Sailor Moon to Return to Television?
Marv (Chris)
told that since The Sailor Moon Movies Videos are selling very well and
the Upcomming Dunned Versions to be release over the next few months and
since the Series still is very popular among people in the ages of 13
-25 that Disney (of all Companies) and its subsidorary DiC Entertainment
are considering to resume producing Dubbed Episodes of Sailor Moon. One
of the reasons why is that Disney has planned a Live Action Film version
of the series and wants to use the Series as a way to promote the film.
Now I know Dic could care less with Sailor Moon, but we all know how
Disney gets when trying to cash in on a Popular Idea, but Would people
welcome the return of th series after this long time off TV? Plus how
would the hard core fans feel if they continue to dubb the show by
cutting and changing lines? Personally as long as the dubbng is done
better than the last 17 Episode I could enoy it. I would love to see SM
return to TV and finally see SMS, but I have feeling that i was being
lied to since if there was any possible return of Sailor Moon to TV of
anykind it would have been posted here first am I right?
Thanks!
Marv
Robert Hutchinson
Yes. No! ... pass!
Ugh.
Robert Hutchinson
Xplo Eristotle
No, it's all true. Really. Don't believe those nagging doubts and
naysayers, impossible things really DO happen all the time if you want
them to happen badly enough. Honest.
--
Xplo Eristotle
http://start.at/xplosion/
Chris Kern
<inqui...@unforgettable.com> posted the following:
>No, it's all true. Really. Don't believe those nagging doubts and
>naysayers, impossible things really DO happen all the time if you want
>them to happen badly enough. Honest.
Wow, Xplo, this is suprisingly optimistic of you! I'm sur....wait a
minute, is this sarcasm?
;-)
-Chris
Fish Eye No Miko
<10669-38...@storefull-106.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
>I just heard this last night when Sailor Moon was brought up and I was
>told that since The Sailor Moon Movies Videos are selling very well
>and the Upcomming Dunned Versions to be release over the next few
>months and since the Series still is very popular among people in the
>ages of 13 -25 that Disney (of all Companies) and its subsidorary DiC
>Entertainment are considering to resume producing Dubbed Episodes
>of Sailor Moon.
First of all, run on sentences are really hard to read... ^_^
Second, there's a very big difference between dubbing 3 movies and 100+
episodes of a series. Even if DIC only did S, that's 20-some episodes. And
it costs money. And SM isn't the cash cow DIC thought it would be. Without
funding from some other source, DIC won't dub anymore. Our best hope is
them giving up the rights (perhaps to Pioneer, who did the movies) and
having them release the remaining episodes on video.
>One of the reasons why is that Disney has planned a Live Action Film
>version of the series and wants to use the Series as a way to promote
>the film.
The movie is more than likely NOT going to happen. It's been talked about
for years, and is no closer to happening now then it was 2+ years ago when I
first became a fan.
>Now I know Dic could care less with Sailor Moon, but we all
>know how Disney gets when trying to cash in on a Popular Idea,
>but Would people welcome the return of th series after this long
>time off TV?
Actually, the reruns are still on Cartoon Network.
>Plus how would the hard core fans feel if they continue to dubb the
>show by cutting and changing lines?
Well, I think everyone know MY feelings on this, so I won't elaborate,
except to say: Yuck.
>Personally as long as the dubbng is done better than the last 17 Episode
>I could enoy it. I would love to see SM return to TV and finally see SMS,
>but I have feeling that i was being lied to since if there was any
possible
>return of Sailor Moon to TV of anykind it would have been posted here
>first am I right?
Probably.
And to give your "source" the benefit of the doubt, I don't think s/he was
lying so much as repeating an incorrect rumor s/he had heard somewhere.
>Thanks!
No prob. ^_^
Catherine Johnson.
--
Remove "3AT" to reply
Frank White
>
>I just heard this last night when Sailor Moon was brought up and I was
>told that since The Sailor Moon Movies Videos are selling very well and
>the Upcomming Dunned Versions to be release over the next few months and
>since the Series still is very popular among people in the ages of 13
>-25 that Disney (of all Companies) and its subsidorary DiC Entertainment
>are considering to resume producing Dubbed Episodes of Sailor Moon.
(grabs head in horror and pain at the idea and begins running
around in circles screaming "No-no-no-no!!")
>One
>of the reasons why is that Disney has planned a Live Action Film version
>of the series and wants to use the Series as a way to promote the film.
(Flashes back to Saban live action trailer. Stops running around
and collapses to the ground, convulsing.)
>Now I know Dic could care less with Sailor Moon, but we all know how
>Disney gets when trying to cash in on a Popular Idea, but Would people
>welcome the return of th series after this long time off TV? Plus how
>would the hard core fans feel if they continue to dubb the show by
>cutting and changing lines?
(Weakly tries to dig hole and crawl into it, prefering premature self-
burial to the prospect of a DiCed S season.)
> Personally as long as the dubbng is done
>better than the last 17 Episode I could enoy it. I would love to see SM
>return to TV and finally see SMS, but I have feeling that i was being
>lied to since if there was any possible return of Sailor Moon to TV of
>anykind it would have been posted here first am I right?
Cough. Cough.
This is a rumor that comes up. A lot. But the bottom line seems
to be that DiC and Disney have no further interest in Sailor Moon,
and no matter how successful the movies were, have no intention of
doing anything more than they've already done.
If you want to see S - in better shape than DiC would ever give
it to you - download episodes off the net, or visit VKLL and
buy some tapes from him. Those seem to be your main options.
FW
Kirk Rende
about to give you, kudos to you Catherine. It only took three posts to
reach yours that actually answered the questions (quite thoroughly). And
your advice about the writing style was good.
"Fish Eye No Miko" <fisheye3...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:84lo38$mnh$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> Marv (Chris) wrote in message
> <10669-38...@storefull-106.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
>
> >I just heard this last night when Sailor Moon was brought up and I was
> >told that since The Sailor Moon Movies Videos are selling very well
> >and the Upcomming Dunned Versions to be release over the next few
> >months and since the Series still is very popular among people in the
> >ages of 13 -25 that Disney (of all Companies) and its subsidorary DiC
> >Entertainment are considering to resume producing Dubbed Episodes
> >of Sailor Moon.
>
> First of all, run on sentences are really hard to read... ^_^
> Second, there's a very big difference between dubbing 3 movies and 100+
> episodes of a series. Even if DIC only did S, that's 20-some episodes.
And
> it costs money. And SM isn't the cash cow DIC thought it would be.
Without
> funding from some other source, DIC won't dub anymore. Our best hope is
> them giving up the rights (perhaps to Pioneer, who did the movies) and
> having them release the remaining episodes on video.
>
> >One of the reasons why is that Disney has planned a Live Action Film
> >version of the series and wants to use the Series as a way to promote
> >the film.
>
>
> The movie is more than likely NOT going to happen. It's been talked about
> for years, and is no closer to happening now then it was 2+ years ago when
I
> first became a fan.
>
> >Now I know Dic could care less with Sailor Moon, but we all
> >know how Disney gets when trying to cash in on a Popular Idea,
> >but Would people welcome the return of th series after this long
> >time off TV?
>
> Actually, the reruns are still on Cartoon Network.
>
> >Plus how would the hard core fans feel if they continue to dubb the
> >show by cutting and changing lines?
>
> Well, I think everyone know MY feelings on this, so I won't elaborate,
> except to say: Yuck.
>
> >Personally as long as the dubbng is done better than the last 17 Episode
> >I could enoy it. I would love to see SM return to TV and finally see SMS,
> >but I have feeling that i was being lied to since if there was any
> possible
> >return of Sailor Moon to TV of anykind it would have been posted here
> >first am I right?
>
>
Fish Eye No Miko
>If you want to see S - in better shape than DiC would ever
>give it to you - download episodes off the net, or visit VKLL
>and buy some tapes from him. Those seem to be your main
>options.
And you can visit VKLL at:
http://www.spots.ab.ca/~lamv/
Fish Eye No Miko
>If you will forgive the damage to your reputation for the compliment I am
>about to give you, kudos to you Catherine.
Thank you. ^_^
>It only took three posts to reach yours that actually answered the
questions (quite thoroughly).
Yep. I know all about people needing to read the FAQ, etc, etc, but
sometimes it's nice to just get a straight answer. Plus, I like to show off
how smart/knowledgeable I am. Hey, I admit it's kind of an ego thing. ^_^
>And your advice about the writing style was good.
Thanks. I try to be light on grammar flames; usually only doing them
politely, or when I can make a light hearted joke about them.
Skyrocket
> >told that since The Sailor Moon Movies Videos are selling very well
> >and the Upcomming Dunned Versions to be release over the next few
> >months and since the Series still is very popular among people in the
> >ages of 13 -25 that Disney (of all Companies) and its subsidorary DiC
> >Entertainment are considering to resume producing Dubbed Episodes
> >of Sailor Moon.
>
> First of all, run on sentences are really hard to read... ^_^
> Second, there's a very big difference between dubbing 3 movies and 100+
> episodes of a series. Even if DIC only did S, that's 20-some episodes. And
> it costs money. And SM isn't the cash cow DIC thought it would be. Without
> funding from some other source, DIC won't dub anymore. Our best hope is
> them giving up the rights (perhaps to Pioneer, who did the movies) and
> having them release the remaining episodes on video.
Not going to happen. Someone asked SM's old producer, Janice Sonski, that at San
Diego Con and she said it was up to Cartoon Network if S would be dubbed. BTW,
my source on this is 100% solid. It's me. I was there when she said it.
> >Plus how would the hard core fans feel if they continue to dub the
> >show by cutting and changing lines?
I've got some mixed feelings on this. I've seen some of S subbed and it's a good
season. But fan subs cost $ and downloading them off Senshi TV takes a lot of
time. It would be nice to see the eps for free even if they'd been changed. And
since Cartoon Network would be in charge things might be different. CN really
seems to have it going on where anime is concerned.
Skyrocket
Fish Eye No Miko
>> Second, there's a very big difference between dubbing 3 movies and
>> 100+ episodes of a series. Even if DIC only did S, that's 20-some
>> episodes. And it costs money. And SM isn't the cash cow DIC thought it
>> would be. Without funding from some other source, DIC won't dub anymore.
>> Our best hope is them giving up the rights (perhaps to Pioneer, who did
the
>> movies) and having them release the remaining episodes on video.
>
>Not going to happen. Someone asked SM's old producer, Janice Sonski, that
>at San Diego Con and she said it was up to Cartoon Network if S would be
>dubbed. BTW, my source on this is 100% solid. It's me. I was there when she
>said it.
Wasn't this before the movies were released, though (I forget the dates for
these two events)? Also, DIC won't have the right forever. Unless they buy
them again after they lose them, they'll be up for grabs, then anyone could
snatch them up and release them. I'm not saying this WILL happen, but it
*could*. For the rocord, I am NOT questioning you or your source, but DIC
can only say what will happen to SM when they have it. Once they don't own
the rights anymore, they don't have any say.
And, frankly, the release of the movies by Pioneer- something that seemed
impossible to a lot of fans a year or so ago- has made me very leery of
saying "it'll never happen" about ANYTHING related to SM.
Andy Hock
>
> "Marv (Chris)" wrote:
> >
> > I would love to see SM
> > return to TV and finally see SMS, but I have feeling that i was being
> > lied to since if there was any possible return of Sailor Moon to TV of
> > anykind it would have been posted here first am I right?
>
> naysayers, impossible things really DO happen all the time if you want
> them to happen badly enough. Honest.
Though I know you wrote this with complete sarcasm, I think there's
a point here. I know that there's not one shot in hell of more SM
dub (nor am I entirely sure it would be a good thing, anyway).
But the lesson of SuperS is that the world needs dreamers. If
Marv (Chris) wants to make this his dream, I say, "Dream on!"
Andy Hock
Xplo Eristotle
Ease off the dosage, Andy. SuperS teaches no such lesson.. not without a
LOT of stretching, anyway. I'll support your bid for the position of
Next Sailor Says Writer, though. :P
I have no objection to dreamers, what I object to is people taking their
dreams with them when they wake up and trying to reshape my world to fit
their vision.. particularly when I disapprove of their vision's
inclusion in my world, or when they can't possibly achieve their dream,
but constantly annoy me by trying (with email chain-letter petitions,
f'r example).
Fish Eye No Miko
>Andy Hock wrote:
>
>> But the lesson of SuperS is that the world needs dreamers. If
>> Marv (Chris) wants to make this his dream, I say, "Dream on!"
>
>Ease off the dosage, Andy. SuperS teaches no such lesson.. not
>without a LOT of stretching, anyway.
It doesn't?
Xplo Eristotle
Fish Eye No Miko wrote:
>
> Xplo Eristotle wrote in message <386E9618...@unforgettable.com>...
>
> >Andy Hock wrote:
> >
> >> But the lesson of SuperS is that the world needs dreamers. If
> >> Marv (Chris) wants to make this his dream, I say, "Dream on!"
> >
> >Ease off the dosage, Andy. SuperS teaches no such lesson.. not
> >without a LOT of stretching, anyway.
>
> It doesn't?
Mind explaining how it does? With the possible exception of the ending,
I don't see how it demonstrates that we need dreamers.. and in the case
of that ending, it was the Evil Villain Taking Over that was the real problem.
Matthew Patterson
> told that since The Sailor Moon Movies Videos are selling very well and
> the Upcomming Dunned Versions to be release over the next few months and
> since the Series still is very popular among people in the ages of 13
> -25 that Disney (of all Companies) and its subsidorary DiC Entertainment
> of the reasons why is that Disney has planned a Live Action Film version
> of the series and wants to use the Series as a way to promote the film.
> Disney gets when trying to cash in on a Popular Idea, but Would people
> would the hard core fans feel if they continue to dubb the show by
> cutting and changing lines? Personally as long as the dubbng is done
> better than the last 17 Episode I could enoy it. I would love to see SM
> return to TV and finally see SMS, but I have feeling that i was being
> lied to since if there was any possible return of Sailor Moon to TV of
> anykind it would have been posted here first am I right?
>
> Marv
Congratulations... you just poste3d the story that returns to SOS every
other update. It's clear that Disney and DiC have no further interest in
Sailormoon. I wouldn't welcome a new dub, especially not a hacked-up one. I
would rather see the episodes subbed or even raw Japanese. (But my opinions
on this matterhave been scattered all around thing NG, as well as my web
page... so I'll shut up now.)
--
Visit my site, located at
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/Bunsen_Moone/index.html. And while you're at
it, sign the guestbook. And flame at your own risk.
--
Moonie Code:
SM:5+m- F:sPl>+:vM9+:aQs:pS* D:sCh:vAn+:aPe X:***:a3r[+]|35s++|ClR
O:d-[-]:s-[-]:a[-]:h+:x? P:a15:s56:w145:f:eBLg:hBlBr:t-:cWhNA:*Ta:x?:r+|+
-M
Fish Eye No Miko
Hmmm... Well, you could be right... It *does* stress the important of
dreams, though... How they sustain you, how empty your life would be
without them (Fish Eye's little dilemma in 148), and things of that nature.
Andy Hock
>
> Andy Hock wrote:
> >
> > Though I know you wrote this with complete sarcasm, I think there's
> > a point here. I know that there's not one shot in hell of more SM
> > dub (nor am I entirely sure it would be a good thing, anyway).
> > Marv (Chris) wants to make this his dream, I say, "Dream on!"
>
> Ease off the dosage, Andy. SuperS teaches no such lesson.. not without a
> Next Sailor Says Writer, though. :P
If there's money involved, I'll take the job! ^_-
> I have no objection to dreamers, what I object to is people taking their
> dreams with them when they wake up and trying to reshape my world to fit
> their vision.. particularly when I disapprove of their vision's
> inclusion in my world,
How would it hurt you if they dub S? I admit, I don't want to
see it, either, but it wouldn't hurt if those who want a dubbed
S get to see it, would it?
> or when they can't possibly achieve their dream,
> but constantly annoy me by trying (with email chain-letter petitions,
> f'r example).
Chain letters are a different story . . . I hate them. If I got one,
I might change my position. Fortunately, I haven't.
Andy Hock
Andy Hock
Fish Eye No Miko wrote:
>
> Xplo Eristotle wrote in message <386E9618...@unforgettable.com>...
>
> >Andy Hock wrote:
> >
> >> But the lesson of SuperS is that the world needs dreamers. If
> >> Marv (Chris) wants to make this his dream, I say, "Dream on!"
> >
> >Ease off the dosage, Andy. SuperS teaches no such lesson.. not
> >without a LOT of stretching, anyway.
>
> It doesn't?
Thanks for your support! ^_-
Andy Hock
Skyrocket
> >> 100+ episodes of a series. Even if DIC only did S, that's 20-some
> >> episodes. And it costs money. And SM isn't the cash cow DIC thought it
> >> would be. Without funding from some other source, DIC won't dub anymore.
> >> Our best hope is them giving up the rights (perhaps to Pioneer, who did
> the
> >> movies) and having them release the remaining episodes on video.
> >
> >Not going to happen. Someone asked SM's old producer, Janice Sonski, that
> >at San Diego Con and she said it was up to Cartoon Network if S would be
> >dubbed. BTW, my source on this is 100% solid. It's me. I was there when she
> >said it.
>
> Wasn't this before the movies were released, though (I forget the dates for
> these two events)?
Sort of. We watched about half of the S moive subbed so people knew what was
going on.
> Also, DIC won't have the right forever. Unless they buy
> them again after they lose them, they'll be up for grabs, then anyone could
> snatch them up and release them. I'm not saying this WILL happen, but it
> *could*. For the rocord, I am NOT questioning you or your source, but DIC
> can only say what will happen to SM when they have it. Once they don't own
> the rights anymore, they don't have any say.
