Why are Hotaru and ChibiUsa friends?
Gloria Santos
pink. Why are they friends? Maybe Hotaru really has a cheerful and pink
side and ChibiUsa has a dark side.
What are their conversations about? Imagine and say.
Meech
>
> Hotaru is all gloomy and a bit dark. ChibiUsa is too cheerful and kawaii-ly
> pink. Why are they friends? Maybe Hotaru really has a cheerful and pink
> side and ChibiUsa has a dark side.
Hotaru, gloomy and dark? That's not the impression I got at all. She
seems more introverted and lonely to me, someone who definitely could
use the cheering up that Chibi-Usa can give her.
> What are their conversations about? Imagine and say.
I usually imagine Chibi-Usa chattering along without a care in the
world, and Hotaru smiling to herself, remaining pretty quiet, evoking
the occasional affirmation, or giggling appropriately, secretly
appreciating wonderful friend she had discovered.
Plus, there would be several pouts from Chibi-Usa because Hotaru looks
so damn cute with a beret on.
Meech the Brown Hornet
Sara Jaye
>Hotaru is all gloomy and a bit dark. ChibiUsa is too cheerful and kawaii-ly
>pink. Why are they friends?
ChibiUsa being so cheerful and Hotaru being so dark and fragile IS the reason
they're such good friends. They balance each other out. ChibiUsa can make
Hotaru smile, and Hotaru keeps ChibiUsa more grounded.
(That's also why they make such a kawaii yuri couple, too. ~_^ *ducks flames*)
Sara Jaye, holder of the Magic Pool Cue.
~I don't suffer from insanity.I enjoy every minute of it.~
Shadow
schezophrenics, suffering from more than one personality. Then again,
Chibi-usa was brainwashed, Hotaru had another personality, or rather, three
personalities - Saturn, is always treated as another, i think.
"Phant" <phant@mad_scientist.compound> wrote in message
news:ii5kctkr2uaeduhti...@4ax.com...
> "Gloria Santos" <al59...@mail.mty.itesm.mx> wrote:
>
> >Hotaru is all gloomy and a bit dark.
>
> I don't know, I'd really attribute a lot of that to her
> possession by M9. Hotaru went on picnics with the group,
> M9 sat around in the dark.
>
> >ChibiUsa is too cheerful and kawaii-ly
> >pink.
>
>
> or at least that's what she wants you to think. ^_^
>
> >Why are they friends? Maybe Hotaru really has a cheerful and pink
> >side and ChibiUsa has a dark side.
> >
>
> My money's on the later.
>
> >What are their conversations about? Imagine and say.
> >
>
> They do sort of have a common ground, ChibiUsa becoming
> Black Lady and Hotaru becoming Mistress 9. Maybe they
> have an "I was turned evil" support group or something ^_^
>
>
> __
>
> Phant - Subbie, black listed, proud of it. (tcpo.topcities.com)
> MC 1.12.05 (www.aracnet.com/~cmc/) SM:5+ F:sJu++Mo+:vIrA4:pS++*+
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> MakoCode(1.0.0) SJ:5+ X:*** O:d:h:a-:o[+]:c+[+]
>
> AFSM New User's Guide - http://www.geocities.com/willrobsm/afsm
Shadow
"Sara Jaye" <sara...@aol.communism> wrote in message
news:20010403142227...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
Princess Neko Tsukimi
>pink. Why are they friends? Maybe Hotaru really has a cheerful and pink
>side and ChibiUsa has a dark side.
Hotaru couldn't keep friends and Chibiusa was told by her mother to make
friends while she was still in the past. So, they meet and get along well and
the rest is history.
Neko-chan
http://www.nekotsukimi.f2s.com
-------------------------------------
"Why do they call those things sitting on top of the
TV rabbit ears? Why not cat ears? How many times
have you seen a rabbit sitting on top of a TV?"
-Gatomon
Frank White
says...
>
>Hotaru is all gloomy and a bit dark. ChibiUsa is too cheerful and
kawaii-ly
>pink. Why are they friends? Maybe Hotaru really has a cheerful and pink
>side and ChibiUsa has a dark side.
They are two souls made one?
>What are their conversations about? Imagine and say.
We don't have to. We see them together often in S, and a
bit in Stars. As little girls they talk about the same sort
of thing all little girls talk of (their hopes, their dreams,
if they can raid the refrigerator) and as Senshi they stand
togehter side by side.
FW
PHILIP SAMUEL JENKINS
kawaii-ly
> pink. Why are they friends? Maybe Hotaru really has a cheerful and pink
> side and ChibiUsa has a dark side.
Well ChibaUsa is about 8 or 9 and Hortaru is about 12 in a group that
comprises 15 to 2000+ year olds its odviouse they would become friends as
there the youngest members of the group and are treated as such.
> What are their conversations about? Imagine and say.
>
ChibaUsa: So what are we going to do today Saturn
Hortaru: Same thing we do ever night really annoying small girl. Try to
destory the world by getting ourselves kidnapped, brainwashed and then
finally resucued by your really annoying mother as our army of giant ants
takes over the world while the scouts are looking.
Chiba: But we did that last season?
Hortaru: Yeah but it gives us ratings and its not like Pokemon dosen't use
the same 3 storylines in rotation.
Chibausa: Point, but I think we should get Ice Cream first.
Hortaru: Yay lets get icecream but don't let Usagi know otherwise we won't
get anything to eat...
and so on and so on ad infintum ad norsium.
p.s. I'm new here.
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Tuxedo George
Why are they friends? A couple of answers:
(1) Associatrophism: The Hat-trick of Cancer and the Hat-trick of
Capricorn
just have to get along well -- sort of like the "Tropic of Cancer" and
the
"Tropic of Capricorn" on the planet Earth. (Chibi-usa met Hotaru when CU
lost her hat, then met her again as a little baby when CU lost hat
again.)
