SICK & TIRED OF SOS!
thefeli...@my-dejanews.com
I've been posting here as 'Nitekatt' and 'TheFelineKnight' so while I may
have not been as vocal as others,I have kept up on things.
I see myself as an average SM fan in his early 30's who enjoys the concepts
and characters in all it's forms-may it be manga,or anime-dubbed or
subtitled.
I've become sick of SOS!
Yep,I have become sick of SOS over 2 things...
#1)The Bitching about the delay on CARTOON NETWORK
about the running of the remaning 17 dubbed shows!
As I read this from the SOS page-it seems that CN's plans to built up even
stronger viewership via a 2nd run of the first 65 and promote the heck out
of the 17 shows- and keep in mind they have only been seen in maybe 5% of
the US-thus they are totally new as far as CN sees it-IS THE BEST THING TO
HAPPEN and MAY BE SAILOR MOONs BEST SHOT FOR A DECENT FOOTHOLD in THE US!
This is Just what is needed-a broadcaster who has reconized the value of
SAILOR MOON-this is what the fans and not to mention the business parties
involved have wanted for the past couple of years! In otherwords-the series
is finally seen as having value!
SOS-Be greatful for this-DON'T FIGHT IT! You're going to blow our one
chance short of the LA movie for something to happen!
The true thing that matters in Broadcasting
is ratings! Not your procots,boycots,etc!
SAILOR MOON is getting 'second life' on CN
because of Viewership!(Hopefully this will
translate into sales for IRWIN in the
speciality shop/internet market!)
I wonder how many people here or on the SOS pettion are Nelson Rating
homes? This would prove that the nubers don't lie,that the letters to CN
don't lie either. and it's all being done on it's own,not becuase of SOS
With 11 years in video media production and
and interest in Broadcasting,I speek with a
bit of insight than 'the average fan' when
it comes to the business of broadcasting.
Besides,I'm sick of Pop-tarts!
#2)This MIXXZINE Boycott thingy!
Yeh,this is stupid! More SAILOR MOON Manga
in The US and you guys go nuts! perhaps
this is more motivated by the Naiko chat
not happening? hmmm.
Hey,MIXXZINE is great! not only do I get
SAILOR MOON,but I get to sample other fine
Manga!
I also pick up the SM pocket book. Nice
to read a few chapters at once,just as it
is to read the latest issues.
If the Subscriptions are going to be
carried over for those who wish-then
what is the big deal?
Seems SOS isn't happy unless it has something to protest! There are SAILOR
MOON's two outlets in AMERICA-and they find fault with both! What's the
problem?
Program Exchange and Cartoon Network are doing a good job to see that the
show is available,and MIXXZINE is presenting us with the manga on a reguar
basis!
As I said,procotts and boycotts are not gonig to work! They make us look
like fools! I'm sure both DIC and BAN-DAI are sick of us due to SOS! As for
IRWIN-they are a medium sized toy company who value us as customers and
continue to do their best to meet the demands of the Canaidan and US markets
the best they can.
What we can do is buy MIXXZINE,Watch CN- support the advertisers,let them
know we are watching,(with letters and e-mails),and by the IRWIN toys via
speciality shops &the internet.
As for SMS or THe SMR movie getting dubbed-leave that to the business
people to work out-the viewership numbers will be noticed sooner or later.
They know we are here-more now than ever! Irwin/Ban-DAI/DIC will work things
out eventually. Remember,BAN-DAI could gain more by re-entering the US SAILOR
MOON toy market rather than letting IRWIN.
In otherwords SOS-Stop whinning and do
something constructive not 'fanish'!
Nitekatt:TheFelineKnight
Steve Russo
Brad-you want to add anything to this 'Sugar Free' view of SOS? I have
always respected your view and take on things.
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Clarise451
> carried over for those who wish-then
> what is the big deal?
>
> Seems SOS isn't happy unless it has something to protest! There are SAILOR
>MOON's two outlets in AMERICA-and they find fault with both! What's the
>problem?
>
> Program Exchange and Cartoon Network are doing a good job to see that the
>show is available,and MIXXZINE is presenting us with the manga on a reguar
>basis!
>
> As I said,procotts and boycotts are not gonig to work! They make us look
>like fools! I'm sure both DIC and BAN-DAI are sick of us due to SOS! As for
>IRWIN-they are a medium sized toy company who value us as customers and
>continue to do their best to meet the demands of the Canaidan and US markets
>the best they can.
>
> What we can do is buy MIXXZINE,Watch CN- support the advertisers,let them
>know we are watching,(with letters and e-mails),and by the IRWIN toys via
>speciality shops &the internet.
>
I don't agree, personally. While I *never* agree with SOS's stance of 'if you
were really a Sailor Moon fan, you'd do it' concerning every action they decide
to take, it is a person's right to say that they do not approve of a company's
business practices and that they will no longer support the company.
Your "buy MIXXZINE, Watch CN, support the advertisers," etc, stance is exactly
what SOS was preaching--well, until the chat with Naoko was canceled.
I don't like their overreaction to CN's delaying the 17 dubbed episodes either.
I think CN had the right idea.
But I'm not so sure about the MIXXZINE thing. I don't like the idea that SOS
is telling people to boycott Mixx for two reasons: the first is that it adds
one more thing to the list of things you 'should' do if you're 'a real Sailor
Moon fan'; the second is that it seems antithetical to what SOS says they want,
which is more Sailor Moon in North America.
Even if I don't like SOS's boycott, for those two reasons, that doesn't mean
that I have to support Mixxzine. And I won't.
"Beyond the beyond
where the willows weep
and the whirlpools sleep
you'll find me
And the nightmare rides on"-Billy Corgan
ICQ-me! 12816567
Moonie Code(1.3.13) SM:5+ F:sMo>:vZoKu:aNaUm O:d-s-o-a+h P:a :s+:w
:f-:eGBrg:hBlBr+:cW:x :r+|-
Farix
> #2)This MIXXZINE Boycott thingy!
>
> Yeh,this is stupid! More SAILOR MOON Manga
> in The US and you guys go nuts! perhaps
> this is more motivated by the Naiko chat
> not happening? hmmm.
>
> Hey,MIXXZINE is great! not only do I get
> SAILOR MOON,but I get to sample other fine
> Manga!
>
> I also pick up the SM pocket book. Nice
> to read a few chapters at once,just as it
> is to read the latest issues.
>
> carried over for those who wish-then
> what is the big deal?
>
> Seems SOS isn't happy unless it has something to protest! There are SAILOR
>MOON's two outlets in AMERICA-and they find fault with both! What's the
>problem?
There are more then a few reason the be pissed off at Mixx. This included
the steady drop of manga content since issue 1-2, even with 5 series now,
the splitting up of two similar titles into to different magazines forcing
customers of those titles to pay twice, if not three times, as much as
before, the lying by top Mixx executives about why Sailor Moon was moved to
Smile. Need I say more?
Farix
Animeg3282
> I also pick up the SM pocket book. Nice
> to read a few chapters at once,just as it
> is to read the latest issues.
I think I'll practice the whole "Just buy the PM" thing. Easier and I don't
have to carry the translations around and have my mom complain about low paper
in the printer
Small Girl
Co-defender of the Scouts, AOL, and Relm
AGFF Goddess and Guru of Cute, Diminutive Mistress
of Leather and Lace, and of Small Words
SM Dub immune and Yaoi Brigade Member
Peruru Fan Club Member
On Topic will bloom. ;)
Glenn Moreau
>But I'm not so sure about the MIXXZINE thing. I don't like the idea that SOS
>is telling people to boycott Mixx for two reasons: the first is that it adds
>one more thing to the list of things you 'should' do if you're 'a real Sailor
>Moon fan'; the second is that it seems antithetical to what SOS says they want,
>which is more Sailor Moon in North America.
The only thing I can say is that Mixxzine started out life by
adding those coupons to the 6 dic version tapes (and one each in the
doom tree boxed set). It said read the Sailor Moon manga in Mixxzine.
