously it is possible to
speculate intelligently about the next episodes but allowing oneself to be
influenced by non-canon sources and letting such information undermine one's
ability to judge the film objectively, based on what is actually certain as
opposed to imagined, is what I believe many on this NG are falling prey to.
Having said this, I don't want to give the impression that I am in any way
convinced that Palpatine and Sidious are not one and the same. I merely
question much of that which has been forwarded as *evidence* to support the
claim.
BTW. I *am* a *hard core* Star Wars fan (though I hasten to add that I'm not
anally retentive about it!).
> However, most of the general public don't know this. The average
> person will be surprised to discover that the cordial good-guy
> Palpatine is an evil warmonger in Episode 2. It's a plot twist
> similar to the Vader-is-Luke's-Dad surprise in ESB. SW fans won't be
> surprised, but most casual fans will be. When the average movie
> watcher saw TPM, he *thinks* the movie had a happy ending. SW fans
> have a different view --- they *know* that the movie's conclusion is a
> "bad" ending because Palpatine has taken the first step in building
> the Empire.
> >I believe there simply has to be more to this than meets the eyes of the
> >'Palpy IS Sidious' brigade.
> >
>
>
> Face it, palpatine *is* sidious. The same actor plays Darth Sidious
> and Senator Palpatine. This is also the same actor that played the
> Emperor in ROTJ. Go connect the dots.
You say 'face it' as if I'm afraid, that somehow my life will be effected if
I don't agree with you. Well, I'm sorry if it bothers you, but I'll stay
here on the objective side of the fence thank you. And if I turn out to be
wrong, you can feel free to parade about behind me wherever I go, waving the
banners of your triumph and ridiculing me through loud-speakers for all the
world to know about my Star Wars ineptitude.
But you won't............so I guess I'm safe.
Just because Ian McDiarmid played all the parts in question doesn't mean a
flying fruit bat! Why should GL pay another actor to play the part? It's
perfectly logical he should play the senator, and as the Sidious role merely
requires someone to look like the Emperor, why not save some money and have
McDiarmid play that role as well. And if you think that GL wouldn't
penny-pinch like that, why didn't he spend money on digitally altering the
face of the *non-S.L.Jackson' Mace Windu? There was plenty of time in the
schedule for it, because there was considerably less re-shooting to do than
Rick McCallum had budgeted and scheduled for.
GL doesn't go right out and
> tell us that Palpatine is Sidious in TPM. Similarly, he doesn't go
> right out and tell us that Vader is Luke's father in ANH. Instead, he
> gives vague hints & clues in both movies.
He doesn't give any such 'vague clues and hints'! He doesn't give a single
clue as to Vader's true identity in Star Wars, and to speculate such a thing
would be similar to what you are doing about Palpy/Sidious, only with less
evidence.
Everything will be revealed
> in the "middle" episodes (ep2, ep5)
*Everything*? I think not!
Regards,
John Rooksby.
"You know between his howling and your blasting everything in sight, it's a
wonder the whole station doesn't know we're here!" - Luke Skywalker.
John Rooksby
<Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older? Why does
he
> bother to appear as if he is trying to generate questions over his 'true'
> identity i.e. hiding away beneath a hood?
> Don't you think GL would have made TPM in such a way that there could be
no
> question that Palpy is Sidious if it is supposed to be sooooo obvious?
>
> I believe there simply has to be more to this than meets the eyes of the
> 'Palpy IS Sidious' brigade.
>
> Regards,
>
> John Rooksby.
Okay, I've got a question in the other direction and I apologise in
advance if it's old news.
But I wanted to ask - IF Palpy *isn't* Sidious - what happens to
Sidious?
The Emperor is Palpy [Emperor Palpatine (TM) got him right here on my
Pizza Hut jigsaw puzzle next to his younger self Senator Palpatine
(TM)] and also Vader's Master - where does Sidious fit in and what
happens to him if they aren't the same person?
And what ever happens will have to happen fairly quickly. Are we also
then speculating that Palpatine becomes Sidious' new apprentice and
then bumps him off in time to welcome young Anakin into the joys of the
Dark Side?
Sounds like hard work to me.
