How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi?
goraion
of:
1. Relationships with other characters
2. Personality
3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
By watching the Sailormoon S series, I get the impression that the
personalities of Sailorneptune and Sailoruranus are insensitive, especially
the episode where Haruka took Usagi's transformation brooch by force and
threaten to kill her if she interfere. Or another when Haruka and Michiru
ignored Sailormoon when she found out that they are Neptune and Uranus.
fred kiefer
goraion wrote:
One thing I know about them is that they are supposably Stronger
Scortia with her Jupiter Fanbook and Plushie!
goraion wrote:
> How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in Sailormoon in terms
> of:
>
> 1. Relationships with other characters
They aren't as open hearted and tend to only associate with themselves.
>
>
> 2. Personality
In S, they are very proud, IMHO. Thinking thenselves above the rest, in some
respects...They are always very much more mature, and think on a higher, more
artistic nature. They expect more out of people than should be expected.
>
>
> 3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
>
> By watching the Sailormoon S series, I get the impression that the
> personalities of Sailorneptune and Sailoruranus are insensitive, especially
> the episode where Haruka took Usagi's transformation brooch by force and
> threaten to kill her if she interfere. Or another when Haruka and Michiru
> ignored Sailormoon when she found out that they are Neptune and Uranus.
They are that way in S...Then later they develop into that "We must protect the
princess" thing that the inner senshi have.
--
--Scortia-chan
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Shrine/4100/
"History is written by those who have hanged heroes." - 17th Earl of Bruce
(Braveheart)
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Shiva and the awesome Sakura real model
On 6 Nov 1998, goraion wrote:
> How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in Sailormoon in terms
> of:
>
> 1. Relationships with other characters
You mean like relations with the same characters? Read below.
> 2. Personality
Dedicated to their missions. H&M are by far the coolest couple in BSSM.
Unfortunately Hotaru and Setsuna don't get much character development. :(
> 3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
The Outers are guardians of the galaxy, the Inners are the court and
guardians of the Moon Princess. Individually they are more powerful than
the Inners.
> By watching the Sailormoon S series, I get the impression that the
> personalities of Sailorneptune and Sailoruranus are insensitive, especially
> the episode where Haruka took Usagi's transformation brooch by force and
> threaten to kill her if she interfere. Or another when Haruka and Michiru
> ignored Sailormoon when she found out that they are Neptune and Uranus.
They are not by any means insensitive. If you think about it, finding the
talismans and saving the world from destruction is a hell of a lot more
important than being all Barney-like, which is what some people expect the
show to be like.
SMS Inners: Stop daimons from stealing pure hearts.
SMS Outers: Find talismans, no matter what.
Who comes off looking all nicey-nice?
They are portrayed to be adults in nearly every sense of the word. They
have a lot of money, go to the good school (which, I might add, has a
FOUNTAIN inside of it), are all superbly intelligent and powerful, and
they know it. This draws a lot of arrogance criticism, since they are
relatively free of the self-doubt that some of the inners have, which is
used as a vehicle for character identification for said inners.
Without knowing about Pharoah 90, the best decision would have been to
kill Hotaru. Sailor Moon had absolutely no plan or no idea how she was
going to pull it off, but did, since the name of the show is BSSM, not
BSSU.
Crimsonjacket
Shiva and the awesome Sakura real model wrote:
>
>
> The Outers are guardians of the galaxy, the Inners are the court and
> guardians of the Moon Princess. Individually they are more powerful than
> the Inners.
>
Actually, the Outers guard the Sol System from outside intruders. It's much
easier to guard the Sol Systems from where they are positioned, than to guard an
entire galaxy (unless it was on Luna's belt *MIB reference*).
--
Chad Gayman/Crimsonjacket
"He was dreaming, of course. He had known that for some time. The Yeti who had
asked him, in halting Old High Gallifreyan, if he had any cigarettes probably
gave the game away."
-Doctor Who "The Hollow Men", page 93
Crimsonjacket
TCurryFan wrote:
> >In order to save the world (and billions of men, women, and
> >children) they have to get the three Talismans and summon
> >the Grail for the Messiah to use. But getting the Talismans
> >means three innocent people with pure hearts are going to
> >die. They see no way around it, they are going to have to
> >murder three people to save the rest.
>
> Besides, if the bad guys get the Grail, they'd kill those three people anyway,
> and if they didn't, they'd die in the Silence. So those people would be dead
> anyway.
They already would have killed the three people. After your Heart/Soul Crystal
is lost, you are dead, you have no Heart/Soul, so you are dead.
S
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Haruka and Michiru died after their Crystals/Talismans were removed. Pluto was
never reincarnated, so she had her Talisman outside her body.
>
>
> >This is a horrible situation to be in, particularly for two
> >people with the sensitivities Haruka and Michiru have,
>
> Not too mention that they're 15! Can you imagine having to make choices like
> that at that age?
I thought that they were at least 16.
TCurryFan
>By watching the Sailormoon S series, I get the impression
>that the personalities of Sailorneptune and Sailoruranus are
>insensitive, especially the episode where Haruka took
>Usagi's transformation brooch by force and threaten to kill
>her if she interfere.
Not *exactly*... At least in the translation I have, they said that if she'd
interfered, she'd die... Maybe they were afraid the bad guys would kill her?
And I don't think they were "insensitive"... They HAVE to do this to save the
world, and SM and her little friends (in their pov) keep trying to stop them.
They were hoping by taking her brooch, she wouldn't interefere, and not only
would that keep her and the otehr Senshi out of their hair, but that would keep
them from getting hurt.
Catherine Johnson, who thinks Haruka and Michiru are more "misunderstood SM
characters".
TCur...@aol.com ---------- Sailor Andromeda ---------- MiSTie #75, 125
"Nothin' worse than wakin' up one day cute."
-Merlynn
Frank White
>
>How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in Sailormoon in terms
>of:
>
>1. Relationships with other characters
>
>
>3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
>
>personalities of Sailorneptune and Sailoruranus are insensitive, especially
>the episode where Haruka took Usagi's transformation brooch by force and
>ignored Sailormoon when she found out that they are Neptune and Uranus.
Insensitive?
No, not really.
But...
(possible spoiler space)
Haruka and Michiru have a problem. In order to save the world
(and billions of men, women, and children) they have to get the
three Talismans and summon the Grail for the Messiah to use.
But getting the Talismans means three innocent people with pure
hearts are going to die. They see no way around it, they are
going to have to murder three people to save the rest. This
is a horrible situation to be in, particularly for two people
with the sensitivities Haruka and Michiru have, and the only
way they can face it is to shut down all their better feelings
and focus exclusiviely on the ABSOLUTE, UTTER necessity of
doing this, that there is no alternative, and they must be cold
hearted and unrelenting and brush aside all obstacles that might
stop them.
And then along comes Usagi, with her sweetness, and innocence,
and her insistence there has to be another way. She's a
distraction, she's an irritant, and worst of all, as Sailor
Moon she's a threat because with her power she might actually
prevent them from accomplishing their goal (although she would
see it instead as 'saving three lives'). They can't allow this;
and since the job given them by Queen Serenity is protection of
the Solar System from outside threats, NOT protection of the
Princess, they feel free to use any tactics they can to try and
stop her from meddling.
As it turns out, Usagi IS right, there IS another way (fortunately),
and her 'meddling' is key not only to getting the Grail, but also
in time to the Senshi's final victory in defeating the Silence.
Usagi's determination to save EVERYONE, not just the majority,
proves to be a MUCH better course than Uranus and Neptune's
determined ruthlessness.
Unfortunately it takes them the rest of S to see it that way.
FW
TCurryFan
>Insensitive?
>
>No, not really.
>
>But...
>
>(possible spoiler space)
>
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>
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>
>
>
>Haruka and Michiru have a problem.
The heartbreak of psoriasis? ^_^
<sorry...>
>In order to save the world (and billions of men, women, and
>children) they have to get the three Talismans and summon
>the Grail for the Messiah to use. But getting the Talismans
>means three innocent people with pure hearts are going to
>die. They see no way around it, they are going to have to
>murder three people to save the rest.
Besides, if the bad guys get the Grail, they'd kill those three people anyway,
and if they didn't, they'd die in the Silence. So those people would be dead
anyway.
>This is a horrible situation to be in, particularly for two
>people with the sensitivities Haruka and Michiru have,
Not too mention that they're 15! Can you imagine having to make choices like
that at that age?
>and the only way they can face it is to shut down all their
>better feelings and focus exclusiviely on the ABSOLUTE,
>UTTER necessity of doing this, that there is no alternative,
>and they must be cold hearted and unrelenting and brush
>aside all obstacles that might stop them.
Yet, even with all that, you can still see how hard it is for them.. They
hesitate more than once, or try to step in and stop the MotD before they take
the person's heart crystal. A lot of peple in the "Haruka and Michiru are
heartless bitches" camp seem to forget that. And the REALLY intreresting thing
is that Haruka- the ones who's usually seen as the more heartless- is the one
who seems the more uncertain.
>And then along comes Usagi, with her sweetness, and
>innocence, and her insistence there has to be another way.
>She's a distraction, she's an irritant, and worst of all, as Sailor
>Moon she's a threat because with her power she might
>actually prevent them from accomplishing their goal
Exactly. And she DOES get in their way, more then once, as do the other
Senshi. So they have good reason to try and prevent that- even to the point of
taking her henshin brooch.
>(although she would see it instead as 'saving three lives').
>They can't allow this; and since the job given them by Queen
>Serenity is protection of the Solar System from outside
>threats, NOT protection of the Princess, they feel free to
>use any tactics they can to try and stop her from meddling.
Plus, I'm not sure if they know that she's the Princess, do they?
>As it turns out, Usagi IS right, there IS another way
>(fortunately), and her 'meddling' is key not only to getting the
>Grail, but also in time to the Senshi's final victory in defeating
>the Silence. Usagi's determination to save EVERYONE, not
>just the majority, proves to be a MUCH better course than
>Uranus and Neptune's determined ruthlessness.
Just once, I'd like to see something were the ones with the more ruthless
methods were actually right...
>Unfortunately it takes them the rest of S to see it that way.
Well, I never said they weren't stubborn... ^_^
>FW
Catherine Johnson, rabid H&M fan.
VeilK
>How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in Sailormoon in terms
>of:
>
>1. Relationships with other characters
>
>2. Personality
>
>3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
>
Here are a couple of excellent links to check out on this subject:
The Sailor Senshi Page:
http://neptune.animecity.ml.org/sailormoon/index2.html
But especially this page; it's designed to give insights into the characters
for fanfic writers:
The Outer Senshi Trio:
http://id.mind.net/~cameo/
Then click on character resources I believe it's called. It's got info on how
the outer and inners relate to each other, comparative power listing, etc.
Have fun exploring!
Ja!
Veil
MichiruTen
>personalities of Sailorneptune and Sailoruranus are insensitive, especially
>the episode where Haruka took Usagi's transformation brooch by force and
>threaten to kill her if she interfere. Or another when Haruka and Michiru
>ignored Sailormoon when she found out that they are Neptune and Uranus.
Oh no! They aren't insensitive at all! I mean, first you've got to look at
things through their point of view. Didn't you notice how much Haruka was
feeling guilty because of her mission? I'd say that they're some of the most
sensitive senshi, though the most misunderstood. How would you feel having the
life of every innocent person in the world on your conscience if you fail your
mission? All that responsibility--you can't afford to get emotionally involved
or else you'll go insane, right? I doubt that any of us would *not* go insane
just thinking about the reprecussions of our actions. And to avoid becoming
emotionally involved, you must *seem* insenstive.
~.,.,.,(Ż*^v^*Michiru Tenoh*^v^*Ż),.,.,.~
Mooniecode (1.8.11): SM:5+[7]m+ F:sUr>+++Ne>+++ :vEu>Ir> :p*++[+]>S++
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mke...@ycp.edu
"Scortia with her Jupiter Fanbook and Plushie!" <sco...@i-55.com> wrote:
> They aren't as open hearted and tend to only associate with themselves.
>
> > 2. Personality
>
> In S, they are very proud, IMHO. Thinking thenselves above the rest, in some
> respects...They are always very much more mature, and think on a higher, more
> artistic nature. They expect more out of people than should be expected.
Including themselves.
Marie
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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kristyn lier
>>>1. Relationships with other characters
2. Personality
3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
personalities of Sailorneptune and Sailoruranus are insensitive,
especially the episode where Haruka took Usagi's transformation brooch
by force and threaten to kill her if she interfere. Or another when
Haruka and Michiru ignored Sailormoon when she found out that they are
Neptune and Uranus.<<<
frank wrote _so_ well that i have nothing left to say ^_^:
>>Insensitive?
No, not really.
But...
(possible spoiler space)
Haruka and Michiru have a problem. In order to save the world (and
billions of men, women, and children) they have to get the three
Talismans and summon the Grail for the Messiah to use. But getting the
Talismans means three innocent people with pure hearts are going to die.
They see no way around it, they are going to have to murder three people
to save the rest. This is a horrible situation to be in, particularly
for two people with the sensitivities Haruka and Michiru have, and the
only way they can face it is to shut down all their better feelings and
focus exclusiviely on the ABSOLUTE, UTTER necessity of doing this, that
there is no alternative, and they must be cold hearted and unrelenting
and brush aside all obstacles that might stop them.
And then along comes Usagi, with her sweetness, and innocence, and her
insistence there has to be another way. She's a distraction, she's an
irritant, and worst of all, as Sailor Moon she's a threat because with
her power she might actually prevent them from accomplishing their goal
(although she would see it instead as 'saving three lives'). They can't
allow this; and since the job given them by Queen Serenity is protection
of the Solar System from outside threats, NOT protection of the
Princess,<<
a very true and very real fact many tend to forget, or do not know.
their job, their duty is to protect the solar system from outside
threats. the concerns of the inners (both in senshi and in those who
live in the sol solar system) are not of their concern. they cannot be
bothered by that otherwise they won't be able to carry out their duties,
and their mission.
>>they feel free to use any tactics they can to try and stop her from meddling.<<
and to prevent her harm. for though they wouldn't admit it at any time
during the S season, the outers grew very fond of the inners, and
especially of usagi. it tore them to see thme suffer, or to think of
them coming to harm.. but they couldn't let that distract them from
their mission. it is painfully obvious the emotional strain this casues
harukamichiru by the subtleties of facial expressions and decisional
angst during situations. i think, imo, that harukamichiru's inner
struggles are very clearly and exquisitely portrayed in the anime, and
in S season.
also, by finding out that they themselves were the carriers of the pure
heart crystals.. it was like a relief and a release for them. no longer
did they have the horrible pressure and guilt of knowing that three
innocents would die and they would be the ones that killed them. only
they would die, and that was ok. that is how they viewed it, especially
haruka after neptune has hers taken. uranus soon follows her love, and
to save the world, because it was her duty, her mission, and her
release.
>>As it turns out, Usagi IS right, there IS another way (fortunately), and her 'meddling' is key not only to getting the Grail, but also in time to the Senshi's final victory in defeating the Silence. Usagi's determination to save EVERYONE, not just the majority, proves to be a MUCH better course than Uranus and Neptune's determined ruthlessness.
Unfortunately it takes them the rest of S to see it that way.<<
it's a process that takes the whole S series. it is shown in the SMSS
special that they have accepted this, and stand ready to help the inners
and usagi (their princess, and messiah) if and when the time came. their
statement at the end of the episode says this. their change or shift in
attitude is shown very clearly in Stars. but, though they now defend
their princess, they do not and have not forgotten their duty and
mission to defend the whole system. they see that by saving and
protecting usagi, they are saving and protecting the solar system, and
so still carrying out their duty. they do not feel lakcing in this way,
and they know it to be true. even pluto consents as such and does her
part. of course, at the slightest indication of an outer threat, they
would be there to meet it. and defeat it, but should it be too strong,
they know they can call on usagi and the inners.
hehe.. ^_^;; gues i did have a bit to say, but just some adders and
thoughts i have. still, you have beautifull said what i woud have
attempted to say. your posts are always an insight to read, frank.
k-chan
it's saturday. yahoo!!
****me page****
http://www.jacksonville.net/~phoenix/kchan.htm
kristyn lier
>>>This is a horrible situation to be in, particularly for two people with the sensitivities Haruka and Michiru have<<<
catherine wrote:
>>Not too mention that they're 15! Can you imagine having to make choices like that at that age?<<
i am 21, and let me say that not even now, not even later could i be
able to make the decisions, the choice that harukamichiru have to make.
and they do. and they have to live with it and no they do not like it.
but, they do not have to like it to have to do it, at least, not
considering what is at stake.
personally, to take another life.. i couldn't. and the scary thing is..
i would probably make the same choice harukamichiru make because it is
the right thing [i am no usagi :|]. knowing i would have to live with
that.. i would have just as juch problem with it as haruka or michiru. a
distancing of myself would be inevitable.
frank wrote:
>>>(although she would see it instead as 'saving three lives'). They can't allow this; and since the job given them by Queen Serenity is protection of the Solar System from outside threats, NOT protection of the Princess, they feel free to use any tactics they can to try and stop her from meddling.<<<
catherine wrote:
>>Plus, I'm not sure if they know that she's the Princess, do they?<<
from what i can figure, they do not know she is the princess. if
anything, hey see her as their messiah: the only one who can save their
world, and them, from the silence. that is who they see her as when she
goes to save saturn after saturn sacrifices herself to defeat pharoah
90, and who they kneel and vow allegiance, and forgivenss to, in the
last episode. it is only at this end do i think that they may have some
knowledge as to usagi being the moon princess. i'm not sure, but i think
pluto tells them [near the end].
but before they see and know her as the princess, they think of her as
the messiah. their dedication to her later is as the moon princess.
(so i figure. i may be worng about something(s). if so, someone correct
me, please :))
k-chan
rabid. just rabid. my being a harukamichiru utaku just pleasantly
coincides with it well ^_-
****me page****
http://www.jacksonville.net/~phoenix/kchan.htm
TCurryFan
>TCurryFan wrote:
>
>> >In order to save the world (and billions of men, women,
>> >and children) they have to get the three Talismans and
>> >summon the Grail for the Messiah to use. But getting the
>> >Talismans means three innocent people with pure hearts
>> >are going to die. They see no way around it, they are
>> >going to have to murder three people to save the rest.
>>
>> Besides, if the bad guys get the Grail, they'd kill those
>> three people anyway, and if they didn't, they'd die in the
>> Silence. So those people would be dead anyway.
>
> They already would have killed the three people.
Yeah, you're right. I'm just saying, basically: As horrible as it might be
for the good guys to kill three people, if the bad guys win, those three
people- ALONG with everyone else- would be dead anyway. So as far as I see it,
there IS no choice... Killing those three people is a necessity.
>After your Heart/Soul Crystal is lost, you are dead, you have
>no Heart/Soul, so you are dead.
Yes, you're right..
>S
>P
>O
>I
>L
>E
>R
>S
>P
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>E
>
> Haruka and Michiru died after their Crystals/Talismans were
>removed. Pluto was never reincarnated, so she had her
>Talisman outside her body.
Oh, of COURSE! That's why she didn't have to have it removed! She still had
it from last time!
>> >This is a horrible situation to be in, particularly for two
>> >people with the sensitivities Haruka and Michiru have,
>>
>> Not too mention that they're 15! Can you imagine having to
>> make choices like that at that age?
>
> I thought that they were at least 16.
Well, remember they're the same age as Usagi... And yes, when we meet them,
they're 16, but I think they were probably 15 when they started looking. Can
anyone confirm/deny this?
And even if they were 16 when they started, it's the same thing...
>Chad Gayman/Crimsonjacket
Catherine Johnson.
James Helferty
S
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!
goraion wrote:
>
> How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in Sailormoon in terms
> of:
>
> 1. Relationships with other characters
Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are gay. At the beginning, Sailor
Pluto and Sailor Saturn don't really have any friends.
> 2. Personality
Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are pigheaded, self-righteous, arrogant
fools who think that, because they're a little bit stronger than the
inners, that they're better suited to the job the inners have been doing
for the last few years. Never mind that the inners are collectively
stronger than the outers. Never mind the fact that the outers are
intruding on inner territory. Never mind that the outers didn't do
their job in R of keeping the aliens out of inner space. Never mind
that they're a bunch of righteous rich kids who think they can do
whatever the hell they want to achieve their goals. They're the best
ones for the job. You'll be hearing that argument a lot from the
resident Haruka and Michiru lovers.. Ź_Ź;;
> 3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
They're supposed to be guarding the solar system against attacks from
outside the solar system. Instead, they suddenly decide that it'd be
better if they come to Earth, and screw everything up on the inners.
<rant> After all, if they hadn't returned to Earth, there never would've
been the problem of Mistress 9, etc.. </rant>
> By watching the Sailormoon S series, I get the impression that the
> personalities of Sailorneptune and Sailoruranus are insensitive, especially
> the episode where Haruka took Usagi's transformation brooch by force and
> threaten to kill her if she interfere. Or another when Haruka and Michiru
> ignored Sailormoon when she found out that they are Neptune and Uranus.
I'd tell you, but then I'd be accused of being an insensitive jerk who
was hiding behind his homophobia and not seeing the facts clearly.
James
..who's being discriminated against, I ask..
--
http://wabakimi.carleton.ca/~jhelfert/
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TCurryFan
>S SPOILERS!!
>
>S
>P
>O
>I
>L
>E
>R
>S
>!
>!
>
>
>
>
>goraion wrote:
>>
>> How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in
>> Sailormoon in terms
>> of:
>>
>> 1. Relationships with other characters
>
>Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are gay.
You say this as if this defines their entire relatrionships with other
characters.. Wow...
>> 2. Personality
>
>Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are pigheaded,
>self-righteous, arrogant fools who think that, because they're
>a little bit stronger than the inners, that they're better suited to
>the job the inners have been doing for the last few years.
Nani? They're doing an ENTIRELY different job than the Inners.
>Never mind that the inners are collectively stronger than the
>outers. Never mind the fact that the outers are intruding on
>inner territory.
No.. They're doing their job- looking for the Grail.
>Never mind that the outers didn't do their job in R of keeping
>the aliens out of inner space.
Well, they were probably not awakned when Ail and Ann showed up. And the Black
Moon fan and Co. come from our Solar System, so they wouldbn't fall into the
Outers job desciption. Oh, yes, and there was that pesky Grail they were
trying to find..
>Never mind that they're a bunch of righteous rich kids who
>think they can do whatever the hell they want to achieve
>their goals. They're the best ones for the job.
They're the ONLY ones for the job. They were GIVEN that job.
And, yes, they WILL do whatever they want to achieve their goal. if they can
save the whole planet, I think it's's worth a few hurt feelings, don't you?