(2)
(a) Hotaru is the world's hardest person to befriend: she's sickly
and
unable to participate in group activities; she's retiring and lives
alone
with her extremely anti-social father; she's a Cyborg in the manga; she
(inadvertently) maims classmates; and there's a visiting slime
(Kaolinite)
who frequents Hotaru's house and who sends prospective friends away if
any
should happen to call. ("No, you can't visit Hotaru. She's resting.")
(Did I leave out the part where Hotaru is possessed by a Supervillain
who is bent on destroying the universe?)
(b) Chibi-usa is the world's best person at befriending just about
anybody. Not only is she congenial and outgoing, she is under
instructions
from a super-powered, royal mother to make friends.
She could probably befriend a rock. (It might be safer, too. . . .)
Their conversations? The usual. Watch the episodes. ("I won this time,
but
we were playing a game you're bad at. You always win at [something].
Let's
play [something] this time. Watch me! I'll beat you this time for
sure!")
{"Do you want to go to the Planetarium with me? Come on, it'll be fun!")
You know: the usual.
Joe Gerber
<al59...@mail.mty.itesm.mx> wrote:
>Hotaru is all gloomy and a bit dark. ChibiUsa is too cheerful and kawaii-ly
>pink. Why are they friends? Maybe Hotaru really has a cheerful and pink
>side and ChibiUsa has a dark side.
Well, there are a whole bunch of possible reasons.
For one thing, opposites attract--Chibiusa and Hotaru would kind of
balance each other out.
Also, Hotaru has very few (I'd say zero) freinds, due to a combination
of her lack of phyiscal strength and stamina (she can't keep up with
anybody else), her sheltered home life, and a rather mean-spirited
(literaly) nanny in Kaori. Mostly, though it's because other people
fear her ability to heal (or harm) others. (People tend to fear that
which they do not understand, possess, or control. The fact that
Hotaru herself doesn't understand it is irrevelant.) These all also
add up to extreme introversion on Hotaru's part (not as bad as say,
Shinji Ikari, but noticable), which further contributes to this lack
of friends.
Chibiusa, OTOH, inherited her mother's abilty to completly ignore
superficial differences and see true personalties. Also, as just
about everybody else pointed out, NQS told Chibiusa to make friends
while back in the 20th century. Add to this the fact that most of the
people that Chibiusa has met thus far have also had supernatural (or,
at least, superhuman) abilites (the Senshi), and a person who can heal
the injured is not entirely unexpected.
>What are their conversations about? Imagine and say.
I don't know--what do 11 year-old girls talk about? Which boy band
has cuter members? What each other drew in art class? What movie to
see? To go with Britney and drink Pepsi, or Christina and drink Coke?
(Yes, I know this is an anarchonism. You get the point.)
Joe
Daniel Seagraves
This one's easy - Chibiusa is the first person Hotaru has found that
actually CARES about her and isn't afraid of her. I'd say that would be a
big reason.
P.O.B.D.N.
> Hotaru is all gloomy and a bit dark. ChibiUsa is too cheerful and kawaii-ly
> pink. Why are they friends? Maybe Hotaru really has a cheerful and pink
> side and ChibiUsa has a dark side.
One answer! Do not assess people by their appearance!
Martin
****************
Space, the final frontier...
P.O.B.D.N.
> ChibiUsa being so cheerful and Hotaru being so dark and fragile IS the reason
> they're such good friends. They balance each other out. ChibiUsa can make
> Hotaru smile, and Hotaru keeps ChibiUsa more grounded.
For many peope makeing somebody simle and happy is very pleasant feeling. Maybe in this
case is the same feeling?!
ChibiUsa doesn't want to look like a child next to her frend. (Everry one of us doesn't
want to - I think)
Martin
*****************************
Space, the final fontier...
TuxedoKamen
<9acljg$l4h$1...@news.mty.itesm.mx>:
Everything I wanted to say has already been put forth quite well. I'm
just going to take my weapons and go crouch in corner waiting for the
inevitable child-yuri freak.
--
______________
Tuxedo Kamen afdtuxe...@sailormercury.com
Defender of Chibiusa's Honor
"Real justice, Sailor Moon."
Ami Code(1.0.0): MA:6 X:***[****]d:--hk:--o:a:h:-u:+
Yeah, it's okaying. -- Mirai Matt
I am not the Piccolo you know. I am "The Namek."
Udi
once upon a time..?
The Lone Gunman
news:9acljg$l4h$1...@news.mty.itesm.mx...
--Reg--
^_^ Hush.
Taryn K.
"Udi" <reu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3ACD4071...@yahoo.com...
Well it's a commonly known (and true) fact that opposites attract, and it's
commonly exploited in anime. How about Usagi and Mamoru? Mamoru was always a
bit gloomy and quiet. From other anime, off the top of my head, there's
couples like Fuu x Ferio. My parents are TOTAL opposites from each other and
I have NEVER heard them fight. Chibi-usa, in my opinion, would do most of
the talking. Hotaru does seem to be a good listener.
--Taryn
Sara Jaye
>> What are their conversations about? Imagine and say.
>>
>.....Who gets to be on top?
>
<Hotaru> Who told you?!
<ChibiUsa> I knew someone was listening in the other night...
Tenchi ga Illumina-ken o yoitemasu
> Hotaru is all gloomy and a bit dark. ChibiUsa is too cheerful and kawaii-ly
> pink. Why are they friends? Maybe Hotaru really has a cheerful and pink
> side and ChibiUsa has a dark side.
Yes, it's somewhere along that line. Hotaru only appears dark and gloomy
because she is possesed. With Chibi-Usa, The cheerful and kawaii stuff is
just a facade - in truth she is as evil as the Death Phantom or Pharao 90.
She brainwashed poor Hotaru into thinking she would be her friend, just like
she brainwashed the others with her hypnosis umbrella. She did so because
she wanted to control the Messiah of Silence herself and then call Pharao 90
- but her evil plan didn't work out, as her evil essence was exactly what
the Deathbusters needed to awake Mistress9.