Seems perfectly feasible. At last someone seems to have seen through the
fog created by hard core fans of such subjectivity that they come to believe
their speculations have become graven in stone, and make some people afraid
to challenge them for fear of ridicule. Baa! Baa!
Regards,
John Rooksby.
"Your mind powers will not work on me - boy!" - Jabba the Hutt.
Wes Hutchings
----------
In article <130819992330008530%in...@ozemail.com.au>, Ursula
<in...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> In article <7p05ra$rc5$1...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Rooksby
> <Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older?
He only seems older due to the hood and lighting.
>> Why does he
>> bother to appear as if he is trying to generate questions over his 'true'
>> identity i.e. hiding away beneath a hood?
It beats 'revealing' his true identity. He doesn't want people to know who
he is yet. He is in a position in which he can play both ends against the
middle and he's using every chance to make that advantage work for him.
>> Don't you think GL would have made TPM in such a way that there could be no
>> question that Palpy is Sidious if it is supposed to be sooooo obvious?
It was obvious to most of the people I've discussed it with. There is
certainly a little mystery to the matter, but not so much that it can't be
reasoned out if the effort to do so is made.
>>
>> I believe there simply has to be more to this than meets the eyes of the
>> 'Palpy IS Sidious' brigade.
Wouldn't we be the brigade in that scenario/ In that case , yes. We are
definitely more than meats the eye, since , very few people know what very
few of us are like or look like.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> John Rooksby.
>
> Okay, I've got a question in the other direction and I apologise in
> advance if it's old news.
>
> But I wanted to ask - IF Palpy *isn't* Sidious - what happens to
> Sidious?
Then he would be the master and Palpy would be his identical twin apprentice
who has hidden his talents from the council, senate and the individual Jedi,
without training before that time and he will be the one who kills Sidious
and then takes Anakin as his apprentice.
>
> The Emperor is Palpy [Emperor Palpatine (TM) got him right here on my
> Pizza Hut jigsaw puzzle next to his younger self Senator Palpatine
> (TM)] and also Vader's Master - where does Sidious fit in and what
> happens to him if they aren't the same person?
See above.
>
> And what ever happens will have to happen fairly quickly. Are we also
> then speculating that Palpatine becomes Sidious' new apprentice and
> then bumps him off in time to welcome young Anakin into the joys of the
> Dark Side?
Oooh, that's eerie.
wes
>
> Sounds like hard work to me.
>
> Ursula
Wes Hutchings
----------
In article <7p1d9k$81to$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>, "Chris Johnson"
<ASP...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have just one thing to say: If we can't make up our minds as to whether
> Sidious is Palpatine or whether Sidious isn't Palpatine, then why don't we
> just wait for Episode 2 to come out? I hate to quote the cocky Tarkin but,
> "This bickering is pointless!"
It sure helps pass the time though, plus it provides an excellent
cardiovascular workout if I don't blow an artery first.
wes
>
> -Chris Johnson
>
> John Rooksby <Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:7p05ra$rc5$1...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older? Why does
> he
>> bother to appear as if he is trying to generate questions over his 'true'
>> identity i.e. hiding away beneath a hood?
>> Don't you think GL would have made TPM in such a way that there could be
> no
>> question that Palpy is Sidious if it is supposed to be sooooo obvious?
>>
>> I believe there simply has to be more to this than meets the eyes of the
>> 'Palpy IS Sidious' brigade.
>>
Wulfruna
y.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older? Why does he
>bother to appear as if he is trying to generate questions over his 'true'
>identity i.e. hiding away beneath a hood?
>Don't you think GL would have made TPM in such a way that there could be no
>question that Palpy is Sidious if it is supposed to be sooooo obvious?
>
>I believe there simply has to be more to this than meets the eyes of the
>'Palpy IS Sidious' brigade.
>
>
might be a bit miffed if he finds out that his Chancellor is planning
to take over his job.
--
Wulfruna
SpammersDie
John Rooksby wrote in message <7p1he7$loi$4...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: U211 <unit...@spam.yahoo.com>
>Newsgroups: alt.fan.starwars
>Sent: 13 August 1999 06:29
>Subject: Re: If Palpy *is* Sidious...