>You'll be hearing that argument a lot from the resident >Haruka and Michiru
lovers.. Ź_Ź;;
Well, I wouldn't have to if you had your facts right.
>> 3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
>
>They're supposed to be guarding the solar system against
>attacks from outside the solar system. Instead, they suddenly
>decide that it'd be better if they come to Earth, and screw
>everything up on the inners.
Again, they were doing the job they were assigned. Get your facts right.
Oh, any by the way- the INNERS were getting in THEIR way, not vice versa.
>> By watching the Sailormoon S series, I get the impression
>> that the personalities of Sailorneptune and Sailoruranus are
>> insensitive, especially the episode where Haruka took
>> Usagi's transformation brooch by force and threaten to kill
>> her if she interfere. Or another when Haruka and Michiru
>> ignored Sailormoon when she found out that they are
>> Neptune and Uranus.
>
>I'd tell you, but then I'd be accused of being an insensitive
>jerk who was hiding behind his homophobia and not seeing
>the facts clearly.
Well, you're right about not getting your fact clearly. But I haven't accused
you of homohpbia.
>James
>..who's being discriminated against, I ask..
Hey, *you're* the one who made this about the gsexuality, not me, pal.
Frank White
>
>S SPOILERS!!
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
!
!
>goraion wrote:
>>
>> How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in Sailormoon in terms
>> of:
>>
>> 1. Relationships with other characters
>
>Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are gay. At the beginning, Sailor
>Pluto and Sailor Saturn don't really have any friends.
Puu has ChibiUsa. And based on their previous meeting, I'm sure
the Inners consider her a friend.
>> 2. Personality
>
>Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are pigheaded,
Can't disagree with this. Although I prefer "bullheaded".
>self-righteous,
On line, so far.
>arrogant
Yep, yep.
>fools
Nope. Haruka and Michiru are not deficient in sense or
understanding; they aren't unwise (much) and they aren't
easily duped, the usual definations of fool. Based on
all they know and believe at the start of the series, their
behavior is correct, even to trying to keep the Inners and
Usagi from interfering with what they are doing. The
problem is that as they gain more information on who
they keep locking horns with, they don't alter their
behavior accordingly.
> who think that, because they're a little bit stronger than the
>inners,
A LOT stronger than the Inners.
>that they're better suited to the job the inners have been doing
>for the last few years.
Inners' job is protecting the Princess. Outers' job is protecting
the Solar System. The two don't always match.
>Never mind that the inners are collectively
>stronger than the outers.
Something Tux points out to them.
>Never mind the fact that the outers are
>intruding on inner territory.
Vice versa, from the Outers' point of view.
>Never mind that the outers didn't do
>their job in R of keeping the aliens out of inner space.
Weren't awake yet. Probably didn't wake up until the end
of season R, when the rising threat of the Deathbusters
triggered their nightmares.
>Never mind
>that they're a bunch of righteous rich kids who think they can do
>whatever the hell they want to achieve their goals.
Do what ever they HAVE to do to achieve their goals. Said
goal being saving the Earth from destruction.
>They're the best
>ones for the job. You'll be hearing that argument a lot from the
>resident Haruka and Michiru lovers.. Ź_Ź;;
Actually, they WEREN'T the best ones for the job. But they
were convinced they were.
>> 3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
>
>They're supposed to be guarding the solar system against attacks from
>outside the solar system. Instead, they suddenly decide that it'd be
>better if they come to Earth, and screw everything up on the inners.
><rant> After all, if they hadn't returned to Earth, there never would've
>been the problem of Mistress 9, etc.. </rant>
What?
The threat of the Deathbusters started years before the Outers'
awakening, when Tau Ceti demons possessed Hotaru and her father.
It took a long time to come to fruition, but it would have
happened if the Outers had been there or not.
FW
TCurryFan
>In article <3644B811...@chat.carleton.ca>,
>jhel...@chat.carleton.ca says...
>> They're the best ones for the job. You'll be hearing that
>> argument a lot from the resident Haruka and Michiru
>> lovers.. Ź_Ź;;
>
>Actually, they WEREN'T the best ones for the job. But they
>were convinced they were.
Well, they might not have been the best, but that's the job they were given.
If they had tried to pass it to the Inners, the H&M haters would be accusing
them of being cowards.
the Icefalcon and his FFV and FFVII soundtracks
answer! Come on, minna-san -_^;
James Helferty wrote:
>
> S SPOILERS!!
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> !
> !
>
> goraion wrote:
> >
> > How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in Sailormoon in terms
> > of:
> >
> > 1. Relationships with other characters
>
> Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are gay.
Your point? It's not like they hit on the Inners all the time ...
and episode 92 doesn't count ;P
> At the beginning, Sailor Pluto and Sailor Saturn don't really have
> any friends.
Hotaru is possessed (cyborg in the manga, wasn't she? <raises
eyebrow> ) and Pluto has Chibi-Usa - or should I say, Puu
and Small Lady?
> > 2. Personality
>
> Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are pigheaded, self-righteous, arrogant
> fools who think that, because they're a little bit stronger than the
> inners, that they're better suited to the job the inners have been doing
> for the last few years.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaah ... <sits and stares at screen> You have defiled the
names of the True Senshi. You must die. -_^ Ermmmm ... let's see what
we have to say, shall we? Although I don't think it's fair to so ...
... ... *finally* classify them as such. Why do you say they're
pigheaded? And <wrestles with the typing for amoment> self-righteous?
And fools?
> Never mind that the inners are collectively stronger than the outers.
<cough> Are we counting Sailor Moon here? ... of course we are. That
kind of throws any comparison off balance. I mean ... Sailor Pluto
can [is forbidden to - will probably die if she] stop time. Sailor
Saturn can, to use a horribly hackneyed quote, destroy the world in
three words. Sailor Moon can contain DRR. ... Sailor Moon is arguably
the strongest Senshi there is (at least, in our solar system. I don't
know enough about Galaxia and any other Senshi out there to even
try to compare ^_^; ), and even so, including her with the rest of
the inners would make it a 5-4 contest, which isn't *fair* ^^;
But I think you see what I'm getting at ... ? Though the power
of both groups of Senshi is nothing to sneeze at. Why do you say
Mercury, Venus, Mars, and Jupiter have much more power than Saturn,
Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto?
> Never mind the fact that the outers are intruding on inner territory.
<blinks> Hm?
> Never mind that the outers didn't do their job in R of keeping the
> aliens out of inner space.
... ... well, if you want to look at it that way, where in seven
Shinto jigoku was Makoto for the fight with Jadite? I mean, Minako
has an *excuse*. She, at least, was in England. How long before S
has Michiru been aware of her identity as Neptune, again? (Really.
I don't remember ^^; But it wasn't all that long.) I don't think she
was even aware of being a Senshi 'til after the Dark Moon threat.
And she didn't bump into Haruka until later ... and we know that
Michiru was there when Haruka first became Uranus again ...
> Never mind that they're a bunch of righteous rich kids who think they
> can do whatever the hell they want to achieve their goals.
Errrrrr ... may I remind you their goals are the salvation of
mankind? ^^; I'm not saying that Haruka and Michiru were
necessarily 100% right in their actions (wellll ... I *am* a
little biased ^^; ), but taken from Kenobi's certain point of view -
not even being that liberal, their seemingly self-centered attitudes
and apparent indifference for human death can be argued as maybe
not the best humanitarian effort on the planet, but certainly not
*wrong*. They were looking for the Talismans before the daimons could
get their hands on them, which as we know would put the Grail in
Pharoah 90's hands rather and abruptly bring the Silence to Earth.
... they needed to find the Talismans. If three people had to
die to prevent the most royal screwing-over this planet has seen
since the end of Serenity's kingdom, then so be it. Better three
than three billion almost twice over. As someone else has mentioned,
they thought that Usagi and the other Inners were getting in their
way - they probably didn't know what was going on, and so thought
that what h&m were doing was wrong. Didn't they try to prevent
or at least protest the taking of people's heart crystals to see
if they were the Talismans? If the Outers thought that what *they*
were doing was right - at least keep in mind they had good intentions,
if not good execution - then the Inners' obstruction of those means
would be wrong.
> They're the best ones for the job. You'll be hearing that argument
> a lot from the resident Haruka and Michiru lovers.. Ź_Ź;;
<grins sheepishly and points up> Although, you do have a point there,
with that "best for the job" crack ... ... -_^
> > 3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
>
> They're supposed to be guarding the solar system against attacks from
> outside the solar system. Instead, they suddenly decide that it'd be
> better if they come to Earth, and screw everything up on the inners.
... ... <blink> Um ... weren't the Death Busters and Tomoe kind of ...
on ... Earth? ^^; And weren't they in league with P-90, by definition
an external threat since he was from ... ah ... Tau Ceti? And they
certainly didn't *intend* to mess with the Inners.
> <rant> After all, if they hadn't returned to Earth, there never would've
> been the problem of Mistress 9, etc.. </rant>
See above. And Hotaru had no choice about being on Earth ... she was
kind of born there (in this life at least), being Sailor Saturn
notwithstanding. And Tomoe, possessed by an alien *before* Michiru
remembered Neptune - after all, wasn't it the threat of Tomoe, the
daimons, the Witches that caused her to re-activate as a Senshi? -
kind of set off the events of the S season, not H&M ... they were
just doing what they thought would best defend from the Silence.
<s>
--
-|-E the Icefalcon
<going ahead and posting ... it's kind of long, kind of ranty, and
I don't feel like re-reading it again. I'm used to getting six/seven
hours of sleep ^_^; >
Scortia with her Jupiter Fanbook and Plushie!
James Helferty wrote:
> S SPOILERS!!
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> !
> !
>
> goraion wrote:
<snip>
>
> > 2. Personality
>
> Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are pigheaded, self-righteous, arrogant
> fools who think that, because they're a little bit stronger than the
> inners, that they're better suited to the job the inners have been doing
> for the last few years. Never mind that the inners are collectively
> stronger than the outers. Never mind the fact that the outers are
> intruding on inner territory. Never mind that the outers didn't do
> their job in R of keeping the aliens out of inner space. Never mind
> that they're a bunch of righteous rich kids who think they can do
> whatever the hell they want to achieve their goals. They're the best
> ones for the job. You'll be hearing that argument a lot from the
> resident Haruka and Michiru lovers.. Ź_Ź;;
Boy are you gonna get flamed!...^-^
--
--Scortia-chan
Surprised by the increasing Haruka and Michiru addicts in the
newsgroup....Michiru, you shall be defended! ^-^
David Johnston
>
> "goraion <non...@nospam.clam.rutgers.edu>" said:
>
> >By watching the Sailormoon S series, I get the impression
> >that the personalities of Sailorneptune and Sailoruranus are
> >insensitive, especially the episode where Haruka took
> >Usagi's transformation brooch by force and threaten to kill
> >her if she interfere.
>
> interfered, she'd die... Maybe they were afraid the bad guys would kill her?
That makes more sense. The ambiguity would be deliberate of course, since just
about every good guy in the series is introduced with hints they might be a bad
guy. Except Tux who sort of yo-yos between good and bad to jerk Usagi's emotions
around.
mke...@ycp.edu
James Helferty <jhel...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
> S SPOILERS!!
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> !
> !
>
> goraion wrote:
>
>
> > 3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
>
> They're supposed to be guarding the solar system against attacks from
> outside the solar system. Instead, they suddenly decide that it'd be
> better if they come to Earth, and screw everything up on the inners.
> <rant> After all, if they hadn't returned to Earth, there never would've
> been the problem of Mistress 9, etc.. </rant>
Oh, and I suppose the inners responsible for Queen Beryl and the Dark Kingdom?
After all, if the inners weren't such weaklings, they might have actually
destroy her, them, and Metallia back in the Silver Millenium. But no, they
didn't. So all the DK problems are all due to the failure of the inners during
the Silver Millenium.
Does that make sense to you? Besides, DUH, MP90 comes from OUTSIDE the Solar
System.
> > By watching the Sailormoon S series, I get the impression that the
> > personalities of Sailorneptune and Sailoruranus are insensitive, especially
> > the episode where Haruka took Usagi's transformation brooch by force and
> > threaten to kill her if she interfere. Or another when Haruka and Michiru
> > ignored Sailormoon when she found out that they are Neptune and Uranus.
>
> I'd tell you, but then I'd be accused of being an insensitive jerk who
> was hiding behind his homophobia and not seeing the facts clearly.
Insenstive? Haruka HATES what she is doing and HATES herself. Have you ever
seen episode 106? That shows the old Haruka so much...the same Haruka who
would run out to save people. Why, even in S episodes Haruka has started to
run out to save people.
As it has been said before, they are in a damned if you do, damned if you
don't situation. They want to live a happy normal life, but they can't. In
order to protect their own sanity, they will act cold and cruel...but it's
just an act.
Tim
>
> How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in Sailormoon in terms
> of:
>
> 1. Relationships with other characters
>
>
> 3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
>
> personalities of Sailorneptune and Sailoruranus are insensitive, especially
> the episode where Haruka took Usagi's transformation brooch by force and
> threaten to kill her if she interfere. Or another when Haruka and Michiru
> ignored Sailormoon when she found out that they are Neptune and Uranus.
< insert semi-shameless plug ;p >
apologies if anyoen else has posted this, but there's some write-ups
that cover these topics at the following site.
tim nolan
< who thinks that greenbeans did a very good job here ^_^ >
Tim
> Just once, I'd like to see something were the ones with the more ruthless
> methods were actually right...
as someone pointed out in an earlier discussion on haruka...
it's impossible in shoujo anime for anyone besides the heroine
to win, regardless of any other circumstances. in real life, it's
quite possible that michiru and haruka's attitudes might have
led to a victory, but it's impossible for them to win in a
shoujo anime with usagi as the main character.
tim
David Johnston
> >> >This is a horrible situation to be in, particularly for two
> >> >people with the sensitivities Haruka and Michiru have,
> >>
> >> Not too mention that they're 15! Can you imagine having to
> >> make choices like that at that age?
> >
> > I thought that they were at least 16.
>
> Well, remember they're the same age as Usagi... And yes, when we meet
They are not the same age as Usagi which is part of the reason
they copped an attitude, even though Venus had way more actual
experience than they did (not counting the Silver Millenium)
them,
> they're 16, but I think they were probably 15 when they started looking. Can
> anyone confirm/deny this?
> And even if they were 16 when they started, it's the same thing...
>
> >Chad Gayman/Crimsonjacket
>
TCurryFan
I understand that. But in almost EVERYTHING you see, the soft, fuzzy, "we have
to [and can] save everyone" person usually ends up being right, while the cold,
tough, "people are gonna have to die for the greater" good person is shown as
wrong. I wasn't tlaking about just in SM, I meant in the media in general.
>tim
Catherine Johnson
TCurryFan
>TCurryFan wrote:
>
>> >> >This is a horrible situation to be in, particularly for two
>> >> >people with the sensitivities Haruka and Michiru
>> >> >have,
>> >>
>> >> Not too mention that they're 15! Can you imagine
>> >> having to make choices like that at that age?
>> >
>> > I thought that they were at least 16.
>>
>> Well, remember they're the same age as Usagi...
>
>They are not the same age as Usagi
Yes, they are. Check their birth dates in the FAQ. They're in a different
*grade* (the first year of hugh school), but they are the same age.
Catherine Johnson.
James Helferty
>
> <glances at title> Why, they're better, of course! That's the obvious
> answer! Come on, minna-san -_^;
...
Sure got quiet in here awfully quick.. ^_-
> James Helferty wrote:
> >
> > S SPOILERS!!
> >
> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> > S
> > !
> > !
> >
> > goraion wrote:
> > >
> > > How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in Sailormoon in terms
> > > of:
> > >
> > > 1. Relationships with other characters
> >
> > Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are gay.
>
> Your point? It's not like they hit on the Inners all the time ...
> and episode 92 doesn't count ;P
Why not? ^_^;
> > At the beginning, Sailor Pluto and Sailor Saturn don't really have
> > any friends.
>
> Hotaru is possessed (cyborg in the manga, wasn't she? <raises
> eyebrow> ) and Pluto has Chibi-Usa - or should I say, Puu
> and Small Lady?
[sweatdrop] The original poster was asking about the anime, not the
manga. I didn't want to confuse...
But you're right. Pluto has ChibiMoon. [shudder]
> > > 2. Personality
> >
> > Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are pigheaded, self-righteous, arrogant
> > fools who think that, because they're a little bit stronger than the
> > inners, that they're better suited to the job the inners have been doing
> > for the last few years.
>
> Aaaaaaaaaaaaah ... <sits and stares at screen> You have defiled the
> names of the True Senshi. You must die. -_^ Ermmmm ... let's see what
> we have to say, shall we? Although I don't think it's fair to so ...
> ... ... *finally* classify them as such. Why do you say they're
> pigheaded? And <wrestles with the typing for amoment> self-righteous?
> And fools?
Pigheaded -- okay, bullheaded would probably be a better word for it
(thanks, Frank). They don't want to change their minds, no matter
what. Their way is the best way, and there's no other ways about it.
Self-righteous -- Our way is right, ours is the only way, you are
inferior and incapable of doing what we're doing.. All arguments they
used against the inner senshi helping them.
Fools -- Usagi is revealed to be Sailor Moon.. and then Venus shows up
in a REALLY bad Sailor Moon outfit--without any odango, shouting
different attack phrases, talking about a disguise--and they don't catch
on..? I'd say they were fooled. Thus, they're fools. ;)
> > Never mind that the inners are collectively stronger than the outers.
>
> <cough> Are we counting Sailor Moon here? ... of course we are. That
> kind of throws any comparison off balance. I mean ... Sailor Pluto
> can [is forbidden to - will probably die if she] stop time. Sailor
> Saturn can, to use a horribly hackneyed quote, destroy the world in
> three words. Sailor Moon can contain DRR. ... Sailor Moon is arguably
> the strongest Senshi there is (at least, in our solar system. I don't
> know enough about Galaxia and any other Senshi out there to even
> try to compare ^_^; ), and even so, including her with the rest of
> the inners would make it a 5-4 contest, which isn't *fair* ^^;
> But I think you see what I'm getting at ... ? Though the power
> of both groups of Senshi is nothing to sneeze at. Why do you say
> Mercury, Venus, Mars, and Jupiter have much more power than Saturn,
> Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto?
Saturn doesn't know she's Saturn at the first. Pluto's not even around
90% of the time, since she's supposed to be guarding the time gate. And
Neptune and Uranus didn't exactly pose much of a threat to the inners,
when they finally had their climatic battle, ne..?
> > Never mind the fact that the outers are intruding on inner territory.
>
> <blinks> Hm?
Inners -> protect princess and her court
Outers -> protect solar system
Sailor Moon wants no one to be sacrificed to find the grail. The inners
have to protect Moon as she tries to save these people. The outers,
meanwhile, should be protecting the solar system from attack--doesn't
this imply that they should be keeping others from entering the solar
system? Not irradicating the threat that's already there. They're
here, fine. Let the inners take care of the immediate threat. But the
outers are there to protect against the long-term threat; the arrival of
more.
> > Never mind that the outers didn't do their job in R of keeping the
> > aliens out of inner space.
>
> ... ... well, if you want to look at it that way, where in seven
> Shinto jigoku was Makoto for the fight with Jadite? I mean, Minako
> has an *excuse*. She, at least, was in England. How long before S
> has Michiru been aware of her identity as Neptune, again? (Really.
> I don't remember ^^; But it wasn't all that long.) I don't think she
> was even aware of being a Senshi 'til after the Dark Moon threat.
> And she didn't bump into Haruka until later ... and we know that
> Michiru was there when Haruka first became Uranus again ...
But how about Pluto? Shouldn't she have been pulling double duty until
the others returned? Heck, she KNOWS this is going to happen--so why
doesn't she awaken Haruka and Michiru, tell them what the heck's gonna
happen, and get on with it..?!
> > Never mind that they're a bunch of righteous rich kids who think they
> > can do whatever the hell they want to achieve their goals.
>
> Errrrrr ... may I remind you their goals are the salvation of
> mankind? ^^; I'm not saying that Haruka and Michiru were
> necessarily 100% right in their actions (wellll ... I *am* a
> little biased ^^; ), but taken from Kenobi's certain point of view -
> not even being that liberal, their seemingly self-centered attitudes
> and apparent indifference for human death can be argued as maybe
> not the best humanitarian effort on the planet, but certainly not
> *wrong*. They were looking for the Talismans before the daimons could
> get their hands on them, which as we know would put the Grail in
> Pharoah 90's hands rather and abruptly bring the Silence to Earth.
But why? Because they heard voices in their heads, telling them that
the silence was coming? Hell, I get the same thing right before an
assignment is due, and I don't go around knocking people over with water
and playing with a henshin wand.
But their humanitarian effort is NOT where I see the big problem..
> ... they needed to find the Talismans. If three people had to
> die to prevent the most royal screwing-over this planet has seen
> since the end of Serenity's kingdom, then so be it. Better three
> than three billion almost twice over. As someone else has mentioned,
> they thought that Usagi and the other Inners were getting in their
> way - they probably didn't know what was going on, and so thought
> that what h&m were doing was wrong. Didn't they try to prevent
> or at least protest the taking of people's heart crystals to see
> if they were the Talismans? If the Outers thought that what *they*
> were doing was right - at least keep in mind they had good intentions,
> if not good execution - then the Inners' obstruction of those means
> would be wrong.
So let's draw an analogy. A child is being born, and the new doctor on
staff does the delivery with an experienced nurse by his/her side. The
baby comes out, the cord is snipped, and then the doctor slaps the
baby. Hard. The nurse protests, saying that it isn't necessary to slap
so hard, but the doctor points out that you have to slap hard if you
want results. If the baby develops brain damage, is what the nurse said
wrong, because the doctor had good intentions..?!
> > They're the best ones for the job. You'll be hearing that argument
> > a lot from the resident Haruka and Michiru lovers.. Ź_Ź;;
>
> <grins sheepishly and points up> Although, you do have a point there,
> with that "best for the job" crack ... ... -_^
[wince] I had that one coming, I suppose..
> > > 3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
> >
> > They're supposed to be guarding the solar system against attacks from
> > outside the solar system. Instead, they suddenly decide that it'd be
> > better if they come to Earth, and screw everything up on the inners.
>
> ... ... <blink> Um ... weren't the Death Busters and Tomoe kind of ...
> on ... Earth? ^^; And weren't they in league with P-90, by definition
> an external threat since he was from ... ah ... Tau Ceti? And they
> certainly didn't *intend* to mess with the Inners.
Like I said above, if the outers had concerned themselves with defending
against external threats and ignored what was already there, then things
would've been fine. The enemy never would've found the talismans. The
grail never would've had the possibility of falling into enemy hands.
