"Sunshine Might Be Free But Solar Power is Not Cheap"

David Hartung

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Jan 30, 2023, 10:38:41 AM1/30/23

to

https://www.realclearwire.com/articles/2023/01/24/sunshine_might_be_free_but_solar_power_is_not_cheap_877463.html

[...]
Mississippi residents are consistently told that renewable energy
sources, like solar panels, are now the lowest-cost ways to generate
electricity, but these claims are based on creative accounting gimmicks
that only examine a small portion of the expenses incurred to integrate
solar onto the grid while excluding many others.

When these hidden expenses are accounted for, it becomes obvious that
solar is much more expensive than Mississippi’s existing coal, natural
gas, and nuclear power plants and that adding more solar will increase
electricity prices for the families and businesses that rely upon it.
[...]

Thought provoking.

Lee

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Jan 30, 2023, 11:52:07 AM1/30/23

to

David Hartung wrote:

> https://www.realclearwire.com/articles/2023/01/24/sunshine_might_be_fr

> ee_but_solar_power_is_not_cheap_877463.html
>
> [...]
> Mississippi residents are consistently told that renewable energy
> sources, like solar panels, are now the lowest-cost ways to generate
> electricity, but these claims are based on creative accounting
> gimmicks that only examine a small portion of the expenses incurred
> to integrate solar onto the grid while excluding many others.
>
> When these hidden expenses are accounted for, it becomes obvious that
> solar is much more expensive than Mississippi’s existing coal,
> natural gas, and nuclear power plants and that adding more solar will
> increase electricity prices for the families and businesses that rely
> upon it. [...]

Fact Check: Mississippi is ENCOURAGING
people to switch to solar.

Mississippi Solar Incentives for 2023
November 11, 2022

The complete list of Mississippi solar
incentives and tax credits for 2023,
plus how to take advantage.

In July, 2022, the Mississippi Public
Service Commission approved new Net
Renewable Generation Rules that go far
beyond most net metering mandates in
the U.S. Under the new rules,
homeowners may be eligible for a
$3,500 rebate when installing rooftop
solar in Mississippi, along with
ongoing net metering benefits.

As of August 2022, Mississippi Power
offers net metered customers 2.5
cents/kWh above the company’s
avoided-cost rate (which is around
3 cents per kWh) for excess energy
exported to the grid. For low-
income residential net metered
customers, the utility pays an
additional 2 cents/kWh on top of
the avoided-cost value. The Tennessee
Valley Authority (TVA) utility offers
a similar model of compensation to
customers producing solar electricity.

https://www.leafscore.com/solar-guide/benefits-of-going-solar/solar-reba
tes-and-incentives/mississippi/

AlleyCat

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Jan 30, 2023, 8:09:32 PM1/30/23

to

On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 16:52:01 +0000, Lee says...

> Fact Check: Mississippi is ENCOURAGING
> people to switch to solar.

Fact check: That doesn't make solar OR wind "cheap".

Jacob Maroga
@jacob_maroga

Jan 26
Germany has installed capacity of 132GW of solar & wind. 75GW of fossil. A
demand of ~75GW. Battery storage of only 5,6GW. Yet, their emergency response
to Russia/Ukraine war is more coal and more gas with LNG infrastructure.

Steve Milloy
@JunkScience

8h
What Europe needs to do is to abandon climate idiocy as the basis for its
energy policy.

Europe has so far spent trillions of dollars on wind and solar and it has only
led to absolute disaster.

Steve Milloy
@JunkScience

8h
Wind and solar are not cheaper than coal.

That is just green propaganda.

If that were true, China and India would not continue to build coal as fast as
they can.

Too bad Bloomberg @carlydwanna
don't wanna tell the truth.

India extends the life of old coal plants slated for near-term retirement.

Because India needs the electricity.... and wind/solar just don't work.

=====

India Asks Utilities To Not Retire Coal-Fired Power Plants Till 2030 - Notice

SINGAPORE, Jan 30 (Reuters) - India has asked utilities to not retire coal-
fired power plants till 2030 due to a surge in electricity demand, according to
a federal power ministry notice reviewed by Reuters, just over two years after
committing to eventually phase down use of the fuel.

[...]

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/india-asks-utilities-not-retire-coal-
fired-power-plants-till-2030-notice-2023-01-30/

=====

Reliable wind and solar are not cheap
By David Wojick |August 11th, 2022|Energy|Comments Off on Reliable wind and
solar are not cheap

You often hear that wind and solar power are cheaper than burning coal or
natural gas, so we will save money by switching. But as the song says, it ain't
necessarily so. In fact it is almost never so. That wind and solar are cheaper
is at best a half truth, more like an eighth truth.

Here is the reality you never hear of.

That wind and solar are cheaper is true in one way, but it is a small way. It
is also a technical way, with the grand name of the "levelized cost of
electricity" or LCOE. Now "levelized" is not a word you hear every day, to say
the least. This might tip you off that something is going on.

