Moral Lessons from Sailor Moon
noit...@my-dejanews.com
it causes me. I disagree often, but it causes me to think why.
I thought about the end of the first season. She wishes she could live a
normal life. This causes her to forget everything. This is quite selfish,
really, and dangerous. "He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it" is
the proverb. We must not think for just ourselves. Great power is great
responsibility. Also, we are largely what our experiences have made us, and
taking that away is denying our identity.
Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena. When did she
make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent loss? It
seems like she is being chaperoned by them, they take all her lumps defending
her, so she can triumph and take all the credit. Not much of a leader that
you have to drag around about a third of the time. Also, one thing I do not
like is he being called a "soldier." I cannot think of a more inappropriate
title, friends.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Latimer84
Minako is heh heh heh ;). You have to see the Japanese version to compare and I
highly recommend it!
>
>I find it interesting just seeing Sailor Moon for just the moral stimulation
>it causes me. I disagree often, but it causes me to think why.
>
> I thought about the end of the first season. She wishes she could live a
>normal life. This causes her to forget everything. This is quite selfish,
>really, and dangerous. "He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat
it" is
>the proverb. We must not think for just ourselves. Great power is great
>responsibility. Also, we are largely what our experiences have made us, and
>taking that away is denying our identity.
>
>Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena. When did she
>make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent loss? It
>seems like she is being chaperoned by them, they take all her lumps defending
>her, so she can triumph and take all the credit. Not much of a leader that
>you have to drag around about a third of the time. Also, one thing I do not
>like is he being called a "soldier." I cannot think of a more inappropriate
>title, friends.
-Geoff
Lati...@aol.com
"Nous allons!"
Andrea Doolan
noit...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> I thought about the end of the first season. She wishes she could live a
> normal life. This causes her to forget everything. This is quite selfish,
> really, and dangerous. "He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it" is
> the proverb. We must not think for just ourselves. Great power is great
> responsibility. Also, we are largely what our experiences have made us, and
> taking that away is denying our identity.
To her credit, she thought she was finished with evil people at the
time. How was she supposed to know she would have to fight <counts> at
least 9 more major battles in her life time? She was only 14 years old,
all her friends were dead, and she had just killed the man whom she
loved most in the world. Her request wasn't that unreasonable.
Though this is an example of how she matures in the series. I seriously
doubt she would have even considered such an action after the battle
with Galaxia.
> Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena. When did she
> make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent loss?
On the part of Serena, maybe, but not on the part of Usagi. If you want
to see a sacrifice, watch the R movie. Granted, it wasn't a permanent
loss, but she was completely willing to give up her own life for the
lives of her friends. She has done so on many occasions. Actually, she
gives so many sacrifices in the series it's hard to list all of them.
Going to fight Master Pharaoh 90, protecting Chibiusa on countless
occasions, and going to rescue Mamoru from Neherenia are just a few.
> It
> seems like she is being chaperoned by them, they take all her lumps defending
> her, so she can triumph and take all the credit. Not much of a leader that
> you have to drag around about a third of the time.
Um, it's the Inner Senshi's *job* to protect the princess, so of course
they're going to defend her. They're actually a very effective team.
Sailormoon's fighting ability increases greatly over the course of the
series. Watching ep 126 should be proof of that.
> Also, one thing I do not
> like is he being called a "soldier." I cannot think of a more inappropriate
> title, friends.
Doushite? Watching ep 125 ought to change your mind. :)
~~Andrea Doolan
defending the girl with the biggest, purist, most loving heart.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| Otaku of Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon * | aj...@king.igs.net |
|Marmalade Boy * Magic Knight Rayearth * |Proud resident of Canada!|
|Fushigi Yuugi * Nurse Angel Ririka SOS *|"There is always hope and|
| Fan of Star Trek * X-Files * ReBoot * |rebirth." - Sailor Saturn|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pamela Jo Reamer
> normal life. This causes her to forget everything.
No, that did not cause her to forget everything. Her memory, as well as
the other scouts' memories were all lost after the battle. It wasn't
their choice, or decision.
>This is quite selfish,
> really, and dangerous.
So any person with amnesia is selfish?
> Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena. When did she
> make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent loss?
How was she to know that it wasn't going to be permanent? In the
original she dies. How could she possible know that she would be
reincarnated?
>Also, one thing I do not
> like is he being called a "soldier." I cannot think of a more inappropriate
> title, friends.
Um, she's battling evil. Soldiers do battle. Hence her being called a
soldier.
Sailor Sun
~Soldiers don't have to wear cammoflauge... They can also where short
miniskirts. ^_^~
noit...@my-dejanews.com
Andrea Doolan <aj...@king.igs.net> wrote:
> *SPOILER* warning...
> > I thought about the end of the first season. She wishes she could live a
> > really, and dangerous. "He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it" is
> > the proverb. We must not think for just ourselves. Great power is great
> > responsibility. Also, we are largely what our experiences have made us, and
> > taking that away is denying our identity.
>
> To her credit, she thought she was finished with evil people at the
> time. How was she supposed to know she would have to fight <counts> at
> least 9 more major battles in her life time? She was only 14 years old,
> all her friends were dead, and she had just killed the man whom she
> loved most in the world. Her request wasn't that unreasonable.
But it is also selfish, and nearsighted. If it were not for Luna and
Artemis, it would be end of story.
> Though this is an example of how she matures in the series. I seriously
> doubt she would have even considered such an action after the battle
> with Galaxia.
Interesting. That increases my respect for her, then.
> > Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena. When did she
> > make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent loss?
>
> On the part of Serena, maybe, but not on the part of Usagi. If you want
> to see a sacrifice, watch the R movie. Granted, it wasn't a permanent
> loss, but she was completely willing to give up her own life for the
> lives of her friends. She has done so on many occasions. Actually, she
> gives so many sacrifices in the series it's hard to list all of them.
> Going to fight Master Pharaoh 90, protecting Chibiusa on countless
> occasions, and going to rescue Mamoru from Neherenia are just a few.
Yes, but always willing and never required does not add up. The law of
averages says she follow through eventuallly, yet it never happens.
> > It
> > seems like she is being chaperoned by them, they take all her lumps defending
> > her, so she can triumph and take all the credit. Not much of a leader that
> > you have to drag around about a third of the time.
>
> Um, it's the Inner Senshi's *job* to protect the princess, so of course
> they're going to defend her. They're actually a very effective team.
> Sailormoon's fighting ability increases greatly over the course of the
> series. Watching ep 126 should be proof of that.
Still, it seems they are more heroic then her most of the time.
> > Also, one thing I do not
> > like is he being called a "soldier." I cannot think of a more inappropriate
> > title, friends.
>
> Doushite? Watching ep 125 ought to change your mind. :)
What happens there?
noit...@my-dejanews.com
lati...@aol.com (Latimer84) wrote:
> Well, Serena isn't all that great, but Usagi is (and she's not the leader,
> Minako is heh heh heh ;). You have to see the Japanese version to compare and I
> highly recommend it!
Artemis and Luna have acted like parents in the first two episodes of season
2. They are the ones with the brains, and the real driving force. Where is
the good example of Serena? Where is her contribution? She seems to only
give at the most critical instances, yet is half othe time at least taking
more then giving.
Frank White
>
>I find it interesting just seeing Sailor Moon for just the moral stimulation
>it causes me. I disagree often, but it causes me to think why.
>
>normal life. This causes her to forget everything. This is quite selfish,
>really, and dangerous. "He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it" is
>the proverb. We must not think for just ourselves. Great power is great
>responsibility. Also, we are largely what our experiences have made us, and
>taking that away is denying our identity.
I'm a little confused here. In the NA version, Serena doesn't make this
wish, it is a side effect of using the Silver Crystal that wipes
everyone's memories. In the Japanese version, Usagi doesn't really
make a wish, either, just a sad (I mean, REALLY sad: If the tears
haven't been flowing before, this always does it) little speech about
how it is the normal things in life she wants back: A curtain flapping
in the breeze, the sight of a party dress through a window, talking
with her friends. Given that at the time she makes the speech she
is dying besides the Silver Crystal and probably doesn't realize
that it still has the power to do what she wants, I don't think it can be
considered a deliberate wish because she's not making it with the idea
it will be granted. She is just singing her death song, so to speak.
If she HAD known she could do this, I am VERY sure she would have
asked for everything back in a way that wouldn't have involved
losing her memory. Because I KNOW she wouldn't want to give up
the Senshi OR Mamoru, even for a normal life.
>Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena. When did she
>make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent loss? It
>seems like she is being chaperoned by them, they take all her lumps defending
>her, so she can triumph and take all the credit. Not much of a leader that
>you have to drag around about a third of the time. Also, one thing I do not
>like is her being called a "soldier." I cannot think of a more inappropriate
>title, friends.
OK, let's start at the beginning.
The problem here is that there are two different people we are talking
about. Serena is the NA version of Sailor Moon, and by rewriting her
dialogue, editing her scenes, and changing elements of the plot, DiC
made her much weaker than the original version, Usagi. I can't
defend Serena very well because, to a large degree, everything you
complain about is true. But I can - and will - defend Usagi.
Think of the first season of SM as 'The Hero, discovered". Both by
others and by herself. Usagi starts out a whiny crybaby. Definately
not a hero. BUT - and this is the big thing - she develops as time
goes on. With the Senshi and Tuxedo Kamen to help and protect her -
and, when necessary, drag her and shove her forward - she takes
babysteps forward until she comes to understand her own strength,
and to be willing to use it. When her friends die in episodes 45/46
she collapses, yes: But she also gets back up and continues the
fight, after a bit. Alone. With no credit or glory to be won,
just more fighting and pain to be endured so that her friends'
deaths won't be in vain.
She grows even stronger in later episodes, so that by the time the
200th one rolls around, in some ways she's the same whiny clutz
from episode 1, but in other ways you would hardly recognize her.
And as for sacrifices: End of the first season, Usagi walks out onto
the ice to confront Beryl knowing that win or lose she is going to die.
We know - and SHE knows - that using the Silver Crystal at full power
drains the life force of the person wielding it; that's what killed
Queen Serenity. Usagi also knows that nothing less than full power
will stop Beryl. So she's dead. Period.
But this fearful, bitter knowledge doesn't stop her. She still goes
out, head held high, to defend a world where trust, love, and
friendship are possible.
What more do you want in a hero?
Now, you can argue that because she doesn't die from this, or from
any of the other, similar situations she winds up in - using the
Silver Crystal against Wise Man at the end of Season R, deliberately
walking into a deathtrap in episode 101 to save Mamoru, diving into
Pharoah 90 to try to rescue Hotaru - that such actions are
meaningless. But the point is, although WE the viewers know she
is not going to die, SHE, Usagi, does NOT! WE know the show goes
on; she is a character in the show, and has no such knowledge of
her own immortality. If you wait in the garden of Gethsemani in
terror of the dawn because of what you think it will bring, and
it comes and nothing happens, does that mean your terror and
suffering never took place?
And if you don't like the word 'soldier', how about 'protector'?
Which is closer to what she is, anyway.
FW
Clarise451
>averages says she follow through eventuallly, yet it never happens.
However, the law of anime aimed at 9-year-old girls says that if the heroine
dies, the show ends, and if the show ends, no more merchandise, and no more
merchandise=no more money. (Well, of course they can make money off the old
merchandise, but they would never have been able to sell a Twinkle Pegasus if
the show ended in S.) And, I might add, her friends don't make any permanent
sacrifices either. I find it very reassuring to watch a show where I know that
no matter how bad it seems, the good guys are eventually going to come out
alive and happy. She does go through a *great* deal of suffering at certain
points for her friends though...
Usagi is a very moral person. She has a very pure heart, she loves her friends
very dearly and befriended them when no one else would. She sticks with her
duty for five years when all she wants to do is play at the arcade, shop, and
hang out with guys. Even though she wishes she never had to fight again
*once*, she never again went back. That's part of her character development
over the course of the series. She has tremendous faith in all people, and
even changes some villains to the good side with her purity.
And of course there is her motto in S that put Usagi at the very top of my
favorite-characters list: (paraphrased) You can save the world without
sacrificing anyone. And you must at least try.
<snip>
>> Doushite? Watching ep 125 ought to change your mind. :)
>What happens there?
Spoiler for those who don't want to know...
I hope that's sufficient....
Hotaru has been turned into the evil Mistress 9 and Sailor Neptune and Sailor
Uranus try to destroy her because it's the only way of saving the world.
Sailor Moon throws herself in front of the attacks to save Hotaru, whose spirit
she believes is still alive. Uranus and Neptune are very angry at
her...Believing that it might restore Hotaru to her sweet old self, Sailor Moon
gives Mistress 9 the Holy Grail. But Mistress 9 uses the Holy Grail to..I
can't really understand this part...make really big explosions. And I think
help Pharaoh 90 get to Earth. (Which would destroy the Earth). Professor
Tomoe takes Mistress 9 in his arms...trying to let Hotaru's spirit break
free...The spirits of Hotaru and Mistress 9 fight, but eventually it is Hotaru
that wins out...she transforms into a ghostly image of Sailor Saturn and
returns Chibi-Usa's pure heart crystal to her. Meanwhile Pharaoh 90 is about
to get to Earth and Sailor Moon wants to stop it. Despite Sailor Moon's
protests, Sailor Saturn goes to fight Pharaoh 90, knowing that only she can.
Sailor Moon tries to transform into Super Sailor Moon to help Sailor Saturn,
but she can't...and then all the senshi combine their energy, she finally
transfoms and goes in after Hotaru...when it is all over, all the senshi look
like they've been run over...and there's Super Sailor Moon as battered as any
of them, standing there with baby Hotaru in her arms.
"Beyond the beyond
where the willows weep
and the whirlpools sleep
you'll find me
And the nightmare rides on"-Billy Corgan
ICQ-me! 12816567
Moonie Code(1.3.13) SM:5+ F:sMo>:vZoKu:aNaUm O:d-s-o-a+h P:a :s+:w
:f-:eGBrg:hBlBr+:cW:x :r+|-
noit...@my-dejanews.com
> > I thought about the end of the first season. She wishes she could live a
> > normal life. This causes her to forget everything.
>
> the other scouts' memories were all lost after the battle. It wasn't
> their choice, or decision.
I thought it was Sailor Moon's choice. If not, then I have nothing to
criticize. I think the reluctance on the part of Artemis and Luna
understandable.
> >This is quite selfish,
> > really, and dangerous.
>
> So any person with amnesia is selfish?
A choice to intentionally lose some of your memory like that.
> > Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena. When did she
> > make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent loss?
>
> How was she to know that it wasn't going to be permanent? In the
> original she dies. How could she possible know that she would be
> reincarnated?
It is not the same for the viewers. We do not get to see long-term aftermath.
> >Also, one thing I do not
> > like is he being called a "soldier." I cannot think of a more inappropriate
> > title, friends.
>
> Um, she's battling evil. Soldiers do battle. Hence her being called a
> soldier.
A good soldier does not meddle in civilian affairs, friend.
noit...@my-dejanews.com
> >I find it interesting just seeing Sailor Moon for just the moral stimulation
> >it causes me. I disagree often, but it causes me to think why.
> >
> >really, and dangerous. "He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it" is
> >the proverb. We must not think for just ourselves. Great power is great
> >responsibility. Also, we are largely what our experiences have made us, and
> >taking that away is denying our identity.
>
> I'm a little confused here. In the NA version, Serena doesn't make this
> wish, it is a side effect of using the Silver Crystal that wipes
> everyone's memories. In the Japanese version, Usagi doesn't really
> make a wish, either, just a sad (I mean, REALLY sad: If the tears
> haven't been flowing before, this always does it) little speech about
> how it is the normal things in life she wants back: A curtain flapping
> in the breeze, the sight of a party dress through a window, talking
> with her friends. Given that at the time she makes the speech she
> is dying besides the Silver Crystal and probably doesn't realize
> that it still has the power to do what she wants, I don't think it can be
> considered a deliberate wish because she's not making it with the idea
> it will be granted. She is just singing her death song, so to speak.
Good. Unintentional, and very sad. I like it, I like. With great humor,
there deserves great sorrow, to make both complete.
> If she HAD known she could do this, I am VERY sure she would have
> asked for everything back in a way that wouldn't have involved
> losing her memory. Because I KNOW she wouldn't want to give up
> the Senshi OR Mamoru, even for a normal life.
I agree. It makes more sense, but I can understand the reluctance of Luna
and Artemis.
> >Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena. When did she
> >make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent loss? It
> >seems like she is being chaperoned by them, they take all her lumps defending
> >her, so she can triumph and take all the credit. Not much of a leader that
> >you have to drag around about a third of the time. Also, one thing I do not
> >like is her being called a "soldier." I cannot think of a more inappropriate
> >title, friends.
>
> OK, let's start at the beginning.
>
> The problem here is that there are two different people we are talking
> about. Serena is the NA version of Sailor Moon, and by rewriting her
> dialogue, editing her scenes, and changing elements of the plot, DiC
> made her much weaker than the original version, Usagi. I can't
> defend Serena very well because, to a large degree, everything you
> complain about is true. But I can - and will - defend Usagi.
Fine.
> Think of the first season of SM as 'The Hero, discovered". Both by
> others and by herself. Usagi starts out a whiny crybaby. Definately
> not a hero. BUT - and this is the big thing - she develops as time
> goes on. With the Senshi and Tuxedo Kamen to help and protect her -
> and, when necessary, drag her and shove her forward - she takes
> babysteps forward until she comes to understand her own strength,
> and to be willing to use it. When her friends die in episodes 45/46
> she collapses, yes: But she also gets back up and continues the
> fight, after a bit. Alone. With no credit or glory to be won,
> just more fighting and pain to be endured so that her friends'
> deaths won't be in vain.
"The blood of the martyrs shall water the fields of France." That is the
right attitude.
> She grows even stronger in later episodes, so that by the time the
> 200th one rolls around, in some ways she's the same whiny clutz
> from episode 1, but in other ways you would hardly recognize her.
Some examples of how so? Now-and-then compasrisons?
> And as for sacrifices: End of the first season, Usagi walks out onto
> the ice to confront Beryl knowing that win or lose she is going to die.
> We know - and SHE knows - that using the Silver Crystal at full power
> drains the life force of the person wielding it; that's what killed
> Queen Serenity. Usagi also knows that nothing less than full power
> will stop Beryl. So she's dead. Period.
>
> But this fearful, bitter knowledge doesn't stop her. She still goes
> out, head held high, to defend a world where trust, love, and
> friendship are possible.
>
> What more do you want in a hero?
Nothing, but she is seldom like this. I mean, on some days she would be
unwilling or break down. Am mark of a good hero is seeing how far one can
keep from falling over the edge, yet she falls over and over again.
> Now, you can argue that because she doesn't die from this, or from
> any of the other, similar situations she winds up in - using the
> Silver Crystal against Wise Man at the end of Season R, deliberately
> walking into a deathtrap in episode 101 to save Mamoru, diving into
> Pharoah 90 to try to rescue Hotaru - that such actions are
> meaningless. But the point is, although WE the viewers know she
> is not going to die, SHE, Usagi, does NOT! WE know the show goes
> on; she is a character in the show, and has no such knowledge of
> her own immortality. If you wait in the garden of Gethsemani in
> terror of the dawn because of what you think it will bring, and
> it comes and nothing happens, does that mean your terror and
> suffering never took place?
What I am saying is that it could be done to place more fear and respect for
the consequences without loopholes. In Yamato, important characters die
regularly. It sounds like in the later seasons it addressed my objections.
> And if you don't like the word 'soldier', how about 'protector'?
> Which is closer to what she is, anyway.
Much better, friend.
noit...@my-dejanews.com
clari...@aol.com (Clarise451) wrote:
> However, the law of anime aimed at 9-year-old girls says that if the heroine
> dies, the show ends, and if the show ends, no more merchandise, and no more
> merchandise=no more money. (Well, of course they can make money off the old
> merchandise, but they would never have been able to sell a Twinkle Pegasus if
> the show ended in S.) And, I might add, her friends don't make any permanent
> sacrifices either. I find it very reassuring to watch a show where I know that
> no matter how bad it seems, the good guys are eventually going to come out
> alive and happy. She does go through a *great* deal of suffering at certain
> points for her friends though...
None loses a limb or dies a lingering death. It fails to capture the sadness
of it,I fear. They could just find characters to knock off. One guy died in
the first season. How about a scout get in a serious auto accident or
something? How about a scar on somone's face?
> Usagi is a very moral person. She has a very pure heart, she loves her friends
> very dearly and befriended them when no one else would. She sticks with her
> duty for five years when all she wants to do is play at the arcade, shop, and
> hang out with guys. Even though she wishes she never had to fight again
> *once*, she never again went back. That's part of her character development
> over the course of the series. She has tremendous faith in all people, and
> even changes some villains to the good side with her purity.
> And of course there is her motto in S that put Usagi at the very top of my
> favorite-characters list: (paraphrased) You can save the world without
> sacrificing anyone. And you must at least try.
True, but it inevitably does in this old world of ours.
> I hope that's sufficient....
> Hotaru has been turned into the evil Mistress 9 and Sailor Neptune and Sailor
> Uranus try to destroy her because it's the only way of saving the world.
> Sailor Moon throws herself in front of the attacks to save Hotaru, whose spirit
> she believes is still alive. Uranus and Neptune are very angry at
> her...Believing that it might restore Hotaru to her sweet old self, Sailor Moon
> gives Mistress 9 the Holy Grail. But Mistress 9 uses the Holy Grail to..I
> can't really understand this part...make really big explosions. And I think
> help Pharaoh 90 get to Earth. (Which would destroy the Earth). Professor
> Tomoe takes Mistress 9 in his arms...trying to let Hotaru's spirit break
> free...The spirits of Hotaru and Mistress 9 fight, but eventually it is Hotaru
> that wins out...she transforms into a ghostly image of Sailor Saturn and
> returns Chibi-Usa's pure heart crystal to her. Meanwhile Pharaoh 90 is about
> to get to Earth and Sailor Moon wants to stop it. Despite Sailor Moon's
> protests, Sailor Saturn goes to fight Pharaoh 90, knowing that only she can.
> Sailor Moon tries to transform into Super Sailor Moon to help Sailor Saturn,
> but she can't...and then all the senshi combine their energy, she finally
> transfoms and goes in after Hotaru...when it is all over, all the senshi look
> like they've been run over...and there's Super Sailor Moon as battered as any
> of them, standing there with baby Hotaru in her arms.
Courage. Very admirable. I hope by this point that she is above crying during
fights.
