The voice in EOTW and Who is who maybe
Satsujinki
speaks in Rand's head, Just before that when Aginor, is feeding off
the True power, a strand touches Rand and Rand draws of it freely. I
believe this is the TP because of aggies reaction when rand takes hold
of it. And because of the fact it is so different to when Rand uses
the One power. So since rand is using the TP to destroy the Dark ones
Army. It is not the Creator who speaks in Rands head but the Dark one
through the link created by the TP. He has a chance to destroy rand
while Rand is using power drawn from him but says quoted from the
book.
"IT IS NOT HERE"
"I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE. IF
HE WILL."
The dragon reborn is never referred to as the chosen one, But Does not
Naeblis mean Chosen? Isn't Ishy the Chosen? And when Rand goes back to
the EOTW from the Battle Ishy is there waiting. and fails to do what
must be done. So I don't believe that this was the creator at all. I
believe it was the Dark one himself talking to Rand through a link
created by Rand drawing on the TP. He was telling Rand this is not
Tarmon Gaidon, Not here. I will take no part because the Chosen one
must bring you to me to SH to Tarmon Gaidon.
Now as for Aggie... BTW who is the only forsaken who refers to LTT as
some one other than Rand when speaking to him, Very much Like Moridin
and who tries to eliminate the fisher piece rather than take it to
Ba'alzamon. Aginors actions are much like those that everyone refers
to as the painful attempt to eliminate Rand. More so than Ishy's later
on much rather than bring the Fisher Piece over to his side as Ishy
has commanded. Aginor goes all out to eliminate him and ends up
getting burned inside out. Now many claim that Aginor is Halima or
some shit and that RJ has said such and such but as has been stated
people can say RJ Said so till the sun shines out their arse but it
does not make anything true until its in the books written in ink. So
far Aginor has shown more similarity personality wise to Moridin than
Ishy and from the EOTW it seems Aginor was sucking down more TP in one
chapter than Ishy touched in the whole three books he was in. And a
year and three quarters is more time to generate Saa than 6 months.
-
--
-"Bushido is being Dead."
Bugger
Satsujinki <ev...@evil.evil> wrote in message
news:853pes$v7$1...@news.ihug.co.nz...
he got recreated (at least not that we know of).
Satsujinki
news:L2ed4.264$Ov3....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
I dunno I think Asangar is the only one everyone was absolutely
certain of. And that the RJ said so's were saying Halima = that maid
for Egwene and Osangar= Dashiva. I cannot recall if the RJSS group say
RJ said which forsaken were reincarnated as which gar. And if this is
the case then it makes the theory a little bit more plausible.
news.apk.net
that's what Aginor thought was so funny -- Balthamel the lecher resurrected
as a woman.
Satsujinki <ev...@evil.evil> wrote in message
news:853qtn$2ka$1...@news.ihug.co.nz...
He Who Is Shannon
Satsujinki wrote:
>
> "news.apk.net" <tkin...@asapinc.com> wrote in message
> news:854q1i$1pe$1...@plonk.apk.net...
> | RJ supposedly said the Aginor = Osan'gar and Balthamel = Aran'gar.
> He said
> | that's what Aginor thought was so funny -- Balthamel the lecher
> resurrected
> | as a woman.
>
> RJ also said the Seanchan are all Homosexual and are taking prisoners
> back to Sean chan to make Gay porn movies. After this he then went on
> to say that Moiraine is not dead, her and Lanfear are in fact
> currently starring in a series of lesbian Porn movies in Saudi Arabia.
Mirthie
> I was just reading over that chapter where the creator apparently
> speaks in Rand's head, Just before that when Aginor, is feeding off
> the True power, a strand touches Rand and Rand draws of it freely. I
> believe this is the TP because of aggies reaction when rand takes hold
> of it. And because of the fact it is so different to when Rand uses
> the One power. So since rand is using the TP to destroy the Dark ones
> Army. It is not the Creator who speaks in Rands head but the Dark one
> through the link created by the TP. He has a chance to destroy rand
> while Rand is using power drawn from him but says quoted from the
> book.
> "IT IS NOT HERE"
> "I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE. IF
> HE WILL."
>
This makes a lot of sense...there's another phonebook where the DO is
talking and it's written in all caps also...I think you have this one
--
________________________________________
I'm an outkast, but don't count me out
Underground dwellaz,roaming beneath the cellars
Failed us with the system, ain't living how they tell us
Hideaway place, it's safe, they raise a nation of hate, erase a man for his
faith
They feed us lies, dress up my King in false disguise
Behind those eyes, soul of a savior I recognise
No compromise, while the whole world becomes corrupt
Tonight we break the surface for lives, we coming up
Brother take my hand, let's separate ourselves
Leave behind this place. Don't ever look back
-P.O.D
Satsujinki
Kolys Cordazar
> From: He Who Is Shannon <revsh...@earthlink.net>
> Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
> Newsgroups: alt.fan.robert-jordan
> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 21:56:28 GMT
> Subject: Re: The voice in EOTW and Who is who maybe
>
> ::hurriedly buys plane tickets to Saudi Arabia::
>
> Satsujinki wrote:
>>
He Who Is Shannon
mister c of nine
<revsh...@earthlink.net> spat out a tooth, picked out an eye,
squatted in the corner and spoke the following stuff:
>I'll take orders! Who wants copies of the video? ::takes notes::
hang on.
video?
who's the chick you're with in the video? how old is she?
send preview pics and i'll consider forking out the dosh for some wet
tissue amusement.
--
alt.CMMCollective: #0042 of 0069
"Mooching is Irrelevent."
---
"Blessed be the Followers of the
Coke Truck." - Old CMM Saying.
---
Brought to you by CGP Online
and the CMM Collective
http://www.omen.net.au/~cgp
<message ends>
Avatar
> I was just reading over that chapter where the creator apparently
> speaks in Rand's head, Just before that when Aginor, is feeding off
> the True power, a strand touches Rand and Rand draws of it freely. I
> believe this is the TP because of aggies reaction when rand takes hold
> of it. And because of the fact it is so different to when Rand uses
> the One power. So since rand is using the TP to destroy the Dark ones
> Army. It is not the Creator who speaks in Rands head but the Dark one
> through the link created by the TP. He has a chance to destroy rand
> while Rand is using power drawn from him but says quoted from the
> book.
No. You can't use the TP without the DO's permission. The Eye of
the World is a collection of pure Saidin (which killed the AOL AS
who purified it). This is either in the guide or the books, but it's
stated SOMEWHERE (yes! I need to reread!).
>
> "IT IS NOT HERE"
> "I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE. IF
> HE WILL."
>
> The dragon reborn is never referred to as the chosen one, But Does not
> Naeblis mean Chosen? Isn't Ishy the Chosen? And when Rand goes back to
> the EOTW from the Battle Ishy is there waiting. and fails to do what
> must be done. So I don't believe that this was the creator at all. I
> believe it was the Dark one himself talking to Rand through a link
> created by Rand drawing on the TP. He was telling Rand this is not
> Tarmon Gaidon, Not here. I will take no part because the Chosen one
> must bring you to me to SH to Tarmon Gaidon.
>
>
> Now as for Aggie... BTW who is the only forsaken who refers to LTT as
> some one other than Rand when speaking to him,
I take it you meant refers to Rand as someone other than LTT?
> Very much Like Moridin
> and who tries to eliminate the fisher piece rather than take it to
> Ba'alzamon. Aginors actions are much like those that everyone refers
> to as the painful attempt to eliminate Rand.
Painful attempt to eliminate Rand? That's a bit of interpretation
on your part. Most people think Aginor burned himself out trying
to draw power (Saidin) faster than Rand. Rand didn't seem to do
anything directly to him, and Aginor didn't seem to attack Rand
directly.
Ishamael, of course, DID attack Rand directly, on several
occasions. That's explicitly stated in the text, whereas Aginor's
supposed "attack" is not.
> More so than Ishy's later
> on much rather than bring the Fisher Piece over to his side as Ishy
> has commanded. Aginor goes all out to eliminate him and ends up
> getting burned inside out. Now many claim that Aginor is Halima or
> some shit
Halima? Aginor? No... Aginor is Osan'Gar, not Aran'Gar.
Your earlier discussions were thought out much better.. I
think you need a reread worse than I do.
If you would be so kind as to pull out Lord of Chaos and
cite the passage where Osan'Gar tells us what his former line
of work was. He states it clearly, could you do that for us?
I would, but I don't have the book handy.
Anyway, you'll find it quite analogous to Aginor's former
line of work, in the AOL.
> and that RJ has said such and such but as has been stated
> people can say RJ Said so till the sun shines out their arse but it
> does not make anything true until its in the books written in ink. So
> far Aginor has shown more similarity personality wise to Moridin than
> Ishy and from the EOTW it seems Aginor was sucking down more TP in one
> chapter than Ishy touched in the whole three books he was in. And a
> year and three quarters is more time to generate Saa than 6 months.
How much time passed between Aginor's death and Ishamael's? Has
it only been 6 months since the end of TDR?
Personality wise, I don't see any similarity between Moridin and
Aginor, and while there are differences between Moridin and Ishamael's
personality, they seem to be based on the difference of POV
we're presented with when we're shown one or the other.
Trying to say that Aginor is not Osan'Gar and Bethlamel (sp?) is
not Aran'Gar/Halima, or saying that the Eye of the World was
a concentration of True Power is like saying Rand has really
been channelling Saidar all along, and that's the reason he gets
such bad headaches. You'll find just as much evidence for any
of the above.
Avatar
> I dunno I think Asangar is the only one everyone was absolutely
> certain of. And that the RJ said so's were saying Halima = that maid
> for Egwene and Osangar= Dashiva. I cannot recall if the RJSS group say
> RJ said which forsaken were reincarnated as which gar. And if this is
> the case then it makes the theory a little bit more plausible.
Halima/Aran'gar IS Egwene's maid and Dashiva may very well
be Osan'gar (but that's far from proven. Suffice to say he's very
likely not who he seems, however). This doesn't change the fact
that Aran'gar is Balthamel and Osan'gar is Aginor. The books give
enough hints when it introduces them, and RJ has of course said
as much, for those of us that're a little slow on the uptake.
Remember, the "RJ said so's" have only stated that Aginor =
Osan'gar and Balthamel = Aran'gar is what RJ has told us. Their
further conclusions, that Osan'gar is Dashiva, is unproven at
the present time, and has never been stated by RJ.
Balrog
> "IT IS NOT HERE"
> "I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE. IF
> HE WILL."
>
> The dragon reborn is never referred to as the chosen one, But Does not
> Naeblis mean Chosen? Isn't Ishy the Chosen? And when Rand goes back to
> the EOTW from the Battle Ishy is there waiting. and fails to do what
> must be done. So I don't believe that this was the creator at all. I
> believe it was the Dark one himself talking to Rand through a link
> created by Rand drawing on the TP. He was telling Rand this is not
> Tarmon Gaidon, Not here. I will take no part because the Chosen one
> must bring you to me to SH to Tarmon Gaidon.
This makes some sence, but I really don't see the DO saying that the Chosen
One can so what must be done IF HE WILL. The DO would command him to do so.
I find it hard to belive that those word was said by the DO.
> Now as for Aggie... BTW who is the only forsaken who refers to LTT as
> some one other than Rand when speaking to him, Very much Like Moridin
> and who tries to eliminate the fisher piece rather than take it to
> Ba'alzamon. Aginors actions are much like those that everyone refers
> to as the painful attempt to eliminate Rand. More so than Ishy's later
> on much rather than bring the Fisher Piece over to his side as Ishy
> has commanded. Aginor goes all out to eliminate him and ends up
> getting burned inside out. Now many claim that Aginor is Halima or
> some shit and that RJ has said such and such but as has been stated
> people can say RJ Said so till the sun shines out their arse but it
> does not make anything true until its in the books written in ink. So
> far Aginor has shown more similarity personality wise to Moridin than
> Ishy and from the EOTW it seems Aginor was sucking down more TP in one
> chapter than Ishy touched in the whole three books he was in. And a
> year and three quarters is more time to generate Saa than 6 months.
We don't know much about Aginor, but we know he created the Trollocs.
Osan'gar said so too. He IS Osan'gar. Ishamael is a much better candidate
for Nae'blis, but I seem to say this a lot, so I will stop soon. I just
gotta say one thing.
Some people had argued that Moridin is very sane and cool, but Ishamael was
a raving lunitic. I think their behavior is very much the same, they both
seem to be half insane. First of, one of the forsaken stated that he thought
Ishy was "more than half mad". I can't remember who or when. Ishy seems to
be cool and composed sometimes, when we see him meet with Rand and the
others. Other times, he seems to get very fast mad and try something Rash.
It's the same with Moridin. He manages to be cool and composed when he meets
someone, especially in SL with Rand, but he has downfalls. He squizes all
the blood out of one of his servants without notising what he is doing,
until after. And when he is thinking about Rand and the Sh'arah game, he
suddenly snaps into a rage and almost crushes to Fisher piece to powder. And
then he laughs and tears run down his cheek without him notising it. Is he
sane. I would say he is just like Ishamael in behaviour. (Or better yet, he
IS Ishamael reincarnated).
--
Balrog
Avatar
Satsujinki wrote:
> "Avatar" <ava...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:387AD58C...@earthlink.net...
> | Remember, the "RJ said so's" have only stated that Aginor =
> | Osan'gar and Balthamel = Aran'gar is what RJ has told us. Their
> | further conclusions, that Osan'gar is Dashiva, is unproven at
> | the present time, and has never been stated by RJ.
>
> Actually I remembered it now, the RJSS group say that RJ finally gave
> in and said who the gars were pretending to be. Halima and Dashiva.
> But he did not give in and say which forsaken were the Gars.
No, you still have it backwards. We do NOT know who or where
Osan'gar is, other than that he is Aginor. We DO know where Aran'gar
is, but this is stated EXPLICITLY in the text, when Halima introduces
herself to the BA Aes Sedai.
Please tell me you see the difference here. Please tell me you have
some idea what's going on.. RJ has not told us "who the gars were
pretending to be". We in fact do not know where Osan'gar is, and
the books TELL us where Aran'gar is, so why would RJ tell us this?
RJ has told us, flat out, who the Gars used to be, in their former
life.
Avatar
Satsujinki wrote:
> "Avatar" <ava...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:387AD490...@earthlink.net...
> | Satsujinki wrote:
> |
> | > I was just reading over that chapter where the creator apparently
> | > speaks in Rand's head, Just before that when Aginor, is feeding
> off
> | > the True power, a strand touches Rand and Rand draws of it freely.
> I
> | > believe this is the TP because of aggies reaction when rand takes
> hold
> | > of it. And because of the fact it is so different to when Rand
> uses
> | > the One power. So since rand is using the TP to destroy the Dark
> ones
> | > Army. It is not the Creator who speaks in Rands head but the Dark
> one
> | > through the link created by the TP. He has a chance to destroy
> rand
> | > while Rand is using power drawn from him but says quoted from the
> | > book.
> |
> | No. You can't use the TP without the DO's permission. The Eye of
> | the World is a collection of pure Saidin (which killed the AOL AS
> | who purified it). This is either in the guide or the books, but it's
> | stated SOMEWHERE (yes! I need to reread!).
>
> As Aginor was already drawing it it maybe that When rand stole the
> thread that The Dark one gives you access but he cannot stop you from
> drawing once you are drawing it until you stop. Yes the EOTW had pure
> Saidin but Rand does not seem to draw from this.
> I need to reread but doesn't rand then Draw from saidin in his fight
> with Ishy? Why would Aginor need to draw the the Saidin from the EOTW
> The other
> tell tale sign is it Is nothing like Saidin in the way it feels.
>
It's nothing like Saidin in the way it feels for two reasons: One,
Rand is unexperienced with Saidin, so he reacts with Power Acquisition
Syndrome (as the rec.arts people call it). Every time in EotW, when Rand
channels Saidin, he has an after effect. It happens each time, from when
he refreshes Bela to calling down lightning at the inn to channelling
against the shadow's army at the end. Each time, the after effect occurs
closer to the time when the actual channelling took place, and the effect
is more severe. Remember how he didnt suffer too much from refreshing Bela
and the after effect didnt occur until Moiraine was confronting the white
cloaks, but when he called lightning the effects were pretty soon after:
He got very sick. When he channels at the Eye, the effects are immediate
and he gets sort of brain blasted, he has trouble remembering anything or
understanding whats going on. Since he has reached the point where his
channeling and channeling sickness times occur simultaneously, he is ready
to begin learning to actually channel intentionally, and siezing saidin,
etc etc. (which is why the description of channeling becomes more
elaborate in later books).