>
>
>> On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 05:09:03 +0100, "John Rooksby"
>> <Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older? Why
does
>he
>>
>> It's a duality. Palpatine is supposed to be a warm, friendly senator.
>> His secret identity an evil monster.
>
>Why does he need a secret identity? Whenever we see Sidious he is either
>surrounded by his minions or on 'home turf.'
There's no evidence that the TF knows Sidious's true identity as Palpatine.
Nor does he gain anything by letting them know.
The one time Sidious is in the hood and not with the TF is in the one scene
on Coruscant where he's talking to Darth Maul. The most likely explanation
is that he just got off another offscreen holoconference with the TF, and
hasn't had time to change. Another explanation is even Maul isn't in on
Sid's true identity (he doesn't have a NTK).
> He is easily capable of
>defending himself against any attack save one from two or more Jedi
masters!
Even a Sith can't fight off the entire galaxy by himself. He still needs to
keep Palpatine squeaky clean until he can consolidate the military and
political power he needs to keep his rule over the Empire.
>And I'm not one of those who believe that Sidious ever turned up on
>Coruscant,
He does show up on Coruscant talking to Maul. ("At last, we'll reveal
ourselves to the Jedi. At least, we'll have revenge.")
>Also remember that the emperor
>> you see in ROTJ is 30 years older than the senator in TPM.
>
>What's that got to do with anything? As it happens, I think Sidious looks
>identical to the Emperor in TROTJ; that's actually who I (and my friends)
>thought he was supposed to be. It was only when Senator Palpatine was
>introduced that I realised 'the Emperor' was not the Emperor we all know.
>Why can't he simply be the present Emperor?
What is the purpose of spending all that time showing him rising into power
as Chancellor then? TPM and ROJ are the two bookends of the story. It makes
sense to start with the same main villain you end up with. What's the point
of introducing a another character who just looks like the main villain and
attains the same position that the main villain eventually attains? Why
introduce such a pointless plot complication?
>If memeory
>> serves me correctly, we never see Sidious's face in TPM. It's all
>> just chin shots.
>>
>Not true: we were able to see his nose, cheeks and brow as well as chin.
He
>looked clearly older to me.
Neither one of them are spring chickens. Sidious is almost always seen as a
hologram which strips off all the flesh color; of course, it won't showcase
his youth.
>>GL doesn't go right out and
>> tell us that Palpatine is Sidious in TPM. Similarly, he doesn't go
>> right out and tell us that Vader is Luke's father in ANH. Instead, he
>> gives vague hints & clues in both movies.
>
>He doesn't give any such 'vague clues and hints'! He doesn't give a single
>clue as to Vader's true identity in Star Wars, and to speculate such a
thing
>would be similar to what you are doing about Palpy/Sidious, only with less
>evidence.
And of course, anyone who did speculate that back in the late 70's would
have been proven correct. And it's not just wild speculation. SW:ANH left us
with a vaguely uncomfortable loose end in that the random young farmer who
wound up with the droids seemingly by chance turns out to not only be the
gifted son of a powerful Jedi (statistically pretty rare), he's the son of
someone who was once a friend ("BETRAYED and murdered") of another powerful
Jedi who happens to be the Bad Guy that the droids are fleeing from. The
story in ANH never really justifies the attention given on Luke's father.
Luke's deification of his dead father isn't what causes him to join the
rebels; it's the more immediate loss of the people he actually knows (his
uncle, aunts, and later, Obi-Wan) that makes him so committed. Nor is
necessary to explain why Luke out of everyone else is so powerful with the
Force (the Force isn't even explained as a hereditary thing until ROJ.)
We didn't have the kind of channels for spreading rumors back then that we
do now, and the hints in ANH are way more subtle (not to mention, we weren't
conditioned to expect this kind of plot twist from Lucas back then.) But I'd
be surprised if it never entered somebody's mind out there that maybe the
Father and the Fallen Student were one and the same.
Wes Hutchings
----------
In article <pYqXcEAw...@guildnavigator.demon.co.uk>, Wulfruna
<Wulf...@guildnavigator.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <7p05ra$rc5$1...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Rooksby <John@rooksb
> y.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>>If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older? Why does he
>>bother to appear as if he is trying to generate questions over his 'true'
>>identity i.e. hiding away beneath a hood?