In fact LCOE, as it is always called, is a simple idea. It is usually
calculated (or estimated) for a single electric power generator. This might be
a coal or gas fired power plant, or for a wind farm or solar array. You first
take the total cost over the entire life of the generator. This includes
construction, operation and retirement or disposal. You then divide this cost
by all the juice it generates in that lifetime. The answer is the LCOE for that
generator.

So LCOE is the cost of making the juice. What levelized means is that the ups
and downs over time are not part of it. They are all mashed into a single
number.

For the big, utility scale, generators the cost is usually in dollars and the
juice in megawatt hours or MWh. An average house uses around one MWh a month.
America as a whole uses around 4 billion MWh a year. That is a lot of juice.

Individual generator costs can vary from case to case, making LCOE something of
a crude estimate. Below is a recent version of an international assessment,
using the lowest numbers.

Note that there are two different kinds of gas fired generator. What is called
a simple cycle is basically just a jet engine spinning a generator. These are
usually pretty small. Then there is the "combined cycle" power plant where the
hot jet exhaust makes steam that drives another generator. Most of our gas
fired generation is combined cycle. Simple cycle is used when a boost of power
is needed for a short time.

Likewise there are two types of wind generator, depending on where they are.
Offshore wind towers are out in the ocean, which makes them expensive. Onshore
wind is the familiar multi-tower wind complex on dry land. While Europe has a
lot of offshore wind, America has almost none at this point. Several big
projects are in the works. We are here just talking about onshore wind, which
is relatively cheap.

Estimated average LCOE for various types of power plant in $/MWh.

Coal = $60

Simple cycle gas = $152

Combined cycle gas = $41

Solar = $36

Onshore wind = $29

You can see that solar and (onshore) wind are both cheaper than gas and coal.
This is what is meant when people say wind and solar are cheaper. Their LCOE is
lower.

However, when used in the grid to power America, wind and solar are far from
cheaper. This is the fact that proponents of wind and solar like to ignore, or
in many cases do not even know about.

In addition to the LCOE there is the high cost of making wind and solar
reliable.

[...]

https://www.cfact.org/2022/08/11/reliable-wind-and-solar-are-not-cheap/

============================================================================

Colonial Canada Had Slavery For More Than 200 Years. And Yes, It Still Matters
Today

More Canadians Say Racism Is A "Serious Problem" Today Than 1 Year Ago

Canada Urged To Open Its Eyes To Systemic Racism In Wake Of Police Violence

Racism In Canada Is Ever-Present, But We Have A Long History Of Denial

Majority (60%) See Racism as a Serious Problem in Canada Today, Up 13 points
Since Last Year

Nearly a Third of Canadians (28%) Say They Have Personally Experienced Racism
in the Past Year - 24 July 2020

https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/majority-60-see-racism-serious-problem-canada-
today-13-points-last-year

Canada's Enduring Legacy Of Power, Politics And Racism
https://theclarion.ca/politicslaw/canadians-no-less-racist-than-americans/

75 Per Cent of Canadians Polled, Say Royal Canadian Mounted Police Has Systemic
Racism Issue

Systemic Racism In The Royal Canadian Mounted Police Force
https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/07/11/study-canadians-agree-rcmp-systemic-
racism/

Racist Canada Kicks Indian Out of Parliament
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/18/world/canada-jagmeet-singh-opponent-racist-
scli-intl/index.html

Canada's Shameful, Modern-Day Slave Trade
https://torontosun.com/2012/02/10/canadas-shameful-modern-day-slave-
trade/wcm/2e410af6-9dc4-4ef7-bc3e-821a5970ed41

Black Enslavement in Canada
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/black-enslavement

Colonial Canada Had Slavery For More Than 200 Years. And Yes, It Still Matters
Today
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/06/17/slavery-canada-history_n_16806804.html

Canada's Slavery Secret: The Whitewashing Of 200 Years Of Enslavement
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/canada-s-slavery-secret-the-whitewashing-of-200-
years-of-enslavement-1.4726313

Canada Has Started Rejecting More Refugee Claims

Why https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/05/theres-a-
perception-that-canada-is-being-invaded/561032

Canada has begun granting refugee status to fewer irregular border crossers

"Trying to depict these people as welfare bums and security threats and
criminals is a racist attitude. Canadians hate when you say that we're racist,
BUT WE ARE."

=====

The Reality of Anti-Black Racism in Canada | BCG

https://www.bcg.com/en-ca/publications/2020/reality-of-anti-black-racism-in-
canada

Anti-Black racism in Canada is worse than most Canadians want to believe. With
the COVID-19 pandemic amplifying the injustices against Black People, it is now
more important than ever for Canadians to take action.