That's what they promised, that's what people who subscribed to the
magazine thought they were going to get, and then blam!, the old bait
and switch. Mind you, overall I am not complaining, its just that if I
had to venture a wild guess, I would have to say that most people who
did subscribe to Mixx in the first year of their existance, did it for
Sailor Moon, not parasyte, MKR, etc. I just hope that they didn't cut
their own throats and end up going out of business by killing the cash
cow to save to save a few bucks.
Glenn
Moonie Code[1.811]SM:5+ F:Mo+pCl* X:a150r+++|20s++|27d+ O:d-- s o a h-
P:a36s6w180: :ebr:hbr:t :cwh:y :r+|-
MoonPrince
people who run it(Ming?) are idiots. I mean, another case of good
intentions gone bad. Other than providing misinformation(Prince Uranus?
Nay-OH-ko for Naoko...) what have they done?
Sure you as a Moonie sign up thinking you're doing something positive for
English SailorMoon, but are you really? I've always wondered this
question. Just because SOS is making a huge fuss about stuff, does it
mean that the companies cared?
Just because SM was cancelled in '96 and eventually came back in Summer
'97, does that mean, SOS and you the petition-signer, had anything to do
with it? I think perhaps SOS got SM to be recognized more than it used
to, but IMO, it all came down to what the companies wanted. So my point
is, those supporting SOS think they are doing something positive, but in
actuality, may be doing nothing for the show. It's just the mentality
that you the viewer have a say in the matter helps SOS stay alive.
This isn't a bad thing in itself, but when you look at all the idiotic
information and speculation the page maintainers give out, how can you
support them? This is where I draw the line. Takeuchi-san shoulda
slapped all y'alls who called her Nay-OH-ko if you learned that off SOS.
Knowledge is power indeed.
-mp
__________________________________________________
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Maria: Tatoe Sore ga Inochi wo Kakeru Tatakai de Attemo
Kanna: Ataitachi wa Ippo mo Hikanai ze!
Iris: Itsu no Hi ga Kono Teino ni
Kouran: Aku ga Nakunaru Hi made
Sumire: Watakushitachi wa Tatakai Tsuzukemasu!
Minna: Sore ga Teikoku Kagekidan na no desu!
-Sakura Taisen 2
__________________________________________________
MoonPrince's Anime Page- Anime, video games, Japanese CD Reviews.
http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~hueyt/
Aaron Maupin
(thefeli...@my-dejanews.com) wrote:
> Yep,I have become sick of SOS over 2 things...
>
> #1)The Bitching about the delay on CARTOON NETWORK
> about the running of the remaning 17 dubbed shows!
If you want to see "bitching," wait until our lengthy report on the
Comic-Con hits the page.
I think you are overreacting to our Cartoon Network story. We get along
well with them - this isn't some sort of "bombs away" letter campaign, we
just don't think their logic fits an arc series like Sailor Moon.
> #2)This MIXXZINE Boycott thingy!
Where did you get this idea?
Save Our Sailors is not boycotting Mixx. Maybe you were reading a
different web page?
Aaron Maupin
/ maup...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu
/ Site Supervisor of the 18th Ave. Lab
TSntana97
<Pine.GSO.3.96.980830...@catbert.ucdavis.edu>:
>
<snip>
> Takeuchi-san shoulda slapped all y'alls who called her Nay-OH-ko if you
> learned that off SOS.
Okay. I keep on seeing this being brought up. I have a question for Aaron or
Ming. How do *you* pronounce the above phonetic spelling. Is it Nay (as in
Raye)-OH-ko or is it Nay (as in rye)-OH-ko. The latter sounds closer and
that's how I understood your spelling. I can't make any sense as to why the
other spelling would be used.
TSntana97
Aaron Maupin
tsnt...@aol.com (TSntana97) wrote:
> I keep on seeing this being brought up. I have a question for Aaron or
> Ming. How do *you* pronounce the above phonetic spelling.
I pronounce Naoko as "Nah-oh-ko," with either no accent or an accent on
the "oh." (Someone else would be better help with the accent, as I have
only studied Japanese for two years and my English accent is HORRID.)
We did have "Nay-oh-ko" or something similar written on the web page, but
corrected it when we learned of the mistake. To answer your question, if
I saw this I would pronounce it following the first example you mentioned
(rhyming "Nay" with "Raye"). There is no "long A" sound in Japanese,
though you can simulate it with an "eh-ee" combination. That would put
one too many syllables in Naoko, however.
xp...@infomagic.com
thefeli...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I'm sorry,I felt it was time for me to speak up. for the last couple of years
> I've been posting here as 'Nitekatt' and 'TheFelineKnight' so while I may
> have not been as vocal as others,I have kept up on things.
>
> I see myself as an average SM fan in his early 30's who enjoys the concepts
> and characters in all it's forms-may it be manga,or anime-dubbed or
> subtitled.
>
> I've become sick of SOS!
>
>
> #1)The Bitching about the delay on CARTOON NETWORK
> about the running of the remaning 17 dubbed shows!
Can't comment on this one. I miss being online... ;_;
> #2)This MIXXZINE Boycott thingy!
>
> Yeh,this is stupid! More SAILOR MOON Manga
> in The US and you guys go nuts! perhaps
> this is more motivated by the Naiko chat
> not happening? hmmm.
SOS is boycotting Mixxzine? Wow, my respect for them just went up a notch.
Which isn't to say they it's anywhere aboveground yet...
> Hey,MIXXZINE is great! not only do I get
> SAILOR MOON,but I get to sample other fine
> Manga!
Soon, you'll stop getting SM, and that sample seems to be getting smaller and
smaller. I take it you haven't been keeping up with recent Mixx news?
> I also pick up the SM pocket book. Nice
> to read a few chapters at once,just as it
> is to read the latest issues.
Hope you value that "reading" thing REALLY highly, since you can get the
original tankoubon at almost 50% off of Comixx' price.
> Seems SOS isn't happy unless it has something to protest! There are SAILOR
> MOON's two outlets in AMERICA-and they find fault with both! What's the
> problem?
Maybe they suck?
> What we can do is buy MIXXZINE,Watch CN- support the advertisers,let them
> know we are watching,(with letters and e-mails),and by the IRWIN toys via
> speciality shops &the internet.
What we can do is get the original manga, watch fansubs and raw Japanese
episodes, and tell the "industry" that we're tired of their shit, and if they
don't start raising standards REAL QUICK, they'll lose all their sales market
to the Japanese.
> Brad-you want to add anything to this 'Sugar Free' view of SOS? I have
> always respected your view and take on things.
Obviously I'm not Brad, but he's been one of Comixx' strongest supporters, and
even he's not happy with them.
-Xplo
xp...@infomagic.com
MoonPrince <ez07...@mailbox.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
> Hmm... i guess I'm not too much in the know about SOS, but I think the
> people who run it(Ming?) are idiots. I mean, another case of good
> intentions gone bad. Other than providing misinformation(Prince Uranus?
> Nay-OH-ko for Naoko...) what have they done?
>
> Sure you as a Moonie sign up thinking you're doing something positive for
> English SailorMoon, but are you really? I've always wondered this
> question. Just because SOS is making a huge fuss about stuff, does it
> mean that the companies cared?
>
> Just because SM was cancelled in '96 and eventually came back in Summer
> '97, does that mean, SOS and you the petition-signer, had anything to do
> with it? I think perhaps SOS got SM to be recognized more than it used
> to, but IMO, it all came down to what the companies wanted. So my point
> is, those supporting SOS think they are doing something positive, but in
> actuality, may be doing nothing for the show. It's just the mentality
> that you the viewer have a say in the matter helps SOS stay alive.
>
> This isn't a bad thing in itself, but when you look at all the idiotic
> information and speculation the page maintainers give out, how can you
> slapped all y'alls who called her Nay-OH-ko if you learned that off SOS.
Sounds good to me. ;)
xp...@infomagic.com
> <Pine.GSO.3.96.980830...@catbert.ucdavis.edu>:
> >
> <snip>
> > learned that off SOS.
>
> Ming. How do *you* pronounce the above phonetic spelling. Is it Nay (as in
> Raye)-OH-ko or is it Nay (as in rye)-OH-ko. The latter sounds closer and
> that's how I understood your spelling. I can't make any sense as to why the
> other spelling would be used.