>>Don't you think GL would have made TPM in such a way that there could be no
>>question that Palpy is Sidious if it is supposed to be sooooo obvious?
>>
>>I believe there simply has to be more to this than meets the eyes of the
>>'Palpy IS Sidious' brigade.
>>
>>
> Just curious, but does anyone know if there is an Emperor already? He
> might be a bit miffed if he finds out that his Chancellor is planning
> to take over his job.
> --
> Wulfruna
Nope. No Emperor at the time. Palpatine will declare himself Emperor after
he's gained the presidency.
More proof that the PhantomMenace is really Bill Clinton.
wes
Kessler
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: U211 <unit...@spam.yahoo.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.fan.starwars
> Sent: 13 August 1999 06:29
> Subject: Re: If Palpy *is* Sidious...
>
>
> > On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 05:09:03 +0100, "John Rooksby"
> > <Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > >If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older? Why
does
> he
> >
> > It's a duality. Palpatine is supposed to be a warm, friendly senator.
> > His secret identity an evil monster.
>
> Why does he need a secret identity?
Umm.. because the Galactic Senate might not be disposed to voting a
murdering. warmongering Sith Lord in as the Chancellor? Or am I missing
something obvious?
Vice Admiral Kessler
John Rooksby
Only your speculation that he is Palpatine.
Regards,
John Rooksby.
"Who is the more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows it?" - Obi-wan
Kenobi.
Kessler
True, but it's my speculation that's being asked for. I'm the first to
admit, however, that's only speculation, since Lucas intentionally left it
open to debate. But the circumstantial evidence does point to Palaptine
being Sidious, even though that evidence isn't conclusive.
Vice Admiral Kessler
John Rooksby
John Rooksby wrote in message <7p1he7$loi$4...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: U211 <unit...@spam.yahoo.com>
>Newsgroups: alt.fan.starwars
>Sent: 13 August 1999 06:29
>Subject: Re: If Palpy *is* Sidious...
>
>
>> On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 05:09:03 +0100, "John Rooksby"
>> <Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
What is the purpose of spending all that time showing him rising into power
as Chancellor then?
Because he is to become the Emperor. It is not a corollary of this that
Sidious is Palpatine!
TPM and ROJ are the two bookends of the story. It makes
sense to start with the same main villain you end up with. What's the point
of introducing a another character who just looks like the main villain
Does he? Sidious looks like Palpatine? Perhaps you have convinced yourself
that the two characters look alike, because you know he is being played by
the same actor.
If one didn't know this *esoteric* fact, you would think they were
completely different - there is certainly no similarity in costume, voice or
nature, and only an arguable similarity in looks.
and attains the same position that the main villain eventually attains? Why
introduce such a pointless plot complication?
You are assuming that Sidious *is* the Emperor ["attains the same
position..."]. This *must* be wrong because as such, he wouldn't need to
*fight* to win political advantages, as he does over Naboo; he would already
hold all the cards.
Assuming that he isn't Palpatine, the reason for the Sidious character would
be as a reintroduction, into the Star Wars story at this time, of the Sith,
who had been 'extinct' for many years - remember, someone has to train
Palpatine in the ways of the Dark side, and now that Maul is gone...
He (and Maul) also allow GL to showcase the Jedis' powers, in a conflict
that is entirely separate from the (as yet secret) political agenda of
Palpatine.
>If memeory
>> serves me correctly, we never see Sidious's face in TPM. It's all
>> just chin shots.
>>
>Not true: we were able to see his nose, cheeks and brow as well as chin.
He
>looked clearly older to me.
Neither one of them are spring chickens. Sidious is almost always seen as a
hologram which strips off all the flesh color; of course, it won't showcase
his youth.
Sorry, I don't buy this.
>>GL doesn't go right out and
>> tell us that Palpatine is Sidious in TPM. Similarly, he doesn't go
>> right out and tell us that Vader is Luke's father in ANH. Instead, he
>> gives vague hints & clues in both movies.
>
>He doesn't give any such 'vague clues and hints'! He doesn't give a single
>clue as to Vader's true identity in Star Wars, and to speculate such a
thing
>would be similar to what you are doing about Palpy/Sidious, only with less
>evidence.