Also, the saidin in the Eye was pure, so of course the effect was
different. It lacked the bile element that tainted saidin is notorious
for.
There has been some discussion about why Aginor would want the Saidin
in the Eye. Greed? Or perhaps stored saidin can be drawn in greater
quantity without burning yourself out? Aginor seemed to believe this, he
drew it in as fast as he could, but it zapped him. On the other hand, why
would Aginor be fighting for the TP? He's a forsaken, he has freedom to
use the TP whenever he likes. Why would he be in a big hurry to draw it
in?
> when he has the Dark ones shield against the Taint? and How dioes rand
> continue to Draw Saidin without the taint when he travels to the
> Blight and Destroys the Trolloc army? He is outside the Eye of the
> world. and so should be unable to draw from this source.
Sorry to break up your quote, but I wanted to handle this separately.
Rand travels all over the place at the end of TEotW, and seems to end up
in TAR. The pulsing _white_ cord follows him everywhere, connecting him
with the eye. That's another key way we know its the One Power, not the
True Power or some dark shielded one power. Ishamael has BLACK cords, Rand
(when he is drawing from the Eye) has WHITE cords. If it WERE the TP,
would the cords connecting to Rand not be black also? Why white?
>
> | >
> | > "IT IS NOT HERE"
> | > "I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE
> DONE. IF
> | > HE WILL."
> | >
> | > The dragon reborn is never referred to as the chosen one, But Does
> not
> | > Naeblis mean Chosen? Isn't Ishy the Chosen? And when Rand goes
> back to
> | > the EOTW from the Battle Ishy is there waiting. and fails to do
> what
> | > must be done. So I don't believe that this was the creator at all.
> I
> | > believe it was the Dark one himself talking to Rand through a link
> | > created by Rand drawing on the TP. He was telling Rand this is not
> | > Tarmon Gaidon, Not here. I will take no part because the Chosen
> one
> | > must bring you to me to SH to Tarmon Gaidon.
> | >
> |
> | >
> | > Now as for Aggie... BTW who is the only forsaken who refers to
> LTT as
> | > some one other than Rand when speaking to him,
> |
> | I take it you meant refers to Rand as someone other than LTT?
>
> No Aggie says I have stood toe to toe with the Lord of the
> morning.<LTT> Rather than directing the comment at Rand as if Rand is
> LTT he talks of LTT as some one else.
Yes, because he is talking about his encounter with LTT in the Age of
Legends. At that point in the books, they had not figured out Rand was
the Dragon Reborn. They (the Forsaken, Moiraine, etc.) had figured out
that ONE of three boys, all the same age and from the Two Rivers, was
the Dragon Reborn, and therefore LTT, but they didn't know which one.
Moridin, by the way, knows exactly who Rand and LTT are, and
he knows they share the same soul. Moridin seems to have a greater
grasp of the situation than most of the other characters in the books.
>
> | > Very much Like Moridin
> | > and who tries to eliminate the fisher piece rather than take it to
> | > Ba'alzamon. Aginors actions are much like those that everyone
> refers
> | > to as the painful attempt to eliminate Rand.
> |
> | Painful attempt to eliminate Rand? That's a bit of
> interpretation
> | on your part. Most people think Aginor burned himself out trying
> | to draw power (Saidin) faster than Rand. Rand didn't seem to do
> | anything directly to him, and Aginor didn't seem to attack Rand
> | directly.
>
> Well he did try to eliminate rand, that was his intention. Tell me
> that is not what he was there trying to do? And he failed painfully
> because Rand sucked him intoa war over who could draw the Most TP. He
> burned himself out yes. But he still died painfully in a battle of the
> Wills with Rand. Once.
I would say that he attacked everybody BUT Rand, in fact.
He hurled Lan around, Bathamel (I spell his name differently
every time!) had some fun with Nynaeve, Aginor did something
or another to Moiraine (and Egwene?). Those could all be
called actual attacks.
>
> | Ishamael, of course, DID attack Rand directly, on several
> | occasions. That's explicitly stated in the text, whereas Aginor's
> | supposed "attack" is not.
>
> I am sorry I suppose a forsaken chasing after you intending to Kill
> you rather than take you to Ba'alzamon as instructed is not actually
> an attack. Whatever. Did you know it is legally assault if you feel
> threatened and in danger from what some one says to you?
Heh. Ishy threw balefire straight at Rand. Aginor "chased him and
engaged in a battle of wills" or some such. Which is a better description
of attempting to obliterate the Fisher piece? Plus, we already know
Aginor is Osan'gar, so this whole thread is irrelavent. Aginor disobeyed
Ishamael, so why would he be made Nae'blis? There are plenty of
irrefutable reasons Aginor is not Moridin, such tho that I'll be surprised
if you can find anybody who will agree with you on this decidedly
LOONY theory.
>
> |
> | > More so than Ishy's later
> | > on much rather than bring the Fisher Piece over to his side as
> Ishy
> | > has commanded. Aginor goes all out to eliminate him and ends up
> | > getting burned inside out. Now many claim that Aginor is Halima or
> | > some shit
> |
> | Halima? Aginor? No... Aginor is Osan'Gar, not Aran'Gar.
> | Your earlier discussions were thought out much better.. I
> | think you need a reread worse than I do.
> |
> | If you would be so kind as to pull out Lord of Chaos and
> | cite the passage where Osan'Gar tells us what his former line
> | of work was. He states it clearly, could you do that for us?
> | I would, but I don't have the book handy.
> |
> | Anyway, you'll find it quite analogous to Aginor's former
> | line of work, in the AOL.
>
> I believe it says something along the lines that Osangar Reflects on
> assisting in the creation of certain creatures. But Aginor was
> apparently responsible for said creation. this could mean Osangar is
> some one who assisted Aginor.
This is worse than intentionally ignoring clues. Now you're trying
to make clues mean the opposite of what they were intended. Aginor
assisted in the creation of the shadow creatures. His designs were based
off of instructions from the Dark One. He did not come up with
them on his own.
> | > and that RJ has said such and such but as has been stated
> | > people can say RJ Said so till the sun shines out their arse but
> it
> | > does not make anything true until its in the books written in ink.
> So
> | > far Aginor has shown more similarity personality wise to Moridin
> than
> | > Ishy and from the EOTW it seems Aginor was sucking down more TP in
> one
> | > chapter than Ishy touched in the whole three books he was in. And
> a
> | > year and three quarters is more time to generate Saa than 6
> months.
> |
> | How much time passed between Aginor's death and Ishamael's? Has
> | it only been 6 months since the end of TDR?
> |
> | Personality wise, I don't see any similarity between Moridin and
> | Aginor, and while there are differences between Moridin and
> Ishamael's
> | personality, they seem to be based on the difference of POV
> | we're presented with when we're shown one or the other.
>
> Personality wise I see a lot more similarity between Aginior and
> Moridin than Moridin and Ishy. Well I see no similarity between Ishy
> and Moridin. and some similarity between Aginor and Moridin.
No similarity? They're both obsessed with the pattern and their
place in it. They're both philosophical and metaphorical about the
pattern and the Dragon Reborn. They both have violent outbursts
of temper. And very convincingly, they seem more concerned about
the interests of the shadow than their own personal interests. All the
other Forsaken, Aginor included, are more concerned with their
own personal agendas, such as becoming nae'blis.
Ishamael/Moridin probably know quite well that the DO winning
means the end of the pattern and the world, but they alone are
perfectly willing to accomplish that. Rather than worry about having
anything left to rule like the other Forsaken. Its a marked contrast
between Ishamael/Moridin and every other shadow agent or spawn
we've encountered, with the possible exception of grey men (although
who knows what they were told to convince them before hand?).
> | Trying to say that Aginor is not Osan'Gar and Bethlamel (sp?) is
> | not Aran'Gar/Halima, or saying that the Eye of the World was
> | a concentration of True Power is like saying Rand has really
> | been channelling Saidar all along, and that's the reason he gets
> | such bad headaches. You'll find just as much evidence for any
> | of the above.
>
> I never said the EOTW world was a concentration of TP. If that is what
> you think I said then you are badly misinterpreting what I am saying
> and this could explain why you find it so easy to believe Ishy is
> Morrie. And I never said Balthamel was not Aran'gar.
> All I did was say that I was not to clear on the who is who theories
> of The Gars.
Well, I thought that it was fairly clear that throughout the end of
TEotW, Rand was using the same power. If he had drawn on the
power at the Eye, and then drawn on some markedly different
type of power for a span of time, then had gone back to drawing
from the Eye, I'd find this believable, but he seems to draw the same
hot white power all along. Remember that Aginor and Balthamel
were at the Eye FOR the Eye, not for Rand & Company, who they
are surprised to encounter. It is the Eye that Aginor draws from,
so for it to be TP he's pulling it, that would mean the Eye was a
concentration of TP, which makes no sense.
Fenske
> No, you still have it backwards. We do NOT know who or where
> Osan'gar is, other than that he is Aginor. We DO know where Aran'gar
> is, but this is stated EXPLICITLY in the text, when Halima introduces
> herself to the BA Aes Sedai.
>
> Please tell me you see the difference here. Please tell me you have
> some idea what's going on.. RJ has not told us "who the gars were
> pretending to be". We in fact do not know where Osan'gar is, and
> the books TELL us where Aran'gar is, so why would RJ tell us this?
> RJ has told us, flat out, who the Gars used to be, in their former
> life.
You do realize that using "RJ Said So" as proof is considered, by
those who weren't at the appearance that he supposedly said it,
worthless, right?
I agree the 'gars are A&B, but only because of what I read in LOC and
some of thier other appearances. Maybe I'm wrong and that isn't
enough info and they are someone completly different, but I certainly
am not going to base my opinion on "So and so said Whathisname was at
a signing and RJ told him personally that the 'gars were A&B." I
could just as easily say that Chucky told me that he saw RJ at his
last Austrailian appearance and RJ told Chuck that the darkness that
surrounded Ishamael all the time was caused by monkeys flying out of
his ass. It must be true cuz i said RJ said so, right?
Fenske
Crap... hope I didn't sound too bitchy there... just tryin to point
out saying RJSS isn't gonna fly with most ppl here, mmmkay?
Satsujinki
when he has the Dark ones shield against the Taint? and How dioes rand
continue to Draw Saidin without the taint when he travels to the
Blight and Destroys the Trolloc army? He is outside the Eye of the
world. and so should be unable to draw from this source. The other
tell tale sign is it Is nothing like Saidin in the way it feels.
| >
| > "IT IS NOT HERE"
| > "I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE
DONE. IF
| > HE WILL."
| >
| > The dragon reborn is never referred to as the chosen one, But Does
not
| > Naeblis mean Chosen? Isn't Ishy the Chosen? And when Rand goes
back to
| > the EOTW from the Battle Ishy is there waiting. and fails to do
what
| > must be done. So I don't believe that this was the creator at all.
I
| > believe it was the Dark one himself talking to Rand through a link
| > created by Rand drawing on the TP. He was telling Rand this is not
| > Tarmon Gaidon, Not here. I will take no part because the Chosen
one
| > must bring you to me to SH to Tarmon Gaidon.
| >
|
| >
| > Now as for Aggie... BTW who is the only forsaken who refers to
LTT as
| > some one other than Rand when speaking to him,
|
| I take it you meant refers to Rand as someone other than LTT?
No Aggie says I have stood toe to toe with the Lord of the
morning.<LTT> Rather than directing the comment at Rand as if Rand is
LTT he talks of LTT as some one else.
|
| > Very much Like Moridin
| > and who tries to eliminate the fisher piece rather than take it to
| > Ba'alzamon. Aginors actions are much like those that everyone
refers
| > to as the painful attempt to eliminate Rand.
|
| Painful attempt to eliminate Rand? That's a bit of
interpretation
| on your part. Most people think Aginor burned himself out trying
| to draw power (Saidin) faster than Rand. Rand didn't seem to do
| anything directly to him, and Aginor didn't seem to attack Rand
| directly.
Well he did try to eliminate rand, that was his intention. Tell me
that is not what he was there trying to do? And he failed painfully
because Rand sucked him intoa war over who could draw the Most TP. He
burned himself out yes. But he still died painfully in a battle of the
Wills with Rand. Once.
|
| Ishamael, of course, DID attack Rand directly, on several
| occasions. That's explicitly stated in the text, whereas Aginor's
| supposed "attack" is not.
I am sorry I suppose a forsaken chasing after you intending to Kill
you rather than take you to Ba'alzamon as instructed is not actually
an attack. Whatever. Did you know it is legally assault if you feel
threatened and in danger from what some one says to you?
|
| > More so than Ishy's later
| > on much rather than bring the Fisher Piece over to his side as
Ishy
| > has commanded. Aginor goes all out to eliminate him and ends up
| > getting burned inside out. Now many claim that Aginor is Halima or
| > some shit
|
| Halima? Aginor? No... Aginor is Osan'Gar, not Aran'Gar.
| Your earlier discussions were thought out much better.. I
| think you need a reread worse than I do.
|
| If you would be so kind as to pull out Lord of Chaos and
| cite the passage where Osan'Gar tells us what his former line
| of work was. He states it clearly, could you do that for us?
| I would, but I don't have the book handy.
|
| Anyway, you'll find it quite analogous to Aginor's former
| line of work, in the AOL.
I believe it says something along the lines that Osangar Reflects on
assisting in the creation of certain creatures. But Aginor was
apparently responsible for said creation. this could mean Osangar is
some one who assisted Aginor.
|
| > and that RJ has said such and such but as has been stated
| > people can say RJ Said so till the sun shines out their arse but
it
| > does not make anything true until its in the books written in ink.
So
| > far Aginor has shown more similarity personality wise to Moridin
than
| > Ishy and from the EOTW it seems Aginor was sucking down more TP in
one
| > chapter than Ishy touched in the whole three books he was in. And
a
| > year and three quarters is more time to generate Saa than 6
months.
|
| How much time passed between Aginor's death and Ishamael's? Has
| it only been 6 months since the end of TDR?
|
| Personality wise, I don't see any similarity between Moridin and
| Aginor, and while there are differences between Moridin and
Ishamael's
| personality, they seem to be based on the difference of POV
| we're presented with when we're shown one or the other.
Personality wise I see a lot more similarity between Aginior and
Moridin than Moridin and Ishy. Well I see no similarity between Ishy
and Moridin. and some similarity between Aginor and Moridin.
|
Satsujinki
| Remember, the "RJ said so's" have only stated that Aginor =
| Osan'gar and Balthamel = Aran'gar is what RJ has told us. Their
| further conclusions, that Osan'gar is Dashiva, is unproven at
| the present time, and has never been stated by RJ.
Actually I remembered it now, the RJSS group say that RJ finally gave
in and said who the gars were pretending to be. Halima and Dashiva.
But he did not give in and say which forsaken were the Gars.
Satsujinki
| Halima? Aginor? No... Aginor is Osan'Gar, not Aran'Gar.
| Your earlier discussions were thought out much better.. I
| think you need a reread worse than I do.
Actually my earlier discussions were going purely off memory, I
stumbled upon the similarity between Aginor and Moridin purely by
accident while I was Reading up on this so called Creator voice. Which
it turns out is the Dark one. I wasn't even looking for a new angle on
the who is Moridin theory. So this one strikes me as a good
possibility since it just fits the thoughts of Moridin better than
Ishy's did. The whole encounter reads like the Sharah game encounter.
None of Ishy's do.
So while you observe that this one is less thought out than my
previous one it says a lot for the argument that this one has recent
research in it. And your observation is highly inaccurate. What does
that suggest?
Fenske
Yes he does. When Rand and Aggy are trying to gain control of the Eye
from each other, they both have cords attached to them the draw from
the Eye. Rand then cuts Aggy's cord, and the sudden loss of the
connection causes the power he already had to go haywire and fry him.
> I need to reread but doesn't rand then Draw from saidin in his fight
> with Ishy? Why would Aginor need to draw the the Saidin from the EOTW
> when he has the Dark ones shield against the Taint? and How dioes rand
> continue to Draw Saidin without the taint when he travels to the
> Blight and Destroys the Trolloc army? He is outside the Eye of the
> world. and so should be unable to draw from this source. The other
> tell tale sign is it Is nothing like Saidin in the way it feels.
