FAQ for alt.support.boy-lovers
Les Paulin
INTRODUCTION
Here are some frequently asked questions (with answers) about
alt.support.boy-lovers, a newsgroup dedicated to bringing a
sense of peer support and understanding for adult males who feel
attracted to boys on a number of levels.
This FAQ answers many questions about boy love in general,
including what it is, what it entails, and who considers
themselves to be a lover of boys.
In this FAQ, the word "orientation" does not imply a sexual
orientation, but a feeling of attraction.
CONTENTS
1. What is alt.support.boy-lovers?
2. What is the definition of a "boy lover"?
3. Aren't you talking about pedophiles?
4. Isn't pedophilia or boy love a mental illness or perversion?
5. What do boy lovers feel?
6. What does a boy lover do?
7. You mentioned sexual abuse - isn't sex with a minor sexual
abuse?
8. Is a.s.b-l a political forum?
9. What is the group definition of a boy?
10. By support, do you mean supporting actions of boy lovers?
11. What guidelines should be followed when posting to a.s.b-l?
12. Are general items about boys (news stories, poetry/fiction,
diary entries) considered on topic in a.s.b-l?
13. Who else should read a.s.b-l?
14. How can I read a.s.b-l if my local news server doesn't
carry it? How can I post anonymously?
15. Come on, this place is flame bait, isn't it?
16. Are boy lovers able to speak freely?
17. What About girl lovers? Are they welcome here?
18. Are there any boy lovers I would know?
19. Are there any good books I can read?
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
1. What is alt.support.boy-lovers (a.s.b-l)?
a.s.b-l is a forum for males to discuss their feelings toward
boys. It is intended to provide a sense of peer support for
those having difficulty with their feelings, for boy lovers who
feel isolated with their orientation, for those who possibly
have no other avenue of discussion than via a group such as
this, and for anyone else wishing to be educated on the nature
of boy love and who and what boy lovers are.
Being a boy lover is not easy. Many have gone through life with
intermittent thoughts of suicide, mostly due to the isolation
they feel. Depression is a common trait amongst many boy lovers.
With a group such as this, the sense of hopelessness can be
combatted. Peer support is vital for anyone dealing with
feelings that are difficult to talk about; the anonymity of
Usenet is a useful tool for expressing thoughts that many boy
lovers otherwise find impossible to talk about in life.
In essence, a.s.b-l is for boy lovers who do not consider
themselves in need of conversion to an orientation other than
their natural one. It is hoped that peer support will help them
to lead normal, happy lives.
2. What is the definition of a "boy lover"?
A boy lover is a male who considers himself attracted to other
males younger than himself. The usual situation is a male past
puberty who is oriented, sexually or not, toward pre-teen or
teen-aged boys.
Like every other facet of one's personality, being attracted to
boys on whatever level is hardly a matter of choice. Every boy
lover has definitely not chosen his orientation. Rather, like
everyone else in humankind, his orientation has chosen him.
Therefore, it is a moot point to discuss the causes of this
attraction, or to ask the question, "Why would someone choose
such a lifestyle?" Perhaps this is easier to understand if the
point is considered that nobody would choose a lifestyle which
is so socially reprehensible, and filled with such legal
pitfalls.
Boy lovers often discover their feelings at a very early age,
when they themselves are boys. They usually notice that they
prefer to be around younger boys, or have a special talent at
communicating or dealing with boys. Later in life, or at the
same time, they may discover that their feelings are also
erotic. Although one's sexuality is a very important facet of
one's life, for a boy lover who feels so, the fact of being
sexually attracted to boys is not in itself the critical
feeling. This fact is ignored by most people, and by
legislation intended to curtail the rights of individuals to
speak about their feelings. What is most important is the way
in which the boy lover feels emotionally, and this almost always
determines how he will act toward boys. He discovers that not
only do boys have a special, almost romantic, place in his
heart, but that he has very few problems in befriending and
generally communicating with boys if the opportunity presents
itself. Boy lovers make the best teachers and child-care
workers due to the fact that they are most sensitive to boys'
needs, and to the needs of children in general.