And of course, anyone who did speculate that back in the late 70's would
have been proven correct.
True; but they wouldn't have speculated such a thing! The audience only
knows that Vader killed Luke's father (because Obi-wan revealed this); they
have no reason to doubt Obi-wan, and every reason to believe that Vader
could have been so evil.
The reason Luke's father *was* mentioned, was to provide Luke with the
'secret heritage' element that is characteristic of so many fairy tales, a
'specialness', like Arthur's birthright to Excaliber, which would enable him
to emerge victorious.
And it's not just wild speculation. SW:ANH left us
with a vaguely uncomfortable loose end in that the random young farmer who
wound up with the droids seemingly by chance
Luke was near at hand because Obi-wan was charged with guarding Luke from
the Emperor. Although this was not revealed to the audience, they *were*
told of Annikin's request of Obi-wan that he give Luke his old lightsabre,
*and* that he was a good friend of Luke's father. As such, it is not
unreasonable that Obi-wan should not only feel a certain responsibility for
Luke, but also have a natural interest in the boy.
The scene is also included as exposition of Ben Kenobi as ex-Jedi knight,
which lends credibility to Luke's awakening to the Force, which enables him
to 'avenge his father' and become a hero.
turns out to not only be the
gifted son of a powerful Jedi (statistically pretty rare), he's the son of
someone who was once a friend ("BETRAYED and murdered") of another powerful
Jedi who happens to be the Bad Guy that the droids are fleeing from. The
story in ANH never really justifies the attention given on Luke's father.
Necessary exposition, without which the story would have no mythical
quality, no quality of 'coming of age', of reclaiming a birthright; without
it, Luke would be leaving with Ben for no other reason than his boredom of
farm life and because Ben requested it. I certainly don't buy that Luke's
main reason for joining the Rebellion was the death of his Uncle and Aunt;
this was a plot point to remove his ties to Tatooine. His options at that
point were to stay and try to pick up the pieces of his life or begin anew
elsewhere (which we already knew he wanted).
Luke's deification of his dead father isn't what causes him to join the
rebels; it's the more immediate loss of the people he actually knows (his
uncle, aunts, and later, Obi-Wan) that makes him so committed. Nor is
necessary to explain why Luke out of everyone else is so powerful with the
Force (the Force isn't even explained as a hereditary thing until ROJ.)
- the mere notion of 'a birthright' is all that is needed.
We didn't have the kind of channels for spreading rumors back then that we
do now, and the hints in ANH are way more subtle (not to mention, we weren't
conditioned to expect this kind of plot twist from Lucas back then.) But I'd
be surprised if it never entered somebody's mind out there that maybe the
Father and the Fallen Student were one and the same.
There was nothing in the film to suggest this. No reason to disbelieve
Kenobi (Luke himself always believed him) and plenty of expositional reasons
for mentioning Luke's father. Why else write in that Luke gain possession
of a lightsabre, if it wasn't to suggest a certain heritage quality? Why
else have Kenobi flatter Luke on his piloting - right after saying that
Luke's father was a great pilot - if not to suggest that Luke may be
destined to discover 'and claim' his inherited skills?
To conclude, all I'm saying is that the arguments I have heard in support of
the speculation that Sidious is Palpatine, can readily and reasonably be
challenged.
Regards,
John Rooksby.
"The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field, created by
all living things. It surrounds us, and penetrates us...it binds the galaxy
together." - Obi-wan Kenobi.
The Johnster
Wedge Antilles <we...@tauniverse.com> wrote in message
news:7p0s64$oag$1...@newsource.ihug.co.nz...
> the thing is, it's not supposed to be blatantly obvious.
>
> later,
> Wedge
>
> John Rooksby wrote in message <7p05ra$rc5$1...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> >If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older? Why does
> he
> >bother to appear as if he is trying to generate questions over his 'true'
> >identity i.e. hiding away beneath a hood?
> >Don't you think GL would have made TPM in such a way that there could be
no
> >question that Palpy is Sidious if it is supposed to be sooooo obvious?
> >
> >I believe there simply has to be more to this than meets the eyes of the
> >'Palpy IS Sidious' brigade.