He does still draw from the Eye when he fights Ishy and destroys the
army. The cord is still there on him. When he appeared above the
battle, he wasn't completly there. It was like when he fought Ishy in
the sky over Falme in tGH, like a waking dream world. The reason the
power he was drawing felt different from normal Saidin is because it
was not tainted at all. The oilly feeling wasn't there because the
Eye had been purified into taintless Saidin.
The 'gars are A&B, 90% probability I'd say. Osan's POV in LOC being
the most evidence of this. If I'm wrong? Ah well, wouldn't be the
first time.
Fenske
Satsujinki
| It's nothing like Saidin in the way it feels for two reasons:
One,
| Rand is unexperienced with Saidin, so he reacts with Power
Acquisition
| Syndrome (as the rec.arts people call it). Every time in EotW, when
Rand
| channels Saidin, he has an after effect. It happens each time, from
when
| he refreshes Bela to calling down lightning at the inn to
channelling
| against the shadow's army at the end. Each time, the after effect
occurs
| closer to the time when the actual channelling took place, and the
effect
| is more severe. Remember how he didnt suffer too much from
refreshing Bela
| and the after effect didnt occur until Moiraine was confronting the
white
| cloaks, but when he called lightning the effects were pretty soon
after:
It is the description of how it feels to him as he draws it that is
different to the later times and it is not just because of the
sickness.
Aginor believed he could draw more because he was older and more
experienced and tried to Draw more than Rand was taking. Why would he
be fighting for it? Why would he need it? do you remember Aginors
condition at the time and what the TP was doing? do you also remember
it was a strong Pulsing line of white heat that Led off into the
distance, and not to the eye? The power was coming from the dark one.
It was rejuvenating Aginor, restoring his physical body and health.
|
| > when he has the Dark ones shield against the Taint? and How dioes
rand
| > continue to Draw Saidin without the taint when he travels to the
| > Blight and Destroys the Trolloc army? He is outside the Eye of the
| > world. and so should be unable to draw from this source.
|
| Sorry to break up your quote, but I wanted to handle this
separately.
| Rand travels all over the place at the end of TEotW, and seems to
end up
| in TAR. The pulsing _white_ cord follows him everywhere, connecting
him
| with the eye. That's another key way we know its the One Power, not
the
| True Power or some dark shielded one power. Ishamael has BLACK
cords, Rand
| (when he is drawing from the Eye) has WHITE cords. If it WERE the
TP,
| would the cords connecting to Rand not be black also? Why white?
Black cords when they are not being used. White when they are full of
the True power. Rand is not in TAR at the battle. He is physically
there everyone can see him and what he does.
Ishameal already knew,He had sent Aginor to bring Rand to him.
| Moridin, by the way, knows exactly who Rand and LTT are, and
| he knows they share the same soul. Moridin seems to have a greater
| grasp of the situation than most of the other characters in the
books.
And Aginor seems to show that same grasp.
Okay so Aginor disobeyed The dark one once and died. Then why the fuck
would the dark one ressurect IShy and make him Naeblis after his
massive and utter failures and please do not tell me it was because of
his long history, that is utter bullshit.
Aside from the fact you are oversimplfying what happened in the
encounters so as to change the context, and relavence. I have been
thinking about the three encounters with Rand of Ishy's. Each of those
encounters had Ishy try to convert Rand, and Then Rand attack Ishy. So
ishy was acting in self defense. In tear he was trying to do nothing
more than escape. but Rand would not let him. His encounters are less
and less like the so coalled encounter that Moridin describes in POD
the more you look at them and analyze them. But I will say that this
is from memory, I will have to wait for the chapter readers to get to
these encounters and see what they say about them.
The Idea of Moridin being Ishy reborn is the loonest most fucked up
theory there is. There is more supportive evidence that Moridin is
Eric Cartman than Ishamael.
| > Personality wise I see a lot more similarity between Aginior and
| > Moridin than Moridin and Ishy. Well I see no similarity between
Ishy
| > and Moridin. and some similarity between Aginor and Moridin.
|
| No similarity? They're both obsessed with the pattern and their
| place in it. They're both philosophical and metaphorical about the
| pattern and the Dragon Reborn. They both have violent outbursts
| of temper. And very convincingly, they seem more concerned about
| the interests of the shadow than their own personal interests. All
the
| other Forsaken, Aginor included, are more concerned with their
| own personal agendas, such as becoming nae'blis.
Sorry? I see Moridin as being more obsessed with his own current
position than with the Dark one. And this is more like Aginor.
|
| Ishamael/Moridin probably know quite well that the DO winning
| means the end of the pattern and the world, but they alone are
| perfectly willing to accomplish that. Rather than worry about having
| anything left to rule like the other Forsaken. Its a marked contrast
| between Ishamael/Moridin and every other shadow agent or spawn
| we've encountered, with the possible exception of grey men (although
| who knows what they were told to convince them before hand?).
|
| Well, I thought that it was fairly clear that throughout the end
of
| TEotW, Rand was using the same power. If he had drawn on the
| power at the Eye, and then drawn on some markedly different
| type of power for a span of time, then had gone back to drawing
| from the Eye, I'd find this believable, but he seems to draw the
same
| hot white power all along. Remember that Aginor and Balthamel
| were at the Eye FOR the Eye, not for Rand & Company, who they
| are surprised to encounter. It is the Eye that Aginor draws from,
| so for it to be TP he's pulling it, that would mean the Eye was a
| concentration of TP, which makes no sense.
Thats weird if you read Aginors point of view from it he is there to
take Rand to Baalzamon.
Colen 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills
up to write:
>Okay so Aginor disobeyed The dark one once and died. Then why the fuck
>would the dark one ressurect IShy and make him Naeblis after his
>massive and utter failures and please do not tell me it was because of
>his long history, that is utter bullshit.
Tell me the name of ONE forsaken who did more to help the Dark One's
cause than Ishamael. Did any of the others:
...Destroy a flowering civilisation in the Trolloc Wars?
...Turn Artur Hawkwing, the greatest king of all time, into a puppet?
...Infiltrate the White Tower?
Hmm? If anyone else can match that record, please let me know; I'd love
to hear of them.
--
Colen 'Not Colin' McAlister | License to Skrill
Email: dema...@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time
Stargen
Satsujinki <ev...@evil.evil> wrote in message
> "Colen 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills"
> <dema...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:sE3PiMAQ...@whitten.demon.co.uk...
> | One fine day in the middle of the night, Satsujinki <ev...@evil.evil>
> got
> | up to write:
> |
> fuck
> | >would the dark one ressurect IShy and make him Naeblis after his
> | >massive and utter failures and please do not tell me it was because
> of
> | >his long history, that is utter bullshit.
> |
> | cause than Ishamael. Did any of the others:
> |
> | ...Destroy a flowering civilisation in the Trolloc Wars?
> | ...Turn Artur Hawkwing, the greatest king of all time, into a
> puppet?
> | ...Infiltrate the White Tower?
> |
> | Hmm? If anyone else can match that record, please let me know; I'd
> love
> | to hear of them.
>
> one.
>
Plus, her and Greandal kept him occupied while they were trapped in the
Bore.
--
Stargen
Sex-Therapist
Happy, Horny, and Healthy
St. Chucky the Chunderous
> No, you still have it backwards. We do NOT know who or where
>Osan'gar is, other than that he is Aginor. We DO know where Aran'gar
>is, but this is stated EXPLICITLY in the text, when Halima introduces
>herself to the BA Aes Sedai.
But he said RJ said so. RJ said that Aran'gar is Halima, he also said
that Osan'gar is Dashiva, he also said that Halima is Balthamel, he
also said that Dashiva is Aginor, he also said that Moridin is the
Staypuft Marshmallow Man.
> Please tell me you see the difference here. Please tell me you have
>some idea what's going on..
*spank*
That was unnecessary. Condescension is not nice, now is it? *pats
Avatar's head* No it's not.
>RJ has not told us "who the gars were
>pretending to be".
He hasn't told me anything at all. Except the stuff in the books,
which I think is worth more than what he said to a nerd at a signing.
Let's all re-read the books.
>We in fact do not know where Osan'gar is, and
>the books TELL us where Aran'gar is, so why would RJ tell us this?
I agree with this percentage of the above post. Not that my agreement
is necessary or valuable.
>RJ has told us, flat out, who the Gars used to be, in their former
>life.
No he hasn't.
St. Chuck
--
"Expecting kindness is futile." The CMM Collective.
"Lungfish are Irrelevent." 13 of 12, the CMM Collective.
"Tia mi aven Moridin isainde trollocus." (the Grave is no bar to my Troll)
Full sig & website - http://www.omen.net.au/~hatboy/signature.htm
St. Chucky the Chunderous
wrote:
>Lanfear: Drilled the bore, best thing anyone could do for the dark
>one.
*applause*
And she didn't fuck that up, did she Satters?
No sir!
St. Chuck
(the above was not sarcasm, but cheerful agreement)
St. Chucky the Chunderous
wrote:
>I agree the 'gars are A&B, but only because of what I read in LOC and
>some of thier other appearances. Maybe I'm wrong and that isn't
>enough info and they are someone completly different, but I certainly
>am not going to base my opinion on "So and so said Whathisname was at
>a signing and RJ told him personally that the 'gars were A&B." I
>could just as easily say that Chucky told me that he saw RJ at his
>last Austrailian appearance and RJ told Chuck that the darkness that
>surrounded Ishamael all the time was caused by monkeys flying out of
>his ass. It must be true cuz i said RJ said so, right?
You forgot one thing. The monkeys are all wearing sailor suits. Black
sailor suits.
Fuck, it's 1992 again.........
St. Chuck
Colen 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills
up to write:
>| Hmm? If anyone else can match that record, please let me know; I'd
>love
>| to hear of them.
>
>Lanfear: Drilled the bore, best thing anyone could do for the dark
>one.
So why wasn't she automagically Nae'blis'ised when she came out of the
bore?
Also, are you implying that Lanfear is Moridin?
Satsujinki
<dema...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sE3PiMAQ...@whitten.demon.co.uk...
got
| up to write:
|
fuck
| >would the dark one ressurect IShy and make him Naeblis after his
| >massive and utter failures and please do not tell me it was because
of
| >his long history, that is utter bullshit.
|
| cause than Ishamael. Did any of the others:
|
| ...Destroy a flowering civilisation in the Trolloc Wars?
| ...Turn Artur Hawkwing, the greatest king of all time, into a
puppet?
| ...Infiltrate the White Tower?
|
love
| to hear of them.
Lanfear: Drilled the bore, best thing anyone could do for the dark
one.
--
Satsujinki
| So why wasn't she automagically Nae'blis'ised when she came out of
the
| bore?
|
| Also, are you implying that Lanfear is Moridin?
Oh please Colin you are not that stupid to read that into what I said
are you? Moridin is not Ishy. Okay?
Lanfear is not him... well actually since Moridin only uses the TP it
could be a female reincarnated. But I doubt it.
Avatar
> | Hmm? If anyone else can match that record, please let me know; I'd
> love
> | to hear of them.
>
> Lanfear: Drilled the bore, best thing anyone could do for the dark
> one.
>
Accidently drilled the bore. Do you think the DO wants his armies
lead by somebody who occasionally has successes by accident?
Avatar
> It is the description of how it feels to him as he draws it that is
> different to the later times and it is not just because of the
> sickness.
>
The difference is that he is inexperienced and the Saidin
is pure.
Why do you thin he would need the TP and not the OP? What in the
text leads you to believe the TP reverses aging or, ludicrously, can be
"stolen" by nearby channellers? When in the books have we been given
an indication that one channeller can steal another's power just by
standing nearby? Worse yet, you think that one could steal the TP
by just being around? The TP requires explicit permission from the DO..
standing around when its being used could hardly be considered
permission.
If the eye were a concentration of the TP, and there were some
indescriminate source that would just go to the nearest channeller
trying to draw it, you could have an argument. But the truth is, its
a concentration of OP, not TP, as we all know quite well.
> do you remember Aginors
> condition at the time and what the TP was doing? do you also remember
> it was a strong Pulsing line of white heat that Led off into the
> distance, and not to the eye? The power was coming from the dark one.
> It was rejuvenating Aginor, restoring his physical body and health.
And not the eye? How do you know that? We the readers are lead
to believe it lead to the eye, since that is what the forsaken were there
for (and since the PURPOSE of the eye was to aid the dragon reborn
when he needed it).
The pure saidin was rejuvinating Aginor.
> separately.
> | Rand travels all over the place at the end of TEotW, and seems to
> end up
> | in TAR. The pulsing _white_ cord follows him everywhere, connecting
> him
> | with the eye. That's another key way we know its the One Power, not
> the
> | True Power or some dark shielded one power. Ishamael has BLACK
> cords, Rand
> | (when he is drawing from the Eye) has WHITE cords. If it WERE the
> TP,
> | would the cords connecting to Rand not be black also? Why white?
>
> Black cords when they are not being used. White when they are full of
> the True power. Rand is not in TAR at the battle. He is physically
> there everyone can see him and what he does.
>
I said "end up in TAR". The final battle, between Ishy and Rand, does
take place in TAR. Now, when have we seen black cords? Ishy in
TAR, Asmodean skimming, maybe Lanfear, I can't recall. Point is,
we've NEVER seen a forsaken hangin around with white cords,
except when Aginor pulled OP from the eye. The black/white is
a contrast of the bad/good powers (true power or one power with
protection of bonds/the pure saidin in the eye).
The difference between your postulations and the moridin/ishamael
theories is that your's are wild conjecture that directly defies both the
written and spoken word of Robert Jordan, and moridin/ishamael theory
is strongly hinted at in TPoD (there is strong textual evidence, and some
spoken evidence).
> Age of
> | Legends. At that point in the books, they had not figured out Rand
> was
> | the Dragon Reborn. They (the Forsaken, Moiraine, etc.) had figured
> out
> | that ONE of three boys, all the same age and from the Two Rivers,
> was
> | the Dragon Reborn, and therefore LTT, but they didn't know which
> one.
>
> Ishameal already knew,He had sent Aginor to bring Rand to him.
Oh, I think Aginor knew that if he ran into Rand he should collect
him, and he definitly knew better than to horde the Eye for himself,
but being another temptuous forsaken in it entirely for himself, he
tried to grab Rand AND the Eye (and ya wonder why the DO
tortured him with death for a few years when he could've just
brought him back instantly).
It's true that the Good Guys lead the forsaken to the eye, so it's
possible they were "on the track" because Ishy put them there.
However this doesn't really seem to line up with the rest of the
pre-moridin books, because until moridin took over, the forsaken
might've allied with each other but they didn't take orders.
Its more likely that Aginor wanted the eye, but it was impossible
for him to get it without following the good guys there (since the
green man's place automatically moved unless a good guy needed
it badly). So he followed mat's dagger there. He seemed quite
preoccuppied with the Eye when the good guys ran into him (or
them, rather). In fact the text says something like they were "ready
to go right in", as in ignore the good guys.
When I said that they didnt know which of the 3 boys was
the one, I meant before the end. They all figured it out at the
end of the book.
> | Moridin, by the way, knows exactly who Rand and LTT are, and
> | he knows they share the same soul. Moridin seems to have a greater
> | grasp of the situation than most of the other characters in the
> books.
>
> And Aginor seems to show that same grasp.
Can you site any textual evidence as proof? I haven't seen any
evidence
that Aginor knows he's been born over and over with each turn of the
wheel, to battle the dragon reborn.
> |
> | Heh. Ishy threw balefire straight at Rand. Aginor "chased him
> and
> | engaged in a battle of wills" or some such. Which is a better
> description
> | of attempting to obliterate the Fisher piece? Plus, we already know
> | Aginor is Osan'gar, so this whole thread is irrelavent. Aginor
> disobeyed
> | Ishamael, so why would he be made Nae'blis? There are plenty of
> | irrefutable reasons Aginor is not Moridin, such tho that I'll be
> surprised
> |
> | if you can find anybody who will agree with you on this decidedly
> | LOONY theory.
>
> Okay so Aginor disobeyed The dark one once and died. Then why the fuck
> would the dark one ressurect IShy and make him Naeblis after his
> massive and utter failures and please do not tell me it was because of
> his long history, that is utter bullshit.
One huge difference: Ishamael was following orders. Aginor was
ignoring orders. It's not Ishamael's fault the orders failed. The orders
were impossible to complete. Ishamael has been doing the DO's
work for three thousand years without question and without
putting personal gain/motive over the DO's wishes. That's the prime
reason he is Nae'Blis.