Andy Hock
>
> I find it interesting just seeing Sailor Moon for just the moral stimulation
> it causes me. I disagree often, but it causes me to think why.
>
> I thought about the end of the first season. She wishes she could live a
> normal life. This causes her to forget everything. This is quite selfish,
> really, and dangerous. "He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it" is
> the proverb. We must not think for just ourselves. Great power is great
> responsibility. Also, we are largely what our experiences have made us, and
> taking that away is denying our identity.
Her deepest desire was for tragedy never to have happened.
What's so bad about that? I think it's a perfectly natural
human response, especially considering her age. This isn't
Rambo we're talking about here, it's Usagi. She doesn't
get excited by carnage and have a subconsious death-wish.
> Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena. When did she
> make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent loss?
This point seems sort of irrelevant to me. She didn't know
that the loss wouldn't be permanent. If someone runs into
a burning building to save a life, is their courage somehow
diminished if they make it out alive and unscarred? In all
the season finales, Usagi is willing to die to save others.
> It
> seems like she is being chaperoned by them, they take all her lumps defending
> her, so she can triumph and take all the credit. Not much of a leader that
> you have to drag around about a third of the time. Also, one thing I do not
> like is he being called a "soldier." I cannot think of a more inappropriate
> title, friends.
In one sense, I agree. The word "soldier" implies
membership in some sort of organized military, and
the senshi are a strictly paramilitary operation.
I personally like the term "warrior" better. But
in balance, in the context of Sailor Moon, the
Japanese translated "senshi" as "soldier". Maybe
it's a cultural difference, since the Japanese kept
a feudal system longer than we did in the west, so
the military might not have been considered to be
so organized.
Andy Hock
Michi-chan
>
> In one sense, I agree. The word "soldier" implies
> membership in some sort of organized military, and
> the senshi are a strictly paramilitary operation.
> I personally like the term "warrior" better. But
> in balance, in the context of Sailor Moon, the
> Japanese translated "senshi" as "soldier". Maybe
> it's a cultural difference, since the Japanese kept
> a feudal system longer than we did in the west, so
> the military might not have been considered to be
> so organized.
I doubt that has anything to do with it. Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon
sounds better than Pretty Warrior Sailor Moon.
--
Michi-chan
z t s u k i n o @ g e o c i t i e s . c o m
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/4940/
Andy Hock
>
> In article <199807281454...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> lati...@aol.com (Latimer84) wrote:
> > Well, Serena isn't all that great, but Usagi is (and she's not the leader,
> > Minako is heh heh heh ;). You have to see the Japanese version to compare and I
> > highly recommend it!
>
> Artemis and Luna have acted like parents in the first two episodes of season
> 2. They are the ones with the brains, and the real driving force. Where is
> the good example of Serena? Where is her contribution? She seems to only
> give at the most critical instances, yet is half othe time at least taking
> more then giving.
I think Andrea was trying to point out the difference
butween the Japanese (JP) and North American (NA)
versions of Sailor Moon. An often-cited example of
this which answers your question is comparing episode
JP-43 (Usagi ga koritsu? Sailor Senshi tachino oogenka)
with its NA counterpart, NA-38 (Fractious Friends).
The dub portrays Serena as a wimp who gets in over her
head, immediately has second thoughts, and ends up
begging for help. The original has Usagi bravely
carrying out a dangerous mission that she had volunteered
for, and insisting that the others DON'T save her.
It's amazing how you can take the same video footage
and change the dialog enough to completely reverse
the meaning, at times.
Andy Hock
Clarise451
>of it,I fear. They could just find characters to knock off. One guy died in
>the first season. How about a scout get in a serious auto accident or
>something? How about a scar on somone's face?
I've seen some movies (that I really regretted seeing) with lots of death and
not a bit of sadness. Sailor Moon has lots of sadness at times and not much
death. Maybe it's just me, but I say that a mist of rain, a sad instrumental,
and the anticipation of something tragic make me feel much sadder than the kind
of mindless carnage I see in some movies.
The entire story of Sailor Moon is set a little bit apart from the real
world--just like most Hollywood summer movies are set in a version of the real
world where seventeen explosions in two hours isn't completely implausible,
Sailor Moon is set in a version of the real world where it *isn't* naive and
self-defeating to have faith in people and and exceptional courage.
As a result, I don't think it's always possible or appropriate to draw moral
conclusions from it. I think a person can enjoy the show, even admire Usagi's
qualities in the context of her own little world, without thinking whether her
decisions would apply in the real world. I think most people who've tried that
have found Sailor Neptune and Uranus to be much more moral than Sailor Moon,
because they're willing to make any necessary sacrifices to save the
world--Sailor Moon isn't. If the Talismans story were to happen with the moral
laws of the real world in place, it would be very unlikely that no one would
have to die--it would be Neptune and Uranus who save the world, and Sailor Moon
who foolishly tries to stop them.
<snip some more stuff>
(about episode 125)
>Courage. Very admirable. I hope by this point that she is above crying during
>fights.
>
It depends on whether you mean that silly frightened blubbering that she does a
few times in the early episodes. It isn't. It's in a completely different
context, and her reasons are so much different. She isn't crying for herself,
or if she is, it's only out of anger at herself because she can't transform,
she can't do anything to save poor little Hotaru. She's crying for Hotaru and
the whole world, out of desperation. She screams and screams, "Crisis,
Make-up!" (the phrase that transforms her into Super Sailor Moon) and it isn't
working...and tears begin to appear in her eyes as she keeps on
screaming...man, I have *got* to get that laserdisc...
Incidentally, one of my favorite Usagi moments involves her crying:
spoilers (episode 7 of Stars)
Mamoru's going to Harvard to study, and Usagi accepts it because she knows
it's best for him. She comes to the airport to say goodbye to him, and she
smiles, and then her eyes start filling up with tears...and she says something
like "Oh no...I wanted to wish you goodbye with a smile..." but through her
tears, she's still smiling, because she's happy for Mamoru and she doesn't want
him to have any regrets or feel obligated to stay in Tokyo.
I love the way one can contrast it with the times she cries in the early
episodes of the first season--crying because she's scared or angry and not
caring if she does, versus this very different situation...It's also animated
much better.
Just like me, to reply to two sentences with two pages...oh well. As I said
before, it's impossible to apply the moral laws of the real world to Sailor
Moon, but nonetheless it *is* a very interesting topic.
Andy Hock
>
> What I am saying is that it could be done to place more fear and respect for
> the consequences without loopholes. In Yamato, important characters die
> regularly. It sounds like in the later seasons it addressed my objections.
Yamato is not shoujo. Being aimed at a younger audience,
there is less death in shoujo than shonen anime. But
there are exceptions. Most of the major characters in
Fushigi Yuugi die, and it IS shoujo. So I guess anything
is possible.
Andy Hock
Kelly Paul Graham
noit...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
<6pknv5$rrc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> We must not think for just ourselves. Great power is great
> responsibility. Also, we are largely what our experiences have made us,
and
> taking that away is denying our identity.
>
> Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena. When did she
> make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent loss?
I agree with MOST everything you say here. Save for the "failed
to see sacrifices" part. I guess it just comes to what we view as a
"sacrifice".
All of us live out our days collecting thoughts and memories.
They help shape us, our mind and "heart" (our inner person).
Sacrifices do not have to be physical ('seen") to be real- and
felt. When changes come and sacrifices are made, we feel the pain and
mourne the loss. In Serena's case, "burying" (if I may use the term) the
normal girlhood she would have have. And, accepting all the possibilities
(not all of them pleasant) that may lay ahead.
"Real Life" is like that, too.
Kelly Paul Graham.
Tuxedo Chibi-Luv
> I thought about the end of the first season. She wishes she could live a
> normal life.
Uh, in America, people are taught that living a normal life
is good. People are supposed to get good grades, get
a job, get married and have kids. That's a "normal life".
Do you have a problem with America?
> This causes her to forget everything. This is quite selfish,
> really, and dangerous.
That's nice. Do you have a problem with America?
> "He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it" is
> the proverb. We must not think for just ourselves. Great power is great
> responsibility.
That's nice. Do you have a problem with America?
> Also, we are largely what our experiences have made us, and
> taking that away is denying our identity.
Thanks for sharing your psychological theories with everyone.
Are you going to submit it for publication?
> Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena.
I'm sure you didn't see any.
> Also, one thing I do not
> like is he being called a "soldier." I cannot think of a more inappropriate
> title, friends.
The Japanese seem to have no problems with the Japanese title
for them. Maybe if you learned to speak and hear Japanese fluently,
you'll have no problems with it either.
Kelly Paul Graham
Andy Hock <col...@erinet.com> wrote in article
<35BF40...@erinet.com>...
> noit...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena. When did
she
> > make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent
loss?
>
> This point seems sort of irrelevant to me. She didn't know
> that the loss wouldn't be permanent.
> Andy Hock
>
This is true. In " The Past Returns" she sees that her Mother's
actions cost her
her life. The battle with Beryl, she believed, would demand the same price.
And, in "The Past Returns", we see that Serena has grown sick of
the fighting. She is willing to give up the Silver Imperium Crystal if it
will meen putting an end to the destruction she is seeing. Destruction (and
death) still visit her in "Day of Destiny". Thosee weren't LIVE sailors we
saw with her fighting Beryl.
Serena SAW the costs (the sacrifices), and fought her fears. This
was the real fight with Beryl.
Kelly Paul Graham.
Andrea Doolan
>
> In article <35BE5307...@king.igs.net>,
> Andrea Doolan <aj...@king.igs.net> wrote:
> > *SPOILER* warning...
> > > I thought about the end of the first season. She wishes she could live a
> > > normal life. This causes her to forget everything. This is quite selfish,
> > > really, and dangerous. "He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it" is
> > > the proverb. We must not think for just ourselves. Great power is great
> > > responsibility. Also, we are largely what our experiences have made us, and
> > > taking that away is denying our identity.
> >
> > To her credit, she thought she was finished with evil people at the
> > time. How was she supposed to know she would have to fight <counts> at
> > least 9 more major battles in her life time? She was only 14 years old,
> > all her friends were dead, and she had just killed the man whom she
> > loved most in the world. Her request wasn't that unreasonable.
>
> But it is also selfish, and nearsighted. If it were not for Luna and
> Artemis, it would be end of story.
Luna and Artemis wanted the Senshi to enjoy their time as normal girls.
> > Though this is an example of how she matures in the series. I seriously
> > doubt she would have even considered such an action after the battle
> > with Galaxia.
> Interesting. That increases my respect for her, then.
> > > Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena. When did she
> > > make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent loss?
> >
> > On the part of Serena, maybe, but not on the part of Usagi. If you want
> > to see a sacrifice, watch the R movie. Granted, it wasn't a permanent
> > loss, but she was completely willing to give up her own life for the
> > lives of her friends. She has done so on many occasions. Actually, she
> > gives so many sacrifices in the series it's hard to list all of them.
> > Going to fight Master Pharaoh 90, protecting Chibiusa on countless
> > occasions, and going to rescue Mamoru from Neherenia are just a few.
>
> Yes, but always willing and never required does not add up. The law of
> averages says she follow through eventuallly, yet it never happens.
Well, really, it's not her fault. She's *prepared* to die each time,
it's just that something always saves her. Be that her lover, her
friends or the ginzuishou. Usagi doesn't want to see *anyone* else
hurt. Her entire existence revolves around erasing other people's
pain. She'll do anything in her power to accomplish that goal.
> > > It
> > > seems like she is being chaperoned by them, they take all her lumps defending
> > > her, so she can triumph and take all the credit. Not much of a leader that
> > > you have to drag around about a third of the time.
> >
> > Um, it's the Inner Senshi's *job* to protect the princess, so of course
> > they're going to defend her. They're actually a very effective team.
> > Sailormoon's fighting ability increases greatly over the course of the
> > series. Watching ep 126 should be proof of that.
> Still, it seems they are more heroic then her most of the time.
Sailormoon is equally, if not more heroic than all the Senshi.
Screaming Crisis Make Up, trying desperately to turn into Super
Sailormoon, protecting that poor innocent girl she knows as Hotaru from
death, and wanting to save the world from the Silence. Seems pretty
heroic to me. Just look at the determination in her eyes as she enters
the swirling black ball of evil energy. This is, of course, only one of
many examples.
> > > Also, one thing I do not
> > > like is he being called a "soldier." I cannot think of a more inappropriate
> > > title, friends.
> >
> > Doushite? Watching ep 125 ought to change your mind. :)
> What happens there?
The previously mentioned scene when she went to battle Master Pharaoh 90
(aka swirling black ball of evil energy). It's quite a moving scene,
and a very cool episode.
I don't think it's very fair of you to judge her without you personally
seeing her grow as a character.
~~Andrea Doolan
noit...@my-dejanews.com
clari...@aol.com (Clarise451) wrote:
> I've seen some movies (that I really regretted seeing) with lots of death and
> not a bit of sadness. Sailor Moon has lots of sadness at times and not much
> death. Maybe it's just me, but I say that a mist of rain, a sad instrumental,
> and the anticipation of something tragic make me feel much sadder than the kind
> of mindless carnage I see in some movies.
Good point. I agree entirely there, but I fear there still needs some
visible suffering.
> The entire story of Sailor Moon is set a little bit apart from the real
> world--just like most Hollywood summer movies are set in a version of the real
> world where seventeen explosions in two hours isn't completely implausible,
> Sailor Moon is set in a version of the real world where it *isn't* naive and
> self-defeating to have faith in people and and exceptional courage.
> As a result, I don't think it's always possible or appropriate to draw moral
> conclusions from it.
Probably not, but it can, and has, provided me with things to muse.
I think a person can enjoy the show, even admire Usagi's
> qualities in the context of her own little world, without thinking whether her
> decisions would apply in the real world. I think most people who've tried that
> have found Sailor Neptune and Uranus to be much more moral than Sailor Moon,
> because they're willing to make any necessary sacrifices to save the
> world--Sailor Moon isn't. If the Talismans story were to happen with the moral
> laws of the real world in place, it would be very unlikely that no one would
> have to die--it would be Neptune and Uranus who save the world, and Sailor Moon
Then, in that case, my friend, I should think that the show is teaching bad
moral priorities. It is a themed show, and it is thus saying it is more
important to be in effect selfish because of your own personal feelings. Very
dangerous.
> who foolishly tries to stop them.
Then why not here? Because she is the hero, and the show is talking about
loyalty to friends. There is too much of a good thing.
> (about episode 125)
> >Courage. Very admirable. I hope by this point that she is above crying during
> >fights.
> >
>
> It depends on whether you mean that silly frightened blubbering that she does a
> few times in the early episodes. It isn't. It's in a completely different
> context, and her reasons are so much different. She isn't crying for herself,
> or if she is, it's only out of anger at herself because she can't transform,
> she can't do anything to save poor little Hotaru. She's crying for Hotaru and
> the whole world, out of desperation. She screams and screams, "Crisis,
> Make-up!" (the phrase that transforms her into Super Sailor Moon) and it isn't
> working...and tears begin to appear in her eyes as she keeps on
> screaming...man, I have *got* to get that laserdisc...
That I would like to see.
> Incidentally, one of my favorite Usagi moments involves her crying:
I can fully undrstand tears at times, but she has done it at a drop of a hat.
Crying because you cannot help somone is perfectly fine, as far as I can
tell; it is not unlikely I would do likwise.
> spoilers (episode 7 of Stars)
>
> Mamoru's going to Harvard to study, and Usagi accepts it because she knows
> it's best for him. She comes to the airport to say goodbye to him, and she
> smiles, and then her eyes start filling up with tears...and she says something
> like "Oh no...I wanted to wish you goodbye with a smile..." but through her
> tears, she's still smiling, because she's happy for Mamoru and she doesn't want
> him to have any regrets or feel obligated to stay in Tokyo.
> I love the way one can contrast it with the times she cries in the early
> episodes of the first season--crying because she's scared or angry and not
> caring if she does, versus this very different situation...It's also animated
> much better.
That sounds good. That is her at her best. When she is earnest and honest,
not acting scatter-brained. That is just about only where she acts like a
princess.
> Just like me, to reply to two sentences with two pages...oh well. As I said
> before, it's impossible to apply the moral laws of the real world to Sailor
> Moon, but nonetheless it *is* a very interesting topic.
Perhaps not, but you can learn from it.
noit...@my-dejanews.com
Tuxedo Chibi-Luv <tuxedoc...@uiowa.edu> wrote:
> noit...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > I thought about the end of the first season. She wishes she could live a
> > normal life.
>
> is good. People are supposed to get good grades, get
> a job, get married and have kids. That's a "normal life".
> Do you have a problem with America?
Yes, but it ought not to to be stereotyped and enshrined like that. It might
be quite different person to person. You ought to live life to be who you
are, from a crtain perspective.
> > This causes her to forget everything. This is quite selfish,
> > really, and dangerous.
>
> That's nice. Do you have a problem with America?
She was a princess. That is part of who she is. i have no problem with
America, but I do in discarding, wholesale, good and bad memories alike.
> > "He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it" is
> > the proverb. We must not think for just ourselves. Great power is great
> > responsibility.
>
> That's nice. Do you have a problem with America?
No.
> > Also, we are largely what our experiences have made us, and
> > taking that away is denying our identity.
>
> Thanks for sharing your psychological theories with everyone.
You are welcome.
> Are you going to submit it for publication?
No.
> > Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena.
>
> I'm sure you didn't see any.
I mean any permanent ones. Does any close to her die before the end of the
season or something?
> > Also, one thing I do not
> > like is he being called a "soldier." I cannot think of a more inappropriate
> > title, friends.
>
> The Japanese seem to have no problems with the Japanese title
> for them. Maybe if you learned to speak and hear Japanese fluently,
> you'll have no problems with it either.
A good soldier does not meddle in civilian affairs, and she is a civilian.
The worst combiation.
noit...@my-dejanews.com
"Kelly Paul Graham" <kgr...@wt.net> wrote:
> > > Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena. When did
> she
> > > make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent
> loss?
> >
> > that the loss wouldn't be permanent.
> actions cost her
> her life. The battle with Beryl, she believed, would demand the same price.
> And, in "The Past Returns", we see that Serena has grown sick of
> the fighting. She is willing to give up the Silver Imperium Crystal if it
> will meen putting an end to the destruction she is seeing. Destruction (and
> death) still visit her in "Day of Destiny". Thosee weren't LIVE sailors we
> saw with her fighting Beryl.
> Serena SAW the costs (the sacrifices), and fought her fears. This
> was the real fight with Beryl.
noit...@my-dejanews.com
> Her deepest desire was for tragedy never to have happened.
> What's so bad about that? I think it's a perfectly natural
> human response, especially considering her age. This isn't
> Rambo we're talking about here, it's Usagi. She doesn't
> get excited by carnage and have a subconsious death-wish.
I suppose not. Perhaps if she were less scatterbrained.
> > Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena. When did she
> > make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent loss?
>
> This point seems sort of irrelevant to me. She didn't know
> that the loss wouldn't be permanent. If someone runs into
> a burning building to save a life, is their courage somehow
> diminished if they make it out alive and unscarred? In all
> the season finales, Usagi is willing to die to save others.
What was the price in each intance, and by the way, has the 3rd season of
Sailor Moon been or will be shone in the US?
> > It
> > seems like she is being chaperoned by them, they take all her lumps defending
> > her, so she can triumph and take all the credit. Not much of a leader that
> > you have to drag around about a third of the time. Also, one thing I do not
> > like is he being called a "soldier." I cannot think of a more inappropriate
> > title, friends.
>
> In one sense, I agree. The word "soldier" implies
> membership in some sort of organized military, and
> the senshi are a strictly paramilitary operation.
> I personally like the term "warrior" better. But
> in balance, in the context of Sailor Moon, the
> Japanese translated "senshi" as "soldier". Maybe
> it's a cultural difference, since the Japanese kept
> a feudal system longer than we did in the west, so
> the military might not have been considered to be
> so organized.
A point there.
noit...@my-dejanews.com
Andrea Doolan <aj...@king.igs.net> wrote:
> > > > I thought about the end of the first season. She wishes she could live a
> > > > normal life. This causes her to forget everything. This is quite selfish,
> > > > really, and dangerous. "He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it" is
> > > > the proverb. We must not think for just ourselves. Great power is great
> > > > responsibility. Also, we are largely what our experiences have made us, and
> > > > taking that away is denying our identity.
> > >
> > > To her credit, she thought she was finished with evil people at the
> > > time. How was she supposed to know she would have to fight <counts> at
> > > least 9 more major battles in her life time? She was only 14 years old,
> > > all her friends were dead, and she had just killed the man whom she
> > > loved most in the world. Her request wasn't that unreasonable.
> >
> > But it is also selfish, and nearsighted. If it were not for Luna and
> > Artemis, it would be end of story.
>
> Luna and Artemis wanted the Senshi to enjoy their time as normal girls.
I can uderstand, from their point of view. In their place I would likely
have done the same. It comes from different roles of reponibility.
> Well, really, it's not her fault. She's *prepared* to die each time,
> it's just that something always saves her. Be that her lover, her
> friends or the ginzuishou. Usagi doesn't want to see *anyone* else
> hurt. Her entire existence revolves around erasing other people's
> pain. She'll do anything in her power to accomplish that goal.
That dedication becomes her.
> Sailormoon is equally, if not more heroic than all the Senshi.
> Screaming Crisis Make Up, trying desperately to turn into Super
> Sailormoon, protecting that poor innocent girl she knows as Hotaru from
> death, and wanting to save the world from the Silence. Seems pretty
> heroic to me. Just look at the determination in her eyes as she enters
> the swirling black ball of evil energy. This is, of course, only one of
> many examples.
A lot of what she does in her "normal" life could not be classifiied as
heroic. The reverse, perhaps even.
> > > > Also, one thing I do not
> > > > like is he being called a "soldier." I cannot think of a more inappropriate
> > > > title, friends.
> > >
> > > Doushite? Watching ep 125 ought to change your mind. :)
> > What happens there?
>
> The previously mentioned scene when she went to battle Master Pharaoh 90
> (aka swirling black ball of evil energy). It's quite a moving scene,
> and a very cool episode.
I will keep that in mind.
> I don't think it's very fair of you to judge her without you personally
> seeing her grow as a character.
A fair charge. I have only just reached the second season, so I cannot see
much improvement, and Serena and Darien have never been able to enjoy being
reunited yet, as he was captured by Beryl and they both forgot later. It
seems like their relationship has repeatedly stalled.
noit...@my-dejanews.com
> > responsibility. Also, we are largely what our experiences have made us,
> and
> > taking that away is denying our identity.