No one would've had to suffer.
But because the outers were on Earth, the professor and his ilk kept
"reading" that the holders were on Earth, putting everyone on Earth at
risk.
> > <rant> After all, if they hadn't returned to Earth, there never would've
> > been the problem of Mistress 9, etc.. </rant>
>
> See above. And Hotaru had no choice about being on Earth ... she was
> kind of born there (in this life at least), being Sailor Saturn
> notwithstanding. And Tomoe, possessed by an alien *before* Michiru
> remembered Neptune - after all, wasn't it the threat of Tomoe, the
> daimons, the Witches that caused her to re-activate as a Senshi? -
> kind of set off the events of the S season, not H&M ... they were
> just doing what they thought would best defend from the Silence.
So they decided to do something directly to prevent the problem instead
of doing their job that they were assigned to do in the case of this
possibility? I'm more inclined to believe that the purpose of Uranus
and Neptune was to defend the solar system from external attacks while
the inners looked after the present threat.
Besides, if they were supposed to be the ones looking after this current
enemy... why aren't they all working on it? Shouldn't Pluto be actively
helping them, instead of /sliding/ back and forth from the TimeGate
every once in a while? I'm sure she'd have some good intel for them,
considering the forknowledge she'd be able to attain..
> -|-E the Icefalcon
> <going ahead and posting ... it's kind of long, kind of ranty, and
> I don't feel like re-reading it again. I'm used to getting six/seven
> hours of sleep ^_^; >
You too, huh? Last night, a bunch of us ended up taking a walk at
roughly 3:00am. Dang but it was cold..
James
..dum de dum..
James Helferty
>
> TCurryFan wrote:
>
> > Just once, I'd like to see something were the ones with the more ruthless
> > methods were actually right...
>
> as someone pointed out in an earlier discussion on haruka...
>
> it's impossible in shoujo anime for anyone besides the heroine
> to win, regardless of any other circumstances. in real life, it's
> quite possible that michiru and haruka's attitudes might have
> led to a victory, but it's impossible for them to win in a
> shoujo anime with usagi as the main character.
A short lived victory, I'd wager. Ruthless victories tend to bring
about reprocussions that last long into the future. You'd have the
villains union suing for undue force in their extrication. Consider the
paperwork that'd result from the long legal battles.. The appeal
process would probably last well into the age of Crystal Tokyo..!
James
..Judge Moon..?
Erin Gayle with her Beauty Change Uranus doll ^_^
few other things I want to point out.
On Sat, 07 Nov 1998 16:13:53 -0500, James Helferty
<jhel...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
>S SPOILERS!!
>
>S
>P
>O
>I
>L
>E
>R
>S
>!
>!
>
>
>
>
>goraion wrote:
>>
>> How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in Sailormoon in terms
>> of:
>>
>> 1. Relationships with other characters
>
>Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are gay. At the beginning, Sailor
>Pluto and Sailor Saturn don't really have any friends.
Sailor Neptune and Sailor Uranus are in a loving relationship,
something you obviously have trouble with since every second post you
make you mention you're homophobic. Fine, but shut up about it for a
change.
Anyway, Haruka and Michiru are in love with each other, but because of
the nature of their mission they are reluctant to get close to anyone
else because that person might get hurt.
Setsuna has a very lonely post, and is friends with Small Lady.
Hotaru is an invalid and doesn't socialize, but makes friends with
Chibiusa because she admires her.
>> 2. Personality
>
>Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are pigheaded, self-righteous, arrogant
>fools
They are confident, a bit arrogant (but would you not be if the fate
of the world depended on you?), but they are not self-righteous and
they are not stupid.
>who think that, because they're a little bit stronger than the
>inners, that they're better suited to the job the inners have been doing
>for the last few years.
When they received their mission, (which might I add is completely
different than that of the inners because the inners never heard of
the talismans before) they had no idea there were other sailor senshi.
So how could they usurp the inners' role?
>Never mind that the inners are collectively
>stronger than the outers.
Inners outnumber the outers, and the inners have the advantage of
Sailor Moon, so duh. Strength has nothing to do with anything.
>Never mind the fact that the outers are
>intruding on inner territory.
The outers are doing their job, a specific job mind you, while the
inners are just stumbling along trying to figure out what's happening.
>Never mind that the outers didn't do
>their job in R of keeping the aliens out of inner space.
Do I really need to remind you that the outers were never even thought
of until the third season of the manga, so therefore they did not
exist in R?
>Never mind
>that they're a bunch of righteous rich kids who think they can do
>whatever the hell they want to achieve their goals.
No, they think they have to do what they can to complete their
mission. Remember the part about saving the world? They are given no
reason to think that anyone else can do the job better than they can.
>They're the best
>ones for the job. You'll be hearing that argument a lot from the
>resident Haruka and Michiru lovers.. ¬_¬;;
They're the most logical choice for the job. In the real world, they
would be the best for the job.
>> 3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
>
>They're supposed to be guarding the solar system against attacks from
>outside the solar system. Instead, they suddenly decide that it'd be
>better if they come to Earth, and screw everything up on the inners.
><rant> After all, if they hadn't returned to Earth, there never would've
>been the problem of Mistress 9, etc.. </rant>
In that case, then why should the outers have helped against the
aliens in R? It's all the inners' fault for Queen Beryl attacking and
the aliens draining so much energy.
The outers were trying to *stop* Mistress 9 from awakening. Thanks to
Sailor Moon, she awoke anyway.
>> By watching the Sailormoon S series, I get the impression that the
>> personalities of Sailorneptune and Sailoruranus are insensitive, especially
>> the episode where Haruka took Usagi's transformation brooch by force and
>> threaten to kill her if she interfere. Or another when Haruka and Michiru
>> ignored Sailormoon when she found out that they are Neptune and Uranus.
>
>I'd tell you, but then I'd be accused of being an insensitive jerk who
>was hiding behind his homophobia and not seeing the facts clearly.
Insenstive kind of fits, but I think narrow-minded fits better. Jerk
fits. Homophobic, who cares? It doesn't have to colour your every
opinion in life. And no, you're not seeing the facts clearly. Hell,
I doubt you can even see the facts.
>James
>..who's being discriminated against, I ask..
God, you're a hypocrite. If you're so persecuted, then why can't you
have a little more depth and understanding towards others? Do you
even like *any* of the Sailor Moon characters?
James, normally I enjoy reading your posts. But this has got to be
the more ignorant thing you have ever posted.
Erin Gayle
http://members.tripod.com/~Lasciate/home.html
On undernet IRC: Lasciate On ICQ, UIN: 3711756
Moonie code: SM:5+ F:sUr++Ou+:vNh++Ti D:aPe>-
X:a75r|97s|76d:m49r P:a20:s58:eGBr:hOrBrL+++:x:r:+|-
C Wong
Erin Gayle with her Beauty Change Uranus doll ^_^ <lasc...@quadrant.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 07 Nov 1998 16:13:53 -0500, James Helferty
><jhel...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
>>S SPOILERS!!
>>
>>S
>>P
>>O
>>I
>>L
>>E
>>R
>>S
>>!
>>!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>goraion wrote:
>>>
>>> How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in Sailormoon in terms
>>> of:
>>>
>>> 1. Relationships with other characters
>>
>>Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are gay. At the beginning, Sailor
>>Pluto and Sailor Saturn don't really have any friends.
>
>Sailor Neptune and Sailor Uranus are in a loving relationship,
>something you obviously have trouble with since every second post you
>make you mention you're homophobic. Fine, but shut up about it for a
>change.
I wouldn't call him homophobic yet. He does seem quite obsessed
with the fact that they're gay. The topic was "Relationships with
other characters" and "how the outer senshi differ from the
inner senshi". I'm not sure why he would think that being gay is
really all that related to the topic unless he's obssesed with
the fact that they're gay.
Wednesday
TCurryFan <tcur...@aol.com.net> wrote:
>"Crimsonjacket <lga...@ix.netcom.com>" said:
>>After your Heart/Soul Crystal is lost, you are dead, you have
>>no Heart/Soul, so you are dead.
>
>Yes, you're right..
>
>>P
>>O
>>I
>>L
>>E
>>R
>>S
>>A
>>C
>>E
>>
>> Haruka and Michiru died after their Crystals/Talismans were
>>removed. Pluto was never reincarnated, so she had her
>>Talisman outside her body.
>
>Oh, of COURSE! That's why she didn't have to have it removed! She still had
>it from last time!
So the Talisman is your appendix or something?
"C'mere, Chibi-Usa. I'll show you my pickled Talisman...it's in this jar."
--
Cross the line and you're electrocuted. wedn...@chiark.greenend.org.uk.
"I named the desktop at work 'Chibiusa' because it misbehaves so often and
I like to smack it around. ^_-" -- Neo Sailor Khyron, alt.fan.sailor-moon
TCurryFan
>In article <36463fe7...@news.quadrant.net>,
>Erin Gayle with her Beauty Change Uranus doll ^_^
><lasc...@quadrant.net> wrote:
>> Sailor Neptune and Sailor Uranus are in a loving
>> relationship, something you obviously have trouble with
>> since every second post you make you mention you're
>> homophobic. Fine, but shut up about it for a change.
>
>I wouldn't call him homophobic yet.
He's made plenty of posts- just not in this thread- that display his feelings
about homosexuals. And those feelings are not positive. I'd call that
homophobia.
TCurryFan
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
F
O
R
S
My friend brought up an interesting point to me tonight...
If Naptune amd Uranus are so bad, why do they have the pure hearts that HOLD
THE TALISMANS?!
Korb
>Ohayo, minna!
>
>S
>P
>O
>I
>L
>E
>R
>S
>O
>R
>S
>
>My friend brought up an interesting point to me tonight...
>If Naptune amd Uranus are so bad, why do they have the pure hearts that
HOLD
>THE TALISMANS?!
Because their quest for the talismans has so engulfed their lives that it is
all they can think about. They have, quite literally, put their hearts into
their search for the talismans.
Korb (tired, must go to bed, you should too!!)
------------------------------
Just your average 17-year old NT Admin and Webmaster
http://www.teleport.com/~dorr/
do...@teleport.com.ick.spam
*** Remove ".ick.spam" from e-mail address to reply ***
------------------------------
MoonieCode (1.10.12)
<http://www.geocities.com/tokyo/towers/7933/mooniecode.txt>
SM:5-[7] F:sVe>+[+++]Ou>:vEu<Fi>:aDi>+Mm:pNh D:sCh<-:aPe:pR1
X:a0r|[R2][S]SS*1[*2]+++|[Cl]R1[R2]d:m0r|1s O:d--:s:o+[++]:a-:h+[+++]
P:a+:s59:w:f:eBg:hBr:t-:cWh:y:r+|
Trixie
<jhel...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
>> >
>> > S SPOILERS!!
>> >
>> > S
>> > P
>> > O
>> > I
>> > L
>> > E
>> > R
>> > S
>> > !
>> > !
>> >
>But why? Because they heard voices in their heads, telling them that
>the silence was coming? Hell, I get the same thing right before an
>assignment is due, and I don't go around knocking people over with water
>and playing with a henshin wand.
>
You do? That's worrisome... Maybe you should have someone check that out.
O.k., Tuxedo Kamen had dreams, the inner senshi had talking cats... this
is Sailor Moon... dreams, talking cats and even voices in the head are
reliable sources. Plus, a henshin wand that lets you knock people over
with water is kind of confirmation that this whole sailor senshi thing is
real, don't you think?
Trixie
TCurryFan
>TCurryFan wrote in message ><19981109034501...@ng27.aol.com>...
>> Ohayo, minna!
>>
>> S
>> P
>> O
>> I
>> L
>> E
>> R
>> S
>> F
>> O
>> R
>> S
>>
>> My friend brought up an interesting point to me tonight...
>> If Naptune amd Uranus are so bad, why do they have the
>> pure hearts that HOLD THE TALISMANS?!
>
>Because their quest for the talismans has so engulfed their
>lives that it is all they can think about.
Is that why they hung out with Usagi-tachi? Went to concerts? Took art
classes? I see no evidence that the talismans were all they could think about.
Yes, it was a MAJOR part of their lives, but then, if you were given the job
of saving the world, it would probably become a big part of your life, too.
But there's plenty of evidence that they did other things, as well.
>They have, quite literally, put their hearts into their search
>for the talismans.
Sorry, I don't see it that way. Besides, they had the talismans their whole
lives, even before they knew about it.
>Korb (tired, must go to bed, you should too!!)
Catherine Johnson.
TCurryFan
>In article <19981107132610...@ng34.aol.com>,
>TCurryFan <tcur...@aol.com.net> wrote:
>>
>> Oh, of COURSE! That's why she didn't have to have it
>> removed! She still had it from last time!
>
>So the Talisman is your appendix or something?
Ummm.. Well...
>"C'mere, Chibi-Usa. I'll show you my pickled Talisman...it's in
>this jar."
BWAHAHAH!!! That's cute. ^_^
Korb
Well it's the only answer I could come up with when I asked myself the same
question. Besides it was never stated that the purest hearts held the
talismans, only that they were inside pure hearts. Also all of those places
you mentioned they went, are the kind of places where pure hearted people
might be: pure-hearted musicians, pure-hearted sculptors, pure-hearted
Sailor Senshi ^_^.
Korb
JeSquirt9
in>
>But why? Because they heard voices in their heads, telling them that
>the silence was coming?
Forgive me for going a bit off-topic here, but I'm hoping someone here can help
me out... I haven't seen S yet, but I know that Rei has dreams about the
Silence. How does she react to them? Does she do anything about it?
**Lily**
Really wishing I could talk my mom into that $60 for S subs...
Moonie Code (1.10.12) SM:5+ F:sUr+[+]Tx+Ve> : vNe+Bl+[+]Es : aAr>Na D:vAn-Ru
X:a | s[R2]++ | dClR1[R2]++[+] O:d[-] !s<[+] o+[+] h+ P:a16 : s53 : eBDg :
hBlD++[+] : x?
Revolutionary Girl Utena
> In article <19981109144259...@ng08.aol.com>,
> tcur...@aol.com.net (TCurryFan) wrote:
> > "Korb <spamsuck...@yahoo.com>" said:
> >
> > >TCurryFan wrote in message ><19981109034501...@ng27.aol.com>...
> > >> Ohayo, minna!
> > >>
> > >> S
> > >> P
> > >> O
> > >> I
> > >> L
> > >> E
> > >> R
> > >> S
> > >> F
> > >> O
> > >> R
> > >> S
>
> > >They have, quite literally, put their hearts into their search
> > >for the talismans.
> >
> > Sorry, I don't see it that way. Besides, they had the talismans their whole
> > lives, even before they knew about it.
>
> Ok, here's a question. What is one of the talisman holders had died
> BEFORE they knew it existed? Like, let's say Haruka somehow died at
> the age of six. Since she had it then, what would have become of the
> talisman?
Since she's a senshi, she would have been reincarnated...again. And the
new Uranus, whoever she might have been, would have had the Talisman.
Wow. Can you imagine the wrath of a nine-year old Ten'ou? Kawaii. ^_^
*-Gally-*
imagining teenaged Michiru babysitting chibi Haruka-chan. ^_^;;
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Moonie Code (1.10.12)
SM:5+ F:sVe>+[+]Ur>+[+]:vAiAl:aAr:p[S][*] D:sNe<Ta-:vKa-Tn-
X:a61s++|66d+:m16r|7s O:d[-]:s-:o-:a-:h
P:a20:s56w:f:eG:hBlD+:t-:cWhNA:x:r+|- jlo...@emory.edu
gbe...@kfalls.net
i leave for *one* weekend and y'all start up a thread like this.. ara.. i'll
never catch up <shakes head at self before rolling up her sleeves and digging
in>
> > James Helferty wrote:
> > >
> > > S SPOILERS!!
woo! s season :D
> > > S
> > > P
> > > O
> > > I
> > > L
> > > E
> > > R
> > > S
> > > !
> > > !
> > >
> > > goraion wrote:
> > > >
> > > > How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in Sailormoon in
terms
> > > > of:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Relationships with other characters
> > >
> > > Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are gay.
smart alick..
> > Your point? It's not like they hit on the Inners all the time ...
> > and episode 92 doesn't count ;P
>
> Why not? ^_^;
because usagi turns around and glomps on michiru in an episode following that
one :P
<snip manga referrence>
> > > > 2. Personality
> > >
> > > Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are pigheaded, self-righteous, arrogant
> > > fools who think that, because they're a little bit stronger than the
> > > inners, that they're better suited to the job the inners have been doing
> > > for the last few years.
james-kun! you wound me right here <points to her heart> and i thought you'd
cared.. <laughs> just joshin' ya..
> > Aaaaaaaaaaaaah ... <sits and stares at screen> You have defiled the
> > names of the True Senshi. You must die. -_^ Ermmmm ... let's see what
> > we have to say, shall we? Although I don't think it's fair to so ...
> > ... ... *finally* classify them as such. Why do you say they're
> > pigheaded? And <wrestles with the typing for amoment> self-righteous?
> > And fools?
agreed on all but the dying part. he still serves a purpose as a chibi-usa
hater ;P~
> Pigheaded -- okay, bullheaded would probably be a better word for it
> (thanks, Frank). They don't want to change their minds, no matter
> what. Their way is the best way, and there's no other ways about it.
fair enough.. but what part of the series are you refering to this attitude,
pre-talismans or afterwards. before the talismans, they didn't know the
inners, so who's to tell them they're wrong? if someone came up to you out
of no where and told you to stop jaywalking on a non-busy street even though
the next intersection was a quarter mile down, would you do it? or tell them
what you're doin' doesn't concern them and to bug off? honestly, i can tell
you what my answer would be. if it's not their business, why should they give
a flying cow? until they can *prove* their interest in the subject at hand,
keep out of it. watchers of the s season have the advantage of *already
knowing* the inners interest in seeing the outers change their tactics, but
forget that the outers wouldn't know it yet.
as for after the talismans are discovered, the series turns into more of a
hotaru/chibi-usa friendship thing. a defense could be built about the level
of leadership the outers were expecting and *not* receiving in usagi. i
don't blame them at all for having shaken confidence in the type of
leadership usagi offers. again, it's a case of the show viewer knowing that
she is more capable then she displays because we are familiar with her past
experiences, but the outers would have no knowledge of this. from only
seeing usagi's bumbling about in day to day life, i probably would have
dumped her off in a lake and gone on my own way after the tea ceremony
episode :P the outers should be commended for their patience and sticking
with it (as much as they did.. of couse.. this is coming from a bean with
very little patience for incompedent people ^^; )
> Self-righteous -- Our way is right, ours is the only way, you are
> inferior and incapable of doing what we're doing.. All arguments they
> used against the inner senshi helping them.
they did have a talisman stuck up the arse.. but again.. i feel their
attitudes are somewhat justified when you look at what they were getting out
of the deal. more people on their team who were unproven in their eyes and a
leader that displayed a marked level of *ahem* stupidity in everyday life.
(not to say usagi herself is stupid, just that she fell victim to avoidable
situations).
i think a better word might be to call them arrogent.. they are definitely
that at times.. x.x;
> Fools -- Usagi is revealed to be Sailor Moon.. and then Venus shows up
> in a REALLY bad Sailor Moon outfit--without any odango, shouting
> different attack phrases, talking about a disguise--and they don't catch
> on..? I'd say they were fooled. Thus, they're fools. ;)
oh, come on, james :P if that is your arguement for them being fools i could
dig around and find one to justify *every* character being a fool. usagi
would top my list for not putting 2 and 2 together in ep 102 when she *saw*
haruka as uranus in haruka's car and still didn't figure it out. who's the
fool in that case?
<snip bit about strengths>
> > > Never mind the fact that the outers are intruding on inner territory.
> >
> > <blinks> Hm?
>
> Inners -> protect princess and her court
> Outers -> protect solar system
>
> Sailor Moon wants no one to be sacrificed to find the grail. The inners
> have to protect Moon as she tries to save these people. The outers,
> meanwhile, should be protecting the solar system from attack--doesn't
> this imply that they should be keeping others from entering the solar
> system? Not irradicating the threat that's already there. They're
> here, fine. Let the inners take care of the immediate threat. But the
> outers are there to protect against the long-term threat; the arrival of
> more.
i'll debate your definition of the outer's mission a bit. as i understood
it.. their mission was to 'protect the solar system from outside threats',
yes? the death busters are certainly an outside threat. an outside threat
that slipped by for whatever reason and now must be neutralized while the
inners protect the princess. in my mind, the outers are the ones you'd want
to send out *first* to go after the death busters since they aren't as close
to the royals as the inners.. like layers of protection.. the outers are the
outmost layer and the first to go while the inners are the next layer in and
then the royals themselves. the exact position of the current threat doesn't
matter since it's origin is well established that is was from out-system.
for protecting against anymore incoming threats. they could have been off
doing that. but you're more or less tying your left hand to do that. why
not throw all your resouces into stopping the threat since you figure out
(eventually) that more *will be coming* if you don't stop the force that is
there already. now.. if they had more resouces.. more power to them to set up
sentinals to protect the system while the others fight at home.
> > > Never mind that the outers didn't do their job in R of keeping the
> > > aliens out of inner space.
<coughs into her hand> naoko hadn't thought that far yet ;P
but i did have an idea on that (which you are welcome to blow all the holes
in that you want since i'm not sure how solid it is..) the idea is that the
'trigger' for awakening the outers would be an outside force invading, yes?
but the aliens were already in-system.. like the blackmoon was, like the dark
kingdom was.. so the trip-wire wasn't *ahem* tripped over, so to say ^^;
thus, no outers until the death busters come visiting in the s season :)
> > ... ... well, if you want to look at it that way, where in seven
> > Shinto jigoku was Makoto for the fight with Jadite? I mean, Minako
> > has an *excuse*. She, at least, was in England. How long before S
> > has Michiru been aware of her identity as Neptune, again? (Really.
> > I don't remember ^^; But it wasn't all that long.) I don't think she
> > was even aware of being a Senshi 'til after the Dark Moon threat.
> > And she didn't bump into Haruka until later ... and we know that
> > Michiru was there when Haruka first became Uranus again ...
they never really put a date on michiru. tim nolan builds a scenario for her
being awakened around the same time as sailor v in his story 'awakening 2'.
(which is a basis that i use for my own fanfiction since it is a well thought
out and believeable scenario).