Uh? They're both incorrect. "Naoko" would sound like "NAH-OH-KO".
Shiva the perpetually busy
On 31 Aug 1998, TSntana97 wrote:
> Okay. I keep on seeing this being brought up. I have a question for Aaron or
> Ming. How do *you* pronounce the above phonetic spelling. Is it Nay (as in
> Raye)-OH-ko or is it Nay (as in rye)-OH-ko. The latter sounds closer and
> that's how I understood your spelling. I can't make any sense as to why the
> other spelling would be used.
Both are wrong.
NAH-O-KO.
Does anyone speak Spanish? Japanese vowels are identical.
TSntana97
I know how to pronounce Naoko. I understand a little Spanish and Filipino and
I've used that as an aid until I started learning how to pronounce Japanese
words. I've always pronounced it 'Nah-oh-ko'. My reason for asking Aaron or
Ming is because I was curious about how they intended the phonetic spelling on
their page to sound like. I was not aware that it was actually a mistake and
(according to Aaron), it was corrected.
TSntana97
Battle Angel
> I just hope that they didn't cut their own throats and end up going out
> of business by killing the cash cow to save a few bucks.
Wow...now THAT is a METAPHOR! Minako would be proud....
*-Gally-*
*************************************************************************
Je deviens folle, donc je suis.
Feline...@webtv.net
maup...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Aaron Maupin) wrote:
> In article <6sb5pn$sus$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> (thefeli...@my-dejanews.com) wrote:
>
> >
> > #1)The Bitching about the delay on CARTOON NETWORK
> > about the running of the remaning 17 dubbed shows!
>
> Comic-Con hits the page.
>
> I think you are overreacting to our Cartoon Network story. We get along
> well with them - this isn't some sort of "bombs away" letter campaign, we
> just don't think their logic fits an arc series like Sailor Moon.
Well,it reads as 'bitching'! Forget logic-CN sees value in the '17'
episodes to hold them for 13 weeks fine-worth the wait! Dosen't matter how
good or bad relationship with CARTOON NETWORK and SOS is,it reads as
disaproval of how they are airring the series! The focus should be-episodes
held to grow viewership and promotion not 'gee,this isn't logical.' last I
saw,broadcasting is about money not logic!
This 'victim of our own success' line has to be so 'corny'! Success is what
SAILOR MOON needs on it's owmn without SOS or a film behind it. Can most of
the world be wrong?
As suggested-what SAILOR MOON needs to stand on is raitings first and fans
second. Again,the question I ask-how many SOS or AFSM members/supports have
rating metters in their homes? The numbers come first,and our 'thank you'
letters to CN or Program Exchange come second!
> > #2)This MIXXZINE Boycott thingy!
>
> Where did you get this idea?
Actually it's been implied on several posts thoughout the last couple of
weeks-perhaps I misread-my appologies on this one.
> Save Our Sailors is not boycotting Mixx. Maybe you were reading a
> different web page?
So what is SOS's offical view of the new mag for SM manga?
> Aaron Maupin
>
> / maup...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu
> / Site Supervisor of the 18th Ave. Lab
I'm just wondering what you guys think you can do to get SMS (or the SMR
movie) dubbed? Other than ramming the viewership figures down
DIC,BAN-DAI,ERWIN,YTV,CN and PROGRAM EXCHANGES throats which speak for
themself-what can you do?
That's just the point-the show is finally doing well in America on a
national basis-and the parties involved can't agree!
I'm still sick of pop-tarts!
-Nitekatt:TheFelineKnight
Steve Russo
thefeli...@my-dejanews.com
You come up with a solid idea-and I'll be the first to support it!
Rosen
>Glenn Moreau wrote:
>> I just hope that they didn't cut their own throats and end up going out
>> of business by killing the cash cow to save a few bucks.
>Wow...now THAT is a METAPHOR! Minako would be proud....
LOL!!
Minako: "Don't kill the cow and cut your throat!"
Artemis: "That's, um... Hell, I've no damn idea what that is."
Minako: "They say it that way too."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ake ROSENius (khel...@algonet.se), official sponsor of this .sig
Sailor Moon in Sweden: http://www.algonet.se/~khelatar/moon.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Maupin
> Well,it reads as 'bitching'!
Maybe our definitions differ. To me a better description of bitching
would be some of the messages on here complaining about the Cartoon
Network's decision.
> Dosen't matter how good or bad relationship with CARTOON NETWORK
> and SOS is,it reads as disaproval of how they are airring the series!
Well, that is exactly what it is. No more, no less.
If we wanted to be caustic we would have included the following in the
article: CN's mailing address, their email address, and a better
suggestion about where to register a complaint than their AOL chat rooms.
> This 'victim of our own success' line has to be so 'corny'!
And thus we wrote it corny.
> Again,the question I ask-how many SOS or AFSM members/supports have
> rating metters in their homes? The numbers come first,and our 'thank you'
> letters to CN or Program Exchange come second!
I'm not sure about this, but I believe actively soliciting the
participants of a rating service like Nielsen Media Research could
possibly get some of the companies involved with Sailor Moon into
trouble. Even if it was just SOS doing it. Certainly it wouldn't help
much if it skewed the data. And besides, if you have a Nielsen box in
your home, you're supposed to keep it secret, right?
The "thank you" letters to the Program Exchange helped out a lot.
Regarding numbers, the Cartoon Network used the demographics we gathered
along with our offline petition, so they helped, too.
> > > #2)This MIXXZINE Boycott thingy!
> >
> > Where did you get this idea?
>
> Actually it's been implied on several posts thoughout the last couple of
> weeks-perhaps I misread-my appologies on this one.
No problem.
> So what is SOS's offical view of the new mag for SM manga?
I don't know if we have one yet. Our story about the Comic-Con is not
going to flatter Mixx, that's for sure. But that's almost a different
matter. What will probably happen is that we will write a story about
what Mixx is doing and readers/potential subscribers can decide about it
themselves. You may notice that we no longer have pictures of MixxZine at
the bottom of the main page.
> I'm just wondering what you guys think you can do to get SMS (or the SMR
> movie) dubbed? Other than ramming the viewership figures down
> DIC,BAN-DAI,ERWIN,YTV,CN and PROGRAM EXCHANGES throats which speak for
> themself-what can you do?
Dubbing the movies into English seems to be going hot and cold. Last I
heard it was REALLY hot, but then I didn't hear anything more, so who
knows? Companies are making deals all the time, and only some of them ever
become a reality.
As for Sailor Moon S, we actually have an idea, but it's too early to talk
about it.
> I'm still sick of pop-tarts!
Me too. I get the feeling that if the product fans had chosen for the
advertiser procott had been Post's Honey Comb or General Mill's Lucky
Charms, the procott wouldn't have gotten such a bad wrap. Pop Tarts are
apparently just too easy to make fun of.
xp...@infomagic.com
maup...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Aaron Maupin) wrote:
> Me too. I get the feeling that if the product fans had chosen for the
> advertiser procott had been Post's Honey Comb or General Mill's Lucky
> Charms, the procott wouldn't have gotten such a bad wrap. Pop Tarts are
> apparently just too easy to make fun of.
No, I think that no matter what had been chosen it'd still be a laughingstock
today.
-Xplo
Glenn Moreau
>LOL!!
>Minako: "Don't kill the cow and cut your throat!"
>Artemis: "That's, um... Hell, I've no damn idea what that is."
>Minako: "They say it that way too."
Stands up and takes a bow.
Minako: Usagi, don't read that manga, it's evil!
Usagi: But it's funny about this cow, and ....
Rei: Usagi, you're such an airhead. It's a going out of business sale!
Usagi: Hahahahahahahaha.....
to be continued....
Aaron Maupin
following as a reply.
---
I wish some people on the internet would read some of the posts on the SOS
web site more closely and give some consideration before reacting.
I would think that it would have been made sufficiently clear by now that
we and The Cartoon Network have been working together for months, if not
years regarding the presentation of "Sailor Moon."