> >
> > make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent loss?
>
> to see sacrifices" part. I guess it just comes to what we view as a
> "sacrifice".
> All of us live out our days collecting thoughts and memories.
> They help shape us, our mind and "heart" (our inner person).
> Sacrifices do not have to be physical ('seen") to be real- and
> felt. When changes come and sacrifices are made, we feel the pain and
> mourne the loss. In Serena's case, "burying" (if I may use the term) the
> normal girlhood she would have have. And, accepting all the possibilities
> (not all of them pleasant) that may lay ahead.
> "Real Life" is like that, too.
Perhaps physiical suffering is not necessary for Usgai, but I think for the
sake of the viewers; as we see the frivlousness of life, let us also witness
attrition in play. Let us see that just because we win does not erase the
death and suffering, like it did in the first season. Does the show do that?
Andy Hock
>
> by the way, has the 3rd season of
> Sailor Moon been or will be shone in the US?
It has not. At present, the chances of it ever happening
are just about non-existent. But there are fansubs
of the first two-fifths or so. And the odds of VKLL
finishing fansubbing SMS is just about a certainty.
There's also unsubbed tapes of all of it available
from fansub distributors right now. After all, I've
seen it all, and I live in the US.
Andy Hock
proj...@my-dejanews.com
noit...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <6pm1gs$ja5$2...@news.fsr.net>,
> > >I find it interesting just seeing Sailor Moon for just the moral
stimulation
> > >it causes me. I disagree often, but it causes me to think why.
> > >
> > > I thought about the end of the first season. She wishes she could live a
> > >normal life. This causes her to forget everything. This is quite
selfish,
> > >really, and dangerous. "He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it"
is
> > >the proverb. We must not think for just ourselves. Great power is great
> > >responsibility. Also, we are largely what our experiences have made us,
and
> > >taking that away is denying our identity.
> >
> > I'm a little confused here. In the NA version, Serena doesn't make this
> > wish, it is a side effect of using the Silver Crystal that wipes
> > everyone's memories. In the Japanese version, Usagi doesn't really
> > make a wish, either, just a sad (I mean, REALLY sad: If the tears
> > haven't been flowing before, this always does it) little speech about
> > how it is the normal things in life she wants back: A curtain flapping
> > in the breeze, the sight of a party dress through a window, talking
> > with her friends. Given that at the time she makes the speech she
> > is dying besides the Silver Crystal and probably doesn't realize
> > that it still has the power to do what she wants, I don't think it can be
> > considered a deliberate wish because she's not making it with the idea
> > it will be granted. She is just singing her death song, so to speak.
>
> Good. Unintentional, and very sad. I like it, I like. With great
humor,
> there deserves great sorrow, to make both complete.
>
> > If she HAD known she could do this, I am VERY sure she would have
> > asked for everything back in a way that wouldn't have involved
> > losing her memory. Because I KNOW she wouldn't want to give up
> > the Senshi OR Mamoru, even for a normal life.
>
> I agree. It makes more sense, but I can understand the reluctance of Luna
> and Artemis.
>
> > >Also, I have failed to see sacrifices on the part of Serena. When did she
> > >make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent loss?
It
> > >seems like she is being chaperoned by them, they take all her lumps
defending
> > >her, so she can triumph and take all the credit. Not much of a leader
that
> > >you have to drag around about a third of the time. Also, one thing I do
not
> > >like is her being called a "soldier." I cannot think of a more
inappropriate
> > >title, friends.
series (second part of the Negamoon arc).
> >
> > OK, let's start at the beginning.
> >
> > The problem here is that there are two different people we are talking
> > about. Serena is the NA version of Sailor Moon, and by rewriting her
> > dialogue, editing her scenes, and changing elements of the plot, DiC
> > made her much weaker than the original version, Usagi. I can't
> > defend Serena very well because, to a large degree, everything you
> > complain about is true. But I can - and will - defend Usagi.
> Fine.
> > Think of the first season of SM as 'The Hero, discovered". Both by
> > others and by herself. Usagi starts out a whiny crybaby. Definately
> > not a hero. BUT - and this is the big thing - she develops as time
> > goes on. With the Senshi and Tuxedo Kamen to help and protect her -
> > and, when necessary, drag her and shove her forward - she takes
> > babysteps forward until she comes to understand her own strength,
> > and to be willing to use it. When her friends die in episodes 45/46
> > she collapses, yes: But she also gets back up and continues the
> > fight, after a bit. Alone. With no credit or glory to be won,
> > just more fighting and pain to be endured so that her friends'
> > deaths won't be in vain.
>
> "The blood of the martyrs shall water the fields of France." That is the
> right attitude.
>
> > She grows even stronger in later episodes, so that by the time the
> > 200th one rolls around, in some ways she's the same whiny clutz
> > from episode 1, but in other ways you would hardly recognize her.
> Some examples of how so? Now-and-then compasrisons?
> > And as for sacrifices: End of the first season, Usagi walks out onto
> > the ice to confront Beryl knowing that win or lose she is going to die.
> > We know - and SHE knows - that using the Silver Crystal at full power
> > drains the life force of the person wielding it; that's what killed
> > Queen Serenity. Usagi also knows that nothing less than full power
> > will stop Beryl. So she's dead. Period.
> >
> > But this fearful, bitter knowledge doesn't stop her. She still goes
> > out, head held high, to defend a world where trust, love, and
> > friendship are possible.
> >
> > What more do you want in a hero?
>
> Nothing, but she is seldom like this. I mean, on some days she would be
> unwilling or break down. Am mark of a good hero is seeing how far one can
> keep from falling over the edge, yet she falls over and over again.
>
> > Now, you can argue that because she doesn't die from this, or from
> > any of the other, similar situations she winds up in - using the
> > Silver Crystal against Wise Man at the end of Season R, deliberately
> > walking into a deathtrap in episode 101 to save Mamoru, diving into
> > Pharoah 90 to try to rescue Hotaru - that such actions are
> > meaningless. But the point is, although WE the viewers know she
> > is not going to die, SHE, Usagi, does NOT! WE know the show goes
> > on; she is a character in the show, and has no such knowledge of
> > her own immortality. If you wait in the garden of Gethsemani in
> > terror of the dawn because of what you think it will bring, and
> > it comes and nothing happens, does that mean your terror and
> > suffering never took place?
>
> What I am saying is that it could be done to place more fear and respect for
> the consequences without loopholes.
> In Yamato, important characters die
> regularly. It sounds like in the later seasons it addressed my objections.
>
> > And if you don't like the word 'soldier', how about 'protector'?
> > Which is closer to what she is, anyway.
> Much better, friend.
<KILL>
--
-_^ Dosius of Project MoonBunny ^_-
ONE OF THE DIC-DUBHATERS
Otaku to the nth degree...
the one who wants DiC to die...
...the one who will do the killing!
proj...@my-dejanews.com
Andy Hock <col...@erinet.com> wrote:
> noit...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > I find it interesting just seeing Sailor Moon for just the moral
stimulation
> > it causes me. I disagree often, but it causes me to think why.
> >
> > I thought about the end of the first season. She wishes she could live a
> > normal life. This causes her to forget everything. This is quite selfish,
> > really, and dangerous. "He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it" is
> > the proverb. We must not think for just ourselves. Great power is great
> > responsibility. Also, we are largely what our experiences have made us,
and
> > taking that away is denying our identity.
>
> What's so bad about that? I think it's a perfectly natural
> human response, especially considering her age. This isn't
> Rambo we're talking about here, it's Usagi. She doesn't
> get excited by carnage and have a subconsious death-wish.
>
> > make ever a major sacrifice where it did turn out to be a permanent loss?
>
> that the loss wouldn't be permanent. If someone runs into
> a burning building to save a life, is their courage somehow
> diminished if they make it out alive and unscarred? In all
> the season finales, Usagi is willing to die to save others.
>
> > seems like she is being chaperoned by them, they take all her lumps
defending
> > her, so she can triumph and take all the credit. Not much of a leader that
> > you have to drag around about a third of the time. Also, one thing I do
not
inappropriate
> > title, friends.
>
> In one sense, I agree. The word "soldier" implies
> membership in some sort of organized military, and
> the senshi are a strictly paramilitary operation.
> I personally like the term "warrior" better. But
> in balance, in the context of Sailor Moon, the
> Japanese translated "senshi" as "soldier". Maybe
> it's a cultural difference, since the Japanese kept
> a feudal system longer than we did in the west, so
> the military might not have been considered to be
> so organized.
>
But also, "soldier" allows for an alliteration like "senshi" (or "scout," for
that matter) when coupled with "Sailor."
--
-_^ Dosius of Project MoonBunny ^_-
DiC-hater extraordinare.
In the name of Sailor Moon's fans, I'll punish you!
Clarise451
>> and the anticipation of something tragic make me feel much sadder than the
>kind
>> of mindless carnage I see in some movies.
>
>Good point. I agree entirely there, but I fear there still needs some
>visible suffering.
I understand what you're saying. I know that this has been stated over and
over again, but the DiC dub tends to cut out, mistranslate, and misrepresent
enough to belittle most of the visible suffering. I can count the episodes
with even a bit of visible suffering, physical or emotional, on the fingers of
one hand-"A Crystal Clear Destiny," "Day of Destiny," and "A Charmed Life."
And I must say that the first two examples aren't very good ones--For the
first, it's harder to feel sympathy for a character whose destined true love is
on the brink of death when they were insulting each other only two episodes
before (a weakness of the Japanese anime as well, and the equivalent parts of
the manga were done much better). And for the second, when the dub cuts 50
minutes into 23, a lot of emotional moments are lost, and they even try to
pretend that the 'scouts' don't die at all.
Usagi also seems to suffer more as the series goes on for some reason.
>> If the Talismans story were to happen with the
>moral
>> laws of the real world in place, it would be very unlikely that no one
>would
>> have to die--it would be Neptune and Uranus who save the world, and Sailor
>Moon
>
>Then, in that case, my friend, I should think that the show is teaching bad
>moral priorities. It is a themed show, and it is thus saying it is more
>important to be in effect selfish because of your own personal feelings. Very
>dangerous.
I don't exactly call it selfish to be completely unwilling to let anyone else
die for the sake of world peace while at the same time to be willing to
sacrifice yourself for the same cause if necessary. (ep. 110).
Anyway, I don't think the show is teaching bad moral priorities. I think that
very, very few children, if any, would actually draw moral conclusions from a
TV show--and if they did, they would grow out of it by the time they realized
that the actions that come out of wanting to make everyone happy and wanting
the world to be a better place aren't always the correct actions. I would hope
that it would at least give people something to think about. I am at least
partially a believer in "those who know right will do right;" so I think that
thinking about complex moral dilemnas like in the S series is important and can
lead to a right answer whether or not you agree with the answer the show gives.
The only example I can give is Ayn Rand's "Anthem"; I wasn't as completely
against the selfish ideas espoused in that novel as I am now until I read the
book. Reading the book, which made a fairly convincing case for itself, I had
to argue back against it in my mind, and so I learned a lot from reading that
book even though I disagree totally with it. I suppose one could say the same
about some of the situations in Sailor Moon--it can be very thought-provoking
whether or not you agree with Usagi's actions.
I haven't given too much context for the talismans storyline, but I don't think
it would serve much of a purpose anyway--it isn't a clear cut case and
ultimately it's largely a question of one's own perception of the world whether
one agrees more with Sailor Moon or Sailors Neptune and Uranus. Personally,
although Sailor Moon is my favorite character of them all, Sailor Uranus comes
in a close second. I think it takes *both* viewpoints to arrive at any kind of
morally defensible situation. To be willing to kill innocent people if it's
for the sake of world peace is arguably just as wrong as not wanting to do so.
(Incidentally, it has always seemed to me that even if the inner senshi don't
deserve the title of "soldier," Sailors Uranus and Neptune do. They lecture
each other on not getting emotionally attached to anyone who might have a
Talisman and consequently have to die--but at the same time, it causes them
quite a bit of emotional pain to try to close off their emotions to the point
that they can accept the death of an innocent person. I don't think either of
them is completely successful in doing so, but they do recognize the necessity
of doing so.)
>That sounds good. That is her at her best. When she is earnest and honest,
>not acting scatter-brained. That is just about only where she acts like a
>princess.
One thing I love about the series is that as it goes on, not only does she
become a lot more mature where it involves fighting, but also where it doesn't,
like in that scene. In the S season, she learns a lot of self-discipline and
even in one of the early episodes of that season she comes remarkably close to
passing up a trip to the arcade in favor of studying for her high school
entrance exams. By the late episodes of the series, she's scarcely acting
scatterbrained at all. AND I definitely admire her behavior in Stars; whereas
in the first season she couldn't decide whether she liked Motoki (Andrew) or
Tuxedo Mask better, in Stars (although I haven't watched too much of it) she
ISN'T going after big-pop-star-idol Seiya like he's the best thing since sliced
bread.
I would highly encourage you to get the S and Stars series fansubbed--in case
you're wondering why I haven't mentioned the fourth season, SuperS, much, there
are two reasons. The first is that I haven't seen much of it--only the first
half, badly subbed, so long ago that I can only remember a few episodes.
The second is that Usagi seems to regress quite a bit. It's a hilarious
series, and very cute, and I'm sure I'll just love the ending since I'm one of
the Chibi-Usa-lovers, but as for Usagi's character development, I really don't
see that much. I think it might partially be the effect Chibi-Usa has on her;
though I adore Chibi-Usa, she does act more like a nine-year-old version of
Usagi than a sixteen-year-old one. And as a result I think Chibi-Usa brings
out a lot of the young scatterbrain in Usagi. This wasn't too apparent in the
S episodes because Usagi and Chibi-Usa both were too worried about Hotaru for
the most part to really antagonize each other. They have more free time in
SuperS to just relax and be immature, unfortunately. But for most people,
growing up isn't steady progress-they suffer setbacks and start temporarily
acting immature again.
This is another of the situations that is handled much better in the manga than
in the anime, by the way.
Another thirty minutes of typing! Heh heh...my English teacher last year is
going to be my Japanese teacher next year, in 11th grade. If she teaches
Japanese half as well as she teaches persuasive writing, I can start planning
my trip to Japan...
Xplo Eristotle
>
> In article <6ppvp7$ufg$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, noit...@my-dejanews.com says...
> >
> >In article <35BF40...@erinet.com>,
>
> <snip>
>
> >> This point seems sort of irrelevant to me. She didn't know
> >> that the loss wouldn't be permanent. If someone runs into
> >> a burning building to save a life, is their courage somehow
> >> diminished if they make it out alive and unscarred? In all
> >> the season finales, Usagi is willing to die to save others.
> >
>
> All seasons - She suffers tremendously. For details:
>
> First Season - she dies.
>
> Second Season - She almost dies, and ChibiUsa with her.
>
> Third Season - Hotura reduced to infancy, ChibiUsa nearly
> killed, lots of destruction and pain. And to top it off,
> Haruka and Michiru insist on a trial by combat with Usagi
> to settle things.
>
> Fourth Season - Haven't watched it yet (I can't buy ALL of
> VKLL's tapes at once.)
Let's see.. oh, this goes against all my principles, but what the hell...
L
O
T
S
O
F
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
At the end, a fragment of the Dead Moon Circus breaks away from the wreckage
and begins floating upward. Neherenia is on it and has Chibimoon with her, so
Moon follows. They talk, Neherenia strangles Moon for a while, and then
finally chucks Chibimoon over the side (they've got to be miles up by now).
Much to Neherenia's surprise, Moon boldly dives off of the side to save
Chibimoon. She does manage to catch up to her, but they would both have been
street pizza if Pegasus didn't save them.
Obvious sign of Usagi's growth as a selfless heroine, if you ask me.. I've
seen #45-46, and no matter how strong you think Usagi was being, you will
never convince me that the Usagi you see there would have the guts to stare
Neherenia in the face and then leap to her doom like that.
There are brief flashbacks to this in the Neherenia arc of Stars, but you
really have to see the SS ending to "get it".
Xplo "Endymion" Eristotle xp...@infomagic.com
# Grand Master - Lunar Inquisition #
Yog: http://www.infomagic.com/~xplo/index.html
Frank White
<snip>
>> I don't think it's very fair of you to judge her without you personally
>> seeing her grow as a character.
>
>A fair charge. I have only just reached the second season, so I cannot see
>much improvement, and Serena and Darien have never been able to enjoy being
>reunited yet, as he was captured by Beryl and they both forgot later. It
>seems like their relationship has repeatedly stalled.
Boy, you are not kidding. If he's not being killed, then Darien/Mamoru
is being kidnapped, brainwashed, or distracted by other things, like
ChibiUsa. This is one romance that REALLY is rocky.
As for character development, and/or seeing Usagi suffer for her or
other's actions, wait until about the midpoint of the second
season, shortly after ChibiUsa/Reeny shows up. You'll see more
emotional suffering AND character development than you might want.
FW
Frank White
>
>In article <35BF42...@erinet.com>,
> Andy Hock <col...@erinet.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> It's amazing how you can take the same video footage
>> and change the dialog enough to completely reverse
>> the meaning, at times.
>
>I suppose that most of you following this thread would agree largely onflaws
>in the American dubbing criticized by anit-moonies. Still, I have my boubts
>as to how much improvement the character has fromthe original. Perhaps I
>would be pleasantly surprised.
I would say there would be a good chance of you being pleasantly
suprised. I know I was.
FW
Frank White
>
>In article <35BF40...@erinet.com>,
<snip>
>> This point seems sort of irrelevant to me. She didn't know
>> that the loss wouldn't be permanent. If someone runs into
>> a burning building to save a life, is their courage somehow
>> diminished if they make it out alive and unscarred? In all
>> the season finales, Usagi is willing to die to save others.
>
>What was the price in each instance,
All seasons - She suffers tremendously. For details:
First Season - she dies.
Second Season - She almost dies, and ChibiUsa with her.
Third Season - Hotura reduced to infancy, ChibiUsa nearly
killed, lots of destruction and pain. And to top it off,
Haruka and Michiru insist on a trial by combat with Usagi
to settle things.
Fourth Season - Haven't watched it yet (I can't buy ALL of
VKLL's tapes at once.)
Fifth Season - Imagine unspeakable destruction and evil. The
loss of almost everyone you hold dear. Then imagine you are
given a weapon that can destroy the one responsible for all
that, even though killing goes against all your deeply held
principles. What is the price to your soul of using the
weapon? What is the price to your soul of NOT using it?
>and by the way, has the 3rd season of
>Sailor Moon been or will be shone in the US?
No, and almost certainly not, as DiC (the company that
owns the right to SM in North America) has expressed
no interest in dubbing further episodes.
So if you want to see more of SM than the first two
seasons, you'll have to buy from a fansubber or find
someone to loan you the tapes.
FW
noit...@hotmail.com
> >> I don't think it's very fair of you to judge her without you personally
> >> seeing her grow as a character.
> >
> >A fair charge. I have only just reached the second season, so I cannot see
> >much improvement, and Serena and Darien have never been able to enjoy being
> >reunited yet, as he was captured by Beryl and they both forgot later. It
> >seems like their relationship has repeatedly stalled.
>
> Boy, you are not kidding. If he's not being killed, then Darien/Mamoru
> is being kidnapped, brainwashed, or distracted by other things, like
> ChibiUsa. This is one romance that REALLY is rocky.
>
> As for character development, and/or seeing Usagi suffer for her or
> other's actions, wait until about the midpoint of the second
> season, shortly after ChibiUsa/Reeny shows up. You'll see more
> emotional suffering AND character development than you might want.
I have quite a demand, friend.
noit...@hotmail.com
> >Good point. I agree entirely there, but I fear there still needs some
> >visible suffering.
> I understand what you're saying. I know that this has been stated over and
> over again, but the DiC dub tends to cut out, mistranslate, and misrepresent
> enough to belittle most of the visible suffering. I can count the episodes
> with even a bit of visible suffering, physical or emotional, on the fingers of
> one hand-"A Crystal Clear Destiny," "Day of Destiny," and "A Charmed Life."
> And I must say that the first two examples aren't very good ones--For the
> first, it's harder to feel sympathy for a character whose destined true love is
> on the brink of death when they were insulting each other only two episodes
> before (a weakness of the Japanese anime as well
Please clarify. You left unclear what specific weakness you were referring
to. Was that weakness the rapid transition, or something else? Still, her
watching him at the brink of death and the appearance of the Imperium Crystal
was touching and beautiful even if the the events leading up to were forced,
and they were. For me, it was sad, ironic humor on the way to an execution;
I loved it.
, and the equivalent parts of
> the manga were done much better). And for the second, when the dub cuts 50
> minutes into 23, a lot of emotional moments are lost, and they even try to
> pretend that the 'scouts' don't die at all.
It seemed like a video game; explosion, scout is gone, scout's image
apppears, the fades away. No emotional impact; structured and stale.
> Usagi also seems to suffer more as the series goes on for some reason.
Good. Some people are not warriors. The scouts are more warrior than she.
To be a warrior, you have to have an inferno raging inside you, a flame
raging and reaching out to immolate your foes. She lacks the warrior's
flame, but she has something else. Her strength is a wellspring of emotion,
a flood of purifying tears, which cleanse not just the taint of their foes,
but also from the carnage wreaked in the process of victory by the
afore-mentioned flame. I can relate better to the warrior spirit.
> >> If the Talismans story were to happen with the
> >moral
> >> laws of the real world in place, it would be very unlikely that no one
> >would
> >> have to die--it would be Neptune and Uranus who save the world, and Sailor
> >Moon
> >
> >Then, in that case, my friend, I should think that the show is teaching bad
> >moral priorities. It is a themed show, and it is thus saying it is more
> >important to be in effect selfish because of your own personal feelings. Very
> >dangerous.
>
> I don't exactly call it selfish to be completely unwilling to let anyone else
> die for the sake of world peace while at the same time to be willing to
> sacrifice yourself for the same cause if necessary. (ep. 110).
Then you are not being totally dedicated to your cause, I fear. Not only
must you be willing to make personal sacrifices, but you must also be willing
to sacrifice some of your personal loyalties to fulfill still higher ones.
Yes, this may even include letting your friends die. Completely unwilling can
mean completely unfaithful to your cause.
> Anyway, I don't think the show is teaching bad moral priorities. I think that
> very, very few children, if any, would actually draw moral conclusions from a
> TV show--and if they did, they would grow out of it by the time they realized
> that the actions that come out of wanting to make everyone happy and wanting
> the world to be a better place aren't always the correct actions.