Well, IIRC, DIC has the rights for at least the next few years. After that who
the hell knows. All I'm saying is don't hold your breath.
Skyrocket
PhnxFire
would rather see the episodes subbed or even raw Japanese. (But my opinions
on this matterhave been scattered all around thing NG, as well as my web
page... so I'll shut up now.) >>
When's the last time you saw a subtitled series on any major network...
(for that matter, when's the last time you've seen a subtitled series
anywhere!)
PhnxFire "I'm on a quest to prove that I'm the biggest pluto fan of all time."
SM:5- F:sPl>+++:vMi++:aQs:pSR D:sMa- X:[*]
"Minna-wa Mini-ga daisuki!"
Jikuu no hoshi. meiousei wo shugo ni motsu henkaku no senshi,
seeraapuruuto!
Fish Eye No Miko
<SMS & beyond subbed/dubbed/etc?>
>> >Not going to happen. Someone asked SM's old producer, Janice Sonski,
>> >that at San Diego Con and she said it was up to Cartoon Network if S
>> >would be dubbed. BTW, my source on this is 100% solid. It's me. I was
there
>> >when she said it.
>>
>> Wasn't this before the movies were released, though (I forget the dates
for
>> these two events)?
>
>Sort of. We watched about half of the S moive subbed so people knew what
was
>going on.
Yes, but had they been *released*? I've heard they've done quite well,
which might influence whether or not someone would want to do the series
(and yes, I know, three movies versus a long series, yadda, yadda... But
still)...
>> Also, DIC won't have the right forever. Unless they buy
>> them again after they lose them, they'll be up for grabs, then anyone
could
>> snatch them up and release them. I'm not saying this WILL happen, but it
>> *could*. For the rocord, I am NOT questioning you or your source, but
DIC
>> can only say what will happen to SM when they have it. Once they don't
own
>> the rights anymore, they don't have any say.
>
>Well, IIRC, DIC has the rights for at least the next few years. After that
who
>the hell knows. All I'm saying is don't hold your breath.
Oh, I'm not. I'm not saying "never", either.
Andy Hock
>
> >I don't see how it demonstrates that we need dreamers.. and in the case
> >of that ending, it was the Evil Villain Taking Over that was the real
> problem.
That's the problem now, too.
"The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is
against
chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of
hope,
the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender."
-- J. Michael Straczynski
THERE's the Evil Villain Taking Over. It's a metaphor.
> Hmmm... Well, you could be right... It *does* stress the important of
> dreams, though... How they sustain you, how empty your life would be
> without them (Fish Eye's little dilemma in 148), and things of that nature.
***Spoilers Below***
*
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*
*
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It's ALL about dreams in SuperS. Elios has to be convinced not to
abandon his dream. Even Usagi's big plunge at the end is not an
act of sacrifice, but an act of dreaming. When she jumps, she knows
she has no possible way of succeeding in rescuing Chibi Usa, so
she's not sacrificing her life for Chibi Usa's -- she's DREAMING.
And in dreams, the impossible sometimes happens!
"Sometimes you die . . . and sometimes you wake up . . .
and sometimes you learn to fly."
-- Neil Gaiman (on dreaming about falling)
Andy Hock
Robert Hutchinson
>
> Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> >
> > "Marv (Chris)" wrote:
> > >
> > > return to TV and finally see SMS, but I have feeling that i was being
> > > lied to since if there was any possible return of Sailor Moon to TV of
> > > anykind it would have been posted here first am I right?
> >
> > naysayers, impossible things really DO happen all the time if you want
> > them to happen badly enough. Honest.
>
> a point here. I know that there's not one shot in hell of more SM
> dub (nor am I entirely sure it would be a good thing, anyway).
> Marv (Chris) wants to make this his dream, I say, "Dream on!"
There's a fundamental flaw in this argument: the dreams in SuperS were
more like goals. Marv's dream is more like a daydream.
Robert Hutchinson
Sailor Dni
>anywhere!)
On the International Channel. Most of the Chinese dramas are subbed in at least
Chinese, if not english, or sometimes both. Biidaa!
-Sailor D'ni. Wouldn't _you_ like to know.
Random Quote: "Damn straight I'm a Mars-loving wench!"
http://redrival.com/sailordni
The Eater of the Pikachu
Am I the only one who found this funny?!
--
Eatpikauihsuohiuoachuu
sig snipped
Miki no Miko
The Eater of the Pikachu <eatpi...@aol.commmmmgood> wrote in message
news:20000102091501...@ng-ci1.aol.com...
> <<Dunned Versions>>
>
> Am I the only one who found this funny?!
You may be the only one who noticed. ^_^;;
--
Miki no Miko
I've been BIT! by an Erich Owens!
And an Adrian Tymes!
Oh yeah, and a Pook! too. ^_^
MoonieCode(1.12.05) SM:5[6]
F:sSa<[++]Se>[++]:vGa[+]Al>:aDi>[++]Pe[+]:pGx>[+++]S>[++]
D:sCh>[---]Me<[-]:aSh[-]Ch[-]:pSS<[-]Cl<[-] X:[*]:aSSS*s[+]|ClRd[+]:m5s
O:d--:s--:o?:a-:h+++:x++ P:a13:s54:w165:eBrg:hBrL:t--:cWh:*Cp:x+++H:r[+]|[+]
Fish Eye No Miko
>The Eater of the Pikachu <eatpi...@aol.commmmmgood> wrote in message
>news:20000102091501...@ng-ci1.aol.com...
>>
>> <<Dunned Versions>>
>>
>> Am I the only one who found this funny?!
>
>You may be the only one who noticed. ^_^;;
I did too! I just didn't feel the need to comment... <shrug>
^_^
Sailor Jes
>dub (nor am I entirely sure it would be a good thing, anyway).
Okay, kids, we're going to pull a Chibi-Usa and travel back in AFSM time a
little.
I remember when Sailor Moon first went off of the air in North America. Ratings
were low and pessimissm was high. Occasionally, there would be a newbie of some
sort asking "I heard a rumor that Sailor Moon was coming back to TV. Is this
true?" And following this, many people would post that this unfortunate retard
was living in a dream world, etc. etc. People scoffed at SOS (strawberry
poptarts?) and all of their efforts. But, then, something happened. Sailor
Moon came back! SOS, the newbies, the optimists proved many of us AFSMers
wrong.
Now, while I may have my issues with SOS, some newbies, and any more Sailor
Moon dubbed eps, the "moral" of this post is that anything's possible. Even
the most seemingly farfetched things. And it's kinda sad how quick some people
are to dismiss things and not have any kind of faith <especially> given that we
are a group of <Sailor Moon> fans and that one of the themes of SM is believing
in the impossible.
> If
>Marv (Chris) wants to make this his dream, I say, "Dream on!"
Ditto
Sailor Jes
^*Moonie Code*^
SM:6+m+ F:sMo++Ur:vEuGa:pSGx D:vM-Es X:***:a80r|70s|65d:52r
O:d-:s+:o:a:h:x?P:a17:s54:w:f+:eGrLg:hRL+:t--:cWh:*Sc:x:r+|+
Fish Eye No Miko
<20000102163014...@ng-fg1.aol.com>...
>> I know that there's not one shot in hell of more SM
>>dub (nor am I entirely sure it would be a good thing, anyway).
>
>Okay, kids, we're going to pull a Chibi-Usa and travel back in AFSM time a
>little.
>
>I remember when Sailor Moon first went off of the air in North America.
Ratings
>were low and pessimissm was high. Occasionally, there would be a newbie of
>some sort asking "I heard a rumor that Sailor Moon was coming back to TV.
>Is this true?" And following this, many people would post that this
unfortunate
>retard was living in a dream world, etc. etc. People scoffed at SOS
(strawberry
>poptarts?) and all of their efforts. But, then, something happened.
Sailor
>Moon came back! SOS, the newbies, the optimists proved many of us AFSMers
>wrong.
No. Irwin and the Cartoon Network proved the pessimists wrong. SOS, the
newbies, and and optimists had little, if anything, to do with it.
Xplo Eristotle
Andy Hock wrote:
>
> Fish Eye No Miko wrote:
> >
> > Xplo Eristotle wrote in message <386EB62C...@unforgettable.com>...
> >
> > >Fish Eye No Miko wrote:
> > >> Xplo Eristotle wrote in message <386E9618...@unforgettable.com>...
> > >> >
> > >> >Ease off the dosage, Andy. SuperS teaches no such lesson.. not
> > >> >without a LOT of stretching, anyway.
> > >>
> > >> It doesn't?
> > >
> > >Mind explaining how it does? With the possible exception of the ending,
> > >I don't see how it demonstrates that we need dreamers.. and in the case
> > >of that ending, it was the Evil Villain Taking Over that was the real
> > problem.
>
> That's the problem now, too.
>
> "The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is
> against
> chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of
> hope,
> the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender."
> -- J. Michael Straczynski
>
> THERE's the Evil Villain Taking Over. It's a metaphor.
Calling Neherenia a metaphor is, at best, entirely subjective. SM takes
place in a fantasy world where we are expected to accept that people
like her, the Senshi, Elios et al actually exist, and you could hardly
claim that the story is presented as a fable or allegory. (Well, you
could, but I'd say you were a loon.) You're inventing symbolism where
none is intended.
And despair isn't an "evil villain" in any sense; it's just something
that exists. You might as well have as your antagonist rust, or heat
dissipation, or the Doppler Effect.
Yes.. but this doesn't TEACH us anything. (And your claim in regards to
Usagi performing an act of dreaming is, at best, a terrible stretch.
Please consult your dictionary for a definition of "dream"; I daresay
that none of the meanings given will be "perform acts of gross stupidity
and/or blind faith", which is what you're doing when you're NOT SLEEPING
and you voluntarily fall thousands of feet straight down with no means
of stopping yourself save hitting the ground.)
Consider S. It doesn't TEACH us that sacrifice is sometimes necessary.
It doesn't TEACH us that sacrifice is never necessary. It doesn't TEACH
us that lesbians are cool. It doesn't TEACH us a damn thing, really. To
claim otherwise would be to confuse the inclusion of a theme with its
promotion or relevance to our lives.. no matter how many misplaced
quotes you manage to dredge up which, you think, demonstrate otherwise.
If this is what passes for literary comprehension these days, a lot of
depressing things suddenly make more sense, though they don't get any
less depressing.
Craxton
> >
> >> But the lesson of SuperS is that the world needs dreamers. If
> >> Marv (Chris) wants to make this his dream, I say, "Dream on!"
> >
> >without a LOT of stretching, anyway.
>
*BiiiiiiiiDAAAAAAAAAAAs Xplo from across the killfile gap*
-Craxton
Xplo Eristotle
Scott Delahunt wrote:
>
> "Fish Eye No Miko" (fisheye3...@mindspring.com) writes:
> > Sailor Jes wrote in message
> > <20000102163014...@ng-fg1.aol.com>...
> >>Okay, kids, we're going to pull a Chibi-Usa and travel back in AFSM time a
> >>little.
>
> <insert wavy lines here :>
>
> >>I remember when Sailor Moon first went off of the air in North America.
> >> Ratings
> >>were low and pessimissm was high. Occasionally, there would be a newbie of
> >>some sort asking "I heard a rumor that Sailor Moon was coming back to TV.
> >>Is this true?" And following this, many people would post that this
> >> unfortunate
> >>retard was living in a dream world, etc. etc. People scoffed at SOS
> >> (strawberry
> >>poptarts?) and all of their efforts. But, then, something happened.
> >> Sailor
> >>Moon came back! SOS, the newbies, the optimists proved many of us AFSMers
> >>wrong.
> > No. Irwin and the Cartoon Network proved the pessimists wrong. SOS, the
> > newbies, and and optimists had little, if anything, to do with it.
>
> Keep in mind that all of the above is from the US perspective. In Canada,
> Sailor Moon was on the air almost continuously for three years (IIRC) since
> August 1995. Irwin's success with Sailor Moon merchandise up here, plus
> the stability of having not one but two national stations (the
> Canwest-Global network plus YTV) is what got the last 17 eps of SMR dubbed.
>
> In short, you Yanks owe us. :)
We OWE you? For more dubbing?
Scott, you traitor. ;P
Scott Delahunt
<insert wavy lines here :>
--
Scott Delahunt | "All vodka corrupts, but Absolut Vodka corrupts
cn...@freenet.carleton.ca | Absolutly."
http://www.ncf.ca/~cn236 | - Bowser & Blue
Scott Delahunt
> Scott Delahunt wrote:
>> Keep in mind that all of the above is from the US perspective. In Canada,
>> Sailor Moon was on the air almost continuously for three years (IIRC) since
>> August 1995. Irwin's success with Sailor Moon merchandise up here, plus
>> the stability of having not one but two national stations (the
>> Canwest-Global network plus YTV) is what got the last 17 eps of SMR dubbed.
>>
>> In short, you Yanks owe us. :)
Yup.
> Scott, you traitor. ;P
Go look at all my posts. Point out where I've slammed the dub.
Andy Hock
>
> > I know that there's not one shot in hell of more SM
> >dub (nor am I entirely sure it would be a good thing, anyway).
>
> little.
>
> were low and pessimissm was high. Occasionally, there would be a newbie of some
> sort asking "I heard a rumor that Sailor Moon was coming back to TV. Is this
> true?" And following this, many people would post that this unfortunate retard
> was living in a dream world, etc. etc. People scoffed at SOS (strawberry
> poptarts?) and all of their efforts. But, then, something happened. Sailor
> Moon came back! SOS, the newbies, the optimists proved many of us AFSMers
> wrong.
Sometimes, dreams come true. ^_-
> Now, while I may have my issues with SOS, some newbies, and any more Sailor
> Moon dubbed eps, the "moral" of this post is that anything's possible. Even
> the most seemingly farfetched things. And it's kinda sad how quick some people
> are to dismiss things and not have any kind of faith <especially> given that we
> are a group of <Sailor Moon> fans and that one of the themes of SM is believing
> in the impossible.
You got it! That's what I love about Sailor Moon!!!!!
Andy Hock
Andy Hock
>
> Keep in mind that all of the above is from the US perspective. In Canada,
> Sailor Moon was on the air almost continuously for three years (IIRC) since
> August 1995. Irwin's success with Sailor Moon merchandise up here, plus
> the stability of having not one but two national stations (the
> Canwest-Global network plus YTV) is what got the last 17 eps of SMR dubbed.
>
> In short, you Yanks owe us. :)
Thank you, Canada!!
Andy Hock
Tiggs (AndyK)
<ser...@hotmail.com> did write...
>There's a fundamental flaw in this argument: the dreams in SuperS were
>more like goals. Marv's dream is more like a daydream.
But the difference between the two is just a metter of perspective.
I want to be a writer. To some people, I'm just daydreaming. For me,
it's a real goal.
Tiggs
--
Tiggs (Andy Kitching)
Don't let the fire burn out.
Don't lose your sense of self.
Don't let who you should be obscure who you are!
- Andy Kitching 1999
Robert Hutchinson
>
> It was alt.fan.sailor-moon, and Robert Hutchinson
> <ser...@hotmail.com> did write...
>
> >There's a fundamental flaw in this argument: the dreams in SuperS were
> >more like goals. Marv's dream is more like a daydream.
>
> But the difference between the two is just a metter of perspective.
>
> I want to be a writer. To some people, I'm just daydreaming. For me,
> it's a real goal.
Everything's a matter of perspective, when it's all boiled down. I hope
you're not telling me your dream of being a writer (even if it is somewhat
a flight of fancy) compares to the "dream" of SM dubbing.
Robert Hutchinson
Frank White
->
->Andy Hock wrote:
->>
->> Fish Eye No Miko wrote:
->> >
->> > Xplo Eristotle wrote in message <386EB62C...@unforgettable.com>...
->> >
->> > >Fish Eye No Miko wrote:
->> > >> Xplo Eristotle wrote in message <386E9618...@unforgettable.com>...
->> > >> >
->> > >> >Ease off the dosage, Andy. SuperS teaches no such lesson.. not
->> > >> >without a LOT of stretching, anyway.
->> > >>
->> > >> It doesn't?
->> > >
->> > >Mind explaining how it does? With the possible exception of the ending,
->> > >I don't see how it demonstrates that we need dreamers.. and in the case
->> > >of that ending, it was the Evil Villain Taking Over that was the real
->> > problem.
->>
->> That's the problem now, too.
->>
->> "The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is
->> against
->> chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of
->> hope,
->> the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender."
->> -- J. Michael Straczynski
JMS writes so darn well...
->> THERE's the Evil Villain Taking Over. It's a metaphor.
->
->Calling Neherenia a metaphor is, at best, entirely subjective. SM takes
->place in a fantasy world where we are expected to accept that people
->like her, the Senshi, Elios et al actually exist, and you could hardly
->claim that the story is presented as a fable or allegory. (Well, you
->could, but I'd say you were a loon.) You're inventing symbolism where
->none is intended.
>
->And despair isn't an "evil villain" in any sense;
Dementors.
(shudder)
-it's just something
->that exists. You might as well have as your antagonist rust, or heat
->dissipation, or the Doppler Effect.
->
->> ***Spoilers Below***
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<snip>
>Yes.. but this doesn't TEACH us anything. (And your claim in regards to
>Usagi performing an act of dreaming is, at best, a terrible stretch.
>Please consult your dictionary for a definition of "dream"; I daresay
>that none of the meanings given will be "perform acts of gross stupidity
>and/or blind faith", which is what you're doing when you're NOT SLEEPING
>and you voluntarily fall thousands of feet straight down with no means
>of stopping yourself save hitting the ground.)
Actually Usagi DID have a way. If she could reach ChibiUsa, and
wake her up, then they could use the Golden Crystal together to
save themselves. I'm not sure she thought that through before she
jumped, but she apparently realized it after she caught up to her.