> Aside from the fact you are oversimplfying what happened in the
> encounters so as to change the context, and relavence. I have been
> thinking about the three encounters with Rand of Ishy's. Each of those
> encounters had Ishy try to convert Rand, and Then Rand attack Ishy. So
> ishy was acting in self defense. In tear he was trying to do nothing
> more than escape.
You've described the first encounter well, but not the second two.
In TGH, Rand was trying to get by Ishy so he could interfere in the
battle that was raging. Ishy wouldn't let him back. In fact, Ishy STARTED
that fight, sticking his big ol' stick in Rand's way (if I recall
correctly
of course). Rand was the one reacting in self defense, to get by. At
the end of that fight, they both tried to kill each other.
At the end of TDR, Ishamael had given up on converting Rand
to the shadow, and decided it was time to kill him before Rand gained
Callandor. That's why he struck at him with balefire. Now come on,
THINK about it. Nobody has seen Ishamael at that point. If he was
worried about self defense, why did he strike at Rand, getting his
attention? AFTER he had Rand's attention, making Rand a bit pissed,
THEN he fled. Everything at that point was self defense.. but that
"self defense" began with a vicious attack from Ishamael (prompting,
like in TGH, self defense from Rand).
> but Rand would not let him. His encounters are less
> and less like the so coalled encounter that Moridin describes in POD
> the more you look at them and analyze them. But I will say that this
> is from memory, I will have to wait for the chapter readers to get to
> these encounters and see what they say about them.
>
> The Idea of Moridin being Ishy reborn is the loonest most fucked up
> theory there is. There is more supportive evidence that Moridin is
> Eric Cartman than Ishamael.
So what are you going to say when it actually comes out that Moridin
IS Ishamael? Will you say that RJ is a horrible writer and that he didn't
write Moridin correctly? Even though plenty of people think the
evidence is convincing, if not a downright throwaway. In fact, moridin/
ishamael stuff is pretty lightweight compared to the deeper less prominent
threads like who killed Adeleas. There's plenty of material to explore
there, because RJ doesn't hand it to us on a golden plater.
>
> | > Personality wise I see a lot more similarity between Aginior and
> | > Moridin than Moridin and Ishy. Well I see no similarity between
> Ishy
> | > and Moridin. and some similarity between Aginor and Moridin.
> |
> | No similarity? They're both obsessed with the pattern and their
> | place in it. They're both philosophical and metaphorical about the
> | pattern and the Dragon Reborn. They both have violent outbursts
> | of temper. And very convincingly, they seem more concerned about
> | the interests of the shadow than their own personal interests. All
> the
> | other Forsaken, Aginor included, are more concerned with their
> | own personal agendas, such as becoming nae'blis.
>
> Sorry? I see Moridin as being more obsessed with his own current
> position than with the Dark one. And this is more like Aginor.
>
How is he obsessed with his position? Quote me something I
can dispute. He's certainly condensending to the other forsaken,
because they put their petty personal interests before the shadow
(this is similar to how the Forsaken look down on dark friends).
However, Moridin's thoughts seem firmly rooted in forwarding
the shadow's agenda. Whereas the other forsaken spy on each
other and spread disinformation to each other to get a leg up on
being nae'blis, Moridin spies on Graendel and Sammael to make
sure they're not interfering with the DO's orders. That's pretty
different from every other forsaken, Aginor included.
You're going to have to try awfully hard to convince me Moridin
OR Ishamael care more about their own position than with the
agenda of the shadow, since most people consider moridin/ishamael
to be the only forsaken TO put the DO before their own agenda.
> |
> | Well, I thought that it was fairly clear that throughout the end
> of
> | TEotW, Rand was using the same power. If he had drawn on the
> | power at the Eye, and then drawn on some markedly different
> | type of power for a span of time, then had gone back to drawing
> | from the Eye, I'd find this believable, but he seems to draw the
> same
> | hot white power all along. Remember that Aginor and Balthamel
> | were at the Eye FOR the Eye, not for Rand & Company, who they
> | are surprised to encounter. It is the Eye that Aginor draws from,
> | so for it to be TP he's pulling it, that would mean the Eye was a
> | concentration of TP, which makes no sense.
>
> Thats weird if you read Aginors point of view from it he is there to
> take Rand to Baalzamon.
Exactly what line leads you to believe that? I think that's reasonably
debateable. I took Aginor/Balthamel's insistence on going straight to
the eye, rather than straight for Rand, as the REAL reason they were
there.
Avatar
Satsujinki wrote:
> "Avatar" <ava...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:387AD490...@earthlink.net...
> | Halima? Aginor? No... Aginor is Osan'Gar, not Aran'Gar.
> | Your earlier discussions were thought out much better.. I
> | think you need a reread worse than I do.
>
> Actually my earlier discussions were going purely off memory, I
> stumbled upon the similarity between Aginor and Moridin purely by
> accident while I was Reading up on this so called Creator voice. Which
> it turns out is the Dark one.
You've hardly been convincing enough to declare THAT as fact.
One simple fact totally blows away the Dark One theory: Would the
Dark One pledge to not interfere? No. The dark one is the equivalent
of Satan (Shaitan, Satan, big difference huh). The creator is the
equivalent
of god. How does the christian story go? God sends Jesus (Rand in
this case) down to make everything alright. He doesn't interfere
directly. What does Satan do? Satan is always whispering in people's
ear, offering them power and riches if they'll sell their soul. It is
absolutely true without a shadow of a DOUBT that if the DO gets
free, he is going to intervene to the greatest degree he possibly can.
See, the DO would never say "I will not intervene" (to paraphrase).
That's not just unlikely, it's impossible.
> possibility since it just fits the thoughts of Moridin better than
> Ishy's did. The whole encounter reads like the Sharah game encounter.
> None of Ishy's do.
Gawd, talk about revisionist history. The Sharah game was
an introduction to the next two books: First Rand on black square,
offensive. Next book is Rand on white, defensive. This has nothing
at all to do with Eye of the World, TGH, TDR, TSR, TFoH, LoC,
OR CoS.
> So while you observe that this one is less thought out than my
> previous one it says a lot for the argument that this one has recent
> research in it. And your observation is highly inaccurate. What does
> that suggest?
My observation was inaccurate because I don't thinke the DO
talked directly to Rand? It doesn't strike you as strange that all
the other characters have to go to SG to talk to the DO, but the
DO can talk to Rand anywhere? Yeah my observation was
real innaccurate..
In previous arguments, you were raising the same good points
that have been made over and over, and even some original ones
if I'm not mistaken. Now you're disputing evidence that has been
written or spoken by RJ and taken as fact, so it puts everything
in doubt.
Some people call it putting forth a "loony theory", but most
people who do so know better than to take themselves seriously
when 90+% of their arguments are completely unproveable.
See you can't prove that Rand has ever channelled the TP,
but there is textual evidence suggesting that Rand channelled
the Eye, pure Saidin, at the end of TEotW.
So tell me again why Aginor would chase the dagger all
the way to the green man's place, fight Moiraine, then chase
Rand up a hill and engage him BEFORE deciding to "recharge"
with the TP (and get young/energized)?
Why wouldn't he just do this before hand? Because he
needed the EYE to do so. Concentrated One Power. The
next best thing to a sa'angreal, if not better in some ways.
That's what he was using. Otherwise... there's no reason
for him to wait so long to start growing younger.
Avatar
Fenske wrote:
> Avatar wrote:
>
> > No, you still have it backwards. We do NOT know who or where
> > Osan'gar is, other than that he is Aginor. We DO know where Aran'gar
> > is, but this is stated EXPLICITLY in the text, when Halima introduces
> > herself to the BA Aes Sedai.
> >
> > Please tell me you see the difference here. Please tell me you have
> > some idea what's going on.. RJ has not told us "who the gars were
> > pretending to be". We in fact do not know where Osan'gar is, and
> > the books TELL us where Aran'gar is, so why would RJ tell us this?
> > RJ has told us, flat out, who the Gars used to be, in their former
> > life.
>
> You do realize that using "RJ Said So" as proof is considered, by
> those who weren't at the appearance that he supposedly said it,
> worthless, right?
Wrong. RJ is the single most reliable source. Moreso than the books,
because his comments are direct responses to questions and fairly
straightforward. Of course there are exceptions, but there's times
in the books when they're very clear and straightforward also.
Of course, when RJ says that it should be "inherently obvious to
the most casual observer" who killed Asmodean, he doesn't mean
that literally.
> I agree the 'gars are A&B, but only because of what I read in LOC and
> some of thier other appearances. Maybe I'm wrong and that isn't
> enough info and they are someone completly different, but I certainly
> am not going to base my opinion on "So and so said Whathisname was at
> a signing and RJ told him personally that the 'gars were A&B." I
> could just as easily say that Chucky told me that he saw RJ at his
> last Austrailian appearance and RJ told Chuck that the darkness that
> surrounded Ishamael all the time was caused by monkeys flying out of
> his ass. It must be true cuz i said RJ said so, right?
>
The problem with that assumption is that its not just me telling so
and so RJ said such and such. Its multiple people, all going to the same
event, corraborating what RJ is saying. In fact, people make RECORDINGS
of these events, and I have LISTENED to them. Do you really think
RJ would write 3 books thinking of A&B as O&A and then turn
around and change it on a whim? Sure he has "room to move" when
he is writing the books, but when he says something is true, we
have to believe him. After all, I haven't him lie yet (unless it was an
intentional obvious joke).
When RJ considers something obvious enough or a closed matter,
he answers straight out and honestly. When he considers a matter
still unresolved and worth figuring over, he says "Read and find out".
Avatar
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:10:37 GMT, Avatar <ava...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > No, you still have it backwards. We do NOT know who or where
> >Osan'gar is, other than that he is Aginor. We DO know where Aran'gar
> >is, but this is stated EXPLICITLY in the text, when Halima introduces
> >herself to the BA Aes Sedai.
>
> But he said RJ said so. RJ said that Aran'gar is Halima, he also said
> that Osan'gar is Dashiva, he also said that Halima is Balthamel, he
> also said that Dashiva is Aginor, he also said that Moridin is the
> Staypuft Marshmallow Man.
No.. maybe you're being sarcastic, but I dont know you well enough
to say. RJ has never sated that Dashiva is Osan'gar. Sorry.
> > Please tell me you see the difference here. Please tell me you have
> >some idea what's going on..
>
> *spank*
>
> That was unnecessary. Condescension is not nice, now is it? *pats
> Avatar's head* No it's not.
He's stating as fact that which is not only not true, but clearly
disproven
in the text,
>
> >RJ has not told us "who the gars were
> >pretending to be".
>
> He hasn't told me anything at all. Except the stuff in the books,
> which I think is worth more than what he said to a nerd at a signing.
>
> Let's all re-read the books.
>
Haha, more than he said to a nerd. Now who is being condensending?
"Ohhh, sure I read the WoT books, but I'm not one of those NERDS
that's so into those books that I'm going to go to a signing to hear it
straight from the horse's mouth. What do I look like, some sort of freak?".
People listen to RJ because they want to figure out what's going to happen
next, and find out how on-target they are with their current theories, not
because they're living/breathing WoT nerds.
>
> >We in fact do not know where Osan'gar is, and
> >the books TELL us where Aran'gar is, so why would RJ tell us this?
>
> I agree with this percentage of the above post. Not that my agreement
> is necessary or valuable.
>
> >RJ has told us, flat out, who the Gars used to be, in their former
> >life.
>
> No he hasn't.
>
Aginor himself made it explict enough when he was reintroduced as
Osan'gar. In addition to this, RJ has cleared it up in person.
Remember when somebody came back from the Australian signing
and claimed RJ said a TV network (ABC?) has the rights to go ahead
and make a WoT miniseries, and that it might happen? Lots of people
said he was lying, that RJ would never do that.. and guess what? Other
people had gone to the event too, and they backed him up. THEN they
posted MP3s of RJ saying it himself. So.. let me ask you, is it true or not?
Does a tv network have the rights to make a WoT miniseries? Would
it have to be written in Winter's Heart for you to believe it?
Avatar
> That was unnecessary. Condescension is not nice, now is it? *pats
> > Avatar's head* No it's not.
>
> He's stating as fact that which is not only not true, but clearly
> disproven
> in the text,
>
Decided to just not respond to that, but I forgot to clip it out.
It must be getting late..
Satsujinki
| You've hardly been convincing enough to declare THAT as fact.
| One simple fact totally blows away the Dark One theory: Would the
| Dark One pledge to not interfere? No. The dark one is the equivalent
| of Satan (Shaitan, Satan, big difference huh). The creator is the
| equivalent
| of god. How does the christian story go? God sends Jesus (Rand in
| this case) down to make everything alright. He doesn't interfere
| directly. What does Satan do? Satan is always whispering in people's
is
| absolutely true without a shadow of a DOUBT that if the DO gets
| free, he is going to intervene to the greatest degree he possibly
can.
Oh fucking please The creator is not "God," Rand is not the "Son of
God" Rand is the creator. Its just his legend has been warped twisted
and all but forgotten since the last time this age came around. The
Dark One wanted Rand turned to his cause. He said "I will not take
part" because Rand had just wiped out his army and called him out. He
then said the chosen one must do what needs to be done if he will. He
did not say he will not interfere because interfere he did, he sent
Rand back to face the chosen one. Rand wanted it over with there. The
dark one was not ready and wanted to see if Rand could be brought over
and made Nae'blis. So he opened the way for Rand to face Ishamael. And
during this encounter Ishamael drops the fiery eyes and mouth disguise
for a few minutes. As for The part about the Chosen one doing what
must be done if he will. Basically it is up to Ishy to turn Rand, The
DO does not want him Dead yet, but he does not have absolute control
over any of the forsaken, they still have free will and Ishy is
insane, even the Dark one cannot predict exactly what he will do in
the end.
| See, the DO would never say "I will not intervene" (to
paraphrase).
| That's not just unlikely, it's impossible.
It is likely at this point, But then you are misquoting he did not say
"I will not intervene," he said "I will not take part." And why does
this have to refer to an absolute statement. tell me if your friends
ring up and are going out and you say "Nah I am staying home." Do your
friends take this to mean you are never leaving the house again?
|
| > possibility since it just fits the thoughts of Moridin better than
| > Ishy's did. The whole encounter reads like the Sharah game
encounter.
| > None of Ishy's do.
|
|
| Gawd, talk about revisionist history. The Sharah game was
| an introduction to the next two books: First Rand on black square,
| offensive. Next book is Rand on white, defensive. This has nothing
| at all to do with Eye of the World, TGH, TDR, TSR, TFoH, LoC,
| OR CoS.
Oh and before when you were talking about the encounter that Moridin
refers to during the Sharah game this is an encounter Ishy has yet to
have?
| Some people call it putting forth a "loony theory", but most
| people who do so know better than to take themselves seriously
| when 90+% of their arguments are completely unproveable.
Oh fuck and what are you doing with the Ishydin theory? talk about the
Piot calling the Kettle Black.
|
| See you can't prove that Rand has ever channelled the TP,
| but there is textual evidence suggesting that Rand channelled
| the Eye, pure Saidin, at the end of TEotW.
|
| So tell me again why Aginor would chase the dagger all
| the way to the green man's place, fight Moiraine, then chase
| Rand up a hill and engage him BEFORE deciding to "recharge"
| with the TP (and get young/energized)?
|
| Why wouldn't he just do this before hand? Because he
| needed the EYE to do so. Concentrated One Power. The
| next best thing to a sa'angreal, if not better in some ways.
| That's what he was using. Otherwise... there's no reason
| for him to wait so long to start growing younger.
Then why was the Thread vanishing off into the distance and not
leading back to the Eye? Why did none of the other forsaken need the
Concentrated Source of Saidin to rejuvenate?
The vampire Muffin Man
>Lanfear, Drilled, bore, etc...
I wouldn't mind drilling Lanfear's bore... As a matter of fact, I'd quite
enjoy the experience.
Lathu'ul
Satsujinki
| Why do you thin he would need the TP and not the OP? What in the
| text leads you to believe the TP reverses aging or, ludicrously, can
be
| "stolen" by nearby channellers? When in the books have we been given
| an indication that one channeller can steal another's power just by
| standing nearby? Worse yet, you think that one could steal the TP
| by just being around? The TP requires explicit permission from the
DO..
| standing around when its being used could hardly be considered
| permission.