For the most part we and the network have been in agreement. But, if you
read the current post carefully (and can add) you will realize that the
network currently intends to present the new episodes somewhere within the
current 65 episode package--in other words, out of order. (If you are in
favor of this then I would have to say that you have little regard for
anime and for sequential storytelling as a whole.)
We have a proposed an alternative, that The Cartoon Network could
temporarily drop the "Doom Tree" episodes and in this fashion present the
17 new episodes during the November sweeps (which is their goal). (And
there is always the possibility of forgoing the sweeps and presenting the
new episodes in December.)
To the network's defense, it should be noted that they are not entirely
familiar with this series. They do not own it. They are much more
familiar with properties (Warner Bros., Hanna-Barbera, etc.) which they do
own. When you are working at a network it is virtually impossible to be
knowledgeable about every program which is aired.
The SOS has suggested that if you should not like the fact that the new
episodes have not been shown that you should somehow contact the network.
Failing to do so shall clearly indicate to the network that they are
correct and could schedule the episodes anyway they'd like. We would be
hard pressed to disagree with them on this issue in the future.
Further, as we have posted, we believe that the delay would not
significantly increase the ratings. The Cartoon Network may not be fully
informed on what the other networks are planning for the November sweeps.
Are you?
Brad Lascelle
> Companies are making deals all the time, and only some of them ever
> become a reality.
> As for Sailor Moon S, we actually have an idea, but it's too early to
> talk about it.
No offense, Aaron... but why exactly is it "too early" to talk
about a potential party plan of action with the fans you supposedly
represent?
SOS may have emerged as a viable source of information, but
that doesn't discount from the fact that you've arbitrarily decided
courses of action without seeking any kind of fan input whatsoever.
In the two and a half years you've been in existence, you've
only gone to the fans on one occasion to decide which over-calorie,
sugarcoated snack food you'd procott back in December 1996.
I don't exactly know how comfortable you are with this... but
the track record of 'Save Our Sailors' seems to indicate that you
value the opinion of one man (David Koenigsberg) over the combined
input of every person who signed that petition of yours.
Doesn't sound very fair to me...
===
Brad Lascelle <pa...@negaverse.org> | Marmalade Boy * EVA * Nadesico
UIN#: 3724914 | Hana Yori Dango * Sailor Moon
| Rurouni Kenshin * Fushigi Yuugi
* Cartoon Network Pushes Back Final 17 SMR Episodes 'Til The Fall
Ann Mills
Aaron Maupin wrote in message ...
Not sure. I'm Australian, and we barely get a full episode rather than all
of them out of order. Come ON. You guys over there have them, but out of
order. We don't have them at ALL.
Michuru
Dave Manning
>
> In article <6sj4nb$29j$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Feline...@Webtv.net wrote:
>
> > Again,the question I ask-how many SOS or AFSM members/supports have
> > rating metters in their homes? The numbers come first,and our 'thank you'
> > letters to CN or Program Exchange come second!
>
> I'm not sure about this, but I believe actively soliciting the
> participants of a rating service like Nielsen Media Research could
> possibly get some of the companies involved with Sailor Moon into
> trouble. Even if it was just SOS doing it. Certainly it wouldn't help
> much if it skewed the data.
What? SOS skew data? Pshaw, that's not the sort of thing SOS would do!
> > So what is SOS's offical view of the new mag for SM manga?
>
> I don't know if we have one yet. Our story about the Comic-Con is not
> going to flatter Mixx, that's for sure. But that's almost a different
> matter. What will probably happen is that we will write a story about
> what Mixx is doing and readers/potential subscribers can decide about it
> themselves.
Funny, isn't it against the SOS policy to give readers room for
interpretation?
> As for Sailor Moon S, we actually have an idea, but it's too early to talk
> about it.
Please don't. I'm actually quite surprised that you haven't suggested
that the SOS fanatics get some fansubs.
> > I'm still sick of pop-tarts!
>
> Me too. I get the feeling that if the product fans had chosen for the
> advertiser procott had been Post's Honey Comb or General Mill's Lucky
> Charms, the procott wouldn't have gotten such a bad wrap. Pop Tarts are
> apparently just too easy to make fun of.
Right, it's the pop tarts that everyone's making fun of. Mmhmm.
Up until a month ago, I had been pretty neutral regarding SOS. However,
you (SOS) have done some things that are immoral. What's the big idea
with blaming it on the fans when you fail at something? It's certainly
not their fault. How can you possibly take credit for anything positive
that happens, like the 17 Canadian eps? SOS most likely had nothing to
do with that. The episodes were made for Canadian television because it
was known that the show was quite popular in Canada (hence the Irwin
Sailor Moon toys coming out in droves). Some of your actions have been
counter-productive for fans of subbed Sailormoon, and Takeuchi-san
should have publicly discredited you for calling her Michiru and Haruka
(or Merissa and Corine *blech*) "just good friends". If you're going to
be a fan organization, act responsible and get your facts straight.
Right now you don't have my support.
--
Dave Manning http://members.tripod.com/~hawks_eye/
Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/
MoonieCode(2.01b7)
SM:7-[8]m- F:sOu++[+]St:v:WiTi:pS D:Ch--[-]:vBl
X:a9r+[+]|29s+[+]|81d:m4r+|1s+ O:d-s-o--a-h--
P:a17:s511:w-:f-:eBrGL:hBr[-]:t-[-]:cWh:65.5%:r+|
Latimer84
> that doesn't discount from the fact that you've arbitrarily decided
> courses of action without seeking any kind >of fan input whatsoever.
I don't get the snack food reference...
-Geoff, aka Lati...@aol.com, aka worshipper of FoxTrot in all its (the '
was a typo!) glory, worshipper of Non Sequitur in all its... its... non
sequitity?
"Don't make me sick the cabbit on you!" "I wonder why sigs are in the 3rd
person..."
--Me
Aaron Maupin
(pa...@negaverse.org) wrote:
> No offense, Aaron... but why exactly is it "too early" to talk
> about a potential party plan of action with the fans you supposedly
> represent?
Just a few examples: when it involves information we have promised not to
reveal publically, when it involves information we don't want other
companies to know, when it is not a "party plan of action," when we
haven't really begun to discuss it ourselves...
> I don't exactly know how comfortable you are with this... but
> the track record of 'Save Our Sailors' seems to indicate that you
> value the opinion of one man (David Koenigsberg) over the combined
> input of every person who signed that petition of yours.
We really appreciate what David AND our other advisors say. The only
reason it seems that we listen to these people more than, say, fans
pushing the email petition to dub S (of which I have received on the
average of 5 copies per day for two months now) is that they know more
about television and have better industry contacts. If we discussed
certain things with the public we would lose those contacts instantly.
Some people probably couldn't see it, but we had a java applet tickertape
on the top of the SOS homepage asking for suggestions on how to help get
season S dubbed. So far we've received many responses.
Aaron Maupin
dman...@nospam.execulink.com (Dave Manning) wrote:
> I'm actually quite surprised that you haven't suggested
> that the SOS fanatics get some fansubs.
My suggestion for Sailor Moon fanatics is to buy the laserdiscs. This is
the best way to watch Sailor Moon. If you don't own a laserdisc player,
rent one and copy the episodes to VHS.
Fansubs' greatest strength is in introducing people to anime. They
provide a great service in that respect. But they are also illegal and
they are essentially stealing from Toei, Kodansha, Naoko Takeuchi, etc. I
think it highly immoral to not own original copies of fansubs if you are
regularly watching or displaying them. Of course it's not easy to get
certain discs anymore, so just how immoral such a practice is becomes
variable.
Profiteers from fansubbing/fandubbing are scum.
> Up until a month ago, I had been pretty neutral regarding SOS. However,
> you (SOS) have done some things that are immoral.
What did we do in the last month that was immoral? Some examples, please.
> with blaming it on the fans when you fail at something?
When did we do this?
> How can you possibly take credit for anything positive
> that happens, like the 17 Canadian eps?
From the SOS page way back when:
] Thank You Irwin Toys!
] Thanks To Canadians!
] Thank You YTV!
] Thanks To Everyone at DiC!
] And Thanks To All Our Loyal Supporters!