=====

Racism & the Canadian historical past...

https://divercityvisa.com/racism-the-americanization-of-canadian-historical-
past-why-we-should-not-take-a-look-at-ourselves-by-a-u-s-lens

The Canadian response to racism south of the border will be described as an
Americanization of Canadian historical past. The media's lack of protection of
racism in Canada, in its traditionally correct context, is a trigger for
concern. Totally different histories of racism.

=====

Racism in Canada | News, Videos & Articles

https://globalnews.ca/tag/racism-in-canada

Canadian MPs vote to condemn Atlanta mass shooting, anti-Asian racism. The move
comes days after eight people were killed by a white gunman in Atlanta. Six of
the victims were Asian American women...

=====

Anti-Asian Racism Lead, The Canadian Race Relations...

https://cpac-canada.ca/anti-asian-racism-lead

The Canadian Race Relations Foundation (CRRF) was created in 1996 to reaffirm
the principles of justice and equality for all in Canada. The CRRF's mandate is
to facilitate throughout Canada the development, sharing, and application of
knowledge and expertise to eliminate racism and all forms of racial
discrimination in Canadian society.

=====

Is Canada a racist country? One-third of respondents in a...

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2021 - /06/21/is-canada-a-racist-country-
one-third-of-respondents-in-a-new-study-say-yes.html

Jun 21, 2021 -

One-third of respondents in a new study say yes. Most Canadians agree that
Canada's diverse population makes it a better country. But on the question of
whether or not Canada is a racist country...

=====

Most Canadians Experience Racism... - New Canadian Media

https://newcanadianmedia.ca/most-canadians-experience-racism-where-they-live-
survey

Canadian racism is sometimes called "polite" and is characterized by
microaggressions, but that is a misnomer. Words like that are used to deflect
criticisms and differentiate Canada from the United States, says Henry, though
she does see similar ideologies and motivations.

=====

Canada Must Withdraw From Racist Core Group - Yves Angler

https://yvesengler.com/2021 - /10/24/canada-must-withdraw-from-racist-core-
group

The least Canadian antiracist activists should do is educate themselves about
racism in foreign affairs. There is no justification for Canada participating
in this nakedly imperialist alliance. All Canadians of conscience owe a debt of
solidarity to the people of Haiti. We must demand Ottawa immediately withdraw
from the racist Core Group.

=====

Sikh Canadians Surge Politically In "Systemically Racist...

https://capforcanada.com/sikh-canadians-surge-politically-in-systemically-
racist-canada

"The reality is, our Canada is a place of racism, of violence." - NDP Party
Leader Jagmeet Singh, June 14th 2021 -. An unprecedented event occurred last
night in Alberta, Canada. Sikh-Canadian candidates won in both Calgary and
Edmonton mayoral elections.. Jhoti Gondek is the first Sikh-Canadian to become
mayor of Calgary. She will be taking over from Naheed Nenshi, three-time winner
as...

=====

Racism at IRCC could determine who gets in - New Canadian...

https://newcanadianmedia.ca/racism-at-ircc-could-determine-who-gets-in

IRCC employees are reporting racist workplace behaviour such as racially-
charged microaggressions at work, says survey. NCM reporter Isabel Inclan
reports on the deeper fallout. Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada
(IRCC) employees remain skeptical of the measures in place to tackle racism at
their workplace, according to a new report.

-hh

unread,

Jan 30, 2023, 8:36:35 PM1/30/23

to

On Monday, January 30, 2023 at 10:38:41 AM UTC-5, David Hartung wrote:
> https://www.realclearwire.com/articles/2023/01/24/sunshine_might_be_free_but_solar_power_is_not_cheap_877463.html
>
> [...]
>
> Thought provoking.

Yeah, because it is a bullshit article from a fossil fuels industry shill:
<https://www.desmog.com/isaac-orr/>

And damn sloppy too: try to find the "graph below" that the article references.
Note too how it spends time explaining what LCOE is .. but then never uses
that metric. Why? Golly, it couldn't be because those numbers would actually
reveal that on an LCOE basis, solar & wind cost half as much as coal.

> Mississippi residents are consistently told that renewable energy

> sources, like solar panels, ....

Yet the article talks about the costs of building more transmission lines:

"According to the Midcontinent Independent Systems Operator (MISO), these
transmission lines routinely cost between $2.5 million and $3.1 million per mile."

But one doesn't need new transmission lines for generation installed at point-of-use.

-hh

Governor Swill

unread,

Jan 31, 2023, 12:22:36 AM1/31/23

to

On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 09:38:34 -0600, David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com>
wrote:

Also a lie. As usual, they cherry pick their info to arrive at the
conclusion they want to arrive at.