Boy love is the condition of being a boy lover. Although it can
describe a variation of homosexuality, it does not necessarily
confine itself to such a description, since many boy lovers have
no sexual attraction to boys. For mostly political reasons, a
boy lover is not "gay".
3. Aren't you talking about pedophiles?
In essence, yes. However, the word "pedophilia" is usually
associated with sexual feelings, and many boy lovers feel that
they are not sexually attracted to boys, or that sexual
attraction is not of paramount importance. Despite what the
media would have people believe, most boy lovers never practice
their sexuality. Whether this has to do with reasons of legal
sanctions against such actions, societal attitudes instilled in
children, or whatever else, is not really that important.
It's unfortunate that "pedophile" has become such an emotionally
charged, dirty word these days. In the dictionary sense, it
describes very well what most boy lovers feel. In fact, the
word "pedophile" is Classical Greek for "boy lover". Only today
has such an innocuous word come to describe as many heinous
actions and mentally ill individuals as there are attitudes
toward the condition. In a.s.b-l, we can use the words
"pedophilia" and "boy love" interchangeably, if armed with the
knowledge that the two words are actually one and the same.
4. Isn't pedophilia or boy love a mental illness or perversion?
The vast majority of North American psychology and law
enforcement, if not the vast majority of the Western world,
consider boy love a mental illness. But that in itself does not
indicate any great truth. Throughout human history, simple
unchallenged belief has been continually proven wrong by the
test of time and endurance.
At one time, only one man in all the world, Galileo, believed
that the sun was at the centre of the solar system, when
everyone in his society thought he was heretical and demon-
inspired for saying so. He died a prisoner for his beliefs, and
was forced to recant his observations publicly. However, he was
right. A mob does not make truth. Only personal experience,
integrity, intelligence, and a desire to live a life of love and
consideration toward other human beings makes truth. This is
the attitude that will hopefully be prevalent in a.s.b-l.
Most people reading a.s.b-l for support do not consider boy love
or pedophilia a mental illness, and do not seek conversion
therapy from conventional psychology. Whereas this may seem
wrong to some, it is the standard truth by which those who've
accepted their feelings, yet need a network of peer support,
live. This is also one of the reasons why people choose to
describe themselves with the words "boy lover", as opposed to
the more negatively-charged word "pedophile".
It should be noted that there are also hundreds of mental health
professionals in North America, and particularly in Northern
Europe, who realize that boy love is not a form of mental
illness, but simply a variation of attraction, orientation, or
desire. At the end of this FAQ is a list of books on the
subject where some names might be found.
5. What do boy lovers feel?
Most boy lovers feel an intense emotional and physical
attraction to boys that can only be described in terms of love.
They feel that boys are objects of beauty and admiration, and as
such, are deserving of endless praise, respect, and adoration.
Boy lovers, when they get talking, are very excitable when
discussing their feelings, at times seeming jubilant to the
point of being annoying. But this is what it means to love
boys; to be excited and happy at the simple fact that boys are
beautiful, and contain the secret of happiness for them.
It may seem to some that the zeal with which boy lovers adore
boys almost borders on the fanatical, even the religious.
Whether this is a result of prolonged separation from their
objects of worship due to factors of law or circumstance is
unclear. What is clear, however, is that boy lovers simply feel
so strongly about boys that they cannot help but describe this
feeling in terms of love and adoration.
Many boy lovers also feel a sense of shame and guilt, and do not
fully understand their own attraction. Given the social
environment in which we live, that is hardly surprising, and is
probably a different feeling from that of considering oneself
mentally ill. It is sincerely hoped that all boy lovers should
be able to talk about their feelings openly, without fear of
reprisal. Whatever conclusions we come to about the condition
as individuals must be respected.
6. What does a boy lover do?
Apart from the obvious answer - "he loves boys" - a boy lover
has many outlets for his feelings.
A favourite pastime of boy lovers is collecting pictures of
boys, and those boy lovers who have no desire to break the law
usually make excellent photographers. An example is the German
photographer Hermann List, who is internationally renowned as
one of the finest photographers of the first half of this
century. (For more famous names, please see "Are there any boy
lovers I would know?")