> But how about Pluto? Shouldn't she have been pulling double duty until
> the others returned? Heck, she KNOWS this is going to happen--so why
> doesn't she awaken Haruka and Michiru, tell them what the heck's gonna
> happen, and get on with it..?!
i could go with the easy answer and say that she was guarding the time line..
or perhaps she was sleeping on the job ;P but my best guess is that, alas,
naoko-sama hadn't thought of it yet ^^;
but then again.. where would we be if she *had* thought of everything already
;P
> > > Never mind that they're a bunch of righteous rich kids who think they
> > > can do whatever the hell they want to achieve their goals.
now, now, no reason to be tart :P
> > Errrrrr ... may I remind you their goals are the salvation of
> > mankind? ^^; I'm not saying that Haruka and Michiru were
> > necessarily 100% right in their actions (wellll ... I *am* a
> > little biased ^^; ), but taken from Kenobi's certain point of view -
> > not even being that liberal, their seemingly self-centered attitudes
> > and apparent indifference for human death can be argued as maybe
> > not the best humanitarian effort on the planet, but certainly not
> > *wrong*. They were looking for the Talismans before the daimons could
> > get their hands on them, which as we know would put the Grail in
> > Pharoah 90's hands rather and abruptly bring the Silence to Earth.
>
> But why? Because they heard voices in their heads, telling them that
> the silence was coming? Hell, I get the same thing right before an
> assignment is due, and I don't go around knocking people over with water
> and playing with a henshin wand.
and the fact that you have said wand in hand wouldn't give a bit more weight
to the visions that you are having? or the fact that *creatures* are
attacking wouldn't make you wonder? my lord james, what does it take with
you?
> But their humanitarian effort is NOT where I see the big problem..
<nods>
> > ... they needed to find the Talismans. If three people had to
> > die to prevent the most royal screwing-over this planet has seen
> > since the end of Serenity's kingdom, then so be it. Better three
> > than three billion almost twice over. As someone else has mentioned,
> > they thought that Usagi and the other Inners were getting in their
> > way - they probably didn't know what was going on, and so thought
> > that what h&m were doing was wrong. Didn't they try to prevent
> > or at least protest the taking of people's heart crystals to see
> > if they were the Talismans? If the Outers thought that what *they*
> > were doing was right - at least keep in mind they had good intentions,
> > if not good execution - then the Inners' obstruction of those means
> > would be wrong.
>
> So let's draw an analogy. A child is being born, and the new doctor on
> staff does the delivery with an experienced nurse by his/her side. The
> baby comes out, the cord is snipped, and then the doctor slaps the
> baby. Hard. The nurse protests, saying that it isn't necessary to slap
> so hard, but the doctor points out that you have to slap hard if you
> want results. If the baby develops brain damage, is what the nurse said
> wrong, because the doctor had good intentions..?!
i don't see where this analogy matches up to be quite honest. you say if the
baby develops brain damage.. but was it the result of the slapping (i'm not
assuming here..) and what are the chances of anything being done about it?
okay.. real life example for you.. when yours truely was born, she was 2lb
11oz and *very* small. the dr thought that she was having problems coming
out, so he grabbed her by the ear with a pair of forcepts and pulled her out.
her ear was tweaked in a way that caused it to grow into a bent/slight
deformed way with some nerve damage that causes pain whenever when she
happens to fall asleep on that side of her head. is it the dr's fault, yes,
can anything be done about it, nope. in short, shit happens, live with it
<shrugs>
> > > > 3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
> > >
> > > They're supposed to be guarding the solar system against attacks from
> > > outside the solar system. Instead, they suddenly decide that it'd be
> > > better if they come to Earth, and screw everything up on the inners.
> >
> > ... ... <blink> Um ... weren't the Death Busters and Tomoe kind of ...
> > on ... Earth? ^^; And weren't they in league with P-90, by definition
> > an external threat since he was from ... ah ... Tau Ceti? And they
> > certainly didn't *intend* to mess with the Inners.
>
> Like I said above, if the outers had concerned themselves with defending
> against external threats and ignored what was already there, then things
> would've been fine. The enemy never would've found the talismans. The
> grail never would've had the possibility of falling into enemy hands.
> No one would've had to suffer.
the world is full of 'ifs'.. why don't we take the easy way out and blow up
the entire planet, that would surely stop the death busters! do you *know*
that the death busters wouldn't have moved somewhere else looking for the
talismans.. possibly somewhere less advantageous. for all the chaos in the
universe, there is some balance to it.. what if in a drastic move to get the
talismans, the death busters stayed off planet and instead threatened to
destroy the sun or some proposterous thing as ransom for the talismans? do
you think usagi would have an easier time of handing the outers over then she
did watching them to the things they did?
this is the stuff fanfics are made of.. get to writing james ;P
> But because the outers were on Earth, the professor and his ilk kept
> "reading" that the holders were on Earth, putting everyone on Earth at
> risk.
please refer to my earlier rant about this point.. <grins>
> > > <rant> After all, if they hadn't returned to Earth, there never would've
> > > been the problem of Mistress 9, etc.. </rant>
you don't *know* that.. i want to see some ficage, james.. convince me of this
scenario..
> > See above. And Hotaru had no choice about being on Earth ... she was
> > kind of born there (in this life at least), being Sailor Saturn
> > notwithstanding. And Tomoe, possessed by an alien *before* Michiru
> > remembered Neptune - after all, wasn't it the threat of Tomoe, the
> > daimons, the Witches that caused her to re-activate as a Senshi? -
> > kind of set off the events of the S season, not H&M ... they were
> > just doing what they thought would best defend from the Silence.
>
> So they decided to do something directly to prevent the problem instead
> of doing their job that they were assigned to do in the case of this
> possibility? I'm more inclined to believe that the purpose of Uranus
> and Neptune was to defend the solar system from external attacks while
> the inners looked after the present threat.
again.. refer to my earlier arguement. imho.. they *were* doing their job as
assigned. the inners to the royal family, the outers to external threats.
i'm also inclined to think that uranus and neptune at the doormats to crystal
tokyo.. but that's another rant entirely..
> Besides, if they were supposed to be the ones looking after this current
> enemy... why aren't they all working on it? Shouldn't Pluto be actively
> helping them, instead of /sliding/ back and forth from the TimeGate
> every once in a while? I'm sure she'd have some good intel for them,
> considering the forknowledge she'd be able to attain..
i think you give her too much credit. pluto is always a convienant way out
when you get stuck. why not be a bit more creative and not use your ace, eh?
i'm not mocking you james.. anything but.. it's just aggivating to see
people assuming that pluto can make things right or <blank> could have been
prevented if she was doing her job. bull! she *was* doing her job by *NOT*
interfering. trust a seasoned beachwarmer when i say that it's always easier
to see how things should be played out from that position.. but even more
aggrivating when you can't pass along that knowledge. you erroneously think
that it would be easy for her to keep her jaw shut? imho, *that* is one of
the hardest parts of her job..
> > -|-E the Icefalcon
> > <going ahead and posting ... it's kind of long, kind of ranty, and
> > I don't feel like re-reading it again. I'm used to getting six/seven
> > hours of sleep ^_^; >
>
> You too, huh? Last night, a bunch of us ended up taking a walk at
> roughly 3:00am. Dang but it was cold..
ranty.. definitely.. i did get to see the first snow of this year this
weekend.. phoenix-san.. i have a snowball with your name on it ;P
> James
> ..dum de dum..
beans
who does want to point out once more her respect for james, though she might
disagree with some of his ideas.. ^^;
--
(1.8.11) SM:6+F:sUr++Ou+[+]:vEu+:pS D:sCh--St-
O:d+s?o+a-h P:a21:s57:w115:f:eBGLg:hBl-:x:r+|-
mke...@ycp.edu
tcur...@aol.com.net (TCurryFan) wrote:
> "Korb <spamsuck...@yahoo.com>" said:
>
> >TCurryFan wrote in message ><19981109034501...@ng27.aol.com>...
> >> Ohayo, minna!
> >>
> >> P
> >> O
> >> I
> >> L
> >> E
> >> R
> >> S
> >> O
> >> R
> >> S
> >They have, quite literally, put their hearts into their search
> >for the talismans.
>
> Sorry, I don't see it that way. Besides, they had the talismans their whole
> lives, even before they knew about it.
Ok, here's a question. What is one of the talisman holders had died BEFORE
they knew it existed? Like, let's say Haruka somehow died at the age of six.
Since she had it then, what would have become of the talisman?
Marie
VeilK
>the Icefalcon and his FFV and FFVII soundtracks wrote:
>>
>> <glances at title> Why, they're better, of course! That's the obvious
>> answer! Come on, minna-san -_^;
>
>...
>
>Sure got quiet in here awfully quick.. ^_-
>
>
>> James Helferty wrote:
>> >
>> > S SPOILERS!!
>> >
>> > S
>> > P
>> > O
>> > I
>> > L
>> > E
>> > R
>> > S
>> > !
>> > !
>> >
>> > goraion wrote:
>> > >
>> > > How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in Sailormoon in
>terms
>> > > of:
>> > >
>> > > 1. Relationships with other characters
>> >
>> > Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are gay.
>>
>> Your point? It's not like they hit on the Inners all the time ...
>> and episode 92 doesn't count ;P
>
>Why not? ^_^;
Isn't that the ep where the inners thought Haruka was boy? And were doing more
flirting with Haruka than she was with them? Flirting=following her, etc.
Personally I think she flirts with them to tease them (cause it's fun, rather
than out of any interest (well, maybe Usagi) ), with the added bonus of making
Michiru jealous.
>
>
>> > At the beginning, Sailor Pluto and Sailor Saturn don't really have
>> > any friends.
>>
snippage
>But you're right. Pluto has ChibiMoon. [shudder]
Yup, Pluto (from the future) has ChibiMoon...what's wrong with that?
The present day Pluto (she's not from the future, right?, it's been awhile
since I've seen these eps), has friends.....Neptune and Uranus. I don't
remember a scene in the anime where they say to Pluto "Who are you?" So
presumably they know each other. And presumably Pluto, Neptune, and Uranus
have normal friends, they just aren't seen. You can't show every aspect of
their lives, it's not the Outer Senshi Show, unfortunately.
Hotaru is an invalid. Invalid's don't get out much....physical extertion tires
her out. No kid wants to be around a sick kid. Also, in one ep, when she
heals Chibi Usa, she says the other kids don't like her because of this. So
it's a double whammy for poor Hotaru.
>
>
>> > > 2. Personality
>> >
>> > Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are pigheaded, self-righteous, arrogant
>> > fools who think that, because they're a little bit stronger than the
>> > inners, that they're better suited to the job the inners have been doing
>> > for the last few years.
snippage
>Pigheaded -- okay, bullheaded would probably be a better word for it
>(thanks, Frank). They don't want to change their minds, no matter
>what. Their way is the best way, and there's no other ways about it.
Question: if somebody comes up to you and says there is a better way to do
something, but I don't know what it is, and no, I can't prove it to you right
now, but golly gee whiz, it really it a better way, would you believe them?
Not me....especially if it ran against some deeply held beliefs I had. I'd
want *proof* before I changed my mind. So, yeah, I guess you could call them
stubborn.
>
>Self-righteous -- Our way is right, ours is the only way, you are
>inferior and incapable of doing what we're doing.. All arguments they
>used against the inner senshi helping them.
As far as they know, their way is the right way. No one has proven it
otherwise. You are looking at it, knowing information they don't. They do not
know Usagi-tachi and what they've been through. Do you really think the senshi
are giving reports of their activities to the newspapers? Yes, today I
defeated such and such....NOT. I get the impression that the senshi are more
than a little publicity shy..except for Venus. They don't know about Queen
Beryl or the Dead Moon Family, or how SM defeated them.
And well, I wouldn't be impressed with Usagi-tachi either. Sure they manage to
collectively defeat the MOTD. Collectively.
Uranus and Neptune are more than capable of killing the MOTD by
themselves....we just don't see it...it is the SM show. Otherwise, there would
be lots of MOTD running around, and they'd be dead. Not mention, U&N have to
save Usagi-tachi's rears in nearly ep.....they have to free them so Usagi-tachi
can do their thing. So they look like incompetents who can just barely do the
job and kill the MOTD.
>
>Fools -- Usagi is revealed to be Sailor Moon.. and then Venus shows up
>in a REALLY bad Sailor Moon outfit--without any odango, shouting
>different attack phrases, talking about a disguise--and they don't catch
>on..? I'd say they were fooled. Thus, they're fools. ;)
So was the bad guy, then. Quite frankly, in the middle of a battle situation,
I think it'd be easy to "fool" both them and the bad guy. Yeah, they have the
time to go, no rabbit ears, different attack phrases, etc...equal false SM.
Now if at a later date, they thought about it, they'd probably have suspicions
that that was a fake SM, but no way to prove it. And just because it was a
fake Usagi, doesn't necessarily follow Usagi was SM. SM could have been home
sick that day.
>
>
>> > Never mind that the inners are collectively stronger than the outers.
>>
>> <cough> Are we counting Sailor Moon here? ... of course we are. That
>> kind of throws any comparison off balance. I mean ... Sailor Pluto
>> can [is forbidden to - will probably die if she] stop time. Sailor
>> Saturn can, to use a horribly hackneyed quote, destroy the world in
>> three words. Sailor Moon can contain DRR. ... Sailor Moon is arguably
>> the strongest Senshi there is (at least, in our solar system. I don't
>> know enough about Galaxia and any other Senshi out there to even
>> try to compare ^_^; ), and even so, including her with the rest of
>> the inners would make it a 5-4 contest, which isn't *fair* ^^;
>> But I think you see what I'm getting at ... ? Though the power
>> of both groups of Senshi is nothing to sneeze at. Why do you say
>> Mercury, Venus, Mars, and Jupiter have much more power than Saturn,
>> Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto?
>
>Saturn doesn't know she's Saturn at the first. Pluto's not even around
>90% of the time, since she's supposed to be guarding the time gate. And
>Neptune and Uranus didn't exactly pose much of a threat to the inners,
>when they finally had their climatic battle, ne..?
Forgive me, I've only seen the fansubbed eps. But don't N&U go up against
Usagi only? She has the gin...Silver Imperium Crytal (no idea of how to spell
the Jap. name). Of course, they'll lose against that.. But I'll say this,
Usagi is dependent on the crystal and her wands and stuff. If taken away from
her, she is the weakest senshi. The power comes from the stone, not her. Her
beliefs may help power the stone...but that's all.
Uranus and Neptune are stronger than the inners, excluding Usagi. W/O Usagi in
it, the inners would lose in a fight against the outers. For Pete's sake,
their mission is to defend the solar system against outside attacks, which they
were very successful out. Can you imagine the power to do that? I would bet
they had powers too destructive to use on earth, that they could use only in
space, to destroy the attackers. We just haven't seen them. After all, the
kingdom was destroyed by forces inside the solar system, Queen Beryl), not
outside the system.
Not to mention, since they can kill MOTD, but aren't, this means that they are
pulling back on their power.
>> > Never mind the fact that the outers are intruding on inner territory.
>>
>> <blinks> Hm?
>
>Inners -> protect princess and her court
>Outers -> protect solar system
>
>Sailor Moon wants no one to be sacrificed to find the grail. The inners
>have to protect Moon as she tries to save these people. The outers,
>meanwhile, should be protecting the solar system from attack--doesn't
>this imply that they should be keeping others from entering the solar
>system? Not irradicating the threat that's
Learn to spell...it's eradicating...not irradicating...which misspelling to me
at least means irradation..which is bombarding something with radiation.
already there. They're
>here, fine. Let the inners take care of the immediate threat. But the
>outers are there to protect against the long-term threat; the arrival of
>more.
This whole thing makes no sense to me....IT"S the inners who are interfering
with the outers. The outers are trying to find/kill the aliens...who they can
sense are there. These aliens are from outside the solar system--that
qualifies it as their job. The inners should butt out frankly. So SM want to
save these people, big deal. She's the princess, she shouldn't be on the
front line at all. And her protectors are so effective <sarcasm>. How many
times does Usagi die? How many times does she kill the MOTD? Her protector's
powers should be able to kill the MOTD; they're pretty ineffective at this,
they should be fighting the MOTD at full power. Usagi usually saves their rear.
And yes, right now N&U have to wait for the attacker to come to earth.
Conversation with NASA..."I need the space shuttle to go after some
aliens...they're invading our system!!!!!" "Yeah, right." Get these crackpots
outta here.
Oh, I get it....they're supposed to live on deserted, uninhabitable planets
that won't support life and wait for attackers that may never come.
>
>> > Never mind that the outers didn't do their job in R of keeping the
>> > aliens out of inner space.
Maybe it's because aliens are such a low level threat, they don't really sense
them. After all, they are hunting the more powerful Death Busters, who could
cause real damage. After they'd taken care of them, then they'd sense them and
take care of them, if they were still there. Or maybe Pluto said don't bother,
it'll be taken care of?
>>
>> ... ... well, if you want to look at it that way, where in seven
>> Shinto jigoku was Makoto for the fight with Jadite? I mean, Minako
>> has an *excuse*. She, at least, was in England. How long before S
>> has Michiru been aware of her identity as Neptune, again? (Really.
>> I don't remember ^^; But it wasn't all that long.) I don't think she
>> was even aware of being a Senshi 'til after the Dark Moon threat.
>> And she didn't bump into Haruka until later ... and we know that
>> Michiru was there when Haruka first became Uranus again ...
>
>But how about Pluto? Shouldn't she have been pulling double duty until
>the others returned? Heck, she KNOWS this is going to happen--so why
>doesn't she awaken Haruka and Michiru, tell them what the heck's gonna
>happen, and get on with it..?!
Why should Pluto take the chance that telling them what would happen would
alter the future? If they knew what would happen, they could get complacent
and do something wrong that could alter the future. Her primary job is
guarding the time gate/timeline, not changing it. After all, it all turned out
ok.
>
>
>> > Never mind that they're a bunch of righteous rich kids who think they
>> > can do whatever the hell they want to achieve their goals.
>>
>> Errrrrr ... may I remind you their goals are the salvation of
>> mankind? ^^; I'm not saying that Haruka and Michiru were
>> necessarily 100% right in their actions (wellll ... I *am* a
>> little biased ^^; ), but taken from Kenobi's certain point of view -
>> not even being that liberal, their seemingly self-centered attitudes
>> and apparent indifference for human death can be argued as maybe
>> not the best humanitarian effort on the planet, but certainly not
>> *wrong*. They were looking for the Talismans before the daimons could
>> get their hands on them, which as we know would put the Grail in
>> Pharoah 90's hands rather and abruptly bring the Silence to Earth.
>
>But why? Because they heard voices in their heads, telling them that
>the silence was coming? Hell, I get the same thing right before an
>assignment is due, and I don't go around knocking people over with water
>and playing with a henshin wand.
Well, gee, you could say the same thing about the info Mars gets from her
visions. U&N were having the exact same dreams w/o even knowing each other.
They compared dreams, knew they were senshi, what more do you want? Also,
Pluto could have confirmed that for them...yes, kiddos, the visions are real,
if you don't do this, the world won't exist, can't say more than that, better
get going.
>
>But their humanitarian effort is NOT where I see the big problem..
>
>
>> ... they needed to find the Talismans. If three people had to
>> die to prevent the most royal screwing-over this planet has seen
>> since the end of Serenity's kingdom, then so be it. Better three
>> than three billion almost twice over. As someone else has mentioned,
>> they thought that Usagi and the other Inners were getting in their
>> way - they probably didn't know what was going on, and so thought
>> that what h&m were doing was wrong.
No probably about it.
Didn't they try to prevent
>> or at least protest the taking of people's heart crystals to see
>> if they were the Talismans?
Yes. You might not like it, but yes they watched while the crystals were
extracted, then acted. They knew they needed the Talismans to defeat the
evil, and they were right weren't they? They also defeated or SM did the MOTD,
then put the crystal back in that person. They knew how to put the crystal
back into those people, SM and the other didn't. See the ep where U&N meet
Eudial at that cathedral, SM asked how do I put the crystal back in? She
didn't know how. U&N did because they'd done it before.
By the way, one thing that's never brought up here, is that, yes those three
people would be dead. But they either die because 1) U&N got the crystals from
the bad guys; 2) the bad guys keep them and everybody on the planet dies.
Either way, they are dead.
If the Outers thought that what *they*
>> were doing was right - at least keep in mind they had good intentions,
>> if not good execution - then the Inners' obstruction of those means
>> would be wrong.
It was....they were interfering in something in which they had no knowlege of
and had been requested by those whose job it was to keep out of it. However,
it worked out but only because from what I understand, Usagi got very, very
lucky.
snippage of horrible analogy which had nothing to do with anything.
>
>
>> > They're the best ones for the job. You'll be hearing that argument
>> > a lot from the resident Haruka and Michiru lovers.. Ź_Ź;;
They are--the inners don't have the stomach or the power for it. I don't think
the inners could defend the solar system.
>>
snippage.
>
>> > > 3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
>> >
>> > They're supposed to be guarding the solar system against attacks from
>> > outside the solar system. Instead, they suddenly decide that it'd be
>> > better if they come to Earth, and screw everything up on the inners.
>>
>> ... ... <blink> Um ... weren't the Death Busters and Tomoe kind of ...
>> on ... Earth? ^^; And weren't they in league with P-90, by definition
>> an external threat since he was from ... ah ... Tau Ceti? And they
>> certainly didn't *intend* to mess with the Inners.
>
>Like I said above, if the outers had concerned themselves with defending
>against external threats and ignored what was already there, then things
>would've been fine. The enemy never would've found the talismans. The
>grail never would've had the possibility of falling into enemy hands.
>No one would've had to suffer.
Wrong. They didn't know that tthey had the Talismans inside them. They
thought the Tal. were in other people and that sooner or later they would be
found. And they were....Eudial finally figured it out. And they were
defending the earth from outside invaders.
>
>But because the outers were on Earth, the professor and his ilk kept
>"reading" that the holders were on Earth, putting everyone on Earth at
>risk.
No, duh, really? After all, they died, and were reincarnated on Earth. See
above statements. Where do ya want them to live? On Uranus or Neptune, gee
lots of food, water, and houses there.....NOT. No one had to choice about
being reborn on earth....that's where the queen sent them too, not to mention
earthlings were the only ones alive.
>
>
>> > <rant> After all, if they hadn't returned to Earth, there never would've
>> > been the problem of Mistress 9, etc.. </rant>
You don't know that.....for all we know, Pharoah 9 could have chosen one of
inners for his host, if Hotaru hadn't been born.
>>
>> See above. And Hotaru had no choice about being on Earth ... she was
>> kind of born there (in this life at least), being Sailor Saturn
>> notwithstanding. And Tomoe, possessed by an alien *before* Michiru
>> remembered Neptune - after all, wasn't it the threat of Tomoe, the
>> daimons, the Witches that caused her to re-activate as a Senshi? -
>> kind of set off the events of the S season, not H&M ... they were
>> just doing what they thought would best defend from the Silence.