Rand doesn't know what he did, he just reache dout and tugged at the
starnd that was reaching from Aginor and vanished into the distance,
not the nearby Eye.
|
| If the eye were a concentration of the TP, and there were some
| indescriminate source that would just go to the nearest channeller
| trying to draw it, you could have an argument. But the truth is, its
| a concentration of OP, not TP, as we all know quite well.
Do you even understand english? I have never said the EOTW was a
concentration of TP stop making up arguments and putting words into my
mouth.
| The difference between your postulations and the
moridin/ishamael
| theories is that your's are wild conjecture that directly defies
both the
| written and spoken word of Robert Jordan, and moridin/ishamael
theory
| is strongly hinted at in TPoD (there is strong textual evidence, and
some
| spoken evidence).
There is absolutely no evidence unless you want it to be there and
misinterpret the events in the books and Moridins actions to be what
you want them to be.
| Oh, I think Aginor knew that if he ran into Rand he should
collect
| him, and he definitly knew better than to horde the Eye for himself,
| but being another temptuous forsaken in it entirely for himself, he
| tried to grab Rand AND the Eye (and ya wonder why the DO
| tortured him with death for a few years when he could've just
| brought him back instantly).
Actually no Aginor knows he was there to bring Rand to Ishy. When Rand
encounters Ihsy after the Dark one sends him to him. Ishy comments on
how he knew Aginor would fuck up his appointed task.
| Its more likely that Aginor wanted the eye, but it was
impossible
| for him to get it without following the good guys there (since the
| green man's place automatically moved unless a good guy needed
| it badly). So he followed mat's dagger there. He seemed quite
| preoccuppied with the Eye when the good guys ran into him (or
| them, rather). In fact the text says something like they were "ready
| to go right in", as in ignore the good guys.
This is what you think. But it is stated in the book otherwise. Read
the book. I think you have been reading the Rec.arse FAQ too much.
| Can you site any textual evidence as proof? I haven't seen any
| evidence
| that Aginor knows he's been born over and over with each turn of the
| wheel, to battle the dragon reborn.
Page 755 The encounter with Rand on the Hill Aginor knows Rand is the
Dragon reborn but this is what he says.
"Ba'alzamon will give rewards beyond mortal dreaming for the one who
brings you to Shayol ghul. Yet my dreams have always been beyond those
of other men, and I have left mortality behind millenia ago. What
difference if you serve the Great Lord of the Dark alive or dead?
None, to the spread of the Shadow. Why should I share power with you?
Why should I bend knee to you? I, who faced Lews Therin Telamon in the
Hall of Servants itself. I, who threw my might against the Lord of the
Morning and met him stroke for stroke. I think not."
So Aginor knows Rand is the Dragon reborn, Knows he must bring him to
Ishy, know he will be raised Nae'blis when he is turned to the Dark
One's side. But he refers to LTT as some one other than Rand. And
rather than take The "fisher piece" to ishy he decides to eliminate
him instead.
| At the end of TDR, Ishamael had given up on converting Rand
| to the shadow, and decided it was time to kill him before Rand
gained
| Callandor. That's why he struck at him with balefire. Now come on,
| THINK about it. Nobody has seen Ishamael at that point. If he was
| worried about self defense, why did he strike at Rand, getting his
| attention? AFTER he had Rand's attention, making Rand a bit pissed,
| THEN he fled. Everything at that point was self defense.. but that
| "self defense" began with a vicious attack from Ishamael (prompting,
| like in TGH, self defense from Rand).
Actually Ishy struck at rand with Balefire towards the end of the
fight. Rand already had Calandor as he used it to split the Balefire
weave. Ishy had fled into TAR and Rand had pursued him. Ishy was
trying to escape but Rand was relentless. it was in TAR that Ishy used
the balefire. And then I think Ramd impaled Ishy on the white hot
Callandor and then they both shifted back to the waking world.
| So what are you going to say when it actually comes out that
Moridin
| IS Ishamael? Will you say that RJ is a horrible writer and that he
didn't
| write Moridin correctly? Even though plenty of people think the
| evidence is convincing, if not a downright throwaway. In fact,
moridin/
| ishamael stuff is pretty lightweight compared to the deeper less
prominent
I have already stated that I would say that of RJ if he does go that
way.
|
| threads like who killed Adeleas. There's plenty of material to
explore
| there, because RJ doesn't hand it to us on a golden plater.
|
| How is he obsessed with his position? Quote me something I
| can dispute. He's certainly condensending to the other forsaken,
| because they put their petty personal interests before the shadow
| (this is similar to how the Forsaken look down on dark friends).
| However, Moridin's thoughts seem firmly rooted in forwarding
| the shadow's agenda. Whereas the other forsaken spy on each
| other and spread disinformation to each other to get a leg up on
| being nae'blis, Moridin spies on Graendel and Sammael to make
| sure they're not interfering with the DO's orders. That's pretty
| different from every other forsaken, Aginor included.
I quoted something earlier. how about you quote me evidence of his
concern with his place in the pattern?
| Exactly what line leads you to believe that? I think that's
reasonably
| debateable. I took Aginor/Balthamel's insistence on going straight
to
| the eye, rather than straight for Rand, as the REAL reason they were
| there.
Well Rand was at the eye when they got there. So Why would he go
elsewhere when that is Where Rand is. He does not hang around the eye
after having chased everyone off. he goes straight after rand, Rand
knew Aginor would before He ran because he saw the way Aginor was
looking at him.
Satsujinki
| Wrong. RJ is the single most reliable source. Moreso than the
books,
| because his comments are direct responses to questions and fairly
| straightforward. Of course there are exceptions, but there's times
| in the books when they're very clear and straightforward also.
I was at a Book signing by RJ today and I asked him if Ishy was
Moridin he said No Ishy is really a new character I introduced. I
didn't like IShy and didn't want to bring him back.
Chucky and Mr C were there as well they can back me up on this one.
Now is that statement true or false? RJ said it so it must be true.
But I said that Rj said it so is it true? Can you dispute this
statement when you were nowhere near me today? Can I prove it to be
true? The only way you know it is not true is because I say I just
made it up.
RJSS is not absolute proof of Jack shit. Anybody can say Oh I was at a
book signing today and RJ said so.
mister c of nine
out a tooth, picked out an eye, squatted in the corner and spoke the
following stuff:
>
> Wrong. RJ is the single most reliable source.
bullshit.
--
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Coke Truck." - Old CMM Saying.
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<message ends>
St. Chucky the Chunderous
wrote:
>I was at a Book signing by RJ today and I asked him if Ishy was
>Moridin he said No Ishy is really a new character I introduced. I
>didn't like IShy and didn't want to bring him back.
>Chucky and Mr C were there as well they can back me up on this one.
He's right. RJ also said that he - not the books - was the most
reliable source of information about WoT.
Colen 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills
up to write:
>"Colen 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills"
><dema...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:XOOhwKA0...@whitten.demon.co.uk...
>| So why wasn't she automagically Nae'blis'ised when she came out of
>the
>| bore?
>|
>| Also, are you implying that Lanfear is Moridin?
>
>Oh please Colin you are not that stupid to read that into what I said
>are you?
I was just wondering, it's the sort of daft thing you would come out
with.
>Moridin is not Ishy. Okay?
I disagree, for the reasons stated in my previous post.
>Lanfear is not him... well actually since Moridin only uses the TP it
>could be a female reincarnated. But I doubt it.
Exactly my point. It *could* be her, but it's unlikely.
Whatever the right answer is, there are going to be a *lot* of red faces
in this group when RJ reveals it. :)
St. Chucky the Chunderous
> Accidently drilled the bore. Do you think the DO wants his armies
>lead by somebody who occasionally has successes by accident?
Please quote that it was an accident. Please.
St. Chuck
I'm not saying you can't, but I'd love to see it.
St. Chucky the Chunderous
>> *spank*
>>
>> That was unnecessary. Condescension is not nice, now is it? *pats
>> Avatar's head* No it's not.
NOTE: This is condescension.
> He's stating as fact that which is not only not true, but clearly
>disproven
>in the text,
Right. That's not allowed, is it?
> Haha, more than he said to a nerd. Now who is being condensending?
That's not condescending. If I said, "No, you're not a nerd."
THAT would be condescending.
Kay?
>"Ohhh, sure I read the WoT books, but I'm not one of those NERDS
>that's so into those books that I'm going to go to a signing to hear it
>straight from the horse's mouth. What do I look like, some sort of freak?".
Yeah, this is a valid point.
>People listen to RJ because they want to figure out what's going to happen
>next, and find out how on-target they are with their current theories, not
>because they're living/breathing WoT nerds.
Right.
> Aginor himself made it explict enough when he was reintroduced as
>Osan'gar. In addition to this, RJ has cleared it up in person.
To whom? I wasn't there! All calls about RJ saying it are to be
stricken from the record. He could easily chane his mind and write
different shit in the books.
Question - when we get to the end of the series, and 'x' has not been
resolved, will you saying RJ said 'x' meant 'abc' mean more or be more
valid than me saying 'x' in fact meant 'cba'?
> Remember when somebody came back from the Australian signing
>and claimed RJ said a TV network (ABC?) has the rights to go ahead
>and make a WoT miniseries, and that it might happen? Lots of people
>said he was lying, that RJ would never do that.. and guess what? Other
>people had gone to the event too, and they backed him up. THEN they
>posted MP3s of RJ saying it himself. So.. let me ask you, is it true or not?
Get me an MP3 of RJ saying shit. Then you can use it in an argument.
As long as you can prove it isn't a fake.
>Does a tv network have the rights to make a WoT miniseries? Would
>it have to be written in Winter's Heart for you to believe it?
Does that have ANYTHING to do with the books?
If RJ said Moridin was going to die by a hammer to the head, I would
have to read it in Winter's Heart (or later books) to believe it, no
matter what he said at any signing. He could change his mind.
St. Chuck
St. Chucky the Chunderous
>Avatar wrote:
>> That was unnecessary. Condescension is not nice, now is it? *pats
>> > Avatar's head* No it's not.
>>
>> He's stating as fact that which is not only not true, but clearly
>> disproven
>> in the text,
>>
>
> Decided to just not respond to that, but I forgot to clip it out.
>It must be getting late..
*shrug*
I was being condescending. There's no need to be an asshole. If
someone's wrong and you can prove it, then do it. No need to tell them
they don't know what they're talking about. That's not nice.
Stargen
he also said that Moridin is the Staypuft Marshmallow Man.
So balefire is really the proton pack rays, and that's why when the two
flows of balefire crossed in Shadar Logoth it was bad. The bore is the top
of the building and the DO is that destroyer chick. Gozar or something.
Yeah and the gar's are the gatekeeper and the keymaster, the dog thingies.
ok i'm stopping.
Stargen
(snip lots of stuff)
Zap Brannigan
"St. Chucky the Chunderous" wrote:
>
> I was being condescending. There's no need to be an asshole. If
> someone's wrong and you can prove it, then do it. No need to tell them
> they don't know what they're talking about. That's not nice.
And everyone knows we are all very nice around here.
Zap
Colen 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills
<grrro...@aol.comXGrrrrrX> got up to write:
>"Satsujinki"
>>Lanfear, Drilled, bore, etc...
>
>I wouldn't mind drilling Lanfear's bore...
I think this should go into the quotes file, Mr C...
Avatar
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:54:49 GMT, Avatar <ava...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Aginor himself made it explict enough when he was reintroduced as
> >Osan'gar. In addition to this, RJ has cleared it up in person.
>
> To whom? I wasn't there! All calls about RJ saying it are to be
> stricken from the record. He could easily chane his mind and write
> different shit in the books.
To my knowledge he hasn't done so.. Here's where I think you're a little
confused.. RJ isn't telling people what's going to HAPPEN in the future,
to those questions he says "read and find out". However he WILL clear
up matters that are set in stone. For example when he tells us who Osan'gar
and Aran'gar used to be, he is doing so because we are far along that it
is impossible for him to go back and retroactively change their identities.
For him to swap identities around NOW would imply that he hadn't
worked out much of anything before hand, which would be the sign of
a poor writer. I mean you can't really write a character like Moridin
for a couple books and THEN decide who he really is. If you're a good
writer, you decide who the heck your characters are before you write
about them. Sure characters DEVELOP, but they shouldn't change
identity completely on a whim.
> Question - when we get to the end of the series, and 'x' has not been
> resolved, will you saying RJ said 'x' meant 'abc' mean more or be more
> valid than me saying 'x' in fact meant 'cba'?
>
Probably. Peronally I've always taken authors intentions seriously.
We could both go see a movie and get different experiences from it,
which is valid, but if I was really into the movie I'd go read the book
(if there was one) or research the subject so I could get a greater
sense of what the director or writer intended when they created it.
You can get a much understanding of a work, any work, if you
know the creator's background, interests, education, and particular
their intention with that particular work. This is related to the question
of, what is the importance of the art process? An abstract artist may
draw a very detailed picture of a tree, then go back and work out
vertical and horizontal relations between individual branches, creating
painting after painting of simplified structure, until he arrives at a simplistic
work consistenting entirely of vertical and horizontal fields. Does this
work have more inherent value than one without all the predevelopment?
Many believe that artistic process is irrelavent: Only the final product
counts. On the other hand, I tend to think that the design process is just
as, if not more important than the final product.
I come come up with infinite analogies: Some people just listen to a
cd a few times, appreciate it, then on to the next group. Others read
interviews about the group from the period, or listen to earlier live
versions of the studio albums to gain a greater understanding of how
the studio album came to be.
I soak up every WoT related word that I can get out of RJ, because
it makes the entire experience of reading the books (especially as they're
being written) more meaningful. It also promotes very interesting
discussion, which wouldn't exist in the vacuum you'll have after all is
said and done and decided. On the other hand, RJ has stated (hah!) that
he's going to leave a minor cliffhanger in the ending, just to drive people
like me nuts.
Does that answer your question?
>
> > Remember when somebody came back from the Australian signing
> >and claimed RJ said a TV network (ABC?) has the rights to go ahead
> >and make a WoT miniseries, and that it might happen? Lots of people
> >said he was lying, that RJ would never do that.. and guess what? Other
> >people had gone to the event too, and they backed him up. THEN they
> >posted MP3s of RJ saying it himself. So.. let me ask you, is it true or not?
>
> Get me an MP3 of RJ saying shit. Then you can use it in an argument.
> As long as you can prove it isn't a fake.
>
I'm not much of a purveyor of MP3s, the only one I have is of him
talking about the miniseries.
> >Does a tv network have the rights to make a WoT miniseries? Would
> >it have to be written in Winter's Heart for you to believe it?
>
> Does that have ANYTHING to do with the books?
My point was, does RJ's word mean anything to you. Apparently not.
> If RJ said Moridin was going to die by a hammer to the head, I would
> have to read it in Winter's Heart (or later books) to believe it, no
> matter what he said at any signing. He could change his mind.
Well.. if RJ started to make comments which later proved to be
falsehoods, I'd probably take them a lot less seriously. It seems he
hasn't been intentionally missleading us so far though, so I'm willing
to take what he says as honest.
Avatar
Satsujinki wrote:
> "Avatar" <ava...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:387D4A94...@earthlink.net...
>
> | Wrong. RJ is the single most reliable source. Moreso than the
> books,
> | because his comments are direct responses to questions and fairly
> | straightforward. Of course there are exceptions, but there's times
> | in the books when they're very clear and straightforward also.
>
> I was at a Book signing by RJ today and I asked him if Ishy was
> Moridin he said No Ishy is really a new character I introduced. I
> didn't like IShy and didn't want to bring him back.
> Chucky and Mr C were there as well they can back me up on this one.
>
> Now is that statement true or false? RJ said it so it must be true.
> But I said that Rj said it so is it true? Can you dispute this
> statement when you were nowhere near me today? Can I prove it to be
> true? The only way you know it is not true is because I say I just
> made it up.
> RJSS is not absolute proof of Jack shit. Anybody can say Oh I was at a
> book signing today and RJ said so.
Of course I can dispute it. You tell me which signing it was, where,
I check it against a signing schedule and ask other people to state
whether or not he said that.
Do you really think people would LIE about what RJ said, to support
some point? Sometimes people missinterpret what RJ said, because
with all the people there sometimes you don't hear everything he says..
which is why you have to get multiple people saying what they heard.
