The so called "Dark Side"
Lizard
dark side by setting a trap for the rebellion, killing all his friends
while he's watching through the window, and then making Luke angry
enough to strike at him and Darth Vader. Exactly how is this supposed
to turn him to a "dark side"? If he killed Darth Vader how would he
suddenly be "evil"? He's just killing him because he's the enemy. I
would expect him to be the same good person afterwards. So I've never
understood how he's supposed to suddently "turn evil" by doing these
things. Like he's supposed to turn to the emperor after killing Vader
and say "ok emperor I'll join you".
Opinicus
> while he's watching through the window, and then making
> Luke angry
> enough to strike at him and Darth Vader. Exactly how is
> this supposed
> to turn him to a "dark side"? If he killed Darth Vader how
> would he
> suddenly be "evil"? He's just killing him because he's the
> enemy. I
> would expect him to be the same good person afterwards. So
> I've never
> understood how he's supposed to suddently "turn evil" by
> doing these
> things.
By giving in to his rage and hate, Luke would be joining the
Dark Side.
--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://www.kanyak.com
Key-Bored
"Lizard" <liza...@somewhereIdontknowwhere.com> wrote in message
news:tue4l058svk0iskjc...@4ax.com...
It's kind of a slippery-slope thing. Once Luke gives into his anger and
hatred, the dark side of the force will fill him and they'll be no looking
back.
I like to think of Vader as a Mounds candy bar. Dark and hard on the
outside, but white and chewy on the inside.
"Guest"
Mike Ward
news:tue4l058svk0iskjc...@4ax.com:
I've never understood this either. I don't understand how Luke killing
Vader--an evil genocidal villain--in a fair fight would magicaly make Luke
consumed with hate.
But then there are a lot about ROTJ that don't make sense.
Mike
Andrew Murray
tells him the emotions of HATE, FEAR, AGGRESSION and ANGER lead to the dark
side.
The Emperor states "Take your father's place at my side and your journey towards
the dark side shall be complete".
Think of it as Jekyll and Hyde. a good guy and the bad guy all in one and the
dominant one reigns (in Vader's case the dark persona dominates).
"Lizard" <liza...@somewhereIdontknowwhere.com> wrote in message
news:tue4l058svk0iskjc...@4ax.com...
C'Pi
Come now, Mike. Luke wasn't suppose to kill Vader and then be consumed with
hate. He was suppose to become consumed with hate and then kill Vader.
--
C'Pi
"It's because of men like you that all must be destroyed."
Lizard
wrote:
>By giving in to his rage and hate, Luke would be joining the
>Dark Side.
I know this is supposed to be just part of the plot of the movie and
maybe not to be taken too seriously but I hardly think giving in to
your rage and hate when your fighting against your enemy will take you
to a "dark side", or make you evil. If Luke gave into his rage and
hate and killed Vader I don't think he would've then turned to the
emperor and said "hey how you doing my friend! Let's go out for a
drink! I like you know". He would've just turned around and still
hated the emperor and not joined any dark side. Didn't Luke hate and
kill many other people?
By the way, did Darth Vader know the emperor wanted Luke to kill
him and take his place? I can't imagine Vader agreeing to this. When
they start the lightsaber fight does Vader think that the fight will
turn Luke to the dark side, and Luke will stop in the middle and join?
Like "you know what, this does feel good, ok I'll join you."
"Guest"
"Andrew Murray" <SPAMadBUS...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:4152c2de$0$24402$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> Yoda explains the nature of the force, and the Dark Side of the Force.
Yoda
> tells him the emotions of HATE, FEAR, AGGRESSION and ANGER lead to the
dark
> side.
>
> The Emperor states "Take your father's place at my side and your journey
towards
> the dark side shall be complete".
>
> Think of it as Jekyll and Hyde. a good guy and the bad guy all in one and
the
> dominant one reigns (in Vader's case the dark persona dominates).
Since the Sith are Jedi's also, I wonder if the the Jedi like the so-called
western powers(NATO) are just concerned that their way of doing things and
their control will be lost? That is like the so-called west. Pretending to
be all good, but are the embodiment of evil.
The Lindbergh Baby
> By the way, did Darth Vader know the emperor wanted Luke to kill
> him and take his place? I can't imagine Vader agreeing to this.
Vader saw a job posting on a wall of the Death Star:
IMMEDIATE OPENING--NEW SITH DARK LORD.
QUALIFICATIONS: Must be younger than old Dark Lord. Lighter, more
supple. Deep voice preferred, but not required. Medical conditions
(asthma, heavy breathing) a plus. Must have own black cape and helmet.
Demanding but rewarding career overseeing star systems, blowing up
rebellious planets, strangling rival generals. Opportunity to travel.
NO PHONE CALLS PLEASE! Apply online at dark...@imperialrecruitment.gov.
NOTICE: The Empire is an EOE/Affirmative Action employer. Death Star
and other Imperial vehicles meet all access requirements under 1986
Americans with Disabilities Act.
John
--
To reply, remove "die.spammers" from address
Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven
Mike Ward
> Yoda explains the nature of the force, and the Dark Side of the Force.
> Yoda tells him the emotions of HATE, FEAR, AGGRESSION and ANGER lead
> to the dark side.
Which doesn't seem to mean that Jedi can't kill bad guys. Unless Obi-wan
just accidently sliced Maul in half at the end of TPM.
Mike
Brett McConnie
news:pHy4d.418035$OB3.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> I've never understood this either. I don't understand how Luke killing
> Vader--an evil genocidal villain--in a fair fight would magicaly make Luke
> consumed with hate.
Because he wouldn't be doing it as an act of justice but as an act of
hatred. It's not the act of killing Vader that would turn Luke to the dark
side, after all this is exactly what Yoda and Obi-Wan had been training the
lad for, it's the manner in which he kills him that matters. "Anger, fear,
aggression, the dark side of the Force are they." It's just a short hop from
killing in anger to wearing a dark suit and having difficulty breathing.
> But then there are a lot about ROTJ that don't make sense.
Such as?
--
"Escape is not his plan. I must face him alone."
Brett McConnie
> Which doesn't seem to mean that Jedi can't kill bad guys. Unless Obi-wan
> just accidently sliced Maul in half at the end of TPM.
The Jedi can kill as we have witnessed but they do so for the right reasons
and never out of anger or hatred.
ronin
ronin
no, they're not. different school, different code. Palpatine is a Sith.
was he ever a Jedi? no.
JAC
Mike Ward
news:JCO4d.2390$5O5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
> "Mike Ward" <m@d.w> wrote in message
> news:pHy4d.418035$OB3.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> I've never understood this either. I don't understand how Luke
>> killing Vader--an evil genocidal villain--in a fair fight would
>> magicaly make Luke consumed with hate.
>
> Because he wouldn't be doing it as an act of justice but as an act of
> hatred.
I don't see this distinction being made in the movie. Luke does not seem
to be trying to avoid killing Vader out of hate. He seems to be trying to
avoid killing Vader altogether.
I'll grant you that Luke gave into hate when he lashed out at Vader when
Vader threatened Leia. But how was Luke giving into hate when he tried to
strike the Emperor down while he say on his throne. That seemed like a
pretty good idea to me.
> It's not the act of killing Vader that would turn Luke to the
> dark side, after all this is exactly what Yoda and Obi-Wan had been
> training the lad for,
Was it?
This is another problem I have with ROTJ. In ESB Yoda doesn't even want to
train Luke. Before the film's over Luke has ended his training early.
Then when he comes back in ROTJ Yoda sends him off to confront Vader.
Yoda just seems to be making decisions at random. No thought goes into
them and there certainly doesn't seem to be a plan.
> it's the manner in which he kills him that
> matters. "Anger, fear, aggression, the dark side of the Force are
> they." It's just a short hop from killing in anger to wearing a dark
> suit and having difficulty breathing.
>
>> But then there are a lot about ROTJ that don't make sense.
>
> Such as?
Why it's wrong for Luke to try to kill Vader.
Why does Yoda send Luke to confront Vader even though he insisted that he
was not ready to confront Vader at the end of ESB?
Why are the rebels stupid enough to think that no one will find it odd if
they show up at an extremely important Imperial military base with an
unsceduled shipment of supplies and then land there ship in the woods
instead? Do the rebels think that the Imperial aren't going to get
suspiscious when they go out to find what happened to the shuttle and find
it parked in the woods, completely empty, with hundred of footprints
leading off into the forest?
Along the same lines. Did the rebels not realize that if they killed every
partolman they came across that someone was going to notice when they
didn't come back from patrol? In the end it didn't matter since the
Emperor knew about there plan from the beginning, but the rebels had to be
complete morons to think that they were going to surprise anyone.
Why in the world are Han and Lando made Generals? This is especially odd
for Lando who just shows up and becomes General immediately. Where the
Rebels trying to fill a quota?
The plan to rescue Han doesn't make any sense to me. If the back-up plan
was to simply kill everyone with a light-sabre why go to the palace unarmed
and hope that R2 has a chance to pass your light-sabre to you before you
get killed? Why not just show up with your light-sabre and kill everyone
in the first place?
And personally I find Vader's redemption completely unconvincing.
Mike
"Guest"
"ronin" <kit...@wakizashi-rum.net> wrote in message
news:jNO4d.708$Ok.670@okepread04...
They are also called dark jedi. It's the same thing, just one supposedly
good and the other bad. Remeber, they said Maul was "trained in the jedi
arts.'
>
> JAC
>
>
Masterplan
Mike Ward wrote:
> "Brett McConnie" <blm...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in
> news:JCO4d.2390$5O5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
>
> > "Mike Ward" <m@d.w> wrote in message
> > news:pHy4d.418035$OB3.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >> I've never understood this either. I don't understand how Luke
> >> killing Vader--an evil genocidal villain--in a fair fight would
> >> magicaly make Luke consumed with hate.
> >
> > Because he wouldn't be doing it as an act of justice but as an act
of
> > hatred.
>
> I don't see this distinction being made in the movie. Luke does not
seem
> to be trying to avoid killing Vader out of hate. He seems to be
trying to
> avoid killing Vader altogether.
>
> I'll grant you that Luke gave into hate when he lashed out at Vader
when
> Vader threatened Leia. But how was Luke giving into hate when he
tried to
> strike the Emperor down while he say on his throne. That seemed like
a
> pretty good idea to me.