Swill
--
A Week In the [Short] Life of a Russian Tank Commander

o You finish one month tank training course.
o You are sent to fight in "special military operation."
o Colonel Fuckoffski informs you that you are fighting NATO Main
Battle Tanks
o When you ask what kinds and how many, he responds, "Da."
o He further informs you they are designed to fight modernized T-72's
and T-90's
o You are assigned an unmodernized T62
o Crew informs you main gun not working due to stolen copper wiring
o Voices with Ukrainian accents start making cat noises over open
comms - Klaus Schadenfreude

Glory to the Heroes! Glory to Ukraine!

Slava Ukraina!

NoBody

unread,

Jan 31, 2023, 7:00:24 AM1/31/23

to

On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 09:38:34 -0600, David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com>
wrote:

Oh not to worry. They'll just increase taxes on the working class for
more give aways.

NoBody

unread,

Jan 31, 2023, 7:02:09 AM1/31/23

to

On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 16:52:01 +0000, "Lee" <cle...@gmail.com> wrote:

>David Hartung wrote:
>
>> https://www.realclearwire.com/articles/2023/01/24/sunshine_might_be_fr
>> ee_but_solar_power_is_not_cheap_877463.html
>>
>> [...]
>> Mississippi residents are consistently told that renewable energy
>> sources, like solar panels, are now the lowest-cost ways to generate
>> electricity, but these claims are based on creative accounting
>> gimmicks that only examine a small portion of the expenses incurred
>> to integrate solar onto the grid while excluding many others.
>>
>> When these hidden expenses are accounted for, it becomes obvious that
>> solar is much more expensive than Mississippi’s existing coal,
>> natural gas, and nuclear power plants and that adding more solar will
>> increase electricity prices for the families and businesses that rely
>> upon it. [...]
>
>
>
>Fact Check: Mississippi is ENCOURAGING
>people to switch to solar.

Your "fact check" does not refute what David posted. It simply shows
that you can never address anything without attempting to change the
subject.

Siri Cruise

unread,

Jan 31, 2023, 8:13:17 AM1/31/23

to

In article <VpScnaSn0PvneUr-...@giganews.com>,

David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com> wrote:

> When these hidden expenses are accounted for, it becomes obvious that
> solar is much more expensive than Mississippi’s existing coal, natural
> gas, and nuclear power plants and that adding more solar will increase
> electricity prices for the families and businesses that rely upon it.

Which produces more smog to for Bakersfield children to gag on?

--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

Mitchell Holman

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Jan 31, 2023, 12:30:30 PM1/31/23

to

-hh <recscub...@huntzinger.com> wrote in
news:a8e52c2d-9c09-444a...@googlegroups.com:

I am always amazed that survivalist
"free yourself from government" conservatives
are so opposed to generating their own power
at home and charging up their own cars at home.
Suddenly being dependant on Big Coal and Big
Rail and Big Oil is their ideal?

Governor Swill

unread,

Jan 31, 2023, 6:39:16 PM1/31/23

to

On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 17:30:23 +0000, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>-hh <recscub...@huntzinger.com> wrote

I'm still trying to work out what transmission lines have to do with
solar panels on your roof. Pity Hartung didn't think about it.

David Hartung

unread,

Jan 31, 2023, 8:56:41 PM1/31/23

to

Is "point of use" power generation practical for everybody?

David Hartung

unread,

Jan 31, 2023, 8:57:42 PM1/31/23

to

On 1/30/23 23:22, Governor Swill wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 09:38:34 -0600, David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com>
> wrote:
>
>> https://www.realclearwire.com/articles/2023/01/24/sunshine_might_be_free_but_solar_power_is_not_cheap_877463.html
>>
>> [...]
>> Mississippi residents are consistently told that renewable energy
>> sources, like solar panels, are now the lowest-cost ways to generate
>> electricity, but these claims are based on creative accounting gimmicks
>> that only examine a small portion of the expenses incurred to integrate
>> solar onto the grid while excluding many others.
>>
>> When these hidden expenses are accounted for, it becomes obvious that
>> solar is much more expensive than Mississippi’s existing coal, natural
>> gas, and nuclear power plants and that adding more solar will increase
>> electricity prices for the families and businesses that rely upon it.
>> [...]
>>
>> Thought provoking.
>
> Also a lie. As usual, they cherry pick their info to arrive at the
> conclusion they want to arrive at.

Example?

David Hartung

unread,

Jan 31, 2023, 8:59:45 PM1/31/23

to

unread,

Jan 31, 2023, 9:26:27 PM1/31/23

to

David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com> wrote in
news:t3ednaNPwu4WWkT-...@giganews.com:

And not everyone has the ability to assemble
an arsenal of high power rifles but you sure defend
THEIR ability to do so.

Here is one guy's collection of guns.