> >
The Johnster
watching Anakins progress, I mean come on!!!!! And the whole close up at the
funeral thing!!!! Blimey, it's so bloody obvious!!!!!!
I'll make that my last post on the matter, 'cause I'm finally getting bored
with it.
Ursula <in...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:130819992330008530%in...@ozemail.com.au...
> In article <7p05ra$rc5$1...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Rooksby
> <Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older? Why
does he
> > bother to appear as if he is trying to generate questions over his
'true'
> > identity i.e. hiding away beneath a hood?
> > Don't you think GL would have made TPM in such a way that there could be
no
> > question that Palpy is Sidious if it is supposed to be sooooo obvious?
> >
> > I believe there simply has to be more to this than meets the eyes of the
> > 'Palpy IS Sidious' brigade.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > John Rooksby.
>
> Okay, I've got a question in the other direction and I apologise in
> advance if it's old news.
>
> But I wanted to ask - IF Palpy *isn't* Sidious - what happens to
> Sidious?
>
> The Emperor is Palpy [Emperor Palpatine (TM) got him right here on my
> Pizza Hut jigsaw puzzle next to his younger self Senator Palpatine
> (TM)] and also Vader's Master - where does Sidious fit in and what
> happens to him if they aren't the same person?
>
> And what ever happens will have to happen fairly quickly. Are we also
> then speculating that Palpatine becomes Sidious' new apprentice and
> then bumps him off in time to welcome young Anakin into the joys of the
> Dark Side?
>
sma...@my-deja.com
"John Rooksby" <Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> If Palpatine is Sidious, why does Sidious appear so much older?
Because that is his true nature.
> Why
does he
> bother to appear as if he is trying to generate questions over his
'true'
> identity i.e. hiding away beneath a hood?
Because he is still trying to consolidate his power and influence.
> Don't you think GL would have made TPM in such a way that there could
be no
> question that Palpy is Sidious if it is supposed to be sooooo obvious?
I don't know how much more obvious it could be. You do realize that
Sidious is on Coruscant in TPM, don't you?
> I believe there simply has to be more to this than meets the eyes of
the
> 'Palpy IS Sidious' brigade.
About the only thing that I would expect would be to reveal that
Palpatine is a clone construct of Sidious who's sole purpose is to get
into a position of power within the Republic so that Sidious can just
step in and take over.
--
"And no one shall really know where lieth those things with a sort of
Raffiere-work base that has an attachment. And the young shall not
remember where lieth those things left there by their fathers only the
night before...around 8 O'Clock."
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
sma...@my-deja.com
"John Rooksby" <Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> What is the purpose of spending all that time showing him rising into
power
> as Chancellor then?
>
> Because he is to become the Emperor. It is not a corollary of this
that
> Sidious is Palpatine!
???
> TPM and ROJ are the two bookends of the story. It makes
> sense to start with the same main villain you end up with. What's the
point
> of introducing a another character who just looks like the main
villain
I'm thinking because they are one and the same.
> Does he? Sidious looks like Palpatine? Perhaps you have convinced
yourself
> that the two characters look alike, because you know he is being
played by
> the same actor.
> If one didn't know this *esoteric* fact, you would think they were
> completely different - there is certainly no similarity in costume,
voice or
> nature, and only an arguable similarity in looks.
So he's not allowed to disguise himself?
> and attains the same position that the main villain eventually
attains? Why
> introduce such a pointless plot complication?
Have you ever considered the fact that they are either one and the same
or that Palpatine is a clone of Sidious that is just being used until
Sidious can take over the Republic?
> You are assuming that Sidious *is* the Emperor ["attains the same
> position..."]. This *must* be wrong because as such, he wouldn't need
to
> *fight* to win political advantages, as he does over Naboo; he would
already
> hold all the cards.
How would he hold all the cards already?
> Assuming that he isn't Palpatine, the reason for the Sidious character
would
> be as a reintroduction, into the Star Wars story at this time, of the
Sith,
> who had been 'extinct' for many years - remember, someone has to train
> Palpatine in the ways of the Dark side, and now that Maul is gone...
>
> He (and Maul) also allow GL to showcase the Jedis' powers, in a
conflict
> that is entirely separate from the (as yet secret) political agenda of
> Palpatine.