In my mind it was more about the power of the dark side. The fear,
anger, and hate are all just the paths to the dark side power.
Palpatine was leading Luke by the nose to show him what incredible
power he could have, and how easy it comes, by pushing him into fear,
anger, and hate. Yoda directly correlates "anger fear aggression" to
the "dark path" and adds that there's no returning from that. That's
what the Emperor's counting on.
>
> > It's not the act of killing Vader that would turn Luke to the
> > dark side, after all this is exactly what Yoda and Obi-Wan had been
> > training the lad for,
>
> Was it?
If we tie it back into TPM, AOTC, and ROTS it makes perfect sense that
it was *exactly* what Obi and Yoda wanted. Wouldn't it make sense for
Obi and Yoda to now believe that this "chosen one", the one who will
bring balance back to the force, is the root of the problem? The
chosen one went bad, and not only didn't bring the force back into
balance, but he tipped the scales WAY towards the Dark Side. Perhaps
Vader's son or daughter could right it.
>
> This is another problem I have with ROTJ. In ESB Yoda doesn't even
want to
> train Luke. Before the film's over Luke has ended his training
early.
Yoda knew of "another". I'm sure Obi-Wan did too, but seems he needed
to be reminded. I look at it as Yoda testing Luke's patience. He's
making sure Luke's the one, and not Leia. It's obvious he's already
too old to begin the training. The PT established that with young
Anakin. Yoda eventually caves, and trains Luke only to have him run
off early to save his "attachments".
The scene ends with Yoda flipping Obi-Wan the bird and saying told you
so, but there is another.
> Then when he comes back in ROTJ Yoda sends him off to confront Vader.
It's a leap for sure, but who's left to train Luke? Luke seems to have
done a fairly good job of finishing his own training. By this point he
had built his own lightsaber, fought a sith lord and survived, and
learned some new force powers like the force choke. The journal in
Obi-Wan's hut must have had some pretty good instructions.
>
> Yoda just seems to be making decisions at random. No thought goes
into
> them and there certainly doesn't seem to be a plan.
I wonder in EPIII, who's plan it is to seperate the twins and let them
grow up without force training. Maybe it's Obi-Wan's plan and Yoda
really doesn't like it? Guess we'll see.
>
> > it's the manner in which he kills him that
> > matters. "Anger, fear, aggression, the dark side of the Force are
> > they." It's just a short hop from killing in anger to wearing a
dark
> > suit and having difficulty breathing.
> >
> >> But then there are a lot about ROTJ that don't make sense.
> >
> > Such as?
>
> Why it's wrong for Luke to try to kill Vader.
Turns out that Obi-Wan and Yoda were wrong. It *is* wrong to kill
Vader because Luke would've tasted too much of the Dark Side power.
Obi-Wan and Yoda's plan was terribly flawed. No wonder the Jedi were
near extinct.
You can take the boy out of the Jedi Temple, but you can't take the
Jedi Temple out of the boy.
>
> Why does Yoda send Luke to confront Vader even though he insisted
that he
> was not ready to confront Vader at the end of ESB?
He's now as trained up as possible, and Vader's already played his "I
am your Father" card and turned up bust.
>
> Why are the rebels stupid enough to think that no one will find it
odd if
> they show up at an extremely important Imperial military base with an
> unsceduled shipment of supplies and then land there ship in the woods
> instead? Do the rebels think that the Imperial aren't going to get
> suspiscious when they go out to find what happened to the shuttle and
find
> it parked in the woods, completely empty, with hundred of footprints
> leading off into the forest?
>
I think it was pretty stupid, but they had to take a shot. They did
say they were a "parts and technical crew", so I don't know how
scheduled that would be. Obviously Piett was expecting a parts and
technical crew.
> Along the same lines. Did the rebels not realize that if they killed
every
> partolman they came across that someone was going to notice when they
> didn't come back from patrol? In the end it didn't matter since the
> Emperor knew about there plan from the beginning, but the rebels had
to be
> complete morons to think that they were going to surprise anyone.
There was no choice. They had to take chances. When you compare this
mission to their plan to destroy the first Death Star, this plan isn't
any more cracked than that one. I think if the Ewoks haddn't captured
them, the chances of getting captured early on in this mission would've
been far greater.
>
> Why in the world are Han and Lando made Generals?
Han's easy. He's a natural leader and a great pilot. Lando's
charismatic.
>This is especially odd
> for Lando who just shows up and becomes General immediately. Where
the
> Rebels trying to fill a quota?
Yeah, I gotta try harder to figure out how Lando fits. But I do think
making Han a leader is a no-brainer.
>
> The plan to rescue Han doesn't make any sense to me. If the back-up
plan
> was to simply kill everyone with a light-sabre why go to the palace
unarmed
> and hope that R2 has a chance to pass your light-sabre to you before
you
> get killed? Why not just show up with your light-sabre and kill
everyone
> in the first place?
I think Luke really believed that he could walk in there, Jedi mind
trick Jabba, and walk out with everyone. Luke is never unarmed as
evidenced by his using the force to grab that gun. He didn't count on
the Rancor pit.
>
> And personally I find Vader's redemption completely unconvincing.
Can't argue with that one.
Well, there's my devil's advocate arguments. Do with them what you
will :)
>
> Mike
Mike Ward
news:1096051132.2...@k26g2000oda.googlegroups.com:
>
> Well, there's my devil's advocate arguments. Do with them what you
> will :)
>
All and all not too bad. You still didn't convince me but making up fan
explinations for inconsistancies is a reasonable enough way to pass the
time.
Oh and I just remembered that there is a perfectly valid explination for
making Lando a general: his little maneuver at the Battle of Tanaab.
<rolls eys>
In can still enjoy ROTJ so long as I turn my brain off first.
It's ATOC that I really found unspeakablly bad.
(It IS better than _Batman and Robin_ though. :) )
Mike
Brett McConnie
>> Because he wouldn't be doing it as an act of justice but as an act of
>> hatred.
>
> I don't see this distinction being made in the movie. Luke does not seem
> to be trying to avoid killing Vader out of hate. He seems to be trying to
> avoid killing Vader altogether.
The distinction's quite clear. Luke doesn't want to kill Vader because he's
his father. Note how much he wanted to kill Vader in ESB but doesn't want to
fight him at all in ROTJ until he makes him angry by threatening Leia.
> I'll grant you that Luke gave into hate when he lashed out at Vader when
> Vader threatened Leia. But how was Luke giving into hate when he tried to
> strike the Emperor down while he say on his throne. That seemed like a
> pretty good idea to me.
Palpatine was taunting Luke and making him angry. Luke could have struck at
Palpatine anytime had he wanted to. Upon meeting the Emperor he could well
have made some showy attempt at arresting the man and carting him off to
Rebel justice but instead he says "soon I'll be dead and you with me." He
wasn't threatening him just stating the facts as he saw them. Luke only
takes up his weapon and strikes the Emperor out of anger. Such subtleties
mean nothing to you and me in real life but in the ficitonal life of a Jedi
they are literally the difference between good and evil.
>> It's not the act of killing Vader that would turn Luke to the
>> dark side, after all this is exactly what Yoda and Obi-Wan had been
>> training the lad for,
>
> Was it?
Yes.
> This is another problem I have with ROTJ. In ESB Yoda doesn't even want
> to
> train Luke. Before the film's over Luke has ended his training early.
> Then when he comes back in ROTJ Yoda sends him off to confront Vader.
>
> Yoda just seems to be making decisions at random. No thought goes into
> them and there certainly doesn't seem to be a plan.
Yoda was always going to train Luke, there was never any doubt of that. "Too
old to begin the training" he may have been but who else was going to carry
the Jedi legacy? Luke was it. He was the reason Obi-Wan had lived a hermit's
life on Tatooine and the reason Yoda was waiting in a swamp on Dagobah.
Luke's training was non-traditional Jedi it was geared to a confrontation
with Vader and the Emperor. Neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan believed there was any
hope of turning Vader back to the good side yet they both wanted Luke to
confront the Sith. They wanted him to defeat them in the only way possible,
by killing them. Luke nearly messed things up by leaving early but he
confronted Vader and survived. There was nothing else to teach him when he
returned, except maybe how to repel Force lightning.
> Why it's wrong for Luke to try to kill Vader.
It's not. From the Jedi perspective it's wrong for him to kill him out of
anger and from Luke's perspective it's wrong to kill him because he's his
father.
> Why does Yoda send Luke to confront Vader even though he insisted that he
> was not ready to confront Vader at the end of ESB?
AT the end of ESB he wasn't ready and survived mostly because Vader didn't
want to kill him by the end of ROTJ a year had passed and Luke had
progressed far with his Jedi abilities as was evident from his Tatooine
adventure. He was now as ready as he could be furthermore Yoda couldn't
physically teach him anything since he was about to pass away.
> Why are the rebels stupid enough to think that no one will find it odd if
> they show up at an extremely important Imperial military base with an
> unsceduled shipment of supplies and then land there ship in the woods
> instead? Do the rebels think that the Imperial aren't going to get
> suspiscious when they go out to find what happened to the shuttle and find
> it parked in the woods, completely empty, with hundred of footprints
> leading off into the forest?
Bureaucracy. Nobody's going to miss those supplies for a little while and
when they do it will be too late. It wasn't supposed to take as long as it
did to destroy the shield bunker.
> Along the same lines. Did the rebels not realize that if they killed
> every
> partolman they came across that someone was going to notice when they
> didn't come back from patrol? In the end it didn't matter since the
> Emperor knew about there plan from the beginning, but the rebels had to be
> complete morons to think that they were going to surprise anyone.
Desperate times my friend. They knew it was a gamble from the start but it
was their best chance of success. Once on Endor they were supposed to meet
no resistance and blow up the shield generator post-haste but even the best
laid plans don't always work as they should.
> Why in the world are Han and Lando made Generals? This is especially odd
> for Lando who just shows up and becomes General immediately. Where the
> Rebels trying to fill a quota?
The Rebels are not as well organized as they appear. They are on the run
form the authorities. Their equipment is outdated and barely functional.