Boy lovers who have opportunities to do so may befriend boys,
and enjoy a long and fruitful relationship until well past the
boy's childhood. This is an aspect of boy love not clearly
understood by many people. Just because the boy grows up does
not mean the friendship is over. The original reason for the
attraction may be gone, but the seeds of the friendship remain,
and it is often the case that the boy lover, like the Classical
Greek pedagogs, has managed to instill a high sense of moral
dignity, self-esteem, and love in the boy due to his special
relationship with him.
Far from being the predatory monsters that popular media portray
boy lovers to be, they are in fact loving, caring individuals
who live up to their self-designation. A boy lover considers
harm to a boy and to children to be heinous acts of inhumanity,
never justifiable under ANY circumstances, to be punished to the
full extent of the law. These include acts of sexual abuse,
physical or emotional abuse, neglect, or violence of any kind.
7. You mentioned sexual abuse - isn't sex with a minor sexual
abuse?
As discussed, boy love is not simply an issue of sexual
attraction. It is a factor in many boy lovers' lives, but it is
by no means the defining factor. And there are many boy lovers
who do not consider themselves sexually oriented toward boys.
This question, therefore, does not even apply to some boy
lovers.
However, there are some boy lovers who have a desire to practice
their orientation in a sexual way. What can be said about this
is that human sexuality is as variant as human personalities,
and that there are boys in the world who are capable of sex with
boy lovers, and who indeed desire it and seek it out. It is
absurd to believe that the legal age of consent in North
American society defines the natural age of consent for every
boy in the entire world. It is unacceptable, therefore, to
define every act of sex between a man and a boy which is
punishable by law in the United States and Canada as an act of
abuse. Abuse is an act of aggression and coercion, and such
behaviour goes against the very nature of boy lovers. It is a
common misconception that boy lovers are driven by their sexual
desire, and have no control over other aspects of their lives
due to this fact. This was the precise error made concerning
adult-oriented homosexuality in the 1950s and '60s, and it was
proved wholly wrong. It is just as wrong when applied to boy
lovers.
It is undeniable that abuse and coercion exist in society, and
that rape and exploitation is perpetrated against children. But
by their very definition, boy lovers are incapable of such acts.
Boy lovers feel personally repulsed at the idea of the true
sexual, physical, or emotional abuse of children. In a more
tolerant society, boy lovers would undeniably be first in the
ranks to combat real childhood sexual abuse, exploitation,
neglect, and any other condition that would lead to the undue
suffering of children.
8. Is a.s.b-l a political forum?
No. Although some readers may subscribe to the beliefs of some
or other political organization in some way affiliated with boy
love, a.s.b-l is not intended as the place to air out political
views. For example, some boy lovers may feel that the age of
sexual consent in their country is wrong, and that it should be
changed. That may be a legitimate attitude to have, but it is
not the discussion at-hand in a.s.b-l. For purposes of
political change, the law as it applies to boy lovers,
sexuality, or censorship is not appropriate material to be
discussed. This is a forum of peer support, not political
propagation.
There was a popular notion a while ago amongst a.s.b-l's
detractors that it was the "new home" of the political group
"NAMBLA", a.s.b-l is not associated with any organization.
9. What is the group definition of a boy?
This is the source of some confusion among gays. Among many gay
circles a boy can be an adult, the meaning itself in that case
varies somewhat, but normally is one who looks or is younger
than his partner, which can be even be a 25 year old man. But
for the definition of this group, a.s.b-l, we mean a male who is
"under" the age of 18. If "you" are a male in that age bracket,
then a boy "to you" would be a male at least a few years younger
than you, or it could be you, since to others you would be the
boy, because you are a male under the age of 18.
10. By support, do you mean supporting actions of boy lovers?
By support we mean supporting boy lovers themselves, and the
boys they love. Each boy lover has his own set of beliefs, and
what one boy lover may believe could easily be different from
what another boy lover believes, especially on the topic of if a
boy lover should have sexual relations with the boys they love.
So it is not actions we support here, it's the boy lovers
themselves. Just as if you go to a depression support group
where you are supporting the people, and not necessarily the
topic. There are a lot of social pressures on boy lovers these
days, and many feel alone and isolated, not even able to share
their feelings openly among friends (since their friends may not
be boy lovers and may not understand). So we need a place where
we can share and vent openly, among others who feel the same and
have gone through similar problems.