>
> >If memeory
> >> serves me correctly, we never see Sidious's face in TPM. It's all
> >> just chin shots.
> >>
> >Not true: we were able to see his nose, cheeks and brow as well as
chin.
> He
> >looked clearly older to me.
>
> Neither one of them are spring chickens. Sidious is almost always seen
as a
> hologram which strips off all the flesh color; of course, it won't
showcase
> his youth.
>
> Sorry, I don't buy this.
You don't buy that Sidious looks suspiciously like Emperor Palpatine in
ESB and ROTJ? Have you had your eyes checked lately?
> >>GL doesn't go right out and
> >> tell us that Palpatine is Sidious in TPM. Similarly, he doesn't go
> >> right out and tell us that Vader is Luke's father in ANH. Instead,
he
> >> gives vague hints & clues in both movies.
> >
> >He doesn't give any such 'vague clues and hints'! He doesn't give a
single
> >clue as to Vader's true identity in Star Wars, and to speculate such
a
> thing
> >would be similar to what you are doing about Palpy/Sidious, only with
less
> >evidence.
>
> And of course, anyone who did speculate that back in the late 70's
would
> have been proven correct.
There weren't enough clues in ANH for anyone to even consider
speculating that premise.
Yes, it does. If Luke had been lied to about his Father's exploits and
occupation his whole life and then is suddenly enlightened(at a time
when he is most vulnerable) it would certainly affect his choice-making
process. That's enough justification right there. And that's not even
touching on the whole destiny/fate/heritage issue.
You have offered nothing in your arguments that challenge that already-
known(and rather obvious) fact.
David Cardinal
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: U211 <unit...@spam.yahoo.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.fan.starwars
> Sent: 13 August 1999 06:29
> Subject: Re: If Palpy *is* Sidious...
>
>
> > On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 05:09:03 +0100, "John Rooksby"
> > <Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> >
>> If memeory
> > serves me correctly, we never see Sidious's face in TPM. It's all
> > just chin shots.
> >
> Not true: we were able to see his nose, cheeks and brow as well as chin.
He
> looked clearly older to me.
Sidious did look older than the Senator to me too. But he is wearing a hood
and it's really hard to get a look anyway because the hologram reception is
bad. The color is odd and the image flickers a lot.
> >
> > Face it, palpatine *is* sidious. The same actor plays Darth Sidious
> > and Senator Palpatine. This is also the same actor that played the
> > Emperor in ROTJ. Go connect the dots.
>
>
> Just because Ian McDiarmid played all the parts in question doesn't mean a
> flying fruit bat!
George Lucas has said that Senator Palpatine is the Emperor from ROTJ. But
I haven't seen/heard proof that Sidious is Palpatine yet.
> Why should GL pay another actor to play the part? It's
> perfectly logical he should play the senator, and as the Sidious role
merely
> requires someone to look like the Emperor, why not save some money and
have
> McDiarmid play that role as well.
It could also be a trick. Maybe GL is aware that some people will watch the
credits and spread rumors. Maybe Lucas wanted a red herring.
At first, I thought that Lucas was trying to hide the *existence* of Darth
Sidious. I thought the PM Sith Master was acting like the ROTJ emperor so
that the audience would *assume* that the he was the same person. The
surprise would be that the Sith Master is *NOT* the Emperor.
But the fans' consensus seems to be that the "surprise" will be that the
Sith Master IS the same person.
> And if you think that GL wouldn't
> penny-pinch like that, why didn't he spend money on digitally altering the
> face of the *non-S.L.Jackson' Mace Windu?
What?
Josie Overton
how else would he manage to get the Naboo situation bogged down in the
Senate. Let's face it, did you think Palpatine worked with the Nabbo's best
interests, or did it seem like a hidden agenda. I got it more the second
time I watched it...
Josiesith
(Mmm-beer)
David Cardinal <techn...@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:7pbb5n$om2$4...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
>
> John Rooksby <Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:7p1he7$loi$4...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: U211 <unit...@spam.yahoo.com>
> > Newsgroups: alt.fan.starwars
> > Sent: 13 August 1999 06:29
> > Subject: Re: If Palpy *is* Sidious...