It was more an act of faith and love than dreaming, Usagi's leap.
If she didn't jump, ChibiUsa was dead. If she did jump, ChibiUsa
had a chance. So Usagi did the same for her as she did for Hotaru:
Risked all to save someone she cared for.
And being Sailor Moon, she succeeded.
FW
Andy Hock
>
> Andy Hock wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Xplo Eristotle wrote in message <386EB62C...@unforgettable.com>...
> > >
> > > >> Xplo Eristotle wrote in message <386E9618...@unforgettable.com>...
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >Mind explaining how it does? With the possible exception of the ending,
> >
> > That's the problem now, too.
> >
> > chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of
> > the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender."
> >
> > THERE's the Evil Villain Taking Over. It's a metaphor.
>
I disagree. Sailor Moon is filled with symbolism and allegory,
and I believe it is very intentional.
> And despair isn't an "evil villain" in any sense; it's just something
> that exists. You might as well have as your antagonist rust, or heat
> dissipation, or the Doppler Effect.
I suppose you don't want to hear my theory on why entropy is
the devil, then. ^_-
> Yes.. but this doesn't TEACH us anything. (And your claim in regards to
> Usagi performing an act of dreaming is, at best, a terrible stretch.
> Please consult your dictionary for a definition of "dream"; I daresay
> that none of the meanings given will be "perform acts of gross stupidity
> and/or blind faith", which is what you're doing when you're NOT SLEEPING
> and you voluntarily fall thousands of feet straight down with no means
> of stopping yourself save hitting the ground.)
Well, it seems to be just the kind of thing referred to in the
song "The Impossible Dream". That song contains a lot of action
verbs like "run" and "go" used in connection with dreaming. I
don't recall "jump" anywhere, but it fits the pattern.
> Consider S. It doesn't TEACH us that sacrifice is sometimes necessary.
> It doesn't TEACH us that sacrifice is never necessary. It doesn't TEACH
> us that lesbians are cool. It doesn't TEACH us a damn thing, really. To
> claim otherwise would be to confuse the inclusion of a theme with its
> promotion or relevance to our lives.. no matter how many misplaced
> quotes you manage to dredge up which, you think, demonstrate otherwise.
I feel the lessons are intentional. Even if they aren't, I could
substitute "We can learn" for "It teaches".
> If this is what passes for literary comprehension these days, a lot of
> depressing things suddenly make more sense, though they don't get any
> less depressing.
I think I see why our communication is failing. You appear to be
what the Myers Briggs Type Indicator calls an "S". You see things
the way they are. "S's" can be fine people, but they're not much
as dreamers. I, on the other hand, am an "N", and tend to see
symbols and possibilities in everything. Neither type is better,
but they're different. I don't feel I have poor literary
comprehension, but I don't think you do, either. I think we
just look at the same data through different "filters" and so
we see different things.
Andy Hock
>
> In article <386FEB06...@unforgettable.com>, inqui...@unforgettable.com says...
> ->
> ->Andy Hock wrote:
> ->>
> ->> against
> ->> chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of
> ->> hope,
> ->> the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender."
> ->> -- J. Michael Straczynski
>
> JMS writes so darn well...
Yes, he does! Have you gotten a hold of his new "Rising Stars"
comic series? It's excellent.
> >Yes.. but this doesn't TEACH us anything. (And your claim in regards to
> >Usagi performing an act of dreaming is, at best, a terrible stretch.
> >Please consult your dictionary for a definition of "dream"; I daresay
> >that none of the meanings given will be "perform acts of gross stupidity
> >and/or blind faith", which is what you're doing when you're NOT SLEEPING
> >and you voluntarily fall thousands of feet straight down with no means
> >of stopping yourself save hitting the ground.)
>
> Actually Usagi DID have a way. If she could reach ChibiUsa, and
> wake her up, then they could use the Golden Crystal together to
> save themselves. I'm not sure she thought that through before she
> jumped, but she apparently realized it after she caught up to her.
I don't think she'd thought of it when she jumped.
> It was more an act of faith and love than dreaming, Usagi's leap.
> If she didn't jump, ChibiUsa was dead. If she did jump, ChibiUsa
> had a chance. So Usagi did the same for her as she did for Hotaru:
> Risked all to save someone she cared for.
I think it was all three. Faith and love are a lot of what
this kind of dreaming are about. (Idle thought: So is hope.
this makes up the "trio" in I Cor 13 -- faith, hope and love.
I wonder if there's a common archetype at work here . . .)
> And being Sailor Moon, she succeeded.
She always does. Sailor moon has even returned from the dead
twice, which is once more than Jesus, Gandalf, or John Sheridan
can claim.
Andy Hock
Andy Hock
In the end, isn't everything a matter of perspective?
Andy Hock
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."
-- Kosh
Andy Hock
>
> It was alt.fan.sailor-moon, and Robert Hutchinson
> <ser...@hotmail.com> did write...
>
> >There's a fundamental flaw in this argument: the dreams in SuperS were
> >more like goals. Marv's dream is more like a daydream.
>
> But the difference between the two is just a metter of perspective.
>
> I want to be a writer. To some people, I'm just daydreaming. For me,
> it's a real goal.
In the children's' book "The Phantom Tollbooth", Milo (the protagonist)
is sent on a quest. After he succeeds, those around him reveal one
important fact about his quest -- it was impossible. If they had told
him this before he went questing, he probably would never have gone,
and surely would have failed if he did. The lesson here (or "what we
can learn" if you prefer, Xplo) is that dreams are only impossible if
we believe they are.*
> Don't let the fire burn out.
> Don't lose your sense of self.
> Don't let who you should be obscure who you are!
> - Andy Kitching 1999
This is excellent work!
Andy Hock
* My thanks to Neil Gaiman for pointing out this illustration.
The wording is mine, but the illustration itself is his.
Sailor Jes
>>wrong.
>
>
>newbies, and and optimists had little, if anything, to do with it.
No, technically USA proved us wrong....but also the newbies, SOS, and optimists
because they hoped it would come back and it did.
Fish Eye No Miko
>>SOS, the newbies, the optimists proved many of us AFSMers
>>>wrong.
>>
>>No. Irwin and the Cartoon Network proved the pessimists wrong.
>>SOS, the newbies, and and optimists had little, if anything, to do with
it.
>
>No, technically USA proved us wrong....
h, this is back when it was still on USA. Ok.
>but also the newbies, SOS, and optimists because they hoped it would
>come back and it did.
Um. yes, but they had little or nothing to do with it coming back. When
someone proves someone wrong, they usually have something to do with the
thing in question...
Scott Delahunt
>>No. Irwin and the Cartoon Network proved the pessimists wrong. SOS, the
>>newbies, and and optimists had little, if anything, to do with it.
> because they hoped it would come back and it did.
The newbies, SOS, and optimists had very little to do with it. Strong
ratings plus strong merchandise sales in Canada kept the series alive. Go
back a few posts to where I point out the difference between what happened
in the US and in Canada.
DiC Defender
This is one of the reasons why I love Sailor Moon too! Call me an eternal
optimist, but I'll never stop believing that the dub of Sailor Moon S, and
that they'll continue to dub also. Viva la dub! =p
But anyway, I've also adopted another saying that I just recently learned
from Galaxy Quest.
Never give up, never surrender!
I love that quote...
Xplo Eristotle
Andy Hock wrote:
>
> In the children's' book "The Phantom Tollbooth", Milo (the protagonist)
> is sent on a quest. After he succeeds, those around him reveal one
> important fact about his quest -- it was impossible. If they had told
> him this before he went questing, he probably would never have gone,
> and surely would have failed if he did. The lesson here (or "what we
> can learn" if you prefer, Xplo) is that dreams are only impossible if
> we believe they are.
Unfortunately, this is a load of crap. Some things are, simply put, not
possible.. and they will NEVER be possible, no matter how many people
write fantastic stories to the contrary. If you believe otherwise, then
you are sadly delusional. *DELUSIONAL*. That's all there is to it.
To steer this (slightly) back toward the focus of the original posts,
consider a fellow who dreams of flying by flapping his arms. One day, in
an act that you would glorify with grossly misleading (and
unfortunately, popular) emotional appeals such as "daring to believe" or
"following one's dream" or "having faith", he leaps off of a cliff,
grinning broadly and flapping his arms like there's no tomorrow..
"challenging the limits of what was thought to be impossible". Sounds
grand, doesn't it? It's like something Usagi would do.
Later, when his crushed body is finally found, his death will be called
suicide. Oh, heroic, noble visionary, who killed himself out of sheer
idiocy.. it's so romantic! *_*
Those who are still following along might do well to point out that
wanting more dubs is hardly tantamount to jumping off of a cliff, since
it involves little if any risk or personal sacrifice. More's the pity,
says I; at least if dubbies were jumping off of cliffs, they could only
bug the rest of us to share in their dream once, and then a solution
would manifest itself and the rest of us could be free of THEIR sheer idiocy.
Robert Hutchinson
>
> Robert Hutchinson wrote:
> >
> > Tiggs (AndyK) wrote:
> > >
> > > It was alt.fan.sailor-moon, and Robert Hutchinson
> > > <ser...@hotmail.com> did write...
> > >
> > > >There's a fundamental flaw in this argument: the dreams in SuperS were
> > > >more like goals. Marv's dream is more like a daydream.
> > >
> > > But the difference between the two is just a metter of perspective.
> > >
> > > I want to be a writer. To some people, I'm just daydreaming. For me,
> > > it's a real goal.
> >
> > you're not telling me your dream of being a writer (even if it is somewhat
> > a flight of fancy) compares to the "dream" of SM dubbing.
>
> In the end, isn't everything a matter of perspective?
You'll find no argument from me on it, since I said as much in what you just
quoted. =P
Robert Hutchinson
Chris Kern
(Tiggs (AndyK)) posted the following:
>It was alt.fan.sailor-moon, and Robert Hutchinson
><ser...@hotmail.com> did write...
>
>>There's a fundamental flaw in this argument: the dreams in SuperS were
>>more like goals. Marv's dream is more like a daydream.
>
>But the difference between the two is just a metter of perspective.
>
>I want to be a writer. To some people, I'm just daydreaming. For me,
>it's a real goal.
There is a huge, huge difference between having a "dream" that
translates to a personal goal (like wanting to be a writer), and
having a "dream" that translates to something that you have no control
over, like SM being dubbed.
-Chris
Tiggs (AndyK)
write...
>"Tiggs (AndyK)" wrote:
<quote .sig snipped - it'll appear at the bottome here, anyway>
>This is excellent work!
Just down to a combination of disillusionment, and a 'phone
ocnversation to a friend who's also a SM fan and a writer-wannabe.
(And an occasional Lurker here- *waves* to Sunstar)
Actually, I suppose my .sig can be boiled down to one statement.
"Don't let your dreams die. However unlikely they are."
If it keeps you going, stick with it. The worst that can happen is
nothing happening.
Tiggs
--
Tiggs (Andy Kitching)
Don't let the fire burn out.
Robert Hutchinson
> Actually, I suppose my .sig can be boiled down to one statement.
> "Don't let your dreams die. However unlikely they are."
>
> If it keeps you going, stick with it. The worst that can happen is
> nothing happening.
On a cosmic scale, yes. On a personal scale, you've wasted your time,
and possibly others'.
Robert Hutchinson
And if an unattainable dream is "keeping you going," I feel for you.
Xplo Eristotle
Scott Johnson wrote:
>
> Xplo Eristotle <inqui...@unforgettable.com> wrote:
>
> > Andy Hock wrote:
> >>
> >> In the children's' book "The Phantom Tollbooth", Milo (the protagonist)
> >> is sent on a quest. After he succeeds, those around him reveal one
> >> important fact about his quest -- it was impossible. If they had told
> >> him this before he went questing, he probably would never have gone,
> >> and surely would have failed if he did. The lesson here (or "what we
> >> can learn" if you prefer, Xplo) is that dreams are only impossible if
> >> we believe they are.
>
> > Unfortunately, this is a load of crap. Some things are, simply put, not
> > possible.. and they will NEVER be possible, no matter how many people
> > write fantastic stories to the contrary. If you believe otherwise, then
> > you are sadly delusional. *DELUSIONAL*. That's all there is to it.
>
> There are things that are absolutely impossible, true. There are things
> that will never happen no matter how hard people try to make them so. The
> thing of it is, we're humans. We have a less-than-perfect track record at
> guessing exactly what those things are. In prior eras, people would have
> said you were delusional if you expected man to ever walk on the moon, or
> to fly in something heavier than air, or to fly period, or that the law
> would ever consider all races and genders equal.
And it still doesn't. But that's a tangent...
> Given that, is it all that wrong to have a few 'delusional' people out
> there? There's billions of us on the planet, after all, most of us
> quietly doing our duties and keeping the world running. If the delusions
> aren't dangerous, then I say let them exist. At worst, they're giving
> some unfocused dreamers a goal in life. At best, they could change the
> world.
Dreams which are possible should be pursued. Many are not; at worst,
those who follow them will hurt others in the process, and at best,
quietly accomplish nothing.
>
> That, to bring things around in something of a roundabout way, is
> something that Sailor Moon's all about. She doesn't want anyone to have
> to suffer or be alone. She wants to save everyone in the world and let
> them fulfill their dreams. The Outer Senshi, a bit more experienced in
> the ways of the world and a bit more hardened, see it as a delusion --
> they know that in the real world, sacrifices are necessary, compromises
> are inevitable, you can't always get what you want, and sometimes you fail
> despite your best intentions.
Unfortunately, the series just had to go and make them "wrong".. thereby
inspiring hordes of fans to follow a lie. (Not to mention telling the
rest of us to also follow that lie, whenever we try to tell them that
they're believing something insane.) If SM and Co. had just lost that
battle and the Earth had been Silenced, which by all rights is what
SHOULD have happened, all of those people would have to shut up pretty quick.
> But Usagi still believes in her dream, and
> in her best moments, sets out to make it come true with all her love,
> will, determination, and power. She doesn't always succeed, and sometimes
> she indeed falls short of her ideals in more than one way, but she still
> doesn't stop believing in her dream. And in the end? Well, we've seen
> Crystal Tokyo. Maybe, one day, she succeeds...
>
> Fiction, of course. But isn't that what this group is about?
In one sense, yes.. but I was never aware that WE were supposed to
become fictional in the process. Fantasy is NOT reality and I would like
some people to get that through their airy heads.
--
Xplo Eristotle
http://start.at/xplosion/
"Error has no rights." - Tomas de Torquemada
Scott Johnson
> Andy Hock wrote:
>>
>> In the children's' book "The Phantom Tollbooth", Milo (the protagonist)
>> is sent on a quest. After he succeeds, those around him reveal one
>> important fact about his quest -- it was impossible. If they had told
>> him this before he went questing, he probably would never have gone,
>> and surely would have failed if he did. The lesson here (or "what we
>> can learn" if you prefer, Xplo) is that dreams are only impossible if
>> we believe they are.
> Unfortunately, this is a load of crap. Some things are, simply put, not
> possible.. and they will NEVER be possible, no matter how many people
> write fantastic stories to the contrary. If you believe otherwise, then
> you are sadly delusional. *DELUSIONAL*. That's all there is to it.
There are things that are absolutely impossible, true. There are things
that will never happen no matter how hard people try to make them so. The
thing of it is, we're humans. We have a less-than-perfect track record at
guessing exactly what those things are. In prior eras, people would have
said you were delusional if you expected man to ever walk on the moon, or
to fly in something heavier than air, or to fly period, or that the law
would ever consider all races and genders equal. And, on the other hand,
some things at times thought possible continue to elude us, and may or may
not ever happen, such as artificial intelligence, faster-than-light space
travel, full freedom from prejudice, or world peace. Are some of those
impossible, or all of them? It's entirely possible. But if they *are*
possible, and we don't try to achieve them, we'll never know what we've
missed. Indeed, even if we fail, there still may be good side-effects
from trying, such as new principles of the universe discovered in trying
to break the light barrier and new technologies arising from them, or a
significant decrease in the amount of war in the world even if we never
attain total peace.
Given that, is it all that wrong to have a few 'delusional' people out
there? There's billions of us on the planet, after all, most of us
quietly doing our duties and keeping the world running. If the delusions
aren't dangerous, then I say let them exist. At worst, they're giving
some unfocused dreamers a goal in life. At best, they could change the
world.
That, to bring things around in something of a roundabout way, is
something that Sailor Moon's all about. She doesn't want anyone to have
to suffer or be alone. She wants to save everyone in the world and let
them fulfill their dreams. The Outer Senshi, a bit more experienced in
the ways of the world and a bit more hardened, see it as a delusion --
they know that in the real world, sacrifices are necessary, compromises
are inevitable, you can't always get what you want, and sometimes you fail
despite your best intentions. But Usagi still believes in her dream, and
in her best moments, sets out to make it come true with all her love,
will, determination, and power. She doesn't always succeed, and sometimes
she indeed falls short of her ideals in more than one way, but she still
doesn't stop believing in her dream. And in the end? Well, we've seen
Crystal Tokyo. Maybe, one day, she succeeds...
Fiction, of course. But isn't that what this group is about?
--
Scott Johnson |
za...@io.com | This space intentionally left blank.
Sailorstartitan
Well... There is a whole truth in that, generally speaking, and very well
written. But how does all *that* translate to dreaming for more dubbed
Sailormoon?
Listen, I can understand that some people are lazy and just want the S
season to appear on television in English so they don't have to do anything
out of their way to enjoy more of a good show.
However... I still stand by the fact that some things require you to bust a
move. DiC brought us the Classic and R seasons... although terribly and
horribly... but they DID bring it to us. Those episodes were available on TV
for those who wished to see it.
Consider these the small apples on the lowest branches that are easy to
pick.
Now, for those people, the S season remains, as do SuperS and Stars.