11. What guidelines should be followed when posting to a.s.b-l?
First and foremost, a.s.b-l is intended to be a forum for peer
support for boy lovers who are having difficulty with their
feelings, and for those who may need a place to express thoughts
that may otherwise be impossible for them to talk about in life.
Many boy lovers spend years trying to come to terms and to
develop some sort of understanding of their condition. It is
very difficult for most people to open up on such a personal and
emotional level, so it is extremely important that we maintain
an open, friendly and inviting atmosphere, and that we not
dilute the spirit of the newsgroup with off-topic or abusive
posts. To that end, here are a few guidelines for posting in
a.s.b-l:
- - As has been stated numerous times already, this forum is
specifically for peer support alone. It is absolutely NOT a
place to carry out political activism, or to advertise or
recruit members for political or activist organizations. Do not
conduct such activity here.
- - Please do not post binaries (pictures or sound files). This
is also not the place for erotic fiction, or the advertisement
of www or ftp sites where such material can be found. Please
post or find such material elsewhere.
- - Do not post personal ads. This newsgroup is not a meeting-
place for men and boys.
- - Do not reply to spam, "make money fast" ads, or articles
obviously meant to elicit flames.
- - Please exercise discretion when crossposting between a.s.b-l
and other newsgroups. Past experience has shown that excessive
crossposting almost always leads to long and tiresome flame wars
which, as some readers have pointed out recently, greatly
detract from the usefulness of this newsgroup.
12. Are general items about boys (news stories, poetry/fiction,
diary entries) considered on topic in a.s.b-l?
Yes. Please do post news articles about boys, about children in
general, about boy lovers, your own commentary on items in the
news, or any other related items which may be of interest to the
readers of a.s.b-l. This is also a good place to post items
such as anecdotal stories, diary entries, non-erotic fiction,
and poetry about boys. However, it should be re-emphasized that
a.s.b-l is not a place to post erotic material of any kind.
Please also keep in mind that if you are going to regularly post
a lot of news stories about boys in that there is already a
newsgroup just for that, alt.news.boys, the stories are welcome
here too, but that is not the main focus of this group.
13. Who else should read a.s.b-l?
As stated, a.s.b-l is a forum for boy lovers to discuss their
feelings openly with others like them. The desire is to ensure
boy lovers who may be feeling isolated that they are definitely
not alone. Those wishing to post binaries or erotic material of
any kind should seek out other groups. The sexual aspect of boy
love is not as important in this group as it may be in other
groups (note the hierarchy), although the aspect is not denied.
Those wishing to discuss the politics of boy love should also
go elsewhere.
Those individuals who do not know anything at all about boy love
are welcome to join in on the conversation and to ask serious
questions and concerns freely. Law enforcement agencies are
most welcome, since perhaps an insight into the true
personalities of boy lovers might be helpful. Boys themselves
are welcome of course, although only to participate in light of
this FAQ, as this is not a meeting-place for men and boys.
In short, anyone with serious professional or personal concerns
or thoughts is welcome to join in on the discussion.
14. How can I read a.s.b-l if my local news server doesn't carry
it? How can I post anonymously?
There are many ways to access newsgroups which are not available
on your local server. Among them are freenet accounts, web-
based Usenet gateways, Usenet archives and search services, and
open-access news servers.
However, a detailed discussion of these services would be beyond
the scope of this document. There is already a wealth of
information available on the net on this topic.
For information on posting anonymously, please see Arnoud
"Galactus" Engelfriet's Anonymity and Privacy on the Internet
page at
<URL:http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/>.
15. Come on, this place is flame bait, isn't it?
Yes. But it would be hoped that despite the ravages of the
inevitable vicious flame, a.s.b-l will rise above that to become
what it is intended to be, and that is, a home for true lovers
of boys to enjoy the freedom to discuss their lives in an
atmosphere of mutual understanding and trust. That is why
everyone is encouraged to join in, boy lover or not. Education
has always been, and will always be, the foundation of true
knowledge, and the eradicator of misunderstanding, mistrust, and
suspicion. In this spirit, the readers of a.s.b-l hope to give
some insight to everyone as to the nature of their lives, and as
to the meaning behind the one thing that makes us who we are.