Once you get it from 2 or 3 people, especially the ones that take notes
or bring a tape recorder, you get a very reliable understanding of what
happened.
Avatar
> Rand doesn't know what he did, he just reache dout and tugged at the
> starnd that was reaching from Aginor and vanished into the distance,
> not the nearby Eye.
Yes, he tugged at the source of power that was going from the Eye
to Aginor, pulling the power to himself.
> | If the eye were a concentration of the TP, and there were some
> | indescriminate source that would just go to the nearest channeller
> | trying to draw it, you could have an argument. But the truth is, its
> | a concentration of OP, not TP, as we all know quite well.
>
> Do you even understand english? I have never said the EOTW was a
> concentration of TP stop making up arguments and putting words into my
> mouth.
>
But you see, that's the only way your argument works. If Aginor
was drawing the TP, he could've drawn it whenever he wanted.
Why wait?
> Actually no Aginor knows he was there to bring Rand to Ishy. When Rand
> encounters Ihsy after the Dark one sends him to him. Ishy comments on
> how he knew Aginor would fuck up his appointed task.
>
Yes, he says something "which sounded like a curse for Aginor" to
paraphrase, but that doesn't explain why Aginor was in more a hurry
to get the eye than he was to get Rand.
> So Aginor knows Rand is the Dragon reborn, Knows he must bring him to
> Ishy, know he will be raised Nae'blis when he is turned to the Dark
> One's side. But he refers to LTT as some one other than Rand. And
> rather than take The "fisher piece" to ishy he decides to eliminate
> him instead.
This passage seems to reflect a distinct lack of understanding of
the pattern. He says "Why should I bend knee to you? I, who faced
Lews Therin Telamon..". Does that sound like he understands that
Rand IS LTT? He may know that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, but
he doesn't seem to understand that this means Rand IS LTT.
> Actually Ishy struck at rand with Balefire towards the end of the
> fight. Rand already had Calandor as he used it to split the Balefire
> weave. Ishy had fled into TAR and Rand had pursued him. Ishy was
> trying to escape but Rand was relentless. it was in TAR that Ishy used
> the balefire. And then I think Ramd impaled Ishy on the white hot
> Callandor and then they both shifted back to the waking world.
>
Ishy struck at Rand with SOMETHING when Rand was
jumping for Callandor. He made the first move. He didn't have
to come in the first place, or he could've just left during the fight
with Bel'al.
> | How is he obsessed with his position? Quote me something I
> | can dispute. He's certainly condensending to the other forsaken,
> | because they put their petty personal interests before the shadow
> | (this is similar to how the Forsaken look down on dark friends).
> | However, Moridin's thoughts seem firmly rooted in forwarding
> | the shadow's agenda. Whereas the other forsaken spy on each
> | other and spread disinformation to each other to get a leg up on
> | being nae'blis, Moridin spies on Graendel and Sammael to make
> | sure they're not interfering with the DO's orders. That's pretty
> | different from every other forsaken, Aginor included.
>
> I quoted something earlier. how about you quote me evidence of his
> concern with his place in the pattern?
I do wish I had the books with me.. I need to reread them. As
for Ishy's concern with his place in the pattern, there's the prologue
to Eye of the World where he says that Lews Therin can't escape
him with death (showing an understanding of how the pattern spins
out souls over and over). Most of Ishamael's ramblings towards
Rand, Perrin, and Mat are laced with similar thoughts, but I can't
do much better than that without the source at hand.
Who do you think killed Fel? Why?
> | Exactly what line leads you to believe that? I think that's
> reasonably
> | debateable. I took Aginor/Balthamel's insistence on going straight
> to
> | the eye, rather than straight for Rand, as the REAL reason they were
> | there.
>
> Well Rand was at the eye when they got there. So Why would he go
> elsewhere when that is Where Rand is. He does not hang around the eye
> after having chased everyone off. he goes straight after rand, Rand
> knew Aginor would before He ran because he saw the way Aginor was
> looking at him.
Well, he does chase after Rand, when he realizes who he has come
upon.. then he starts drawing from the Eye instead of taking Rand on
home to SG.
Avatar
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 02:22:44 GMT, Avatar <ava...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Accidently drilled the bore. Do you think the DO wants his armies
> >lead by somebody who occasionally has successes by accident?
>
> Please quote that it was an accident. Please.
>
> St. Chuck
>
> I'm not saying you can't, but I'd love to see it.
>
She was drilling into what she thought was a source of power
that both of the sexes could use without the limitations inherent
in having 2 different powers. This is in TSR and the Guide too,
if I'm not mistaken.
She was not, on the other hand, consciously drilling through
the DO's prison in the hopes of creating a bore to free him.
Avatar
> "Avatar" <ava...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:387D485D...@earthlink.net...
> | You've hardly been convincing enough to declare THAT as fact.
> | One simple fact totally blows away the Dark One theory: Would the
> | Dark One pledge to not interfere? No. The dark one is the equivalent
> | of Satan (Shaitan, Satan, big difference huh). The creator is the
> | equivalent
> | of god. How does the christian story go? God sends Jesus (Rand in
> | this case) down to make everything alright. He doesn't interfere
> | directly. What does Satan do? Satan is always whispering in people's
> | ear, offering them power and riches if they'll sell their soul. It
> is
> | absolutely true without a shadow of a DOUBT that if the DO gets
> | free, he is going to intervene to the greatest degree he possibly
> can.
>
> Oh fucking please The creator is not "God," Rand is not the "Son of
> God" Rand is the creator. Its just his legend has been warped twisted
> and all but forgotten since the last time this age came around.
Heh, whatever you say.
> | See, the DO would never say "I will not intervene" (to
> paraphrase).
> | That's not just unlikely, it's impossible.
>
> It is likely at this point, But then you are misquoting he did not say
> "I will not intervene," he said "I will not take part." And why does
> this have to refer to an absolute statement. tell me if your friends
> ring up and are going out and you say "Nah I am staying home." Do your
> friends take this to mean you are never leaving the house again?
>
It makes more thematic sense if its the Creator speaking.
For it to be the DO takes too much
>
> |
> | > possibility since it just fits the thoughts of Moridin better than
> | > Ishy's did. The whole encounter reads like the Sharah game
> encounter.
> | > None of Ishy's do.
> |
> |
> | Gawd, talk about revisionist history. The Sharah game was
> | an introduction to the next two books: First Rand on black square,
> | offensive. Next book is Rand on white, defensive. This has nothing
> | at all to do with Eye of the World, TGH, TDR, TSR, TFoH, LoC,
> | OR CoS.
>
> Oh and before when you were talking about the encounter that Moridin
> refers to during the Sharah game this is an encounter Ishy has yet to
> have?
I must've missread you. I thought you meant that the point of the
Sharah game was to reference this earlier scene. I didn't realize
you meant just that particular aspect, which DOES refer to
Moridin's past.
> | Some people call it putting forth a "loony theory", but most
> | people who do so know better than to take themselves seriously
> | when 90+% of their arguments are completely unproveable.
>
> Oh fuck and what are you doing with the Ishydin theory? talk about the
> Piot calling the Kettle Black.
There's nothing loony about the ishydin theory. It's all
rather obvious.
> | Why wouldn't he just do this before hand? Because he
> | needed the EYE to do so. Concentrated One Power. The
> | next best thing to a sa'angreal, if not better in some ways.
> | That's what he was using. Otherwise... there's no reason
> | for him to wait so long to start growing younger.
>
> Then why was the Thread vanishing off into the distance and not
> leading back to the Eye?
Did the text say "vanishing off into the distance, away from
the eye"? I can't really argue things this specific without the
text in my hand.
> Why did none of the other forsaken need the
> Concentrated Source of Saidin to rejuvenate?
None of the other Forsaken, aside from those 2, were at the
edge of the bore, so they weren't aged.
Satsujinki
| Satsujinki wrote:
|
| > Rand doesn't know what he did, he just reache dout and tugged at
the
| > starnd that was reaching from Aginor and vanished into the
distance,
|
| > not the nearby Eye.
|
| to Aginor, pulling the power to himself.
Actually I was wrong I did a reread, He did not tug it, a strand
peeled of and touched him, filling him with a heat that did not burn
but should have. Now considering that The DO probably knows he Needs
Rand alive to fulfill his own dark prophecy and be freed. Maybe he
decided to Give Rand a chance against Aginors Double cross.
| But you see, that's the only way your argument works. If Aginor
| was drawing the TP, he could've drawn it whenever he wanted.
| Why wait?
There is no evidence he was drawing from the Eye. And he did not wait.
Rand and the others were staring at the eye, then aginor came out said
that Mat had led them there, but he was not the one they were after.
Then he goes on to say this.
"...I an Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the wheel, But soon
the Great lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh, and
the world will be ours once more.
You will have no Lews Therin Kinslayer, This time. No Lord of ther
Morning to save you. We know the one we seek now and there is no more
need for the rest of you."
They were never there for the EOTW. they were always there for Rand.
Point Set and Match.
|
| > Actually no Aginor knows he was there to bring Rand to Ishy. When
Rand
| > encounters Ihsy after the Dark one sends him to him. Ishy comments
on
| > how he knew Aginor would fuck up his appointed task.
| >
|
| Yes, he says something "which sounded like a curse for Aginor"
to
| paraphrase, but that doesn't explain why Aginor was in more a hurry
| to get the eye than he was to get Rand.
He was never in a hurry to get to the eye, he was in fact calm in his
pursuit of Rand because he was over confident. He never actually got
to the eye itself.
|
| > So Aginor knows Rand is the Dragon reborn, Knows he must bring him
to
| > Ishy, know he will be raised Nae'blis when he is turned to the
Dark
| > One's side. But he refers to LTT as some one other than Rand. And
| > rather than take The "fisher piece" to ishy he decides to
eliminate
| > him instead.
|
| This passage seems to reflect a distinct lack of understanding
of
| the pattern. He says "Why should I bend knee to you? I, who faced
| Lews Therin Telamon..". Does that sound like he understands that
| Rand IS LTT? He may know that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, but
| he doesn't seem to understand that this means Rand IS LTT.
Yes he does understand, but he does not see a person being reborn as
being that person in name and ability as well. Just the same soul
within. This is the same way Moridin seems to see it.
| I do wish I had the books with me.. I need to reread them. As
| for Ishy's concern with his place in the pattern, there's the
prologue
| to Eye of the World where he says that Lews Therin can't escape
| him with death (showing an understanding of how the pattern spins
| out souls over and over). Most of Ishamael's ramblings towards
| Rand, Perrin, and Mat are laced with similar thoughts, but I can't
| do much better than that without the source at hand.
|
| Who do you think killed Fel? Why?
I have no idea who Killed Fel, whoever it was was the one who controls
the Gholam, and I have no idea who Killed Assie.
|
| > | Exactly what line leads you to believe that? I think that's
| > reasonably
| > | debateable. I took Aginor/Balthamel's insistence on going
straight
| > to
| > | the eye, rather than straight for Rand, as the REAL reason they
were
| > | there.
| >
| > Well Rand was at the eye when they got there. So Why would he go
| > elsewhere when that is Where Rand is. He does not hang around the
eye
| > after having chased everyone off. he goes straight after rand,
Rand
| > knew Aginor would before He ran because he saw the way Aginor was
| > looking at him.
|
| Well, he does chase after Rand, when he realizes who he has come
| upon.. then he starts drawing from the Eye instead of taking Rand on
| home to SG.
He knew what he had come upon before he got there. Rand was the reason
he was there nothing else.
Satsujinki
| Do you really think people would LIE about what RJ said, to
support
| some point? Sometimes people missinterpret what RJ said, because
| with all the people there sometimes you don't hear everything he
says..
| which is why you have to get multiple people saying what they heard.
| Once you get it from 2 or 3 people, especially the ones that take
notes
| or bring a tape recorder, you get a very reliable understanding of
what
| happened.
I thought I was Naive. This is the real world, this is the web, people
lie about what sex age and race they are. People lie about everything
they think they can get away with and take risks on shit they hope
they can get away with. This would not be the first nor the last time
several people have conspired to deceive.
The only word you can trust is that as printed in the books.
Satsujinki
| Satsujinki wrote:
| > | See, the DO would never say "I will not intervene" (to
| > paraphrase).
| > | That's not just unlikely, it's impossible.
| >
| > It is likely at this point, But then you are misquoting he did not
say
| > "I will not intervene," he said "I will not take part." And why
does
| > this have to refer to an absolute statement. tell me if your
friends
| > ring up and are going out and you say "Nah I am staying home." Do
your
| > friends take this to mean you are never leaving the house again?
| >
|
| It makes more thematic sense if its the Creator speaking.
| For it to be the DO takes too much
Actually it doesn't. It makes more sense that it is the Dark one. As
Rand just called him out. It also falls into place and makes sense as
to what is going on and what will happen later that it is the voice of
the Dark one.
Avatar
Satsujinki wrote:
> "Avatar" <ava...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
I suppose I was just used to the more adult understanding
that exists in that particular news group. If anybody purposely
practiced deciet there, they'd be ostracized.
Yes I've run into all sorts of wackos on the net, but that
wasn't during serious discussions of novels. When you read
a news group long enough you start to know the other people,
and eventually to trust what they're saying. You can tell if they're
lying or not, if you're bright.
Avatar
> Actually I was wrong I did a reread, He did not tug it, a strand
> peeled of and touched him, filling him with a heat that did not burn
> but should have. Now considering that The DO probably knows he Needs
> Rand alive to fulfill his own dark prophecy and be freed. Maybe he
> decided to Give Rand a chance against Aginors Double cross.
I'd be interested in seeing the results of a poll on this. I still
don't
believe it for a second, but you seemed to have worked it out
pretty well.
You should take some of your posts from this thread and write
a sort of proof on "Why I think Rand and Aginor were fighting
over the TP". I'd be interested to see people with better or more
recent memories than my own debate it.
>
> | But you see, that's the only way your argument works. If Aginor
> | was drawing the TP, he could've drawn it whenever he wanted.
> | Why wait?
>
> There is no evidence he was drawing from the Eye. And he did not wait.
> Rand and the others were staring at the eye, then aginor came out said
> that Mat had led them there, but he was not the one they were after.
> Then he goes on to say this.
> "...I an Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the wheel, But soon
> the Great lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh, and
> the world will be ours once more.
> You will have no Lews Therin Kinslayer, This time. No Lord of ther
> Morning to save you. We know the one we seek now and there is no more
> need for the rest of you."
>
> They were never there for the EOTW. they were always there for Rand.
> Point Set and Match.
Well.. last I read that book was the summer of 98. There was a
few lines that implied they were in a hurry to reach the eye, but without
the text handy I won't be able to give you them. For whatever reason,
they rested more heavily in my mind than the ones you mention.
I let a friend of mine borrow TEotW, but he said he didn't like it,
so I may be able to get it back pretty soon.
> He was never in a hurry to get to the eye, he was in fact calm in his
> pursuit of Rand because he was over confident. He never actually got
> to the eye itself.
There's a line that says something like "they looked like they were
ready to walk right in". You can look for that if you like.
>
> |
> | > So Aginor knows Rand is the Dragon reborn, Knows he must bring him
> to
> | > Ishy, know he will be raised Nae'blis when he is turned to the
> Dark
> | > One's side. But he refers to LTT as some one other than Rand. And
> | > rather than take The "fisher piece" to ishy he decides to
> eliminate
> | > him instead.
> |
> | This passage seems to reflect a distinct lack of understanding
> of
> | the pattern. He says "Why should I bend knee to you? I, who faced
> | Lews Therin Telamon..". Does that sound like he understands that
> | Rand IS LTT? He may know that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, but
> | he doesn't seem to understand that this means Rand IS LTT.
>
> Yes he does understand, but he does not see a person being reborn as
> being that person in name and ability as well. Just the same soul
> within. This is the same way Moridin seems to see it.
There's plenty of evidence for Rand being LTT, such as Hawkwing
recognizing him as LTT. When Moridin cites Rand, he is citing LTT's
current incarnation, but he knows its the same person. Aginor, from
the text you've cited, does not seem to realize he is facing LTT.
Contrast that with, say, Bel'al's understanding that Rand was really
LTT, or Lanfear (I think) saying that "Ishy said.. (that Rand really
was LTT), but he had lied when it suited him".