Consider those the largest and juiciest apples at the very top of the
tree.
At the moment, you have three choices. Either wait for some big shot to
stroll by, climb up the tree, get the apple, chop it up while climbing down,
and giving you a majorly bruised, now possibly rotten apple.
~OR~
Climb up the tree yourself, despite the fact there are strict tree climbing
laws that no one really gives a damn about, get the apple yourself and climb
back down. You've got the apple the way is was supposed to be, nice and
juicy.
~OR~
Die waiting to someone to come along.
Okay, maybe this was a very silly comparison, but the remaining seasons of
Sailormoon are quite similar. Get fansubs, get translations, download from
SenshiTV. Sure, it would be NICE if it would magically appear on TV,
unchanged and uncut, but that's not going to happen and everyone knows that.
The S season might be dubbed someday by some company, maybe by DiC, maybe by
Pioneer, maybe by whoever. But for those who want to see it right away, the
options are clear as day. The *entire* S season has been subbed by VKLL,
that's 10 tapes. Request one or two at a time perhaps. Or, if you've got a
job, get the entire 10 right away and have a Uranus and Neptune marathon!
And the whole argument "fansubs are illegal" crap is really bugging me. You
know what? Copying songs from CDs to audio tapes to listen in the car or
give to friends is illegal. Drinking under 19 is illegal (well, at least in
Canada). Drugs are illegal. Not stopping at a stop sign is illegal. All
those Sailormoon ROMs, specifically the Another Story one, are illegal too.
But is THAT stopping anyone? No. And do people actually care? No! If they
did, millions of teenagers would be in prison right now.
What am I trying to say? If you want S now, get fansubs. If you want to wait
for it to be dubbed, then don't even DARE start complaining about changes if
it ever happens. Because we'll all be here to say: "WE TOLD YOU SO!" and
punt you away.
--
"A revolving star guarding the immortal Princess of Ruin and Rebirth,
weilding the Guardian Glaive; here I am: Sailorstartitan!"
Andy Hock
>
> Scott Johnson wrote:
> >
> > Xplo Eristotle <inqui...@unforgettable.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Andy Hock wrote:
> > >>
> > >> In the children's' book "The Phantom Tollbooth", Milo (the protagonist)
> > >> is sent on a quest. After he succeeds, those around him reveal one
> > >> important fact about his quest -- it was impossible. If they had told
> > >> him this before he went questing, he probably would never have gone,
> > >> and surely would have failed if he did. The lesson here (or "what we
> > >> can learn" if you prefer, Xplo) is that dreams are only impossible if
> > >> we believe they are.
> >
> > > Unfortunately, this is a load of crap. Some things are, simply put, not
> > > possible.. and they will NEVER be possible, no matter how many people
> > > write fantastic stories to the contrary. If you believe otherwise, then
> > > you are sadly delusional. *DELUSIONAL*. That's all there is to it.
> >
> > There are things that are absolutely impossible, true. There are things
> > that will never happen no matter how hard people try to make them so. The
> > thing of it is, we're humans. We have a less-than-perfect track record at
> > guessing exactly what those things are. In prior eras, people would have
> > said you were delusional if you expected man to ever walk on the moon, or
> > to fly in something heavier than air, or to fly period, or that the law
> > would ever consider all races and genders equal.
>
I believe it was Voltaire who said that it was impossible for the human
body to travel over 40 mph, because it would cause the heart to stop
and the lungs to collapse. And industrialists in the 1800s would have
said it was impossible to make a profit with a 40 hour work week for
employees. And they REALLY BELIEVED these things.
> > Given that, is it all that wrong to have a few 'delusional' people out
> > there? There's billions of us on the planet, after all, most of us
> > quietly doing our duties and keeping the world running. If the delusions
> > aren't dangerous, then I say let them exist. At worst, they're giving
> > some unfocused dreamers a goal in life. At best, they could change the
> > world.
>
> Dreams which are possible should be pursued. Many are not; at worst,
> those who follow them will hurt others in the process, and at best,
> quietly accomplish nothing.
I'd encourage you to check out the story (true story) of Emperor
Norton of the USA. Yes, there was an emperor of the US. He lived
in San Francisco. Yes, he was delusional, but he brought joy to
a great many people (as well as himself) through his delusion.
> > That, to bring things around in something of a roundabout way, is
> > something that Sailor Moon's all about. She doesn't want anyone to have
> > to suffer or be alone. She wants to save everyone in the world and let
> > them fulfill their dreams. The Outer Senshi, a bit more experienced in
> > the ways of the world and a bit more hardened, see it as a delusion --
> > they know that in the real world, sacrifices are necessary, compromises
> > are inevitable, you can't always get what you want, and sometimes you fail
> > despite your best intentions.
>
> Unfortunately, the series just had to go and make them "wrong".. thereby
> inspiring hordes of fans to follow a lie. (Not to mention telling the
> rest of us to also follow that lie, whenever we try to tell them that
> they're believing something insane.) If SM and Co. had just lost that
> battle and the Earth had been Silenced, which by all rights is what
> SHOULD have happened, all of those people would have to shut up pretty quick.
Not a lie . . . just a different paradigm than you believe in.
Paradigms
are only belief systems. They have no actual substance.
But the paradigm of the win-win situation is becoming more and more
prevalent in management theory all the time. It's not a lie by a
long shot. In fact, your paradigm and that of the Outers that sacrifice
is necessary is rapidly becoming outmoded. Look at books like "The
Fifth Discipline" by Peter Senge or "On Creativity" by David Bohm
(the physicist) or "Synchronicity" by Joseph Jaworski.
> > But Usagi still believes in her dream, and
> > in her best moments, sets out to make it come true with all her love,
> > will, determination, and power. She doesn't always succeed, and sometimes
> > she indeed falls short of her ideals in more than one way, but she still
> > doesn't stop believing in her dream. And in the end? Well, we've seen
> > Crystal Tokyo. Maybe, one day, she succeeds...
> >
> > Fiction, of course. But isn't that what this group is about?
>
> In one sense, yes.. but I was never aware that WE were supposed to
> become fictional in the process. Fantasy is NOT reality and I would like
> some people to get that through their airy heads.
It is not fantasy that we have been discussing but philosophy -- the
philosophy of Sailor Moon. Some of our personal philosophies just
seem to be more similar to Sailor Moon's than others'.
> "Error has no rights." - Tomas de Torquemada
"Faith manages." - J. Michael Straczynski
Andy Hock
Xplo Eristotle
Andy Hock wrote:
>
> Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> >
> > Scott Johnson wrote:
> > >
> > > Given that, is it all that wrong to have a few 'delusional' people out
> > > there? There's billions of us on the planet, after all, most of us
> > > quietly doing our duties and keeping the world running. If the delusions
> > > aren't dangerous, then I say let them exist. At worst, they're giving
> > > some unfocused dreamers a goal in life. At best, they could change the
> > > world.
> >
> > Dreams which are possible should be pursued. Many are not; at worst,
> > those who follow them will hurt others in the process, and at best,
> > quietly accomplish nothing.
>
> I'd encourage you to check out the story (true story) of Emperor
> Norton of the USA. Yes, there was an emperor of the US. He lived
> in San Francisco. Yes, he was delusional, but he brought joy to
> a great many people (as well as himself) through his delusion.
I'm more or less familiar with Emperor Joshua Norton, yes. I think he
makes a poor example, though; I don't see the similarity between Norton
and dubbies.
> > > That, to bring things around in something of a roundabout way, is
> > > something that Sailor Moon's all about. She doesn't want anyone to have
> > > to suffer or be alone. She wants to save everyone in the world and let
> > > them fulfill their dreams. The Outer Senshi, a bit more experienced in
> > > the ways of the world and a bit more hardened, see it as a delusion --
> > > they know that in the real world, sacrifices are necessary, compromises
> > > are inevitable, you can't always get what you want, and sometimes you fail
> > > despite your best intentions.
> >
> > Unfortunately, the series just had to go and make them "wrong".. thereby
> > inspiring hordes of fans to follow a lie. (Not to mention telling the
> > rest of us to also follow that lie, whenever we try to tell them that
> > they're believing something insane.) If SM and Co. had just lost that
> > battle and the Earth had been Silenced, which by all rights is what
> > SHOULD have happened, all of those people would have to shut up pretty quick.
>
> Not a lie . . . just a different paradigm than you believe in.
You believe this? You're cracked, Andy.
Anyone with half a brain who watches SMS can see that no matter whether
what SM does works or not, it was clearly the stupidest possible thing
to do, and that she could have no way of knowing whether or not it would
do her any good. There can be no defense of her actions.
This is what I mean by an inability to distinguish fantasy and reality;
you're insisting that a fantasy has validity in real life. I could just
as easily write a story where SM succeeds by killing everyone (Hotaru,
the Outers, Rei - she's got that nasty look in her eye, y'know - the
MOTDs, people standing near the MOTDs, Prof. Tomoe, Tomoe's class, et
al.) and claim that because it worked in the story, the best way to deal
with anything is to eradicate it. Or I could write one where none of the
Senshi do anything about the invaders, and they eventually get
discouraged by the lack of opposition and leave Earth, and that this
story proves that no one should attempt to do anything about their
problems. And it would be just as valid as your argument.. because, in
fact, it *IS* your argument.
> But the paradigm of the win-win situation is becoming more and more
> prevalent in management theory all the time. It's not a lie by a
> long shot. In fact, your paradigm and that of the Outers that sacrifice
> is necessary is rapidly becoming outmoded. Look at books like "The
> Fifth Discipline" by Peter Senge or "On Creativity" by David Bohm
> (the physicist) or "Synchronicity" by Joseph Jaworski.
Books, schmooks. No matter what relevance you think these books have to
SMS, what Usagi did was DUMB. It was indefensibly, blindly, suicidally
stupid, and the events that resulted were not merely improbable but in
fact thoroughly unrealistic.
> > > But Usagi still believes in her dream, and
> > > in her best moments, sets out to make it come true with all her love,
> > > will, determination, and power. She doesn't always succeed, and sometimes
> > > she indeed falls short of her ideals in more than one way, but she still
> > > doesn't stop believing in her dream. And in the end? Well, we've seen
> > > Crystal Tokyo. Maybe, one day, she succeeds...
> > >
> > > Fiction, of course. But isn't that what this group is about?
> >
> > In one sense, yes.. but I was never aware that WE were supposed to
> > become fictional in the process. Fantasy is NOT reality and I would like
> > some people to get that through their airy heads.
>
> It is not fantasy that we have been discussing but philosophy -- the
> philosophy of Sailor Moon. Some of our personal philosophies just
> seem to be more similar to Sailor Moon's than others'.
Some of our philosophies have validity in the real world. Yours does not.
--
Xplo Eristotle
http://start.at/xplosion/
"Error has no rights." - Tomas de Torquemada
Alex Taylor
>Anyone with half a brain who watches SMS can see that no matter whether
>what SM does works or not, it was clearly the stupidest possible thing
>to do, and that she could have no way of knowing whether or not it would
>do her any good. There can be no defense of her actions.
>SMS, what Usagi did was DUMB. It was indefensibly, blindly, suicidally
>stupid, and the events that resulted were not merely improbable but in
>fact thoroughly unrealistic.
Hey, are you discussing dubbie agenda, or S philosophy? I might actually
feel like joining the latter.
I consider myself to have more than half a brain (of course, almost nobody
_thinks_ they're a half-wit...) -- and I certainly don't think Usagi's
actions at the end of S were stupid or wrong. I suspect I would have made
the same choice in her place...
>> It is not fantasy that we have been discussing but philosophy -- the
>> philosophy of Sailor Moon. Some of our personal philosophies just
>> seem to be more similar to Sailor Moon's than others'.
>
>Some of our philosophies have validity in the real world. Yours does not.
Cynical, aren't we? Can't you believe that some people have more
idealistic vision, and that they are not necessarily wrong for it?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Taylor BA - CIS - University of Guelph
al...@eddie.cis.uoguelph.ca http://eddie.cis.uoguelph.ca/~alex
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Xplo Eristotle
Alex Taylor wrote:
>
> I consider myself to have more than half a brain (of course, almost nobody
> _thinks_ they're a half-wit...) -- and I certainly don't think Usagi's
> actions at the end of S were stupid or wrong.
They were. What's more, the way the ending played out was absurd.
> I suspect I would have made
> the same choice in her place...
And if you fail?
Congratulations.. you just killed six billion people. But as long as you
don't have to kill them with your own hand, it's okay, isn't it?
> >Some of our philosophies have validity in the real world. Yours does not.
>
> Cynical, aren't we? Can't you believe that some people have more
> idealistic vision...
Yes.
> ...and that they are not necessarily wrong for it?
No.
Jerry Shaw
>And the whole argument "fansubs are illegal" crap is really bugging me.
Any copying and distribution of videos without the written permission of the
copyright holder is illegal. Look at the copyright statements on the original
Japanese videos you have in your possession. There is a copyright statement on
all the Sailor Moon Japanese LDs I have.
Changing the videos by overlaying text on them does not make the copying any
less illegal. Copyright law gives all rights, including the right to produce a
derived work or translation, to the copyright holder.
>Copying songs from CDs to audio tapes to listen in the car or
>give to friends is illegal.
Copying from CDs that you personally own for your own personal use is legal.
This has been tested in courts. Copying from your CDs for use by another
person who does not own the CDs is illegal.
> Drinking under 19 is illegal (well, at least in
>Canada). Drugs are illegal. Not stopping at a stop sign is illegal.
Yes, yes and yes. If you did any of those things in the presence of an
officer, you would find out they are all illegal.
> All
>those Sailormoon ROMs, specifically the Another Story one, are illegal too.
Yes, they are illegal, as well. Someone made an illegal copy of the contents
of the ROM cartridge, and started distributing it on the Internet (and
elsewhere, I presume).
I don't think the ROM emulator software is illegal unless it directly copied
code from the original video game system to use in the software. It is now
legal to disassemble the code to see how it works in order to make their own
software version (though a "clean room" environment is still preferable, to
prevent copyright infringement claims).
>But is THAT stopping anyone? No. And do people actually care? No! If they
>did, millions of teenagers would be in prison right now.
Actually, a lot of people care, so they only buy the original product
supporting the original copyright holders. You never hear about them, though.
If you mean the copyright holder either doesn't know about the illegal ROMs
being distributed or, for whatever reason, doesn't want to get into an
international copyright court case, you are right.
However, the copyright holder has every legal right to sue everyone who has
copies of their ROM cartridges posted on their site and everyone who has an
illegal copy of the ROM. They usually don't go to the trouble, since they have
already made back their investment via the legal sales of their products.
Don't confuse what is illegal with what is enforced. If a company doesn't
enforce their copyrights for whatever reason, that doesn't mean it is any less
illegal to copy their product.
Don't confuse what is commonly done with what is legal. People commonly make
copies of rental tapes. That doesn't make it any illegal. It only makes it
difficult to prosecute.
Don't confuse morals and ethics with legalities. Most fans think it is ethical
to buy copies of videos or fansubs. But this doesn't change the fact that it
is illegal.
> Sailorstartitan!"
There appears to be a dual standard among most fans about copyright
violations. Many people who download ROM copies, ripped copies of songs from
CDs, downloaded videos, or video fan subs or copies will be the first ones to
complain if you mention that you own a Son May copy of a Japanese CD. All are
illegal copies.
Jerry
Sailorstartitan
>
> There appears to be a dual standard among most fans about copyright
> violations. Many people who download ROM copies, ripped copies of songs
from
> CDs, downloaded videos, or video fan subs or copies will be the first ones
to
> complain if you mention that you own a Son May copy of a Japanese CD. All
are
> illegal copies.
>
> Jerry
Exactly my point. I agree with you on all of that, what I'm stating is
basically in harmony with your last statement. These people who won't get
fansubs because they're illegal are probably the same people who copy their
CDs on tapes for their friends. *That*'s what pissing me off.
Andy Hock
>
> Andy Hock wrote:
> >
> > Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> > >
> > > Scott Johnson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Given that, is it all that wrong to have a few 'delusional' people out
> > > > there? There's billions of us on the planet, after all, most of us
> > > > quietly doing our duties and keeping the world running. If the delusions
> > > > aren't dangerous, then I say let them exist. At worst, they're giving
> > > > some unfocused dreamers a goal in life. At best, they could change the
> > > > world.
> > >
> > > Dreams which are possible should be pursued. Many are not; at worst,
> > > those who follow them will hurt others in the process, and at best,
> > > quietly accomplish nothing.
> >
> > I'd encourage you to check out the story (true story) of Emperor
> > Norton of the USA. Yes, there was an emperor of the US. He lived
> > in San Francisco. Yes, he was delusional, but he brought joy to
> > a great many people (as well as himself) through his delusion.
>
> I'm more or less familiar with Emperor Joshua Norton, yes. I think he
> makes a poor example, though; I don't see the similarity between Norton
> and dubbies.
Well . . . at worst, they're both delusional, but they harm no one.
Dubbing SMS wouldn't harm those of us who don't want to watch it,
but it would make "dubbies" happy. Why do you want to stand in the
way of others' happiness when it won't cost you a thing?
> > > > That, to bring things around in something of a roundabout way, is
> > > > something that Sailor Moon's all about. She doesn't want anyone to have
> > > > to suffer or be alone. She wants to save everyone in the world and let
> > > > them fulfill their dreams. The Outer Senshi, a bit more experienced in
> > > > the ways of the world and a bit more hardened, see it as a delusion --
> > > > they know that in the real world, sacrifices are necessary, compromises
> > > > are inevitable, you can't always get what you want, and sometimes you fail
> > > > despite your best intentions.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, the series just had to go and make them "wrong".. thereby
> > > inspiring hordes of fans to follow a lie. (Not to mention telling the
> > > rest of us to also follow that lie, whenever we try to tell them that
> > > they're believing something insane.) If SM and Co. had just lost that
> > > battle and the Earth had been Silenced, which by all rights is what
> > > SHOULD have happened, all of those people would have to shut up pretty quick.