]
] Irwin Toys, the leading sponsor of "Sailor Moon" on Canada's
] YTV Network has made an agreement to present 17 new English
] dubbed episodes.
SOS didn't exactly take credit for these episodes.
> Some of your actions have been
> counter-productive for fans of subbed Sailormoon
Please explain this further, if you don't mind. Which actions, and how
are they counter productive? My opinions above regarding fansubs are not
necessarily SOS', but keep in mind that fansubs are illegal and there is
no way that SOS can support them without angering the copyright holders.
> and Takeuchi-san should have publicly discredited you for
> calling her Michiru and Haruka (or Merissa and Corine *blech*)
> "just good friends".
Where did your quote come from? We never said they were just friends, but
instead offered an unsubstantiated fanzine interview that said they were
"former lovers ironically reunited as the same gender." It was wrong for
us to have done so, even though we stated within the piece that it was an
interpretation. (There was an error in our logic, as well.) So we
changed the piece. Now that Naoko herself has publically stated that the
two are "lovers," the page in question will change again.
Ken Arromdee
Oh, good, someone from SOS on here.
Well, when's SOS going to completely take out the Prince Uranus thing or at
least not present it as though it and the truth are two equally likely
possibilities? The way SOS is presenting it, well, maybe Haruka was a guy
and maybe she's not, and that just isn't right--that puts a rumor with no
source on the same level with manga references and direct quotes from Naoko.
There _aren't_ two real sides to every argument, and it's about time SOS
admitted being wrong without any "whichever of these the truth turns out to
be" things.
Especially since supposedly Naoko was going to be asked at San Diego Comic
Con. Well, she was asked. She answered. Haruka is female and was always
female, and Haruka and Michiru are lesbians. You can't get much clearer than
that. So how about changing the page to reflect this?
--
Ken Arromdee |They said it was *daft* to build a space
arro...@inetnow.net |station in a swamp, but I showed them! It
karr...@nyx.nyx.net |sank into the swamp. So I built a second
http://www.inetnow.net/~arromdee|space station. That sank into the swamp too.
--------------------------------+My third space station sank into the swamp.
So I built a fourth one. That fell into a time warp and _then_ sank into the
swamp. But the fifth one... stayed up! --Monty Python/Babylon 5
Brad Lascelle
> But they are also illegal and they are essentially stealing from
> Toei, Kodansha, Naoko Takeuchi, etc. I think it highly immoral to
> not own original copies of fansubs if you are regularly watching or
> displaying them. Of course it's not easy to get certain discs
> anymore, so just how immoral such a practice is becomes variable.
> Profiteers from fansubbing/fandubbing are scum.
Actually, I'm in agreement with you here, Aaron. Profiteers
from fansubbing and fandubbing are scum... then again, keep in mind
that the top global moneymaker this century has been the military,
wars, and weapons of mass destruction.
Also keep in mind that copying programming off of television
of any kind and showing it to your friends is illegal... jaywalking is
also illegal.
That being said, I can understand and agree completely as to
why SOS can't start pitching fansub distributors through their
official site. When you've got David Koenigsberg going out of his way
to kiss corporate ass for you, you can't tick anybody off. ;)
> SOS didn't exactly take credit for these episodes.
You didn't in that stretch of commentary, Aaron... but in the
past you have stated comments like 'we did it' and have given
indication to lead your supporters into believing that your procott
and their petitions 'may have' played an instrumental role in positive
developments regarding the series.
Which is essentially talking out of your ass, because nobody in
any place of authority would ever state anything of the sort. You
have inferred it... you have implied it... don't pretend you've done
otherwise.
Even now, you've got a statement saying "once again, a victim
of 'our own success'" headlining the site.
> Now that Naoko herself has publically stated that the two are
> "lovers," the page in question will change again.
She never should have been obligated to state that as such
publically as the nature of Haruka and Michiru's relationship was
blatantly obvious to all concerned.
This is a series geared towards kids, after all... Sailor Moon
has never been a show wrought with complexity in any format or medium.
It's as straightforward as anime gets. I won't deny that the purists
made an issue out of it and blew things considerably out of
proportion, but you can't deny that Ming's policies regarding the
nature of their relationship both on his web page and in his mailing
lists have been homophobic... and now you're apologizing for him.
One other detail I'd like to address... I've noticed that on
Ming's Sakura Taisen page, he's been lobbying against Jurgen Appelo
for the 'non-democratic' way he maintains his world charts lists due
to the way votes for the ST series have been skewed and handicapped
against the competition.
Personally, I just found this rather humorous given that SOS
has hardly been democratic in the way it's dealt with its supporters
and in terms of seeking input from the fans whom they purport to
represent.
===
Brad Lascelle <pa...@negaverse.org> | Marmalade Boy * EVA * Nadesico
ICQ UIN#: 3724914 | Hana Yori Dango * Sailor Moon
| Rurouni Kenshin * Fushigi Yuugi
* It's Here... Pokemon Unleashed In Syndication Across North America
Brad Lascelle
> Just a few examples: when it involves information we have promised
> not to reveal publically, when it involves information we don't want
> other companies to know, when it is not a "party plan of action,"
> when we haven't really begun to discuss it ourselves...
Well, obviously you have discussed something amongst yourselves
in the inner circle, as you said as much yourself that you had
'something in mind' and that it was too early to discuss at this point
in time.
Secondly, what does a potential party plan of action have to do
at all with information you don't want 'other companies to know'... as
if they've got nothing better to do than monitor your lines of
communication... public or otherwise?
You are a fan organization. You supposedly represent the
interests of the fans as you profess as much to the companies and
contacts David puts you in touch with. You can certainly do as much
as discuss your options, share your non-privileged information, and
consult with your supporters in a PUBLIC forum as to what the ideal
next steps to take are.
It's not like any of your plans in the past have been
formulated on a foundation of privileged information anyhow.
> We really appreciate what David AND our other advisors say. The only
> reason it seems that we listen to these people more than, say, fans
> pushing the email petition to dub S (of which I have received on the
> average of 5 copies per day for two months now) is that they know
> more about television and have better industry contacts. If we
> discussed certain things with the public we would lose those contacts
> instantly.
That's just the thing, Aaron... you're not even making any
efforts to discuss ideas in general... non-privileged or otherwise...
with your supporters. Not through the newsgroups. Not through the
SOS mailing list. Not through your website.
You've got that little Java banner running on your front page,
but there are no assurances that you'll give any of that input its
fair share of consideration. Any worthwhile suggestions are never
brought up for discussion with the fans you supposedly represent.
Numerous other advisers or not, every single one of your plans
of action have had David Koenigsberg's handiwork in place for the last
2 1/4 years.
Either the same guy who once suggested that crashing DIC's
central mainframe was a great idea has just been banging off sheer
genious idea after sheer genious idea or you're not doing your fair
share of listening to the people whom you should be accountable to and
you're misrepresenting yourselves to all of those networks and
companies David's put you in contact with.
He may have the skills, the know-how, the tools, and the
resources to have landed you some pretty solid inroads. I'm not
disputing that. But you owe the fans you supposedly represent some
respect and some attention.
At the moment, SOS has undertaken a socialist leadership
structure of 'David Knows Best... or SOS Knows Best' and as such
you've made arbitrary decisions on behalf of your supporters because
you feel that you 'know more about television' and therefore any
outside opinions are bound to be ill-informed and irrelevant.
It's nice to know that you've finally acknowledged what many
people have always said... most of the people who signed on that
petition of yours way back when were pretty damn clueless.
However, while myself or others may not have the industry
savvy, the contacts, or the Communist radical tendencies of a David
Koenigsberg, what I do know is that there are a wide number of people
on this newsgroup and elsewhere online with good heads on their
shoulders and some know-how of how the industry works... certainly
more than reknowned SOS bootlicks like Ditchdigger and Marc Wang, whom
you have no problem throwing ideas off of.
So long as you continue to maintain that established policy,
don't lose sight of the fact that you're deluding yourselves if you
think you've got any kind of support outside of your bootlick lobby
and that segment of your one-time supporters whom you 'know more about
the industry' than. To everyone else, you'll still be the poptart
people with a fairly solid informative website.