I think you would be surprised. Iknow for myself how important being taught
at an early age is. Those are the formative years. Preventing another's
sacrifice can at times deny their conscience. I would hope
> that it would at least give people something to think about. I am at least
> partially a believer in "those who know right will do right;" so I think that
> thinking about complex moral dilemnas like in the S series is important and can
> lead to a right answer whether or not you agree with the answer the show gives.
Perhaps, but have you ever known something was wrong, and done it anyway?
Sometimes you will do something as it is just right, but what is the reward
for doing what is right, when wrong is easier? The bigger the dilemma, the
more difficult right becomes. As for thinking about the issues, I agree;
thinking about them can be very beneficial.
> The only example I can give is Ayn Rand's "Anthem"; I wasn't as completely
> against the selfish ideas espoused in that novel as I am now until I read the
> book. Reading the book, which made a fairly convincing case for itself, I had
> to argue back against it in my mind, and so I learned a lot from reading that
> book even though I disagree totally with it. I suppose one could say the same
> about some of the situations in Sailor Moon--it can be very thought-provoking
> whether or not you agree with Usagi's actions.
Hence the title of this post.
> I haven't given too much context for the talismans storyline, but I don't think
> it would serve much of a purpose anyway--it isn't a clear cut case and
> ultimately it's largely a question of one's own perception of the world whether
> one agrees more with Sailor Moon or Sailors Neptune and Uranus. Personally,
> although Sailor Moon is my favorite character of them all, Sailor Uranus comes
> in a close second. I think it takes *both* viewpoints to arrive at any kind of
> morally defensible situation. To be willing to kill innocent people if it's
> for the sake of world peace is arguably just as wrong as not wanting to do so.
Priorities, priorities.
> (Incidentally, it has always seemed to me that even if the inner senshi don't
> deserve the title of "soldier," Sailors Uranus and Neptune do. They lecture
> each other on not getting emotionally attached to anyone who might have a
> Talisman and consequently have to die--but at the same time, it causes them
> quite a bit of emotional pain to try to close off their emotions to the point
> that they can accept the death of an innocent person. I don't think either of
> them is completely successful in doing so, but they do recognize the necessity
> of doing so.)
They sound wise.
> >That sounds good. That is her at her best. When she is earnest and honest,
> >not acting scatter-brained. That is just about only where she acts like a
> >princess.
>
> One thing I love about the series is that as it goes on, not only does she
> become a lot more mature where it involves fighting, but also where it doesn't,
> like in that scene. In the S season, she learns a lot of self-discipline and
> even in one of the early episodes of that season she comes remarkably close to
> passing up a trip to the arcade in favor of studying for her high school
> entrance exams. By the late episodes of the series, she's scarcely acting
> scatterbrained at all.
Examples? This I want to know.
AND I definitely admire her behavior in Stars; whereas
> in the first season she couldn't decide whether she liked Motoki (Andrew) or
> Tuxedo Mask better, in Stars (although I haven't watched too much of it) she
> ISN'T going after big-pop-star-idol Seiya like he's the best thing since sliced
> bread.
So she does not go after him at all, I hope you mean.
> I would highly encourage you to get the S and Stars series fansubbed--in case
> you're wondering why I haven't mentioned the fourth season, SuperS, much, there
> are two reasons. The first is that I haven't seen much of it--only the first
> half, badly subbed, so long ago that I can only remember a few episodes.
> The second is that Usagi seems to regress quite a bit. It's a hilarious
> series, and very cute, and I'm sure I'll just love the ending since I'm one of
> the Chibi-Usa-lovers, but as for Usagi's character development, I really don't
> see that much. I think it might partially be the effect Chibi-Usa has on her;
> though I adore Chibi-Usa, she does act more like a nine-year-old version of
> Usagi than a sixteen-year-old one. And as a result I think Chibi-Usa brings
> out a lot of the young scatterbrain in Usagi. This wasn't too apparent in the
> S episodes because Usagi and Chibi-Usa both were too worried about Hotaru for
> the most part to really antagonize each other.
How many seasons are there?
They have more free time in
> SuperS to just relax and be immature, unfortunately. But for most people,
> growing up isn't steady progress-they suffer setbacks and start temporarily
> acting immature again.
> This is another of the situations that is handled much better in the manga than
> in the anime, by the way.
I see. This is comforting.
> Another thirty minutes of typing! Heh heh...my English teacher last year is
> going to be my Japanese teacher next year, in 11th grade. If she teaches
> Japanese half as well as she teaches persuasive writing, I can start planning
> my trip to Japan...
Thank you for those thirty minutes of your time, friend.
noit...@hotmail.com
> Fifth Season - Imagine unspeakable destruction and evil. The
> loss of almost everyone you hold dear. Then imagine you are
> given a weapon that can destroy the one responsible for all
> that, even though killing goes against all your deeply held
> principles. What is the price to your soul of using the
> weapon? What is the price to your soul of NOT using it?
Sounds good.
> So if you want to see more of SM than the first two
> seasons, you'll have to buy from a fansubber or find
> someone to loan you the tapes.
Perhaps I will.
TCurryFan
>In article <6pm1gs$ja5$2...@news.fsr.net>,
>
>> She grows even stronger in later episodes, so that by
>> the time the 200th one rolls around, in some ways she's
>> the same whiny clutz from episode 1, but in other ways
>> you would hardly recognize her. Some examples of
>> how so? Now-and-then compasrisons? And as for
>> sacrifices: End of the first season, Usagi walks out onto
>> the ice to confront Beryl knowing that win or lose she
>> is going to die.
>> We know - and SHE knows - that using the Silver
>> Crystal at full power drains the life force of the person
>> wielding it; that's what killed Queen Serenity. Usagi
>> also knows that nothing less than full power will stop
>> Beryl. So she's dead. Period.
>>
>> But this fearful, bitter knowledge doesn't stop her. She
>> still goes out, head held high, to defend a world where
>> trust, love, and friendship are possible.
>>
>> What more do you want in a hero?
>
>Nothing, but she is seldom like this.
You've seen less then HALF of Sailor Moon, and missed some of the best
episodes. I honestly don't think you're in a posiition to judge Usagi's total
growth throughtout the series. Read up on what happens in the later seasons
before you critisize it, ok?
>I mean, on some days she would be unwilling or break
>down.
So would anyone, given the circumstances (I'll get to that in a second).
>Am mark of a good hero is seeing how far one can keep
>from falling over the edge, yet she falls over and over
>again.
Uh, huh. And she GETS BACK UP and KEEPS FIGHTING.
I've read your comments in this thread with a mixture of disgust and
confusion... You're making broad generalizaions about a show you haven't even
see half of (and what you have seen is a watered down, bastardized version. In
one episode, we see "Serena" crying, seemingly without reason... But the
reason is that in the original, Raye slapped her. HARD [you can see the red
mark on her cheek, even in the NA version]. Interesting that they cut THAT
out, yet kept in her crying, adding to the idea of her being aemotional wreck.)
and critisizing a characters who's a FUCKING 14 YEAR OLD for occasionally
crying and breaking down and making a few questionable decisions. What were
YOU doing when you were 14, dear? Saving the world? Trying to decide what's
worth sacrificing and what's not? Yes, she's made mistakes. And yes, her
mistakes are a bit bigger than most because the whole world- at times the whole
UNIVERSE is at stake. But I'd like to see anyone else do better, especially
considering that this WAS NOT HER CHOICE. She didn't ASK to be Sailor Moon, it
was foisted upon her. But she fought anyway, often when she'd rather crawl
under he bed and pretend nothing was wrong. And as for her friends helping her
(in the later season, she relies on them less and less, btw. Again, get the
later episodes before you criticize the setries as a whole). And so what if
they do help her? Did Rommel go into Africa by himself? Did McArthur return
to the Phillipines alone? Give me ONE example of a soldier who's fought for
world peace alone. Of COURSE her friends help her- that's THEIR JOB. That's
what THEY have the title of *Senshi* as well. And one other thing I wish to
address: The idea that her suffering would seem more real if she had visible
scars. Bullshit. My brother died 10 years ago. This didn't scar me at all
(physically), but it affects me very deeply. Why is pain somehow more real if
others can see it? That's just bull.
For the record, I HAVE scars. PLENTY of them. But I find the emotional
scars-which on one else can see- are far more lasting.
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Catherine Johnson, who'd love to see how long "noitartst" would last in Usagi's
place.
TCur...@aol.com ---------- Sailor Andromeda ---------- MiSTie #75, 125
"If pride stands in the way of winning Shampoo, then who needs it?"
-Mousse, _Ranma_1/2_, "Ranma Vs. Mousse: To Lose is to Win".
Phantine
find a way yto get those tapes..
<snip speach for sake of space>
-Phantine
Remove 'spamguard.'
TCurryFan
>A good soldier does not meddle in civilian affairs,
Define "civilian affairs"?
>and she is a civilian.
No, she's not. She's a "Soldier for Love and Justice". That ain't just a
title, buddy.
She wears a uniform. She's being trained (granted it's on-the-job training,
but that really can't be helped). She carries weapons. She has a small group
of soldiers (also with weapons, uniforms, and training) fighting with her. How
is she NOT a soldier? Don't say "she's not experienced". NO ONE is
"experienced" in war, no matter how much they drill, until it really happens.
She didn't have training before hand? Again, that couldn't be helped. I see
no difference between her and any other soldier.
>The worst combiation.
So, unless only other soldiers are dying she can get involved? I guess I don't
get what you mean by "Soldiers shouldn't get involoved in civilian affairs"...
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Catherine Johnson.
Xplo Eristotle
>
> In article <199807302115...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> > One thing I love about the series is that as it goes on, not only does she
> > become a lot more mature where it involves fighting, but also where it doesn't,
> > like in that scene. In the S season, she learns a lot of self-discipline and
> > even in one of the early episodes of that season she comes remarkably close to
> > passing up a trip to the arcade in favor of studying for her high school
> > entrance exams. By the late episodes of the series, she's scarcely acting
> > scatterbrained at all.
> Examples? This I want to know.
"A picture is worth a thousand words." Best to watch the show yourself or take
his word for it, in this case.
> AND I definitely admire her behavior in Stars; whereas
> > in the first season she couldn't decide whether she liked Motoki (Andrew) or
> > Tuxedo Mask better, in Stars (although I haven't watched too much of it) she
> > ISN'T going after big-pop-star-idol Seiya like he's the best thing since sliced
> > bread.
> So she does not go after him at all, I hope you mean.
She's his friend, but she's everybody's friend. They go out on a date (his
idea). He tries pretty hard. But he never really had a chance.. at the end,
when everyone is making their goodbyes, the dialogue between them goes
something like:
"Odango.. I'll never forget you."
"Yes, we'll always be friends."
> How many seasons are there?
Five.
Tuxedo Chibi-Luv
>
> "noit...@my-dejanews.com" said:
>
> >A good soldier does not meddle in civilian affairs,
>
> Define "civilian affairs"?
>
> >and she is a civilian.
>
> No, she's not. She's a "Soldier for Love and Justice". That ain't just a
She's a soldier according to the Webster's Revised Unabridged
Dictionary. Here's one of the definitions: a brave warrior.
Sinces she's "a brave warrior", she a soldier.
TCurryFan
>> >in Stars (although I haven't watched too much of it)
>> >she ISN'T going after big-pop-star-idol Seiya like he's
>> >the best thing since sliced bread.
Even though he sometimes acts like he is. ^_^
>> So she does not go after him at all, I hope you mean.
>
>She's his friend, but she's everybody's friend. They go
>out on a date (his idea). He tries pretty hard. But he
>never really had a chance..
Nope.
BTW, I LOVE that episode... The scenes of them just "hanging out" are pretty
cool. And the scene where they're alone in the room is...
Aw, heck...
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
I loved the way it went.. With him getting closer and closer... Asking if
it's her "first time", telling her "she'll enjoy it"... All the while, she's
recalling Haruka's warning not to trust him, and thinking of Mamoru...
Then they cut to the scene of them on the dance floor, boogie-ing like there's
no tomorrow. I LOVED IT! it was cracking up!
>Xplo "Endymion" Eristotle xp...@infomagic.com
># Grand Master - Lunar Inquisition #
>Yog: http://www.infomagic.com/~xplo/index.html
Catherine Johnson. Poor little Iron Mouse...
Clarise451
This is true. However, whether Usagi's behavior is always understandable and
justified is one thing; whether it's right is another. And I believe that it's
an issue worth debating.
Clarise451
>to. Was that weakness the rapid transition, or something else? Still, her
>watching him at the brink of death and the appearance of the Imperium Crystal
>was touching and beautiful even if the the events leading up to were forced,
>and they were.
Yes, it was the rapid transition. I really loved the episode the first time I
watched it, and I still do to some extent, but the fact that the events leading
up to it were forced bugged me more as the series went on. In the entire first
run of 65 dubbed episodes, there is only one episode where they liked each
other both at the beginning of the episode and at the end. And then the focus
really shifts to things other than their romance for most of the rest of the
series. I think I would have liked the quick transition better if it didn't
seem like the romance was brought out for one episode to make things sweet and
interesting and put it back right after. In the manga, it seems more like a
progression of events in their relationship that makes sense, partly because
their romance remains one of the main foci.
>It seemed like a video game; explosion, scout is gone, scout's image
>apppears, the fades away. No emotional impact; structured and stale.
I actually haven't seen the original versions of these two episodes yet, so I
can't really comment on that. But the last time I saw even nearly that much
cut out of a movie, it made about as much sense as e.e.cummings's poetry. In
that case, the emotional impact was retained and the plot continuity was diced.
I think in the dub version it's the reverse.
>Then you are not being totally dedicated to your cause, I fear. Not only
>must you be willing to make personal sacrifices, but you must also be willing
>to sacrifice some of your personal loyalties to fulfill still higher ones.
>Yes, this may even include letting your friends die. Completely unwilling can
>mean completely unfaithful to your cause.
This is true. I think that Sailor Moon is portrayed in that episode as someone
of complete purity and complete naivete when it comes to saving the world, and
although I really admire her for her attitude, I have to admit that it is
Sailors Uranus and Neptune who are doing what's right. It is possible to do
the wrong thing for the right reasons. Usagi's reasons are the most noble in
the world, but the way she deals with the world sometimes works only because
she has her own TV series.
Frank White
<snip>
>> As for character development, and/or seeing Usagi suffer for her or
>> other's actions, wait until about the midpoint of the second
>> season, shortly after ChibiUsa/Reeny shows up. You'll see more
>> emotional suffering AND character development than you might want.
>
>I have quite a demand, friend.
If you get through the telephone booth scene without crying along
with Usagi, then, my friend, your heart is cold.
FW
Clarise451
you've said so far about what you liked and disliked about Sailor Moon--
The first one I can think of is Fushigi Yuugi, which Pioneer is releasing this
fall. There is SUFFERING! Miaka suffers. Tamahome suffers. Yui suffers.
You'll suffer. ("What?! The next tape isn't coming out for three months?
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!") I personally like it a lot; it hasn't provoked as much
thought in me as Sailor Moon has, more like a lot of suspense.
There's also Kenji Miyazawa's work, (which unfortunately I haven't actually
seen yet...); there's "Night On the Galactic Railroad," which is based on a
novel he wrote, in which all the characters are animated as cats...and there's
also an anime based on his life called "Kenji's Spring," which is going to be
released this fall or sometime later as "Spring and Chaos." The characters are
cats in that one two. Both of them seem very philosophical. According to what
I've read, Miyazawa was a Buddhist and his poems "illustrate a desire not for
his own happiness or for the happiness of a particular loved one, but a desire
for the well-being of all men, even if it costs him his own life to bring that
about." (That's from an Animerica article...they can be wrong sometimes but I
haven't been able to get my hands on any of his poems.)
Also...I hope this thread lasts until "A Charmed Life" airs on the Cartoon
Network. I'd be very interested in your thoughts on Mamoru/Darien's actions...
noit...@hotmail.com
> >You left unclear what specific weakness you were referring
> >to. Was that weakness the rapid transition, or something else? Still, her
> >watching him at the brink of death and the appearance of the Imperium Crystal
> >was touching and beautiful even if the the events leading up to were forced,
> >and they were.
>
> watched it, and I still do to some extent, but the fact that the events leading
> up to it were forced bugged me more as the series went on. In the entire first
> run of 65 dubbed episodes, there is only one episode where they liked each
> other both at the beginning of the episode and at the end.
Wow. I did not know things will remain so disappointing for so long. I hope
Darien remembers eventually. They have have yet to enjoy their reunion, so
one can take little satisfaction in it. Those two aliens at the start of
season two are nice. I would like them, and sympathize with their problem
more if they were not so nasty. And then the focus
> really shifts to things other than their romance for most of the rest of the
> series. I think I would have liked the quick transition better if it didn't
> seem like the romance was brought out for one episode to make things sweet and
> interesting and put it back right after.
My guess is it had gone on too long as a plot thread.
In the manga, it seems more like a
> progression of events in their relationship that makes sense, partly because
> their romance remains one of the main focus. It hopefully returns.
>
> >It seemed like a video game; explosion, scout is gone, scout's image
> >apppears, the fades away. No emotional impact; structured and stale.
>
> I actually haven't seen the original versions of these two episodes yet, so I
> can't really comment on that. But the last time I saw even nearly that much
> cut out of a movie, it made about as much sense as e.e.cummings's poetry.
I hated his using only case. I understand.
In
> that case, the emotional impact was retained and the plot continuity was diced.
> I think in the dub version it's the reverse.
Hmm. Really.
> >Then you are not being totally dedicated to your cause, I fear. Not only
> >must you be willing to make personal sacrifices, but you must also be willing
> >to sacrifice some of your personal loyalties to fulfill still higher ones.
> >Yes, this may even include letting your friends die. Completely unwilling can
> >mean completely unfaithful to your cause.
>
> This is true. I think that Sailor Moon is portrayed in that episode as someone
> of complete purity and complete naivete when it comes to saving the world, and
> although I really admire her for her attitude, I have to admit that it is
> Sailors Uranus and Neptune who are doing what's right. It is possible to do
> the wrong thing for the right reasons.
And how. Over time, however, like it or not, the general philosophy has
proven its superiority. Usagi's reasons are the most noble in
> the world, but the way she deals with the world sometimes works only because
> she has her own TV series.
Indeed.
noit...@hotmail.com
> I was just thinking about some other anime you might like, considering what
> you've said so far about what you liked and disliked about Sailor Moon--
> The first one I can think of is Fushigi Yuugi, which Pioneer is releasing this
> fall. There is SUFFERING! Miaka suffers. Tamahome suffers. Yui suffers.
> You'll suffer. ("What?! The next tape isn't coming out for three months?
> NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!") I personally like it a lot; it hasn't provoked as much
> thought in me as Sailor Moon has, more like a lot of suspense.
I find more often then not that things I disagree with I find regularly more
provocative then things I do, as I attempt to reason why.
> There's also Kenji Miyazawa's work, (which unfortunately I haven't actually
> seen yet...); there's "Night On the Galactic Railroad," which is based on a
> novel he wrote, in which all the characters are animated as cats...and there's
> also an anime based on his life called "Kenji's Spring," which is going to be
> released this fall or sometime later as "Spring and Chaos." The characters are
> cats in that one two. Both of them seem very philosophical. According to what
> I've read, Miyazawa was a Buddhist and his poems "illustrate a desire not for
That sounds intriguing, friend.
> his own happiness or for the happiness of a particular loved one, but a desire
> for the well-being of all men, even if it costs him his own life to bring that
> about." (That's from an Animerica article...they can be wrong sometimes but I
> haven't been able to get my hands on any of his poems.)
> Also...I hope this thread lasts until "A Charmed Life" airs on the Cartoon
> Network. I'd be very interested in your thoughts on Mamoru/Darien's actions...
If you say so, then I ought to probably hope so.
noit...@hotmail.com
tcur...@aol.com (TCurryFan) wrote:
> "Xplo Eristotle <xp...@infomagic.com>" said:
>
> >> >in Stars (although I haven't watched too much of it)
> >> >she ISN'T going after big-pop-star-idol Seiya like he's
> >> >the best thing since sliced bread.
>
> Even though he sometimes acts like he is. ^_^
>
> >> So she does not go after him at all, I hope you mean.
> >
> >She's his friend, but she's everybody's friend. They go
> >out on a date (his idea). He tries pretty hard. But he
> >never really had a chance..
> I loved the way it went.. With him getting closer and closer... Asking if
> it's her "first time", telling her "she'll enjoy it"... All the while, she's
> recalling Haruka's warning not to trust him, and thinking of Mamoru...
No wonder. I assume she remained faithful.
noit...@hotmail.com
fwhite*NOSPAM*@colfax.com (Frank White) wrote:
> In article <6psl5d$grd$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, noit...@hotmail.com
> >> other's actions, wait until about the midpoint of the second
> >> season, shortly after ChibiUsa/Reeny shows up. You'll see more
> >> emotional suffering AND character development than you might want.
> >
> >I have quite a demand, friend.
>
> If you get through the telephone booth scene without crying along
> with Usagi, then, my friend, your heart is cold.
noit...@hotmail.com
tcur...@aol.com (TCurryFan) wrote:
> >A good soldier does not meddle in civilian affairs,
> Define "civilian affairs"?
> >and she is a civilian.
> No, she's not. She's a "Soldier for Love and Justice". That ain't just a
> title, buddy.
She might be one technically, but she certanly does not possess the heart of
one. A nurse, perhaps. She is more of a healer type person. I yesterday
posted what I thought her strengths were, as opposed to the Scouts. She is
dedicated to good, but not as a warrior. Her strength flows from her earnest
desire to help people, not destroy evil manif estaions, while she might do
that along the way.
> She wears a uniform. She's being trained (granted it's on-the-job training,
> but that really can't be helped). She carries weapons. She has a small group
> of soldiers (also with weapons, uniforms, and training) fighting with her. How
> is she NOT a soldier? Don't say "she's not experienced". NO ONE is
> "experienced" in war, no matter how much they drill, until it really happens.
> She didn't have training before hand? Again, that couldn't be helped. I see
> no difference between her and any other soldier.
If there were just two scouts I had to pick to go on a mission, they would be
Mars and Jupiter for their combative prowess, and mentality.
> So, unless only other soldiers are dying she can get involved? I guess I don't
> get what you mean by "Soldiers shouldn't get involoved in civilian affairs"...
I mean she does not keep her personal emotion s to herself during battle.