16. Are boy lovers able to speak freely?
In most parts of the world, anyone is allowed to speak about
anything they like without fear of reprisal. This is known as
"freedom of speech". Thus, boy lovers in most places should be
able to at least talk with and write to each other about the way
they feel, about their problems, their instances of depression,
or their need for help.
However, the growth of the political right in the past decade
has created a unique situation for boy lovers in some countries,
most notably in Canada, where even the discussion of non-
fictional aspects of children's sexuality could lead to
prosecution. This creates an interesting problem not only for
boy lovers, but for psychologists treating them, or writing
about childhood sexuality.
Boy lovers do not want to break the law. The law as it exists
in many places is oppressive, and does nothing to guarantee an
individual's right to free speech. As courts decide what is and
is not legal to discuss, boy lovers can do nothing but sit and
watch. An ideal situation in such countries would be the
existence of an open and honest dialogue between law enforcement
and boy lovers represented by some individual or group. This
way, boy lovers could be made aware of how law enforcement
intends to act toward individuals, or what particular
circumstances surround prosecution. Law enforcement could also
be made aware of individuals' concerns over freedom to speak, or
what constitutes necessary communication amongst individuals in
order to guarantee their personal well-being, and the well-being
of those around them.
So, yes, boy lovers can speak freely, but certainly with some
limitations, particularly in North America. Until free-speech-
curtailing laws are constitutionally challenged, law-abiding
individuals should bear in mind that some legislation exists
solely to keep them from communicating with one another.
17. What about girl lovers? Are they welcome here?
There is a group for girl lovers, alt.support.girl-lovers which
you can use if you are a girl lover or wish to discuss that
topic. Girl lovers are welcome here, as many boy lovers are
girl lovers as well, but please keep posts on topic here, which
would be about boy love or boy lovers, though input from girl
lovers is welcomed.
18. Are there any boy lovers I would know?
Most probably, there are boy lovers you work with, have
friendships casual or serious with, or are related to. But some
of the more famous lovers of boys throughout history include the
following:
Alexander the Great.
The Greek philosophers Socrates and Plato. Plato was 13 when the
two met.
The Greek poets Anacreon, Alcaeus, Meleager, Strato, and many
others far too numerous to mention. See the question below about
books.
Many of the unnamed authors of "The Thousand Nights and One
Night"
("Arabian Nights"). See the section below on books.
The Roman Emperor Hadrian.
Michelangelo, the Florentine Renaissance artist, and his
contemporary, Leonardo da Vinci.
William Shakespeare (Need an introduction? Shame on you.) Many
of his 154 love sonnets, or poems, were dedicated to a ten year
old boy named William, the Earl of Pembroke. He speaks of
William as his lover, as a beautiful child, as needing to
continue his family in order to preserve his stunning beauty,
etc. The nicest are sonnet 13, sonnet 18, sonnet 26, sonnet 29,
sonnet 126. Any other favourites?
Oscar Wilde, commonly thought to be the "father of the modern
gay movement". In fact, he loved boys, not men.
Allan Ginsberg, the beatnik poet of the '60s, and his literary
guru William S. Burroughs (of "Naked Lunch" fame).
The poet W.H. Auden, and his lifelong friend, the author
Christopher Isherwood ("Goodbye to Berlin", from which came
"Cabaret").
Peter Tchaikovsky, the Russian symphonic composer, who dedicated
his famous 6th Symphony to his 13-year-old nephew with whom he
had fallen in love.
19. Are there any good books I can read?
Boy lovers are often book lovers. There are many informative
titles available dealing in some way with boy love, and lots of
great books with boys as the main characters.
This section is divided into three parts. The first part lists
non-fiction scholarly essays, treatises, psychological profiles
and census-type material. The second part lists literature
having something to do with boy love, including many famous
works of literature from history. The third part is a
comprehensive list of books with boys as central characters.