--
Tenchi wielding the Illumina sword - Minako's true #1
-> email: Minak...@is-really-hot-gmx.li - only gmx.li
Venus and Moon shrine: http://home.nexgo.de/minako.aino/
my Seiken Densetsu 3 page: http://home.nexgo.de/minako.aino/sd3/
Minako Quake (2.14): http://planetquake.com/minako/
-> http://dl.fileplanet.com/dl/dl.asp?minako/Minako-Quake-v2-install.exe
Official Lakacua home: http://home.nexgo.de/minako.aino/lakacua/
(Let's all kick annoying Chibi-Usa's ass) -> not up yet
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Hitsuji-chan
^_^ plain chibi would be Kousagi
Chibichibi is obvious
and Chibiusa... well that's also obvious..
Hitsuji-chan
so gloomy and introverted. Later, free of all the implants Hotaru's quite a bit
genki-teki. ^_^ Plus she and Chibiusa didn't meet the second time with a hat in
the manga.
Hitsuji-chan
successful couples, personality-wise they are different (with 1 degress
overlap) and then their interests are basically the same.
Mamoru and Usagi:
Usagi can be serious, especially in the manga, her care for her friends and
protecting the Earth, are the same exact interests that Mamoru has. She can be
smart, but mostly she's stupid out of laziness rather than really being stupid.
Mamoru, as I explained has the same interests with Usagi. For his
personality... he is carig like Usagi is. Deep inside he cares what happenes to
both her and her Senshi, as well as the Earth. ^_^
So see!
Shared interests= common bond.
Different personalities= more things to learn about Each other.
I think Chibiusa is a good listener too. She talks as much as she listens.
Though being genki means that she has to talk more in the anime. In the manga
Takeuchi-sensei manages to do it without her talking every second.
When She and Hotaru are having a converstion it's usually take and give. ^_^
Otherwise there wouldn't be that strong of a friendship.
Hitsuji-chan
OK.. Suddenly I declare myself, (who is at the moment heterosexual) homosexual
because I have a lot of friends of the female sex. (This is not meant to insult
sexuality at all). Hey! I happen to have a close friend of the same sex as I do,
does that mean I'm suddenly gay? Sexuality is not arrbratary, and not always an
easy thing. (--;; Whether you're homosexual or hereosexual, going about sexuality
is hard.. wouldn't everyone agree?)
Or because I have a friend that is male, does that mean I'm in love with him? (or
was)
--;; I always am discontent with people matching up all the senshi in yuri
matches like suddenly they can renounce all feelings they've had for the opposite
sex, when there are strong indications as such.
I'm all for Michiru and Haruka, I get absolutely mad when someone announces in a
fan fiction that they have boyfriends! --;; How could they do that to such a
perfect couple?
What I object to is the sudden desire of everyone to declare close friends
(Nakayoshi) a couple. Why? Because it's conveint and neat.
Is friendship not sacred anymore? --;; You have to have friends not just a lover
/ sig. other.
So, to proove my case with Chibiusa, let's inspect the evidence, MANGA *AND*
ANIME!
Hotaru's sexuality never really has a CHANCE to come up. This is mainly because
she's a child for most of the series. Once she's up, she's knocked down to
childhood again. So I will understand if someone said she was gay. (Though if
someone says she is gay because Michiru and Haruka are, and they are living in
the same house with Setsuna, I will beat them senseless.)
OK. Let's inspect Chibiusa's crushes.
ANIME:
The guy that she saw pull down his pants. Uhh... Well she was in love with him
until he humilated her.. sicko!
She was in love with the guy who dressed up in a Sailor fuku.. the bishounen..
until she was humiliated again with him dressing up like a senshi.. something
that will scar her for life, I suspect. I mean think about it.. every time she
transforms she gets that image in her head.. --;;
She was in love with Masanori (and in the original she even confronted Michiru
about it.) The guy who did the chalice (though in the manga, Usagi and Mamoru did
it for her, complte with jewels). He was also a guy. But he never really returned
her feelings.
See a pattern yet? All guys.. Hmm... let's continue with the big 2.
Peruru- She gave her cookies to Peruru and not Mamoru. She blushed at him and the
Senshi were spying on her, so that means something, right? She really liked him.
Apparently a lot. He was male.
Elios / Helios- ^_^ This was so sweet! the anime made it a bit sick.. --;; They
couldn't wait long enough for her to fall in love with someone.. now she seems to
love horses a bit *TOO* much.. But he kissed her and she let him. She posed for
that second, and let him kiss her. Before that she called it friendship.
Afterwards she asked, "what was that kiss?"
My main probelm with Hotaru -Chibiusa couplings is that they dismiss this
relationship entirely with one sentence. Something like: Hota-chan I really hated
to be kissed Hota-chan (even though I posed and waited for him to kiss me and ran
after him, I still hate him Hota-chan). and even though in the manga I kissed him
back, i really didn't want to, and even though want him to come back, I
don't want him to kiss me again... --;;
MANGA
Chibiusa is mainly looking at Helios / Elios. In fact, if you inspect the manga,
you find that most of the couplings are usually with one other person. ^_^ With
Rei, she was lucky.. She got 3. Luna and Artemis... (Luna did look elsewhere, but
then decided to marry within her own species ^.~). Michiru with Haruka, Usagi
with Mamoru (though there are light indications that Seiya has a thing for her,
but she never returns Seiya's feelings.), Princess Mercury (Ami) with Zoicite
(He's male! look at the spelling), etc. ^_^ So I am justicfied in saying that one
matching is not all that bad, in the regular manga terms. (as Supposed to
Parallel Sailormoon which is outside of the timeline)
Chibiusa fell in love with Elios when he surprise kissed her. She didn't know he
was human. In fact when she was older and sitting on the swing, she was wondering
if he was her Prince. She thought she was commiting adultery (though Diana
pointed out it was the wrong word). She'd discovered something a bit beyond a
crush.