Just a cursory question to close thing out, Aaron. Do you
really think SOS has flourished more under a closed circle,
socialistic, 'holier than thou' mentality than it would have if you
had just maintained an open dialogue with the fans you represent?
How the hell can you expect any corporate interest to respect
your interests as Sailor Moon enthusiasts and your organization when
you can't even respect the people who've given you their support since
March 1996? Something to think about...
===
Brad Lascelle <pa...@negaverse.org> | Marmalade Boy * EVA * Nadesico
ICQ UIN#: 3724914 | Hana Yori Dango * Sailor Moon
| Rurouni Kenshin * Fushigi Yuugi
* EX Anime Magazine Issue 3.5 Now Online -- www.ex.org
Aaron Maupin
Arromdee) wrote:
> Haruka is female and was always
> female, and Haruka and Michiru are lesbians. You can't get much
> clearer than that. So how about changing the page to reflect this?
As I've said recently (and as the SOS page states) it will be changed soon.
Aaron Maupin
<pa...@negaverse.org> wrote:
> Actually, I'm in agreement with you here, Aaron. Profiteers
> from fansubbing and fandubbing are scum... then again, keep in mind
> that the top global moneymaker this century has been the military,
> wars, and weapons of mass destruction.
An excellent point. I would add the little-known fact that frogs help
push their food down their throats with their eyes.
> You didn't in that stretch of commentary, Aaron... but in the
> past you have stated comments like 'we did it' and have given
> indication to lead your supporters into believing that your procott
> and their petitions 'may have' played an instrumental role in positive
> developments regarding the series.
Yes, we certainly have. I have discussed in the past why we believe the
procott had a good effect on the English Sailor Moon. What was under
discussion was the production of the 17 episodes for Canada. The procotts
and petitions are different matters.
> Even now, you've got a statement saying "once again, a victim
> of 'our own success'" headlining the site.
Yes, but that is in regards to the show's placement on the Cartoon
Network, not the production of the 17 episodes. You are using our
statements about one thing to bolster your arguments against us regarding
another.
> This is a series geared towards kids, after all... Sailor Moon
> has never been a show wrought with complexity in any format or medium.
> It's as straightforward as anime gets. I won't deny that the purists
> made an issue out of it and blew things considerably out of
> proportion, but you can't deny that Ming's policies regarding the
> nature of their relationship both on his web page and in his mailing
> lists have been homophobic... and now you're apologizing for him.
As I explained earlier, the Sailor Moon Looney mailing list was censored
due to angry parents complaining about the nature of sexual discussion.
You were there.
The web page is censored on even more levels, probably, but not in any
homophobic way. The editor of the "What Are We Missing" page believed
Haruka and Michiru to be homosexuals, and as far as I know the writer did
as well. (Neither was Ming, by the way.)
> One other detail I'd like to address... I've noticed that on
> Ming's Sakura Taisen page, he's been lobbying against Jurgen Appelo
> for the 'non-democratic' way he maintains his world charts lists due
> to the way votes for the ST series have been skewed and handicapped
> against the competition.
Ming's other pages are his concern, so maybe you can ask him. I don't
know anything about it.
Ken Arromdee
>> This is a series geared towards kids, after all... Sailor Moon
>> has never been a show wrought with complexity in any format or medium.
>> It's as straightforward as anime gets. I won't deny that the purists
>> made an issue out of it and blew things considerably out of
>> proportion, but you can't deny that Ming's policies regarding the
>> nature of their relationship both on his web page and in his mailing
>> lists have been homophobic... and now you're apologizing for him.
>As I explained earlier, the Sailor Moon Looney mailing list was censored
>due to angry parents complaining about the nature of sexual discussion.
>You were there.
I was there. The Looney list was censored because Ming's homophobic.
He thinks that my FAQ describes Sailor Moon as a "gay show". Also, there
was no sexual discussion on the list to speak of. He thinks that _mentioning_
that characters are homosexual counts as sexual discussion.
Aaron Maupin
<pa...@negaverse.org> wrote:
> It's not like any of your plans in the past have been
> formulated on a foundation of privileged information anyhow.
Oh boy, is this statement ever false.
> It's nice to know that you've finally acknowledged what many
> people have always said... most of the people who signed on that
> petition of yours way back when were pretty damn clueless.
I didn't say that. I made a contrast between two different groups, of
which the majority of SOS supporters (I suspect) fall between. Most in
the "inner circle" (as you call it) fall between it - I know I do.
> However, while myself or others may not have the industry
> savvy, the contacts, or the Communist radical tendencies of a David
> Koenigsberg, what I do know is that there are a wide number of people
> on this newsgroup and elsewhere online with good heads on their
> shoulders and some know-how of how the industry works... certainly
> more than reknowned SOS bootlicks like Ditchdigger and Marc Wang, whom
> you have no problem throwing ideas off of.
Well it's good to see that David is now the evil overlord of SOS instead
of me, I suppose. Communist radical tendencies??? Can you even begin to
explain what you're trying to say here? Maybe some examples so that those
of us who are friends with David can understand what the hell you're
talking about?
And both Ditchdigger and Marc have contributed loads to SOS and are not
"reknowned bootlicks." I consider them friends as well. For others
reading who might be swayed by Brad's comments, keep in mind that he
hasn't known many (any?) specifics about those of us behind the webpage
for several years now.
There are a number of people on this newsgroup that have good heads on
their shoulders. That doesn't mean I'm going to tell them (for example)
something Lisa Robertiello told me in secret.
> Just a cursory question to close thing out, Aaron. Do you
> really think SOS has flourished more under a closed circle,
> socialistic, 'holier than thou' mentality than it would have if you
> had just maintained an open dialogue with the fans you represent?
What a great question! Seriously, do you want SOS to blab everything
we're told, getting people's hopes up with deals that never happen,
pissing off our contacts by revealing to the public and other companies
information they're keeping secret, etc. etc? We're trying to walk a fine
line, whether YOU see it or not.
Latimer84
>line, whether YOU see it or not.
::trip:: No, just kidding. But seiously, I agree with Brad. You can't represent
people and ignore them at the same time.
-Geoff, who is AFRAID of the MKR OAV!
xp...@infomagic.com
maup...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Aaron Maupin) wrote:
> In article <35F615B5...@negaverse.org>, Brad Lascelle
> <pa...@negaverse.org> wrote:
> > really think SOS has flourished more under a closed circle,
> > socialistic, 'holier than thou' mentality than it would have if you
> > had just maintained an open dialogue with the fans you represent?
>
> we're told,
If you don't, what's the point of getting told?
> getting people's hopes up with deals that never happen,
Would this be like the SMS dub and the Irwin Procott?
> pissing off our contacts by revealing to the public and other companies
> information they're keeping secret, etc. etc?
So instead, you piss off the fans by not revealing to them all that
information that they supposedly wouldn't be able to find out about
otherwise.
> We're trying to walk a fine
> line, whether YOU see it or not.
I think you're walking the wrong side of it. I suspect that SOS has become so
enamoured of itself as some kind of corporate power that it's forgotten
1. that it's virtually impotent, and
2. that it's supposed to be a FAN organization.
Brad Lascelle
> What a great question! Seriously, do you want SOS to blab everything
> we're told, getting people's hopes up with deals that never happen,
> pissing off our contacts by revealing to the public and other
> companies information they're keeping secret, etc. etc? We're trying
> to walk a fine line, whether YOU see it or not.
And how exactly are you walking along this line, Aaron? By
providing the 60,000 or so fans you claim to represent only one
opportunity to provide direct tangible input into an SOS endeavour
throughout the last 30 months? The facts indicate that you're more
accountable to your handful of contacts than any of your supporters.
Secondly, you're diverting the issue. Just because you've got
a few tidbits of privileged information here and there doesn't justify
not consulting the people whom you represent whatsoever in a public
forum. You're completely out of touch with them.
What you don't realize is that you can communicate, deliberate,
and have some honest communication about potential SOS ideas and
issues pertaining to the dub and other projects without even delving
into any of your highly confidential top-security secrets.