>
>So they decided to do something directly to prevent the problem instead
>of doing their job that they were assigned to do in the case of this
>possibility? I'm more inclined to believe that the purpose of Uranus
>and Neptune was to defend the solar system from external attacks while
>the inners looked after the present threat.
No, the inners protected Usagi. I'm kinda thinking they had some kind of
military & spacecraft that policed the planets, but didn't go out of the
system. I think the inners were like a last line of defense for the attackers
to get through.
>
>Besides, if they were supposed to be the ones looking after this current
>enemy... why aren't they all working on it? Shouldn't Pluto be actively
>helping them, instead of /sliding/ back and forth from the TimeGate
>every once in a while? I'm sure she'd have some good intel for them,
>considering the forknowledge she'd be able to attain..
Gee, not to mention changing the future and timeline which is what she'd be
doing if she blabbed about what she knew. Also, maybe the gate was under
attack and she was needed there? We don't know, we're not shown it. And she
did help them look for the messiah. I think she helps as much as can w/o
screwing up the timeline.
>
>
>> -|-E the Icefalcon
snippage.
>
>James
>..dum de dum..
Ja!
VeilK
>> tcur...@aol.com.net (TCurryFan) wrote:
>> > "Korb <spamsuck...@yahoo.com>" said:
>> >
>> > >TCurryFan wrote in message
>><19981109034501...@ng27.aol.com>...
>> > >> Ohayo, minna!
>> > >>
>> > >> P
>> > >> O
>> > >> I
>> > >> L
>> > >> E
>> > >> R
>> > >> S
>> > >> O
>> > >> R
>> > >> S
>>
>> > >They have, quite literally, put their hearts into their search
>> > >for the talismans.
>> >
>> > Sorry, I don't see it that way. Besides, they had the talismans their
>whole
>> > lives, even before they knew about it.
>>
>> Ok, here's a question. What is one of the talisman holders had died
>> BEFORE they knew it existed? Like, let's say Haruka somehow died at
>> the age of six. Since she had it then, what would have become of the
>> talisman?
>
Well either she'd been reincarnated again, and have to deal with it as a child.
But if she wasn't reincarnated, it wouldn't matter about the Pharoah. Since
access to all the Tal. is prevented, he can't be summoned, since the Grail
cannot be summoned. Show over. Unless, somehow Pluto went back in time and
"retrieved" it for use in the future. Though why she'd do this is beyond me.
Frank White
>
><snipping a conversation that I really wish I had enough knowledge to take part
>in>
>
>>the silence was coming?
>
>me out... I haven't seen S yet, but I know that Rei has dreams about the
>Silence. How does she react to them? Does she do anything about it?
>
>**Lily**
In one episode we see her spending a lot of time and effort in
front of the Temple's sacred fire, trying to see in the flames
an explaination for her dream. Unfortunately she's unable to
get anything that helps her...
It's logical to assume she keeps trying this - scrying in the
fire is, after all, a way she can find out things normally
hidden from mortal sight - but we don't see any of her
subsequent efforts in later episodes.
FW
h_s...@hotmail.com
gbe...@kfalls.net wrote:
> In article <364615F4...@chat.carleton.ca>,
> James Helferty <jhel...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
> > the Icefalcon and his FFV and FFVII soundtracks wrote:
>
> i leave for *one* weekend and y'all start up a thread like this.. ara.. i'll
> never catch up <shakes head at self before rolling up her sleeves and digging
> in>
<hands over the shovel> <sigh...> I'm still clearin' e-mail ... over the limit
with 4.5M mail --;;
>
> > > James Helferty wrote:
> > > >
> > > > S SPOILERS!!
>
> woo! s season :D
<cheers!>
>
> > > > S
> > > > P
> > > > O
> > > > I
> > > > L
> > > > E
> > > > R
> > > > S
> > > > !
> > > > !
> > > >
> > > > goraion wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in Sailormoon in
> terms
> > > > > of:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Relationships with other characters
> > > >
> > > > Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are gay.
>
> smart alick..
But true... ^^
>
> > > Your point? It's not like they hit on the Inners all the time ...
> > > and episode 92 doesn't count ;P
> >
> > Why not? ^_^;
>
> because usagi turns around and glomps on michiru in an episode following that
> one :P
>
> <snip manga referrence>
Wellll....depends whether we wanna see subtext where it may not exist.
>
> > > > > 2. Personality
> > > >
> > > > Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are pigheaded, self-righteous, arrogant
> > > > fools who think that, because they're a little bit stronger than the
> > > > inners, that they're better suited to the job the inners have been doing
> > > > for the last few years.
>
> james-kun! you wound me right here <points to her heart> and i thought you'd
> cared.. <laughs> just joshin' ya..
A'course... we could delve into the entire raison d'etre for the two Senshi...
but it's a case of: been there, done that, wrote it up...
>
> > > Aaaaaaaaaaaaah ... <sits and stares at screen> You have defiled the
> > > names of the True Senshi. You must die. -_^ Ermmmm ... let's see what
> > > we have to say, shall we? Although I don't think it's fair to so ...
> > > ... ... *finally* classify them as such. Why do you say they're
> > > pigheaded? And <wrestles with the typing for amoment> self-righteous?
> > > And fools?
>
> agreed on all but the dying part. he still serves a purpose as a chibi-usa
> hater ;P~
<smirks> <_< >_> >_<;;; I coulda sworn that a similar argument of this nature
occurred almost a year ago on a similar theme...
One of their many foibles... some people choose to dislike the Outer Senshi
because of their 'arrogance' but then... it's all a facade.
a'course... by the time it hits earth, everybody's involved... ^_^
> for protecting against anymore incoming threats. they could have been off
> doing that. but you're more or less tying your left hand to do that. why
> not throw all your resouces into stopping the threat since you figure out
> (eventually) that more *will be coming* if you don't stop the force that is
> there already. now.. if they had more resouces.. more power to them to set up
> sentinals to protect the system while the others fight at home.
>
> > > > Never mind that the outers didn't do their job in R of keeping the
> > > > aliens out of inner space.
>
> <coughs into her hand> naoko hadn't thought that far yet ;P
pluto took a vacation and forgot to notify the others...
certainly not writin' fanfics forsure...!
Y'know... babies are 'slapped' or patted.. on the backside at birth to help
clear the airways... why else are the lil ones crying at birth?
Then again, road to hot firey tartarus/hades/hell/deep dark place is lined
with marvelous intentions...
>
> okay.. real life example for you.. when yours truely was born, she was 2lb
> 11oz and *very* small.the dr thought that she was having problems coming
Y'know... if'ing y'self to death don't help the situation. If people spent
all their time dealin' with 'ifs' they'd have no time to do anythin' else...
>
> this is the stuff fanfics are made of.. get to writing james ;P
<snaps the whip> Hai Oujo-sama!
Come out to the east side here... ^_^ It's raining like... Hades... and
there's gonna be snow. I've got an umbrella with a name on it... sorta mine,
except I keep forgettin' it... --;;
>
> > James
> > ..dum de dum..
>
> beans
> who does want to point out once more her respect for james, though she might
> disagree with some of his ideas.. ^^;
Ahhh... but a good start to the fanfics... ^_-
Helen
kristyn lier
[mucho mucho snippage]
>>I'd tell you, but then I'd be accused of being an insensitive jerk who
was hiding behind his homophobia and not seeing the facts clearly.<<
*sigh* .... you said it, i didn't.
the world doesn't revolve around you, just as it doesn't revolve around
me. it just revolves, and we all live on it, together. we are one
people: humans, just as different as we are the same.
k-chan
i just am ^_^
kristyn lier
>>>>>>My friend brought up an interesting point to me tonight... If Naptune amd Uranus are so bad, why do they have the pure hearts that HOLD THE TALISMANS?!<<<<<<
korb wrote:
>>>>>Because their quest for the talismans has so engulfed their lives that it is all they can think about.<<<<<
catherine wrote:
>>Is that why they hung out with Usagi-tachi? Went to concerts? Took art classes? I see no evidence that the talismans were all they could think about. Yes, it was a MAJOR part of their lives, but then, if you were given the job of saving the world, it would probably become a big part of your life, too. But there's plenty of evidence that they did other things, as well.<<<<
their lives before their 'awakening' were full of life and vigor and
excitement, passion and drive. after 'awakening' they had to abandon
almost all of their dreams and passions and desires, but they couldn't
fully leave their life behind them. if they had, then i belive they
would have gone quite insane. staying in touch with what they liked to
do and enjoyed kept them sane, reminded them of their humanity during
the quest for such a deed as the taking of three lives, the death of the
world.
korb wrote:
>>>They have, quite literally, put their hearts into their search for the talismans.<<<
catherine wrote:
>>Sorry, I don't see it that way. Besides, they had the talismans their whole lives, even before they knew about it.<<
i don't know the manga all that well, but going by the anime and what i
do know and have seen of the manga: haruka, michiru, and setsuna (and
their reincarnates) have always had the talismans, and as such, pure
hearts. remember..
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
!
..during the infamous episode #111 when pluto took harukamichiru's
talismans from eudial, and then revealed that she had the third, and had
always had. she even had it already off her BAK, held in her hand as she
summoned harukamichiru and returned their heart crystals to them without
the talismans. setsuna (aka: pluto) has always known about the talismans
from the silver millenium to the present. it's just that harukamichiru
didn't know nor did they remember. so, they have always had pure hearts
because they are good people, full of self-sacrifice and dedication.
they are senshi after all and [unless you live in levar-san's BSSO] not
just anybody can and is a senshi.
k-chan
lalala.. ^^
TCurryFan
>TCurryFan wrote in message ><19981109144259...@ng08.aol.com>...
>>"Korb <spamsuck...@yahoo.com>" said:
>>>TCurryFan wrote in message
>><19981109034501...@ng27.aol.com>...
>>>>
>>>> Ohayo, minna!
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>> P
>>>> O
>>>> I
>>>> L
>>>> E
>>>> R
>>>> S
>>>> F
>>>> O
>>>> R
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>> My friend brought up an interesting point to me tonight...
>>>> If Neptune amd Uranus are so bad, why do they have
>>>> the pure hearts that HOLD THE TALISMANS?!
>>>
>>>Because their quest for the talismans has so engulfed their
>>>lives that it is all they can think about.
>>
>> Is that why they hung out with Usagi-tachi? Went to
>> concerts? Took art classes? I see no evidence that the
>> talismans were all they could think about. Yes, it was a
>> MAJOR part of their lives, but then, if you were given the
>> job of saving the world, it would probably become a big
>> part of your life, too. But there's plenty of evidence that
>> they did other things, as well.
>>
>>>They have, quite literally, put their hearts into their search
>>>for the talismans.
>>
>> Sorry, I don't see it that way. Besides, they had the
>> talismans theirwhole lives, even before they knew about it.
>
>Well it's the only answer I could come up with when I asked
>myself the same question.
How about; "they're maybe not as bad as I think they are"?
>Besides it was never stated that the purest hearts held the
>talismans, only that they were inside pure hearts.
I never said they had the *purest* hearts, but they obviously have pure hearts,
which they don't seem to be able to have if they're as bad as people like James
claims they are.
>Also all of those places you mentioned they went, are the
>kind of places where pure hearted people might be:
>pure-hearted musicians, pure-hearted sculptors,
>pure-hearted Sailor Senshi ^_^.
But did they go to those places on purpose, looking for them? I don't think
so. It's possible that their own pure hearts attracted them to other pure
hearted people.
>Korb
Kelly Psul Graham
Revolutionary Girl Utena <jlo...@emory.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.GSO.4.05.981109...@paladin.cc.emory.edu>...
> On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 mke...@ycp.edu wrote:
>
> >
> > Ok, here's a question. What is one of the talisman holders had died
> > BEFORE they knew it existed? Like, let's say Haruka somehow died at
> > the age of six. Since she had it then, what would have become of the
> > talisman?
>
> Since she's a senshi, she would have been reincarnated...again. And the
> new Uranus, whoever she might have been, would have had the Talisman.
> Wow. Can you imagine the wrath of a nine-year old Ten'ou? Kawaii. ^_^
>
> *-Gally-*
> imagining teenaged Michiru babysitting chibi Haruka-chan. ^_^;;
>
Picture Chibi-Usa with blonde hair and MORE of an attitude
problem than
the REAL Chibiusa had in R ! Voila !! Chibi-Haruka !!!!
As for Michiru as a babysitter ? Well... seeing that she's SUCH a
perfectionist,
I see her only taking so much of Chibi-Haruka, and then killing her before
anyone can figure out
she has a star seed.
Kelly Paul Graham.
JeSquirt9
>front of the Temple's sacred fire, trying to see in the flames
>an explaination for her dream. Unfortunately she's unable to
>get anything that helps her...
>
>It's logical to assume she keeps trying this - scrying in the
>fire is, after all, a way she can find out things normally
>hidden from mortal sight - but we don't see any of her
>subsequent efforts in later episodes.
>
>FW
Okay. Arigato!
**Lily**
Sorry for the one-line reply, but I couldn't get by without saying thanks
Roshni41
>From: "Kelly Psul Graham" <kgr...@wt.net>
>Date: Tue, Nov 10, 1998 22:49 EST
>Message-id: <01be0cfd$63b33260$8315ecd0@PreferredCustomer>
I believe THIS is a central problem. Simply changing ChibiUsa hair to a
'normal' color help greatly in her likablity. Her usual overwhelming pinkness
is sickenly cute. :)
kristyn lier
beans wrote:
>>if someone came up to you out of no where and told you to stop jaywalking on a non-busy street even though the next intersection was a quarter mile down, would you do it?<<
let me think here P: ...... [ignore the smoke, people ^^;;] ......
nope.
>>or tell them what you're doin' doesn't concern them and to bug off?<<
i would, in all my politeness, say "what the fuck?! are you nuts. get a
life, and leave mine alone please. thank you ^_^"
now if it was something important and lifesaving, like if i was about
to walk into a open sewer hole or something, that's ok. but please,
jaywalking. pffft! get real O_o
>>honestly, i can tell you what my answer would be. if it's not their business, why should they give a flying cow?<<
<grin> mooooo!! got milk? ^_^
>>until they can *prove* their interest in the subject at hand, keep out of it.<<
or if their interest at hand is actually validly in your best interest.
and that's not from a selfish or self-serving point of view, such as
'saving their souls' or other rubbish like that.
>>it's just aggivating to see people assuming that pluto can make things right or <blank> could have been prevented if she was doing her job. bull! she *was* doing her job by *NOT* interfering.<<
and despite all her knowledge and wisdon, her great power and duty at
hand, she couldn't do anything while her only best friends suffered and
struggled, died and were reborn again. and her princess, and her
princess' court: all of them. the feelings of guilt and helplessness and
worthlessnes that she had to live with, still does, must be overwhelming
at times. plus, it's not like her duty and her knowledge makes her the
most popular at times either. to know that the very people she cares so
much about just cannot understand and, at times, dislike her.
hers is a tragic figure. a sad one.
and she is human. above it all she is human in every sense of the word.
one can only stand by and watch for so long when one cannot live at a
certain point, a moment of judgment, when she just has to interfere.
trust me, i know, to watch the ones closest to you, the ones you really
love and care about suffer, even die. it is the worst pain and heaviest
sorrow.
>>trust a seasoned beachwarmer when i say that it's always easier to see how things should be played out from that position.. but even more aggrivating when you can't pass along that knowledge. you erroneously think that it would be easy for her to keep her jaw shut? imho, *that* is one of the hardest parts of her job..<<
hai -.-
demo, us 'beachwarmers' [^_-] still like to swim in the ocean.
personally, i can't stand just sunning. i'll get plenty of sun as is
swimming and playing in the ocean and surf :)
k-chan
who could go swimming right now cause it's still warm enough
florida - where the winters are green.. and the summers too >P
****me page****
http://www.jacksonville.net/~phoenix/kchan.htm
Kelly Psul Graham
kristyn lier <debt...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<364943...@hotmail.com>...
> [beware of MUCHO snippage]
> beans wrote:
>
> >>it's just aggivating to see people assuming that pluto can make things
right or <blank> could have been prevented if she was doing her job. bull!
she *was* doing her job by *NOT* interfering.<<
>
> and despite all her knowledge and wisdon, her great power and duty at
> hand, she couldn't do anything while her only best friends suffered and
> struggled, died and were reborn again. and her princess, and her
> princess' court: all of them. the feelings of guilt and helplessness and
> worthlessnes that she had to live with, still does, must be overwhelming
> at times. plus, it's not like her duty and her knowledge makes her the
> most popular at times either. to know that the very people she cares so
> much about just cannot understand and, at times, dislike her.
> hers is a tragic figure. a sad one.
> and she is human. above it all she is human in every sense of the word.
> one can only stand by and watch for so long when one cannot live at a
> certain point, a moment of judgment, when she just has to interfere.
> trust me, i know, to watch the ones closest to you, the ones you really
> love and care about suffer, even die. it is the worst pain and heaviest
> sorrow.
>
> >>trust a seasoned beachwarmer when i say that it's always easier to see
how things should be played out from that position.. but even more
aggrivating when you can't pass along that knowledge. you erroneously
think that it would be easy for her to keep her jaw shut? imho, *that* is
one of the hardest parts of her job..<<
>
> hai -.-
> demo, us 'beachwarmers' [^_-] still like to swim in the ocean.
> personally, i can't stand just sunning. i'll get plenty of sun as is
> swimming and playing in the ocean and surf :)
>
> k-chan
> who could go swimming right now cause it's still warm enough
> florida - where the winters are green.. and the summers too >P
> ****me page****
> http://www.jacksonville.net/~phoenix/kchan.htm
>
Ahhh !!!!!! We're getting to what has become a favorite RANT of
mine :))
Just from what I'd read of her (since I've not seen any episode
she's in),
Pluto quickly became one of my favorite Senshi. But, alas, I've had "time"
to re-
evaluate Sailor Pluto. And, sorry to say, Meiou Setsuna falls short.
What soured me on Sailor Pluto (and to a certain extent NQS and
King
Endymion), was what I have seen of "R", which, of course, has been the dub.
I could not help but look at Chibi-Usa, Usagi's future daughter and seeming
rea-
son for "R", as not only a heroine, but a tragic figure. Much of this, I
figure, can
be laid directly at the feet of Meiou Setsuma.
As the "Senshi of Time", Pluto can see the timeline- but she also,
through
her advise, controls it. I do not share the Oriental notions of "Fate" and
"Destiny",
although I do understand them. I realize that something that's predestined
will
happen, BUT.. it will happen with or without our halping it along ! And, it
just seems
to me that Pluto is so busy advocating how things as she sees them will
"ultimately"
turn out that she forgets that the chesspieces she's moving around are
living people
with feelings ! Even if the river of time cannot (and it WILL NOT) chance
it's ultimate
course, that does not mean every bend in the river will stay in the same
place !
To use an American analogy- Meiou Setsuma reminds me of the Army Corp
of
Engineers. To non-Americans, the Army Corps, among other things, tries to
preserve
American property from natural desasters. Among their many projects has
been trying
hold the floodwaters of the Mississippi River and it's tributaries in
check. Well, their dams
and levies do not always hold damage at bay. So it is with Sailor Pluto and
her manipula-
tions of the time stream.
A prime example (but not the onl;y one I'm sure) is the use of a
scared, lonely little
girl in "R" Season. And I am halfway-sure that that little girl was raised
that way because
Pluto said it was for the best.
Right. Pluto's been at her station for WAY too long :(
Kelly Paul Graham,
Knight of the Small Lady.
Tim
> they never really put a date on michiru. tim nolan builds a scenario for her
> being awakened around the same time as sailor v in his story 'awakening 2'.
> (which is a basis that i use for my own fanfiction since it is a well thought
> out and believeable scenario).
thank you for the plug ;p
and also, it must be noted that as *soon* as michiru and haruka
meet pluto in episode #111, they *instantly* start to work as a team.
no introductions, questions, or anything. *instant* teamwork,
out of the blue, and look at how long it took michiru and haruka
to warm up to the inners. this is solid, incontrovertible
proof that the three outers were working together well before
the S series on a professional and personal level.
that means that michiru and haruka became senshi well before
the S series, and probably before the first series. the primary
thing that would have triggered them would have been the lab accident
where hotaru was killed, and her father sold his soul to get her
back. that was the first time that any efforts were made by
anyone from tau ceti in order to gain a foothold for pharoah
ninety. this happens several years before the first season of
sailor moon. while it's doubtful that michiru and haruka became
senshi at that point, it's clear that things changed at that point.
prior to meeting haruka, michiru clearly had been neptune for some
period of time. this clearly establishes that the outer's first
appearance in ep#90 was not their first engagement.
> > But how about Pluto? Shouldn't she have been pulling double duty until
> > the others returned? Heck, she KNOWS this is going to happen--so why
> > doesn't she awaken Haruka and Michiru, tell them what the heck's gonna
> > happen, and get on with it..?!
frankly, i'm surprised more people dont' see how much pluto's hands may
be tied by all these events. certain things need to happen, and if she
knows about this *and* is free to act, there is no way that any of
the evets shown in the anime or manga woudl need to happen. anyone
who can freely make use of time travel < and it can be done without
her breaking the restrictions in the manga > would have easily
been able to keep the dark kingdom from taking more then a step
onto earth. ann and ail would have never noticed this planet.
the black moon family would have never become a threat in the
near future, in order to become a threat in the far future.
the lab accident would never have happened.
the point should be starting to get clear... a pluto without
restraints on her would make for a a very peaceful and dull
life for all of the characters, and that wouldn't make for
an intersting manga or anime.
tim nolan
James Helferty
Okay, here's my explanation. When the talismans were placed in their
pure hearts, which was probably when they were reincarnated, they were
probably pure-hearted. Hey, most babies are. But as time went on,
things changed. :)
You want proof..? I'll give you proof. When those talismans pop out,
that's all that pops out. No pure heart! Why not? Shouldn't a pure
heart have come out with the talismans too..? I mean, a pure heart came
out of practically everyone, but not from the outers..? Hey, here's a
novel idea--maybe they don't HAVE pure hearts anymore..?!!
> >Besides it was never stated that the purest hearts held the
> >talismans, only that they were inside pure hearts.
>
> I never said they had the *purest* hearts, but they obviously have pure hearts,
> which they don't seem to be able to have if they're as bad as people like James
> claims they are.
See above. ^_^
> >Also all of those places you mentioned they went, are the
> >kind of places where pure hearted people might be:
> >pure-hearted musicians, pure-hearted sculptors,
> >pure-hearted Sailor Senshi ^_^.
>
> But did they go to those places on purpose, looking for them? I don't think
> so. It's possible that their own pure hearts attracted them to other pure
> hearted people.
Or the lack thereof..? You know what they say; opposites attract.. ^_-
James
..grinning..