> >
> > Not a lie . . . just a different paradigm than you believe in.
>
> You believe this? You're cracked, Andy.
You aren't the first person who said this about me. ^_-
> Anyone with half a brain who watches SMS can see that no matter whether
> what SM does works or not, it was clearly the stupidest possible thing
> to do, and that she could have no way of knowing whether or not it would
> do her any good. There can be no defense of her actions.
Except the best defense of all -- it worked!
> This is what I mean by an inability to distinguish fantasy and reality;
> you're insisting that a fantasy has validity in real life. I could just
> as easily write a story where SM succeeds by killing everyone (Hotaru,
> the Outers, Rei - she's got that nasty look in her eye, y'know - the
> MOTDs, people standing near the MOTDs, Prof. Tomoe, Tomoe's class, et
> al.) and claim that because it worked in the story, the best way to deal
> with anything is to eradicate it. Or I could write one where none of the
> Senshi do anything about the invaders, and they eventually get
> discouraged by the lack of opposition and leave Earth, and that this
> story proves that no one should attempt to do anything about their
> problems. And it would be just as valid as your argument.. because, in
> fact, it *IS* your argument.
It would be just as valid, but it wouldn't capture MY imagination
because I don't believe that way.
> > But the paradigm of the win-win situation is becoming more and more
> > prevalent in management theory all the time. It's not a lie by a
> > long shot. In fact, your paradigm and that of the Outers that sacrifice
> > is necessary is rapidly becoming outmoded. Look at books like "The
> > Fifth Discipline" by Peter Senge or "On Creativity" by David Bohm
> > (the physicist) or "Synchronicity" by Joseph Jaworski.
>
> Books, schmooks. No matter what relevance you think these books have to
> SMS, what Usagi did was DUMB. It was indefensibly, blindly, suicidally
> stupid, and the events that resulted were not merely improbable but in
> fact thoroughly unrealistic.
On a smaller scale, this methodology has worked for me. It has
also worked for the authors of those books I mentioned.
> > > > But Usagi still believes in her dream, and
> > > > in her best moments, sets out to make it come true with all her love,
> > > > will, determination, and power. She doesn't always succeed, and sometimes
> > > > she indeed falls short of her ideals in more than one way, but she still
> > > > doesn't stop believing in her dream. And in the end? Well, we've seen
> > > > Crystal Tokyo. Maybe, one day, she succeeds...
> > > >
> > > > Fiction, of course. But isn't that what this group is about?
> > >
> > > In one sense, yes.. but I was never aware that WE were supposed to
> > > become fictional in the process. Fantasy is NOT reality and I would like
> > > some people to get that through their airy heads.
> >
> > It is not fantasy that we have been discussing but philosophy -- the
> > philosophy of Sailor Moon. Some of our personal philosophies just
> > seem to be more similar to Sailor Moon's than others'.
>
> Some of our philosophies have validity in the real world. Yours does not.
I beg to differ.
> "Error has no rights." - Tomas de Torquemada
"Faith manages." - J. Michael Straczynski
Andy Hock
Xplo Eristotle
Andy Hock wrote:
>
> Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> >
> > I'm more or less familiar with Emperor Joshua Norton, yes. I think he
> > makes a poor example, though; I don't see the similarity between Norton
> > and dubbies.
>
> Well . . . at worst, they're both delusional, but they harm no one.
> Dubbing SMS wouldn't harm those of us who don't want to watch it,
> but it would make "dubbies" happy. Why do you want to stand in the
> way of others' happiness when it won't cost you a thing?
I find the dub repugnant. Furthermore, I find dub fans repugnant.
Therefore, anything that stirs up the dubbies is a personal affront. The
situation you propose is one in which I need never suffer their
presence; if you make this the literal truth (say, by putting them all
on an island somewhere with no outside communications) then I'll have no
complaint, but you can't do it, and wouldn't anyway.
> > Anyone with half a brain who watches SMS can see that no matter whether
> > what SM does works or not, it was clearly the stupidest possible thing
> > to do, and that she could have no way of knowing whether or not it would
> > do her any good. There can be no defense of her actions.
>
> Except the best defense of all -- it worked!
This is no defense at all. Ends and means, ring a bell? You don't throw
away a sure chance to save the world by killing one person in order to
risk killing billions!
Ladies and gentlemen, I present Andy Hock, irresponsible gambler and
soulless mass murderer.
> > This is what I mean by an inability to distinguish fantasy and reality;
> > you're insisting that a fantasy has validity in real life. I could just
> > as easily write a story where SM succeeds by killing everyone (Hotaru,
> > the Outers, Rei - she's got that nasty look in her eye, y'know - the
> > MOTDs, people standing near the MOTDs, Prof. Tomoe, Tomoe's class, et
> > al.) and claim that because it worked in the story, the best way to deal
> > with anything is to eradicate it. Or I could write one where none of the
> > Senshi do anything about the invaders, and they eventually get
> > discouraged by the lack of opposition and leave Earth, and that this
> > story proves that no one should attempt to do anything about their
> > problems. And it would be just as valid as your argument.. because, in
> > fact, it *IS* your argument.
>
> It would be just as valid...
...which is to say, not at all. Thank you for confirming my point.
> > > But the paradigm of the win-win situation is becoming more and more
> > > prevalent in management theory all the time. It's not a lie by a
> > > long shot. In fact, your paradigm and that of the Outers that sacrifice
> > > is necessary is rapidly becoming outmoded. Look at books like "The
> > > Fifth Discipline" by Peter Senge or "On Creativity" by David Bohm
> > > (the physicist) or "Synchronicity" by Joseph Jaworski.
> >
> > Books, schmooks. No matter what relevance you think these books have to
> > SMS, what Usagi did was DUMB. It was indefensibly, blindly, suicidally
> > stupid, and the events that resulted were not merely improbable but in
> > fact thoroughly unrealistic.
>
> On a smaller scale, this methodology has worked for me. It has
> also worked for the authors of those books I mentioned.
Then you're drawing an inaccurate comparison. Usagi's situation was
lose/lose, not win/win. The unrealism I'm talking about stems from her
winning a lose/lose situation - which is clearly not possible (if it
was, it wouldn't be lose/lose).
> > > It is not fantasy that we have been discussing but philosophy -- the
> > > philosophy of Sailor Moon. Some of our personal philosophies just
> > > seem to be more similar to Sailor Moon's than others'.
> >
> > Some of our philosophies have validity in the real world. Yours does not.
>
> I beg to differ.
Yeah, well, anyone who would promote such a diseased philosophy would
surely defend it. Still doesn't make it (or you) right, though.
> "Faith manages." - J. Michael Straczynski
And you, I sincerely hope, do not. Gods know there's enough clueless,
incompetent managers out there as it is.
--
Xplo Eristotle
http://start.at/xplosion/
"Error has no rights." - Tomas de Torquemada
Andy Hock
>
> Andy Hock wrote:
> >
> > Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm more or less familiar with Emperor Joshua Norton, yes. I think he
> > > makes a poor example, though; I don't see the similarity between Norton
> > > and dubbies.
> >
> > Well . . . at worst, they're both delusional, but they harm no one.
> > Dubbing SMS wouldn't harm those of us who don't want to watch it,
> > but it would make "dubbies" happy. Why do you want to stand in the
> > way of others' happiness when it won't cost you a thing?
>
That's your right. Personally, I don't like it much, either.
> Furthermore, I find dub fans repugnant.
That's your right as well. Are you aware that this is an example
of prejudice, however? It's really no different than finding blacks
or Jews repugnant. I've always thought it more reasonable to
judge people as individuals, rather than letting one characteristic
(race, religion, or view on the dub) determine my judgment of them.
> Therefore, anything that stirs up the dubbies is a personal affront. The
> situation you propose is one in which I need never suffer their
> presence; if you make this the literal truth (say, by putting them all
> on an island somewhere with no outside communications) then I'll have no
> complaint, but you can't do it, and wouldn't anyway.
So then it's not the "dubbies" being happy that you object to. It
seems that you don't want to SEE them happy or have them tell you
they're happy.
> > > Anyone with half a brain who watches SMS can see that no matter whether
> > > what SM does works or not, it was clearly the stupidest possible thing
> > > to do, and that she could have no way of knowing whether or not it would
> > > do her any good. There can be no defense of her actions.
> >
> > Except the best defense of all -- it worked!
>
> This is no defense at all. Ends and means, ring a bell? You don't throw
> away a sure chance to save the world by killing one person in order to
> risk killing billions!
Not end and means at all. In end and means, someone gets hurt to
benefit another. Here no one got hurt. Yes, there was risk, but a
chance of greater success is usually accompanied by the risk of
greater failure.
> > > This is what I mean by an inability to distinguish fantasy and reality;
> > > you're insisting that a fantasy has validity in real life. I could just
> > > as easily write a story where SM succeeds by killing everyone (Hotaru,
> > > the Outers, Rei - she's got that nasty look in her eye, y'know - the
> > > MOTDs, people standing near the MOTDs, Prof. Tomoe, Tomoe's class, et
> > > al.) and claim that because it worked in the story, the best way to deal
> > > with anything is to eradicate it. Or I could write one where none of the
> > > Senshi do anything about the invaders, and they eventually get
> > > discouraged by the lack of opposition and leave Earth, and that this
> > > story proves that no one should attempt to do anything about their
> > > problems. And it would be just as valid as your argument.. because, in
> > > fact, it *IS* your argument.
> >
> > It would be just as valid...
>
> ...which is to say, not at all. Thank you for confirming my point.
No. As a potential storyline, they are all valid. I might add,
however,
that storylines such as yours would probably not have made SM a success.
Certainly not as shoujo anime.
> > > > But the paradigm of the win-win situation is becoming more and more
> > > > prevalent in management theory all the time. It's not a lie by a
> > > > long shot. In fact, your paradigm and that of the Outers that sacrifice
> > > > is necessary is rapidly becoming outmoded. Look at books like "The
> > > > Fifth Discipline" by Peter Senge or "On Creativity" by David Bohm
> > > > (the physicist) or "Synchronicity" by Joseph Jaworski.
> > >
> > > Books, schmooks. No matter what relevance you think these books have to
> > > SMS, what Usagi did was DUMB. It was indefensibly, blindly, suicidally
> > > stupid, and the events that resulted were not merely improbable but in
> > > fact thoroughly unrealistic.
> >
> > On a smaller scale, this methodology has worked for me. It has
> > also worked for the authors of those books I mentioned.
>
> Then you're drawing an inaccurate comparison. Usagi's situation was
> lose/lose, not win/win. The unrealism I'm talking about stems from her
> winning a lose/lose situation - which is clearly not possible (if it
> was, it wouldn't be lose/lose).
Usagi's situation was win/win. She survived. Haruka and Michiru
survived. Hotaru survived. The world was saved. The season was
successful and loved by fans. Everybody won.
> > > > It is not fantasy that we have been discussing but philosophy -- the
> > > > philosophy of Sailor Moon. Some of our personal philosophies just
> > > > seem to be more similar to Sailor Moon's than others'.
> > >
> > > Some of our philosophies have validity in the real world. Yours does not.
> >
> > I beg to differ.
>
> Yeah, well, anyone who would promote such a diseased philosophy would
> surely defend it. Still doesn't make it (or you) right, though.
No, I'm not "right". If I was, then someone who believed differently
would have to be "wrong" -- and I'm not trying to make your beliefs
"wrong". I just like to enjoy our diversity of paradigms!
> > "Faith manages." - J. Michael Straczynski
>
> And you, I sincerely hope, do not. Gods know there's enough clueless,
> incompetent managers out there as it is.
No, I've never managed much. Just a part of the planning and
execution of our strategic nuclear defense capability. Very
successfully, I might add. But I didn't find military life to
my liking. Right now I manage an auctioneer's office, as well
as several programs at my Church. I'm giving the Sunday message
tomorrow. Do you want to come and listen? It's all about
paradigms. I'm serious! This discussion has been a part of
my process of writing the Sunday message for my Church. So
now you can put "assisted in writing sermons" on your resume'.
I'll sign this one the way I sign letters and e-mails that
I write for my Church . . .
Faith manages,
Andy Hock
Robert Hutchinson
>
> Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> >
> > Andy Hock wrote:
> > >
> > > Xplo Eristotle wrote:
<snip>
> > Furthermore, I find dub fans repugnant.
>
> That's your right as well. Are you aware that this is an example
> of prejudice, however? It's really no different than finding blacks
> or Jews repugnant. I've always thought it more reasonable to
> judge people as individuals, rather than letting one characteristic
> (race, religion, or view on the dub) determine my judgment of them.
One is unable to choose their race: bad comparison.
I'm prejudiced against people who wear different types of plaid in the
same outfit. Where are we going to draw the line for this?
> > Therefore, anything that stirs up the dubbies is a personal affront. The
> > situation you propose is one in which I need never suffer their
> > presence; if you make this the literal truth (say, by putting them all
> > on an island somewhere with no outside communications) then I'll have no
> > complaint, but you can't do it, and wouldn't anyway.
>
> So then it's not the "dubbies" being happy that you object to. It
> seems that you don't want to SEE them happy or have them tell you
> they're happy.
When did "stirs up" equate with "makes happy?" Xplo would probably jump
for joy if people entered the newsgroup saying "I like the dub, but what
I'd really love is to see the original." Instead, he (and we) get "d00d
zosyte is u womann. i wnat more SM evn if They Haft ruin it" This track
record of years of material doesn't speak well for the USENET result of
more dubbing.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: artistic integrity. The dub is
an insult to the quality material used as part of its source. Further dubbing
would be further insult.
> > > > Anyone with half a brain who watches SMS can see that no matter whether
> > > > what SM does works or not, it was clearly the stupidest possible thing
> > > > to do, and that she could have no way of knowing whether or not it would
> > > > do her any good. There can be no defense of her actions.
> > >
> > > Except the best defense of all -- it worked!
> >
> > This is no defense at all. Ends and means, ring a bell? You don't throw
> > away a sure chance to save the world by killing one person in order to
> > risk killing billions!
>
> Not end and means at all. In end and means, someone gets hurt to
> benefit another. Here no one got hurt. Yes, there was risk, but a
> chance of greater success is usually accompanied by the risk of
> greater failure.
If I jump off a cliff, I might sprout wings and fly ... but I should
probably just not jump off the cliff, ne? His point is that six billion
people *should've* been hurt.
> > > > This is what I mean by an inability to distinguish fantasy and reality;
> > > > you're insisting that a fantasy has validity in real life. I could just
> > > > as easily write a story where SM succeeds by killing everyone (Hotaru,
> > > > the Outers, Rei - she's got that nasty look in her eye, y'know - the
> > > > MOTDs, people standing near the MOTDs, Prof. Tomoe, Tomoe's class, et
> > > > al.) and claim that because it worked in the story, the best way to deal
> > > > with anything is to eradicate it. Or I could write one where none of the
> > > > Senshi do anything about the invaders, and they eventually get
> > > > discouraged by the lack of opposition and leave Earth, and that this
> > > > story proves that no one should attempt to do anything about their
> > > > problems. And it would be just as valid as your argument.. because, in
> > > > fact, it *IS* your argument.
> > >
> > > It would be just as valid...
> >
> > ...which is to say, not at all. Thank you for confirming my point.
>
> No. As a potential storyline, they are all valid.
By what judgment? What criteria? Certainly not valid as a reasonable or
realistic storyline ...
> I might add, however,
> that storylines such as yours would probably not have made SM a success.
> Certainly not as shoujo anime.
The success of the anime has about nil to do with the point being made.
> > > > > But the paradigm of the win-win situation is becoming more and more
> > > > > prevalent in management theory all the time. It's not a lie by a
> > > > > long shot. In fact, your paradigm and that of the Outers that sacrifice
> > > > > is necessary is rapidly becoming outmoded. Look at books like "The
> > > > > Fifth Discipline" by Peter Senge or "On Creativity" by David Bohm
> > > > > (the physicist) or "Synchronicity" by Joseph Jaworski.
> > > >
> > > > Books, schmooks. No matter what relevance you think these books have to
> > > > SMS, what Usagi did was DUMB. It was indefensibly, blindly, suicidally
> > > > stupid, and the events that resulted were not merely improbable but in
> > > > fact thoroughly unrealistic.
> > >
> > > On a smaller scale, this methodology has worked for me. It has
> > > also worked for the authors of those books I mentioned.
> >
> > Then you're drawing an inaccurate comparison. Usagi's situation was
> > lose/lose, not win/win. The unrealism I'm talking about stems from her
> > winning a lose/lose situation - which is clearly not possible (if it
> > was, it wouldn't be lose/lose).
>
> Usagi's situation was win/win. She survived. Haruka and Michiru
> survived. Hotaru survived. The world was saved. The season was
> successful and loved by fans. Everybody won.
-_-
"Jim is cornered by Tim. Tim holds a loaded gun to Jim's head. Jim says a
magic word and flips a coin. The gun suddenly disappears, and they all lived
happily ever after."
Are you incapable of separating the story from those who wrote it? Or just
unable to parse the phrase "shouldn't have been able to?"
Robert Hutchinson
Andy Hock
>
> Andy Hock wrote:
> >
> > Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> > >
> > > Andy Hock wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Xplo Eristotle wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > Furthermore, I find dub fans repugnant.
> >
> > That's your right as well. Are you aware that this is an example
> > of prejudice, however? It's really no different than finding blacks
> > or Jews repugnant. I've always thought it more reasonable to
> > judge people as individuals, rather than letting one characteristic
> > (race, religion, or view on the dub) determine my judgment of them.