Hell, I had prior knowledge of Irwin's financing of the 2nd
production run, DIC's interest in the Sailor Moon movies, several
Mixxzine titles... among other things... and you know what?
I was still able to participate and foster creative and
intelligent discussion without divulging details on any of them... and
silly me, but I'm not running a fan organization which should obligate
me to be accountable to anyone.
You don't feel any debt or need to push for any kind of
creative thought or input whatsoever... you just arbitrarily hand out
assignments and objectives as if to a bunch of nursery school toddlers
to suit an agenda you won't even outline in public.
You may say 'there are a number of people on this newsgroup
that have good heads on their shoulders' but you sure as hell don't
take any of their input seriously when you've got David Koenigsberg
behind every major SOS effort.
You're so deluded that you don't even realize that the SOS fan
movement has been reduced to a farce at all levels. All of your
supporters go to your website for information... not because they
expect SOS to deliver more dubbed Sailor Moon episodes to them, but
because David's got you lined up with some decent contacts that will
toss an occasional bone of info your way.
SOS is now an information site. You've alienated everyone else
outside of your little insider circle of 'people who know more than
the rest of us' to make any kind of rallying of fan support an
exercise in futility and you don't even realize it... and that's the
sad thing. The results from your Irwin procott were disappointing for
a reason... it wasn't just some anomaly.
Nobody can take your little calls for action seriously any
more. You've been stringing along people like a kite with a string of
petitions and procotts without any kind of interaction or input on
their part... and no tangible results on your end aside from the
colorful 'maybe we helped' comments which you admit are designed to
keep them plugging away.
You've soured the concept of the SOS fan movement with the
public. And as much as you might want to believe that it's because of
some negative propoganda by purists or objective thinkers like myself,
you've got nobody to blame but yourselves. You didn't talk with the
people on your petition and you're now light years out of touch with
them.
Nobody even knows what the hell you want any more. You're
clinging to the notion of some Irwin-financed SMS production run or
the promise of DIC's live-action Sailor Moon movie in the year 2000 as
if they'll produce some kind of grand triumph for Mooniekind.
I don't even think you know what the hell you want any more.
Oh yes, it says on the SOS website in bright, bold letters 'we want
the 3 movies and all 200 episodes dubbed and edited and cut and
sugarcoated and all sorts of other great stuff' but you know that'll
never happen.
All I see in the SOS movement these days is a little cluster of
covert Moonies stubbornly maintaining some sort of artificial legacy
who've lost sight of what's really important in life.
As I've said many times in the past, fan movements don't have
the kind of leverage or speak the language of corporate America...
which is ruled by the almighty dollar. The new twist is that you're
not even a fan movement any more... just an information resource with
delusions of grandeur.
If what I say isn't true, then why aren't all of the fans
you're supposedly still in touch with rallying to your defense? Are
they hiding? Do they find me intimidating? Or are they really just
an imaginary audience in your own mind?
===
Brad Lascelle <pa...@negaverse.org> | Marmalade Boy * EVA * Nadesico
ICQ UIN#: 3724914 | Hana Yori Dango * Sailor Moon
| Rurouni Kenshin * Fushigi Yuugi
* Controversy Erupts Over Rurouni Kenshin Manga Developments
Aaron Maupin
<pa...@negaverse.org> wrote:
> And how exactly are you walking along this line, Aaron?
If SOS is told something in confidence we are not going to pass it on -
it's as simple as that.
And yet when we do post a story or ask for fans to do something we always
give out as much "background information" as possible. Look at our recent
story about the Cartoon Network. We have never asked fans to do something
without explaining why we think they should.
> What you don't realize is that you can communicate, deliberate,
> and have some honest communication about potential SOS ideas and
> issues pertaining to the dub and other projects without even delving
> into any of your highly confidential top-security secrets.
Okay, now you're making some sense.
SOS is in contact with the fanbase in the following ways:
1. The SOS email address. Approximately 15 messages a day,
sometimes more, sometimes less. We read ALL our email
and respond whenever we can.
2. The SOS bulletin board. Each post is also mailed to me,
Ming, and others in SOS so we don't have to always
check the webpage.
#2 is definitely more of a two-way street than #1. Maybe we'll have
another SOS IRC chat sometime. And of course for whatever it's worth,
there is my presence in this newsgroup.
> You may say 'there are a number of people on this newsgroup
> that have good heads on their shoulders' but you sure as hell don't
> take any of their input seriously when you've got David Koenigsberg
> behind every major SOS effort.
This newsgroup on the whole has not inspired me to sit down and
communicate SOS' goals and plans. It is not an SOS-friendly environment.
Nowadays all I do here is defend the organization. I'm sure you can
imagine how fun that is.
Who are we supposed to take seriously? The kneejerk flamers who hate the
dub and all associated with it? The people who constantly maintain that
we lie, cheat, steal automobiles, etc., and never provide evidence? As a
matter of fact I do listen to those critics I can take seriously, even
though in my opinion there are less than a handful. (Don't misinterpret
that as a comment on all posters here, but rather only SOS' critics.)
I don't want anyone to think I dislike the criticism. It is often
annoying, but this is the only place where I actually see it. What
bothers me are the people here who should know better, who post insulting
comments just because they don't like the dub or because others are
flaming SOS. That really gets me down.
But you know, I've talked to so many Sailor Moon fans in real life who
support and respect SOS, that it doesn't bother me as much as it used to.
(Comic-Con was simply amazing in that respect.)
> You've soured the concept of the SOS fan movement with the
> public.
I thought we were sugar-coating?
> If what I say isn't true, then why aren't all of the fans
> you're supposedly still in touch with rallying to your defense? Are
> they hiding? Do they find me intimidating?
Besides a few notable exceptions, I don't recall anyone ever leaping to
SOS' defense here. (As an English major I certainly find your posts
intimidating.)
xp...@infomagic.com
maup...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Aaron Maupin) wrote:
> In article <35F7BA0E...@negaverse.org>, Brad Lascelle
> <pa...@negaverse.org> wrote:
>
>
> it's as simple as that.
>
> And yet when we do post a story or ask for fans to do something we always
> give out as much "background information" as possible. Look at our recent
> story about the Cartoon Network. We have never asked fans to do something
> without explaining why we think they should.
>
> > and have some honest communication about potential SOS ideas and
> > issues pertaining to the dub and other projects without even delving
> > into any of your highly confidential top-security secrets.
>
> SOS is in contact with the fanbase in the following ways:
>
> 1. The SOS email address. Approximately 15 messages a day,
> sometimes more, sometimes less. We read ALL our email
> and respond whenever we can.
> 2. The SOS bulletin board. Each post is also mailed to me,
> Ming, and others in SOS so we don't have to always
> check the webpage.
>
> #2 is definitely more of a two-way street than #1. Maybe we'll have
> another SOS IRC chat sometime. And of course for whatever it's worth,
> there is my presence in this newsgroup.
>
> > that have good heads on their shoulders' but you sure as hell don't
> > take any of their input seriously when you've got David Koenigsberg
> > behind every major SOS effort.
>
> communicate SOS' goals and plans. It is not an SOS-friendly environment.
> Nowadays all I do here is defend the organization. I'm sure you can
> imagine how fun that is.
> Who are we supposed to take seriously? The kneejerk flamers who hate the
> dub and all associated with it? The people who constantly maintain that
> we lie, cheat, steal automobiles, etc., and never provide evidence? As a
> matter of fact I do listen to those critics I can take seriously, even
> though in my opinion there are less than a handful. (Don't misinterpret
> that as a comment on all posters here, but rather only SOS' critics.)
Ohh, does that mean you don't take me seriously? Hmm.. well, I don't take you
seriously, so I guess that makes it all fair.
> I don't want anyone to think I dislike the criticism. It is often
> annoying, but this is the only place where I actually see it. What
> bothers me are the people here who should know better, who post insulting
> comments just because they don't like the dub or because others are
> flaming SOS. That really gets me down.
>
> But you know, I've talked to so many Sailor Moon fans in real life who
> support and respect SOS, that it doesn't bother me as much as it used to.
> (Comic-Con was simply amazing in that respect.)