--
http://wabakimi.carleton.ca/~jhelfert/
MoonieCode(1.8.6) SM:5+m+ F:sJu<[+]Ma>:vTo[+]Eu:aGrUm:pS
D:sUrNe:vBl>--Be>:aPe>-[-]:pR X:a13r+[+]|8s+[++]|25d+:m3r++[+]|0s
O:d+s--o++[+]a-h--[-] P:a18:s62:w-:f[-]:eDB:hDBr[+]:cW:y-[-]:r+|+
James Helferty
>
> "ctw...@nyx.nyx.net (C Wong)" said:
>
> >In article <36463fe7...@news.quadrant.net>,
> >Erin Gayle with her Beauty Change Uranus doll ^_^
> ><lasc...@quadrant.net> wrote:
>
> >> Sailor Neptune and Sailor Uranus are in a loving
> >> relationship, something you obviously have trouble with
> >> since every second post you make you mention you're
> >> homophobic. Fine, but shut up about it for a change.
> >
> >I wouldn't call him homophobic yet.
>
> He's made plenty of posts- just not in this thread- that display his feelings
> about homosexuals. And those feelings are not positive. I'd call that
> homophobia.
Okay, so I don't display positive feelings about homosexuals in
general. Yipee. You know something, though..? I haven't seen Bill
Clinton display positive feelings about homosexuals either..! And he's
in the media so much more, too.. Maybe.. [gasp] ..Clinton's
homophobic..?!?! ^_^
Of course, I've already mentioned that I'm homophobic. Not intensely
homophobic, let me tell you. I'm just afraid of a homosexual person
raping me, that's all. But I don't think there's such thing as
homonymphophobia, so I'm resigned to use the all-encompassing term
"homophobia".
...
That, and I like the whole.. ambiance.. of the term. Honestly, I find
it a mildly humorous idea. Can you imagine someone who, upon hearing
someone say "I'm gay!".. gasps, screams, and runs away,
hyperventilating, etc... ..on a level equivalent to, say,
arachnophobia..? ^_^ I mean, phobia is such a strong term..
James
..devil's advocate..
James Helferty
>
> james wrote:
> [mucho mucho snippage]
> >>I'd tell you, but then I'd be accused of being an insensitive jerk who
> was hiding behind his homophobia and not seeing the facts clearly.<<
>
> *sigh* .... you said it, i didn't.
،_،
Gosh, thanks, ..kristyn..
> the world doesn't revolve around you, just as it doesn't revolve around
> me. it just revolves, and we all live on it, together. we are one
> people: humans, just as different as we are the same.
Really..? And here I thought the world was flat..
> k-chan
> i just am ^_^
[raises eyebrow]
James
..looking over a backlog of flamish-tending posts..
Kelly Psul Graham
Roshni41 <rosh...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981111022852...@ng39.aol.com>...
> >>Subject: Re: How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi?
> >From: "Kelly Psul Graham" <kgr...@wt.net>
> >
> > Picture Chibi-Usa with blonde hair and MORE of an attitude
> >problem than
> >the REAL Chibiusa had in R ! Voila !! Chibi-Haruka !!!!
> > As for Michiru as a babysitter ? Well... seeing that she's
SUCH a
> >perfectionist,
> >I see her only taking so much of Chibi-Haruka, and then killing her
before
> >anyone can figure out
> >she has a star seed.
> >
> > Kelly Paul Graham.
>
> I believe THIS is a central problem. Simply changing ChibiUsa hair to a
> 'normal' color help greatly in her likablity. Her usual overwhelming
pinkness
> is sickenly cute. :)
>
Ahhhh...
I have an aversion to pink myself, but I managed to get over this bit
of
amine torture to become a Chibi Usa supporter.
Heck, I even got over the NA dubbed voice and am currently overcoming
the original seiyuu's voice (which I think makes Chibi Usa sound TOO old.
Kelly Paul Graham.
TCurryFan
>TCurryFan wrote:
>> S
>> P
>> O
>> I
>> L
>> E
>> R
>> S
>> F
>> O
>> R
>> S
>>
>> How about; "they're maybe not as bad as I think they are"?
>
>Okay, here's my explanation. When the talismans were
>placed in their pure hearts, which was probably when they
>were reincarnated, they were probably pure-hearted. Hey,
>most babies are. But as time went on, things changed. :)
>
>You want proof..? I'll give you proof. When those talismans
>pop out, that's all that pops out. No pure heart!
Nopers. I just checked... We can QUITE CLEARLY see their pure heart crystals;
right before they turn into the talismans.
Try again, James.
>James
James Helferty
>
> James Helferty wrote:
>
> > S SPOILERS!!
> >
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> > S
> > !
> >
> > goraion wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > > 2. Personality
> >
> > Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are pigheaded, self-righteous, arrogant
> > fools who think that, because they're a little bit stronger than the
> > inners, that they're better suited to the job the inners have been doing
> > stronger than the outers. Never mind the fact that the outers are
> > intruding on inner territory. Never mind that the outers didn't do
> > their job in R of keeping the aliens out of inner space. Never mind
> > that they're a bunch of righteous rich kids who think they can do
> > ones for the job. You'll be hearing that argument a lot from the
> > resident Haruka and Michiru lovers.. Ź_Ź;;
>
Who me..?
...
Yeah, I did. But that's beside the point. ^_^
> --
> --Scortia-chan
> Surprised by the increasing Haruka and Michiru addicts in the
> newsgroup....Michiru, you shall be defended! ^-^
Pffft! Newbies.. They'll change, once they get their S subs.. ^_-
James
..it's just "cool! new senshi! must love!" syndrome.. ^_-
James Helferty
>
> "fwhite*NOSPAM*@colfax.com (Frank White)" said:
>
> >In article <3644B811...@chat.carleton.ca>,
> >jhel...@chat.carleton.ca says...
>
> >> They're the best ones for the job. You'll be hearing that
> >> argument a lot from the resident Haruka and Michiru
> >> lovers.. Ź_Ź;;
> >
> >were convinced they were.
>
> Well, they might not have been the best, but that's the job they were given.
> If they had tried to pass it to the Inners, the H&M haters would be accusing
> them of being cowards.
Of course not. That would've been intelligent. They talk to the
inners, they sit down for a cup of tea and discuss things, Usagi tells
them to keep it up, and it's okay. But to go and do all of this without
the princess' consent....!
James
..oh great, monica lewinski jokes again on Politically Incorrect..
Revolutionary Girl Utena
> Ahhhh...
>
> I have an aversion to pink myself, but I managed to get over
> this bit of amine torture to become a Chibi Usa supporter.
> Heck, I even got over the NA dubbed voice and am currently
> overcoming the original seiyuu's voice (which I think makes Chibi Usa
> sound TOO old.
You're kidding me...Araki Kae sounds at least twenty years younger than
Tracey Hoyt.
*-Gally-*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Moonie Code (1.10.12)
Khaleth
>Tracey Hoyt.
Araki Kae, while she may have an incredibly irritating voice at times, at least
doesn't sound like a 40-year-old woman holding her nose.
| * Neo Sailor Khyron * |
| http://dreams.2launch.com/tiassa/smoon.htm |
| "I activated the thwarting device. Your |
| invasion...has been thwarted." |
| "...oh. Well, that was anticlimactic." |
TCurryFan
>TCurryFan wrote:
>
>> He's made plenty of posts- just not in this thread- that
>> display his feelings about homosexuals. And those feelings
>> are not positive. I'd call that homophobia.
>
>Okay, so I don't display positive feelings about homosexuals
>in general.
No. You display NEGATIVE feelings about them. There's a difference between
not displaying positive feelings and displaying negative feelings about them.
>Of course, I've already mentioned that I'm homophobic. Not
>intensely homophobic, let me tell you. I'm just afraid of a
>homosexual person raping me, that's all.
And why do you assume a gay person's going to rape you?
I mean, I have a better chance of being raped by a man than you do, but I don't
hate men who are attracted to me.
>But I don't think there's such thing as homonymphophobia,
>so I'm resigned to use the all-encompassing term
>"homophobia".
>...
>
>That, and I like the whole.. ambiance.. of the term. Honestly,
>I find it a mildly humorous idea. Can you imagine someone
>who, upon hearing someone say "I'm gay!".. gasps, screams,
>and runs away, hyperventilating, etc... ..
Yes.
Or worse, upon hearing someone say "I'm gay", they beat the crap out of and/or
kill the person. That reaction seems pretty extreme, too.
TCurryFan
>TCurryFan wrote:
>
>> Well, they might not have been the best, but that's the job
>> they were given. If they had tried to pass it to the Inners,
>> the H&M haters would be accusing them of being cowards.
>
>Of course not.
Yeah, right. You'd find fault regardles of what they did.
>That would've been intelligent. They talk to the inners, they
>sit down for a cup of tea and discuss things, Usagi tells them
>to keep it up, and it's okay. But to go and do all of this without the
princess' consent....!
They didn't know she was the princess.
Besides THEY HAD BEEN GIVEN THE JOB. If you're given a job, then someone you
don't know, and who has no authority over you tells you to stop, do you?
mke...@ycp.edu
James Helferty <jhel...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
> You want proof..? I'll give you proof. When those talismans pop out,
> that's all that pops out. No pure heart!
You're wrong. Pure hearts come out, the the pure hearts turn *into* talismans.
Besides, Pluto manages to separate the talismans and the pure hearts, and you
*see* the pure hearts returning to Haruka and Michiru.
Oh, and I've got an avi of Uranus' pure heart being taken and turned into a
talisman on my page --http://coyote.ycp.edu/~mkelly/uratalis.ZIP. Somebody,
somewhere, probably still has Neptune's.
Marie
Marie
Frank White
>
>TCurryFan wrote:
<snip>
>> He's made plenty of posts- just not in this thread- that display his feelings
>> about homosexuals. And those feelings are not positive. I'd call that
>> homophobia.
>
>Okay, so I don't display positive feelings about homosexuals in
>general. Yipee. You know something, though..? I haven't seen Bill
>Clinton display positive feelings about homosexuals either..! And he's
>in the media so much more, too.. Maybe.. [gasp] ..Clinton's
>homophobic..?!?! ^_^
Your memory is faulty. Clinton started off his first term making
positive statements about gays, and even promising to eliminate
discrimination against them in the military. When he ran into
opposition on this and his stance in general, he caved and shut up.
And do you really think you should be comparing yourself to Bill
"I'm an idjit" Clinton? I can think of better people to compare
oneself to.
>Of course, I've already mentioned that I'm homophobic. Not intensely
>homophobic, let me tell you. I'm just afraid of a homosexual person
>raping me, that's all. But I don't think there's such thing as
>homonymphophobia, so I'm resigned to use the all-encompassing term
>"homophobia".
>
>...
>
>That, and I like the whole.. ambiance.. of the term. Honestly, I find
>it a mildly humorous idea. Can you imagine someone who, upon hearing
>someone say "I'm gay!".. gasps, screams, and runs away,
>hyperventilating, etc... ..on a level equivalent to, say,
>arachnophobia..? ^_^ I mean, phobia is such a strong term..
No, not the reactions you describe. I can, however, imagine them
stringing the gay up on a rail fence and beating his head in
with the butt of a gun...
Have you ever read the book "Gentleman's Agreement"? It's an
interesting novel written in the '30's about a writer for a
magazine who, to get the lowdown on anti-Semitism - virtually
a fact of life back in those pre-Holocaust days - posed as a
Jew. And got his eyes jerked wide open by the treatment he
received from others as a result. Since you consider homophobia
such a... humorous... term, why don't you follow the writer's
lead? Start saying you are gay, and in a few months you can come
back to the newsgroup and report all the funny things family,
employers, and those who you think are your friends did when they
heard your annoucement. I'm sure it would be most... entertaining.
FW
h_s...@hotmail.com
no...@cyberverse.com wrote:
> gbe...@kfalls.net wrote:
>
> > they never really put a date on michiru. tim nolan builds a scenario for
her
> > being awakened around the same time as sailor v in his story 'awakening 2'.
> > (which is a basis that i use for my own fanfiction since it is a well
thought
> > out and believeable scenario).
>
> thank you for the plug ;p
<plug! plug!>
>
> and also, it must be noted that as *soon* as michiru and haruka
> meet pluto in episode #111, they *instantly* start to work as a team.
> no introductions, questions, or anything. *instant* teamwork,
> out of the blue, and look at how long it took michiru and haruka
> to warm up to the inners. this is solid, incontrovertible
> proof that the three outers were working together well before
> the S series on a professional and personal level.
Definitely, and I think that it'd be even harder if they -had- tried
to hide their cohesiveness...
>
> that means that michiru and haruka became senshi well before
> the S series, and probably before the first series. the primary
> thing that would have triggered them would have been the lab accident
> where hotaru was killed, and her father sold his soul to get her
> back. that was the first time that any efforts were made by
> anyone from tau ceti in order to gain a foothold for pharoah
> ninety. this happens several years before the first season of
> sailor moon. while it's doubtful that michiru and haruka became
> senshi at that point, it's clear that things changed at that point.
<hehe> Unless we'd like to believe that their... ummmmm... fluidity and
grace are a definite gift from the gods... although, it might be some
ambrosia...
>
> prior to meeting haruka, michiru clearly had been neptune for some
> period of time. this clearly establishes that the outer's first
> appearance in ep#90 was not their first engagement.
>
> > > But how about Pluto? Shouldn't she have been pulling double duty until
> > > the others returned? Heck, she KNOWS this is going to happen--so why
> > > doesn't she awaken Haruka and Michiru, tell them what the heck's gonna
> > > happen, and get on with it..?!
>
> frankly, i'm surprised more people dont' see how much pluto's hands may
> be tied by all these events. certain things need to happen, and if she
> knows about this *and* is free to act, there is no way that any of
> the evets shown in the anime or manga woudl need to happen. anyone
> who can freely make use of time travel < and it can be done without
> her breaking the restrictions in the manga > would have easily
> been able to keep the dark kingdom from taking more then a step
> onto earth. ann and ail would have never noticed this planet.
> the black moon family would have never become a threat in the
> near future, in order to become a threat in the far future.
> the lab accident would never have happened.
Remember also that she's the Guardian of the Gate. No passing in
and out just for the sake of a person.. no matter how important. Her
possible foresight hampers her just as much as hindsight could.
>
> the point should be starting to get clear... a pluto without
> restraints on her would make for a a very peaceful and dull
> life for all of the characters, and that wouldn't make for
> an intersting manga or anime.
Yep... who wants to know the ending when the adventure's in the
'gettin there' part? ^_^
>
> tim nolan
>
Helen
Theresa Ann Wymer
Major Off Topic:
: Okay, so I don't display positive feelings about homosexuals in
: general. Yipee. You know something, though..? I haven't seen Bill
: Clinton display positive feelings about homosexuals either..! And he's
: in the media so much more, too.. Maybe.. [gasp] ..Clinton's
: homophobic..?!?! ^_^
None of this is intended as flaming, and should not be construed in any
way as such.
This is reeealy veering off topic...
As others have pointed out, Clinton actively courted the gay vote back in
1992. Sadly, after the issue of gays and lesbians in the military was so
badly flubbed (IMO), the administration pretty much dropped the whole gay
rights thing. Whether that was a good or bad thing, I leave to the
reader to decide.
He did actually discuss AIDS, something neither of his predecessors did
during the worst parts of the epidemic, and he publically spoke about the
Matthew Shepherd murder. He also had out, as opposed to seriously
closeted, people in various departmental positions (Roberta Achtenberg,
etc.).
: Of course, I've already mentioned that I'm homophobic. Not intensely
: homophobic, let me tell you. I'm just afraid of a homosexual person
: raping me, that's all. But I don't think there's such thing as
: homonymphophobia, so I'm resigned to use the all-encompassing term
: "homophobia".
Well, it's sensible to be afraid of being raped. But in all honesty, I'm
afraid of being raped myself by straight men, but I don't hide in the
house cowering that the next man I see is going to attack me. And I have
never once in my life been attacked by a lesbian (nor a man, for that
matter. I've been lucky).
I don't think it gives a lot of credit to men in general, gay, straight,
or bi, to assume that they are going to sexually assault someone on
sight. Be mentally and physically prepared, sure, but why not give
people the benefit of the doubt? If someone makes an unwelcome advance,
say "no thank you" and leave.
I seriously doubt that you go around assaulting women, so you can
probably assume that most gay men won't assault you. Common sense.
: That, and I like the whole.. ambiance.. of the term. Honestly, I find
: it a mildly humorous idea. Can you imagine someone who, upon hearing
: someone say "I'm gay!".. gasps, screams, and runs away,
: hyperventilating, etc... ..on a level equivalent to, say,
: arachnophobia..? ^_^ I mean, phobia is such a strong term..
Actually, I can. I'll never forget a college acquaintance of mine
picking up a novel I was reading, noted the back blurb said the heroine
left home after being seriously dumped, and asked me what the love
interest was like. I said, "Oh, some girl."
My friend literally paled and backed away from me, her eyes like
saucers. "You...you aren't one of...." she stuttered in shock. I
immediately assured her that no, I wasn't any such thing, feeling like an
utter wuss as I did so.
And this woman and I were friends. But I scared her for no reason, and I
ended up feeling like a liar. And that was just a very mild example. I
have never in my life told anyone else about this incident before.
Don't tell me homophobia doesn't hurt people. It's just as bad as
anti-Semitism or racism.
--
Theresa Ann Wymer twy...@efn.org
Kelly Psul Graham
Revolutionary Girl Utena <jlo...@emory.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.GSO.4.05.98111...@paladin.cc.emory.edu>...
>
> You're kidding me...Araki Kae sounds at least twenty years younger than
> Tracey Hoyt.
>
> *-Gally-*
>
Thje first time I heard the original voice, I tyhought it was
deep enough
to be a twenty-year-old's. And Chibi-Usa is supposed to be... what? the
equivalent of a seven-year-old?
But, I agree... Hoyt makes Chibi sound 20 yrs older than Araki.
Either that,
or Chibi's had throat surgery.
Kelly Paul Graham,
STILL having trouble list3ening top a 5-yr-old's voice come out
of a
14-yr-old's body (Usagi's Seiyuu ).
Revolutionary Girl Utena
So Kotono-san sounds too young, and Kae-san sounds too old? *_* Sheesh.
I think Chibiusa sounds sooooooo much younger than Usagi. And if you
actually listened to some real Japanese teenage girls, you'd see that some
of them do have very high, lilting (slightly affected) voices, like Usagi.
*-Gally-*
who wonders if *_* has been copyrighted by Xplo...
James Helferty
> >> P
> >> O
> >> I
> >> L
> >> E
> >> R
> >> S
> >> O
> >> R
> >> S
> >>
> >> How about; "they're maybe not as bad as I think they are"?
> >
> >Okay, here's my explanation. When the talismans were
> >placed in their pure hearts, which was probably when they
> >were reincarnated, they were probably pure-hearted. Hey,
> >most babies are. But as time went on, things changed. :)
> >
> >pop out, that's all that pops out. No pure heart!
>
> right before they turn into the talismans.
> Try again, James.
Exactly. Their "pure heart crystals" are REALLY the talismans,
disguised as "pure heart crystals." Which means they don't have pure
hearts! Want further proof..? Look at their eyes when the talismans
pop out; do their eyes glaze over? Of course not! Because there's been
no *real* heart crystal extracted..!
This also explains how they can still function as senshi after the
talismans have been extracted. (All the other senshi entered dazed
states upon their talismans being extracted.)
James
..when at first you don't succeed..
James Helferty
>
> In article <364A69EB...@chat.carleton.ca>, jhel...@chat.carleton.ca says...
> >
> >TCurryFan wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> He's made plenty of posts- just not in this thread- that display his feelings
> >> about homosexuals. And those feelings are not positive. I'd call that
> >> homophobia.
> >
> >general. Yipee. You know something, though..? I haven't seen Bill
> >Clinton display positive feelings about homosexuals either..! And he's
> >in the media so much more, too.. Maybe.. [gasp] ..Clinton's
> >homophobic..?!?! ^_^
>
> positive statements about gays, and even promising to eliminate
> discrimination against them in the military. When he ran into
> opposition on this and his stance in general, he caved and shut up.
My mistake. [shrug] But, of course, you can apply the same argument to
a lot of people; I just picked someone at random.
> And do you really think you should be comparing yourself to Bill
> "I'm an idjit" Clinton? I can think of better people to compare
> oneself to.
Bob Dole had already been taken.
> >Of course, I've already mentioned that I'm homophobic. Not intensely
> >homophobic, let me tell you. I'm just afraid of a homosexual person
> >raping me, that's all. But I don't think there's such thing as
> >homonymphophobia, so I'm resigned to use the all-encompassing term
> >"homophobia".
> >
> >...
> >
> >That, and I like the whole.. ambiance.. of the term. Honestly, I find
> >it a mildly humorous idea. Can you imagine someone who, upon hearing
> >someone say "I'm gay!".. gasps, screams, and runs away,
> >hyperventilating, etc... ..on a level equivalent to, say,
> >arachnophobia..? ^_^ I mean, phobia is such a strong term..
>
> No, not the reactions you describe. I can, however, imagine them
> stringing the gay up on a rail fence and beating his head in
> with the butt of a gun...
That's not a phobia. Danged nabbit, you're confusing the cause with the
symptoms. In the case of homophobia, all that's implied is that the
person is afraid of homosexual persons. Nothing more.
What you're describing is what's commonly referred to as "gay bashing".
This and homophobia are NOT the same thing. Homophobia may be the cause
of gay bashing in some instances, but it is not a given that they're
both part and parcel the same thing!
> Have you ever read the book "Gentleman's Agreement"? It's an
[snip]
No, I haven't. I can be depressed easy enough without having to hear
yet another account of Jewish wartime suffering.
Besides, I think there's a great difference between anti-semitism and
modern gay-bashing. Jews couldn't exactly have Jew Rights parades in
downtown Germany..
James
..annoyed at the amount of anti-homophobism displayed by this group..
James Helferty
>
> James Helferty (jhel...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
>
> : Of course, I've already mentioned that I'm homophobic. Not intensely
> : homophobic, let me tell you. I'm just afraid of a homosexual person
> : raping me, that's all. But I don't think there's such thing as
> : homonymphophobia, so I'm resigned to use the all-encompassing term
> : "homophobia".
>
> afraid of being raped myself by straight men, but I don't hide in the
> house cowering that the next man I see is going to attack me. And I have
> never once in my life been attacked by a lesbian (nor a man, for that
> matter. I've been lucky).
>
> I don't think it gives a lot of credit to men in general, gay, straight,
> or bi, to assume that they are going to sexually assault someone on
> sight. Be mentally and physically prepared, sure, but why not give
> people the benefit of the doubt? If someone makes an unwelcome advance,
> say "no thank you" and leave.