Their ranks are made up of defectors, criminals and people with a minimum of
military experience. Anybody who has some practical experience in battle is
automatically promoted to the highest ranks. Han Solo volunteered to lead
the raid on Endor and since he's had some success with the Rebels before his
offer was accepted and he was given a rank since he could hardly lead troops
as a civilian. The same goes for Lando who apparently had some success at
the Battle of Tanaab. Muchthe same kind of thing happened in the Confederacy
during the US Civil War.
> The plan to rescue Han doesn't make any sense to me. If the back-up plan
> was to simply kill everyone with a light-sabre why go to the palace
> unarmed
> and hope that R2 has a chance to pass your light-sabre to you before you
> get killed? Why not just show up with your light-sabre and kill everyone
> in the first place?
Luke foresaw everything that happened. It was a chess game. He moved his
pieces in one at a time and knew how effective they woiuld be. He then came
in and attempted to release Solo peacefully. Jabba's confidence in himself
grew but he made the mistake of underestimating the farmboy's powers.
Everything went according to plan.
Mike Ward
> "Mike Ward" <m@d.w> wrote in message
> news:W4V4d.424196$OB3.243508@bgtnsc05-
>>> Because he wouldn't be doing it as an act of justice but as an act
>>> of hatred.
>>
>> I don't see this distinction being made in the movie. Luke does not
>> seem to be trying to avoid killing Vader out of hate. He seems to be
>> trying to avoid killing Vader altogether.
>
> The distinction's quite clear. Luke doesn't want to kill Vader because
> he's his father.
This is a seperate issue. Yes, Luke doesn't want to kill his own father.
But I see no reason why his doing so would be a step down the dark path.
> Note how much he wanted to kill Vader in ESB but
> doesn't want to fight him at all in ROTJ until he makes him angry by
> threatening Leia.
>
>> I'll grant you that Luke gave into hate when he lashed out at Vader
>> when Vader threatened Leia. But how was Luke giving into hate when
>> he tried to strike the Emperor down while he say on his throne. That
>> seemed like a pretty good idea to me.
>
> Palpatine was taunting Luke and making him angry. Luke could have
> struck at Palpatine anytime had he wanted to. Upon meeting the Emperor
> he could well have made some showy attempt at arresting the man and
> carting him off to Rebel justice but instead he says "soon I'll be
> dead and you with me." He wasn't threatening him just stating the
> facts as he saw them. Luke only takes up his weapon and strikes the
> Emperor out of anger.
I understand why luke tried to strike down the Emperor when he was angry.
But why didn't Luke try to do it BEFORE he got angry?
The answer seems to be that in the film merely attacking the Emperor is a
step toward the dark side, but this is not consistant with the other films.
Mike
Smaug69
If one learns the skills of the Jedi then one is a Jedi no matter if
one remains good or turns evil.
Smaug69
Masterplan
Mike Ward wrote:
> "Masterplan" <bernie...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:1096051132.2...@k26g2000oda.googlegroups.com:
>
> >
> > Well, there's my devil's advocate arguments. Do with them what you
> > will :)
> >
>
> All and all not too bad. You still didn't convince me but making up
fan
> explinations for inconsistancies is a reasonable enough way to pass
the
> time.
Thanks! And, hey, It works for me ! LOL!
>
> Oh and I just remembered that there is a perfectly valid explination
for
> making Lando a general: his little maneuver at the Battle of Tanaab.
> <rolls eys>
>
> In can still enjoy ROTJ so long as I turn my brain off first.
>
> It's ATOC that I really found unspeakablly bad.
>
> (It IS better than _Batman and Robin_ though. :) )
24 hours a day of Lifetime television is better than B&R ! This coming
from one of the biggest Batman fans you'd ever want to meet.
>
> Mike
ronin
"Masterplan" <bernie...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snippage>
>> This is another problem I have with ROTJ. In ESB Yoda doesn't even
> want to
>> train Luke. Before the film's over Luke has ended his training
> early.
>
> Yoda knew of "another". I'm sure Obi-Wan did too, but seems he needed
> to be reminded.
i doubt it. just the look of surprise on his face when Yoda tells him.
it's not "oh yeah".
<snippage>
>
> I wonder in EPIII, who's plan it is to seperate the twins and let them
> grow up without force training. Maybe it's Obi-Wan's plan and Yoda
> really doesn't like it? Guess we'll see.
scenario:
"The Emperor knew, as did I, that if Anakin had any offspring, they would be
a threat to him."
in epIII, Padmé is pregnant. not obviously so, because Palpatine doesn't
know about it. it's possible (i say probable) that Anakin doesn't know,
either, since he confides in Palpatine regularly, and has since epI. when
it becomes obvious that Anakin is Sith, Yoda and Obi-Wan take Padmé to
Dagobah to have her child. Luke is born first, and Obi-Wan takes him into
hiding on Tatooine with his uncle, leaving Padmé with Yoda to handle her
witness relocation. but she's not done with labour yet, surprise surprise.
Leia is born after Obi-Wan leaves with Luke, and Yoda hides them with Bail
Organa on Alderaan. (Yoda remains on Dagobah to hide in the shadow of the
Dark Side tree.) Padmé doesn't necessarily die by the end of epIII, but
it's possible.
this would explain:
1) Obi-Wan's ignorance of Leia's relation to Luke.
2) Obi-Wan's lack of reaction when he first gets the "Help me, Obi-Wan
Kenobi" message in epIV.
3) Why it takes so long for both the Emperor and Vader to realize that he
has a son, and who he is.
4) Why it takes picking the thoughts out of Luke's head to learn of the
existence of yet anOTHER offspring, heretofore unknown, even after learning
of Luke.
5) Why Leia remembers her mother and Luke doesn't.
<snippage>
>>
>> Why in the world are Han and Lando made Generals?
>
> Han's easy. He's a natural leader and a great pilot. Lando's
> charismatic.
Lando's part in the Battle of Tanaab, which may or may not have been
actually him. read "Tag and Bink Are Dead", Dark Horse Comics. 2-issue
tie-ins to all three movies. very funny, if not actually meant to be what
happened.
JAC
ronin
>
> "ronin" <kit...@wakizashi-rum.net> wrote in message
> news:jNO4d.708$Ok.670@okepread04...
>> ""Guest"" <n0...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Since the Sith are Jedi's also,
>>
>> no, they're not. different school, different code. Palpatine is a Sith.
>> was he ever a Jedi? no.
>
> They are also called dark jedi.
not in the movies. actually, not anywhere. even in the EU where Sith are
mentioned, they're never referred to as Jedi unless they did, in fact, use
to be Jedi. Dark Jedi aren't necessarily Sith. any Jedi can use his powers
for evil. but not all of those have been trained... forgive me... at the
Sith school.
> It's the same thing, just one supposedly
> good and the other bad.
according to who/what, exactly?
> Remeber, they said Maul was "trained in the jedi arts.'
Qui-Gon did say that, yes. but not after witnessing Maul use the Force. no,
after experiencing what, a lightsaber duel in the middle of the desert?
lightsabers are the weapon of a Jedi, and have been for a thousand years.
why would he think any different? besides, he says it just after getting
into the ship.
Qui-Gon had no reason to believe the Sith still existed. in fact, it was
taken for granted that they were all extinct. it was only after the flight
home with lots of time to think it over that he suggested it to the Council
(who, i might add, were skeptical, to put it mildly).
besides, being trained in... say... Impressionist painting doesn't make one
an Impressionist painter. being trained in plumbing doesn't make one a
plumber. just as being trained in the "Jedi" arts doesn't make one a Jedi.
JAC
ronin
>> > Since the Sith are Jedi's also,
>>
>> no, they're not. different school, different code. Palpatine is a Sith.
>> was he ever a Jedi? no.
>
> If one learns the skills of the Jedi then one is a Jedi no matter if
> one remains good or turns evil.
that's horseshit.
what Jedi have you seen that uses Force Lightning? no? ok, then, what
other "Jedi skills" does Palpatine possess?
JAC
C'Pi
He can pat his head and rub his belly at the same time.
Smaug69
> "Smaug69" <sma...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Since the Sith are Jedi's also,
> >>
> >> no, they're not. different school, different code. Palpatine is a Sith.
> >> was he ever a Jedi? no.
> >
> > If one learns the skills of the Jedi then one is a Jedi no matter if
> > one remains good or turns evil.
>
> that's horseshit.
In your opinion.
> what Jedi have you seen that uses Force Lightning? no? ok, then, what
> other "Jedi skills" does Palpatine possess?
We have onscreen canon that Maul was versed in the Jedi arts. Since he
is a Sith Lord then we have to assume that all Sith Lords have Jedi
skills. That means they are Jedi.
Smaug69
C'Pi
Given your disdain for the PT it can be forgiven that you will obviously
will lack some knowledge about the movies since you've probably only seen
them once. If even that. So when Mace says that Dooku was ONCE a Jedi it
shows that there is more involved to being a Jedi than simply having "Jedi
skills". Dooku had Jedi skills, but he was no longer a Jedi. Maul may have
possessed some of the same skills as a Jedi, but he was not a Jedi.
Masterplan
ronin wrote:
> "Masterplan" <bernie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snippage>
>
> >> This is another problem I have with ROTJ. In ESB Yoda doesn't
even
> > want to
> >> train Luke. Before the film's over Luke has ended his training
> > early.
> >
> > Yoda knew of "another". I'm sure Obi-Wan did too, but seems he
needed
> > to be reminded.
>
> i doubt it. just the look of surprise on his face when Yoda tells
him.
> it's not "oh yeah".
I'm going to watch it again today, but I don't remember it being that
much of a eyebrow raiser to Obi-Wan.
>
> <snippage>
> >
> > I wonder in EPIII, who's plan it is to seperate the twins and let
them
> > grow up without force training. Maybe it's Obi-Wan's plan and Yoda
> > really doesn't like it? Guess we'll see.
>
> scenario:
> "The Emperor knew, as did I, that if Anakin had any offspring, they
would be
> a threat to him."
>
> in epIII, Padmé is pregnant. not obviously so, because Palpatine
doesn't
> know about it. it's possible (i say probable) that Anakin doesn't
know,
> either, since he confides in Palpatine regularly, and has since epI.
I disagree. I think he knows.
>when
> it becomes obvious that Anakin is Sith, Yoda and Obi-Wan take Padmé
to
> Dagobah to have her child. Luke is born first, and Obi-Wan takes him
into
> hiding on Tatooine with his uncle, leaving Padmé with Yoda to handle
her
> witness relocation.