Later, when she saw Elios was hurt she kissed him. He recognized her as his
maiden.
Before that, he had a vision of her with white hair... hmm... Let's see... Usagi
as Neo-Queen Selenity has white hair. Queen Selenity has white hair. (remember,
manga!) Could it be that he's seeing her as she would be a Queen? Therefore he
could be the next king.
Also he promised to come back and see her again in the manga. She ran after him
as he flew away on Pegasus (Finally out of that horse's body! I'm surprised he
wasn't sick of the animal). She had faith he would return.
(There are also Mythological reasons for the pairing too... It's backed up.. As
with Haruka and Michiru there are also astronomy and Astrology reasons, for that
pairing also)
So... Now, let's inspect the relationship with Hotaru, is it more than a
friendship? OK.
In the Infinity Series of the manga, there is a stong desire to be together, for
friendship sake. Chibiusa is constantly tryig not to have Hotaru killed. There
are no picnics in this manga series.
In the SMS, the Infinity equivilent, they never indicate anything beyond
friendship. Usagi only came along with Chibiusa because she thought Hotaru was a
boy that Chibiusa liked and Chibiusa refused to tell Usagi Hotaru's name, which
would have tipped Usagi off that Hotaru was a girl. Usagi got mad when she found
out that Hotaru was a girl. Usagi thought it was a "special friend" and then
Chibiusa got mad and explained it was just a friend. That discounts it in SMS.
OK, next event, the picnic. Doesn't it look like they are having a lot of fun? I
don't see any scenes where Chibiusa and Hotaru are romatically involved, plus
there is no flirting like Haruka-san and Michiru-san do.
Manga
Hmm.. The thing that most people point to is the color pic where Chibiusa and
Hotaru are nude. How come they are cutting out the rest of the pic? It's not just
them in the full page spread, it's everyone else too. It's simply hard to fit all
those senshi in with that kind of page size. Notice also that there is a pic of
Rei and Minako together.... that was used for the Exam battle though.
OK.. Chibiusa and Hotaru hold hands. (Stars) I don't know about you, but when I
was that age, I held hands with a lot of people. Does it always imply something
sexual when someone holds hands? In fact I've never seen Haruka-san and
Michiru-san hold hands in the manga. In the anime there was that beautiful scene
with the hands in the air... *smiles* where they touched fingers, but that was
implied with music, etc.
--;; They are also a bit too young to really fall in love. That's why Helios
left... Child love... --;; You know that little children don't go out on real
dates... (though they;'ve been getting younger and younger these days.. ^.~)
This is not a flame.. it's a disagreeing argument.. there is quite a difference.
^_^ A flame would use harsh words and use insults. ^_^ I give reasons and support
for why I disagree.
Justine
sexuality. If you believe that sexuality is concrete then the fact that
ChibiUsa is only shown to be romantically involved with make characters is
valid. Then again, many people (me included) believe that sexuality is fluid
and ever-changing. In which case past experiences don't really mean a whole
lot in the whole scheme of things. I agree that there is not very much
evidence to suggest that Hotaru and ChibiUsa are romantically involved but I
think pairing them as Yuri is just a type of fanfiction...and fanfiction
doesn't really have a whole lot of rules. I tend to think of C and H's
relationship as closer to the Victorian Romantic Friendship in which they
kiss, hold hands and do things that we would NOW consider sexual but were
really more like expressions of intense friendships (yes, people ARE capable
of showing platonic love physically.) Love isn't always about sex but I
don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with a fanartist or writer
suggesting that maybe in 15 years C and H would be involved sexually...Even
if they were together, that doesn't mean that C hated any of her
heterosexual experiences...there's such a thing as bisexuality.
You said: "Or because I have a friend that is male, does that mean I'm in
love with him? "
How about: If I kiss a man, does that mean that I'm not actually in love
with the woman I believe I love?
I basically agree with you, I just feel differently about the possibilities.
Sexuality is NOT predictable heh.
-Justine
--
=====
Woven, Unofficially the first Kinnie Starr Fan Site
URL: http://members.home.net/justinee
=====
"Hitsuji-chan" <kim_y...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3ACF59DB...@yahoo.com...
Sara Jaye
>You're argument is not wrong, but it is dependant on your definition of
>sexuality. If you believe that sexuality is concrete then the fact that
>ChibiUsa is only shown to be romantically involved with make characters is
>valid. Then again, many people (me included) believe that sexuality is fluid
>and ever-changing. In which case past experiences don't really mean a whole
>lot in the whole scheme of things. I agree that there is not very much
>evidence to suggest that Hotaru and ChibiUsa are romantically involved but I
>think pairing them as Yuri is just a type of fanfiction...and fanfiction
>doesn't really have a whole lot of rules. I tend to think of C and H's
>relationship as closer to the Victorian Romantic Friendship in which they
>kiss, hold hands and do things that we would NOW consider sexual but were
>really more like expressions of intense friendships (yes, people ARE capable
>of showing platonic love physically.) Love isn't always about sex but I
>don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with a fanartist or writer
>suggesting that maybe in 15 years C and H would be involved sexually...Even
>if they were together, that doesn't mean that C hated any of her
>heterosexual experiences...there's such a thing as bisexuality.
>You said: "Or because I have a friend that is male, does that mean I'm in
>love with him? "
>
>How about: If I kiss a man, does that mean that I'm not actually in love
>with the woman I believe I love?
>
>I basically agree with you, I just feel differently about the possibilities.
>Sexuality is NOT predictable heh.
*applauds*
Very nicely put. ^_^
Even if it doesn't show in the anime, or it's not very obvious in the manga,
who's to say that they're only friends? And even in the manga translations I
read, it seemed quite obvious there was something between them. ^^;
Jesse Douglas
Hitsuji-chan <kim_y...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Before that, he had a vision of her with white hair... hmm... Let's see...