Colt M4 Carbine AR-15

Noveske N4 AR-15

LWRC M61C AR-15

POF USA P-308 AR-10

POF USA P-15 P AR-15

Colt Competition AR-15

Smith & Wesson 342 AirLite .38 caliber revolver

LWRC M61C AR-15

FNH FM15 AR-10 .308/7.62

FNH FN15 AR-15 .223/5.56 with a bump stock

POF USA P15 AR-15 .223/5.56 with a bump stock

Colt M4 Carbine AR-15 .223/5.56 with a bump stock

Daniel Defense M4A1 AR-15 .223/5.56 with a bump stock

LMT Def. 2000 AR-15 .223/5.56 with a bump stock

Daniel Defense DDM4V11 AR-15 .223/5.56 with a bump stock

Sig Sauer SIG716 AR-10 .308/7.62 with a bipod

Daniel Defense DD5V1 AR-10 .308/7.62 with a bipod

FNH FN15 AR-15 .223/5.56 with a bump stock

Ruger American .308 caliber bolt action rifle

LMT LM308MWS AR-10 .308/7.62 with a bipod

Ruger SR0762 AR-10 .308/7.62 with a bipod

LMT LM308MWS AR-10 with a bipod, scope

Smith & Wesson SW99 9mm semi-automatic pistol.

Smith & Wesson M&P9 9mm semi-automatic pistol.

Glock 17 9mm semi-automatic pistol.

Mossberg 500 12 gauge pump action shotgun.

Sig Sauer 516 AR-15 .223/5.56 rifle with a bipod

Arma-Lite SPRM001 AR-15 .223/5.56 rifle with a bipod

Mossberg 590 12 gauge pump action shotgun.

LWRC M61C-IC-A5 AR-15 .223/5.56 rifle

Mossberg 590 V0348193 12 gauge pump action shotgun.

Mossberg 930 12 semi-automatic gauge shotgun.

Arma-Lite SPRM001 AR-15 .223/5.56 rifle

Sig Sauer 516 2AR-15 .223/5.56 rifle, with a bipod

Lantac LA-R15 Raven AR-15 .223 Wylde rifle with a bipod

Mossberg 590 12 gauge pump action shotgun.

Arsenal Saiga 12 AK-47 style semi-automatic 12 gauge shotgun.

Arsenal Saiga 12 AK-47 style semi-automatic 12 gauge shotgun.

Beretta 92F 9mm semi-automatic pistol.

FN 5.7 5.7mm semi-automatic pistol.

Are you envious?

You should be.

These are the guns Stephen Paddock used
to shoot 500 people from his hotel room in
Las Vegas.

https://tinyurl.com/23xfp7dn

Mitchell Holman

unread,

Jan 31, 2023, 9:30:09 PM1/31/23

to

Governor Swill <governo...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:4h9jth56a0qc9d4r7...@4ax.com:

He lets his rightwing articles do
his thinking for him.

Did he notice the bit about solar
panel owners making money by selling their
excess power back the utility?

Talk about an investment that literally
pays for itself...........

Governor Swill

unread,

Feb 1, 2023, 1:04:17 AM2/1/23

to

On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 19:59:39 -0600, David Hartung wrote:
> Swill wrote:
>> I'm still trying to work out what transmission lines have to do with
>> solar panels on your roof. Pity Hartung didn't think about it.
>
>It is even more of a pity that you do not understand that not everyone
>has the ability to put solar panels on their roofs.

So? How is that relevant to how much it costs to generate electricity
at home?

Swill
--
Reality is an acquired taste - Matthew Perry

Glory to the heroes. Glory to Ukraine.

Governor Swill

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Feb 1, 2023, 1:05:22 AM2/1/23

to

On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 18:13:41 -0800, Siri Cruise wrote:

>Many people like to park their cars in the shade. What I've
>noticed in the past few years are solar panels going up over
>parking areas.

Damn. Never though of that. Solar panels would pay for a garage or
carport in no time.

Governor Swill

unread,

Feb 1, 2023, 1:12:58 AM2/1/23

to

On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 19:56:35 -0600, David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com>
wrote:

GOALPOST MOVE AHEAD!

>Is "point of use" power generation practical for everybody?

That's not the topic brought up by your article. Your article was
trying to say, falsely, that solar power is more expensive than other
generation methods and attempted to link non solar costs to solar.

Now, to address your goalpost move.

Not everybody can afford a new car every year. Does that mean we
should stop selling new cars?

Home building isn't practical for everybody. Should we stop building
houses?

Solar power won't work for everybody who has a roof over their head.
Does that mean we should stop installing solar panels?

Governor Swill

unread,

Feb 1, 2023, 1:23:31 AM2/1/23

to

On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 19:57:35 -0600, David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com>

I believe -hh covered that in the post in which he exposed the author
as a fossil fuel industry shill. But, for your comfort, here it is
again.

copy

. . . because it is a bullshit article from a fossil fuels industry

shill: <https://www.desmog.com/isaac-orr/>

And damn sloppy too: try to find the "graph below" that the article
references. Note too how it spends time explaining what LCOE is ..
but then never uses that metric. Why? Golly, it couldn't be because
those numbers would actually reveal that on an LCOE basis, solar &
wind cost half as much as coal.