I'm no doctor, but all of the twins I know of were born minutes apart.
You're leaving an awful lot of time inbetween births for Obi-Wan to
wisk away Luke before Leia comes out.
>but she's not done with labour yet, surprise surprise.
> Leia is born after Obi-Wan leaves with Luke, and Yoda hides them with
Bail
> Organa on Alderaan. (Yoda remains on Dagobah to hide in the shadow
of the
> Dark Side tree.) Padmé doesn't necessarily die by the end of epIII,
but
> it's possible.
Probable.
>
> this would explain:
> 1) Obi-Wan's ignorance of Leia's relation to Luke.
I don't remember Obi-Wan, Luke, and Leia ever being together at the
same time in ANH.
> 2) Obi-Wan's lack of reaction when he first gets the "Help me,
Obi-Wan
> Kenobi" message in epIV.
I'll pay special attention to that as well when I watch them today, but
I don't remember anything that drastic.
> 3) Why it takes so long for both the Emperor and Vader to realize
that he
> has a son, and who he is.
I'm hedging my bet that the Emperor never knew, and Anakin presums his
child dead.
> 4) Why it takes picking the thoughts out of Luke's head to learn of
the
> existence of yet anOTHER offspring, heretofore unknown, even after
learning
> of Luke.
He obviously didn't know she was carrying twins, and he certainly
wasn't there when they were born.
> 5) Why Leia remembers her mother and Luke doesn't.
We'll see about that one. GL has alot of 'splainin to do on that one.
T'bone once said that all they need to do is have a eye contact shot
between baby Leia and Padme, just after birth to explain the "feelings"
Leia remembers.
I don't remember anything about my life from about 2 years old and
back, but I'm not strong in the force :)
It's a cop out, but it could go down that way.
>
> <snippage>
> >>
> >> Why in the world are Han and Lando made Generals?
> >
> > Han's easy. He's a natural leader and a great pilot. Lando's
> > charismatic.
>
> Lando's part in the Battle of Tanaab, which may or may not have been
> actually him. read "Tag and Bink Are Dead", Dark Horse Comics.
2-issue
> tie-ins to all three movies. very funny, if not actually meant to be
what
> happened.
Didn't ROTJ happen before Dark Horse comics?
And besides, the EU is just people getting paid to tie up the loose
ends and make excuses for things that don't make sense. Just as I've
tried to do, but I'm not getting published :)
I admit I'm posting this without doing the proper research, but it's
how I feel about it right now. I'll update when I have the time.
>
> JAC
"Guest"
"C'Pi" <as...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2rlfusF...@uni-berlin.de...
Anyone who think that the sith are not jedi are just nerds who think that
they know it all and hate to be wrong. They want to change the whole shit
around just because they cannot stand their nerd selves not being right in
their own way.
Oh yeah, how can any of forget that Yoda used lightening?
C'Pi
Do you actually have any evidence to contradict what Mace said? Why was he
mistaken on what a Jedi is?
> Oh yeah, how can any of forget that Yoda used lightening?
So that must mean Yoda is a Sith, huh? I mean if all it takes is yielding a
certain kind of power to classify what makes a Jedi then you might as well
say the same thing for the Sith. All Jedi must be Sith. There's as much
evidence for that as there is for all Sith being Jedi.
Masterplan
What movie did you watch? All I saw was Yoda redirecting Dooku's
lightning, not creating his own.
Steve Conrad
"Masterplan" <bernie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> We have onscreen canon that Maul was versed in the Jedi arts.
> Since
> > >>> he is a Sith Lord then we have to assume that all Sith Lords have
> > >>> Jedi skills. That means they are Jedi.
> > >>
> > >> Given your disdain for the PT it can be forgiven that you will
> > >> obviously will lack some knowledge about the movies since you've
> > >> probably only seen them once. If even that. So when Mace says
> that
> > >> Dooku was ONCE a Jedi it shows that there is more involved to
> being
> > >> a Jedi than simply having "Jedi skills". Dooku had Jedi skills,
> but
> > >> he was no longer a Jedi. Maul may have possessed some of the same
> > >> skills as a Jedi, but he was not a
> > >
> > > Anyone who think that the sith are not jedi are just nerds who
> think
> > > that they know it all and hate to be wrong. They want to change
> the
> > > whole shit around just because they cannot stand their nerd selves
> > > not being right in their own way.
> >
> > Do you actually have any evidence to contradict what Mace said? Why
> was he
> > mistaken on what a Jedi is?
> >
-> From what I have read there are 4 classes of people who can use the
Force (well, who understand it to some deghree).
1) Jedi
2) Fallen Jedi/Dark Jedi
3) The Sith
4) The Witches of Dathomir
You can kind of toss in the people of Ossus who the descendents of the
Jedi who were there when it was attacked by the Sith and nearly destroyed.
> > > Oh yeah, how can any of forget that Yoda used lightening?
>
> What movie did you watch? All I saw was Yoda redirecting Dooku's
> lightning, not creating his own.
>
> >
> > So that must mean Yoda is a Sith, huh? I mean if all it takes is
> yielding a
> > certain kind of power to classify what makes a Jedi then you might as
> well
> > say the same thing for the Sith. All Jedi must be Sith. There's as
> much
> > evidence for that as there is for all Sith being Jedi.
-> Force Lightning is a perversion of the Force and as such Jedi do NOT
use it. Only those tapping into the Dark Side of the Force use it.
Steve
--
It is no secret (nor should it come as any surprise) that humankind's most noble impulses often surface during the most tyring of times, that human spirit rises to the challenge when faced with adversity, that human strength is born from human failings...Is it any wonder, then, that the SDF-1 crew became a tighter family after the fortress had been exiled than it had been before?
From the log of Captain (later Admiral) Henry Gloval
Brett McConnie
>> Yoda knew of "another". I'm sure Obi-Wan did too, but seems he needed
>> to be reminded.
>
> i doubt it. just the look of surprise on his face when Yoda tells him.
> it's not "oh yeah".
You don't even see Obi-Wan's face when Yoda gives his line. Obi-Wan knew, he
didn't need reminding, he just didn't consider Leia a viable alternative.
When he says "That boy is our last hope" he literally means it.
Brett McConnie
news:5fe774aa.04092...@posting.google.com...
> We have onscreen canon that Maul was versed in the Jedi arts. Since he
> is a Sith Lord then we have to assume that all Sith Lords have Jedi
> skills. That means they are Jedi.
So if I carry two bricks around a construction site I'm suddenly a
bricklayer? The Sith may possess the skills of a Jedi but they are not Jedi!
They are Sith Lords and the distinction between them is very clear across
all six movies.
ronin
<snippage>
>> scenario:
>> "The Emperor knew, as did I, that if Anakin had any offspring, they
would be
>> a threat to him."
>>
>> in epIII, Padmé is pregnant. not obviously so, because Palpatine
doesn't
>> know about it. it's possible (i say probable) that Anakin doesn't
know,
>> either, since he confides in Palpatine regularly, and has since epI.
> I disagree. I think he knows.
if he knows about one, he'd almost HAVE to know about both. twins
pregnancies gain more weight faster than single pregnancies. meaning she'd
show a HELL of a lot faster. not to mention the major increase in her bust
size. but they were trying to hide her pregnancy because they didn't want
Palpatine to know, and even concealment and coverage will only last for the
first two or three months, depending on how MUCH weight she gains. anything
past that, and EVERYONE would know not only that she's pregnant, but that
she's having twins.
by Obi-Wan's words, it's fairly obvious that they knew by then that Anakin
was under Palpatine's wing. if Anakin knew she was pregnant, so did
Palpatine. so if Padmé dies, in EpIII, she would have already been in
hiding for at least six or seven months by that time. and she will not have
been killed by Anakin, since she was hiding from him as well.
>>when
>> it becomes obvious that Anakin is Sith, Yoda and Obi-Wan take Padmé
to
>> Dagobah to have her child. Luke is born first, and Obi-Wan takes him
into
>> hiding on Tatooine with his uncle, leaving Padmé with Yoda to handle
her
>> witness relocation.
> I'm no doctor, but all of the twins I know of were born minutes apart.
> You're leaving an awful lot of time inbetween births for Obi-Wan to
> wisk away Luke before Leia comes out.
no, it just got...written that way. i wasn't implying that Obi-Wan arrived
on Tatooine before Leia was born. but if Obi-Wan's in a hurry, he'd see the
child born is a boy, and leave with him. but now that i think about it,
he'd know about the twins thing anyway. maybe she's born not breathing or
something, and he thinks she dies.
anyway, point is that they were born in hiding with a living mother.
probably on Dagobah.
<snippage>
> this would explain:
> 1) Obi-Wan's ignorance of Leia's relation to Luke.
I don't remember Obi-Wan, Luke, and Leia ever being together at the
same time in ANH.
talking about ESB: "That boy is our only hope." "No, there is...another."
if Obi-Wan knew, Yoda wouldn't have said it that way. Probably would've
said something like "Forget, do you? There is another." this would both
foreshadow the revelation about Luke's sister and still conceal her identity
from viewers while at the same time clueing those same viewers in to a
deeper plot backstory between Obi-Wan and Yoda about the twins' birth.
<snippage>
>> 4) Why it takes picking the thoughts out of Luke's head to learn of
the
>> existence of yet anOTHER offspring, heretofore unknown, even after
learning
>> of Luke.
> He obviously didn't know she was carrying twins, and he certainly
> wasn't there when they were born.
like i said, if Anakin didn't know she was carrying twins, Padmé was already
gone. she and Obi-Wan knew that he would be confiding in Palpatine, so she
probably didn't tell him, probably went straight to Obi-Wan and the Jedi
Council to ask what to do.
considering that Anakin can probably pick the thoughts out of her head
without trying, he may find out as soon as Padmé finds out, so her not
telling him probably becomes a moot point. meaning she would have gone to
the Jedi Council immediately, then straight into hiding.
<mode=speculation>
come to think of it, if she does that, Anakin would ask where she is, and
the Jedi would refuse to tell him...giving him fuel to hate them. hrm.
Palpatine could easily convince him that some kind of foul play is going on
between her and Obi-Wan, then.