>
> I seriously doubt that you go around assaulting women, so you can
> probably assume that most gay men won't assault you. Common sense.
Common sense? Then why are people always telling me not to drop the
soap..?
> : That, and I like the whole.. ambiance.. of the term. Honestly, I find
> : it a mildly humorous idea. Can you imagine someone who, upon hearing
> : someone say "I'm gay!".. gasps, screams, and runs away,
> : hyperventilating, etc... ..on a level equivalent to, say,
> : arachnophobia..? ^_^ I mean, phobia is such a strong term..
>
> Actually, I can. I'll never forget a college acquaintance of mine
> picking up a novel I was reading, noted the back blurb said the heroine
> left home after being seriously dumped, and asked me what the love
> interest was like. I said, "Oh, some girl."
>
> My friend literally paled and backed away from me, her eyes like
> saucers. "You...you aren't one of...." she stuttered in shock. I
> immediately assured her that no, I wasn't any such thing, feeling like an
> utter wuss as I did so.
>
> And this woman and I were friends. But I scared her for no reason, and I
> ended up feeling like a liar. And that was just a very mild example. I
> have never in my life told anyone else about this incident before.
Interesting. That's the first time I've heard of something like that
happening. However, I'd wager that she wasn't ready to send you off to
the death camps if you gave the "wrong" answer.
> Don't tell me homophobia doesn't hurt people. It's just as bad as
> anti-Semitism or racism.
Not true. Maybe as bad as Jewphobia or racialphobia, but not as bad as
anti-Semitism or racism. There's a difference between being afraid of a
sector of the population, and actively engaging in calling down the
wrath of God, government, and society on said sector of the population.
If phobias were on the same level as witchhunts, then yes, maybe I could
see the connection you're drawing on, but they aren't. After all, I
mean, what would people who were necrophobic do..? Kill the dead body
that's scaring the wits out of them..?
James
..wondering if foodphobia is possible..
James Helferty
> >> display his feelings about homosexuals. And those feelings
> >> are not positive. I'd call that homophobia.
> >
> >Okay, so I don't display positive feelings about homosexuals
> >in general.
>
> not displaying positive feelings and displaying negative feelings about them.
I display negative feelings about them..? Not that I can recall..
[frown] You want to give some textual proof to back up that statement,
TCF..?
> >Of course, I've already mentioned that I'm homophobic. Not
> >intensely homophobic, let me tell you. I'm just afraid of a
> >homosexual person raping me, that's all.
>
> And why do you assume a gay person's going to rape you?
> I mean, I have a better chance of being raped by a man than you do, but I don't
> hate men who are attracted to me.
[wince] You're jumping to conclusions again. I don't HATE people who
are gay, I'm just afraid of them. There's a difference. Get it through
your head already.
> >But I don't think there's such thing as homonymphophobia,
> >so I'm resigned to use the all-encompassing term
> >"homophobia".
> >...
> >
> >That, and I like the whole.. ambiance.. of the term. Honestly,
> >I find it a mildly humorous idea. Can you imagine someone
> >who, upon hearing someone say "I'm gay!".. gasps, screams,
> >and runs away, hyperventilating, etc... ..
>
> Yes.
> Or worse, upon hearing someone say "I'm gay", they beat the crap out of and/or
> kill the person. That reaction seems pretty extreme, too.
Gosh, I'm afraid of something, so automatically I want to kill it..?
That's not the way I react. Is that the way you react, TCF? Because,
if so, remind me not to ever go Trick or Treat'n in your neighbourhood..
James
..hmm.. sugar..
James Helferty
> >> they were given. If they had tried to pass it to the Inners,
> >> the H&M haters would be accusing them of being cowards.
> >
> >Of course not.
>
> Yeah, right. You'd find fault regardles of what they did.
Of course not. There are several things they do extremely well, I'll
admit. I just have a problem with their approach to solving the problem
in S.
> >That would've been intelligent. They talk to the inners, they
> >sit down for a cup of tea and discuss things, Usagi tells them
> >to keep it up, and it's okay. But to go and do all of this without the
> princess' consent....!
>
> They didn't know she was the princess.
> Besides THEY HAD BEEN GIVEN THE JOB. If you're given a job, then someone you
> don't know, and who has no authority over you tells you to stop, do you?
They didn't even ask her under whose authority she was giving the orders
by. If they'd asked, then maybe they would've found out who exactly was
telling them to back off.
James
..food.. must.. eat..
James Helferty
>
> I hate to restate a lot of what has already been said, but there are a
> few other things I want to point out.
Ditto.
> On Sat, 07 Nov 1998 16:13:53 -0500, James Helferty
> <jhel...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
> >S SPOILERS!!
> >
> >S
> >P
> >O
> >I
> >L
> >E
> >R
> >S
> >!
> >!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >goraion wrote:
> >>
> >> How do the Outer Senshi differ from the Inner Senshi in Sailormoon in terms
> >> of:
> >>
> >> 1. Relationships with other characters
> >
> >Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are gay. At the beginning, Sailor
> >Pluto and Sailor Saturn don't really have any friends.
>
> Sailor Neptune and Sailor Uranus are in a loving relationship,
> something you obviously have trouble with since every second post you
> make you mention you're homophobic. Fine, but shut up about it for a
> change.
I was playing for laughs. It's a tough crowd in here.
> Anyway, Haruka and Michiru are in love with each other, but because of
> the nature of their mission they are reluctant to get close to anyone
> else because that person might get hurt.
>
> Setsuna has a very lonely post, and is friends with Small Lady.
>
> Hotaru is an invalid and doesn't socialize, but makes friends with
> Chibiusa because she admires her.
>
> >> 2. Personality
> >
> >Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are pigheaded, self-righteous, arrogant
> >fools
>
> They are confident, a bit arrogant (but would you not be if the fate
> of the world depended on you?), but they are not self-righteous and
> they are not stupid.
I don't recall calling them stupid. Just fools. And they are
self-righteous. "We are right, you are wrong, stay out of it."
> >who think that, because they're a little bit stronger than the
> >inners, that they're better suited to the job the inners have been doing
> >for the last few years.
>
> When they received their mission, (which might I add is completely
> different than that of the inners because the inners never heard of
> the talismans before) they had no idea there were other sailor senshi.
> So how could they usurp the inners' role?
You're telling me that a troupe of five sailor senshi have been running
around Tokyo for at least two years, flashing people while fighting
villains, and not one paper has noticed..? Or that the two outers are
so caught up in their "save the world" thing that they never bother to
check the newspaper to see what's going on..?
I was under the impression that there was very little crime in Japan.
Which means that any crime would probably be very big news.
> >Never mind that the inners are collectively
> >stronger than the outers.
>
> Inners outnumber the outers, and the inners have the advantage of
> Sailor Moon, so duh. Strength has nothing to do with anything.
Exactly. So they're a stronger fighting force.
> >Never mind the fact that the outers are
> >intruding on inner territory.
>
> The outers are doing their job, a specific job mind you, while the
> inners are just stumbling along trying to figure out what's happening.
..so they can protect their princess.
> >Never mind that the outers didn't do
> >their job in R of keeping the aliens out of inner space.
>
> Do I really need to remind you that the outers were never even thought
> of until the third season of the manga, so therefore they did not
> exist in R?
[cough]Lunaball..[cough]
> >Never mind
> >that they're a bunch of righteous rich kids who think they can do
> >whatever the hell they want to achieve their goals.
>
> No, they think they have to do what they can to complete their
> mission. Remember the part about saving the world? They are given no
> reason to think that anyone else can do the job better than they can.
So they automatically assume they're the best ones for the job? Man,
those Japanese must have a really crappy defense system, then..
> >They're the best
> >ones for the job. You'll be hearing that argument a lot from the
> >resident Haruka and Michiru lovers.. Ź_Ź;;
>
> They're the most logical choice for the job. In the real world, they
> would be the best for the job.
Only because they're the only ones that "know" what's going on. I mean,
if you told the government, my guess is that they could send in some
swat teams or something to do essentially the same job.
Anyone else wonder what Mulder and Scully would think if they found out
about a beast about to be summoned from another solar system light years
away by some crazed professor who sold his soul to revive his daughter's
life..?
> >> 3. Role in Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
> >
> >They're supposed to be guarding the solar system against attacks from
> >outside the solar system. Instead, they suddenly decide that it'd be
> >better if they come to Earth, and screw everything up on the inners.
> ><rant> After all, if they hadn't returned to Earth, there never would've
> >been the problem of Mistress 9, etc.. </rant>
>
> In that case, then why should the outers have helped against the
> aliens in R? It's all the inners' fault for Queen Beryl attacking and
> the aliens draining so much energy.
Fill me in; in the original, where exactly were Queen Beryl and her
friends..? They weren't supposed to be already on Earth, were they?
> The outers were trying to *stop* Mistress 9 from awakening. Thanks to
> Sailor Moon, she awoke anyway.
Way to go Sailor Moon..! Woohooo!
> >> By watching the Sailormoon S series, I get the impression that the
> >> personalities of Sailorneptune and Sailoruranus are insensitive, especially
> >> the episode where Haruka took Usagi's transformation brooch by force and
> >> threaten to kill her if she interfere. Or another when Haruka and Michiru
> >> ignored Sailormoon when she found out that they are Neptune and Uranus.
> >
> >I'd tell you, but then I'd be accused of being an insensitive jerk who
> >was hiding behind his homophobia and not seeing the facts clearly.
>
> Insenstive kind of fits, but I think narrow-minded fits better. Jerk
> fits. Homophobic, who cares? It doesn't have to colour your every
> opinion in life. And no, you're not seeing the facts clearly. Hell,
> I doubt you can even see the facts.
Not for another few weeks.
> >James
> >..who's being discriminated against, I ask..
>
> God, you're a hypocrite. If you're so persecuted, then why can't you
> have a little more depth and understanding towards others? Do you
> even like *any* of the Sailor Moon characters?
Actually, I was implying that the outers were discriminating against the
inners... er... well, attempting to imply that... [frown]
And yes, I'm a big fan of Sailor Jupiter. Thing is, I'd be a much
bigger fan of Michiru and Haruka, (perhaps even to the point that they
were my favorite senshi) if it weren't for one or two minor/major
foibles I have with the pair..
> James, normally I enjoy reading your posts. But this has got to be
> the more ignorant thing you have ever posted.
Not true. I knew exactly what I was typing at every minute I was typing
it. ^_^
James
..no, fingers, type a 'g', not a 's'.. aw maaan..
TCurryFan
>TCurryFan wrote:
>> "James Helferty <jhel...@chat.carleton.ca>" said:
>> >TCurryFan wrote:
>> >> S
>> >> P
>> >> O
>> >> I
>> >> L
>> >> E
>> >> R
>> >> S
>> >> F
>> >> O
>> >> R
>> >> S
>> >>
>> >> How about; "they're maybe not as bad as I think they
>> >> are"?
>> >
>> >Okay, here's my explanation. When the talismans were
>> >placed in their pure hearts, which was probably when
>> >they were reincarnated, they were probably
>> >pure-hearted. Hey, most babies are. But as time went on,
>> >things changed. :)
>> >
>> >You want proof..? I'll give you proof. When those
>> >talismans pop out, that's all that pops out. No pure heart!
>>
>> Nopers. I just checked... We can QUITE CLEARLY see
>> their pure heart crystals; right before they turn into the
>> talismans.
>> Try again, James.
>
>Exactly. Their "pure heart crystals" are REALLY the
>talismans,
No s***, Sherlock. That's how it WORKS.
>disguised as "pure heart crystals."
Prove that it's just a disguise.
>Which means they don't have pure hearts! Want further
>proof..? Look at their eyes when the talismans pop out; do
>their eyes glaze over? Of course not! Because there's been
>no *real* heart crystal extracted..!
It proves nothing. Neptune's eyes aren't even seen, and you could argue that
Uranus has enough will power to fight being killed/whatever by her heart being
removed. Their eyes not glazing over doesn't mean a damn thing, Or more
correctly, you can make it mean anything you want you.
>This also explains how they can still function as senshi after
>the talismans have been extracted. (All the other senshi
>entered dazed states upon their talismans being extracted.)
No... U&N collapsed, like most other people who lost their heart crystal.
Then Pluto gave them BACK their pure hearts (tyou know-the things you said were
just a disguise?). We see them again, very clearly, going back into U&N's
bodies. I had an AVI of the scene where it happens. AND I've seen that epsiode
a few times. So I've seen that scene about a zillion times.
James, why don't you actually try WATCHING the episodes, and PAYING ATTENTION
to them before trying to argue this?
>James
>..when at first you don't succeed..
If at second you don't sucedeed...
Catherine Johnson. And don't expect the third time to be the charm, either.
TCurryFan
>Not true. Maybe as bad as Jewphobia or racialphobia, but
>not as bad as anti-Semitism or racism. There's a difference
>between being afraid of a sector of the population, and
>actively engaging in calling down the wrath of God,
>government, and society on said sector of the population.
Yep. And this happens to gays all the time. What's your point?
>If phobias were on the same level as witchhunts, then yes,
>maybe I could see the connection you're drawing on, but >they aren't.
Being afraid of something can lead you to want to exterminate it. Why do you
think no one cares if they see a shark is kiilled, but most wouldn't dream of
killing a dolphin (dolphin-safe tuna? Nice for the dolphins- bad for the
tuna...)? People are afraid of sharks, so they don't care if they die; and
sometimes actively seek to kill them. And many people who are afraid of gay
people actively seek to kill THEM. Ask Matthew Shepard. Oh, wait, you can't-
he was KILLED by two homophobes...
>James
Catherine Johnson.
TCurryFan
>TCurryFan wrote:
>> "James Helferty <jhel...@chat.carleton.ca>" said:
>> >TCurryFan wrote:
>> >
>> >> He's made plenty of posts- just not in this thread- that
>> >> display his feelings about homosexuals. And those
>> >> feelings are not positive. I'd call that homophobia.
>> >
>> >Okay, so I don't display positive feelings about
>> >homosexuals in general.
>>
>> No. You display NEGATIVE feelings about them.
>> There's a difference between not displaying positive
>> feelings and displaying negative feelings about them.
>
>I display negative feelings about them..? Not that I can
>recall.. [frown] You want to give some textual proof to back
>up that statement, TCF..?
This post?
"I don't HATE people who are gay, I'm just afraid of them"
I'd call that pretty negative.
And the fact that you don't SEE that as negative is pretty sad...
>> >Of course, I've already mentioned that I'm homophobic.
>> >Not intensely homophobic, let me tell you. I'm just afraid
>> >of a homosexual person raping me, that's all.
>>
>> And why do you assume a gay person's going to rape you?
>> I mean, I have a better chance of being raped by a man
>> than you do, but I don't hate men who are attracted to me.
>
>[wince] You're jumping to conclusions again. I don't HATE
>people who
>are gay, I'm just afraid of them.
Ok, fine, let me rephrase:
And why do you assume a gay person's going to rape you?
I mean, I have a better chance of being raped by a man
than you do, but I'm not afraid of all men who are attracted to me
Now answer the question, please.
>There's a difference. Get it through your head already.
I did. Now answer the question, already.
>> >I find it a mildly humorous idea. Can you imagine
>> >someone who, upon hearing someone say "I'm gay!"..
>> >gasps, screams, and runs away, hyperventilating, etc... ..
>>
>> Yes.
>> Or worse, upon hearing someone say "I'm gay", they beat
>> the crap out of and/or kill the person. That reaction seems >> pretty
extreme, too.
>
>Gosh, I'm afraid of something, so automatically I want to kill
>it..?
I never said YOU did I?
But there are those who *do* react to fear with violence.
>That's not the way I react. Is that the way you react, TCF?
>Because, if so, remind me not to ever go Trick or Treat'n in
>your neighbourhood..
Fuck you, asshole.
TCurryFan
>TCurryFan wrote:
>> "James Helferty <jhel...@chat.carleton.ca>" said:
>> >TCurryFan wrote:
>> >
>> >> Well, they might not have been the best, but that's the
>> >> job they were given. If they had tried to pass it to the
>> >> Inners, the H&M haters would be accusing them of
>> >> being cowards.
>> >
>> >Of course not.
>>
>> Yeah, right. You'd find fault regardles of what they did.
>
>Of course not. There are several things they do extremely
>well, I'll admit.
Name one.
>I just have a problem with their approach to solving the
>problem in S.
And I don't agree.
>> >That would've been intelligent. They talk to the inners,
>> >they sit down for a cup of tea and discuss things, Usagi
>> >tells them to keep it up, and it's okay. But to go and do all
>> >of this without the princess' consent....!
>>
>> They didn't know she was the princess.
>> Besides THEY HAD BEEN GIVEN THE JOB. If you're
>> given a job, then someone you don't know, and who has no
>> authority over you tells you to stop, do you?
>
>They didn't even ask her under whose authority she was
>giving the orders by. If they'd asked, then maybe they
>would've found out who exactly was telling them to back off.
I could say the same things about Usagi-tachi.
TCurryFan
>Erin Gayle with her Beauty Change Uranus doll ^_^ wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 07 Nov 1998 16:13:53 -0500, James Helferty
>> <jhel...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >S SPOILERS!!
>> >
>> >S
>> >P
>> >O
>> >I
>> >L
>> >E
>> >R
>> >S
>> >!
>> >!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >goraion wrote:
>
>> >Never mind the fact that the outers are
>> >intruding on inner territory.
>>
>> The outers are doing their job, a specific job mind you,
>> while the inners are just stumbling along trying to figure out
>> what's happening.
>
>..so they can protect their princess.
How does keeping U&N from getting the talismans protect Usagi?
>> They're the most logical choice for the job. In the real
>> world, they would be the best for the job.
>
>Only because they're the only ones that "know" what's going
>on. I mean, if you told the government, my guess is that they
>could send in some swat teams or something to do essentially
>the same job.
Yeah, right... And they get the talimans... How?
>Anyone else wonder what Mulder and Scully would think if
>they found out about a beast about to be summoned from
>another solar system light years away by some crazed
>professor who sold his soul to revive his daughter's life..?
No. Because it's irrelevent. This is SM, not _The_X-Files_
<oh, and "revive his daughter's life" is redundant>
>Fill me in; in the original, where exactly were Queen Beryl
>and her friends..? They weren't supposed to be already on
>Earth, were they?
Yes. As was said- I think in this very thread- Metallia is from the sun.
Beryl-tachi were recruited from Earth.
Trixie
<jhel...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
>Erin Gayle with her Beauty Change Uranus doll ^_^ wrote:
>> James Helferty wrote:
>>
>> >S SPOILERS!!
>> >
>> >S
>> >P
>> >O
>> >I
>> >L
>> >E
>> >R
>> >S
>> >!
>> >!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >who think that, because they're a little bit stronger than the
>> >inners, that they're better suited to the job the inners have been doing
>> >for the last few years.
>>
>> When they received their mission, (which might I add is completely
>> different than that of the inners because the inners never heard of
>> the talismans before) they had no idea there were other sailor senshi.
>> So how could they usurp the inners' role?
>
>You're telling me that a troupe of five sailor senshi have been running
>around Tokyo for at least two years, flashing people while fighting
>villains, and not one paper has noticed..? Or that the two outers are
>so caught up in their "save the world" thing that they never bother to
>check the newspaper to see what's going on..?
>
>I was under the impression that there was very little crime in Japan.
>Which means that any crime would probably be very big news.
Perhaps you should post that statement on soc.culture.japan. Of course a
big city like Tokyo has plenty of crime.
There is evidence of media reports about the inner senshi. But, Sailor
Uranus and Neptune could've concluded that these people... if they were
really sailor senshi [remember "Sailor Zoisite" made the news].... were
working on a specific and unrelated mission. It is logical they would
think this given they themselves were working on a specific mission. They
had no way of knowing what the other senshi's mission might be.
The reports would probably be just something like "citizens report monster
attack, sailor soldiers intervene." So, all Uranus and Neptune could get
out of that is the inners fight monsters. But, it *doesn't* tell them
these monsters were sent by a villainous group bent on taking over the
Earth or that Sailor Moon wielding her powerful crystal saved the world.
>> No, they think they have to do what they can to complete their
>> mission. Remember the part about saving the world? They are given no
>> reason to think that anyone else can do the job better than they can.
>
>So they automatically assume they're the best ones for the job? Man,
>those Japanese must have a really crappy defense system, then..
What makes you think the JSDF [which is not that great] or any other
military force could do anything about it? If they could, why were any of
the sailor senshi awakened?
When Luna awakens Sailor Moon she tells her, "the police can't do anything
about it." Granted, she didn't specifically mention the military, but I
believe the significance of her statement is only the sailor senshi can
fight a supernatural menace.
>Anyone else wonder what Mulder and Scully would think if they found out
>about a beast about to be summoned from another solar system light years
>away by some crazed professor who sold his soul to revive his daughter's
>life..?
Mulder and Scully can't always do anything about the things they uncover,
even on their own show. Brought into the Sailor Moon world, probably all
they could do would be some investigative work. Now, before you start
saying well if Mulder and Scully could investigate why can't Haruka and
Michiru. Haruka and Michiru do try, but unlike Mulder and Scully they
don't have the benefit of extensive training by the FBI. Scully is an M.D.
and it can be presumed that Mulder is also well educated. Additionally, it
is stated in the show they have years of experience at their jobs. Haruka
and Michiru are smart, but they're still going to high school and AFAIK
high school doesn't offer anything like FBI training.
Trixie
mke...@ycp.edu
> >> >> P
> >> >> O
> >> >> I
> >> >> L
> >> >> E
> >> >> R
> >> >> S
> >> >> O
> >> >> R
> >> >> S
> Prove that it's just a disguise.
>
> >Which means they don't have pure hearts! Want further
> >proof..? Look at their eyes when the talismans pop out; do
> >their eyes glaze over?
Hmmm...maybe it's just me, but this is the URL of a screenshot taken of a
hcless Uranus. Looks pretty glazed over to me.
http://coyote.ycp.edu/~mkelly/sm111ura04.jpg
> > Of course not! Because there's been no *real* heart crystal extracted..!
All right. Your eyes have to glaze over and you have to die. What about
Unazaki? She wanted to kiss somebody, not die quietly. Does she not have a
real heart crystal?
>No... U&N collapsed, like most other people who lost their heart crystal.
>Then Pluto gave them BACK their pure hearts (tyou know-the things you said were
>just a disguise?). We see them again, very clearly, going back into U&N's
>bodies. I had an AVI of the scene where it happens. AND I've seen that epsiode
>a few times. So I've seen that scene about a zillion times.