>Mississippi residents are consistently told that renewable energy
>sources, like solar panels, are now the lowest-cost ways to generate
>electricity,

Yet the article talks about the costs of building more transmission
lines:

"According to the Midcontinent Independent Systems Operator (MISO),
these transmission lines routinely cost between $2.5 million and $3.1
million per mile."

But one doesn't need new transmission lines for generation installed
at point-of-use.

/copy

And as he pointed out in another post, solar *reduces* the need for
transmission lines (which cuts costs for *every* electricity user)
because it destresses the grid due to so many users generating some of
their own power.

You, Hapsburg, are a fine example of southern inbreeding.

unread,

Feb 1, 2023, 9:31:59 AM2/1/23

to

As I already said, that claim doesn't apply to Mississippi residents: they're already
hooked up to the grid and all localized solar-based electricity production will reduce
their pull from the grid, which extends the grid's useful life.

Now regarding commercial generation (which is a bit of a goalpost move), your point is
pedantically correct, but it is also dishonest for a couple of reasons.

First is that *all** new power generation needs transmission lines no matter if it is green,
gas, coal, or nuclear, so this just isn't a new expense.

Second, site selection and distribution can be more creative & flexible with green, such
as by optimizing siting to make hookup costs lower if so desired, such as by co-locating
green to *existing* power generation. Hookup costs then are just a short run to the existing
power substation(s) and use the existing high tension lines to take power to the city.

FYI, Switzerland has embraced this approach by co-locating green generation with existing
hydroelectric projects. A side benefit of this approach in addition to being cheaper for grid
hookup is that green generation compliments & offsets water consumption for power generation
which means that where the hydro is pre-existing, it effectively is a **free** power storage "battery"
for the green power source.

And this isn't pie-in-the-sky "concept demonstrator" stuff anymore, as Switzerland already has
several of these facilities already in operation:

Mutsee (AlpinSolar):
<https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/09/02/axpo-commissions-2-2-mw-vertical-alpine-pv-project-on-dam/
<https://www.axpo.com/us/en/about-us/media-and-politics/media-releases.detail.html/media-releases/2022/groesste-alpine-solaranlage-der-schweiz-vollstaendig-in-betrieb.html>

Albigna (Elektrizitätswerke Zürich (EWZ))
<https://www.pveurope.eu/solar-modules/switzerland-photovoltaic-system-mounted-dam-alps>

Lac des Toules (Poralu Marine):
<https://www.poralu.com/en/in-lac-des-toules-switzerland-poralu-marine-has-met-the-challenge-of-building-the-worlds-first-high-altitude-floating-solar-power-plant/>

Nant de Drance (Nant de Drance SA):
<https://electrek.co/2022/08/02/check-out-this-massive-swiss-water-battery-that-can-power-up-to-900k-homes/>

FYI: and South Korea too ( Q-CELLS):
<https://www.power-technology.com/features/inside-the-worlds-largest-dam-based-floating-solar-power-project/>
..plus this article states "The first ever floating PV system was built in 2007 in Aichi, Japan",
showing that this sort of technology has been maturing for over a decade.

-hh

Mitchell Holman

unread,

Feb 1, 2023, 9:53:58 AM2/1/23

to

Governor Swill <governo...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:510kthlpiif1k1a62...@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 19:59:39 -0600, David Hartung wrote:
>> Swill wrote:
>>> I'm still trying to work out what transmission lines have to do with
>>> solar panels on your roof. Pity Hartung didn't think about it.
>>
>>It is even more of a pity that you do not understand that not everyone
>>has the ability to put solar panels on their roofs.
>
> So? How is that relevant to how much it costs to generate electricity
> at home?
>
> Swill

Lets see: Free energy is falling from the
sky, here is a device that lets you capture
that energy, store it, use it, and even
sell it - and Hartung objects to it why,
again?

Mitchell Holman

unread,

Feb 1, 2023, 9:54:38 AM2/1/23

to

David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com> wrote in news:OcWdnZnsjOLDxUf-
nZ2dnZfq...@giganews.com:

Why is Mississippi losing population, Hartung?

David Hartung

unread,

Feb 1, 2023, 10:28:33 AM2/1/23

to

As I have said many times before, learn to read. I never said that I
object to the use of solar power, however I do believe that in most
cases solar power is not cost effective.

David Hartung

unread,

Feb 1, 2023, 10:29:36 AM2/1/23

to

What does that have to do with the discussion?

Governor Swill

unread,

Feb 1, 2023, 12:24:26 PM2/1/23

to

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 09:28:27 -0600, David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com>
wrote:

But you did post an article stating that solar power is a scam. You
don't object to scams?

>however I do believe that in most
>cases solar power is not cost effective.

You also believe that if you pray hard enough to some mysterious power
in the sky that your team will win the game this weekend.