NON-FICTION BOOKS ABOUT BOY LOVE:
"Male Intergenerational Intimacy", Sandfort/Brongersma/van
Naerssen ed. A collection of essays on boy love and its meaning
in society and to individuals. It also discusses non-conversion
therapeutic approaches, and includes the addresses of practicing
psychologists and other scholars. ISBN 0-918393-78-7
"Loving Boys", volumes 1 & 2, Dr. Edward Brongersma Described as
a multidisciplinary study of relations between adult and minor
males. ISBN 1-55741-001-1 (vol. 1) ISBN 1-55741-003-8 (vol. 2)
"The Child Lovers", Wilson/Cox Described as a study of
pedophiles in society. ISBN 0-7206-0603-9
"Greek Homosexuality", KJ Dover A scholarly work defining the
roots of much of Classical Greek art and law, and how it is
applied to modern scholarship. ISBN 0-674-36270-5
LITERARY BOOKS ABOUT BOY LOVE:
The Harvard Loeb Edition of "The Greek Anthology", volume IV,
various. This Classical text contains "The Palatine Anthology",
which is a section of the famous Greek Anthology of epigrams
dedicated to boys loved by men. These epigrams, like all in the
Greek Anthology, are the foundation for much of modern
literature. ISBN 0-674-99094-3 (4th vol. only, 5 vols. in all)
"The Book of the Thousand Nights and One Night",
Mardrus/Mathers, translators. The classic collection of stories
commonly known as "The Thousand and One Nights", or "The Arabian
Nights". Many of the tales tell of the beauty of boys which is
observed by all who come into contact with them, and many tales
are specifically about boy lovers and their feelings for boys.
ISBN 0-415-04543-6 (set of 4 vols.)
"Fenny Skaller", John Henry Mackay A fictional work written in
the early part of this century that describes very well the
life-experience of a boy lover, from childhood until middle age.
Based most probably on Mackay's life. ISBN 90-72450-02-7
"Death in Venice", Thomas Mann Mann's classic work of short
fiction about an elderly gentleman vacationing in Venice,
reflecting on a life of literary achievements, who falls in love
with a beautiful fifteen year old boy. ISBN 0-679-72206-8
(collection of short fiction)
"Persecuted Minority", Frits Bernard Fiction detailing the
reciprocated feelings of a thirty year old man for a fifteen
year old boy, and the innocuous circumstances leading to the
man's final destruction. ISBN 90-72450-03-5
"When Jonathan Died", Tony Duvert A highly critically acclaimed
work of fiction from France, which tells of a man and boy's
relationship, and how ultimately the circumstances of their
surroundings are the boy's undoing despite his happiness. ISBN
0-85449-154-6
GREAT BOOKS WITH BOYS IN THEM:
"Paddy Clarke Ha Ha Ha", Roddy Doyle One of the best books I've
ever read, from the author of "The Commitments" and "The
Snapper". It's a beautiful recreation of the life of a ten year
old boy, written in the style of boy speech, and painfully,
sorrowfully truthful in every sentence, every word. ISBN 0-433-
39116-2
"The Way of a Boy", Ernest Hillen The memoir of a Dutch-Canadian
who spent part of his boyhood in Japanese concentration camps in
Java during World War II. ISBN 0-14-017975-5
"Tales From Firozsha Baag", Rohinton Mistry A collection of
short fiction by one of Canada's best writers. Most stories are
about boys and their relationships with each other and those
around them. ISBN 0-7710-6059-9
"Haroun and the Sea of Stories", Salman Rushdie A fantasy tale
about the effects of censorship on ordinary people, as seen
through the eyes of a boy. ISBN 0-140-14223-1
"The Belgariad", David Eddings, books one through five An epic
fantasy in the Tolkien tradition about the life of a young boy
chosen by destiny to lead the universe out of certain
destruction. ISBN 0-345-33551-1 (Book One, "Pawn of Prophecy",
five books in all; followed by the sequel, "The Mallorean".)
"Ender's Game", Orson Scott Card Science fiction about a boy
genius groomed to be a military leader after the near-extinction
of humankind following alien invasion. Excellently written.
ISBN 0-812-55070-6
Readers of a.s.b-l are encouraged to post their own book
recommendations to the newsgroup.