Me, too. (For both of them.) I think there have been two different avis made
of that scene. One of that and the revelation of the Holy Grail, and one just
of the return. I think. I know the second one exists. (Hell, I made it.)
Marie
C Wong
James Helferty <jhel...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
>Theresa Ann Wymer wrote:
>>
>> James Helferty (jhel...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
>>
>> : homophobic, let me tell you. I'm just afraid of a homosexual person
>> : homonymphophobia, so I'm resigned to use the all-encompassing term
>> : "homophobia".
>>
>> afraid of being raped myself by straight men, but I don't hide in the
>> house cowering that the next man I see is going to attack me. And I have
>> never once in my life been attacked by a lesbian (nor a man, for that
>> matter. I've been lucky).
>>
>> I don't think it gives a lot of credit to men in general, gay, straight,
>> or bi, to assume that they are going to sexually assault someone on
>> sight. Be mentally and physically prepared, sure, but why not give
>> people the benefit of the doubt? If someone makes an unwelcome advance,
>> say "no thank you" and leave.
>>
>> I seriously doubt that you go around assaulting women, so you can
>> probably assume that most gay men won't assault you. Common sense.
>
>Common sense? Then why are people always telling me not to drop the
>soap..?
>
>
>> : it a mildly humorous idea. Can you imagine someone who, upon hearing
>> : someone say "I'm gay!".. gasps, screams, and runs away,
>> : arachnophobia..? ^_^ I mean, phobia is such a strong term..
>>
>> Actually, I can. I'll never forget a college acquaintance of mine
>> picking up a novel I was reading, noted the back blurb said the heroine
>> left home after being seriously dumped, and asked me what the love
>> interest was like. I said, "Oh, some girl."
>>
>> My friend literally paled and backed away from me, her eyes like
>> saucers. "You...you aren't one of...." she stuttered in shock. I
>> immediately assured her that no, I wasn't any such thing, feeling like an
>> utter wuss as I did so.
>>
>> And this woman and I were friends. But I scared her for no reason, and I
>> ended up feeling like a liar. And that was just a very mild example. I
>> have never in my life told anyone else about this incident before.
>
>Interesting. That's the first time I've heard of something like that
>happening. However, I'd wager that she wasn't ready to send you off to
>the death camps if you gave the "wrong" answer.
>
>
>> anti-Semitism or racism.
>
>Not true. Maybe as bad as Jewphobia or racialphobia, but not as bad as
>sector of the population, and actively engaging in calling down the
>wrath of God, government, and society on said sector of the population.
>
>mean, what would people who were necrophobic do..? Kill the dead body
>that's scaring the wits out of them..?
>
>
>James
>..wondering if foodphobia is possible..
The interesting thing about the reason you offered for
homophobia is that "man-hating feminists" could you the
same reason for their phobia against men. They're afraid
of getting raped by straight men. Furthermore, since the
large majority of men are straight, then it's rational
for them to be afraid of all men since it's hard to
figure out who's gay and who's straight.
Also, one uses the word "phobia" to imply that their
aversion to somethings or some people is irrational.
By agreeing that you're a homophobe, you're agreeing
to the fact that your aversion to homosexuals is
irrational and stupid. Personally, I have something
against irrationality and stupidity. Judging from
your posts in this thread, my guess is you don't.
Of course, I don't expect you to stop being a homophobe
or even try to stop being a homophobe. That's because,
as Weemba would say, you're a self-made retard.
Trixie
tcur...@aol.com.net (TCurryFan) wrote:
>"James Helferty <jhel...@chat.carleton.ca>" said:
>>TCurryFan wrote:
>>> James Helferty wrote:
>>I display negative feelings about them..? Not that I can
>>recall.. [frown] You want to give some textual proof to back
>>up that statement, TCF..?
>
>This post?
>"I don't HATE people who are gay, I'm just afraid of them"
>I'd call that pretty negative.
>And the fact that you don't SEE that as negative is pretty sad...
Also, James, repeatedly calling yourself a homophobe seems to indicate
negative feelings. Maybe you just mean this as a joke. Maybe you don't
mean the term the same way most people use it. But, you see how people are
taking it... maybe you should stop using it if you don't really feel or
behave in the way typically associated with homophobes.
>
>>> >Of course, I've already mentioned that I'm homophobic.
>>> >Not intensely homophobic, let me tell you. I'm just afraid
>>> >of a homosexual person raping me, that's all.
>>>
>>> And why do you assume a gay person's going to rape you?
>>> I mean, I have a better chance of being raped by a man
>>> than you do, but I don't hate men who are attracted to me.
>>
>>[wince] You're jumping to conclusions again. I don't HATE
>>people who
>>are gay, I'm just afraid of them.
>
>Ok, fine, let me rephrase:
>And why do you assume a gay person's going to rape you?
>I mean, I have a better chance of being raped by a man
>than you do, but I'm not afraid of all men who are attracted to me
>Now answer the question, please.
Well... rapists don't have to be attracted to their victims. Rapists just
have to want to rape somebody and some of them will rape the first person
they find. "Straight" men have raped other men, gay and straight, in
addition to women.
As for gay male rapists... I'm not sure they're very common. First of all,
homosexual men represent a minority among men and rapists represent a
minority among men. Therefore the number of homosexual rapists can be
assumed to be quite small.
I live in a city with a significant gay population. I've never heard of a
gay rapist [that is not the same as saying there aren't any], but I have
heard of gay men being raped by "straight" men. Of course, the most common
type of rapist I hear about is a man who is raping women [sometimes after
breaking into the woman's home]. And we seem to have an awful lot of that
variety [many of which severely beat and/or kill their victims], but I
have not yet become a man-a-phobe due to this.
Taking your statement that you fear homosexuals because gay men might rape
you... I'm still confused about what you have against lesbians. I think
this is another reason why people are interpreting your repeated use of
the word "homophobe" to describe yourself as meaning more than fear.
Trixie
Theresa Ann Wymer
: > >TCurryFan wrote:
: > >> S
: > >> P
: > >> O
: > >> I
: > >> L
: > >> E
: > >> R
: > >> S
: > >> F
: > >> O
: > >> R
: > >> S
: > >>
: Exactly. Their "pure heart crystals" are REALLY the talismans,
: disguised as "pure heart crystals." Which means they don't have pure
: hearts! Want further proof..? Look at their eyes when the talismans
: pop out; do their eyes glaze over? Of course not! Because there's been
: no *real* heart crystal extracted..!
Hmm? Michiru was down for the count when her heart crystal emerged. We
didn't see her eyes, because they were closed. Personally, I think she
was having some sort of out of body experience and having a heated
argument with her guardian about ethics and morality, but that's just my
weird take on things.
Haruka's eyes weren't glazed, that's true, but she was clearly speaking
with a great deal of effort and was obviously dying. That was a deathbed
speech she was giving Usagi.
: This also explains how they can still function as senshi after the
: talismans have been extracted. (All the other senshi entered dazed
: states upon their talismans being extracted.)
Uh, they were sprawled comatose (if not actually dead) on the floor,
while the Inners chased Eudial. Also, Minako seemed pretty perky for
someone who'd had her heart ripped out of her body.
Bear in mind that it wasn't until Pluto revived both Uranus and Neptune,
replacing their heart crystals, that they all stood up and summoned the
Chalice. I also thought they were all in a trance state while they did this.
Revolutionary Girl Utena
> TCurryFan wrote:
> >
> > "James Helferty <jhel...@chat.carleton.ca>" said:
> >
> > >TCurryFan wrote:
> > >> S
> > >> P
> > >> O
> > >> I
> > >> L
> > >> E
> > >> R
> > >> S
> > >> F
> > >> O
> > >> R
> > >> S
> > >>
> > >> How about; "they're maybe not as bad as I think they are"?
> > >
> > >Okay, here's my explanation. When the talismans were
> > >placed in their pure hearts, which was probably when they
> > >were reincarnated, they were probably pure-hearted. Hey,
> > >most babies are. But as time went on, things changed. :)
> > >
> > >You want proof..? I'll give you proof. When those talismans
> > >pop out, that's all that pops out. No pure heart!
> >
> > Nopers. I just checked... We can QUITE CLEARLY see their pure heart
> > crystals; right before they turn into the talismans.
> > Try again, James.
>
> Exactly. Their "pure heart crystals" are REALLY the talismans,
> disguised as "pure heart crystals." Which means they don't have pure
> hearts! Want further proof..? Look at their eyes when the talismans
> pop out; do their eyes glaze over? Of course not! Because there's been
> no *real* heart crystal extracted..!
You can clearly see the heart crystals reentering their bodies in episode
111. Their heart crystals were not REPLACED by the Talisman, they became
BOUND TO the Talisman when the pair were reincarnated in the 20th century.
Pluto had the power to separate the Talismans from the pure hearts, and
she returns the crystals to their bodies. THIS is what causes them to
reawaken in 111.
> This also explains how they can still function as senshi after the
> talismans have been extracted. (All the other senshi entered dazed
> states upon their talismans being extracted.)
Some victims were extremely lively after being deprived of their heart
crystals. Minako ran a few blocks in 109, giggling all the way.
Kakusui, the monk from episode 105, was able to talk. Unazuki struggled
violently with the other girls and tried to kiss them in 94. Heart
crystal deprivation doesn't seem to have the same effects for everyone.
When an anime character's eyes glaze over, it's just a visual signal that
they are shocked, possessed or traumatized -- suffering some sort of
extreme stress. The fact that Haruka's eyes are clear (and we never see
Michiru's eyes, do we?) has no relevance to the purity of her heart. It
just means that she was not instantly put into shock by the removal of her
heart crystal.
*-Gally-*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Moonie Code (1.10.12)
SM:5+ F:sVe>+[+]Ur>+[+]:vAiAl:aAr:p[S][*] D:sNe<Ta-:vKa-Tn-
X:a61s++|67d+:m16r|79s O:d[-]:s-:o-:a-:h
Theresa Ann Wymer
: >
: > I don't think it gives a lot of credit to men in general, gay, straight,
: > or bi, to assume that they are going to sexually assault someone on
: > sight. Be mentally and physically prepared, sure, but why not give
: > people the benefit of the doubt? If someone makes an unwelcome advance,
: > say "no thank you" and leave.
: >
: > I seriously doubt that you go around assaulting women, so you can
: > probably assume that most gay men won't assault you. Common sense.
: Common sense? Then why are people always telling me not to drop the
: soap..?
*shrug* I don't know who's told you that, so I can't say. Perhaps as a
joke? An urban legend taken seriously? Rampant paranoia? What *does*
happen if you bend over to pick up the soap in a public shower? And to
be honest, how often does this happen, anyway?
[snipped personal anecdote about my friend]
: > And this woman and I were friends. But I scared her for no reason, and I
: > ended up feeling like a liar. And that was just a very mild example. I
: > have never in my life told anyone else about this incident before.
: Interesting. That's the first time I've heard of something like that
: happening. However, I'd wager that she wasn't ready to send you off to
: the death camps if you gave the "wrong" answer.
No, probably not. She wasn't that sort of person. But some people are.
Just ask anyone who's lost a job due to rumors about being a gay person,
or anyone who's been physically assaulted because someone thought he or
she had the wrong walk. I'm not trying to dredge up ridiculous
possibilities here. I wish this were a joke, but it's not. Hell, just
look at laws that have been passed, or were up for a vote. The Briggs
Amendment in California in 1978, Oregon's Measure 9 in 1992.
: > Don't tell me homophobia doesn't hurt people. It's just as bad as
: > anti-Semitism or racism.
: Not true. Maybe as bad as Jewphobia or racialphobia, but not as bad as
: anti-Semitism or racism. There's a difference between being afraid of a
: sector of the population, and actively engaging in calling down the
: wrath of God, government, and society on said sector of the population.
True, but I don't understand the sense of being afraid of gay men and
lesbisns in the first place. And it's all well and good if one doesn't
lead to the other, but far too often it does.
: If phobias were on the same level as witchhunts, then yes, maybe I could
: see the connection you're drawing on, but they aren't. After all, I
: mean, what would people who were necrophobic do..? Kill the dead body
: that's scaring the wits out of them..?
Ohh...but gaybashing *has* been all too close to the level of witch
hunting throughout history. The US's McCarthy era, Germany in the late
1930s and 1940s, and England during the Regency period. Just to name
three times and places in history where it was actively dangerous to be
gay. Okay, so in the 1950s the state wouldn't legally murder you, but
many, many people, men and women both, lost their jobs and reputation
because they were, or were said to be, gay. It's very easy to do
research on these and other periods, and there was quite clearly
legislated discrimination to one degree or other.
: James
: ..wondering if foodphobia is possible..
Hmm. Could be, for a serious anorexic.
Revolutionary Girl Utena
> James
> ..annoyed at the amount of anti-homophobism displayed by this group..
A phobia is defined as "an exaggerated, usually inexplicable, and
illogical fear." So if you identify yourself as a homophobe, you are
acknowledging that your fears are completely unfounded.
Homophobia is equivalent to racism, sexism, or any other form of
discrimination. I'm sure that many people on this newsgroup would be
offended if someone had said, "I'm annoyed at the amount on anti-racism
displayed by this group."
Revolutionary Girl Utena
> Theresa Ann Wymer wrote:
> >
> > James Helferty (jhel...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> >
> > : Of course, I've already mentioned that I'm homophobic. Not intensely
> > : homophobic, let me tell you. I'm just afraid of a homosexual person
> > : raping me, that's all. But I don't think there's such thing as
> > : homonymphophobia, so I'm resigned to use the all-encompassing term
> > : "homophobia".
> >
> > Well, it's sensible to be afraid of being raped. But in all honesty, I'm
> > afraid of being raped myself by straight men, but I don't hide in the
> > house cowering that the next man I see is going to attack me. And I have
> > never once in my life been attacked by a lesbian (nor a man, for that
> > matter. I've been lucky).
> >
> > I don't think it gives a lot of credit to men in general, gay, straight,
> > or bi, to assume that they are going to sexually assault someone on
> > sight. Be mentally and physically prepared, sure, but why not give
> > people the benefit of the doubt? If someone makes an unwelcome advance,
> > say "no thank you" and leave.
> >
> > I seriously doubt that you go around assaulting women, so you can
> > probably assume that most gay men won't assault you. Common sense.
>
> Common sense? Then why are people always telling me not to drop the
> soap..?
Because other people are just as homophobic and narrow-minded as you are?
Well, I've been told to hold my purse tighter whenever I walk past a black
man on the street and lock my car doors when I drive through a black
neighborhood. But do I let the racist attitudes of other people influence
my actions? No.
> > : That, and I like the whole.. ambiance.. of the term. Honestly, I
> > : find it a mildly humorous idea. Can you imagine someone who, upon
> > : hearing someone say "I'm gay!".. gasps, screams, and runs away,
> > : hyperventilating, etc... ..on a level equivalent to, say,
> > : arachnophobia..? ^_^ I mean, phobia is such a strong term..
> >
> > Actually, I can. I'll never forget a college acquaintance of mine
> > picking up a novel I was reading, noted the back blurb said the
> > heroine left home after being seriously dumped, and asked me what the
> > love interest was like. I said, "Oh, some girl."
> >
> > My friend literally paled and backed away from me, her eyes like
> > saucers. "You...you aren't one of...." she stuttered in shock. I
> > immediately assured her that no, I wasn't any such thing, feeling like
> > an utter wuss as I did so.
> >
> > And this woman and I were friends. But I scared her for no reason,
> > and I ended up feeling like a liar. And that was just a very mild
> > example. I have never in my life told anyone else about this incident
> > before.
>
> Interesting. That's the first time I've heard of something like that
> happening. However, I'd wager that she wasn't ready to send you off
> to the death camps if you gave the "wrong" answer.
Well, some people do retaliate violently against gays. Others just
ostracize them or threaten them with eternal damnation.
> > Don't tell me homophobia doesn't hurt people. It's just as bad as
> > anti-Semitism or racism.
>
> Not true. Maybe as bad as Jewphobia or racialphobia, but not as bad
> as anti-Semitism or racism. There's a difference between being afraid
> of a sector of the population, and actively engaging in calling down
> the wrath of God, government, and society on said sector of the
> population.
>
> If phobias were on the same level as witchhunts, then yes, maybe I could
> see the connection you're drawing on, but they aren't. After all, I
> mean, what would people who were necrophobic do..? Kill the dead body
> that's scaring the wits out of them..?
No, they would avoid and shun dead bodies. But when the body that you're
avoiding and shunning is a living person, their feelings tend to be hurt.
You don't have to kill someone to harm them.
> James
> ..wondering if foodphobia is possible..
Why not? People have stupid, unfounded fears about all sorts of harmless
things. 9_9;;
Trixie
tcur...@aol.com.net (TCurryFan) wrote:
>"trix...@hotmail.com (Trixie)" said"
>
>>Well... rapists don't have to be attracted to their victims.
>You're right... I meant, "A man who might be attracted to a woman", ie, a
>straight or bisexual man.
>Bascially- he's afraid that a man attracted to other men will rape him,
>therefore he's afraid of *all* him. I'm saying that I'm more likely to be
>raped by a man attracted to women, yet I don't fear all of them.
>Oy.. I'm not explaining myself well...
Sure you are, I understood what you meant. I included that line for his
benefit.
Trixie
TCurryFan
>Well... rapists don't have to be attracted to their victims.
You're right... I meant, "A man who might be attracted to a woman", ie, a
straight or bisexual man.
Bascially- he's afraid that a man attracted to other men will rape him,
therefore he's afraid of *all* him. I'm saying that I'm more likely to be
raped by a man attracted to women, yet I don't fear all of them.
Oy.. I'm not explaining myself well...
Catherine Johnson.
Frank White
>
>Frank White wrote:
<snippo>
>> Have you ever read the book "Gentleman's Agreement"? It's an
>[snip]
>
>No, I haven't. I can be depressed easy enough without having to hear
>yet another account of Jewish wartime suffering.
No no no, you don't understand. This was not virulent anti-Semitism
as practiced in Nazi Germany or during the war. This was out and
out racial hatred in the US of A back in what a lot of people like
to call the 'good old days' of the 20's and 30's. Where if you were
Jewish you could be fired just because you were Jewish. Where hotels
and restruants were 'restricted'. Where people threw around racial
insults and slurs as casually as they breathed.
The Nazis had a lot of followers in the land of the free and the
home of the brave. In no small part because of their anti-Jewish
stance. Many people felt right at home.
>Besides, I think there's a great difference between anti-semitism and
>modern gay-bashing.
Not to the victims.
> Jews couldn't exactly have Jew Rights parades in
>downtown Germany..
And 30 years ago, neither could gays. The cops would have beaten
their heads in. And the spectators would have helped.
That such things CAN happen now is one of the few things that
make me think this society may be maturing and becoming more
tolerant of those not in the mainstream. Probably not, but
may be.
FW
pessimist, with reason
Tolaris
a zoebobs continuation,[-.^;] Catherine wrote..
>"James Helferty <jhel...@chat.carleton.ca>" said:
>>TCurryFan wrote:
>>> "James Helferty <jhel...@chat.carleton.ca>" said:
>>> >TCurryFan wrote:
>>> >
>>> >Okay, so I don't display positive feelings about
>>> >homosexuals in general.
>>>
>>> No. You display NEGATIVE feelings about them.
>>> There's a difference between not displaying positive
>>> feelings and displaying negative feelings about them.
>>
>>I display negative feelings about them..? Not that I can
>>recall.. [frown] You want to give some textual proof to back
>>up that statement, TCF..?
>
>This post?
>"I don't HATE people who are gay, I'm just afraid of them"
>I'd call that pretty negative.
>And the fact that you don't SEE that as negative is pretty sad...
--
IMAO what's sad is that you can be so considerate when it
comes to the homosexuals.. but at the same time you can be
so inconsiderate to someone who _can't_ share your view..
Think about it.. the guy says he has a _phobia_..which is,
like a few already pointed out, an _irrational_ fear.. it's
not like his fear of homosexuals is something he can control
or not.. it's not like his fear is a result of careful
consideration..he's just _irrationally_ afraid of them, in
the same way i'm afraid of height and you seem to be afraid
of waking up cute.. ;P
Now what the heck do you find so negative about it, and what
gives you the right to demand him to not talk about his
fear? because some people might find the fact he's
_irrationally_ afraid of something, offending? if there
actually are such people, i'd say they're really stupid and
inconsiderate..and to be honest, i don't give a damn about
opinion of inconsiderate idiots.. Č.Č;;
>>> And why do you assume a gay person's going to rape you?
>>> I mean, I have a better chance of being raped by a man
>>> than you do, but I don't hate men who are attracted to me.
>>
>>[wince] You're jumping to conclusions again. I don't HATE
>>people who are gay, I'm just afraid of them.
>
>Ok, fine, let me rephrase:
>And why do you assume a gay person's going to rape you?
>I mean, I have a better chance of being raped by a man
>than you do, but I'm not afraid of all men who are attracted to me
--
And why are you afraid of waking up cute? and why am i
afraid of height? and why pretty much everyone on this
planet is _irrationally_ afraid of something or other?
different folks, different phobias..and you're giving him a
hard time because his is different than yours, and you
happen to not like it?
>Now answer the question, please.
>
>>There's a difference. Get it through your head already.
>
>I did. Now answer the question, already.
--
Ever occured to you he just may _not_ know the answer? this
is _irrational_ fear.. not something you can defeat with the
power of logic..
I'm sorry for repeating this so many times, but it seems to
me that despite your claim, you still didn't get the
difference between 'hate' and 'irrational fear'.. :P
><snip the rest along with sexual offer>
Tolaris
having this sinking feeling he;s gonna regret posting this
one once he wakes up..but not caring about it right now; or
about anything else, for that matter.. *curls up*
--
No special reason, just government policy.
TCurryFan
Sorry, but I don't buy that his homophobia is a true "phobia". And if it is,
he can overcome it like ANY phobia can be overcome if he wants to.
Since the rest of you post is based on this, I'm snipping it.
>Tolaris
TCurryFan
>In article <19981117212031...@ng102.aol.com>,
>tcur...@aol.com.net (TCurryFan) wrote:
>>"trix...@hotmail.com (Trixie)" said"
>>
>>>Well... rapists don't have to be attracted to their victims.
>>
>> You're right... I meant, "A man who might be attracted to a
>> woman", ie, a straight or bisexual man.
>> Bascially- he's afraid that a man attracted to other men will
>> rape him, therefore he's afraid of *all* him. I'm saying that
>> I'm more likely to be raped by a man attracted to women,
>> yet I don't fear all of them.
>> Oy.. I'm not explaining myself well...
>
>Sure you are, I understood what you meant. I included that
>line for his benefit.
Oh, ok. Thanks. ^_^
>Trixie