Governor Swill

unread,

Feb 1, 2023, 12:25:24 PM2/1/23

to

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 06:16:46 -0600, David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com>
wrote:

Those lines already exist. There's no need to build new ones as your
cited article suggests.

Governor Swill

unread,

Feb 1, 2023, 12:27:47 PM2/1/23

to

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 06:17:34 -0600, David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com>
wrote:

Your homework assignment today, David, is to look up the word,
"sarcasm". It's due tomorrow.

Governor Swill

unread,

Feb 1, 2023, 12:29:40 PM2/1/23

to

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 09:29:30 -0600, David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com>
wrote:

Goose and gander. You used population loss as a criticism of
California. So, time to criticize your state full of inbreds because
it is also losing population. The reason being, inbreds don't live as
long as "normals".

Governor Swill

unread,

Feb 1, 2023, 12:37:31 PM2/1/23

to

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 06:18:59 -0600, David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com>

No, it wasn't.

That said, it was an observation on your article's bullshit claim that
point of use solar requires the building of additional transmission
lines at a cost estimate that is clearly inflated.

The article you posted is wrong in just about every respect. It uses
lots of time honored methods of deceiving and outright lying while
trying to project an image of intelligence, knowledge and credibility.

The basic take away you've expressed, that solar panels are not cost
effective for homeowners is WRONG.

Get over it.

-hh

unread,

Feb 1, 2023, 12:50:43 PM2/1/23

to

“ Building new solar projects is less expensive than operating existing coal plants”

< https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2023/01/30/building-new-solar-projects-is-less-expensive-than-operating-existing-coal-plants/>

It continues:
“ The study finds that the median cost of new solar in these communities is about
$24/MWh with low variance, while the median marginal cost of coal is $36/MWh
with higher variance.”

TL;DR: 33% cheaper than status quo.

-hh

unread,

Feb 2, 2023, 7:07:14 AM2/2/23

to

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 09:29:30 -0600, David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com>
wrote:

Mitchie never has anything to do with any discussion.

NoBody

unread,

Feb 2, 2023, 7:09:10 AM2/2/23

to

And all the citations that support what you just stated is where?
Talking out the wrong hole again.

>
>Get over it.

It's easy to get over lies.
>
>Swill

NoBody

unread,

Feb 2, 2023, 7:11:41 AM2/2/23

to

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 09:28:27 -0600, David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com>
wrote:

Liberals don't care about what you can afford while they exempt
themselves from rule they apply to you.

David Hartung

unread,

Feb 2, 2023, 10:00:27 AM2/2/23

to

Fair point.

Siri Cruise

unread,

Feb 2, 2023, 5:24:20 PM2/2/23

to

In article <3QednQzMU7OaTUb-...@giganews.com>,

David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com> wrote:

> >>>>>> Is "point of use" power generation practical for everybody?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, in the people's republic of California we are forced to
> >>>>> install point of use power generation whether practical or no.
> >>>>
> >>>> One more reason why California is losing population.

> Fair point.

Even worse: due to weather bringing flooding, we are being
required to build coffer dams on property lines with houses
inside and installing a water wheel powerred generator before
letting the water drain into the gutter.

Governor Swill

unread,

Feb 3, 2023, 1:19:31 AM2/3/23

to

On Thu, 02 Feb 2023 14:24:21 -0800, Siri Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>In article <3QednQzMU7OaTUb-...@giganews.com>,
> David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com> wrote:
>
>> >>>>>> Is "point of use" power generation practical for everybody?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Yes, in the people's republic of California we are forced to
>> >>>>> install point of use power generation whether practical or no.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> One more reason why California is losing population.
>
>> Fair point.
>
>Even worse: due to weather bringing flooding, we are being
>required to build coffer dams on property lines with houses
>inside and installing a water wheel powerred generator before
>letting the water drain into the gutter.

After which you extract the hydrogen from the water for refilling your
fuel cell powered movie cameras.

Swill
--
Reality is an acquired taste - Matthew Perry

Glory to the heroes! Glory to Ukraine!

Lee

unread,

Feb 3, 2023, 12:19:56 PM2/3/23

to

-hh wrote:

> On Monday, January 30, 2023 at 10:38:41 AM UTC-5, David Hartung wrote:
> > https://www.realclearwire.com/articles/2023/01/24/sunshine_might_be_
> > free_but_solar_power_is_not_cheap_877463.html
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Thought provoking.
>
> Yeah, because it is a bullshit article from a fossil fuels industry
> shill: <https://www.desmog.com/isaac-orr/>
>

Good catch.