>
> One is unable to choose their race: bad comparison.
>
> I'm prejudiced against people who wear different types of plaid in the
> same outfit. Where are we going to draw the line for this?
Wearing more than one kind of plaid in an outfit certainly makes
someone suspect. But are you willing to accept the possibility
that at least one such person is really neat and worthy of respect
despite their lack of fashion sense. Einstein wasn't exactly a
fashion plate, but most people respect him. There's a teenager
at my Church who wears a black trenchcoat. Many people don't
like him because of it. I've talked to him, and I think he's okay.
Maybe race was a bad example, but religion isn't. People choose
what religion they want to follow.
> > > Therefore, anything that stirs up the dubbies is a personal affront. The
> > > situation you propose is one in which I need never suffer their
> > > presence; if you make this the literal truth (say, by putting them all
> > > on an island somewhere with no outside communications) then I'll have no
> > > complaint, but you can't do it, and wouldn't anyway.
> >
> > So then it's not the "dubbies" being happy that you object to. It
> > seems that you don't want to SEE them happy or have them tell you
> > they're happy.
>
> When did "stirs up" equate with "makes happy?" Xplo would probably jump
> for joy if people entered the newsgroup saying "I like the dub, but what
> I'd really love is to see the original." Instead, he (and we) get "d00d
> zosyte is u womann. i wnat more SM evn if They Haft ruin it" This track
> record of years of material doesn't speak well for the USENET result of
> more dubbing.
>
> I've said it before, and I'll say it again: artistic integrity. The dub is
> an insult to the quality material used as part of its source. Further dubbing
> would be further insult.
Creamed spinach is an insult to the quality material used as part of
its source. IMO, spinach is really good steamed -- but really bad
creamed. But it's not a personal affront to me when someone tells
me how much they love creamed spinach.
However, I RESPECT YOUR RIGHT to hate the dub and be offended by it.
As I've said before, I don't think much of it, either. I'm certainly
not trying to defend DiC or the dub. I'm just trying to defend some
peoples' right to like it if they want to.
> > > > > Anyone with half a brain who watches SMS can see that no matter whether
> > > > > what SM does works or not, it was clearly the stupidest possible thing
> > > > > to do, and that she could have no way of knowing whether or not it would
> > > > > do her any good. There can be no defense of her actions.
> > > >
> > > > Except the best defense of all -- it worked!
> > >
> > > This is no defense at all. Ends and means, ring a bell? You don't throw
> > > away a sure chance to save the world by killing one person in order to
> > > risk killing billions!
> >
> > Not end and means at all. In end and means, someone gets hurt to
> > benefit another. Here no one got hurt. Yes, there was risk, but a
> > chance of greater success is usually accompanied by the risk of
> > greater failure.
>
> If I jump off a cliff, I might sprout wings and fly ... but I should
> probably just not jump off the cliff, ne? His point is that six billion
> people *should've* been hurt.
I don't know about "should've". Admittedly, in a real world situation
with real alien invaders from Tau Ceti, the odds of a real life Usagi
succeeding would be slim. But the odds of there being any real alien
invaders from Tau Ceti is pretty slim in the first place. This is
quite possibly a moot point.
> > > > > This is what I mean by an inability to distinguish fantasy and reality;
> > > > > you're insisting that a fantasy has validity in real life. I could just
> > > > > as easily write a story where SM succeeds by killing everyone (Hotaru,
> > > > > the Outers, Rei - she's got that nasty look in her eye, y'know - the
> > > > > MOTDs, people standing near the MOTDs, Prof. Tomoe, Tomoe's class, et
> > > > > al.) and claim that because it worked in the story, the best way to deal
> > > > > with anything is to eradicate it. Or I could write one where none of the
> > > > > Senshi do anything about the invaders, and they eventually get
> > > > > discouraged by the lack of opposition and leave Earth, and that this
> > > > > story proves that no one should attempt to do anything about their
> > > > > problems. And it would be just as valid as your argument.. because, in
> > > > > fact, it *IS* your argument.
> > > >
> > > > It would be just as valid...
> > >
> > > ...which is to say, not at all. Thank you for confirming my point.
> >
> > No. As a potential storyline, they are all valid.
>
> By what judgment? What criteria? Certainly not valid as a reasonable or
> realistic storyline ...
Where did "realistic" come in? I just said they're all valid
storylines, due to the nature of fiction.
> > I might add, however,
> > that storylines such as yours would probably not have made SM a success.
> > Certainly not as shoujo anime.
>
> The success of the anime has about nil to do with the point being made.
True. That's why I prefaced this point with "I might add". It's
a side comment. But it has everything to do with what is inside
peoples' hearts. Why would people NOT want to watch Usagi and Co
lose the battle??
I understand it quite well. I addressed it somewhat above. Further,
in Neuro-Linguistic Programming, we are taught to "red flag" all
absolute judgments (statements with "can't" or "shouldn't" or similar
words) and ask, "Why?" Even in such bizarre examples like growing
wings, all we can really say is that, so far as we know, no one has
done it yet. This leads us to certain conclusions due to inductive
reasoning. But these conclusions, as useful as they may be, remain
hypotheses until proven. And it's very hard to prove something can't
happen, and even harder to prove it shouldn't happen. On a practical
level, I guide my life by these inductive hypotheses. But on an
intellectual level, I remain aware that they're really just theories.
I certainly don't EXPECT to grow wings. That would be stupid. But
to say that I SHOULDN'T be able to grow wings is another story.
I'm really not delusional. I have friends and work and interests
just like anyone else. I am able to function quite well in society.
I'm not mentally ill, unless you count a bit of chronic depression.
Thus, I'm aware that Sailor Moon is not like real life. There are
no alien invaders or sailor fuku bishoujo senshi in my real life.
But I believe (IMHO) that Sailor Moon illustrates many valid
principles of philosophy. It does it on a grand (and often
unrealistic) scale, but that doesn't change the validity of the
principles.
Thus, I stand by the validity of the win/win situation, despite
the fact that it's not always the most effective way to deal with
alien invaders from Tau Ceti.
Andy Hock
Xplo Eristotle
Andy Hock wrote:
>
> Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> >
> > Furthermore, I find dub fans repugnant.
>
> That's your right as well. Are you aware that this is an example
> of prejudice, however? It's really no different than finding blacks
> or Jews repugnant.
Disliking dubbies is a personal preference, not a prejudice. I dislike
smokers, I dislike fundamentalist Christians (except, perhaps, as
entertainment), I dislike neoliberals, I dislike people who smell really
bad. I dislike dumb jocks. The dubbies might be very nice people. The
smokers might be very attractive (at the moment, anyway). The smelly
people might be very intelligent. None of this is relevant, because they
possess some attribute that makes me not want them around.
So, I'll congratulate you on that excellent job of thrashing a straw
dummy.. but you've failed to make a valid argument here. It would have
made things quicker if you'd just called me a Nazi and forfeited the
whole argument immediately.
> > > > Anyone with half a brain who watches SMS can see that no matter whether
> > > > what SM does works or not, it was clearly the stupidest possible thing
> > > > to do, and that she could have no way of knowing whether or not it would
> > > > do her any good. There can be no defense of her actions.
> > >
> > > Except the best defense of all -- it worked!
> >
> > This is no defense at all. Ends and means, ring a bell? You don't throw
> > away a sure chance to save the world by killing one person in order to
> > risk killing billions!
>
> Not end and means at all. In end and means, someone gets hurt to
> benefit another.
Not necessarily. In this case, you're sacrificing billions of people's
lives. Whether they end up living or dying is irrelevant; the point is
that you threw them away with no concern for their fate.
> > > > This is what I mean by an inability to distinguish fantasy and reality;
> > > > you're insisting that a fantasy has validity in real life. I could just
> > > > as easily write a story where SM succeeds by killing everyone (Hotaru,
> > > > the Outers, Rei - she's got that nasty look in her eye, y'know - the
> > > > MOTDs, people standing near the MOTDs, Prof. Tomoe, Tomoe's class, et
> > > > al.) and claim that because it worked in the story, the best way to deal
> > > > with anything is to eradicate it. Or I could write one where none of the
> > > > Senshi do anything about the invaders, and they eventually get
> > > > discouraged by the lack of opposition and leave Earth, and that this
> > > > story proves that no one should attempt to do anything about their
> > > > problems. And it would be just as valid as your argument.. because, in
> > > > fact, it *IS* your argument.
> > >
> > > It would be just as valid...
> >
> > ...which is to say, not at all. Thank you for confirming my point.
>
> No. As a potential storyline, they are all valid.
Thanks you for pointing that out, but whether or not these examples are
valid storylines are irrelevant to whether or not they are valid
philosophies. You said yourself that we're discussing philosophy, not
fantasy, so it's a bit rude for you to backpedal like this.
> > Then you're drawing an inaccurate comparison. Usagi's situation was
> > lose/lose, not win/win. The unrealism I'm talking about stems from her
> > winning a lose/lose situation - which is clearly not possible (if it
> > was, it wouldn't be lose/lose).
>
> Usagi's situation was win/win. She survived. Haruka and Michiru
> survived. Hotaru survived. The world was saved.
Her choices were these:
- Sacrifice Hotaru, save world (a "loss", in her eyes).
- Sacrifice world (clearly a loss).
"Save world and Hotaru" was never an existing option. Hotaru's escape
from Mistress 9, and the events that followed, were a deus ex machina..
more proof that Usagi's situation was lose/lose, since deus ex machina
invariably occurs when the heroes have NO chance of winning, and will
lose without "divine" intervention on their behalf.
> > > > > It is not fantasy that we have been discussing but philosophy -- the
> > > > > philosophy of Sailor Moon. Some of our personal philosophies just
> > > > > seem to be more similar to Sailor Moon's than others'.
> > > >
> > > > Some of our philosophies have validity in the real world. Yours does not.
> > >
> > > I beg to differ.
> >
> > Yeah, well, anyone who would promote such a diseased philosophy would
> > surely defend it. Still doesn't make it (or you) right, though.
>
> No, I'm not "right".
Again, thank you for giving me the point.
--
Xplo Eristotle
http://start.at/xplosion/
"Error has no rights." - Tomas de Torquemada
Robert Hutchinson
>
> Robert Hutchinson wrote..
>
> >[the old 'who was right during SMS debate']
> >If I jump off a cliff, I might sprout wings and fly ... but I should
> >probably just not jump off the cliff, ne? His point is that six billion
> >people *should've* been hurt.
> On this Earth, probably; i have yet to hear a good reason
> why we should apply the rules of mundane world to a 'magic
> girls' anime, though.
>
> Tolaris
> one would think trifles like vastly different physics,
> biology, social structure and talking cats would be enough
> of a hint...
One would also notice that good fiction, no matter how strange or
fantastic, carries with it strong and interesting messages, morals, and
whatnot. By this argument, "standard" fiction cannot be allowed any
outrageous plot twists ... but *all* science fiction can. I certainly
hope the flaw in this thinking is evident.
Robert Hutchinson
Robert Hutchinson
>
> Robert Hutchinson wrote:
> >
> > Andy Hock wrote:
> > >
> > > Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Andy Hock wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Xplo Eristotle wrote:
<big snip>
> > > > > > Anyone with half a brain who watches SMS can see that no matter whether
> > > > > > what SM does works or not, it was clearly the stupidest possible thing
> > > > > > to do, and that she could have no way of knowing whether or not it would
> > > > > > do her any good. There can be no defense of her actions.
> > > > >
> > > > > Except the best defense of all -- it worked!
> > > >
> > > > This is no defense at all. Ends and means, ring a bell? You don't throw
> > > > away a sure chance to save the world by killing one person in order to
> > > > risk killing billions!
> > >
> > > Not end and means at all. In end and means, someone gets hurt to
> > > benefit another. Here no one got hurt. Yes, there was risk, but a
> > > chance of greater success is usually accompanied by the risk of
> > > greater failure.
> >
> > If I jump off a cliff, I might sprout wings and fly ... but I should
> > probably just not jump off the cliff, ne? His point is that six billion
> > people *should've* been hurt.
>
> I don't know about "should've". Admittedly, in a real world situation
> with real alien invaders from Tau Ceti, the odds of a real life Usagi
> succeeding would be slim. But the odds of there being any real alien
> invaders from Tau Ceti is pretty slim in the first place. This is
> quite possibly a moot point.
So, you want us to suspend our disbelief (these really are real girls
facing the destruction of the world) up until d-day (small ds), then we're
supposed to switch our mindset to "it's just fantasy, don't worry about it?"
Sorry, I don't approach fiction as serious as BSSM in that fashion, and I
never will.
> > > > > > This is what I mean by an inability to distinguish fantasy and reality;
> > > > > > you're insisting that a fantasy has validity in real life. I could just
> > > > > > as easily write a story where SM succeeds by killing everyone (Hotaru,
> > > > > > the Outers, Rei - she's got that nasty look in her eye, y'know - the
> > > > > > MOTDs, people standing near the MOTDs, Prof. Tomoe, Tomoe's class, et
> > > > > > al.) and claim that because it worked in the story, the best way to deal
> > > > > > with anything is to eradicate it. Or I could write one where none of the
> > > > > > Senshi do anything about the invaders, and they eventually get
> > > > > > discouraged by the lack of opposition and leave Earth, and that this
> > > > > > story proves that no one should attempt to do anything about their
> > > > > > problems. And it would be just as valid as your argument.. because, in
> > > > > > fact, it *IS* your argument.
> > > > >
> > > > > It would be just as valid...
> > > >
> > > > ...which is to say, not at all. Thank you for confirming my point.
> > >
> > > No. As a potential storyline, they are all valid.
> >
> > By what judgment? What criteria? Certainly not valid as a reasonable or
> > realistic storyline ...
>
> Where did "realistic" come in? I just said they're all valid
> storylines, due to the nature of fiction.
Even fantasy is realistic, on a certain level. (Good fantasy, anyway.)
> > > I might add, however,
> > > that storylines such as yours would probably not have made SM a success.
> > > Certainly not as shoujo anime.
> >
> > The success of the anime has about nil to do with the point being made.
>
> True. That's why I prefaced this point with "I might add". It's
> a side comment. But it has everything to do with what is inside
> peoples' hearts. Why would people NOT want to watch Usagi and Co
> lose the battle??
... do you have the correct number of negative words in that last sentence?
Because I can't begin to parse it. ^^;;
> > Are you incapable of separating the story from those who wrote it? Or just
> > unable to parse the phrase "shouldn't have been able to?"
>
> I understand it quite well. I addressed it somewhat above. Further,
> in Neuro-Linguistic Programming, we are taught to "red flag" all
> absolute judgments (statements with "can't" or "shouldn't" or similar
> words) and ask, "Why?" Even in such bizarre examples like growing
> wings, all we can really say is that, so far as we know, no one has
> done it yet. This leads us to certain conclusions due to inductive
> reasoning. But these conclusions, as useful as they may be, remain
> hypotheses until proven. And it's very hard to prove something can't
> happen, and even harder to prove it shouldn't happen. On a practical
> level, I guide my life by these inductive hypotheses. But on an
> intellectual level, I remain aware that they're really just theories.
> I certainly don't EXPECT to grow wings. That would be stupid. But
> to say that I SHOULDN'T be able to grow wings is another story.
I can barely figure out what the heck the above paragraph is discussing, so
the best response I can offer is that theories about proof and fantasy and
impossibilities not being impossible are all well and good ... as mental
exercises. I'm not going to muddy the waters with them in a discussion about
bad storytelling, though, nor am I going to use them to justify unrealistic
behaviors and ideals.
<snip more stuff even less comprehensible than the above>
Robert Hutchinson
Xplo Eristotle
Andy Hock wrote:
>
> I understand it quite well. I addressed it somewhat above. Further,
> in Neuro-Linguistic Programming, we are taught to "red flag" all
> absolute judgments (statements with "can't" or "shouldn't" or similar
> words) and ask, "Why?" Even in such bizarre examples like growing
> wings, all we can really say is that, so far as we know, no one has
> done it yet. This leads us to certain conclusions due to inductive
> reasoning. But these conclusions, as useful as they may be, remain
> hypotheses until proven.
There's nothing worse than a trained philosophy geek. He invariably
knows no more about the subject than anyone else, but has less sense
than them, and is convinced of the opposite; in other words, philosophy
geeks are some of the most arrogant beings that exist, in light of their
being some of the most profoundly clueless tools that exist.
Like you.
You can say that nothing is true until you're blue in the face, but
despite that, I can still look out my window.
--
Xplo Eristotle
http://start.at/xplosion/
"Error has no rights." - Tomas de Torquemada
Robert Hutchinson
>
> Xplo Eristotle posted the following:
>
> S spoilers
>
> >Anyone with half a brain who watches SMS can see that no matter whether
> >what SM does works or not, it was clearly the stupidest possible thing
> >to do, and that she could have no way of knowing whether or not it would
> >do her any good. There can be no defense of her actions.
>
> way that all of the endings do. The theme of Sailor Moon is that the
> power of love is supreme, and that it can overcome any difficulty and
> conquer everything. Whether or not you believe this, that is the
> theme.
>
> In light of that, it wouldn't have made sense for Sailor Moon to keep
> the grail when she believed it would save Hotaru's life. Winning
> against the enemy by killing an "innocent" would not have shown the
> Power of Love theme at all. The same thing shows up in the conclusion
> to Stars.
In Stars, the R movie, and probably elsewhere, this theme is used ... but
notice that in Stars, in the R movie, and elsewhere, it's pretty much
Sailormoon's only choice. Not so in S. In the former, TPOL is the only
chance to save billions ... in S, it threatens those same people.
> Whether or not the story is realistic is beside the point. Sailor
> Moon loved Hotaru enough to give up the Sacred Cup to save her, and
> because of that she was able to defeat Pharoah 90.