Phoenix
>Frank White wrote:
>> If you get through the telephone booth scene without crying along
>> with Usagi, then, my friend, your heart is cold.
>I will bear it in mind, friend, but does this include the DIC dub?
It certainly does, for that is the very one I nominated. I've not seen
the Japanese version yet. Whatever their other faults, DiC did an
admirable job with that scene.
Phoenix ;{)
noit...@hotmail.com
> You've seen less then HALF of Sailor Moon, and missed some of the best
> episodes. I honestly don't think you're in a posiition to judge Usagi's total
> growth throughtout the series. Read up on what happens in the later seasons
> before you critisize it, ok?
> >I mean, on some days she would be unwilling or break
> >down.
>
> So would anyone, given the circumstances (I'll get to that in a second).
> >from falling over the edge, yet she falls over and over
> >again.
>
> Uh, huh. And she GETS BACK UP and KEEPS FIGHTING.
> confusion... You're making broad generalizaions about a show you haven't even
> one episode, we see "Serena" crying, seemingly without reason... But the
> reason is that in the original, Raye slapped her.
Good. What episode was that? Seeing them angry at each other is one of the
highlights. Raye concerns me a little, as she makes me recall Scarlett
O'Hara. HARD [you can see the red
> mark on her cheek, even in the NA version]. Interesting that they cut THAT
> out, yet kept in her crying, adding to the idea of her being aemotional wreck.)
If I were her, I would have probably strangled her until restrained.
> and critisizing a characters who's a 14 YEAR OLD for occasionally
> crying and breaking down and making a few questionable decisions. What were
> YOU doing when you were 14, dear?
Minding my own social business and not getting emotionally involved
romantically. The same goes even doubly for my sister. Saving the world?
Trying to decide what's
> worth sacrificing and what's not? Yes, she's made mistakes. And yes, her
> mistakes are a bit bigger than most because the whole world- at times the whole
> UNIVERSE is at stake.
But I'd like to see anyone else do better, especially
> considering that this WAS NOT HER CHOICE. She didn't ASK to be Sailor Moon, it
> was foisted upon her. But she fought anyway, often when she'd rather crawl
> under he bed and pretend nothing was wrong. And as for her friends helping her
> (in the later season, she relies on them less and less, btw.
How is that the case?
Again, get the
> later episodes before you criticize the setries as a whole). And so what if
> they do help her? Did Rommel go into Africa by himself?
To lead you are supposed to hearten your troops, not have them drag you
around a good deal of the time while you deal with issues. When a leader is
weak, it is a tradition honored by time to desert, or fight on your own. Not
the most realistic. In the Arctic she might have been able to help her
friends. Did McArthur return
> to the Phillipines alone? Give me ONE example of a soldier who's fought for
> world peace alone. Of COURSE her friends help her- that's THEIR JOB.
Soldiers have a job, yet they at times desert.
That's
> what THEY have the title of *Senshi* as well. And one other thing I wish to
> address: The idea that her suffering would seem more real if she had visible
> scars. My brother died 10 years ago. This didn't scar me at all
> (physically), but it affects me very deeply.
My Dad died of cancer ten years ago. It hurt me, but I recovered. I do not
talk about it much, and it does not show visibly. I go about life, and
people do not know or think nothing of iif they do, as its impact does not
show to them. I tkink that a visual image of permanent pain would make
things hit home stronger. This way, it would make the price harder to
forget. A facial scar, for instance, could be used to maximim effectiveness.
Why is pain somehow more real if
> others can see it? That's just bull.
> For the record, I HAVE scars. PLENTY of them. But I find the emotional
> scars-which on one else can see- are far more lasting.
They are, friend, but we speak of a tlelvision audience.
Frank White
I agree. They clip a few seconds leading up to the scene, a back
view of Usagi walking slowly foward, head down and shoulders
bowed, until she reachs the booth and stops, but by and large
this is one of DiC's better moments.
FW
TCurryFan
>In article ><199807311706...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> tcur...@aol.com (TCurryFan) wrote:
>> >A good soldier does not meddle in civilian affairs,
>> Define "civilian affairs"?
>> >and she is a civilian.
>>
>> No, she's not. She's a "Soldier for Love and Justice".
>> That ain't just a title, buddy.
>
>She might be one technically, but she certanly does not
>possess the heart of one. A nurse, perhaps. She is more
>of a healer type person. I yesterday posted what I
>thought her strengths were, as opposed to the Scouts.
>She is dedicated to good, but not as a warrior. Her
>strength flows from her earnest desire to help people,
>not destroy evil manif estaions, while she might do that
>along the way.
Ok, so, she does what she does to help people. How does that NOT make her a
warrior?
>> I see no difference between her and any other
>> soldier.
>
>If there were just two scouts I had to pick to go on a
>mission, they would be Mars and Jupiter for their
>combative prowess, and mentality.
Again, this is based on What you know from the first two seasons of the
AMERICAN dub. And what about Mercury? As we see in a later episode, having
brains can be useful in a war.
>> So, unless only other soldiers are dying she can get
>> involved? I guess I don't get what you mean by
>> "Soldiers shouldn't get involoved in civilian affairs"...
>
>I mean she does not keep her personal emotion s to
>herself during battle.
Neither does Mars... Actually, I'd be willing to say ALL of them have let
their emotions effect thim in battle at least once (Mercury seems to be the
best about not doing this). As does any soldier. Emotions are not things you
can turn off and on.
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Catherine Johnson.
TCurryFan
>In article
><199807312113...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> tcur...@aol.com (TCurryFan) wrote:
>> "Xplo Eristotle <xp...@infomagic.com>" said:
>>
>> >She's his friend, but she's everybody's friend. They
>> >go out on a date (his idea). He tries pretty hard. But
>> >he never really had a chance..
>
>> I loved the way it went.. With him getting closer and
>> closer... Asking if it's her "first time", telling her "she'll
>> enjoy it"... All the while, she's recalling Haruka's
>> warning not to trust him, and thinking of Mamoru...
>
>No wonder.
Meaning?
And thanks SO much for snipping my description of the next scene...
>I assume she remained faithful.
Yes. I'm not even sure why she agreed to go on the date, really. Though some
of the scenes of them hanging out are really cool. Her bottomless appetite,
the rollercoaster... And the scene at the hauted house, where they're both
scremaing bloody murder... She relaizes that he's holding her *rather tightly*
and pulls away. he stands there a second, still screaming. It's pretty funny.
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Catherine Johnson, who needs to learn to answer the phone properly. ^_^
TCurryFan
>In article
><199807311652...@ladder01.news.aol.
>com>,
>
>> You've seen less then HALF of Sailor Moon, and
>> missed some of the best episodes. I honestly don't
>> think you're in a posiition to judge Usagi's total growth
>> throughtout the series. Read up on what happens in
>> the later seasons before you critisize it, ok?
>
>Through this post I have been getting a great deal of
>answers, friend.
You mean this thread? Fair enough.
>> In one episode, we see "Serena" crying, seemingly
>> without reason... But the reason is that in the original,
>> Raye slapped her.
>
>Good. What episode was that?
The one where Zoicite died I think. Or the one before that.
>> What were YOU doing when you were 14, dear?
>
>Minding my own social business and not getting
>emotionally involved romantically.
What do you mean "social business"? And "not getting emotionally involved
romantically"?
>> (in the later season, she relies on them less and less,
>> btw.
>
>How is that the case?
Ummm.. I'm not sure what you're asking...?
>> Again, get the later episodes before you criticize the
>> setries as a whole). And so what if they do help her?
>> Did Rommel go into Africa by himself?
>
>To lead you are supposed to hearten your troops, not
>have them drag you around a good deal of the time while
>you deal with issues. When a leader is weak, it is a
>tradition honored by time to desert, or fight on your own.
Which the other Senshi some times do.
>Not the most realistic. In the Arctic she might have been
>able to help her friends.
How?
>My Dad died of cancer ten years ago. It hurt me, but I
>recovered.
Same here.
>I do not talk about it much, and it does not show visibly. I
>go about life, and people do not know or think nothing of
>iif they do, as its impact does not show to them. I tkink
>that a visual image of permanent pain would make things
>hit home stronger. This way, it would make the price
>harder to forget. A facial scar, for instance, could be
>used to maximim effectiveness.
Again, I think that's bull.
>> I find the emotional scars-which on one else can see-
>> are far more lasting.
>
>They are, friend, but we speak of a tlelvision audience.
BWHAHAHAH!!!
PLEASE!! How many tv characters, especially in childrens' cartoons, have
scars? Unless they are there for a *specific* reason (usually to make the
charatcer identifiable, or to signify something REALLY major about the plot
[ie, Catherine's scar in _Beauty_and_the_Beast_]), this rarely happens. Even
most _really_ serious adult shows rarely have characters get physically
scarred, no matter what happens to them. Why should SM play by rules no one
else does?
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Catherine Johnson.
noit...@hotmail.com
tcur...@aol.com (TCurryFan) wrote:
> >> >She's his friend, but she's everybody's friend. They
> >> >go out on a date (his idea). He tries pretty hard. But
> >> >he never really had a chance..
> >
> >> I loved the way it went.. With him getting closer and
> >> closer... Asking if it's her "first time", telling her "she'll
> >> enjoy it"... All the while, she's recalling Haruka's
> >> warning not to trust him, and thinking of Mamoru...
> >
> >No wonder.
>
> Meaning?
> And thanks SO much for snipping my description of the next scene...
I am sorry. People in this newsgroup have kept mentioning "snipping," and I
was wondering what it exactly meant. If I was attributing other's words to
myself, it was unintentional.
> >I assume she remained faithful.
>
> Yes. I'm not even sure why she agreed to go on the date, really. Though some
> of the scenes of them hanging out are really cool. Her bottomless appetite,
> the rollercoaster... And the scene at the hauted house, where they're both
> scremaing bloody murder... She relaizes that he's holding her *rather tightly*
> and pulls away. he stands there a second, still screaming. It's pretty funny.
Sounds funny, all right. She is just awfully funny.
noit...@hotmail.com
tcur...@aol.com (TCurryFan) wrote:
> >> No, she's not. She's a "Soldier for Love and Justice".
> >> That ain't just a title, buddy.
> >
> >She might be one technically, but she certanly does not
> >possess the heart of one. A nurse, perhaps. She is more
> >of a healer type person. I yesterday posted what I
> >thought her strengths were, as opposed to the Scouts.
> >She is dedicated to good, but not as a warrior. Her
> >strength flows from her earnest desire to help people,
> >not destroy evil manif estaions, while she might do that
> >along the way.
>
> Ok, so, she does what she does to help people. How does that NOT make her a
> warrior?
She might fight, but she does not have the heart of a warrior. This is not
negative. If she had, that would have come at the expense of some her
greatest strengths, as a warrior shuts down and numbs some key emotions.
> >> I see no difference between her and any other
> >> soldier.
> >
> >If there were just two scouts I had to pick to go on a
> >mission, they would be Mars and Jupiter for their
> >combative prowess, and mentality.
>
> Again, this is based on What you know from the first two seasons of the
> AMERICAN dub. And what about Mercury? As we see in a later episode, having
> brains can be useful in a war.
Yes, but I mean for pure fighting skills.
> >> So, unless only other soldiers are dying she can get
> >> involved? I guess I don't get what you mean by
> >> "Soldiers shouldn't get involoved in civilian affairs"...
> >
> >I mean she does not keep her personal emotion s to
> >herself during battle.
>
> Neither does Mars...
In a way that consistently works to her advantage. She takes it out on her
enemies. Actually, I'd be willing to say ALL of them have let
> their emotions effect thim in battle at least once (Mercury seems to be the
> best about not doing this). As does any soldier. Emotions are not things you
> can turn off and on.
True, but that is part of my point. None of them are the best ofwarriors due
to their high emotional involvement. As for on and off, emotions can be
repressed, but it comes at a high price.
noit...@hotmail.com
tcur...@aol.com (TCurryFan) wrote:
> >> You've seen less then HALF of Sailor Moon, and
> >> missed some of the best episodes. I honestly don't
> >> think you're in a posiition to judge Usagi's total growth
> >> throughtout the series. Read up on what happens in
> >> the later seasons before you critisize it, ok?
> >
> >Through this post I have been getting a great deal of
> >answers, friend.
>
> You mean this thread? Fair enough.
>
> >> In one episode, we see "Serena" crying, seemingly
> >> without reason... But the reason is that in the original,
> >> Raye slapped her.
> >
> >Good. What episode was that?
>
> The one where Zoicite died I think.
Considering what was going on, it makes perfect sense to me. I hope it did
some. good. Or the one before that.
> >> What were YOU doing when you were 14, dear?
> >
> >Minding my own social business and not getting
> >emotionally involved romantically.
>
> What do you mean "social business"? And "not getting emotionally involved
> romantically"?
Not following other's love lives, and not developing one for myself,
especially at that age.
> >> (in the later season, she relies on them less and less,
> >> btw.
> >
> >How is that the case?
>
> Ummm.. I'm not sure what you're asking...?
For examples.
> >> Again, get the later episodes before you criticize the
> >> setries as a whole). And so what if they do help her?
> >> Did Rommel go into Africa by himself?
> >
> >To lead you are supposed to hearten your troops, not
> >have them drag you around a good deal of the time while
> >you deal with issues. When a leader is weak, it is a
> >tradition honored by time to desert, or fight on your own.
> Which the other Senshi some times do.
>
> >Not the most realistic. In the Arctic she might have been
> >able to help her friends.
>
> How?
For starters, not having to keep being pushed along. If they had lived, she
probably would not have done whatshe did, and succeeded.
> >My Dad died of cancer ten years ago. It hurt me, but I
> >recovered.
>
> Same here.
>
> >I do not talk about it much, and it does not show visibly. I
> >go about life, and people do not know or think nothing of
> >iif they do, as its impact does not show to them. I tkink
> >that a visual image of permanent pain would make things
> >hit home stronger. This way, it would make the price
> >harder to forget. A facial scar, for instance, could be
> >used to maximim effectiveness.
>
> Again, I think that's (nonsense).
You do? In a world which has so much warmth, there ought to be a touch of
the frost for reminder.
> >> I find the emotional scars-which on one else can see-
> >> are far more lasting.
> >
> >They are, friend, but we speak of a television audience.
>
> BWHAHAHAH!!!
> PLEASE!! How many tv characters, especially in childrens' cartoons, have
> scars?
Few, as that would be unlovely. All the more reason.
Unless they are there for a *specific* reason (usually to make the
> charatcer identifiable, or to signify something REALLY major about the plot
> [ie, Catherine's scar in _Beauty_and_the_Beast_]), this rarely happens. Even
> most _really_ serious adult shows rarely have characters get physically
> scarred, no matter what happens to them.
Does that make it a good thing? I think not.
Why should SM play by rules no one
> else does?
Because it ought to improve it, probably. There are emotional scars, but I
think it ought not to be relegated to that alone, friend. Do you?
Clarise451
not
>negative. If she had, that would have come at the expense of some her
>greatest strengths, as a warrior shuts down and numbs some key emotions.
This reminds me of the R movie, in which you see both Usagi's greatest
strengths as a friend and as a human being and her greatest weaknesses as a
warrior...I don't want to give *too* much away, but she is at one point faced
with the choice of doing either something which could very likely harm the
entire world or something which would definitely harm her friends. I don't
think I need to tell you what she chooses...but ultimately, it is her humanity
and friendship that save the day. Sailor Moon is not a show in which the
strongest survive. Sailor Moon, for better or worse, is a show in which love
conquers everything from the impending end of the world to burnt cookies.
I think that in the end, this isn't the way life is, and as adults we can and
must learn that. However, I also think that it's a lesson kids can at least
try to use, while they're still young enough to have their illusions. It sure
beats stealing a gun and using it on your classmates.
Sorry for the vagueness regarding the R movie...but inasmuch as such a
beautiful movie *can* be ruined, it was ruined for me, because I knew several
key events beforehand and would have appreciated it more otherwise...let's just
leave it at this: by the time the movie finishes, I am always either singing or
crying.
noit...@hotmail.com
> >She might fight, but she does not have the heart of a warrior. This is
> not
> >negative. If she had, that would have come at the expense of some her
> >greatest strengths, as a warrior shuts down and numbs some key emotions.
>
> This reminds me of the R movie, in which you see both Usagi's greatest
> strengths as a friend and as a human being and her greatest weaknesses as a
> warrior...I don't want to give *too* much away, but she is at one point faced
> with the choice of doing either something which could very likely harm the
> entire world or something which would definitely harm her friends. I don't
> think I need to tell you what she chooses...
So, she does make the choice... No secret passage escape routes away from
the tough decisions as is so often the case today? but ultimately, it is her
humanity
> and friendship that save the day. Sailor Moon is not a show in which the
> strongest survive. Sailor Moon, for better or worse, is a show in which love
> conquers everything from the impending end of the world to burnt cookies.
Love is not just something soft, friend; I hope you also factored that in.
Our choices stem from our highest point of devotion and reverence. The other
things we love radiate from that. Really now, ought not that be the Great
Light, Source, which I talked about earlier? When crisis floods our souls we
go to higher ground. Unless you place your friends over the Source, they
will be swept away on principle if the torrents swell high enough. Pray let
us hope it never befalls us.
> I think that in the end, this isn't the way life is, and as adults we can and
> must learn that. However, I also think that it's a lesson kids can at least
> try to use, while they're still young enough to have their illusions. It sure
> beats stealing a gun and using it on your classmates.
Aye, it does.
> Sorry for the vagueness regarding the R movie...but inasmuch as such a
> beautiful movie *can* be ruined, it was ruined for me, because I knew several
> key events beforehand and would have appreciated it more otherwise...let's just
> leave it at this: by the time the movie finishes, I am always either singing or
> crying.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
noit...@hotmail.com
z...@etel.ru wrote:
> <HTML>
> If you're interesting for that subject , you may go to
I must admit, friends, that when I entered this newsgroup, that I thought
that Sailor Moon fans were in general all a bunch of mind-numbed,
unreasonable fanatics with a mob mentality (and a few or so with lust
problems, to say the least).
I was wrong.
While I still have my suspicions concerning the last part, I have instead
found you to be caring in nature, spiritually minded, and take others
seriously. I have actually found a great deal in common with you. You care
enough to argue over what you care, and that is good. I have found this to
be not so elsewhere. You also think about what priorities ought to be, and
what is truly right.
Ruth Reamer
>
> In article <35C2D3B8...@etel.ru>,
> z...@etel.ru wrote:
> > <HTML>
> > If you're interesting for that subject , you may go to
>
> I must admit, friends, that when I entered this newsgroup, that I thought
> that Sailor Moon fans were in general all a bunch of mind-numbed,
> unreasonable fanatics with a mob mentality (and a few or so with lust
> problems, to say the least).
>
> I was wrong.
>
> While I still have my suspicions concerning the last part, I have instead
> found you to be caring in nature, spiritually minded, and take others
> seriously. I have actually found a great deal in common with you. You care
> enough to argue over what you care, and that is good. I have found this to
> be not so elsewhere. You also think about what priorities ought to be, and
> what is truly right.
And we learned all this from Bishujo Senshi Sailormoon, right everyone?
*looks around* Right, everyone?!?! *silence* Ah come on! Everything
I need to know I learned from Sailormoon! Anyone else?
Sailor Sun
~I'm in a great and silly mood. My fansubs are on their way!!!!!!!
*cheers* I was so afraid my order had been lost in the mail since I
sent cash, but it made it!! My fansub withdrawl will end soon!~
Clemens 'Gullevek' Schwaighofer
>
> noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <35C2D3B8...@etel.ru>,
> > z...@etel.ru wrote:
> > > <HTML>
> > > If you're interesting for that subject , you may go to
> >
> > I must admit, friends, that when I entered this newsgroup, that I thought
> > that Sailor Moon fans were in general all a bunch of mind-numbed,
> > unreasonable fanatics with a mob mentality (and a few or so with lust
> > problems, to say the least).
> >
> > I was wrong.
> >
> > While I still have my suspicions concerning the last part, I have instead
> > found you to be caring in nature, spiritually minded, and take others
> > seriously. I have actually found a great deal in common with you. You care
> > enough to argue over what you care, and that is good. I have found this to
> > be not so elsewhere. You also think about what priorities ought to be, and
> > what is truly right.
>
> And we learned all this from Bishujo Senshi Sailormoon, right everyone?
> *looks around* Right, everyone?!?! *silence* Ah come on! Everything
> I need to know I learned from Sailormoon! Anyone else?
We learned it from you goddess Sailor Moon. I have a Sailor Moon Shrine
in my room and every evening I pray to her ... ^_^;;
--
_________/\_____________________ ... ^_^ . ()~()
Clemens 'Gullevek' Schwaighofer \_______ @_@ :::::~~~..ททจจจ //@ @\\
ICQ#: 9646646 I AM FROM AUSTRIA! \______________ *_* //\ ~ /\\
Sailor Moon Homepage: http://members.xoom.com/gullevek \_____________
noit...@hotmail.com
> > > I must admit, friends, that when I entered this newsgroup, that I thought
> > > that Sailor Moon fans were in general all a bunch of mind-numbed,
> > > unreasonable fanatics with a mob mentality (and a few or so with lust
> > > problems, to say the least).
> > >
> > > I was wrong.
> > >
> > > While I still have my suspicions concerning the last part, I have instead
> > > found you to be caring in nature, spiritually minded, and take others
> > > seriously. I have actually found a great deal in common with you. You care
> > > enough to argue over what you care, and that is good. I have found this to
> > > be not so elsewhere. You also think about what priorities ought to be, and
> > > what is truly right.
> >
> > And we learned all this from Bishujo Senshi Sailormoon, right everyone?
> > *looks around* Right, everyone?!?! *silence* Ah come on! Everything
> > I need to know I learned from Sailormoon! Anyone else?
No, but I do think that you were attracted to the show based in part on
attributes which I admire.
> We learned it from you goddess Sailor Moon. I have a Sailor Moon Shrine
> in my room and every evening I pray to her ...
Sorry to hear it, friend.
noit...@hotmail.com
noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <35C2D3B8...@etel.ru>,
> z...@etel.ru wrote:
> > <HTML>
> > If you're interesting for that subject , you may go to
>
> that Sailor Moon fans were in general all a bunch of mind-numbed,
> unreasonable fanatics with a mob mentality (and a few or so with lust
> problems, to say the least).
>
> I was wrong.
>
> While I still have my suspicions concerning the last part, I have instead
> found you to be caring in nature, spiritually minded, and take others
> seriously. I have actually found a great deal in common with you. You care
> enough to argue over what you care, and that is good. I have found this to
> be not so elsewhere. You also think about what priorities ought to be, and
> what is truly right.