> And damn sloppy too: try to find the "graph below" that the article
> references. Note too how it spends time explaining what LCOE is ..
> but then never uses that metric. Why? Golly, it couldn't be because
> those numbers would actually reveal that on an LCOE basis, solar &
> wind cost half as much as coal.
>
> > Mississippi residents are consistently told that renewable energy
> > sources, like solar panels, ....
>
> Yet the article talks about the costs of building more transmission
> lines:
>
> "According to the Midcontinent Independent Systems Operator (MISO),
> these transmission lines routinely cost between $2.5 million and $3.1
> million per mile."
>
> But one doesn't need new transmission lines for generation installed
> at point-of-use.
>
>

> -hh

--

NoBody

unread,

Feb 5, 2023, 10:46:00 AM2/5/23

to

On Fri, 03 Feb 2023 17:19:48 +0000, "Lee" <cle...@gmail.com> wrote:

>-hh wrote:
>
>> On Monday, January 30, 2023 at 10:38:41 AM UTC-5, David Hartung wrote:
>> > https://www.realclearwire.com/articles/2023/01/24/sunshine_might_be_
>> > free_but_solar_power_is_not_cheap_877463.html
>> >
>> > [...]
>> >
>> > Thought provoking.
>>
>> Yeah, because it is a bullshit article from a fossil fuels industry
>> shill: <https://www.desmog.com/isaac-orr/>
>>
>
>
> Good catch.

As opposed to the "bullshit articles" you post from the green energy
industry....

Gronk

unread,

Feb 6, 2023, 12:57:20 AM2/6/23

to

Governor Swill wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 19:57:35 -0600, David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com>
>> On 1/30/23 23:22, Governor Swill wrote:
>>> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 09:38:34 -0600, David Hartung <ju...@nogood.com>
>>>
>>>> https://www.realclearwire.com/articles/2023/01/24/sunshine_might_be_free_but_solar_power_is_not_cheap_877463.html
>>>>
>>>> [...]

>>>> Mississippi residents are consistently told that renewable energy

>>>> sources, like solar panels, are now the lowest-cost ways to generate
>>>> electricity, but these claims are based on creative accounting gimmicks
>>>> that only examine a small portion of the expenses incurred to integrate
>>>> solar onto the grid while excluding many others.
>>>>
>>>> When these hidden expenses are accounted for, it becomes obvious that
>>>> solar is much more expensive than Mississippi’s existing coal, natural
>>>> gas, and nuclear power plants and that adding more solar will increase
>>>> electricity prices for the families and businesses that rely upon it.
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> Thought provoking.
>>>
>>> Also a lie. As usual, they cherry pick their info to arrive at the
>>> conclusion they want to arrive at.
>>
>> Example?
>
> I believe -hh covered that in the post in which he exposed the author
> as a fossil fuel industry shill. But, for your comfort, here it is
> again.
>
> copy
>
> . . . because it is a bullshit article from a fossil fuels industry
> shill: <https://www.desmog.com/isaac-orr/>
>

> And damn sloppy too: try to find the "graph below" that the article
> references. Note too how it spends time explaining what LCOE is ..
> but then never uses that metric. Why? Golly, it couldn't be because
> those numbers would actually reveal that on an LCOE basis, solar &
> wind cost half as much as coal.
>
>> Mississippi residents are consistently told that renewable energy

>> sources, like solar panels, are now the lowest-cost ways to generate
>> electricity,

>
> Yet the article talks about the costs of building more transmission
> lines:
>
> "According to the Midcontinent Independent Systems Operator (MISO),
> these transmission lines routinely cost between $2.5 million and $3.1
> million per mile."
>
> But one doesn't need new transmission lines for generation installed
> at point-of-use.
>

> /copy
>
> And as he pointed out in another post, solar *reduces* the need for
> transmission lines (which cuts costs for *every* electricity user)
> because it destresses the grid due to so many users generating some of
> their own power.
>
> You, Hapsburg, are a fine example of southern inbreeding.

And Lee posted this, which David was unable to reconcile.
Wonder if David installed solar and applied for that rebate...

https://www.leafscore.com/solar-guide/benefits-of-going-solar/solar-reba
tes-and-incentives/mississippi/

Fact Check: Mississippi is ENCOURAGING
people to switch to solar.

Mississippi Solar Incentives for 2023
November 11, 2022

The complete list of Mississippi solar
incentives and tax credits for 2023,
plus how to take advantage.

In July, 2022, the Mississippi Public
Service Commission approved new Net
Renewable Generation Rules that go far
beyond most net metering mandates in
the U.S. Under the new rules,
homeowners may be eligible for a
$3,500 rebate when installing rooftop
solar in Mississippi, along with
ongoing net metering benefits.

As of August 2022, Mississippi Power
offers net metered customers 2.5
cents/kWh above the company’s
avoided-cost rate (which is around
3 cents per kWh) for excess energy
exported to the grid. For low-
income residential net metered
customers, the utility pays an
additional 2 cents/kWh on top of
the avoided-cost value. The Tennessee
Valley Authority (TVA) utility offers
a similar model of compensation to
customers producing solar electricity.