> >
> >
> > > On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 05:09:03 +0100, "John Rooksby"
> > > <Jo...@rooksby.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> >> If memeory
> > > serves me correctly, we never see Sidious's face in TPM. It's all
> > > just chin shots.
> > >
> > Not true: we were able to see his nose, cheeks and brow as well as chin.
> He
> > looked clearly older to me.
>
> Sidious did look older than the Senator to me too. But he is wearing a
hood
> and it's really hard to get a look anyway because the hologram reception
is
> bad. The color is odd and the image flickers a lot.
>
> > >
> > > Face it, palpatine *is* sidious. The same actor plays Darth Sidious
> > > and Senator Palpatine. This is also the same actor that played the
> > > Emperor in ROTJ. Go connect the dots.
> >
> >
> > Just because Ian McDiarmid played all the parts in question doesn't mean
a
> > flying fruit bat!
>
> George Lucas has said that Senator Palpatine is the Emperor from ROTJ.
But
> I haven't seen/heard proof that Sidious is Palpatine yet.
>
> > Why should GL pay another actor to play the part? It's
> > perfectly logical he should play the senator, and as the Sidious role
> merely
> > requires someone to look like the Emperor, why not save some money and
> have
> > McDiarmid play that role as well.
>
> It could also be a trick. Maybe GL is aware that some people will watch
the
> credits and spread rumors. Maybe Lucas wanted a red herring.
>
> At first, I thought that Lucas was trying to hide the *existence* of Darth
> Sidious. I thought the PM Sith Master was acting like the ROTJ emperor
so
> that the audience would *assume* that the he was the same person. The
> surprise would be that the Sith Master is *NOT* the Emperor.
>
> But the fans' consensus seems to be that the "surprise" will be that the
> Sith Master IS the same person.
>
> > And if you think that GL wouldn't
> > penny-pinch like that, why didn't he spend money on digitally altering
the
> > face of the *non-S.L.Jackson' Mace Windu?
>
> What?
Zig-69
Darth Sidious is on Coruscant and has the Senate "bogged down with
procedures"
Palpatine is Senator for Naboo. On Coruscant.
Palpatine becomes Chancellor.
Sidious' apprentice, Darth Maul, is killed by OB1. Only one Sith remains.
Palpatine decides to "watch Anakin's career with great interest"
Chancellor Palpatine calls himself Emperor and destroys the Republic to
create the Empire.
Emperor Palpatine takes Anakin as his apprentice, and calls him Darth Vader.
Palpatine and Vader terminate all but 2 Jedi.
Palpatine displays mastery of the Dark Side of the Force when he tries to
kill Luke with his Death-bolts.
Now, watch the connections...
both Sidious and Palpatine are on Coruscant in TPM. (I know there are a LOT
of people on any one planet, but not everybody is thought to be someone else
as well...)
Always two [sith] there are... a Master and an Apprentice - Any other Sith
apart from Vader mentioned in the original trilogy? no? OK, who is Vader's
Master? Darth Sidious or the Emperor?
Vader calls the Emperor Master. Sith only follow Sith.
No doubts. Palpatine (Who we already know is the Emperor) IS definitely
Darth Sidious.
Lode-Run Xevious
sma...@my-deja.com escreveu na mensagem <7p9usa$o4t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>> >He doesn't give any such 'vague clues and hints'! He doesn't give a
>single
>> >clue as to Vader's true identity in Star Wars, and to speculate such
>a
>> thing
>> >would be similar to what you are doing about Palpy/Sidious, only with
>less
>> >evidence.
>>
>> And of course, anyone who did speculate that back in the late 70's
>would
>> have been proven correct.
>
>There weren't enough clues in ANH for anyone to even consider
>speculating that premise.
I don't know, but IIRC I saw an interview with GL (I think it's the one from
the VHS remastered release of ESB, pre-SE) where he is asked about the
'revelation' scene and he answered that he wanted people to discuss if Vader
was Luke's father or not after ANH, so they could find out in ESB. Or I may
be mistaken.
Anyway, if I had watched ANH only, I would have no clues about that... The
Palp/Sid connection is much more clear.
Lode-Run Xevious, Jedi Master.