I love money. I pick up a twenty-dollar bill off the ground. President
Whomever walks by a moment later and doesn't slip on the bill and kill
himself.
Did I save his life?
Robert Hutchinson
There's no causality involved here.
Aureal
Robert Hutchinson wrote in message <387808D1...@hotmail.com>...
>Chris Kern wrote:
>>
>> Xplo Eristotle posted the following:
>>
>> S spoilers
>>
>> >what SM does works or not, it was clearly the stupidest possible thing
>> >to do, and that she could have no way of knowing whether or not it would
>> >do her any good. There can be no defense of her actions.
>>
>> way that all of the endings do. The theme of Sailor Moon is that the
>> power of love is supreme, and that it can overcome any difficulty and
>> conquer everything. Whether or not you believe this, that is the
>> theme.
>>
>> In light of that, it wouldn't have made sense for Sailor Moon to keep
>> the grail when she believed it would save Hotaru's life. Winning
>> against the enemy by killing an "innocent" would not have shown the
>> Power of Love theme at all. The same thing shows up in the conclusion
>> to Stars.
>
>In Stars, the R movie, and probably elsewhere, this theme is used ... but
>notice that in Stars, in the R movie, and elsewhere, it's pretty much
>Sailormoon's only choice. Not so in S. In the former, TPOL is the only
>chance to save billions ... in S, it threatens those same people.
>
The case certainly is a bit more clear-cut in S, yes, but that's not
entirely true. In Stars Sailormoon could have just used the sword to kill
Galaxia/Chaos, but she didn't because she realized that Galaxia wasn't truly
evil and tried to help her instead. Had she failed at that, the world would
have been just as doomed as if the Silence had struck. She chose the less
certain way that would save even the 'enemy' because that's her nature. Same
thing in the R movie. Her friends were in trouble, and she wanted to save
everyone, so she dropped her weapon.
>> Whether or not the story is realistic is beside the point. Sailor
>> Moon loved Hotaru enough to give up the Sacred Cup to save her, and
>> because of that she was able to defeat Pharoah 90.
>
>I love money. I pick up a twenty-dollar bill off the ground. President
>Whomever walks by a moment later and doesn't slip on the bill and kill
>himself.
>
>Did I save his life?
>
Sure. I don't really see the point of your analogy, though.
>Robert Hutchinson
>There's no causality involved here.
Aureal
MoonieCode (1.12.05) SM:5+ F:sMe>+[+]Sa>+:vAlLe:p*>++S>++
X:*:aCl[R]SSS*s+++|ClRd[+]:m20r+ O:d-:s-:o++:a-:h-:x?
P:a+:s57:w:f:eBrg:hBr-:t-:cWh:*Gm:x99.2%:r|-
UtenaCode(1.0) U:4 F:Mi>+Ut>+ D:Sa-Na- X:[*]:a13++ M:f"Rinbu Revolution"
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Kakkoi Quote of the Day/Week/Month/Whatever...
If a soldier's pride means hurting other people, I don't want it.
-Tsukino Usagi, episode 200
Tolaris
>[the old 'who was right during SMS debate']
>If I jump off a cliff, I might sprout wings and fly ... but I should
>probably just not jump off the cliff, ne? His point is that six billion
>people *should've* been hurt.
--
On this Earth, probably; i have yet to hear a good reason
why we should apply the rules of mundane world to a 'magic
girls' anime, though.
Tolaris
one would think trifles like vastly different physics,
biology, social structure and talking cats would be enough
of a hint...
--
just before he died, he said:
"It can't be a beholder, we're only first level!"
Chris Kern
S spoilers
>Anyone with half a brain who watches SMS can see that no matter whether
>what SM does works or not, it was clearly the stupidest possible thing
>to do, and that she could have no way of knowing whether or not it would
>do her any good. There can be no defense of her actions.
In fact, the ending of S fits in with the series' theme in the same
way that all of the endings do. The theme of Sailor Moon is that the
power of love is supreme, and that it can overcome any difficulty and
conquer everything. Whether or not you believe this, that is the
theme.
In light of that, it wouldn't have made sense for Sailor Moon to keep
the grail when she believed it would save Hotaru's life. Winning
against the enemy by killing an "innocent" would not have shown the
Power of Love theme at all. The same thing shows up in the conclusion
to Stars.
Whether or not the story is realistic is beside the point. Sailor
Moon loved Hotaru enough to give up the Sacred Cup to save her, and
because of that she was able to defeat Pharoah 90.
-Chris
Robert Hutchinson
> Robert Hutchinson wrote ...
> >Chris Kern wrote:
<snip>
> >> Whether or not the story is realistic is beside the point. Sailor
> >> Moon loved Hotaru enough to give up the Sacred Cup to save her, and
> >> because of that she was able to defeat Pharoah 90.
> >
> >I love money. I pick up a twenty-dollar bill off the ground. President
> >Whomever walks by a moment later and doesn't slip on the bill and kill
> >himself.
> >
> >Did I save his life?
>
> Sure. I don't really see the point of your analogy, though.
See below. Do I deserve *credit* for saving his life? Should I be called
a hero for my action, or just the lucky recipient of serendipity?
> >Robert Hutchinson
> >There's no causality involved here.
Robert Hutchinson
Xplo Eristotle
Chris Kern wrote:
>
> Whether or not the story is realistic is beside the point.
On the contrary, it's very relevant. Its very unrealism is at the heart
of the discussion, because it's being used to justify holding similar,
unviable real life philosophies.
Or, in other words, people are saying "because Usagi believed in the
impossible and won, I can believe in the impossible and win as well".
Clearly, this is not the case.. but these same people seem unable to
distinguish fantasy from reality.
tenchsama
enemies to save those she loves (R Movie, Stars, etc.). It is similar to
Tenchi OAV, putting down his sword to face Kagato.
regards, tenchsama
"Chris Kern" <ck...@netnitco.net> wrote in message
news:3877fa66...@enews.newsguy.com...
> On Fri, 07 Jan 2000 14:15:43 -0700, Xplo Eristotle
> <inqui...@unforgettable.com> posted the following:
>
>
> S spoilers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Anyone with half a brain who watches SMS can see that no matter whether
> >what SM does works or not, it was clearly the stupidest possible thing
> >to do, and that she could have no way of knowing whether or not it would
> >do her any good. There can be no defense of her actions.
>
> In fact, the ending of S fits in with the series' theme in the same
> way that all of the endings do. The theme of Sailor Moon is that the
> power of love is supreme, and that it can overcome any difficulty and
> conquer everything. Whether or not you believe this, that is the
> theme.
>
> In light of that, it wouldn't have made sense for Sailor Moon to keep
> the grail when she believed it would save Hotaru's life. Winning
> against the enemy by killing an "innocent" would not have shown the
> Power of Love theme at all. The same thing shows up in the conclusion
> to Stars.
>
> Whether or not the story is realistic is beside the point. Sailor
> Moon loved Hotaru enough to give up the Sacred Cup to save her, and
> because of that she was able to defeat Pharoah 90.
>
> -Chris
>
Andy Hock
>
> Andy Hock wrote:
> >
> > Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> > >
> > > Then you're drawing an inaccurate comparison. Usagi's situation was
> > > lose/lose, not win/win. The unrealism I'm talking about stems from her
> > > winning a lose/lose situation - which is clearly not possible (if it
> > > was, it wouldn't be lose/lose).
> >
> > Usagi's situation was win/win. She survived. Haruka and Michiru
> > survived. Hotaru survived. The world was saved.
>
>
> - Sacrifice Hotaru, save world (a "loss", in her eyes).
> - Sacrifice world (clearly a loss).
>
> "Save world and Hotaru" was never an existing option. Hotaru's escape
> from Mistress 9, and the events that followed, were a deus ex machina..
> more proof that Usagi's situation was lose/lose, since deus ex machina
> invariably occurs when the heroes have NO chance of winning, and will
> lose without "divine" intervention on their behalf.
Disagree. Usagi never stopped believing that the world could be
saved without sacrifice. She didn't know how it was possible, but
her faith was big enough to believe anyway. This was the whole
basis of the Outers' conflict with her.
> > > Yeah, well, anyone who would promote such a diseased philosophy would
> > > surely defend it. Still doesn't make it (or you) right, though.
> >
> > No, I'm not "right".
>
> Again, thank you for giving me the point.
I'm disappointed. I thought you had too much integrity to quote
out of context to distort meaning. Or did you not understand
my point?
Andy Hock
Tolaris
>Tolaris wrote:
>> Robert Hutchinson wrote..
>>
>> >[the old 'who was right during SMS debate']
>> ><snip sm being a fantasy show>
>One would also notice that good fiction, no matter how strange or
>fantastic, carries with it strong and interesting messages, morals, and
>whatnot.
--
I'll accept it as your opinion.[personally, i disagree with
it -- i'd much rather read the story with whatnot, than with
morals and what its author considered interesting messages]
>By this argument, "standard" fiction cannot be allowed any
>outrageous plot twists ...
--
Depends on your definition of the outrageous plot twist; if
it includes a guy who sprouts wings after jumping off the
cliff, or the heroine defeating her enemies thanks to her
pure heart only...then no, these shouldn't be allowed;
because then it no longer would be "standard" fiction, ne?
Incidentally, i find it slightly ironic you'd like to see
outrageous plot twists in 'standard' fiction, but at the
same time complain such twists take place in pure fiction
BSSM is...oh well.
>but *all* science fiction can.
--
_science_ fiction is typically bound to find scientific
explanation for its outrageous plot twist; if it can pull it
off, more power to the author...
on the other hand, pure fiction can include whatever it damn
pleases -- it's the freedom which comes with picking this
particular genre. If the reader cannot adapt themselves to
it, the problem is with the reader and not the story...
>I certainly
>hope the flaw in this thinking is evident.
--
Yes, you made it clear enough; you seem to believe that all
fiction no matter how strange or fantastic should follow the
same set of rules?.. ^^
Tolaris
--
just before he died, he said:
"What do you mean I can't hide in shadows behind that sand dune ?!"
Alex Taylor
>> I suspect I would have made
>> the same choice in her place...
>
>And if you fail?
>
>Congratulations.. you just killed six billion people. But as long as you
>don't have to kill them with your own hand, it's okay, isn't it?
If I kill Hotaru, I'm a murderer that way too. This way, I have a chance
not to be. Besides, you were going on about ends and means in another
part of this thread. There's no excuse for murdering an innocent. Ever.
I hate to bring this into the conversation, but does anyone remember an
episode of ST:TNG where they were faced with a choice about saving a
planet on the verge of catastrophe? They could either - do nothing and
let thousands of people die, or - attempt a risky and unproven procedure
which would either save everyone, or destroy all life on the planet.
They chose the latter course. Anyone remember their reasoning?
(It was the episode with the scientist claiming to be from the 27th C.)
>> >Some of our philosophies have validity in the real world. Yours does not.
>>
>> Cynical, aren't we? Can't you believe that some people have more
>> idealistic vision...
>
>Yes.
>
>> ...and that they are not necessarily wrong for it?
>
>No.
I guess that's where we differ, then...
Alex Taylor
> > > Then you're drawing an inaccurate comparison. Usagi's situation was
> > > lose/lose, not win/win. The unrealism I'm talking about stems from her
> > > winning a lose/lose situation - which is clearly not possible (if it
> > > was, it wouldn't be lose/lose).
> >
> > Usagi's situation was win/win. She survived. Haruka and Michiru
> > survived. Hotaru survived. The world was saved. The season was
> > successful and loved by fans. Everybody won.
>
> "Jim is cornered by Tim. Tim holds a loaded gun to Jim's head. Jim says a
> magic word and flips a coin. The gun suddenly disappears, and they all lived
> happily ever after."
>
> Are you incapable of separating the story from those who wrote it? Or just
> unable to parse the phrase "shouldn't have been able to?"
In your example, Jim's DeM escape is totally off the wall and a violation of
the continuity's he is part of.
The resolution of S was neither -- it had been subtly set up from early on
in the season, and was quite complex in its reasoning.
Your use of "shouldn't be able to" is puzzling. Sailor Moon has frequently
accomplished the seemingly-impossible.
If you're going to say "shouldn't be able" to save both Hotaru and the world,
you might as well say she shouldn't have been able to bring everyone back to
life after the battle with Metallia.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Taylor BA - CIS - University of Guelph
al...@eddie.cis.uoguelph.ca http://eddie.cis.uoguelph.ca/~alex
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Later on they took the blood out to make the stories more
acceptable to children, or at least to the people who had to
read them to children rather than the children themselves (who,
on the whole, are quite keen on blood provided it's being shed
by the deserving*), and then wondered where the stories went."
--Terry Pratchett, "Hogfather"
* That is to say, those who deserve to shed blood. Or possibly
not. You never quite know with some kids.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Frank White
>
>Andy Hock wrote:
>>
>> Xplo Eristotle wrote:
<snip>
>> > Then you're drawing an inaccurate comparison. Usagi's situation was
>> > lose/lose, not win/win. The unrealism I'm talking about stems from her
>> > winning a lose/lose situation - which is clearly not possible (if it
>> > was, it wouldn't be lose/lose).
>>
>> Usagi's situation was win/win. She survived. Haruka and Michiru
>> survived. Hotaru survived. The world was saved.
>
>Her choices were these:
>
>- Sacrifice Hotaru, save world (a "loss", in her eyes).
Sacrificing Hotaru wouldn't be a loss, in your eyes?
>- Sacrifice world (clearly a loss).
Or find a third way that saved everybody.
Being Usagi, she refused to believe such a thing didn't exist.
And being Usagi, she found it.
>"Save world and Hotaru" was never an existing option. Hotaru's escape
>from Mistress 9, and the events that followed, were a deus ex machina..
>more proof that Usagi's situation was lose/lose, since deus ex machina
>invariably occurs when the heroes have NO chance of winning, and will
>lose without "divine" intervention on their behalf.
Uh... guys?
It's a magical girl show. It is not reality, or at least not OUR
reality. In MGS there are certain groundrules which apply. Unless
it's a CLAMP show, in which case Kamisama knows what's going to
happen. But in the normal course of things in such shows, evil can
not ultimately result from doing good. Lives are not sacrificed
unnecesssarily. And there is ALWAYS a way, if your heart is pure and
your determination is strong. And the goal is honorable. (Rei lived
through the last Gloom and Doom girl's attack long enough to finish
her, despite all the damage inflicted on her, because her goal was to
protect her Princess). Usagi seems to understand the rules of her
universe subconsciously, if not intellectually. To insist her actions
and philosophy are dumb because they woulnd't work in OUR world is
comparing kumquats and concrete cinder blocks. Doesn't work.
Now, as to trying to use Usagi's philosophy IN our world: As long
as you keep in mind that here there ARE no groundrules that insure it
will work, and than in fact disaster can follow from such actions,
I have no problems with it.
FW
Xplo Eristotle
Andy Hock wrote:
>
> Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> >
> > Andy Hock wrote:
> > >
> > > Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Then you're drawing an inaccurate comparison. Usagi's situation was
> > > > lose/lose, not win/win. The unrealism I'm talking about stems from her
> > > > winning a lose/lose situation - which is clearly not possible (if it
> > > > was, it wouldn't be lose/lose).
> > >
> > > Usagi's situation was win/win. She survived. Haruka and Michiru
> > > survived. Hotaru survived. The world was saved.
> >
> > Her choices were these:
> >
> > - Sacrifice Hotaru, save world (a "loss", in her eyes).
> > - Sacrifice world (clearly a loss).
> >
> > "Save world and Hotaru" was never an existing option. Hotaru's escape
> > from Mistress 9, and the events that followed, were a deus ex machina..
> > more proof that Usagi's situation was lose/lose, since deus ex machina
> > invariably occurs when the heroes have NO chance of winning, and will
> > lose without "divine" intervention on their behalf.
>
> Disagree. Usagi never stopped believing that the world could be
> saved without sacrifice. She didn't know how it was possible, but
> her faith was big enough to believe anyway. This was the whole
> basis of the Outers' conflict with her.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the ending was
pushed along by a deus ex machina.
I could also make a point about the irrelevancy of faith, but since (a)
you've joined a church as a preacher, and (b) faith seems to have value
in SMS, and you're incapable of distinguishing between the fantasy world
of SM and the real world, I imagine I'd be wasting my time.
(Gee.. you can't separate fantasy and reality, AND you're in a church.
Go figure. :P )
> > > > Yeah, well, anyone who would promote such a diseased philosophy would
> > > > surely defend it. Still doesn't make it (or you) right, though.
> > >
> > > No, I'm not "right".
> >
> > Again, thank you for giving me the point.
>
> I'm disappointed. I thought you had too much integrity to quote
> out of context to distort meaning.
Well, until this thread, I didn't think that you were a neoliberal. If
you'd like me to quote more politely, say something worth quoting and
spare us all the "black is white, up is down, nothing is true" crap.
Nevertheless, the quote remains in context. It's hardly my fault if your
diseased philosophy leads you to sabotage your own arguments by denying
them like this.
--
Xplo Eristotle
http://start.at/xplosion/
"Error has no rights." - Tomas de Torquemada
Robert Hutchinson
> Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> >> I suspect I would have made
> >> the same choice in her place...
> >
> >And if you fail?
> >
> >Congratulations.. you just killed six billion people. But as long as you
> >don't have to kill them with your own hand, it's okay, isn't it?
>
> If I kill Hotaru, I'm a murderer that way too. This way, I have a chance
> not to be. Besides, you were going on about ends and means in another
> part of this thread. There's no excuse for murdering an innocent. Ever.
"I have a chance not to be" ... that sounds incredibly heartless to me.
"Hey, gang, I don't want this on my conscience, so I'm gambling your lives,
'kay?"
There's no excuse for murdering an innocent? Tell that to anyone who's had
to choose between two people's deaths.