</mode>
JAC
ronin
<snippage: bigheaded bigot rant>
> Oh yeah, how can any of forget that Yoda used lightening?
he... didn't. he repeled it. and then he absorbed it. he didn't shoot it.
moron.
JAC
ronin
>
> -> From what I have read there are 4 classes of people who can use the
> Force (well, who understand it to some deghree).
>
> 1) Jedi
> 2) Fallen Jedi/Dark Jedi
> 3) The Sith
> 4) The Witches of Dathomir
>
> You can kind of toss in the people of Ossus who the descendents of the
> Jedi who were there when it was attacked by the Sith and nearly destroyed.
add Korun to that. that's Mace's race. Mace is the only one actually
trained to be Jedi. (read Shatterpoint. very nice, VERY cool. Mace kicks
ass.)
JAC
"Guest"
Who said that Yoda was a Sith? I was actually responding (in a lazy way) to
another question about Sith powers and Jedi knowing them.
It is written(Starwars.com) that the Sith are Jedi who think differently
from other Jedi. They are evil. Why do you think that they have the same
powers and carry lightsabers?
"Guest"
You are correct sir. I stand corrected. You see, I can admit errors. Now
if others can do the same...
>
> JAC
>
>
"Guest"
"Brett McConnie" <blm...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:PQn5d.4428$5O5....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Is it clear? In ANH, a Death Star General said that "your devotion to that
ancient religion..." Who else knows the force and carries lightsabers?
C'Pi
Starwars.com does not say Sith are Jedi that think differently. The Sith
were Jedi that were outcast from the Jedi Order. They established their own
separate order.
> Why do you think that
> they have the same powers and carry lightsabers?
Because they are both force users. D'uh.
--
C'Pi
As far as that ignoramus knows? Nobody. Remember...the Sith are a SECRET
order.
Besides, they are not talking about the Jedi in that conversation, they are
talking about the Force. Obviously something Motti doesn't believe in.
ronin
> You don't even see Obi-Wan's face when Yoda gives his line. Obi-Wan knew,
> he didn't need reminding, he just didn't consider Leia a viable
> alternative. When he says "That boy is our last hope" he literally means
> it.
if Obi-Wan believed so strongly that Leia wasn't even worth persuing as a
champion, why did Yoda?
or do you think Yoda believed Leia could have been as good, with the proper
training, despite having no time to do it?
JAC
"Guest"
Does that not requrie separate thought? Get a grip man.
"Guest"
He was not talking about the force, he was talking about Jedi's. He said
that Vader was all that was left. How can he talk about the force and know
about it without knowing who uses it?
C'Pi
Yes, and necessitates them being different orders.
> Get a grip man.
My hands are already full.
C'Pi
Vader was talking about the force. It is what Motti was replying to. I'm
sure Motti knows a bit about the Jedi. I'm sure he knows nothing about the
Sith.
Sith are not Jedi. Now just get a grip.
Masterplan
ronin wrote:
> "Masterplan" <bernie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snippage>
>
> >> scenario:
> >> "The Emperor knew, as did I, that if Anakin had any offspring,
they
> would be
>
>
> if he knows about one, he'd almost HAVE to know about both. twins
> pregnancies gain more weight faster than single pregnancies. meaning
she'd
> show a HELL of a lot faster. not to mention the major increase in her
bust
> size.
True, but Anakin does kinda have his hands full with this little war
that's going on. It's not he's stopping by every day to see her. They
probably do most of their talking to e/o via holgram.
>but they were trying to hide her pregnancy because they didn't want
> Palpatine to know, and even concealment and coverage will only last
for the
> first two or three months, depending on how MUCH weight she gains.
anything
> past that, and EVERYONE would know not only that she's pregnant, but
that
> she's having twins.
Some of those wacky Starwars costumes could be made to cover even that.
At least to the point that Anakin would still believe that there's
only one in there.
I don't think it's so much Palpatine she's hiding it from. She's
hiding it because she's not supposed to be married to a Jedi, much less
have his children.
By the end of the movie the Jedi will find out who Palps really is, and
then it becomes important to hid the children from him.
>
> by Obi-Wan's words, it's fairly obvious that they knew by then that
Anakin
> was under Palpatine's wing. if Anakin knew she was pregnant, so did
> Palpatine.
Anakin never tells Palpatine that he married Padme. Why would he spill
the kid thing?
>so if Padmé dies, in EpIII, she would have already been in
> hiding for at least six or seven months by that time. and she will
not have
> been killed by Anakin, since she was hiding from him as well.
Until someone tells her he's turned to the dark side, which would bring
her out of hiding to try to help him. Wouldn't you at least try ?
>
> >>when
> >> it becomes obvious that Anakin is Sith, Yoda and Obi-Wan take
Padmé
> to
> >> Dagobah to have her child. Luke is born first, and Obi-Wan takes
him
> into
> >> hiding on Tatooine with his uncle, leaving Padmé with Yoda to
handle
> her
> >> witness relocation.
>
> > I'm no doctor, but all of the twins I know of were born minutes
apart.
> > You're leaving an awful lot of time inbetween births for Obi-Wan to
> > wisk away Luke before Leia comes out.
>
> no, it just got...written that way. i wasn't implying that Obi-Wan
arrived
> on Tatooine before Leia was born.
Ah, because I was picturing Obi-Wan 10 yards away from Padme, she gives
a good push, and Luke sails across the air into the waiting hands of
Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan whirls around, hurtles over a fallen tree, jumps in
his star fighter, and heads off to Tatooine.
>but if Obi-Wan's in a hurry, he'd see the
> child born is a boy, and leave with him. but now that i think about
it,
> he'd know about the twins thing anyway. maybe she's born not
breathing or
> something, and he thinks she dies.
> anyway, point is that they were born in hiding with a living mother.
> probably on Dagobah.
Most likely.
>
> <snippage>
>
> > this would explain:
> > 1) Obi-Wan's ignorance of Leia's relation to Luke.
>
> I don't remember Obi-Wan, Luke, and Leia ever being together at the
> same time in ANH.
>
> talking about ESB: "That boy is our only hope." "No, there
is...another."
>
> if Obi-Wan knew, Yoda wouldn't have said it that way. Probably
would've
> said something like "Forget, do you? There is another."
Well, Obi-Wan so far has already started Luke's training and got him
off Tatooine, gave up his physical form to help Luke, and directed him
to further his training w/ Yoda. At this point if I were Obi-Wan, I
would feel like there's no chance of starting this all over again w/
someone else.
>this would both
> foreshadow the revelation about Luke's sister and still conceal her
identity
> from viewers while at the same time clueing those same viewers in to
a
> deeper plot backstory between Obi-Wan and Yoda about the twins'
birth.
>
> <snippage>
>
> >> 4) Why it takes picking the thoughts out of Luke's head to learn
of
> the
> >> existence of yet anOTHER offspring, heretofore unknown, even after
> learning
> >> of Luke.
>
> > He obviously didn't know she was carrying twins, and he certainly
> > wasn't there when they were born.
>
> like i said, if Anakin didn't know she was carrying twins, Padmé was
already
> gone.
Or speaking to each other via hologram most of the movie, with a couple
very brief in person visits, when she'll have an extreamly good cover
up job going on.
>she and Obi-Wan knew that he would be confiding in Palpatine, so she
> probably didn't tell him, probably went straight to Obi-Wan and the
Jedi
> Council to ask what to do.
The whole marrage is between Anakin, Padme, the Droids, and her family.
No one else. Not Obi-Wan, Palpatine, or any other Jedi. Keeping
their life secret is a promise they made to each other.
>
> considering that Anakin can probably pick the thoughts out of her
head
> without trying, he may find out as soon as Padmé finds out, so her
not
> telling him probably becomes a moot point.
He wouldn't violate her like that. He may turn bad in the end, but
she's the thing he cares more about than anything. He would never do
anything like that to her.
>meaning she would have gone to
>the Jedi Council immediately, then straight into hiding.
>
> <mode=speculation>
> come to think of it, if she does that, Anakin would ask where she is,
and
> the Jedi would refuse to tell him...giving him fuel to hate them.
hrm.
> Palpatine could easily convince him that some kind of foul play is
going on
> between her and Obi-Wan, then.
I've hated the love triange theory since I first heard it a year or
more ago.
Besides, Obi-Wan is kinda busy fighting this war too.
> </mode>
>
> JAC
Smaug69
It's not made clear in the original films because there is no mention
of the sith or sith lords. Vader was a jedi who turned to the dark
side of the force. Once a jedi always a jedi.
Smaug69
James Willmott
Smaug69 wrote:
> It's not made clear in the original films because there is no mention
> of the sith or sith lords. Vader was a jedi who turned to the dark
> side of the force. Once a jedi always a jedi.
In the original script Vader is described as 'Dark Knight' 'A Sith'
'Dark Lord' 'Dark Lord of the Sith' and 'Sith Knight'
ronin
> if he knows about one, he'd almost HAVE to know about both. twins
> pregnancies gain more weight faster than single pregnancies. meaning
she'd
>> show a HELL of a lot faster. not to mention the major increase in her
bust
>> size.
> True, but Anakin does kinda have his hands full with this little war
that's going on.
> It's not he's stopping by every day to see her. They
probably do most of their talking to e/o via holgram.
the Clone Wars are over by the time EpIII happens. that's why there was the
cartoon shorts miniseries. what we don't know is how LONG it's been over.
according to the timelines i can find, they only last about 3 years anyway.
>> but they were trying to hide her pregnancy because they didn't want
>> Palpatine to know, and even concealment and coverage will only last
for the
>> first two or three months, depending on how MUCH weight she gains.
anything
>> past that, and EVERYONE would know not only that she's pregnant, but
that
>> she's having twins.
> Some of those wacky Starwars costumes could be made to cover even that.
not past three months, they wouldn't.
> At least to the point that Anakin would still believe that there's
> only one in there.
Anakin's not the only one she'd be trying to hide it from. if they're
trying to keep the entire marriage thing a secret, a suddenly pregnant
Senator with a popular voice is going to draw questions.
> I don't think it's so much Palpatine she's hiding it from. She's
> hiding it because she's not supposed to be married to a Jedi, much less
> have his children.
yes, precisely.