>Usagi
>as Neo-Queen Selenity has white hair. Queen Selenity has white hair.
>(remember,
>manga!) Could it be that he's seeing her as she would be a Queen? Therefore he
>could be the next king.
The truth comes out! Helios is only using Chibiusa in a scheme to seize
the throne! -_^
>Hmm.. The thing that most people point to is the color pic where Chibiusa and
>Hotaru are nude. How come they are cutting out the rest of the pic? It's not
>just
>them in the full page spread, it's everyone else too. It's simply hard to fit
>all
>those senshi in with that kind of page size. Notice also that there is a pic
>of
>Rei and Minako together.... that was used for the Exam battle though.
It's not just the fact that they're naked together.... It's where
Hotaru's hand happens to be.... (Not that I'm supporting either side of
this argument.)
--
Jesse Douglas
tdou...@erols.com
Minako Code (1.0.0) SV: 4 X: ** O: d- o a- h+
"Gohan-chan, gohan yo!"
--Chichi, *Dragonball Z*, ep. 1
Hitsuji-chan
characters, rather than saying for fan fiction purposes this can be true. (In
another words inject a bit of reality into it)
If you want some references from a fan fiction of a famous stature I have them.
She said it wasn't a choice. She didn't say one day she was gay. She said that
she felt that she was always that way. So I think it's more of a state of
being. It's not how you are raised, it's part of you.
Greenbeans:
http://www.tyrlen.org/gbeans/homepage/er-homo.html
http://www.tyrlen.org/gbeans/homepage/er-oreo.html
http://www.tyrlen.org/gbeans/homepage/er-psalm.html
From what I know /read/ watched. (Since I tend to be curious about
everything...) It does not seem to be an easy choice to consider yourself
homosexual, or bisexual. There is ridicule to deal with, and also though it
might seem nice to live in a world where this isn't true, I still imagine it's
one of the hardest things you could ever admit to in any culture. (Even where
it's accepted and even exhalted.)
Homosexuality shows up in families that are so strictly Christian that they
won't allow for that, and then they try to make themselves heterosexual as if
it were a disease, but then they find that they can't do it. They would love to
be heterosexual, but it's part of them they know and they can't go back.
In bean's article she stated that she was a devoted Christian. She had to find
her own answers. To her, I bet it would seem easier to be heterosexual when she
wote the article, rather than be homosexual, though I doubt she would ever "go
back" (for a lack of a better term) to being heterosexual.
^_^ Also I've listened to locker room chats. The majority thought it was not a
choice, as so much as the people were that way. For those who were religious
they believed that gotd MADE them that way, rather than made them that way to
torchure them, or that the people who were homosexual did not choose it. They
simply WERE.
To back this up a bit more.. I was discussing this with a friend of mine. He
believes the same and he is bisexual. Here is the question:
(Sailor Ud is me Drake is him)
SailorUd: (Seriously you're Bi, or are you joking?)
Drake Sturmgard: i am bi
Drake Sturmgard: seriously.
SailorUd: ^_^
Drake Sturmgard: primarily hetero, though.
SailorUd: So you could help me argue my case?
Drake Sturmgard: how so?
SailorUd: That it's a state of being rather than a choice (like you say one day
you're just cgoing to be straight, would you be happy, or something like that)
SailorUd: (No offense intended)
Drake Sturmgard: none taken, ud.
Drake Sturmgard: sure.
Drake Sturmgard: what do you need me to do?
SailorUd: I have other references too.
SailorUd: So If you were to declare yourself just homosexual, would you be
happy?
Drake Sturmgard: no.
Drake Sturmgard: I like girls, too.
SailorUd: Why?
Drake Sturmgard: Uh... that's getting personal, Hitsuji.
Drake Sturmgard: You might find the answers slightly ecchi for your tastes.
SailorUd: No, I'm all for Haruka and Michiru.. Homosexual relationships, etc.
(as long as it deals with identity it's fine)
SailorUd: I spent over 3 hours reading Greenbeans page.
Drake Sturmgard: who?
SailorUd: ^_^ She's a faous fan fiction writer
SailorUd: She's also homosexual
SailorUd: If you feel uncomfortable, that's fine.
SailorUd: I can argue it without the reference.
Drake Sturmgard: no. not uncomfortable.
SailorUd: ^_^
SailorUd: OK.
SailorUd: So you don't mind answering the question?
Drake Sturmgard: what was it again?
SailorUd: So If you were to declare yourself just homosexual, would you be
happy? (and explain either way)
Drake Sturmgard: no.
SailorUd: So you can explain it?
Drake Sturmgard: I like both men and women. I'll probably end up with a woman,
but I wouldn't mind one way or the other.
SailorUd: Why do you think it's a state of being?
Drake Sturmgard: I can't really explain WHY, per se... some parts of it are
sexual in nature, others are relationship-based.
SailorUd: ^^;; Could you explain the relationship-based part (if you feel
uncomfortable, tell me to stop any time you want)
Drake Sturmgard: Well, I like the fact in a stereotypical boy-girl
relationship, the boy is the protector and figure of strength.
Drake Sturmgard: In a boy-boy relationship, the part of "strong person" and the
part of "innocent (for lack of a better term.)" are shared.
SailorUd: ^_^ Thanks.
SailorUd: So could you ever really deny either preference. (for a lack of a
better term?
SailorUd: )
Drake Sturmgard: no, I couldn't.
Drake Sturmgard: I like both.
As for other discussions...
I've also participated in, and heard the "Wouldn't it be nice if [I or someone
else just could be gay]" conversation after someone had been cruel to them and
then it goes into the I hate guys conversation.
The usual conversation is:
Wouldn't it be nice if I were gay?
It would seem easier, wouldn't it?
I mean we could relate a lot quicker.
Yeah, but think about it, it would be hard, wouldn't it?
Yeah, but it still would be nice.
[sometimes someone inserts this]: Why don't you start now?
It sucks, I can't.