(Creepy ... this is turning into "Sailormoon Tuvix.")
Robert Hutchinson
Robert Hutchinson
> Yes, you made it clear enough; you seem to believe that all
> fiction no matter how strange or fantastic should follow the
> same set of rules?.. ^^
Yes. I'd phrase it as "Fiction shouldn't cheat," but one can't cheat without
the existence of rules. Deus ex machina is a cheat. It's been acknowledged
as such for centuries. It removes all the wallop the story carries.
Robert Hutchinson
Robert Hutchinson
>
> Robert Hutchinson wrote:
>
> > > > Then you're drawing an inaccurate comparison. Usagi's situation was
> > > > lose/lose, not win/win. The unrealism I'm talking about stems from her
> > > > winning a lose/lose situation - which is clearly not possible (if it
> > > > was, it wouldn't be lose/lose).
> > >
> > > Usagi's situation was win/win. She survived. Haruka and Michiru
> > > survived. Hotaru survived. The world was saved. The season was
> > > successful and loved by fans. Everybody won.
> >
> > magic word and flips a coin. The gun suddenly disappears, and they all lived
> > happily ever after."
> >
> > Are you incapable of separating the story from those who wrote it? Or just
> > unable to parse the phrase "shouldn't have been able to?"
>
> the continuity's he is part of.
>
> The resolution of S was neither -- it had been subtly set up from early on
> in the season, and was quite complex in its reasoning.
>
> Your use of "shouldn't be able to" is puzzling. Sailor Moon has frequently
> accomplished the seemingly-impossible.
Here, HERE, is the problem. In S, Sailormoon *didn't* *accomplish* *anything*.
If she'd held up the Grail and said some stuff about healing with love, fine.
It would've been cliched, but it wouldn't have cheated. But no, in S, instead
of everything working out because of Usagi, everything worked out in spite of
her. She was lucky.
> If you're going to say "shouldn't be able" to save both Hotaru and the world,
> you might as well say she shouldn't have been able to bring everyone back to
> life after the battle with Metallia.
I didn't say she shouldn't be able to save both Hotaru and the world. I'm
saying that the specific actions she took shouldn't be sufficient to do so.
(And they weren't. Again, luck.)
Robert Hutchinson
Robert Hutchinson
> Or find a third way that saved everybody.
>
> Being Usagi, she refused to believe such a thing didn't exist.
>
> And being Usagi, she found it.
And yet, no one ever actually manages to say *what* she found.
> happen. But in the normal course of things in such shows, evil can
> not ultimately result from doing good. Lives are not sacrificed
> unnecesssarily. And there is ALWAYS a way, if your heart is pure and
> your determination is strong. And the goal is honorable.
But see, there's the problem. If you have those rules in your show, you
can't just trample all over them. "Well, the good side has to win, so who
cares what their actions are, yeah, just go with that story ..."
In other words, if good always beats evil, good doing stupid things is not
the way to endear yourselves to the audience. It's a cheat, and it breaks
suspension of disbelief.
Robert Hutchinson
Andy Hock
>
> Andy Hock wrote:
> >
> > Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> > >
> > > Andy Hock wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Then you're drawing an inaccurate comparison. Usagi's situation was
> > > > > lose/lose, not win/win. The unrealism I'm talking about stems from her
> > > > > winning a lose/lose situation - which is clearly not possible (if it
> > > > > was, it wouldn't be lose/lose).
> > > >
> > > > Usagi's situation was win/win. She survived. Haruka and Michiru
> > > > survived. Hotaru survived. The world was saved.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Sacrifice Hotaru, save world (a "loss", in her eyes).
> > > - Sacrifice world (clearly a loss).
> > >
> > > "Save world and Hotaru" was never an existing option. Hotaru's escape
> > > from Mistress 9, and the events that followed, were a deus ex machina..
> > > more proof that Usagi's situation was lose/lose, since deus ex machina
> > > invariably occurs when the heroes have NO chance of winning, and will
> > > lose without "divine" intervention on their behalf.
> >
> > Disagree. Usagi never stopped believing that the world could be
> > saved without sacrifice. She didn't know how it was possible, but
> > her faith was big enough to believe anyway. This was the whole
> > basis of the Outers' conflict with her.
>
> Which has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the ending was
> pushed along by a deus ex machina.
Well that was because it's fiction.
> I could also make a point about the irrelevancy of faith, but since (a)
> you've joined a church as a preacher, and (b) faith seems to have value
> in SMS, and you're incapable of distinguishing between the fantasy world
> of SM and the real world, I imagine I'd be wasting my time.
I was referring to secular faith. If I meant religious Faith, I'd
have capitalized it.
> (Gee.. you can't separate fantasy and reality, AND you're in a church.
> Go figure. :P )
How, dear friend, did you reach the conclusion that I can't
separate fantasy from reality?? Apparently, you've disregarded
everything I've posted on this subject.
Andy Hock
P.S The sermon went quite well today, thank you. ^_-
Robert Hutchinson
>
> Xplo Eristotle wrote:
>
> > pushed along by a deus ex machina.
>
> Well that was because it's fiction.
Uh ... huh. All fiction has dei ex machina (sp?)?
Robert Hutchinson
Xplo Eristotle
Andy Hock wrote:
>
> Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> >
> > (Gee.. you can't separate fantasy and reality, AND you're in a church.
> > Go figure. :P )
>
> How, dear friend, did you reach the conclusion that I can't
> separate fantasy from reality??
Um, from reading your last half-dozen posts or so, in which you attempt
to prove the validity of a philosophy in real life by showing that it
succeeded in a story.. especially when even its success IN that story
had nothing to do with its validity?
> Apparently, you've disregarded
> everything I've posted on this subject.
On the contrary, if I hadn't, I would still believe to this day that you
were one of the relatively sane AFSMers. It took a week of your
ridiculous babbling to convince me otherwise.
Chris Schack
"tenchsama" <tenc...@home.com> wrote:
Tenchi Muyo! OAV
S
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>It is her standard behavior - she always disarms herself in face of her
>enemies to save those she loves (R Movie, Stars, etc.). It is similar to
>Tenchi OAV, putting down his sword to face Kagato.
Then again, the series is called "Tenchi Muyo!". The interesting point
being how you translate that.
Chris Schack
Robert Hutchinson
>
> Robert Hutchinson wrote...
>
> >Here, HERE, is the problem. In S, Sailormoon *didn't* *accomplish* *anything*.
> >If she'd held up the Grail and said some stuff about healing with love, fine.
> >It would've been cliched, but it wouldn't have cheated. But no, in S, instead
> >of everything working out because of Usagi, everything worked out in spite of
> >her. She was lucky.
>
> in one sitting), there's something about it that just seems to, well,
> /work/.
>
> Maybe she only hit on the key by chance, a pure fluke, but it still
> stands that Usagi actually found the key.
A) Yeah, chance and pure fluke makes a storyline "work." -_-
B) Which of her actions, specifically, led to the outcome we saw?
> Also, she refused to give up in her ideals. Any other action would
> have been just wrong for her.
I have acknowledged as much.
> >> If you're going to say "shouldn't be able" to save both Hotaru and the world,
> >> you might as well say she shouldn't have been able to bring everyone back to
> >> life after the battle with Metallia.
> >
> >I didn't say she shouldn't be able to save both Hotaru and the world. I'm
> >saying that the specific actions she took shouldn't be sufficient to do so.
> >(And they weren't. Again, luck.)
>
> True. But her actions were the only ones that Usagi would make. She's
> too impulsive, and too caring, to have taken any other actions. And
> remember, she isn't the smartest of the senshi. She also believes in
> not sacrificing anybody. Those two things mean that she honestly owuld
> have considered anything toerh than giving up the Grail. If she had,
> it wouldn't be her.
>
> Besides, it seems to fit in with the whole of the Sailor Moon series.
> She's got a big herat, but is a bit of a flake. But she always manages
> to stumble on the right solutions. Yea, maybe that makes her lucky,
> but she *is* the heroine of the show, after all.
So, hero = right? You don't have to worry about making it believable, or
giving it emotional impact?
> [*] I know of several things in my life where I've been damn lucky to
> get it right, but have built on it and learned from it. So why can't
> Usagi have the same break?
Usagi is a fictional character in a dramatic series, perhaps? I can't
understand how this flies with so many people ...
To be a bit more specific, nothing in the storyline even begins to suggest
that Usagi knows she's taking a gamble. Nothing suggests that she's
extremely relieved that six billion people didn't die; everything suggests
that she never grasped that possibility to begin with.
Robert Hutchinson
Sailorstartitan
> To be a bit more specific, nothing in the storyline even begins to suggest
> that Usagi knows she's taking a gamble. Nothing suggests that she's
> extremely relieved that six billion people didn't die; everything suggests
> that she never grasped that possibility to begin with.
That's probably because, as I mentioned earlier, she KNOWS the world is
coming to an end because King Endymion told her in R the Earth fell into
Cold Sleep, but everyone was saved in the 30th century by NQS and the
Ginzuishou. And even if she hadn't given up the Grail, that's possibly what
could've happened. M9 would have tricked Usagi in another way to get it.
I do not regard Sailormoon's actions as stupid at all. You need to have an
overall view of the entire series. Remember in Classic, when she repeatly
shouted in the frozen north that she would give the Ginzuishou to Beryl if
her friends could be spared? The only reason she didn't was because they had
all died before she had reached Beryl. Here, she gave the Grail because
there was still hope that Hotaru could be saved.
--
"A revolving star guarding the immortal Princess of Ruin and Rebirth,
weilding the Guardian Glaive; here I am: Sailorstartitan!"
Robert Hutchinson
>
> <Snip>
> > To be a bit more specific, nothing in the storyline even begins to suggest
> > that Usagi knows she's taking a gamble. Nothing suggests that she's
> > extremely relieved that six billion people didn't die; everything suggests
> > that she never grasped that possibility to begin with.
>
> That's probably because, as I mentioned earlier, she KNOWS the world is
> coming to an end because King Endymion told her in R the Earth fell into
> Cold Sleep, but everyone was saved in the 30th century by NQS and the
> Ginzuishou.
And as I mentioned earlier, this is crap pulled out of left field as a
justification. You can claim whatever you like, but when the show isn't
giving any hint of it, it's hot air.
> I do not regard Sailormoon's actions as stupid at all. You need to have an
> overall view of the entire series. Remember in Classic, when she repeatly
> shouted in the frozen north that she would give the Ginzuishou to Beryl if
> her friends could be spared? The only reason she didn't was because they had
> all died before she had reached Beryl. Here, she gave the Grail because
> there was still hope that Hotaru could be saved.
I believe you're confusing "not stupid" with "not true to character." For
the umpteenth time, I think the writers dropped the ball, not Usagi. Had
Usagi given up the ginzuishou in Classic, and had she won anyway by a stroke
of luck, I'd be ticked off about that, too.
Robert Hutchinson
Matthew Patterson
> you've joined a church as a preacher, and (b) faith seems to have value
> in SMS, and you're incapable of distinguishing between the fantasy world
> of SM and the real world, I imagine I'd be wasting my time.
>
> Go figure. :P )
I have to respond to this. I don't mean to start a holy war (although I know
it's going to anyway), but faith is NOT irrelevant. I have a strong
Christian faith, and it does give me strength. I'm sorry if you don't have
anything to believe in, or if you feel that there isn't anything worth
believing in, but please, don't slam the people who do have faith (in
whichever god/goddess of their choosing.) I've seen it in action, and it
DOES have power.
--
Moonie Code:
SM:5+m- F:sPl>+:vM9+:aQs:pS* D:sCh:vAn+:aPe X:***:a3r[+]|35s++|ClR
O:d-[-]:s-[-]:a[-]:h+:x? P:a15:s56:w145:f:eBLg:hBlBr:t-:cWhNA:*Ta:x?:r+|+
-M
Xplo Eristotle
"Tiggs (AndyK)" wrote:
>
> It was alt.fan.sailor-moon, and Robert Hutchinson
> <ser...@hotmail.com> did write...
>
> >Here, HERE, is the problem. In S, Sailormoon *didn't* *accomplish* *anything*.
> >If she'd held up the Grail and said some stuff about healing with love, fine.
> >It would've been cliched, but it wouldn't have cheated. But no, in S, instead
> >of everything working out because of Usagi, everything worked out in spite of
> >her. She was lucky.
>
> Maybe so, but after finally seeing the final eps of S (recently, and
> in one sitting), there's something about it that just seems to, well,
> /work/.
>
> Maybe she only hit on the key by chance, a pure fluke, but it still
> stands that Usagi actually found the key.
Okay.. but look, here's how the plot went down (and if this doesn't
convince you that something's a bit fishy in SM Plotland, I don't think
anything will):
1. If the villains get the Doohickey of Power, they win.
2. Amazingly enough, the villains get the Doohickey of Power.
3. The villains lose, through no action of the heroes.
Now, I don't care at the moment if SM is a fantasy, or if it's
fictional, or if what Moon did was in character, or if the story was
supposed to have a certain theme. Hey, even I thought it was fun to
watch, for the most part. But from a literary standpoint, the ending is
crap, because it can't even remain internally consistent.
Robert's example of the guy who gets held up only to flip a coin and
magically turn his attacker into his friend, as it turns out, isn't
exaggerated at all. In both cases, we have a perfectly acceptable story
with an ending that makes no sense.
Alex Taylor
<ser...@hotmail.com> wrote:
As I'm now discussing specifics, I'll put in another
MAJOR spoilers for end of S
W
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>> > "Jim is cornered by Tim. Tim holds a loaded gun to Jim's head. Jim says a
>> > magic word and flips a coin. The gun suddenly disappears, and they all lived
>> > happily ever after."
>> >
>> > Are you incapable of separating the story from those who wrote it? Or just
>> > unable to parse the phrase "shouldn't have been able to?"
>>
>> In your example, Jim's DeM escape is totally off the wall and a violation of
>> the continuity's he is part of.
>>
>> The resolution of S was neither -- it had been subtly set up from early on
>> in the season, and was quite complex in its reasoning.
>>
>> Your use of "shouldn't be able to" is puzzling. Sailor Moon has frequently
>> accomplished the seemingly-impossible.
>
>Here, HERE, is the problem. In S, Sailormoon *didn't* *accomplish* *anything*.
>If she'd held up the Grail and said some stuff about healing with love, fine.
>It would've been cliched, but it wouldn't have cheated. But no, in S, instead
>of everything working out because of Usagi, everything worked out in spite of
>her. She was lucky.
But she _did_ do something. She saved Hotaru.
Here's the events I as saw them (broadly put):
1. Uranus and Neptune say that either Hotaru must die, or the world will.
2. Sailor Moon refuses to accept this, and takes a leap of faith on the
assumption that there will be another way. (The contentious decision.)
3. Mistress Nine destroys the Grail. At the final moment, Hotaru regains
enough strength inside her and awakens Sailor Saturn.
4. Sailor Saturn, to Usagi's dismay, goes back to choice 1 - she goes to
sacrifice herself that the world may be saved. She enters the vortex.
At this point, there have been no real developments in the dilemma. It's
still the same as it started out: Hotaru or the world. Right now the
"Hotaru-must-die" looks as if it's going to win.
5. Usagi, combined with power from the others, manages to power up.
This evidently gives her the power to enter the vortex and save
Hotaru, at the moment Sailor Saturn and Pharoah 90 meet in what would
otherwise have been mutual annihilation. As it is, Hotaru cannot
be saved "as is", and is reborn as an infant.
There are two crucial developments. #3, when the friendship between
Hotaru and Chibi-usa gives Hotaru the strength to break free. It is
Chibi-usa who makes this possible, who (as I remind you) arrived here
from _outside_ the current timeline.
Without this step, Mistress Nine would have let Pharoah 90 into the
world, and Sailor Saturn (at least so I infer) would never have arrived.
End of all life as we know it.
The other development, the one that resolves the sacrifice dilemma, is
#5, and it's Usagi who does it.
>> If you're going to say "shouldn't be able" to save both Hotaru and the world,
>> you might as well say she shouldn't have been able to bring everyone back to
>> life after the battle with Metallia.
>
>I didn't say she shouldn't be able to save both Hotaru and the world. I'm
>saying that the specific actions she took shouldn't be sufficient to do so.
>(And they weren't. Again, luck.)
I'm sorry, I just don't see where you're coming from in that claim.
--
Alex Taylor
<ser...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >And if you fail?
>> >
>> >Congratulations.. you just killed six billion people. But as long as you
>> >don't have to kill them with your own hand, it's okay, isn't it?
>>
>> If I kill Hotaru, I'm a murderer that way too. This way, I have a chance
>> not to be. Besides, you were going on about ends and means in another
>> part of this thread. There's no excuse for murdering an innocent. Ever.
>
>"I have a chance not to be" ... that sounds incredibly heartless to me.
>"Hey, gang, I don't want this on my conscience, so I'm gambling your lives,
>'kay?"
Better to gamble for a chance at life, than resign to a certainty of
murder.
>There's no excuse for murdering an innocent? Tell that to anyone who's had
>to choose between two people's deaths.
>
>(Creepy ... this is turning into "Sailormoon Tuvix.")
Except, from Usagi's point of view, the death of billions was not a
certainty, whereas the death of Hotaru would be, if she chose the other
course.
Tolaris
>Tolaris wrote:
>
>I'd phrase it as "Fiction shouldn't cheat," but one can't cheat without
>the existence of rules. Deus ex machina is a cheat. It's been acknowledged
>as such for centuries. It removes all the wallop the story carries.
--
But in this case, so does the existence of ginzuishou..which
basically /is/ deus ex machina? Yet for a strange reason you
can see people constantly complaining about the S finale,
but rarely about Usagi's peculiar jewelry....
Tolaris
a bit puzzled.
--
just before he died, he said:
"We're HOW close to a super nova?"