I was thinking, friends, on the issue of sacrifice, and for what exactly you
do it. In Sailor Moon, we have hostage situations. Good requires that you
sacrifice for that which is higher. Good cannot be held hostage by evil. It
might cost some lives, but good is also impartial and unbending, not entirely
soft. Also on the last episode of Sailor Moon, the Moonlight Knight tells
Sailor Venus to believe in herself. "Whyy not? Look at how many already
do." Friends, since when has giving into hero worship been a good thing?
Just because you want something to be true, it might motivate you, but it
does not make it so. Ought we not to place our faith in the Great Light, the
Source, instead of our fallible selves?
Frank White
>I must admit, friends, that when I entered this newsgroup, that I thought
>that Sailor Moon fans were in general all a bunch of mind-numbed,
>unreasonable fanatics with a mob mentality (and a few or so with lust
>problems, to say the least).
Yep, that sounds like us. :)
>I was wrong.
O_O
>While I still have my suspicions concerning the last part, I have instead
>found you to be caring in nature, spiritually minded, and take others
>seriously. I have actually found a great deal in common with you. You care
>enough to argue over what you care, and that is good. I have found this to
>be not so elsewhere. You also think about what priorities ought to be, and
>what is truly right.
Thank you, thank you.
Frankly, it's been fun having you here, too. It is in explaining
things to others that we explain them to ourselves, and trying to
answer your probing (and not very easy or comfortable) questions
have force me at least to examine more closely my own feelings
and thought about Sailor Moon. It has been an enlightening
experience.
Thanks.
I hope you'll stick around. And get some of the subtitled tapes,
so you can see what Sailor Moon is like in the original version.
Best,
FW
noit...@hotmail.com
noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > I must admit, friends, that when I entered this newsgroup, that I thought
> > that Sailor Moon fans were in general all a bunch of mind-numbed,
> > unreasonable fanatics with a mob mentality (and a few or so with lust
> > problems, to say the least).
> >
> >
> > While I still have my suspicions concerning the last part, I have instead
> > found you to be caring in nature, spiritually minded, and take others
> > seriously. I have actually found a great deal in common with you. You care
> > enough to argue over what you care, and that is good. I have found this to
> > be not so elsewhere. You also think about what priorities ought to be, and
> > what is truly right.
>
> do it. In Sailor Moon, we have hostage situations. Good requires that you
> sacrifice for that which is higher. Good cannot be held hostage by evil. It
> might cost some lives, but good is also impartial and unbending, not entirely
> soft. Also on the last episode of Sailor Moon, the Moonlight Knight tells
> Sailor Venus to believe in herself. "Whyy not? Look at how many already
> do." Friends, since when has giving into hero worship been a good thing?
> Just because you want something to be true, it might motivate you, but it
> does not make it so. Ought we not to place our faith in the Great Light, the
> Source, instead of our fallible selves?
I saw A Crystal Clear Destiny some weeks ago, so I will speak on the subject.
I liked it. Darien was hurt, feared he would die, but kept on. His
soldierlike courage noble and loyal, not as Tuxedo Mask, but simply as he
truly was. As he goes, he runs across Serena by coincidence, and follows him
because she is concerned. One thing that I like about her is she is not
sneaky in nature, somehow, no matter what she does. As he will most likely
die, he mends fences with her. They discover who the other really is,
increasing respect. Darien stops insulting her. Hasty plot resolution,
though. In the fight, Darien gets stabbed in back. It ends with Darien
slowly dying, Serena crying, and and the rainbow crystals reuniting to form
the Imperium Silver Crystal, transforming Serena into PrincessSerenity, as a
sad love love song plays in the background. What I admired most was Darien's
courage. This is what I want to see in the show, and I got it there.
noit...@hotmail.com
Yesterday I saw the one where Serena helps Darien babysit. Apart from
Serena's getting upset after seeing Ann leave the apartment, which was
foolish and stupid, it showed Serena at the best I have seen her. It showed
her dealing with loving somone who has completely forgot her. That is
touching. That is what it means to love: Without reciprocation, you still
continue. She has learned to tolerate his insults, too. It shows that she
has advanced in her feelings. Also, I just loved that scene where she and
Darien are sitting on the bed while Darien is holding the baby. She is
thinking how hopes "to have a nice, happy family like this one some day," and
she starts leaning on Darien, he looks at her in surprise, and she catches
herself, then changes the subject. That is the finest scene I have yet to
see on Sailor Moon. It the shows the vaunted character development you have
told about. This was the most romantic episode I have yet seen. I have
followed all episodes from the midpoint of season one to one episode past
this point anyone disagree?
noit...@hotmail.com
Has this post stagnated, friends? I hope not. I have a lot more respect for
the Sailor Moon of the second season then the first one. There is
essentially none of the stupid things that she keeps committing in the first
one. I hope that I do not have to bash Sailor Moon simply to gain responses,
my friends. I am not a raving madman, you know, that cannot say anything
positive. You seem to be rewarding extremists. I will no doubt return to
criticism in a while, but right now, the recent episodes have been quite
enjoyable. My big disgust is this, friends: Why not use the Star Locket, or
Luna mindmeld on Darien? It makes sense; why not?
Marie Kelly
> Has this post stagnated, friends? I hope not.
So do I. While I haven't really been a participant in this thread, I've been reading it
avidly, and must say, you are one of the best "outsiders" we've ever had in this
newsgroup. Honestly, this thread is far better than the plethora of stuff like "POLL:
Which pair of Serena's socks is your favorite?".
> I have a lot more respect for the Sailor Moon of the second season then the first
> one. There is essentially none of the stupid things that she keeps committing in the
> first one. I hope that I do not have to bash Sailor Moon simply to gain responses, my
> friends.
Oh, so do I. Though you might do well to know, that season 2, is divided into two parts.
I think Serena acts rather well in both of them, though Darien really isn't there.
In fact, one of my favorite season 2, part 2 scenes, is when Serena, Rini, and Darien
are walking down the street together. Things aren't all peachy keen betwen Serena and
Darien, and Serena and Rini argue constantly. But, in that comfort, Rini reaches up and
takes Serena's hand. It lasts for the shortest time, but for that moment, they all look
perfectly happy.
And, hmmm, was this cut from dub? There's a great Usagi/Rei scene right after Chibiusa
turns into Black Lady. Usagi is worrying about her, and Rei comes over and puts her arm
around Usagi's shoulder, comforting her. I believe that's one of my favorite Usagi/Rei
scenes.
> I am not a raving madman, you know, that cannot say anything
> positive. You seem to be rewarding extremists. I will no doubt return to
> criticism in a while, but right now, the recent episodes have been quite
> enjoyable.
Well, I'm glad you like them. It's been suggested that one ought to try to get some of
the later seasons. Usagi is so different in the final season as compared to the first
one. At times, I'll watch both seasons one after another, and I find it hard to believe
that the girl who whined, cried, ate everything, and complained is the same girl who,
smiling through tears, said goodbye to Mamoru at the airport, wanting him to stay, yet
knowing she couldn't be selfish enough to keep him away; the same flighty, air-headed
ditz who had crushes on two different boys is the girl who keeps writing to Mamoru,
though he doesn't write back, loving him immensely, and trusting that he has a reason
for what he's doing, and really does love her. In Stars, she doesn't wail, whine, and
run away from fights. She has definately changed.
Kind of amazing, considering how much she reverted back to the old Usagi in SuperS.
> My big disgust is this, friends: Why not use the Star Locket, or Luna mindmeld on
> Darien? It makes sense; why not?
Ummm...she didn't want to? Not much of a reason, but it's all I have. Maybe it wasn't
possible, or Luna decided that Cape Boy wasn't needed since Turban Boy was there?
Marie
Trixie
>In article <6qb74i$6hg$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> In article <6q9re9$ved$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>> noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > > soft. Also on the last episode of Sailor Moon, the Moonlight Knight tells
>> > > Sailor Venus to believe in herself. "Whyy not? Look at how many already
>> > > do." Friends, since when has giving into hero worship been a good thing?
>> > > Just because you want something to be true, it might motivate you,
but it
>> > > does not make it so. Ought we not to place our faith in the Great
Light, the
>> > > Source, instead of our fallible selves?
If you notice, Sailor Venus felt defeated. I think he meant for her to
have confidence in herself, to keep trying. The children cheering her on
reminded her of why she was fighting. After he encouraged Sailor Venus and
she saw the children were really depending on her to help, she found the
courage to fight harder (and come up with a new attack). I don't think the
message was that Sailor Venus should engage in self worship or hope to be
idolized as a hero.
>> Yesterday I saw the one where Serena helps Darien babysit. Apart from
>> Serena's getting upset after seeing Ann leave the apartment, which was
>> foolish and stupid,
Maybe she thought all her suffering (being forgotten, insulted) was for
naught and had an understandable moment of panic.
it showed Serena at the best I have seen her. It showed
>> her dealing with loving somone who has completely forgot her. That is
>> touching. That is what it means to love: Without reciprocation, you still
>> continue.
That may be true for this particular case.
She has learned to tolerate his insults, too. It shows that she
>> has advanced in her feelings.
Well, really, it would be better if he could stop dispensing his insults.
Also, I just loved that scene where she and
>> Darien are sitting on the bed while Darien is holding the baby. She is
>> thinking how hopes "to have a nice, happy family like this one some day," and
>> she starts leaning on Darien, he looks at her in surprise, and she catches
>> herself, then changes the subject. That is the finest scene I have yet to
>> see on Sailor Moon. It the shows the vaunted character development you have
>> told about. This was the most romantic episode I have yet seen. I have
>> followed all episodes from the midpoint of season one to one episode past
>> this point anyone disagree?
I think this is the first opportunity they've really had for a romantic
moment... after all, a lot of their encounters were/are during fights with
the bad guys.
>
>Has this post stagnated, friends? I hope not. I have a lot more respect for
>the Sailor Moon of the second season then the first one. There is
>essentially none of the stupid things that she keeps committing in the first
>one. I hope that I do not have to bash Sailor Moon simply to gain responses,
>my friends. I am not a raving madman, you know, that cannot say anything
>positive. You seem to be rewarding extremists. I will no doubt return to
>criticism in a while, but right now, the recent episodes have been quite
>enjoyable.
Well, there's no guaranteed way to get responses on a post. I think
everyone who has been following this thread can see that you now see some
merit in Sailor Moon. But... I'm responding just to make you feel not so
lonely. I, for one, don't really like extremists who only want to
complain. They're not much fun.
My big disgust is this, friends: Why not use the Star Locket, or
>Luna mindmeld on Darien? It makes sense; why not?
Maybe she can't. After all, he was the Prince of the Earth in the olden
days. So, maybe he's someone Luna's mind thingie won't work on. After all,
she didn't "activate" him like she did Usagi and the other senshi (except
for Venus who was "activated" by Artemis) in the earlier episodes.
Sailor Trixie
Michi-chan
>
> My big disgust is this, friends: Why not use the Star Locket, or
> Luna mindmeld on Darien? It makes sense; why not?
You will see in a few episodes that doing that would have been
impossible.
--
Michi-chan
z t s u k i n o @ g e o c i t i e s . c o m
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/4940/
Phoenix
>avidly, and must say, you are one of the best "outsiders" we've ever had in this
>newsgroup. Honestly, this thread is far better than the plethora of stuff like "POLL:
>Which pair of Serena's socks is your favorite?".
Those aren't her socks. That was a dub manufacture.
NTL, I like the bunny ones the best.
Phoenix ;{)
(Sorry, I couldn't resist ^_^)
Phoenix ;{) http://www.jacksonville.net/~phoenix/
MoonieCode(1.8.6) SM:6-[1+] F:sCh+In:vPp+Ir:aHe:pSS
D:sSt> X:a6r|110s+++|82d+:m1r|11d++ O:d+:s+:o+:a-:h+[+]
P:a45:s59:w+:f:eBg[z]:hBrm:cW:y:r+|-
Frank White
>Yesterday I saw the one where Serena helps Darien babysit. Apart from
>Serena's getting upset after seeing Ann leave the apartment, which was
>foolish and stupid
Well, Serena/Usagi is a 14 year old girl, after all, in love with
a man who doesn't remember what they mean to each other; she's
afraid of losing him and unsure of her appeal; Ann is pretty and
clever and WOW, aggressive, and she was actually COMING OUT OF
DARIEN'S APARTMENT: Under the circumstances, I think a bit of
panic was understandable...
>, it showed Serena at the best I have seen her. It showed
>her dealing with loving somone who has completely forgot her. That is
>touching. That is what it means to love: Without reciprocation, you still
>continue. She has learned to tolerate his insults, too. It shows that she
>has advanced in her feelings.
Advanced and become more sure of.
>Also, I just loved that scene where she and
>Darien are sitting on the bed while Darien is holding the baby. She is
>thinking how hopes "to have a nice, happy family like this one some day," and
>she starts leaning on Darien, he looks at her in surprise, and she catches
>herself, then changes the subject. That is the finest scene I have yet to
>see on Sailor Moon. It the shows the vaunted character development you have
>told about. This was the most romantic episode I have yet seen. I have
>followed all episodes from the midpoint of season one to one episode past
>this point anyone disagree?
It IS one of the most quietly romantic and enjoyable moments in the
show up to that time.
Fortunately, we get more of them.
And if you think Usagi's developed so far, then you ain't seen nothing
yet.
FW
Pamela Jo Reamer
>
> noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Has this post stagnated, friends? I hope not.
>
> So do I. While I haven't really been a participant in this thread, I've been reading it
> avidly, and must say, you are one of the best "outsiders" we've ever had in this
> newsgroup. Honestly, this thread is far better than the plethora of stuff like "POLL:
> Which pair of Serena's socks is your favorite?".
Hehehe...hmmm....I've never paid much attention to her socks. I'll
watch a couple of eps and get back to you on that. ^_-
> > My big disgust is this, friends: Why not use the Star Locket, or Luna mindmeld on
> > Darien? It makes sense; why not?
>
> Ummm...she didn't want to? Not much of a reason, but it's all I have. Maybe it wasn't
> possible, or Luna decided that Cape Boy wasn't needed since Turban Boy was there?
>
Does she still even have the Star Locket after the first season? And I
think Luna didn't do the mind meld because he wasn't NEEDED. Wanted,
yes, but she probably knew that she shouldn't make him remembered, that
he needed to do it on his own, and that he eventually would. It
wouldn't be right for her to force back the memories of anyone else,
after renewing the Sailors' memories. She was reluctant to do that,
even.
Sailor Sun
~Why oh why did "It's a Small World" suddenly start running through my
mind. I'm scared...~
> Marie
noit...@hotmail.com
Michi-chan <mich...@michi.net> wrote:
> noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > My big disgust is this, friends: Why not use the Star Locket, or
> > Luna mindmeld on Darien? It makes sense; why not?
>
> impossible.
That is nice to know, but why have they not tried yet, unless Luna and
Artemis already know what the situaion is? Anyway, unless they have told
Serena that it is impossible, why has she not tried at least using the Star
Locket, instead of pictorial art?
noit...@hotmail.com
> >> > > soft. Also on the last episode of Sailor Moon, the Moonlight Knight tells
> >> > > do." Friends, since when has giving into hero worship been a good thing?
> >> > > Just because you want something to be true, it might motivate you,
> but it
> >> > > does not make it so. Ought we not to place our faith in the Great
> Light, the
> >> > > Source, instead of our fallible selves?
>
> If you notice, Sailor Venus felt defeated.
I think he meant for her to
> have confidence in herself, to keep trying.
Then he ought to have said that. Instead, he was going for the broader
sense. It could definitely mislead people. I dislike his speeches, as they
are so terribly slanted, and a mouthpiece for those who run the show to get
their largely psychological points across, which are not that hot, anyway.
The children cheering her on
> reminded her of why she was fighting. After he encouraged Sailor Venus and
> she saw the children were really depending on her to help, she found the
> courage to fight harder (and come up with a new attack). I don't think the
> message was that Sailor Venus should engage in self worship or hope to be
> idolized as a hero.
I hope not, too. She is the most polished scout, and reminds me of all the
better qualities of my older sister, but minus most of her personality
defects. She possesses the most common sense of all the Scouts. Amy does
not count; she is a genius, which is uncommonsense, although she has her
share of that, too.
> >> Yesterday I saw the one where Serena helps Darien babysit. Apart from
> >> Serena's getting upset after seeing Ann leave the apartment, which was
> >> foolish and stupid,
>
> Maybe she thought all her suffering (being forgotten, insulted) was for
> naught and had an understandable moment of panic.
Plausible. I think it would have had better if she had said nothing, started
crying and ran, b=ut that would would have left out the crucial turning point
with the baby walking.
> it showed Serena at the best I have seen her. It showed
> >> her dealing with loving somone who has completely forgot her. That is
> >> touching. That is what it means to love: Without reciprocation, you still
> >> continue.
>
> That may be true for this particular case.
What do you mean by that, friend? Of course, you do not have to. It is a
choice. But if you truly intend to love somone... You continue, regardless.
> She has learned to tolerate his insults, too. It shows that she
> >> has advanced in her feelings.
>
> Well, really, it would be better if he could stop dispensing his insults.
Of course, but he does not remember that he promised not to.
> Also, I just loved that scene where she and
> >> Darien are sitting on the bed while Darien is holding the baby. She is
> >> thinking how hopes "to have a nice, happy family like this one some day," and
> >> she starts leaning on Darien, he looks at her in surprise, and she catches
> >> herself, then changes the subject. That is the finest scene I have yet to
> >> see on Sailor Moon. It the shows the vaunted character development you have
> >> told about. This was the most romantic episode I have yet seen. I have
> >> followed all episodes from the midpoint of season one to one episode past
> >> this point anyone disagree?
>
> I think this is the first opportunity they've really had for a romantic
> moment... after all, a lot of their encounters were/are during fights with
> the bad guys.
A good observation.
> >Has this post stagnated, friends? I hope not. I have a lot more respect for
> >the Sailor Moon of the second season then the first one. There is
> >essentially none of the stupid things that she keeps committing in the first
> >one. I hope that I do not have to bash Sailor Moon simply to gain responses,
> >my friends. I am not a raving madman, you know, that cannot say anything
> >positive. You seem to be rewarding extremists. I will no doubt return to
> >criticism in a while, but right now, the recent episodes have been quite
> >enjoyable.
>
> Well, there's no guaranteed way to get responses on a post.
Yes, but I was disappointed by the lack of response. Experience had made me
anticipate more. I think
> everyone who has been following this thread can see that you now see some
> merit in Sailor Moon. But... I'm responding just to make you feel not so
> lonely. I, for one, don't really like extremists who only want to
> complain. They're not much fun.
Nor I. Try to attack only when I feel that I have an axe to grind.
Otherwise, I would be a mere rabble rouser wanabe.
> My big disgust is this, friends: Why not use the Star Locket, or
> >Luna mindmeld on Darien? It makes sense; why not?
>
> Maybe she can't. After all, he was the Prince of the Earth in the olden
> days. So, maybe he's someone Luna's mind thingie won't work on.
Serena was Princess of the Moon in the olden days, and it worked just fine
on her. After all,
> she didn't "activate" him like she did Usagi and the other senshi (except
> for Venus who was "activated" by Artemis) in the earlier episodes.
You know? I was wondering about that. Alan and Ann are interesting
characters. It looks like Alan took lessons from the Pied Piper. They seem
attracted to humanity when separated, but show contempt of it when together.
I can sympathize that they are trying just to stay alive, but they are still
quite nasty. The last episode where Lita was talking to Alan about food was
interesting. He actually got something out of the conversation. There
appears to be hope for them. I hope so. Perhaps their nastiness will win
out, though. They are interesting character studies.
As for Lita, she is back in character after the one episode where she was
concerned about that guy she had always been friends with. She was not
herself. That song with those images made no sense to me. Perhaps it makes
more sense subtitled or to a Japanese audience.
Michi-chan
>
> In article <6qdids$s2h$1...@news-2.news.gte.net>,
> Michi-chan <mich...@michi.net> wrote:
> > noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Luna mindmeld on Darien? It makes sense; why not?
> >
> > impossible.
>
> That is nice to know, but why have they not tried yet, unless Luna and
> Artemis already know what the situaion is?
Probably haven't had a chance yet.
> Anyway, unless they have told
> Serena that it is impossible, why has she not tried at least using the Star
> Locket, instead of pictorial art?
I doubt she still has it. She doesn't have her wand anymore.
Trixie
>> >> > > soft. Also on the last episode of Sailor Moon, the Moonlight
Knight tells
>> >> > > Sailor Venus to believe in herself. "Why not? Look at how many
already
>> >> > > do." Friends, since when has giving into hero worship been a
good thing?
>> >> > > Just because you want something to be true, it might motivate you,
>> but it
>> >> > > does not make it so. Ought we not to place our faith in the Great
>> Light, the
>> >> > > Source, instead of our fallible selves?
>>
>> If you notice, Sailor Venus felt defeated.
>Yes.
> I think he meant for her to
>> have confidence in herself, to keep trying.
>
>Then he ought to have said that. Instead, he was going for the broader
>sense. It could definitely mislead people. I dislike his speeches, as they
>are so terribly slanted, and a mouthpiece for those who run the show to get
>their largely psychological points across, which are not that hot, anyway.
Well, I just took it as a "pep talk." I think he thought his more flowery
speech would sound better to her than, "Get up off your little
sailor-suited butt before you and these kiddies are killed!" Sailor Venus
did seem pretty inspired by the whole thing and she didn't declare herself
a goddess, so I think it just gave her more confidence.
>The children cheering her on
>
>> reminded her of why she was fighting. After he encouraged Sailor Venus and
>> she saw the children were really depending on her to help, she found the
>> courage to fight harder (and come up with a new attack). I don't think the
>> message was that Sailor Venus should engage in self worship or hope to be
>> idolized as a hero.
>
>I hope not, too. She is the most polished scout, and reminds me of all the
>better qualities of my older sister, but minus most of her personality
>defects. She possesses the most common sense of all the Scouts. Amy does
>not count; she is a genius, which is uncommonsense, although she has her
>share of that, too.
I think Sailor Venus is the way she is because she was on her own as
Sailor V for a while. Amy is very good at solving problems which is more
than her just being smart.
>
>> >> Yesterday I saw the one where Serena helps Darien babysit. Apart from
>> >> Serena's getting upset after seeing Ann leave the apartment, which was
>> >> foolish and stupid,
>>
>> Maybe she thought all her suffering (being forgotten, insulted) was for
>> naught and had an understandable moment of panic.