Also I remember getting really mad when I was a kid over someone saying that
some scientists said that there was a part of the brain that was physically
shown to coorespond to sexuality. I got mad over it (seeing that I do know a
homosexual copule who lives in our neighborhood), but when I asked my mom she
confirmed it.. I never got the follow up on that though. I could get some
articles I guess. (My mom is a scientist about nerves so she knows about the
brain)
Presenting this info, I don't think it's liquid. Do you think you could
suddenly change your sexuality and be happy? I mean try for a month to switch
your sexuality, and see if it's easy to do that, or you feel that it's denying
something of yourself?
Umm.. Some disclaimers.. so that no one will complain:
This is meant to be a serious discussion. If you can't handle this discussion,
maybe you shouldn't answer to this post. This is not meant to be perverted (and
I selectively advoided it), and in no way do I personally think this is
insulting. Oh, and I'm very, very liberal. (in some cases more than my parents)
Miki no Miko
*snippy*
> Presenting this info, I don't think it's liquid. Do you think you could
> suddenly change your sexuality and be happy? I mean try for a month to
switch
> your sexuality, and see if it's easy to do that, or you feel that it's
denying
> something of yourself?
Let me put it this way. If it were possible for me to take a pill and become
straight, I wouldn't do it.
--
Jen
Arnold Kim
> Presenting this info, I don't think it's liquid. Do you think you could
> suddenly change your sexuality and be happy? I mean try for a month to
switch
> your sexuality, and see if it's easy to do that, or you feel that it's
denying
> something of yourself?
Personally, I follow the belief that x percent of all people are 100%
straight, y percent of all people are 100% gay, and everyone else is
somewhere in between. So I think it's malleable for _some_ people to the
extent that they haven't discovered themselves sexually-not that they're
really changing it, but simply discovering something that they never noticed
before. There are people who have discovered their homosexual tendencies
late in life- sometimes after they've been married and have children.
One's sexual tendencies themselves may be set in stone, but one's awareness
of it may not be.
Arnold Kim
marv...@hotmal.com
: Yes, it's somewhere along that line. Hotaru only appears dark and gloomy
: because she is possesed. With Chibi-Usa, The cheerful and kawaii stuff is
: just a facade - in truth she is as evil as the Death Phantom or Pharao 90.
: She brainwashed poor Hotaru into thinking she would be her friend, just like
: she brainwashed the others with her hypnosis umbrella. She did so because
: she wanted to control the Messiah of Silence herself and then call Pharao 90
: - but her evil plan didn't work out, as her evil essence was exactly what
: the Deathbusters needed to awake Mistress9.
please stay tuned for the next episode of Sailormoon CU!!
Chibiusa's Evil Plan Revealed! The real daughter of Chaos!
Captain of USS Ocean
Ask yourself: "Have a any friends?" "Why they are my friends?"
People! Think! Friend is a friend. You don't ask him why, because it's your friend,
somebody
who understands you, and you my count on him, and you don't ask why. Friendship is
indefinable. You couldn't write some definition of this word and put into a dictionary and
then one will say: "form here friendship starts and here it ends".
You can't ask ChibiUsa or Hotaru why they are friends, because you may get an answer,
which for you wouldn't be understandable or would be a silly explanation.
With all respect to all of you...
When I see all this letter about friendship of ChibiUsa and Hotaru I could compare it to
trying to prove that circle is a square.
But, good luck. Maybe in the future you will find the answer why... and then let me know,
what the answer is.
Martin
************************************
Space, the final frontier...
www.ocean.prv.pl
http://usseinstein.w.interia.pl
************************************
Taryn K.
don't ever judge a person by their sexual preference and do not consider
people of different sexual preferences than myself to be any less of a
person. I have some very good friends who are both homosexual and bisexual.
I've discussed the subject with my Father before and share a lot of the same
opinions with him. Note that he is a priest and holds nothing against
homosexuals themselves.
This is basically from a Christian point of view. First off, nowhere in the
Bible does it say that being homosexual or bisexual is a sin. It is stated
that the act of sexual acts with people of the same gender is a sin.
Homo/bisexuality is proven to be caused by a bit of a glitch in that section
of the brain and I do believe it to be a mistake in God's creation and not
something that he intended. I don't believe that you "choose" your
sexuality, however. And I don't believe that you can just decide to change
it, as it is an actual mental malfunction. However, I'm not going to bring
myself to believe that it is a natural and pointedly meant part of humanity,
because I can't believe that.
On a similar topic. A lot of people see the Church oppressing
homo/bisexuals, but there is also a lot (not intending this for any readers
of this newsgroup if it does not apply to them) of oppression the opposite
way. The Church is being harassed to accept and embrace homo/bisexuality,
which they simply cannot, in any good faith, comply to. So do consider the
demands before you go bashing the church. But if you do see those
Fundamentalists demeaning homo- and bisexuals, please keep in mind that they
are an insult to Christianity.
Just my 2 cents.
--Taryn
Hitsuji-chan
Ahh! I love a good debate. ^^;;
Will argue it better than I ever could:
http://www.lizzard.net/SuperS/debate/034.html
this is a follow up to be fair:
http://www.lizzard.net/SuperS/debate/045.html
http://www.tyrlen.org/gbeans/homepage/er-homo.html
also helps make my point in this religious department again.
http://www.tyrlen.org/gbeans/homepage/er-oreo.html
Is another reference, same person... But I don't know if this would help or
not.
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Stonewall/7998/
and this deals directly with what you said about homosexuality:
http://www.tyrlen.org/gbeans/homepage/er-psalm.html
^_^ Also to quote: "When ask, many homosexuals say that they did not chose to
be this way, they just are."