>
> | I do wish I had the books with me.. I need to reread them. As
> | for Ishy's concern with his place in the pattern, there's the
> prologue
> | to Eye of the World where he says that Lews Therin can't escape
> | him with death (showing an understanding of how the pattern spins
> | out souls over and over). Most of Ishamael's ramblings towards
> | Rand, Perrin, and Mat are laced with similar thoughts, but I can't
> | do much better than that without the source at hand.
> |
> | Who do you think killed Fel? Why?
>
> I have no idea who Killed Fel, whoever it was was the one who controls
> the Gholam, and I have no idea who Killed Assie.
Well, I would say there's 2 Gholam's running around, and that the
one who killed Fel belonged to Ishamael. A painful pat on the back
from one philosopher to another.
Satsujinki
| Satsujinki wrote:
| Well.. last I read that book was the summer of 98. There was a
| few lines that implied they were in a hurry to reach the eye, but
without
| the text handy I won't be able to give you them. For whatever
reason,
| they rested more heavily in my mind than the ones you mention.
| I let a friend of mine borrow TEotW, but he said he didn't like it,
| so I may be able to get it back pretty soon.
Last time I read it before some one emntioned the voice was 94 or 95.
And then I was just skimming over it looking for the voice, You mad
eme go back and search the whole chapter though.
|
| > He was never in a hurry to get to the eye, he was in fact calm in
his
| > pursuit of Rand because he was over confident. He never actually
got
| > to the eye itself.
|
| There's a line that says something like "they looked like they
were
| ready to walk right in". You can look for that if you like.
Only Balthamel had that look on his face. But neither of them ever
enter. Maybe it was the seal that he was eager to get to? he wanted a
new body, and the Dark one being free would achieve this. But as
neityher of them made it into the Eye. We will only have Conjecture
and Theory about what it was that drew his attention there.
| > Yes he does understand, but he does not see a person being reborn
as
| > being that person in name and ability as well. Just the same soul
| > within. This is the same way Moridin seems to see it.
|
| There's plenty of evidence for Rand being LTT, such as Hawkwing
| recognizing him as LTT. When Moridin cites Rand, he is citing LTT's
| current incarnation, but he knows its the same person. Aginor, from
| the text you've cited, does not seem to realize he is facing LTT.
| Contrast that with, say, Bel'al's understanding that Rand was really
| LTT, or Lanfear (I think) saying that "Ishy said.. (that Rand really
| was LTT), but he had lied when it suited him".
What I understand from this is that Aginor Knows Rand is the Dragon
reborn. he knows that if he is turned to the DO he will be raised
Nae'blis etc. But Aginor and none of the forsaken know what we know in
that Rand has LTT's voice in his head later. The whell turns and
people are reborn but people do not have their old memories, or
training readily available. he sees before him an untrained Dragon,
one who will be as powerful or more powerful than LTT. he knows who he
faces but he figures he can despatch him before he comes into his own.
That is what I understand from the passage.
What I am saying is that Aginor and Moridin are the only two that
treat Rand as Rand while knowing he is the dragon reborn. All the
other forsaken treat him as Lews Therin, Ignoring that he is not the
same person, just the same soul. Aginor and Moridin are the only two
who seem to see the young man that is Rand, he others see their old
enemy LTT.
St. Chucky the Chunderous
wrote:
Don't make me come over there......!
St. Chucky the Chunderous
>(snip)
>
>he also said that Moridin is the Staypuft Marshmallow Man.
>
>
>So balefire is really the proton pack rays, and that's why when the two
>flows of balefire crossed in Shadar Logoth it was bad. The bore is the top
>of the building and the DO is that destroyer chick. Gozar or something.
>Yeah and the gar's are the gatekeeper and the keymaster, the dog thingies.
And Bela is the Ectomobile.
St. Chucky the Chunderous
wrote:
>I thought I was Naive. This is the real world, this is the web, people
>lie about what sex age and race they are. People lie about everything
>they think they can get away with and take risks on shit they hope
>they can get away with. This would not be the first nor the last time
>several people have conspired to deceive.
>The only word you can trust is that as printed in the books.
No need to name-call.
You're both missing an important point or two here - yes, one person
can say "RJ said this at a signing." and the other person can check
it. The thing is, when he comes back and says, "I asked around and
apparently RJ didn't say that at all," then the original RJSSer can
say, "Well fuck them, they're lying. I was there, you weren't."
Conversely:
One person can say, "RJ said this at a signing." and the other person
can check up on it and find that yes, it was said at a signing. Later,
the book comes out, and it seems that *gasp*.....
RJ himself was either lying, misguiding for the plot's sake,
attempting to answer a question he had not decided on the answer to
yet.....or, of course, he could have just been flat-out wrong!
He can change his mind, you know.
Oh, and how does this fit into the argument - say you sent an Email or
piece of fan mail to him, and he sent a reply? Or if you know the guy,
and talk about the way the story's going?
St. Chucky the Chunderous
> I suppose I was just used to the more adult understanding
>that exists in that particular news group. If anybody purposely
>practiced deciet there, they'd be ostracized.
Yeah. They're fuck heads. Your point being?
> Yes I've run into all sorts of wackos on the net, but that
>wasn't during serious discussions of novels. When you read
>a news group long enough you start to know the other people,
>and eventually to trust what they're saying. You can tell if they're
>lying or not, if you're bright.
Ah. But the same people killfile you and call you a troll if you lie
to them. Very logical. They're not fuck heads at all.
Oh wait, yes they are.
Please try to understand that we generally do not like that group, and
anyone who supports them (on the rather dubious ground that they are
more mature, implying that maturity = superiority, as if nobody has
heard of Kid Wisdom) generally gets the pooey end of any sticks we
pass round when we play Pass The Sticks.
St. Chuck
We Are Not At Home To Rec.artists.
St. Chucky the Chunderous
decided he wanted to make St. Chuck type his fingers to the bone (hur
hur hur hur hur, I said 'bone'), so he wrote:
>"St. Chucky the Chunderous" wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:54:49 GMT, Avatar <ava...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > Aginor himself made it explict enough when he was reintroduced as
>> >Osan'gar. In addition to this, RJ has cleared it up in person.
>>
>> To whom? I wasn't there! All calls about RJ saying it are to be
>> stricken from the record. He could easily chane his mind and write
>> different shit in the books.
Uh, change his mind. If he chaned his mind, we might all be in for a
long wait.
> To my knowledge he hasn't done so.. Here's where I think you're a little
>confused.. RJ isn't telling people what's going to HAPPEN in the future,
>to those questions he says "read and find out". However he WILL clear
>up matters that are set in stone. For example when he tells us who Osan'gar
>and Aran'gar used to be, he is doing so because we are far along that it
>is impossible for him to go back and retroactively change their identities.
Bzzzzt. You said impossible. I'm striking that from the record too.
Anyway, RJ never said who Osan'gar and Aran'gar used to be.
> For him to swap identities around NOW would imply that he hadn't
>worked out much of anything before hand, which would be the sign of
>a poor writer.
Or a genius. Who are you to judge?
>I mean you can't really write a character like Moridin
>for a couple books and THEN decide who he really is.
You say 'a character like Moridin' as if he was already fully
developed, even after two books. Which equals, um, how many pages of
just Moridin? A hundred or less? Are you a writer?
>If you're a good
>writer, you decide who the heck your characters are before you write
>about them.
Ah, I see.
>Sure characters DEVELOP, but they shouldn't change
>identity completely on a whim.
Stop. You're killing me.
C, you gotta listen to this guy.
>> Question - when we get to the end of the series, and 'x' has not been
>> resolved, will you saying RJ said 'x' meant 'abc' mean more or be more
>> valid than me saying 'x' in fact meant 'cba'?
>
> Probably.
*snort*
>An abstract artist may
>draw a very detailed picture of a tree, then go back and work out
>vertical and horizontal relations between individual branches, creating
>painting after painting of simplified structure, until he arrives at a simplistic
>
>work consistenting entirely of vertical and horizontal fields. Does this
>work have more inherent value than one without all the predevelopment?
Um, by your definition, the simplistic work IS the work with all the
predevelopment. Can you please be more specific? If you're asking me
which is the more worthwhile, the final piece which is abstract, or
the original draft which is finely detailed, I couldn't tell you.
Because you didn't ask to whom the inherent value was meant to be. So:
The Artist: To the artist, as an abstract artist, the abstract piece
would have the greater value, but it is ambiguous. He/she put more
work into the final piece, and the rest of the drafts were just so
he/she could arrive at the final piece. If the first draft had had the
greater value, he/she would have stopped there. However, I consider
the drafts to be part of the original piece, as I suspect the artist
would too.
The Potential Audience: To these people, as fans of abstract art and
admirers of the simplicity such a painting would involve, the final
piece would again be of more inherent value. Except in this case, the
original draft is of no value whatsoever, because a) They never see
it, and b) If they were fans of detailed, realistic illustrations,
they wouldn't be at an abstract art exhibit.
The Buyer: Wants to buy a piece of abstract art, not a drawing of a
fucking tree.
Me: I think it's a stupid analogy.
It has nothing to do with the fact that, at the end of the Wheel of
Time series, there will probably be a number of threads of the story
that are left unfulfilled, and the people who have read the series can
decide how those threads resolve themselves to their heart's content.
And another person saying that the author intended for such-and-such a
thread to resolve such-and-such a way means diddly squat. If the
author intended it, the author can bloody well write it in the story.
Everything outside the covers of the book is the property of the
imagination. The writer is only important because he is the only one
who can make the imaginary stuff into Truth. If he chooses not to do
so, then it's still out there.
> Many believe that artistic process is irrelavent: Only the final product
>counts. On the other hand, I tend to think that the design process is just
>as, if not more important than the final product.
So you think artistic process counts, but you don't think a character
can change from being *potentially* one character into *being* another
character. Example - Moridin is *potentially* a lot of characters,
including Ishamael. Him becoming stated to be something you do not
think he is, is not only NOT a reversal of what has already been
stated, it is an example of artistic process - the author changes his
mind, and this shit happens. You approve of that, apparently.
I do too. I have all along. I'm wondering what the point of this
discussion really is.
> I come come up with infinite analogies:
Don't bother. Just wake me up before you go go.
> I soak up every WoT related word that I can get out of RJ, because
>it makes the entire experience of reading the books (especially as they're
>being written) more meaningful.
And this gives you the right to expect everyone else to take it to the
same level? I'm not trying to make you agree with me about this, I'm
just saying that for a great many people (the cynical as well as the
not-quite-so-obsessed-as-others), the word of some stranger on the
Internet is not going to cut the cheese, when it comes to discussing
books.
Because it's not RJ's word I am accepting. It's yours.
No offence intended.
>It also promotes very interesting
>discussion, which wouldn't exist in the vacuum you'll have after all is
>said and done and decided.
What if all is not said, done, and decided?
>On the other hand, RJ has stated (hah!) that
>he's going to leave a minor cliffhanger in the ending, just to drive people
>like me nuts.
That's what I said. I read that in an interview, and those are kinda
hard to lie about, if they're in a magazine or something where lies
can be costly.. And it sounds like the intelligent thing to do anyway.
I mean, think about it - all the way through the series, characters
say stuff like, "This isn't like an adventure in a story." Now the
thing about those adventures is, they would have happy endings, and
all the strands would be tied up in the end, neatly. The 'reality' of
the WoT series is not like that at all. So, I can deduce WITHOUT
ASKING RJ that this series will probably end a bit ragged. And after
that, after all is written out and THE END has been written on the
final page, then RJ is out of it.
> Does that answer your question?
I can't remember. But it might have, in a way.
Feel free to accept the word of someone who says RJ said so, even
after the series ends. But don't expect others to do the same. It's
fun to use one's imagination to come up with ways the story might have
gone, and at the moment, it's fun to use one's imagination to try and
think up interesting alternatives in the old Who Is Who game.
I'm not saying, for an instant, that people who like to deal with
certainties do not have imagination. But I am saying that it seems to
be this type of person who is unwilling to accept the fact that other
people may not precisely feel the same way. And the fact that other
people may react with hostility to people who state Bollocks as
Gospel.
> My point was, does RJ's word mean anything to you. Apparently not.
Correct. Glad we sorted that out. RJ can say what he likes, I won't
give him any more airtime than any other cretin, until it's got "There
was a wind" written in front of it.
St. Chuck
There Was a Wind. Light a Match.
St. Chucky the Chunderous
> She was drilling into what she thought was a source of power
>that both of the sexes could use without the limitations inherent
>in having 2 different powers. This is in TSR and the Guide too,
>if I'm not mistaken.
This is what that Aiel guy said. Not what she was actually doing.
However, you could be right. I haven't read the Guide, but I am
extremely dubious about it.
> She was not, on the other hand, consciously drilling through
>the DO's prison in the hopes of creating a bore to free him.
Yes she was.
St. Chuck
Deals In Absolutes, Just Like Avatar.
St. Chucky the Chunderous
>Satsujinki wrote:
>
>> Actually I was wrong I did a reread, He did not tug it, a strand
>> peeled of and touched him, filling him with a heat that did not burn
>> but should have. Now considering that The DO probably knows he Needs
>> Rand alive to fulfill his own dark prophecy and be freed. Maybe he
>> decided to Give Rand a chance against Aginors Double cross.
>
> I'd be interested in seeing the results of a poll on this. I still
>don't
>believe it for a second, but you seemed to have worked it out
>pretty well.
>
> You should take some of your posts from this thread and write
>a sort of proof on "Why I think Rand and Aginor were fighting
>over the TP". I'd be interested to see people with better or more
>recent memories than my own debate it.
*walks in uninvited*
Satters, are you saying that The Eye of the World was actually the
True Power?
St. Chuck
St. Chucky the Chunderous
> It makes more thematic sense if its the Creator speaking.
>For it to be the DO takes too much
I have to agree with this. I mean, the voice said I will take no part,
but the Dark One is definitely taking a part.
What are you arguing about Satters? I haven't been following this
thread - looks to me like someone thinks Rand and Aginor were fighting
and the threads from the Eye of the World were actually True Power,
and the voice was the Dark One? Is this the topic?
St. Chuck
Politely Inquiring
Satsujinki
news:38820484...@news.omen.net.au...
| On Sun, 16 Jan 2000 03:51:12 GMT, Avatar <ava...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
|
| >Satsujinki wrote:
| >
| >> Actually I was wrong I did a reread, He did not tug it, a strand
| >> peeled of and touched him, filling him with a heat that did not
burn
| >> but should have. Now considering that The DO probably knows he
Needs
| >> Rand alive to fulfill his own dark prophecy and be freed. Maybe
he
| >> decided to Give Rand a chance against Aginors Double cross.
| >
| > I'd be interested in seeing the results of a poll on this. I
still
| >don't
| >believe it for a second, but you seemed to have worked it out
| >pretty well.
| >
| > You should take some of your posts from this thread and write
| >a sort of proof on "Why I think Rand and Aginor were fighting
| >over the TP". I'd be interested to see people with better or more
| >recent memories than my own debate it.
|
| *walks in uninvited*
|
| Satters, are you saying that The Eye of the World was actually the
| True Power?
Are you serious?
No I am saying that Aginor was using the TP and Rand and Aginor fought
over it when that strand broke off and touched Rand allowing him to
draw it in as well. And it is because Rand was using the True Power
that the Dark one was able to speak directly to him when Rand called
him out to end it after he wiped out the DO's Army in the pass.
--
-"Bushido is being Dead."
Satsujinki
| So you think artistic process counts, but you don't think a
character
| can change from being *potentially* one character into *being*
another
| character. Example - Moridin is *potentially* a lot of characters,
| including Ishamael. Him becoming stated to be something you do not
| think he is, is not only NOT a reversal of what has already been
| stated, it is an example of artistic process - the author changes
his
| mind, and this shit happens. You approve of that, apparently.
|
| I do too. I have all along. I'm wondering what the point of this
| discussion really is.
Hmm there is possible evidence that RJ has quite possibly changed his
mind according to the way everything was being set up to be. When Rand
set the weaves on Calendar for He who comes, after everything hinted
at it being Logain that would be the one who took Callandor. But
instead in TPOD some puny little Ashaman was sent for it by Rand. Now
either this is not he who comes after and Rand will reset the weaves
in the next book. Or RJ found himself in a quandary, with Logain too
far away to be of use and Rand in need of a Power source for the story
purposes. Rather than Introduce a new Powerful TA he altered what he
had decided upon but not written as fact. And had it happen offstage
where no one could see it but just had the guy turn up with Callandor
and give it to Rand.