>
>Plausible. I think it would have had better if she had said nothing, started
>crying and ran, b=ut that would would have left out the crucial turning point
>with the baby walking.
Well, that's not really her personality... especially since this was _Ann_
who she'd had some run-ins with already. Maybe if it had been a different
girl, she would have reacted differently.
>
>> it showed Serena at the best I have seen her. It showed
>> >> her dealing with loving somone who has completely forgot her. That is
>> >> touching. That is what it means to love: Without reciprocation,
you still
>> >> continue.
>>
>> That may be true for this particular case.
>
>What do you mean by that, friend? Of course, you do not have to. It is a
>choice. But if you truly intend to love somone... You continue, regardless.
Well, in RL if someone doesn't want your love, it's better to go on your
way. Sailor Moon is a TV show where the characters are "destined to be
together," so, it makes sense in that context.
>
>> She has learned to tolerate his insults, too. It shows that she
>> >> has advanced in her feelings.
>>
>> Well, really, it would be better if he could stop dispensing his insults.
>Of course, but he does not remember that he promised not to.
Well... most people don't need a remembered promise to refrain from
insulting people...
>> Well, there's no guaranteed way to get responses on a post.
>
>Yes, but I was disappointed by the lack of response. Experience had made me
>anticipate more. I think
Hmmmmm.. maybe we've been spoiling you....
>> My big disgust is this, friends: Why not use the Star Locket, or
>> >Luna mindmeld on Darien? It makes sense; why not?
Oh yeah... the Star Locket... I don't think Usagi/Sailor Moon has it any
more. I think she lost it along with her wand when she was sent back to
Earth after defeating Queen Beryl/Metalla. If she had it, she would
_definitely_ have used it because Usagi desperately wants him to remember
her.
>>
>> Maybe she can't. After all, he was the Prince of the Earth in the olden
>> days. So, maybe he's someone Luna's mind thingie won't work on.
>
>Serena was Princess of the Moon in the olden days, and it worked just fine
>on her. After all,
Yeah, but Luna was on the moon with her and Queen Serenity. Queen Serenity
sent Luna and Artemis through time to help Princess Serenity and the
Senshi. Prince Endymion wasn't part of that gig. Remember when all the
senshi discovered who they really were and their powers... Mamoru didn't
discover his identity and powers the same way at all.
>
>> she didn't "activate" him like she did Usagi and the other senshi (except
>> for Venus who was "activated" by Artemis) in the earlier episodes.
>
>You know? I was wondering about that. Alan and Ann are interesting
>characters. It looks like Alan took lessons from the Pied Piper. They seem
>attracted to humanity when separated, but show contempt of it when together.
>I can sympathize that they are trying just to stay alive, but they are still
>quite nasty.
They are different from the other villians. They aren't part of the
"Negaverse," that's a dub invention, I guess to tie all the villians
together or something.
The last episode where Lita was talking to Alan about food was
>interesting. He actually got something out of the conversation. There
>appears to be hope for them. I hope so. Perhaps their nastiness will win
>out, though. They are interesting character studies.
Yes, they are interesting. But, don't ask too many questions about them
yet... you'll find out their background in a few days, you'll enjoy seeing
for yourself.
Sailor Trix
Pamela Jo Reamer
> > Which pair of Serena's socks is your favorite?".
>
> Hehehe...hmmm....I've never paid much attention to her socks. I'll
> watch a couple of eps and get back to you on that. ^_-
Oh no. I had a dream last night about Usagi and her socks. She was
wearing really neat ones with the Senshi on them. I need to be careful
of what I read before I go to sleep. First the mistress 9 nightmare,
then I was Sailor Saturn or something, now I'm dreaming about Usagi's
socks. Whoa.
Sailor Sun
~Even scarier is when my SM dreams are combined with Matthew Lawerence,
and stuff from Johnny Quest. That happened in the Saturn dream.~
Frank White
>In article <trixie678-060...@user-37kb8cr.dialup.mindspring.com>,
>trix...@hotmail.com says...
<snip>
>> >Has this post stagnated, friends? I hope not. I have a lot more respect for
>> >the Sailor Moon of the second season then the first one. There is
>> >essentially none of the stupid things that she keeps committing in the first
>> >one. I hope that I do not have to bash Sailor Moon simply to gain responses,
>> >my friends. I am not a raving madman, you know, that cannot say anything
>> >positive. You seem to be rewarding extremists. I will no doubt return to
>> >criticism in a while, but right now, the recent episodes have been quite
>> >enjoyable.
>>
>> Well, there's no guaranteed way to get responses on a post.
>
>Yes, but I was disappointed by the lack of response. Experience had made me
>anticipate more. I think
Sometimes you get more, sometimes you get less. There is no way to
predict what will attract people's attention and set off a long
thread. *I* sure the heck never thought this Love Calculator bit
would go on as long as it has, after all!
All you can do is keep posting. Soone or later you'll strike more
sparks.
<snip>
>> My big disgust is this, friends: Why not use the Star Locket, or
>> >Luna mindmeld on Darien? It makes sense; why not?
>>
>> Maybe she can't. After all, he was the Prince of the Earth in the olden
>> days. So, maybe he's someone Luna's mind thingie won't work on.
Logically that has to be true. If Luna COULD restore Darien's
memory she would, because that would mean Tuxedo Mask would be
back in action helping them against this new threat. Since she
doesn't try (that we see, anyway), it must be because she is
sure it won't work.
Also, I think the Star Locket bit it in the confrontation with
Beryl. I know the Moon Wand did, since we saw it vanishing
into the Silver Crystal's energy ball after Usagi. As for the
Crystal itself, well, you'll find out.
>Serena was Princess of the Moon in the olden days, and it worked just fine
>on her. After all,
>
>> she didn't "activate" him like she did Usagi and the other senshi (except
>> for Venus who was "activated" by Artemis) in the earlier episodes.
>
>You know? I was wondering about that. Alan and Ann are interesting
>characters. It looks like Alan took lessons from the Pied Piper. They seem
>attracted to humanity when separated, but show contempt of it when together.
>I can sympathize that they are trying just to stay alive, but they are still
>quite nasty. The last episode where Lita was talking to Alan about food was
>interesting. He actually got something out of the conversation. There
>appears to be hope for them. I hope so. Perhaps their nastiness will win
>out, though. They are interesting character studies.
In the original episodes, they're less nasty but you get more of a
sense of desperation about them. They know that if the Tree dies,
they die; and they regard humans - most humans - as prey. It's not
so much that they're evil as that they don't care who they have to
hurt to keep themselves alive.
>As for Lita, she is back in character after the one episode where she was
>concerned about that guy she had always been friends with. She was not
>herself. That song with those images made no sense to me. Perhaps it makes
>more sense subtitled or to a Japanese audience.
This was apparently a flashback to her boyfriend 'Freddy' giving her
the brushoff.
In the original you want to take a 2x4 and nail him repeatedly over
the head for breaking her heart like that. And also for being DUMB
enough to walk away from someone that wonderful.
FW
noit...@hotmail.com
> >> >> > > soft. Also on the last episode of Sailor Moon, the Moonlight
> Knight tells
> >> >> > > Sailor Venus to believe in herself. "Why not? Look at how many
> already
> >> >> > > do." Friends, since when has giving into hero worship been a
> good thing?
> >> >> > > Just because you want something to be true, it might motivate you,
> >> but it
> >> >> > > does not make it so. Ought we not to place our faith in the Great
> >> Light, the
> >> >> > > Source, instead of our fallible selves?
> >>
> >> If you notice, Sailor Venus felt defeated.
> >Yes.
> > I think he meant for her to
> >> have confidence in herself, to keep trying.
> >
> >Then he ought to have said that. Instead, he was going for the broader
> >sense. It could definitely mislead people. I dislike his speeches, as they
> >are so terribly slanted, and a mouthpiece for those who run the show to get
> >their largely psychological points across, which are not that hot, anyway.
>
> Well, I just took it as a "pep talk." I think he thought his more flowery
> speech would sound better to her than, "Get up off your little
> sailor-suited butt before you and these kiddies are killed!" Sailor Venus
> did seem pretty inspired by the whole thing and she didn't declare herself
> a goddess, so I think it just gave her more confidence.
Yes, but it was less-then-sound philosophy. It will ultimately prove costly,
if truly followed, and there were no reservations to it by Venus.
> >The children cheering her on
> >
> >> reminded her of why she was fighting. After he encouraged Sailor Venus and
> >> she saw the children were really depending on her to help, she found the
> >> courage to fight harder (and come up with a new attack). I don't think the
> >> message was that Sailor Venus should engage in self worship or hope to be
> >> idolized as a hero.
Nor I, but that is essentially what he is saying, following to its logical
end. To be of any use, it must be in that situation only. I t was spoken as
a truth, unfortunately.
> >I hope not, too. She is the most polished scout, and reminds me of all the
> >better qualities of my older sister, but minus most of her personality
> >defects. She possesses the most common sense of all the Scouts. Amy does
> >not count; she is a genius, which is uncommonsense, although she has her
> >share of that, too.
>
> I think Sailor Venus is the way she is because she was on her own as
> Sailor V for a while. Amy is very good at solving problems which is more
> than her just being smart.
>
> >
> >> >> Yesterday I saw the one where Serena helps Darien babysit. Apart from
> >> >> Serena's getting upset after seeing Ann leave the apartment, which was
> >> >> foolish and stupid,
> >>
> >> Maybe she thought all her suffering (being forgotten, insulted) was for
> >> naught and had an understandable moment of panic.
> >
> >Plausible. I think it would have had better if she had said nothing, started
> >crying and ran, b=ut that would would have left out the crucial turning point
> >with the baby walking.
>
> Well, that's not really her personality... especially since this was _Ann_
> who she'd had some run-ins with already. Maybe if it had been a different
> girl, she would have reacted differently.
Quite possibly, but she still ought not to have done it.
> >> it showed Serena at the best I have seen her. It showed
> >> >> her dealing with loving somone who has completely forgot her. That is
> >> >> touching. That is what it means to love: Without reciprocation,
> you still
> >> >> continue.
> >>
> >> That may be true for this particular case.
> >
> >What do you mean by that, friend? Of course, you do not have to. It is a
> >choice. But if you truly intend to love somone... You continue, regardless.
>
> Well, in RL if someone doesn't want your love, it's better to go on your
> way. Sailor Moon is a TV show where the characters are "destined to be
> together," so, it makes sense in that context.
Give the situation. I agree that you ought not to give your love at all or
anymore sometimes, but for ther times, you must simply persevere. The
question is worth.
> >> She has learned to tolerate his insults, too. It shows that she
> >> >> has advanced in her feelings.
> >>
> >> Well, really, it would be better if he could stop dispensing his insults.
> >Of course, but he does not remember that he promised not to.
>
> Well... most people don't need a remembered promise to refrain from
> insulting people...
>
> >> Well, there's no guaranteed way to get responses on a post.
> >
> >Yes, but I was disappointed by the lack of response. Experience had made me
> >anticipate more. I think
>
> Hmmmmm.. maybe we've been spoiling you....
Hope not.
> >> My big disgust is this, friends: Why not use the Star Locket, or
> >> >Luna mindmeld on Darien? It makes sense; why not?
>
> Oh yeah... the Star Locket... I don't think Usagi/Sailor Moon has it any
> more. I think she lost it along with her wand when she was sent back to
> Earth after defeating Queen Beryl/Metalla. If she had it, she would
> _definitely_ have used it because Usagi desperately wants him to remember
> her.
Another good point.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
noit...@hotmail.com
Michi-chan <mich...@michi.net> wrote:
> noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <6qdids$s2h$1...@news-2.news.gte.net>,
> > Michi-chan <mich...@michi.net> wrote:
> > > noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Luna mindmeld on Darien? It makes sense; why not?
> > >
> > > impossible.
> >
> > That is nice to know, but why have they not tried yet, unless Luna and
> > Artemis already know what the situaion is?
>
> Probably haven't had a chance yet.
>
> > Anyway, unless they have told
> > Serena that it is impossible, why has she not tried at least using the Star
> > Locket, instead of pictorial art?
>
> I doubt she still has it. She doesn't have her wand anymore.
noit...@hotmail.com
> >Yesterday I saw the one where Serena helps Darien babysit. Apart from
> >Serena's getting upset after seeing Ann leave the apartment, which was
>
> Well, Serena/Usagi is a 14 year old girl, after all, in love with
> a man who doesn't remember what they mean to each other; she's
> afraid of losing him and unsure of her appeal; Ann is pretty and
> clever and WOW, aggressive, and she was actually COMING OUT OF
> DARIEN'S APARTMENT: Under the circumstances, I think a bit of
> panic was understandable...
As the baby was there, she might have thought that had something to do with
it, and I think Serena would have to be pretty blinded by fear to not see Ann
has been no more successful then her. Ann's leaving could be interpreted as
a good sign. Panic is an understandable emotion under the circumstances, but
she could and ought to have been more discreet.
> >, it showed Serena at the best I have seen her. It showed
> >her dealing with loving somone who has completely forgot her. That is
> >touching. That is what it means to love: Without reciprocation, you still
> >continue. She has learned to tolerate his insults, too. It shows that she
> >has advanced in her feelings.
>
> Advanced and become more sure of.
Yes.
> >Also, I just loved that scene where she and
> >Darien are sitting on the bed while Darien is holding the baby. She is
> >thinking how hopes "to have a nice, happy family like this one some day," and
> >she starts leaning on Darien, he looks at her in surprise, and she catches
> >herself, then changes the subject. That is the finest scene I have yet to
> >see on Sailor Moon. It the shows the vaunted character development you have
> >told about. This was the most romantic episode I have yet seen. I have
> >followed all episodes from the midpoint of season one to one episode past
> >this point anyone disagree?
>
> It IS one of the most quietly romantic and enjoyable moments in the
> show up to that time.
Can you think of any others, so far?
> Fortunately, we get more of them.
>
> And if you think Usagi's developed so far, then you ain't seen nothing
> yet.
Oh goody.
noit...@hotmail.com
> >> >Has this post stagnated, friends? I hope not. I have a lot more respect for
> >> >the Sailor Moon of the second season then the first one. There is
> >> >essentially none of the stupid things that she keeps committing in the first
> >> >one. I hope that I do not have to bash Sailor Moon simply to gain responses,
> >> >my friends. I am not a raving madman, you know, that cannot say anything
> >> >positive. You seem to be rewarding extremists. I will no doubt return to
> >> >criticism in a while, but right now, the recent episodes have been quite
> >> >enjoyable.
> >>
> >> Well, there's no guaranteed way to get responses on a post.
> >
> >Yes, but I was disappointed by the lack of response. Experience had made me
> >anticipate more. I think
>
> predict what will attract people's attention and set off a long
> thread. *I* sure the heck never thought this Love Calculator bit
> would go on as long as it has, after all!
> All you can do is keep posting. Sooner or later you'll strike more
> sparks.
And that I shall.
> <snip>
>
> >> My big disgust is this, friends: Why not use the Star Locket, or
> >> >Luna mindmeld on Darien? It makes sense; why not?
> >>
> >> Maybe she can't. After all, he was the Prince of the Earth in the olden
> >> days. So, maybe he's someone Luna's mind thingie won't work on.
>
> memory she would, because that would mean Tuxedo Mask would be
> back in action helping them against this new threat. Since she
> doesn't try (that we see, anyway), it must be because she is
> sure it won't work.
>
> Also, I think the Star Locket bit it in the confrontation with
> Beryl. I know the Moon Wand did, since we saw it vanishing
> into the Silver Crystal's energy ball after Usagi. As for the
> Crystal itself, well, you'll find out.
> >Serena was Princess of the Moon in the olden days, and it worked just fine
> >on her. After all,
> >
> >> she didn't "activate" him like she did Usagi and the other senshi (except
> >> for Venus who was "activated" by Artemis) in the earlier episodes.
> >
> >You know? I was wondering about that. Alan and Ann are interesting
> >characters. It looks like Alan took lessons from the Pied Piper. They seem
> >attracted to humanity when separated, but show contempt of it when together.
> >I can sympathize that they are trying just to stay alive, but they are still
> >quite nasty. The last episode where Lita was talking to Alan about food was
> >interesting. He actually got something out of the conversation. There
> >appears to be hope for them. I hope so. Perhaps their nastiness will win
> >out, though. They are interesting character studies.
>
> sense of desperation about them. They know that if the Tree dies,
> they die; and they regard humans - most humans - as prey. It's not
> so much that they're evil as that they don't care who they have to
> hurt to keep themselves alive.
> >As for Lita, she is back in character after the one episode where she was
> >concerned about that guy she had always been friends with. She was not
> >herself. That song with those images made no sense to me. Perhaps it makes
> >more sense subtitled or to a Japanese audience.
>
> the brushoff.
> In the original you want to take a 2x4 and nail him repeatedly over
> the head for breaking her heart like that. And also for being DUMB
> enough to walk away from someone that wonderful.
Maybe she she did something very stupid, thereby embarrassing him. Knowing
her, that is very plausible.
Yesterday, I saw the episode with Ann cheating. The response by the scouts
was weak and contradictory. THey decide to do nothing, as she wanted the
part so bad, she cheated, which they sort of admired. Then, they have the
gall at show's end to say, "but cheating is cheating is cheating." If so,
then why did they do nothing? So they admire her wanting something so
badly, but the method that she used was unacceptable. Actually, what they
are saying is that cheating is all right if you coveted something enough. We
all know where the road paved with good intentions leads, I trust. Ann's
good intentions might not have hurt any, but were inherently selfish.
Besides, why is cheating bad? It is not good; it unravels society, and if
all cheated society would be impossible. If cheating is evil, a perversion
of society, it therefore ought to be punished, or at least call her on it, or
let her have the part, but let her know that they know, giving warning. What
do they admire? If it is simply jealousy they did not think of it or guilt in
their hearts, then I am very saddened that they were unable to rise above
such feelings.
Michi-chan
>
> In article <6qf3om$eaf$1...@news-1.news.gte.net>,
> Michi-chan <mich...@michi.net> wrote:
> > noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > Anyway, unless they have told
> > > Serena that it is impossible, why has she not tried at least using the Star
> > > Locket, instead of pictorial art?
> >
> > I doubt she still has it. She doesn't have her wand anymore.
> Will she ever recover it? I hope so.
We don't know. We never see it again.
Scortia-chan
Michi-chan wrote:
> noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <6qf3om$eaf$1...@news-1.news.gte.net>,
> > Michi-chan <mich...@michi.net> wrote:
> > > noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > Anyway, unless they have told
> > > > Serena that it is impossible, why has she not tried at least using the Star
> > > > Locket, instead of pictorial art?
> > >
> > > I doubt she still has it. She doesn't have her wand anymore.
> > Will she ever recover it? I hope so.
>
> We don't know. We never see it again.
>
It goes into the 'Retirement Closet' with all of her many wands, scepters, and
used-up tiaras...^_~
--Scortia
Frank White
<snip>
>> Well, Serena/Usagi is a 14 year old girl, after all, in love with
>> a man who doesn't remember what they mean to each other; she's
>> afraid of losing him and unsure of her appeal; Ann is pretty and
>> clever and WOW, aggressive, and she was actually COMING OUT OF
>> DARIEN'S APARTMENT: Under the circumstances, I think a bit of
>> panic was understandable...
>
>As the baby was there, she might have thought that had something to do with
>it,
Darien letting Ann help take care of the baby could also be interpreted
as a sign of favor. And MORE reason for panic.
>and I think Serena would have to be pretty blinded by fear to not see Ann
>has been no more successful then her. Ann's leaving could be interpreted as
>a good sign. Panic is an understandable emotion under the circumstances, but
>she could and ought to have been more discreet.
Discreet? USAGI???
BWAHHHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
Usagi/Serena is a girl who wears her emotions on her sleeve. When
she is upset it shows; when she is gloriously happy it shows. Later
on she learns to control herself a bit better, but she always has
problems with her feelings. Especially heart stopping panic when
it looks like Darien/Mamoru might be becoming interested in someone
else. We see this again and again, usually resulting in either
comic consequences, or anxiety on the part of Usagi AND we viewers
if it looks like her fear may be justified.
<snip>
>> >Also, I just loved that scene where she and
>> >Darien are sitting on the bed while Darien is holding the baby. She is
>> >thinking how hopes "to have a nice, happy family like this one some day," and
>> >she starts leaning on Darien, he looks at her in surprise, and she catches
>> >herself, then changes the subject. That is the finest scene I have yet to
>> >see on Sailor Moon. It the shows the vaunted character development you have
>> >told about. This was the most romantic episode I have yet seen. I have
>> >followed all episodes from the midpoint of season one to one episode past
>> >this point anyone disagree?
>>
>> It IS one of the most quietly romantic and enjoyable moments in the
>> show up to that time.
>
>Can you think of any others, so far?
The parts at the dances, both during Princess Diamond's reception
and during the Silver Millennium, when they hold each other.
That's all I recall, off hand.
FW
Alex Taylor
<snip>
> > newsgroup. Honestly, this thread is far better than the plethora of stuff like "POLL:
> > Which pair of Serena's socks is your favorite?".
>
> Hehehe...hmmm....I've never paid much attention to her socks. I'll
> watch a couple of eps and get back to you on that. ^_-
I have a baaaaad feeling about where this is going...
-_^
> > > My big disgust is this, friends: Why not use the Star Locket, or Luna mindmeld on
> > > Darien? It makes sense; why not?
> >
> > Ummm...she didn't want to? Not much of a reason, but it's all I have. Maybe it wasn't
> > possible, or Luna decided that Cape Boy wasn't needed since Turban Boy was there?
> >
> Does she still even have the Star Locket after the first season? And I
> think Luna didn't do the mind meld because he wasn't NEEDED. Wanted,
> yes, but she probably knew that she shouldn't make him remembered, that
> he needed to do it on his own, and that he eventually would. It
> wouldn't be right for her to force back the memories of anyone else,
> after renewing the Sailors' memories. She was reluctant to do that,
> even.
I don't think Luna could've revived him like the others, anyway.
Remember, the other five are all warriors from the Moon Kingdom, whose
powers (and memories) are somehow linked with Luna's and Artemis's.
Cape Boy is a different kettle of roses altogether. He's not from
the Moon and his "warrior" persona isn't a historical, item-activated
one. (As far as I can tell, it's created purely from his own
subconscious will.) Luna probably has no idea how his identity works,
inside that head of his.