> By the end of the movie the Jedi will find out who Palps really is, and
> then it becomes important to hid the children from him.
from him specifically, yes. she would've been hiding it already.
but. we know from EpII that Anakin has been confiding in Palpatine. and
Obi-Wan knows. or at least can figure it out, based on conversations
they've had, besides the fact that he has had no reason to distrust
Palpatine.
once they figure out that Palpatine is Sidious, Obi-Wan would take Padmé
into hiding. but that isn't when she starts hiding her pregnancy. however,
the removal from Coruscant would be an extra precaution unless she's already
showing beyond her ability to cover it up... which will be in the first two
to three months. after that, Palpatine (from Naboo and nominally a great
friend of Padmé to begin with), would have no trouble figuring out who the
father is.
>> by Obi-Wan's words, it's fairly obvious that they knew by then that
Anakin
>> was under Palpatine's wing. if Anakin knew she was pregnant, so did
>> Palpatine.
> Anakin never tells Palpatine that he married Padme. Why would he spill
the kid thing?
we don't know that. yet. in fact, it may be inferred that he DID at least
let slip that he had married, as Obi-Wan says. "The Emperor knew, as did I,
that....". If Anakin never married before turning to Vader, why would the
Emperor even consider his having children?
hell, once he turns Vader, Padmé could've been in hiding for a year or so,
then come back with both kids, claiming they're someone else's. Palpatine
wouldn't know the difference. Vader certainly wouldn't tell him.
huge safety risk, but still. theoretically.
>>so if Padmé dies, in EpIII, she would have already been in
>> hiding for at least six or seven months by that time. and she will
not have
>> been killed by Anakin, since she was hiding from him as well.
>Until someone tells her he's turned to the dark side, which would bring
>her out of hiding to try to help him. Wouldn't you at least try ?
not if she's hiding from Anakin beCAUSE he turned to the Dark Side. seems
the only reason she WOULD, to me.
<snippage: gristle>
>> i wasn't implying that Obi-Wan arrived
>> on Tatooine before Leia was born.
> Ah, because I was picturing Obi-Wan 10 yards away from Padme, she gives
> a good push, and Luke sails across the air into the waiting hands of
> Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan whirls around, hurtles over a fallen tree, jumps in
> his star fighter, and heads off to Tatooine.
doh!
>> anyway, point is that they were born in hiding with a living mother.
>> probably on Dagobah.
> Most likely.
i'd wonder how they found the place anyway. no intelligent life to speak
of, nothing worth setting down. it's a swamp, so no mining worth. no
spice. and it's ugly looking through the viewport. why even bother
stopping to look when you're cruising by the system on your way to somewhere
else.
whatever, they found it and figured it was the best place to hide from the
Sith, in the shadow of the Dark Side tree.
maybe Yoda found it himself and planned on staying there himself or
gathering the Jedi when they started being exterminated.
<snippage>
> > this would explain:
> > 1) Obi-Wan's ignorance of Leia's relation to Luke.
>> talking about ESB: "That boy is our only hope." "No, there
is...another."
>>
>> if Obi-Wan knew, Yoda wouldn't have said it that way. Probably
would've
>> said something like "Forget, do you? There is another."
> Well, Obi-Wan so far has already started Luke's training and got him
> off Tatooine, gave up his physical form to help Luke, and directed him
> to further his training w/ Yoda. At this point if I were Obi-Wan, I
> would feel like there's no chance of starting this all over again w/
> someone else.
not himself, no. but he just as easily manifest for someone else ready to
begin training in the Force to seek out Yoda on Dagobah. as we see in RotJ,
he can sustain his presence for lengthy periods, not just the fleeting
message Luke got in ESB, passing out in the snow. so even if it takes a bit
to convince the "other" that they're not hallucinating, he can do it.
<snippage>
>she and Obi-Wan knew that he would be confiding in Palpatine, so she
> probably didn't tell him, probably went straight to Obi-Wan and the
Jedi
> Council to ask what to do.
The whole marrage is between Anakin, Padme, the Droids, and her family.
No one else. Not Obi-Wan, Palpatine, or any other Jedi. Keeping
their life secret is a promise they made to each other.
but when she gets pregnant, and her OB/GYN droid tells her she's having
twins, who can she turn to? especially if she's doing her Senator thing and
living (for once) on Coruscant where she can be close to Anakin at the
Temple without seeming to hang around. her family's still on Naboo. of all
the people close by, she's known Obi-Wan the longest. she could probably
suppose that with his history and familial relationship with Anakin, he
wouldn't just turn around and expel him from the Order. and if that picture
in Star Wars Insider is to be taken at face value, he's on the Council now.
i know she wouldn't just go out and tell everyone the secret, but if the
choice were about to be taken away from her, i think she'd want it to start
with someone she trusts.
>> considering that Anakin can probably pick the thoughts out of her
head
>> without trying, he may find out as soon as Padmé finds out, so her
not
>> telling him probably becomes a moot point.
> He wouldn't violate her like that. He may turn bad in the end, but
> she's the thing he cares more about than anything. He would never do
> anything like that to her.
key words: without trying.
picking surface thoughts out of someone's head is like skimming scum out of
your aquarium. a LOT different than digging. it's not a violation if the
thought jumps out at you. and something that big would definitely be at the
front of her mind, no matter her attitude toward it.
<snippage: love triangle>
> I've hated the love triange theory since I first heard it a year or
> more ago.
*shrug*
corny, yes. but it sounds like something George Lucas would do.
> Besides, Obi-Wan is kinda busy fighting this war too.
nope. war's over.
JAC
ronin
>
> It's not made clear in the original films because there is no mention
> of the sith or sith lords.
in the films, no. but every novelization of the same films, bills Darth
Vader as "Dark Lord of the Sith". there was speculation out the ass about
what the Sith actually were/was, but nothing was ever confirmed until TPM.
in fact, Timothy Zahn was going to call the Noghri Sith until LFL axed that
idea.
> Vader was a jedi who turned to the dark
> side of the force. Once a jedi always a jedi.
right. once a high-schooler always a high-schooler.
it's simply amazing how you don't get it.
JAC
C'Pi
Don't bother muddling Smaug's head with irrelevant things like facts. He'll
just continue to believe whatever he wants to no matter what.
Masterplan
<snip just about everything because my whole arguement hinges on the
war not being over yet>
>
> nope. war's over.
Do you really think that both Dooku and General Grievious are going to
get killed in the first 10 minutes of the movie? The entire movie is
about the ending the war and Palpatine taking even more control while
doing it. If the war's over that means Palpatine will be declaring
himself Emperor within the first 15 minutes of the movie. That would
be rather anti-climatic. If the war's over, who's the antagonist of
the picture?
>
> JAC
Smaug69
> "James Willmott" you magnificent bastard. I read your post:
> > Smaug69 wrote:
> >
> > > It's not made clear in the original films because there is no
> mention
> >> of the sith or sith lords. Vader was a jedi who turned to the dark
> >> side of the force. Once a jedi always a jedi.
> >
> >
> > In the original script Vader is described as 'Dark Knight' 'A Sith'
> > 'Dark Lord' 'Dark Lord of the Sith' and 'Sith Knight'
>
> Don't bother muddling Smaug's head with irrelevant things like facts. He'll
> just continue to believe whatever he wants to no matter what.
The FACT is that "sith" and "sith lord" was never used in any of the
original films so there's no point even referring to Vader as one.
There's quite a lot of stuff that was changed from the scripts to the
films. If we're going to use the scripts as the end all be all source
for what Lucas intended then we have to believe he fully intended for
Han Solo to be a green alien since he was that way in one of the
earliest scripts.
Smaug69
Smaug69
> "Smaug69" <sma...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > It's not made clear in the original films because there is no mention
> > of the sith or sith lords.
>
> in the films, no. but every novelization of the same films, bills Darth
> Vader as "Dark Lord of the Sith".
And we've already been through this about the books- they mean nothing
compared to the original films.
> there was speculation out the ass about
> what the Sith actually were/was, but nothing was ever confirmed until TPM.
I wouldn't use TPM as an indication of much of anything in the Star
Wars universe. It was the film that destroyed that mystical nature of
the force.
> in fact, Timothy Zahn was going to call the Noghri Sith until LFL axed that
> idea.
>
> > Vader was a jedi who turned to the dark
> > side of the force. Once a jedi always a jedi.
>
> right. once a high-schooler always a high-schooler.
Becoming a Jedi takes a lot more than just breezing through four years
of what's essentially a minimum security prison. The Jedi go through
rigorous training- like the Shaolin- and if they make it through then
those skills are with them for life.
> it's simply amazing how you don't get it.
You're them one who used an irrelevant analogy.
Smaug69
Masterplan
Smaug69 wrote:
<snip>
>
> The FACT is that "sith" and "sith lord" was never used in any of the
> original films so there's no point even referring to Vader as one.
> There's quite a lot of stuff that was changed from the scripts to the
> films. If we're going to use the scripts as the end all be all source
> for what Lucas intended then we have to believe he fully intended for
> Han Solo to be a green alien since he was that way in one of the
> earliest scripts.
Originally, yes.
But:
There is a difference between early drafts and final scripts.
You're proposing that final scripts mean nothing as well?
>
> Smaug69
ronin
> <snip just about everything because my whole arguement hinges on the
> war not being over yet>
poignant.
>> nope. war's over.
>
> Do you really think that both Dooku and General Grievious are going to
> get killed in the first 10 minutes of the movie?
no.
reread the databank on General Grievous.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/generalgrievous/index.html
"...Part non-humanoid alien, part custom-designed droid, Grievous hunted
Jedi for sport and proudly displayed his victims' lightsabers around his
belt as trophies of his conquests. His unorthodox fighting form and
mechanical enhancements gave him an edge in close-quarters combat, and his
strategic ingenuity and flawless cunning rendered him almost invincible
against the Jedi."
if Grievous is mainly killing Jedi, why would the movie be about the Clone
Wars?
however, more surfing on my part has made me revise my statement.
http://www.starwars.com/clonewars/explore/timeline/26.html
"After three long years of relentless fighting, the Clone Wars are nearly at
an end. The Jedi Council dispatches Obi-Wan Kenobi to bring the deadly
leader of the Separatist droid army to justice...."
so the war is basically over, but for this one bit of movie. probably in
the first 15-20 minutes.
> The entire movie is about the ending the war
no, the entire movie is about Anakin becoming Vader.
> and Palpatine taking even more control while doing it.