Jusst something..
http://www.lizzard.net/SuperS/debate/027.html
^_^ There is also a heavy discussion in rec.arts.anime.misc
So while I don't think sexuality is so much solid you ARE one way or the other,
I do think that it takes discovery, and it's already IN you. It's not something
where you wake up one day and say to yourself, "Hey! I think I'll change my
sexuality today" like it was clothes. Afterall Humans spend hours trying to
relate themselves to the outside world and to themselves. Sexuality definately
is one of those issues that probably everyone has asked themselves once they
are in puberty and afterwards.
Just because someone finds that they are gay after having children does not
mean that they weren't originally that way [for a lack of better wording].
(This I know happened recently with 2 people, 1 I know of). My mom said
something like this of her, "I think she always felt it, and that's why the
marriage was so hard." It's not that she made that concious choice, but that's
when in her life she discovered it.
Also, I think it's a bit mean in a way to say something is a "glitch" when
refering to people. (This would also go into another favorite debate of mine of
Is God perfect?) Afterall, a lot of people often forget that sexuality is not
JUST to human beings and homosexuality and bisexuality can also be found in
other species of animals. Such as birds, monkeys, etc.
The main thing that I wonder about is this:
It seems that our society is more into "being interested" and laughing about
sexuality, rather than being accepting, while this is far better than it was a
while ago, is it worse to do so? and will religion always haave a say in the
Western World? (I have a thing for Anthropology) So is homosexuality, and cross
gender (as supposed to sex) ever going to be ACCEPTED as supposed to being
interested in it (e.g. Talk Show circuits, TV, etc). This is one thing I don't
really know that much about in Japanese culture, since sexuality as a whole
seems to be quieted on one front and extreme on all others. What I see of it,
is only in literature such as manga and anime, which is romaticized and
stereotyped and then marketed to girls who are fantasying that relationships of
that sort could be easier.
Oh, also to return to the larger issue:
Umm.. Hotaru and Chibiusa..
Well in Japan the same sex friendships tend to be stronger than in the US and
Canada (I can't speak for the rest of the Americas).
Also, the acceptance of homosexuality seems to be lower in the US than in
Canada, and in general, Europe seems to be more accepting than either. In
Native American Culture it was accepted, and even revered. In the pagan
religions I still have yet to see anything about it being shunned. Bisexuality
and cross-gender also are the same. Though I still wonder about the
"facination" aspect as supposed to clear and right "acceptance".
I did not accuse Christianity, afterall, it was Judiasm that really started the
ball rolling in that direction (and I do practice Judiasm, so this is an
objective look at things... I might be a weird Jew, but I know the tradition
and am in some way a part of it, though I still am atheist).
Levitcus... who said that men-men relationships were not bad.. and women were
underrated. The question now stands, Is he out of date? Or was he already out
of date at the time. (check the first link)
Mostly, I wonder how much of the original homophobia was fear and
misunderstanding, as much as the misuse of the swastika, hatred of Jews, and
other religions is.
I told ya I'm into Anthropology.. mostly cultural anthropology (stories,
religion, linguistics, art, and what humans produce as a result of interaction
with each other) So I'll take any kind of answer, and I won't take offense to
it. (I love debates and responding to falmes.. It's a sickness sometimes..
^^;;) ^_^ Being very liberal this should be fun whereever this goes.
Miki no Miko
Taryn K. <ama...@home.com> wrote in message
news:SF4A6.21272$C51.6...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...
*snip*
I'm too tired right now to argue the "proven to be a glitch in the brain"
thing and the "homosexual acts are a sin" thing. I'll let someone else do
that and inject my two cents down here.
> On a similar topic. A lot of people see the Church oppressing
> homo/bisexuals, but there is also a lot (not intending this for any
readers
> of this newsgroup if it does not apply to them) of oppression the opposite
> way.
I've never heard of gays killing Christians for the sole reason that they
were Christians.
> But if you do see those
> Fundamentalists demeaning homo- and bisexuals, please keep in mind that
they
> are an insult to Christianity.
I consider them more an insult to humanity in general.
--
Jen
Alex Taylor
> Hotaru is all gloomy and a bit dark. ChibiUsa is too cheerful and kawaii-ly
> pink. Why are they friends? Maybe Hotaru really has a cheerful and pink
> side and ChibiUsa has a dark side.
Arg. Behaviour and personality are NOT equivalent.
Hotaru is quiet and lonely because she's been socially outcast by others.
That says nothing about what her personality is like.
When we see Hotaru outside the restrictions forced on her, we see that she
is sweet, friendly, helpful and kind. She also seems to be naturally
optimistic. (Yes, I mean it. She'd never have survived this long if
she wasn't.)
All of those are attributes that Chibi-Usa values... and returns.
--
Alex Taylor BA - CIS - University of Guelph
al...@eddie.cis.uoguelph.ca http://eddie.cis.uoguelph.ca/~alex
The Lone Gunman
news:nZ6A6.15410$RF1.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> Taryn K. <ama...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:SF4A6.21272$C51.6...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...
> *snip*
> I'm too tired right now to argue the "proven to be a glitch in the brain"
> thing and the "homosexual acts are a sin" thing. I'll let someone else do
> that and inject my two cents down here.
I like the religious stuff they try to throw against gay/bi people. x.x;
"Repent or you'll burn in hell!"
"I don't believe in your hell, I don't believe in your god!"
"You don't believe in god?! You'll go to hell!"
"Did you even hear what I just SAID?"
>
> > On a similar topic. A lot of people see the Church oppressing
> > homo/bisexuals, but there is also a lot (not intending this for any
> readers
> > of this newsgroup if it does not apply to them) of oppression the
opposite
> > way.
>
> I've never heard of gays killing Christians for the sole reason that they
> were Christians.
>
How about because they were IGNORANT Christians? I know some Christians
who're nice and accept the whole thing. Hell, I know a few gay/bi
Christians... they're rare as hell or something x.x; But it's those frumpy
ones that get on MY nerves. The ones who've got the country by the
grapefruits, more or less. x.x; Stupid religion.
"My god's dick is bigger than your god's dick, let's have a war!"