To put it another way, there's no common link for her to "mind meld"
WITH.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Taylor University of Guelph
al...@eddie.cis.uoguelph.ca http://www.uoguelph.ca/~ataylo00
----------------------------------------------------------------
Trixie
Well, under the circumstances for Venus... she and Sailor Moon are getting
whipped up on by a monster... she did well to follow the general gist of
what he was saying. There really wasn't time for her to debate him. The
effect of his words was that she got up and tried harder. It seems that
was the only effect of his words since she hasn't changed her personal
philosophy from what we can see.
Now, I can't go too far into the philosophy of what the Moonlight Knight
said since I can't remember it too well... I know it was something like
"believe in yourself, that you can do this, other people believe in you."
Granted, that could be taken to an extreme, but since Sailor Venus did not
take it to any sort of extreme, we have to conclude it wasn't meant to be
taken that way.
>
>> >The children cheering her on
>> >
>> >> reminded her of why she was fighting. After he encouraged Sailor Venus and
>> >> she saw the children were really depending on her to help, she found the
>> >> courage to fight harder (and come up with a new attack). I don't think the
>> >> message was that Sailor Venus should engage in self worship or hope to be
>> >> idolized as a hero.
>
>Nor I, but that is essentially what he is saying, following to its logical
>end. To be of any use, it must be in that situation only. I t was spoken as
>a truth, unfortunately.
Well... but then, once again, we have to take into account the
circumstances... mid-battle... and the speaker... the Moonlight Knight who
is running around dressed quite oddly. They (the characters in the show)
don't even know who he is yet. Now, if Sailor Venus had gone on some long
spiritual quest and some "sage" had told her the same thing, the
presentation would be different and your argument would carry more weight.
But, that's not how it happened, some oddly-dressed guy gave Sailor Venus
a flowery pep talk in the middle of a battle. Probably him talking to her
like that gave her a chance to calm down and think about what she could
actually do to get rid of this monster.
Think of being Sailor Venus.... knocked down by a monster with your back
to a busload of little kids and you can see Sailor Moon has been knocked
down by the monster, too. You've tried attacks and they haven't been
effective, your heart is pounding, you aren't sure if there is anything
you can do. And then! The Moonlight Knight shows up and gives you a brief
break from fighting. He encourages you and you remember that you have
beaten monsters before. This, along with the knowledge that you will save
the children and give Sailor Moon a chance to get back on her feet
inspires you to fight harder.
>> >> >> Yesterday I saw the one where Serena helps Darien babysit. Apart from
>> >> >> Serena's getting upset after seeing Ann leave the apartment, which was
>> >> >> foolish and stupid,
>> >>
>> >> Maybe she thought all her suffering (being forgotten, insulted) was for
>> >> naught and had an understandable moment of panic.
>> >
>> >Plausible. I think it would have had better if she had said nothing,
started
>> >crying and ran, b=ut that would would have left out the crucial
turning point
>> >with the baby walking.
>>
>> Well, that's not really her personality... especially since this was _Ann_
>> who she'd had some run-ins with already. Maybe if it had been a different
>> girl, she would have reacted differently.
>Quite possibly, but she still ought not to have done it.
Well, she's not perfect. That's part of the charm of the series, the
characters are good-hearted, but they aren't perfect. In RL everybody says
or does something that maybe wasn't the absolute best thing for the
situation.
Usagi saw her rival emerging from her true love's apartment. If you
notice, it doesn't look like Usagi got a good look at Ann. She didn't
realize that Ann was storming out after... I think... the baby peed on
her. She just got a glimpse of Ann leaving. So, she was hurt and panicked
by the fact that it looked like Ann had managed to take _her_ place. So,
she reacted. Perhaps with jealousy and childishness, but it was a case of
her feelings taking over her mouth and leaving her brain behind. (And you
see this is something that she needs to work on.)
But, notice after the baby walks, she forgets all about Ann. She doesn't
hold a grudge. But, Ann and Ann's aggressiveness is something Usagi is
understandably vey worried about since they're after the same guy. Also,
it's hard on Usagi that the person she has feelings for can't even begin
to understand things like this since he doesn't remember her.
>> >> it showed Serena at the best I have seen her. It showed
>> >> >> her dealing with loving somone who has completely forgot her. That is
>> >> >> touching. That is what it means to love: Without reciprocation,
>> you still
>> >> >> continue.
>> >>
>> >> That may be true for this particular case.
>> >
>> >What do you mean by that, friend? Of course, you do not have to. It is a
>> >choice. But if you truly intend to love somone... You continue,
regardless.
>>
>> Well, in RL if someone doesn't want your love, it's better to go on your
>> way. Sailor Moon is a TV show where the characters are "destined to be
>> together," so, it makes sense in that context.
>
>Give the situation. I agree that you ought not to give your love at all or
>anymore sometimes, but for ther times, you must simply persevere. The
>question is worth.
I don't understand what you're saying... it looks like maybe a couple of
words are missing. Maybe you're just agreeing.
Sailor Trix
Frank White
<snip>
>> This was apparently a flashback to her boyfriend 'Freddy' giving her
>> the brushoff.
>
>Boy, does she have troubles.
Yeah. Sigh.
>> In the original you want to take a 2x4 and nail him repeatedly over
>> the head for breaking her heart like that. And also for being DUMB
>> enough to walk away from someone that wonderful.
>
>Maybe she she did something very stupid, thereby embarrassing him. Knowing
>her, that is very plausible.
Lita/Makoto, doing something stupid?
The only things we've seen her do that might be considered stupid
are going after any boy who reminds her of her lost boyfriend -
which surely wouldn't have been a problem when they were together -
or meeting injustice with violence. Like taking apart a gang of
street toughs trying to intimidate a 14 year old schoolgirl into
giving them money. Other than that, she's very pleasant.
There is a bit in one of the original episodes that may shed light
on the breakup between Makoto and her sempai. During the Crane
Game Joe episode, just after Zoicite drops Makoto during their
fight in the restaraunt, Joe is running out the door and Usagi
tries to stop him and make him go back and help Makoto. But Joe
refuses, saying he doesn't like big girls. Makoto gets this
stricken expression on her face, and whispers, "That's what HE
said!". Suggesting the problem was on his side, not her's.
>Yesterday, I saw the episode with Ann cheating. The response by the scouts
>was weak and contradictory. THey decide to do nothing, as she wanted the
>part so bad, she cheated, which they sort of admired.
Not in the original (sorry to keep bringing that up, but DiC DID
change a lot of things; and not always for the better.) In the
original the others (except Usagi) realize Ann cheated, but also
realize this may be for the best; because if Usagi isn't Snow White
then it would just cause problems if one of THEM got the part. And
got to kiss Mamoru/Darien. Later when Usagi finds out and goes
in search of Ann to have it out with her, they find her praying
at the Temple and think she's praying for the success of the
show (actually she's praying that things work out, and THIS time
she gets to kiss Mamoru). So they decide that since her heart
appears to be in the right place (they think) and this will give
her a chance to fit in, they'll keep quiet about it. Even
Usagi. Even though she's eating her heart out as a result.
>Then, they have the
>gall at show's end to say, "but cheating is cheating is cheating." If so,
>then why did they do nothing? So they admire her wanting something so
>badly, but the method that she used was unacceptable. Actually, what they
>are saying is that cheating is all right if you coveted something enough. We
>all know where the road paved with good intentions leads, I trust. Ann's
>good intentions might not have hurt any, but were inherently selfish.
>Besides, why is cheating bad? It is not good; it unravels society, and if
>all cheated society would be impossible. If cheating is evil, a perversion
>of society, it therefore ought to be punished, or at least call her on it, or
>let her have the part, but let her know that they know, giving warning. What
>do they admire? If it is simply jealousy they did not think of it or guilt in
>their hearts, then I am very saddened that they were unable to rise above
>such feelings.
Actually, as you see above, they (or Usagi) DO rise above their jealousy
and anger - at least, sort of - and try to do what is best for all.
FW
Trixie
>> This was apparently a flashback to her boyfriend 'Freddy' giving her
>> the brushoff.
>Boy, does she have troubles.
>> In the original you want to take a 2x4 and nail him repeatedly over
>> the head for breaking her heart like that. And also for being DUMB
>> enough to walk away from someone that wonderful.
>
>Maybe she she did something very stupid, thereby embarrassing him. Knowing
>her, that is very plausible.
I don't think that's supposed to be the case. I think it's supposed to be
a case of she liked him romantically, but he didn't return her feelings.
As for doing stupid stuff, I don't think she does any more than her fair
share of stupid stuff. _Everybody_ does stupid stuff.
>
>Yesterday, I saw the episode with Ann cheating. The response by the scouts
>was weak and contradictory. THey decide to do nothing, as she wanted the
>part so bad, she cheated, which they sort of admired.
I didn't get the impression that they admired it. They just accepted it.
They _thought_ she was cheating. They were pretty sure she'd cheated, but
they couldn't _prove_ it. I think the idea was, at the actual time Ann
cheated, they were all to distracted by the fact they'd lost the Snow
White part and had to be dwarves to pay much attention to her. So, they
didn't catch her cheating at that time. They figured it out later.
Later... when it was too late for them to do anything practical about it
since there was no proof. So, they just accepted the fact that she had the
Snow White part.
Then, they have the
>gall at show's end to say, "but cheating is cheating is cheating."
Those "Sailor Says" snippets were added in the U.S. They aren't part of
the original series.
If so,
>then why did they do nothing?
They couldn't. There was no proof. All they could do was accuse her. They
really _felt_ that she cheated, but maybe they also had a tiny amount of
doubt and didn't want to accuse her without proof in case she had indeed
been honest. Plus, at that point, accusing Ann and getting into a fight
with her wouldn't really solve anything. The play rehearsals were already
underway.
So they admire her wanting something so
>badly, but the method that she used was unacceptable. Actually, what they
>are saying is that cheating is all right if you coveted something enough. We
>all know where the road paved with good intentions leads, I trust. Ann's
>good intentions might not have hurt any, but were inherently selfish.
I think they pretty well showed that they thought Ann's cheating was
wrong. But, they started to think about why did she do it. Then they
started feeling sorry for her, having no friends. They thought maybe she
cheated because of her desperation to be part of something (well, they
were kind of right... she wanted to be part of a couple with Mamoru... not
that they knew _that_). So, they decided to forgive her. I think maybe
they thought that if Ann got to be part of something, she'd be nicer and
not do so many anti-social things like cheating. I think when they saw Ann
going to pray, that tugged on their heart strings and they thought maybe
it would be better to try to be friends with her (and make her stop doing
things like cheating in a more gentle way) than confronting her and making
her more of an outcast (and more likely to engage in anti-social
behavior).
>Besides, why is cheating bad? It is not good; it unravels society, and if
>all cheated society would be impossible. If cheating is evil, a perversion
>of society, it therefore ought to be punished, or at least call her on it, or
>let her have the part, but let her know that they know, giving warning.
I agree that cheating is bad. But, sometimes directly confronting people
will only chase them away and make them even anti-social. Sometimes if you
show a person friendship, they start to understand why certain behaviors
are bad on their own because through having someone care about them, they
learn to care about people other than themselves.
What
>do they admire? If it is simply jealousy they did not think of it or guilt in
>their hearts, then I am very saddened that they were unable to rise above
>such feelings.
I don't think they admire her. I think when they saw how badly she wanted
the part, it just made them look at her in a different way. So, they
decided to give her a chance to be a better person.
Sailor Trix
Pamela Jo Reamer
>
> On Fri, 7 Aug 1998 05:43:19, Pamela Jo Reamer <ref...@tctc.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > newsgroup. Honestly, this thread is far better than the plethora of stuff like "POLL:
> > > Which pair of Serena's socks is your favorite?".
> >
> > Hehehe...hmmm....I've never paid much attention to her socks. I'll
> > watch a couple of eps and get back to you on that. ^_-
>
> I have a baaaaad feeling about where this is going...
> -_^
Sailor Sun
~*sobbing* They didn't come today! My fansubs didn't come today, like I
had hoped. I guess there is still hope for Monday...~
noit...@hotmail.com
> >> This was apparently a flashback to her boyfriend 'Freddy' giving her
> >> the brushoff.
> >Boy, does she have troubles.
> >> In the original you want to take a 2x4 and nail him repeatedly over
> >> the head for breaking her heart like that. And also for being DUMB
> >> enough to walk away from someone that wonderful.
> >
> >Maybe she she did something very stupid, thereby embarrassing him. Knowing
> >her, that is very plausible.
>
> a case of she liked him romantically, but he didn't return her feelings.
> As for doing stupid stuff, I don't think she does any more than her fair
> share of stupid stuff. _Everybody_ does stupid stuff.
Her arguing with Ann as Alan was choking in pain since his mouth was on fire,
was pretty hilarious.
> >Yesterday, I saw the episode with Ann cheating. The response by the scouts
> >was weak and contradictory. THey decide to do nothing, as she wanted the
> >part so bad, she cheated, which they sort of admired.
>
> I didn't get the impression that they admired it. They just accepted it.
Not a good idea, if you claim that cheating is truly bad.
> They _thought_ she was cheating. They were pretty sure she'd cheated, but
> they couldn't _prove_ it. I think the idea was, at the actual time Ann
> cheated, they were all to distracted by the fact they'd lost the Snow
> White part and had to be dwarves to pay much attention to her. So, they
> didn't catch her cheating at that time. They figured it out later.
> Later... when it was too late for them to do anything practical about it
> since there was no proof. So, they just accepted the fact that she had the
> Snow White part.
True.
> Then, they have the
> >gall at show's end to say, "but cheating is cheating is cheating."
>
> Those "Sailor Says" snippets were added in the U.S. They aren't part of
> the original series.
Ah. My respect for the series increases.
> If so,
> >then why did they do nothing?
>
> They couldn't. There was no proof. All they could do was accuse her. They
> really _felt_ that she cheated, but maybe they also had a tiny amount of
> doubt and didn't want to accuse her without proof in case she had indeed
> been honest. Plus, at that point, accusing Ann and getting into a fight
> with her wouldn't really solve anything. The play rehearsals were already
> underway.
You have a point, friend, but they at one point resolved to at least talk
with her.
> So they admire her wanting something so
> >badly, but the method that she used was unacceptable. Actually, what they
> >are saying is that cheating is all right if you coveted something enough. We
> >all know where the road paved with good intentions leads, I trust. Ann's
> >good intentions might not have hurt any, but were inherently selfish.
>
> I think they pretty well showed that they thought Ann's cheating was
> wrong. But, they started to think about why did she do it.
If we went down that line, we would ultimately be unable to punish anyone,
and without penalty, society shall collapse. It helps to understand why, but
not as to handcuff planned action taken. Then they
> started feeling sorry for her, having no friends. They thought maybe she
> cheated because of her desperation to be part of something (well, they
> were kind of right... she wanted to be part of a couple with Mamoru... not
> that they knew _that_). So, they decided to forgive her. I think maybe
> they thought that if Ann got to be part of something, she'd be nicer and
> not do so many anti-social things like cheating. I think when they saw Ann
> going to pray, that tugged on their heart strings and they thought maybe
> it would be better to try to be friends with her (and make her stop doing
> things like cheating in a more gentle way) than confronting her and making
> her more of an outcast (and more likely to engage in anti-social
> behavior).
I think the bottom line was their own guilty consciences.
> >Besides, why is cheating bad? It is not good; it unravels society, and if
> >all cheated society would be impossible. If cheating is evil, a perversion
> >of society, it therefore ought to be punished, or at least call her on it, or
> >let her have the part, but let her know that they know, giving warning.
>
> I agree that cheating is bad. But, sometimes directly confronting people
> will only chase them away and make them even anti-social. Sometimes if you
> show a person friendship, they start to understand why certain behaviors
> are bad on their own because through having someone care about them, they
> learn to care about people other than themselves.
That is a good idea, all right.
> What
> >do they admire? If it is simply jealousy they did not think of it or guilt in
> >their hearts, then I am very saddened that they were unable to rise above
> >such feelings.
>
> I don't think they admire her. I think when they saw how badly she wanted
> the part, it just made them look at her in a different way. So, they
> decided to give her a chance to be a better person.
But I still think they did too little. I mean, unless you put things in
reference to the Source, there is no problem in dealing like they did, but as
it is evidenced there is, then there is greater reason other then social
standards to be accounted for. They failed to consider that in their
judgment.
noit...@hotmail.com
Michi-chan <mich...@michi.net> wrote:
> noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <6qf3om$eaf$1...@news-1.news.gte.net>,
> > Michi-chan <mich...@michi.net> wrote:
> > > noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > Anyway, unless they have told
> > > > Serena that it is impossible, why has she not tried at least using the Star
> > > > Locket, instead of pictorial art?
> > >
> > > I doubt she still has it. She doesn't have her wand anymore.
> > Will she ever recover it? I hope so.
>
> We don't know. We never see it again.
noit...@hotmail.com
Scortia-chan <scortia@*NOSPAM*i-55.com> wrote:
>
>
> Michi-chan wrote:
>
> > noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <6qf3om$eaf$1...@news-1.news.gte.net>,
> > > Michi-chan <mich...@michi.net> wrote:
> > > > noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > > > Anyway, unless they have told
> > > > > Serena that it is impossible, why has she not tried at least using the Star
> > > > > Locket, instead of pictorial art?
> > > >
> > > > I doubt she still has it. She doesn't have her wand anymore.
> > > Will she ever recover it? I hope so.
> >
> > We don't know. We never see it again.
> >
>
> used-up tiaras...^_~
noit...@hotmail.com
But it was largely intended for the television audience, and not to her at
all. How much philosophical damage has it done to unsuspecting children?
That is the real danger.
> Now, I can't go too far into the philosophy of what the Moonlight Knight
> said since I can't remember it too well... I know it was something like
> "believe in yourself, that you can do this, other people believe in you."
> Granted, that could be taken to an extreme, but since Sailor Venus did not
> take it to any sort of extreme, we have to conclude it wasn't meant to be
> taken that way.
He could, and ought, to have phrased it differently.
> >> >The children cheering her on
> >> >
> >> >> reminded her of why she was fighting. After he encouraged Sailor Venus and
> >> >> she saw the children were really depending on her to help, she found the
> >> >> courage to fight harder (and come up with a new attack). I don't think the
> >> >> message was that Sailor Venus should engage in self worship or hope to be
> >> >> idolized as a hero.
It would do her better to do so on the behalf of the Source.
> >Nor I, but that is essentially what he is saying, following to its logical
> >end. To be of any use, it must be in that situation only. t was spoken as
> >a truth, unfortunately.
>
> Well... but then, once again, we have to take into account the
> circumstances... mid-battle... and the speaker... the Moonlight Knight who
> is running around dressed quite oddly. They (the characters in the show)
> don't even know who he is yet. Now, if Sailor Venus had gone on some long
> spiritual quest and some "sage" had told her the same thing, the
> presentation would be different and your argument would carry more weight.
> But, that's not how it happened, some oddly-dressed guy gave Sailor Venus
> a flowery pep talk in the middle of a battle. Probably him talking to her
> like that gave her a chance to calm down and think about what she could
> actually do to get rid of this monster.
Perhaps so, but you will notice that everything stops when he arrives. His
presence carries weight. Then, circumstances prove him "right." It subtly
supports a bad idea.
> Think of being Sailor Venus.... knocked down by a monster with your back
> to a busload of little kids and you can see Sailor Moon has been knocked
> down by the monster, too. You've tried attacks and they haven't been
> effective, your heart is pounding, you aren't sure if there is anything
> you can do. And then! The Moonlight Knight shows up and gives you a brief
> break from fighting. He encourages you and you remember that you have
> beaten monsters before. This, along with the knowledge that you will save
> the children and give Sailor Moon a chance to get back on her feet
> inspires you to fight harder.
How do you know that? It is perhaps just a state of mind.
> >> >> >> Yesterday I saw the one where Serena helps Darien babysit. Apart from
> >> >> >> Serena's getting upset after seeing Ann leave the apartment, which was
> >> >> >> foolish and stupid,
> >> >>
> >> >> Maybe she thought all her suffering (being forgotten, insulted) was for
> >> >> naught and had an understandable moment of panic.
> >> >
> >> >Plausible. I think it would have had better if she had said nothing,
> started
> >> >crying and ran, b=ut that would would have left out the crucial
> turning point
> >> >with the baby walking.
> >>
> >> Well, that's not really her personality... especially since this was _Ann_
> >> who she'd had some run-ins with already. Maybe if it had been a different
> >> girl, she would have reacted differently.
> >Quite possibly, but she still ought not to have done it.
>
> Well, she's not perfect. That's part of the charm of the series, the
> characters are good-hearted, but they aren't perfect. In RL everybody says
> or does something that maybe wasn't the absolute best thing for the
> situation.
We all do that, I admit, but the lack of discretion is appalling.
> Usagi saw her rival emerging from her true love's apartment. If you
> notice, it doesn't look like Usagi got a good look at Ann. She didn't
> realize that Ann was storming out after... I think... the baby peed on
> her. She just got a glimpse of Ann leaving. So, she was hurt and panicked
> by the fact that it looked like Ann had managed to take _her_ place. So,
> she reacted. Perhaps with jealousy and childishness, but it was a case of
> her feelings taking over her mouth and leaving her brain behind. (And you
> see this is something that she needs to work on.)
And how, friend, and how.
> But, notice after the baby walks, she forgets all about Ann. She doesn't
> hold a grudge. But, Ann and Ann's aggressiveness is something Usagi is
> understandably vey worried about since they're after the same guy. Also,
> it's hard on Usagi that the person she has feelings for can't even begin
> to understand things like this since he doesn't remember her.
If I were her, it would give me grief, too.
> >> >> it showed Serena at the best I have seen her. It showed
> >> >> >> her dealing with loving somone who has completely forgot her. That is
> >> >> >> touching. That is what it means to love: Without reciprocation,
> >> you still
> >> >> >> continue.
> >> >>
> >> >> That may be true for this particular case.
> >> >
> >> >What do you mean by that, friend? Of course, you do not have to. It is a
> >> >choice. But if you truly intend to love somone... You continue,
> regardless.
> >>
> >> Well, in RL if someone doesn't want your love, it's better to go on your
> >> way. Sailor Moon is a TV show where the characters are "destined to be
> >> together," so, it makes sense in that context.
> >
> >Give the situation. I agree that you ought not to give your love at all or
> >anymore sometimes, but for other times, you must simply persevere. The
> >question is of worth.
(The above is revised.)
> I don't understand what you're saying... it looks like maybe a couple of
> words are missing. Maybe you're just agreeing.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----