Satsujinki
| On Sat, 15 Jan 2000 01:05:14 GMT, Avatar <ava...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
|
| > It makes more thematic sense if its the Creator speaking.
| >For it to be the DO takes too much
|
| I have to agree with this. I mean, the voice said I will take no
part,
| but the Dark One is definitely taking a part.
|
| What are you arguing about Satters? I haven't been following this
fighting
| and the threads from the Eye of the World were actually True Power,
| and the voice was the Dark One? Is this the topic?
I am saying because the threads disappeared into the distance and not
into the eye of the world,and because Neither Aginor nor Balthamel
entered the Eye of the world that the threads were TP, So far it has
been suggested that When Rand sees these threads they lead back to the
Dark one, as he never seems to see them on anyone but the Forsaken.
And that when Rand wipes out the DO's army after travelling he calls
out Ballzamon to end it there and then, but the Dark one responds "I
will take not Part, It is Up to the Chosen one to do what must be done
if he will." And then sends Rand on his merry way to Be converted to
the DO's cause by Ishy, the Chosen Nae'blis. it makes more sense, And
if you follow the encounter closely it seems pretty clear it is the
DO, and not the Creator.
mister c of nine
their genitals, squealed like a pig, and coughed a bowl of phlegm onto
the table. hidden in the phlegm was the following message:
> I suppose I was just used to the more adult understanding
>that exists in that particular news group. If anybody purposely
>practiced deciet there, they'd be ostracized.
>
> Yes I've run into all sorts of wackos on the net, but that
>wasn't during serious discussions of novels. When you read
>a news group long enough you start to know the other people,
>and eventually to trust what they're saying. You can tell if they're
>lying or not, if you're bright.
*grin*
you silly twit.
you'll believe anything.
--
alt.CMMCollective: #0042 of 0069
"Mooching is Irrelevent."
---
"Blessed be the Followers of the
Coke Truck." - Old CMM Saying.
---
Brought to you by CGP Online
and the CMM Collective
http://www.omen.net.au/~cgp
<message ends>
mister c of nine
these idiots reckon he 'said' at signings?
if it's so not a secret, why does he guard it all like it is in
public?
or don't people at signings count?
personally, i think they're all bullshitting.
i could give you a recording of rj singing the australian national
anthem, all six verses if chucky will consent to teaching him...
mister c of nine
their genitals, squealed like a pig, and coughed a bowl of phlegm onto
the table. hidden in the phlegm was the following message:
chuck said i should listen to you, so here goes:
> To my knowledge he hasn't done so.. Here's where I think you're a little
>confused.. RJ isn't telling people what's going to HAPPEN in the future,
>to those questions he says "read and find out". However he WILL clear
>up matters that are set in stone. For example when he tells us who Osan'gar
>and Aran'gar used to be, he is doing so because we are far along that it
>is impossible for him to go back and retroactively change their identities.
bwahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahhzhahaha. yeah, right.
you, sire, are mislead. to my knowledge, he never said who these two
were. never. people presumed from his supposed answer that he was
confirming their opinion is all.
besides which, i was not at his signing, and failed to read any
interview with him where he confirms or denies anything to do with any
character in his stories. full stop. your secondhand knowledge is of
no importance, relevence, or interest to anyone reading the books. it
might be to the rec.arse group, but they've always had their heads so
far up their bottoms they can't tell other shit from their own.
> For him to swap identities around NOW would imply that he hadn't
>worked out much of anything before hand, which would be the sign of
>a poor writer.
now i'm interested. what books have you written lately? done any
critical analyis of anything recently? got examples that we may verify
the validity of your opinion?
>I mean you can't really write a character like Moridin
>for a couple books and THEN decide who he really is.
hmm. tat would depend on how well you pre-plan, and if you have a
creative spirit. the creative person will ALWAYS be changing the plot,
smoothing out its edges, and ironing out problems. yes, a writer might
change the character, the perpetrator, or the identity of the main
subject if it suited the purpose of the story.
>If you're a good
>writer, you decide who the heck your characters are before you write
>about them.
oh, do tell. your books must be pure works of literary art! let us
know so we can buy them.
>Sure characters DEVELOP, but they shouldn't change
>identity completely on a whim.
oooh, and boring books yours must be, too. do tell, i wish to purchase
one.
>> Question - when we get to the end of the series, and 'x' has not been
>> resolved, will you saying RJ said 'x' meant 'abc' mean more or be more
>> valid than me saying 'x' in fact meant 'cba'?
>
> Probably. Peronally I've always taken authors intentions seriously.
>We could both go see a movie and get different experiences from it,
>which is valid, but if I was really into the movie I'd go read the book
>(if there was one) or research the subject so I could get a greater
>sense of what the director or writer intended when they created it.
the movie is different to the book because writers seldom direct their
own movies... they also don't often do the screenplay.
to compare the two would be the method of a very simple person. you're
not that simple i hope. i am still hoping your books are fantastic.
> You can get a much understanding of a work, any work, if you
>know the creator's background, interests, education, and particular
>their intention with that particular work.
bullshit. the writer is irrelevent to any piece. the writer is a
social construct, and as such is merely reflecting the concerns and
values of his particular social position. to consider the writer as an
individual who has ultimate power over his work is so... nineteenth
centuryish. wake up and buy a degree. it might teach you something
about the wonderful world of writing... and reading.
>This is related to the question
>of, what is the importance of the art process? An abstract artist may
>draw a very detailed picture of a tree, then go back and work out
>vertical and horizontal relations between individual branches, creating
>painting after painting of simplified structure, until he arrives at a simplistic
>
>work consistenting entirely of vertical and horizontal fields. Does this
>work have more inherent value than one without all the predevelopment?
you poor, misguided fool.
all works are pre-developed. even those who pretend not to be. the
skills, the styles, the very materials used, are all developed by the
genre long before the artist creates an individual piece. of course,
the more ignorant people refuse to believe such a thing is possible,
but i assure you, nothing is new, it is merely a combination of many
which came before.
> Many believe that artistic process is irrelavent: Only the final product
>counts. On the other hand, I tend to think that the design process is just
>as, if not more important than the final product.
the processes are always important. they are never as strict as you
believe, otherwise our mutual friend, rj would have no need to write
his books, because they'd already be written, by your rule.
> I come come up with infinite analogies: Some people just listen to a
>cd a few times, appreciate it, then on to the next group. Others read
>interviews about the group from the period, or listen to earlier live
>versions of the studio albums to gain a greater understanding of how
>the studio album came to be.
no, you do not gain an understanding of the actual cd. you don't even
gain an understanding of the individuals involved, because you fail to
take into account their social positions. you instead choose to listen
to the writer/artist's interpretation, and are fooled into their way
of simplistic thinking. you then blind yourself to the true function
of the piece, ignore the actual meaning, and decide the songs are
'good, cuz they are emotional and say stuff.'
> I soak up every WoT related word that I can get out of RJ, because
>it makes the entire experience of reading the books (especially as they're
>being written) more meaningful. It also promotes very interesting
>discussion, which wouldn't exist in the vacuum you'll have after all is
>said and done and decided. On the other hand, RJ has stated (hah!) that
>he's going to leave a minor cliffhanger in the ending, just to drive people
>like me nuts.
bzzt.
you are falling for the writer as an artist as an individual who has
power over his work image. it's a facade, boy. wake up! anything rj
chooses, will be defined by previous excursions into his genre. so far
he has done nothing exciting, or deviously cunning. so far, it's all
been relatively straight-forward. the only true depth to these novels
has come from newsgroups trying to figure out how clever mister j is,
by reading too much into nothing and making an art out of a very
simple writing style.
i give the guy credit, his books are okay, and seemingly enjoyable,
but they've not been that different, except for the volume. the actual
depth is ignored, the political and social impact of the plot is
ignored, and as such, he turns a blind eye to many concepts which
could be developed. however, he has evoked the fantastical imagery
seen in much of the older legends of the western cultures, while
attempting to integrate smaller pieces of misunderstood eastern
cultures. nice that he tried, but pity he gets it wrong.
> Does that answer your question?
sure, i still think you're a fan trying to pretend to be a critic.
>> Get me an MP3 of RJ saying shit. Then you can use it in an argument.
>> As long as you can prove it isn't a fake.
>
> I'm not much of a purveyor of MP3s, the only one I have is of him
>talking about the miniseries.
i have one of him groaning while fucking a sheep. they're easy to come
by. (no smut intended in the 'come by' bit. i don't wank to rj fucking
sheep. it's not my fault he has a thing for sheep. and farmboys by the
sound of it...)
>> >Does a tv network have the rights to make a WoT miniseries? Would
>> >it have to be written in Winter's Heart for you to believe it?
>>
>> Does that have ANYTHING to do with the books?
>
> My point was, does RJ's word mean anything to you. Apparently not.
more to the point, does the word of an individual mean anything, when
the individual is not responsible for their words? no, the words of
the artist are alway irrelevent. they distract from the interpretation
of any piece. ignore the artist, concentrate on the piece.
>> If RJ said Moridin was going to die by a hammer to the head, I would
>> have to read it in Winter's Heart (or later books) to believe it, no
>> matter what he said at any signing. He could change his mind.
>
> Well.. if RJ started to make comments which later proved to be
>falsehoods, I'd probably take them a lot less seriously. It seems he
>hasn't been intentionally missleading us so far though, so I'm willing
>to take what he says as honest.
and that is sad to see.
mister c of nine
Chunderous) siezed their genitals, squealed like a pig, and coughed a
bowl of phlegm onto the table. hidden in the phlegm was the following
message:
>C, you gotta listen to this guy.
i looked. i giggled. i replied.
mister c of nine
their genitals, squealed like a pig, and coughed a bowl of phlegm onto
the table. hidden in the phlegm was the following message:
>This is in TSR and the Guide too,
>if I'm not mistaken.
you NEED a guide to help you read this book?
*giggle*
mister c of nine
their genitals, squealed like a pig, and coughed a bowl of phlegm onto
the table. hidden in the phlegm was the following message:
> She was drilling into what she thought was a source of power
>that both of the sexes could use without the limitations inherent
>in having 2 different powers. This is in TSR and the Guide too,
>if I'm not mistaken.
>
> She was not, on the other hand, consciously drilling through
>the DO's prison in the hopes of creating a bore to free him.
just pointing out that *smirk* if rj was as excellent a writer as you
make him out, he wouldn't need a guide to give you people. you'd have
understood everything as it was being written...
St. Chucky the Chunderous
wrote:
>i could give you a recording of rj singing the australian national
>anthem, all six verses if chucky will consent to teaching him...
Not to an American. I don't care what he wrote.
St. Chuck
St. Chucky the Chunderous
wrote:
>| Satters, are you saying that The Eye of the World was actually the
>| True Power?
>
>Are you serious?
Yeah - I wasn't following the argument, sorry.
>No I am saying that Aginor was using the TP and Rand and Aginor fought
>over it when that strand broke off and touched Rand allowing him to
>draw it in as well. And it is because Rand was using the True Power
>that the Dark one was able to speak directly to him when Rand called
>him out to end it after he wiped out the DO's Army in the pass.
Right - I see. I don't know about that, I really doubt it. I mean, the
threads were coming out of the place where the Eye was, and connecting
to Aginor, and then Rand when he took over.
If the threads (which were glowing and not black like the True Power
threads) were the True Power, why were they originating from that
underground cave thingy?
mister c of nine
Chunderous) siezed their genitals, squealed like a pig, and coughed a
bowl of phlegm onto the table. hidden in the phlegm was the following
message:
>On Mon, 17 Jan 2000 08:59:05 GMT, di...@dong.com (mister c of nine)
>wrote:
>
>>i could give you a recording of rj singing the australian national
>>anthem, all six verses if chucky will consent to teaching him...
>
>Not to an American. I don't care what he wrote.
*giggle*
Stargen
>"St. Chucky the Chunderous" wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 02:22:44 GMT, Avatar <ava...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Accidently drilled the bore. Do you think the DO wants his armies
>> >lead by somebody who occasionally has successes by accident?
>>
>> Please quote that it was an accident. Please.
>>
>> St. Chuck
>>
>> I'm not saying you can't, but I'd love to see it.
>>
>
> She was drilling into what she thought was a source of power
>that both of the sexes could use without the limitations inherent
>in having 2 different powers. This is in TSR and the Guide too,
>if I'm not mistaken.
I was gonna try and make something really smutty out of this. Then I
read it again and realized I didn't have to. Its really not bad by
itself, though it makes me think of strap-on's and the DO being a
woman. Av's not normally this graphic when he wants to join or
threads. This is obviously a plug for a lesbian muff diving scene
that evovles into a threesome.
"You thinking what I'm thinking?"
"Ya, Lunch!" - Look Who's Talking.
Stargen
blabbered totally meaningless drivel about:
>Satsujinki wrote:
>
>> Rand doesn't know what he did, he just reache dout and tugged at the
>> starnd that was reaching from Aginor and vanished into the distance,
>
>> not the nearby Eye.
>
>Yes, he tugged at the source of power that was going from the Eye
>to Aginor, pulling the power to himself.
giggle
Whole lotta tuggin' going on.
The Mighty Bob
here, here
heres one to chucky
Bob
He Who Is Shannon
Stargen wrote:
>
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2000 01:06:57 GMT, Avatar <ava...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >"St. Chucky the Chunderous" wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 02:22:44 GMT, Avatar <ava...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Accidently drilled the bore. Do you think the DO wants his armies
> >> >lead by somebody who occasionally has successes by accident?
> >>
> >> Please quote that it was an accident. Please.
> >>
> >> St. Chuck
> >>
> >> I'm not saying you can't, but I'd love to see it.
> >>
> >
> > She was drilling into what she thought was a source of power
> >that both of the sexes could use without the limitations inherent
> >in having 2 different powers. This is in TSR and the Guide too,
> >if I'm not mistaken.
>
> I was gonna try and make something really smutty out of this. Then I
> read it again and realized I didn't have to. Its really not bad by
> itself, though it makes me think of strap-on's and the DO being a
> woman. Av's not normally this graphic when he wants to join or
> threads. This is obviously a plug for a lesbian muff diving scene
> that evovles into a threesome.
>
Kolys Cordazar
>> that both of the sexes could use without the limitations inherent
>> in having 2 different powers. This is in TSR and the Guide too,
>> if I'm not mistaken.
>
> I was gonna try and make something really smutty out of this. Then I
> read it again and realized I didn't have to. Its really not bad by
> itself, though it makes me think of strap-on's and the DO being a
> woman. Av's not normally this graphic when he wants to join or
> threads. This is obviously a plug for a lesbian muff diving scene
> that evovles into a threesome.
Don't be talking about Lanfear that way, man. What are you trying to do to
me?! I'm having to keep my jaw from falling open at the mere thought.
Luckily I can do this with no hands, when I'm thinkin' of Lanfear.
Satsujinki
| Right - I see. I don't know about that, I really doubt it. I mean,
the
| threads were coming out of the place where the Eye was, and
connecting
| to Aginor, and then Rand when he took over.
|
| If the threads (which were glowing and not black like the True Power
| threads) were the True Power, why were they originating from that
| underground cave thingy?
That's just it they weren't coming from the cave. nothing ever says
they are coming from the cave. It says the thread vanishes off into
the distance, and we know that Rand only ever sees the Forsaken with
these threads. He never sees other channellers with them. And the only
time He sees himself with the thread is when he is fighting Baalzamon
after he wrested the power from Aginor.
mister c of nine
bowl of phlegm onto the table. hidden in the phlegm was the following
message:
>Correct. Glad we sorted that out. RJ can say what he likes, I won't
>give him any more airtime than any other cretin, until it's got "There
>was a wind" written in front of it.
that really IS a nice summary.
St. Chucky the Chunderous
wrote:
>On Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:42:32 GMT, hat...@omen.net.au (St. Chucky the
>Chunderous) siezed their genitals, squealed like a pig, and coughed a
>bowl of phlegm onto the table. hidden in the phlegm was the following
>message:
>
>
>>Correct. Glad we sorted that out. RJ can say what he likes, I won't
>>give him any more airtime than any other cretin, until it's got "There
>>was a wind" written in front of it.
>
>that really IS a nice summary.
You can't say "curtsey" without "curt"........
*curtseys*
St. Chuck
Kolys Cordazar
Nothing gets past you, does it?
For the uninformed, a year and three quarters is more time to generate
ANYTHING than 6 months. A year and three quarters is 21 months - that's long
enough to develop, pass on and recover from most of the world's most
interesting diseases.