>
> > You've soured the concept of the SOS fan movement with the
> > public.
>
> I thought we were sugar-coating?
>
> > If what I say isn't true, then why aren't all of the fans
> > you're supposedly still in touch with rallying to your defense? Are
> > they hiding? Do they find me intimidating?
>
> Besides a few notable exceptions, I don't recall anyone ever leaping to
> SOS' defense here. (As an English major I certainly find your posts
> intimidating.)
Funny, that.. if everyone wrote as "badly" as Brad, I think half of the net
would faint in disbelief.. and I wouldn't have expected such insults from
you. Ming or Ditchdigger, certainly, but not you.
> Aaron Maupin
>
> / maup...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu
> / Site Supervisor of the 18th Ave. Lab
Brad Lascelle
> And yet when we do post a story or ask for fans to do something we
> always give out as much "background information" as possible. Look
> at our recent story about the Cartoon Network. We have never asked
> fans to do something without explaining why we think they should.
Oh I never said that you didn't. You never fail to do a
considerable job of reinforcing your endeavours with all sorts of
detailed industry information and skewed logic as to why said movement
will contribute a tangible impact towards whatever end you're pursuing
at that time.
If anything, you have a double-standard in place. Most of the
time your supporting info is extensive and detailed to the point where
you'd be talking over the heads of people if you really considered
them to be incapable of offering any direct input into SOS party
objectives because they don't know as much about the industry as 'the
inner circle'.
If they can absorb and understand the wealth of detailed
information on your website, then they're certainly capable of
providing a productive and worthwhile contribution to any party
discussion pertaining to your future initiatives... perhaps offering
some differing and contrasting opinions for consideration than those
always accepted and put into action by David Koenigsberg.
That's just the thing... you don't have a problem explaining
your actions once you undertake them but you do have a problem
involving the fans you 'supposedly represent' in the decision making
process. A problem which you've never explained in full detail aside
from your tried and true fallback claim of 'we're privy to lots and
lots of confidential information because we're special' line.
Speaking of which, why in the world would Susan Jaget engage
Scott Irwin about investing in ad space within Mixxzine if they didn't
have a U.S. Mass Market distribution license? Were they going to buy
ad copy to promote direct order sales through their website? Seems
like a trivial thing to entertain if that's all you'd have to offer.
> SOS is in contact with the fanbase in the following ways:
> 1. The SOS email address. Approximately 15 messages a day,
> sometimes more, sometimes less. We read ALL our email and respond
> whenever we can.
Not good enough... you can simply ignore the mail you don't
wish to reply to because it doesn't fall in line with party policy or
the objectives of David Koenigsberg and your 'inner circle'.
There is no opportunity for public deliberation or commentary
on any ideas or suggestions raised in E-Mail that you receive. And
decisions on party initiatives have never taken any fan comments or
concerns raised in E-Mail as any kind of notable factor.
You do what you please. Legitimate fan organizations require
visable fan input and consideration. You do not have that.
> 2. The SOS bulletin board. Each post is also mailed to me, Ming,
> and others in SOS so we don't have to always check the webpage.
Judging from the layout of your website, nobody new to SOS
could even tell at first glance that an SOS bulletin board site
actually exists. Two-way street possibly, but you sure aren't eager
to draw any attention to it.
And judging from your response, evidently the SOS Action List
is no longer in operation as you didn't even acknowledge it.
SOS IRC chats are moderated... once again you're only obligated
to answer to questions which are SOS-friendly, non-complex, and only
pertaining to courses of action you've already set into motion.
Furthermore, the most notable SOS IRC chat of all time... the
pre-poptart frenzy back on December 13th, 1996... was more of an
exercise in dick stroking and back rubbing than anything else.
> This newsgroup on the whole has not inspired me to sit down and
> communicate SOS' goals and plans. It is not an SOS-friendly
> environment. Nowadays all I do here is defend the organization. I'm
> sure you can imagine how fun that is.
It's nice to know that you only communicate goals and plans in
environments that are SOS-friendly and thus will not contest or
challenge any of your ideas in the least. Heaven forbid that would
happen and a Koenigsberg endeavour would get grounded due to a reality
check or something.
I suppose you would condone throwing people out of said
SOS-friendly environments for offering counter-opinions or raising
critical questions which don't stride the 'inner circle' party line.
Heaven forbid we should have some accountability and
responsibility for a change. Mixx seems to have the same idea. Who
the hell needs free speech? Who the hell needs to respect one's
supporters... particularly if they're anime enthusiasts?
"They watch little cartoon shows and buy comic books so they
don't know any better. We can sneak any bait and switch movements
past them. We can decide what company they should support or procott.
They won't know any better. They don't deserve any better. They're
just a tool for us to exploit for our corporate financial gain or to
maintain the myth of our little fan legacy movement."
Here's something to chew on. This forum hasn't exactly ever
been a Brad-friendly environment, either. I still hold the personal
record for most death threats in a subject header in this newsgroup.
But I've never failed to explain myself, foster discussion, consider
opinions, or respect the fan community for one second.
The funny thing is... I haven't had to be accountable to a
customer base or a group of supporters whom I claim to represent.
I've only had to be accountable to myself.
And there are a CONSIDERABLE number of people in this newsgroup
and elsewhere online who feel and treat each other the same way...
whether they've ever cared for the dub or not.
> Who are we supposed to take seriously? The kneejerk flamers who hate
> the dub and all associated with it? The people who constantly
> maintain that we lie, cheat, steal automobiles, etc., and never
> provide evidence? As a matter of fact I do listen to those critics I
> can take seriously, even though in my opinion there are less than a
> handful.
Don't worry, Aaron... there are less than a handful of people
who take SOS seriously, as well. It's sort of a constant barometer.
If you take people seriously, they'll take you seriously in kind.
It's a pretty simple rule to follow, really.
> I don't want anyone to think I dislike the criticism. It is often
> annoying, but this is the only place where I actually see it.
Well, seeing how the only other forums in which SOS is
discussed are SOS-friendly as a rule... where fans don't play a role
in the decision making process whatsoever... I could see where that
would numb the 'ole noggin. ^_^
> What bothers me are the people here who should know better, who post
> insulting comments just because they don't like the dub or because
> others are flaming SOS. That really gets me down.
<laughs> After over 30 months of dealing with terminal grumpy
gusses and purists like Xplo, you're STILL not desensitized to their
comments? Yikes, that's like the ONE thing you shouldn't take
seriously. Complaints about dubs from people who don't watch dubs.
I can see you've got your priorities straight.
> But you know, I've talked to so many Sailor Moon fans in real life
> who support and respect SOS, that it doesn't bother me as much as it
> used to. (Comic-Con was simply amazing in that respect.)
Well, I'm very happy for you then. When I meet and talk to
fellow anime enthusiasts in person, the furthest thing from my mind is
seeking support and adulation.
Besides, who the heck would go to an anime convention and start
lecturing you and questioning your policies? Hell, even I'd probably
exchange a warm hello with you and check out your haul of merchandise.
They're about as laid-back as environments get... unless you're an
organizer or losing your place in a Takeuchi autograph line or
something.
And isn't THIS real life? I mean, c'mon... the 'Net isn't some
cyberfantasyland with no bearing in the real world. Talking behind
the security of a keyboard and some fiber optic line or not... this is
STILL real life. It's not pretend. It only becomes pretend when you
take on a separate identity like Ditchdigger or Scott Adams or
something.
> Besides a few notable exceptions, I don't recall anyone ever leaping
> to SOS' defense here.
Hmmm... there couldn't be a reason for that, could there?
Nah... we probably just don't get enough poptarts in our diet
to see the 'light'.
===
Brad Lascelle <pa...@negaverse.org> | Marmalade Boy * EVA * Nadesico
ICQ UIN#: 3724914 | Hana Yori Dango * Sailor Moon
| Rurouni Kenshin * Fushigi Yuugi
* Eye On Mixx Website Launches At members.tripod.com/~eyeonmixx/ As
Controversy Shifts Into Uncharted Territory With The 'New' Mixxzine
Look Debuting In Issue 2-2... Due In Stores Shortly