...and Palpatine taking more power to turn the Republic into the Empire,
yes.
> If the war's over that means Palpatine will be declaring
> himself Emperor within the first 15 minutes of the movie. That would
> be rather anti-climatic.
hrm. point, that. hadn't thought about that one. but you know, if
Palpatine just up and declares himself Emperor, the Rebellion wouldn't have
been so long in the making. it's got to look legitamate, while the Senate
still exists. so it's quite possible he DOES declare himself Emperor in the
first 15 minutes. and only the Jedi know he's a threat.
> If the war's over, who's the antagonist of the picture?
Anakin and Palpatine, of course.
JAC
ronin
>> > It's not made clear in the original films because there is no mention
>> > of the sith or sith lords.
>>
>> in the films, no. but every novelization of the same films, bills Darth
>> Vader as "Dark Lord of the Sith".
>
> And we've already been through this about the books- they mean nothing
> compared to the original films.
only in areas where they contradict the films. that's the whole fewking
point to having levels of canon instead of a single source.
this is not a contradiction.
>> there was speculation out the ass about
>> what the Sith actually were/was, but nothing was ever confirmed until
>> TPM.
>
> I wouldn't use TPM as an indication of much of anything in the Star
> Wars universe. It was the film that destroyed that mystical nature of
> the force.
and how exactly would you have explained Anakin's phenomenal abilities to
the Jedi Council over the HoloNet without quantifying it?
Lucas probably hit that same wall and said fuckit.
>> in fact, Timothy Zahn was going to call the Noghri Sith until LFL axed
>> that
>> idea.
>>
>> > Vader was a jedi who turned to the dark
>> > side of the force. Once a jedi always a jedi.
>>
>> right. once a high-schooler always a high-schooler.
>
> Becoming a Jedi takes a lot more than just breezing through four years
> of what's essentially a minimum security prison.
i take it you didn't learn much in your tenure. graduate, did you? wait,
you said four years. i guess you did. (though my high school was only
three years. i'm ASSUMING you include 9th grade, or you deserved more
security.)
> The Jedi go through
> rigorous training- like the Shaolin- and if they make it through then
> those skills are with them for life.
the skills, yes. but that doesn't make them Jedi. else how could anyone be
threated with expulsion?
from the mouth of Obi-Wan: "You'll be EXPELLED from the Jedi Order!"
>> it's simply amazing how you don't get it.
>
> You're them one who used an irrelevant analogy.
them one? you seem to have a problem with numbers. my analogy was fine.
JAC
Masterplan
Official sources have told us the movie begins with a great space
battle. That alone will take 15 minutes. Then the hunt for Grievious
starts, and that probably wont be resolved until the 40 minute mark.
The whole time Grievious is leading the sepratist droid army in a war
that's nearly over, but not quite.
>
> > The entire movie is about the ending the war
>
> no, the entire movie is about Anakin becoming Vader.
Well, yeah of course. I should have said the entire movie takes place
over the backdrop of the clone wars ending.
>
> > and Palpatine taking even more control while doing it.
>
> ...and Palpatine taking more power to turn the Republic into the
Empire,
> yes.
Right, and who in the senate would approve him taking more and more
power if the war is decided and there's no need for him to have the
emergency powers anymore? What we need is the end of this war to get
really tense, like there's really a threat. Maybe a last ditch effort
by the Seperatists, or maybe Palpatine will turn be able to turn the
entire Senate against the Jedi, but something big.
>
> > If the war's over that means Palpatine will be declaring
> > himself Emperor within the first 15 minutes of the movie. That
would
> > be rather anti-climatic.
>
> hrm. point, that. hadn't thought about that one. but you know, if
> Palpatine just up and declares himself Emperor, the Rebellion
wouldn't have
> been so long in the making. it's got to look legitamate, while the
Senate
> still exists. so it's quite possible he DOES declare himself Emperor
in the
> first 15 minutes.
The senate doesn't officially get disolved until ANH anyway.
>and only the Jedi know he's a threat.
Not yet they don't. And I don't know how far into the movie it's gonna
be before they figure it out.
>
>
> > If the war's over, who's the antagonist of the picture?
>
> Anakin and Palpatine, of course.
Against what backdrop?
>
> JAC
ronin
>
> Official sources have told us the movie begins with a great space
> battle. That alone will take 15 minutes. Then the hunt for Grievious
> starts, and that probably wont be resolved until the 40 minute mark.
> The whole time Grievious is leading the sepratist droid army in a war
> that's nearly over, but not quite.
hrm. which official source? (asking for information, not trying to argue.)
>> > The entire movie is about the ending the war
>>
>> no, the entire movie is about Anakin becoming Vader.
>
> Well, yeah of course. I should have said the entire movie takes place
> over the backdrop of the clone wars ending.
which is different, of course.
>> > and Palpatine taking even more control while doing it.
>>
>> ...and Palpatine taking more power to turn the Republic into the
> Empire,
>> yes.
>
> Right, and who in the senate would approve him taking more and more
> power if the war is decided and there's no need for him to have the
> emergency powers anymore?
i was actually wondering that myself, solely in the context of EpII, when he
says he'll relinquish them as soon as the threat is gone. i was like,
"P-shaw. like that's ever gonna happen."
> What we need is the end of this war to get
> really tense, like there's really a threat. Maybe a last ditch effort
> by the Seperatists, or maybe Palpatine will turn be able to turn the
> entire Senate against the Jedi, but something big.
and that would be too much of a subplot. it'd end up taking away from the
story of Anakin, and his final fall to the Dark Side (while a cool action
sequence) won't mean as much. and if both are in the movie, it'd be too
long.
>> > If the war's over that means Palpatine will be declaring
>> > himself Emperor within the first 15 minutes of the movie. That
> would
>> > be rather anti-climatic.
>>
>> hrm. point, that. hadn't thought about that one. but you know, if
>> Palpatine just up and declares himself Emperor, the Rebellion
> wouldn't have
>> been so long in the making. it's got to look legitamate, while the
> Senate
>> still exists. so it's quite possible he DOES declare himself Emperor
> in the
>> first 15 minutes.
>
> The senate doesn't officially get disolved until ANH anyway.
that's what i mean. i know the Senate still exists, and they're not about
to let him just take a crown and tell everyone to piss off.
>>and only the Jedi know he's a threat.
>
> Not yet they don't. And I don't know how far into the movie it's gonna
> be before they figure it out.
probably at the point where he declares himself Emperor.
>> > If the war's over, who's the antagonist of the picture?
>>
>> Anakin and Palpatine, of course.
>
> Against what backdrop?
um. bluescreen? *grin*
JAC
Masterplan
ronin wrote:
> "Masterplan" <bernie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Official sources have told us the movie begins with a great space
> > battle. That alone will take 15 minutes. Then the hunt for
Grievious
> > starts, and that probably wont be resolved until the 40 minute
mark.
> > The whole time Grievious is leading the sepratist droid army in a
war
> > that's nearly over, but not quite.
>
> hrm. which official source? (asking for information, not trying to
argue.)
I'll reply to the rest of your post in a new post in case you decide
not to look at what's below. It's not movie-ruining type stuff, but
the totally spoiler free bunch may want to look away.
Guess this is considered true spoilers, so I'll leave space:
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
The film will open with a thrilling space battle that pits the forces
of the Republic against the battleships of the Separatists. -OS
The space battle that starts Episode III is long enough and complicated
enough to be subdivided into four scenes for organizational purposes.
-OS
The space battle covers the first 20 minutes of the film. -RB
OS = Official Site
RB = Roger Barton (film editor)
Brett McConnie
> if Obi-Wan believed so strongly that Leia wasn't even worth persuing as a
> champion, why did Yoda?
>
> or do you think Yoda believed Leia could have been as good, with the
> proper training, despite having no time to do it?
Yes I do believe that. Yoda's trained Jedi for 800 years so I'm sure he
knows a little bit more about it than Obi-Wan. The only problem in this
scenario is the fact that if Luke goes to Cloud City then both he and Leia
are in danger and while one can be sacrificed what will Yoda do if they both
die?
Smaug69
Well, Jabba ended up not looking exactly as he is described in the
final script. Who knows how many more changes were made during the
filmimg? The films really should be the only evidence for anything.
Smaug69
Masterplan
In a way, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that. The
scripts are nice to fill in some gaps. This whole Sith thing for
example. Mentioning the word "sith" in the OT doesn't add anything to
the movies. Now obviously you don't want to acknowledge the PT, but
they still are SW films, and what takes place in them must also be
considered canon. The word Sith has made it thru just about every
script revision GL ever did. And now in the PT it's mentioned on film.
So it's what the bad guys are, they're sith. Now what was the
original question again? :)
>
> Smaug69
ronin
>>
>> or do you think Yoda believed Leia could have been as good, with the
>> proper training, despite having no time to do it?
>
> Yes I do believe that. Yoda's trained Jedi for 800 years so I'm sure he
> knows a little bit more about it than Obi-Wan.
an interesting quandry thus appears:
how does Yoda think he can get Leia into his vicinity in order to train her?
Obi-Wan is not only dead, but a complete stranger to her. they've never
met. not to mention that she doesn't realize she can touch the Force, so
like as not, she wouldn't be able to see the ghosts. she certainly doesn't
in RotJ. and Yoda.... he's stranded on Dagobah. man, his life's gotta
suck.
JAC
Masterplan
Hence Obi-Wan's comment that the boy is their only hope.
> JAC
Smaug69
<snip>
> > Well, Jabba ended up not looking exactly as he is described in the
> > final script. Who knows how many more changes were made during the
> > filmimg? The films really should be the only evidence for anything.
>
> In a way, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that. The
> scripts are nice to fill in some gaps.
What about the discrepancies and changes between scripts and between
the scripts and the films? Picking and choosing what you like seems
rather silly. That's why I choose to ignore the scripts altogether.
> This whole Sith thing for
> example. Mentioning the word "sith" in the OT doesn't add anything to
> the movies. Now obviously you don't want to acknowledge the PT, but
> they still are SW films, and what takes place in them must also be
> considered canon.
I don't consider TPM to be canon when it comes to the Force. Since it
contradicts what came before it doesn't count.
> The word Sith has made it thru just about every
> script revision GL ever did.
And yet it wasn't important enough to actually put in the original
films.