> > But if you do see those
> > Fundamentalists demeaning homo- and bisexuals, please keep in mind that
> they
> > are an insult to Christianity.
>
> I consider them more an insult to humanity in general.
"Homophobes are just pissed because they can't get laid"
>
>
>
> --
> Jen
>
>
--
Reg
Captain of USS Ocean
> > > On a similar topic. A lot of people see the Church oppressing
> > > homo/bisexuals, but there is also a lot (not intending this for any
> > readers
> > > of this newsgroup if it does not apply to them) of oppression the
> opposite
> > > way.
> >
> > I've never heard of gays killing Christians for the sole reason that they
> > were Christians.
> >
>
> How about because they were IGNORANT Christians? I know some Christians
> who're nice and accept the whole thing. Hell, I know a few gay/bi
> Christians... they're rare as hell or something x.x; But it's those frumpy
> ones that get on MY nerves. The ones who've got the country by the
> grapefruits, more or less. x.x; Stupid religion.
According to Christians religion God created a man. But since I know more and more (science), I have
problems with believing in God. And if man is god's creature than gay and bi are god's careature
too. Man is not able to chose what (sexuality) he will be in the day of his birthday and in the next
years of life. Nature has chosen for him. And nature = God (according Christians).
> "My god's dick is bigger than your god's dick, let's have a war!"
This sentence one could have said in the Middle Ages. But may of people is thinking like that now a
days. I'm fighting for science and justice.
Fish Eye no Miko (with her new heart and lungs)
>> "My god's dick is bigger than your god's dick, let's have a war!"
>
>This sentence one could have said in the Middle Ages.
It could still be said today. People still kill each other for "religious"
reasons.
Catherine Johnson.
--
Remove "stilla" to reply
"Was it all a dream? Or a vision?
Or maybe Dilandau hit me just a little too hard?"
-From the fanfic "Wish You Were Here?" by Rachel Young
cpt. Martin
> It could still be said today. People still kill each other for "religious"
> reasons.
Yes! Middle East! But no one is perfect! I live in the country where religion stands on high
position in one's hierarchy of value. That's good, but only then when people understand it in right
way.
cpt. Martin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Space, the final frontier...
www.ocean.prv.pl
http://usseinstein.w.interia.pl
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fish Eye no Miko (with her new heart and lungs)
>Użytkownik "Fish Eye no Miko (with her new heart and lungs)"
>
>> It could still be said today. People still kill each other for
"religious"
>> reasons.
>
>Yes! Middle East!
Please... people kill other people for "religious" reasons here in the US.
>But no one is perfect! I live in the country where religion stands on high
>position in one's hierarchy of value. That's good, but only then when
people
>understand it in right way.
Note that I put the word religious in quotes... MOST religions oppose
violence for the most part (except in self defense). Most people who hurt
and kill for "religious" reasons are interpreting their religion
incorrectly. And, yes, I know there's a wide range of "correct"
interpretations for many religions, but...
Oy, maybe I should bail out of this thread now...
Catherine Johnson.
--
Remove "stilla" to reply
"Was it all a dream? Or a vision?
Or maybe Dilandau hit me just a little too hard?"
-From the fanfic "Wish You Were Here?" by Rachel Young.
cpt. Martin
>
> Please... people kill other people for "religious" reasons here in the US.
The most famous is... The Middle East!
> Note that I put the word religious in quotes... MOST religions oppose
> violence for the most part (except in self defense). Most people who hurt
> and kill for "religious" reasons are interpreting their religion
> incorrectly. And, yes, I know there's a wide range of "correct"
> interpretations for many religions, but...
> Oy, maybe I should bail out of this thread now...
Violance isn't a solution! I can't see an explenation for killing for "religious" reasons.
Fish Eye no Miko (with her new heart and lungs)
>Użytkownik "Fish Eye no Miko (with her new heart and lungs)"
>
>> >Yes! Middle East!
>>
>> Please... people kill other people for "religious" reasons here in the
US.
>
>The most famous is... The Middle East!
So? That doesn't mean it doesn't happen here.
>> Note that I put the word religious in quotes... MOST religions oppose
>> violence for the most part (except in self defense). Most people who
hurt
>> and kill for "religious" reasons are interpreting their religion
>> incorrectly. And, yes, I know there's a wide range of "correct"
>> interpretations for many religions, but...
>> Oy, maybe I should bail out of this thread now...
>
>Violance isn't a solution! I can't see an explenation for killing for
"religious" reasons.
Well, apparently a lot of people feel they can justify it, since they've
been doing it for millennia.
cpt. Martin
> Well, apparently a lot of people feel they can justify it, since they've
> been doing it for millennia.
It's time to change it! We are living in XXI sentry!!! If one want's to be called a human, one
should reject all kind of violence.
fang...@gmail.com
> Hotaru is all gloomy and a bit dark. ChibiUsa is too cheerful and kawaii-ly
> pink. Why are they friends? Maybe Hotaru really has a cheerful and pink
> side and ChibiUsa has a dark side.
>
And Hotaru in return, even underneath the damage Mistress 9 had done to her life and body, actually proved very outgoing and found the strength to protect Chibi-Usa.
Hotaru isn't so much dark as she is stoic and serious. You can't judge the character the way she was in the Infinity arc, because... well, she had an alien parasite inside of her. Anyone would seem melancholy in a situation like that, wouldn't they?
But Hotaru's stoic nature is something Chibi-Usa can relate to, as she, in general, has a more mature and serious personality than her mother.
Her being Usagi's daughter might make people overstate Chibi-Usa's cheerfulness, but she is actually very introvert as evidenced in the Black Moon arc and the Queen Nehelennia arc.
The reason they are such good friends is that neither of them leans one way when it comes to personality.
Chibi-Usa is a little more open and Hotaru is a little more focused, but underneath that they are actually very much alike.
And it is because they can relate to the more introspective aspects of each other's personality that they feel free to lose their inhibitions and feel cheerful when they are together.