> And now in the PT it's mentioned on film.
I'm not giving much credence to anything added to the Star Wars
universe in the last 10 years. Most of it's been shite at best and
contradictory at worst.
> So it's what the bad guys are, they're sith. Now what was the
> original question again? :)
I'm pretty sure the question was something like "Are the sith jedi?"
Smaug69
Smaug69
> "Smaug69" <sma...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> > It's not made clear in the original films because there is no mention
> >> > of the sith or sith lords.
> >>
> >> in the films, no. but every novelization of the same films, bills Darth
> >> Vader as "Dark Lord of the Sith".
> >
> > And we've already been through this about the books- they mean nothing
> > compared to the original films.
>
> only in areas where they contradict the films. that's the whole fewking
> point to having levels of canon instead of a single source.
The films to me are the only source for canon. There are too many
discrepancies, inconsistencies and contradictions between the scripts
and too many discrepancies, inconsistencies and contradictions between
the scripts and the films. It's much easier and more logical to focus
on what's on the screen. That was what Lucas intended for us to see
and hear.
> this is not a contradiction.
Lucas did not feel that it was important enough to put in any of the
original films. That means he never intended for us to know about the
sith.
> >> there was speculation out the ass about
> >> what the Sith actually were/was, but nothing was ever confirmed until
> >> TPM.
> >
> > I wouldn't use TPM as an indication of much of anything in the Star
> > Wars universe. It was the film that destroyed that mystical nature of
> > the force.
>
> and how exactly would you have explained Anakin's phenomenal abilities to
> the Jedi Council over the HoloNet without quantifying it?
How do you explain Mozart's musical abilities? Or Einstein's math
abilities? Are these quantifiable? Anakin had some incredible natural
abilities. Maybe he was just naturally attuned to the Force. Yoda(and
Obi-wan) laid out what the Force is all about in the OT and it's
certainly not something that can be boiled down to science. TPM
contradicted the OT on that issue so it gets tossed out.
> Lucas probably hit that same wall and said fuckit.
No, Lucas forgot about ESB since he didn't write it in the first
place. Someone should have been around during the making of TPM to
remind him of that film.
He would have been better off just using Vader's line from ANH, "The
Force is strong with this one."
> >> right. once a high-schooler always a high-schooler.
> >
> > Becoming a Jedi takes a lot more than just breezing through four years
> > of what's essentially a minimum security prison.
>
> i take it you didn't learn much in your tenure.
I learned enough to know that the amount of effort it took me to get
through high school would be a drop in the bucket compared to the
rigorous mental and physical training that the Jedi endure.
> graduate, did you? wait,
> you said four years. i guess you did. (though my high school was only
> three years. i'm ASSUMING you include 9th grade, or you deserved more
> security.)
When I was in high school the majority of the high schools had grades
9-12. That's why the 9th graders are called Freshmen. If they aren't
in the same school as the other 3 grades then they aren't technically
Freshmen.
> > The Jedi go through
> > rigorous training- like the Shaolin- and if they make it through then
> > those skills are with them for life.
>
> the skills, yes. but that doesn't make them Jedi. else how could anyone be
> threated with expulsion?
>
> from the mouth of Obi-Wan: "You'll be EXPELLED from the Jedi Order!"
That wouldn't remove the Jedi skills.
>
> >> it's simply amazing how you don't get it.
> >
> > You're them one who used an irrelevant analogy.
>
> them one?
I accidently added an "m." Are we going to start counting typos now?
> you seem to have a problem with numbers. my analogy was fine.
High school versus Jedi training? Hardly.
Smaug69
Masterplan
Smaug69 wrote:
> "Masterplan" <bernie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:<1096567271.0...@h37g2000oda.googlegroups.com>...
>
> <snip>
>
> > > Well, Jabba ended up not looking exactly as he is described in
the
> > > final script. Who knows how many more changes were made during
the
> > > filmimg? The films really should be the only evidence for
anything.
> >
> > In a way, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that. The
> > scripts are nice to fill in some gaps.
>
> What about the discrepancies and changes between scripts and between
> the scripts and the films? Picking and choosing what you like seems
> rather silly. That's why I choose to ignore the scripts altogether.
Not altogether silly. You know that white snow creature from ESB? How
do you know what that thing is called from the film only? No one says
the word "Wampa" at any time in any of the movies. Same thing will
many many one line/scene characters. We never hear their name on
screen, yet we know them and accept them because they were in the book
or script by that name. If you want to throw out some scenes or even
dialogue from the scripts, that's fine, but I think names are something
you have to attach a little more value to. Vader is a Sith Lord just
as much as the ice creature is a Wampa. If one's not true, then
neither is the other.
>
> > This whole Sith thing for
> > example. Mentioning the word "sith" in the OT doesn't add anything
to
> > the movies. Now obviously you don't want to acknowledge the PT,
but
> > they still are SW films, and what takes place in them must also be
> > considered canon.
>
> I don't consider TPM to be canon when it comes to the Force. Since it
> contradicts what came before it doesn't count.
To each his own.
>
> > The word Sith has made it thru just about every
> > script revision GL ever did.
>
> And yet it wasn't important enough to actually put in the original
> films.
Just like many character names.
>
> > And now in the PT it's mentioned on film.
>
> I'm not giving much credence to anything added to the Star Wars
> universe in the last 10 years. Most of it's been shite at best and
> contradictory at worst.
>
> > So it's what the bad guys are, they're sith. Now what was the
> > original question again? :)
>
> I'm pretty sure the question was something like "Are the sith jedi?"
Oh. Um, possibly at the beginning, but I would think they're
considered a seperate order now.
>
> Smaug69
ronin
>>
>> >> > It's not made clear in the original films because there is no
>> >> > mention
>> >> > of the sith or sith lords.
>> >>
>> >> in the films, no. but every novelization of the same films, bills
>> >> Darth
>> >> Vader as "Dark Lord of the Sith".
>> >
>> > And we've already been through this about the books- they mean nothing
>> > compared to the original films.
>>
>> only in areas where they contradict the films. that's the whole fewking
>> point to having levels of canon instead of a single source.
>
> The films to me are the only source for canon.
then you need to revise your opinion, as it contradicts what IS.
> There are too many
> discrepancies, inconsistencies and contradictions between the scripts
> and too many discrepancies, inconsistencies and contradictions between
> the scripts and the films. It's much easier and more logical to focus
> on what's on the screen. That was what Lucas intended for us to see
> and hear.
>
>> this is not a contradiction.
>
> Lucas did not feel that it was important enough to put in any of the
> original films. That means he never intended for us to know about the
> sith.
Lucas never mentions Bail Organa's name in the films, but it's DEFINITELY
clear that we ARE supposed to know who he is and his importance, as he's a
major fewking character in the adoptive father of Leia. otherwise, he's
just a face who supports Palpatine. whoopty-fewkin'-do.
<snippage>
>> and how exactly would you have explained Anakin's phenomenal abilities to
>> the Jedi Council over the HoloNet without quantifying it?
>
> How do you explain Mozart's musical abilities? Or Einstein's math
> abilities? Are these quantifiable?
no, and therefore undescribable. and as such, some may choose to disbelieve
their levels of greatness.
> Anakin had some incredible natural
> abilities. Maybe he was just naturally attuned to the Force.
...and how do you tell that to a Council of experts in this matter without
either quantifying it or showing them the kid in person? and showing the
kid in person necessitated permission first, obtained only be
quantification.
> Yoda (and Obi-wan) laid out what the Force is all about in the OT
...but not what it IS. they didn't need to quantify it.
> and it's
> certainly not something that can be boiled down to science.
everything can be boiled down to science. you just haven't been looking in
the right places.
> TPM contradicted the OT on that issue so it gets tossed out.
no, it didn't contradict anything. it just took a different perspective of
the same truth. something Jedi do all the time, if Obi-Wan is a good
example.
>> Lucas probably hit that same wall and said fuckit.
>
> No, Lucas forgot about ESB
GL "forgot" about ESB? what fucking universe are YOU living in?
> since he didn't write it in the first place.
he didn't write the script. he DID write the story (treatment, summary,
synopsis, whatever you want to call it) the script was based on.
> Someone should have been around during the making of TPM to
> remind him of that film.
you are a moron.
> He would have been better off just using Vader's line from ANH, "The
> Force is strong with this one."
Yoda: "Strong, is he?"
Mace Windu: "I assume you mean strong enough to break the rules and start
his training, even though he's nine."
Ki-Adi-Mundi: "How strong is he, exactly, that we should consider doing
this?"
>> >> right. once a high-schooler always a high-schooler.
>> >
>> > Becoming a Jedi takes a lot more than just breezing through four years
>> > of what's essentially a minimum security prison.
>>
>> i take it you didn't learn much in your tenure.
>
> I learned enough to know that the amount of effort it took me to get
> through high school would be a drop in the bucket compared to the
> rigorous mental and physical training that the Jedi endure.
...which is completely irrelevant, but it does shed some light on the reason
for your stupidity.
why oh WHY did you agree with me? you could've kept your mouth shut and
looked at least marginally smarter.
>> graduate, did you? wait,
>> you said four years. i guess you did. (though my high school was only
>> three years. i'm ASSUMING you include 9th grade, or you deserved more
>> security.)
>
> When I was in high school the majority of the high schools had grades
> 9-12. That's why the 9th graders are called Freshmen. If they aren't
> in the same school as the other 3 grades then they aren't technically
> Freshmen.
but they're still called that, for some reason.
>
>> > The Jedi go through
>> > rigorous training- like the Shaolin- and if they make it through then
>> > those skills are with them for life.
>>
>> the skills, yes. but that doesn't make them Jedi. else how could anyone
>> be
>> threated with expulsion?
>>
>> from the mouth of Obi-Wan: "You'll be EXPELLED from the Jedi Order!"
>
> That wouldn't remove the Jedi skills.
no, it wouldn't. that was my POINT. they're no longer Jedi, but they will
retain any skills they've learned. 's like learning how to read in school.
even if you get expelled, you can still read.
>> >> it's simply amazing how you don't get it.
>> >
>> > You're them one who used an irrelevant analogy.
>>
>> them one?
>
> I accidently added an "m." Are we going to start counting typos now?
i lost count long ago. but you'll notice that i didn't just leave it at
that.
...but i am leaving it at this.
JAC