Stupid Question about CJ

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LPetrazickis

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Oct 27, 2002, 7:47:24 PM10/27/02
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Why isn't the title of "Carpe Jugulum" "Carpe Iugulum"? The current
convention is to use 'v' for the consonantal 'u' but to keep consonantal
'i' as 'i' and not 'j'.

Did the period in which the older way was still taught intersect with
the period when Pratchett took Latin or was the 'j' adopted in order to
dumb down the title?:)

Leons Petrazickis
import java.lang.disclaimer;

Mary Messall

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Oct 27, 2002, 8:22:17 PM10/27/02
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LPetrazickis wrote:
> Why isn't the title of "Carpe Jugulum" "Carpe Iugulum"? The current
> convention is to use 'v' for the consonantal 'u' but to keep consonantal
> 'i' as 'i' and not 'j'.
> Did the period in which the older way was still taught intersect with
> the period when Pratchett took Latin or was the 'j' adopted in order to
> dumb down the title?:)

1. My Latin textbook had J's in it, a year and a half ago.

2. It's just a dog-latin pun, like all of the other dog-latin puns on
Discworld. I guess you can call that "dumbing down" if you really want
to, since it involves making it possible for people who haven't taken a
refresher course on Latin recently to get the joke. But it also makes
the joke funnier, lots of the time.

-Mary

--
{I drank at every vine. / The last was like the first. / I came upon
no wine / So wonderful as thirst.} {"Heaven bless the babe!" they said
"What queer books she must have read!"} -two by Edna St Vincent Millay
http://indagabo.orcon.net.nz/ -> my soapbox and grandstand and gallery

David Chapman

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Oct 27, 2002, 8:51:17 PM10/27/02
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The seas boiled, the skies fell, and LPetrazickis said:

> Why isn't the title of "Carpe Jugulum" "Carpe Iugulum"? The current
> convention is to use 'v' for the consonantal 'u' but to keep
> consonantal 'i' as 'i' and not 'j'.

In Roundworld's Latin, yes. In Discworld's Laotatian,
evidently not.

--
I guess a Cleric Mercenary would be like a cross between a Jehovah's
Witness and a Hell's Angel... Someone who wakes you up at 6:30 a.m. on
a Saturday morning and then tells you to go f*** yourself.


Terry Pratchett

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Oct 28, 2002, 5:13:09 AM10/28/02
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In article <3DBC891C...@sprint.ca>, LPetrazickis
<SPAMSUXpet...@sprint.ca> writes

>Why isn't the title of "Carpe Jugulum" "Carpe Iugulum"? The current
>convention is to use 'v' for the consonantal 'u' but to keep consonantal
>'i' as 'i' and not 'j'.
>
>Did the period in which the older way was still taught intersect with
>the period when Pratchett took Latin or was the 'j' adopted in order to
>dumb down the title?:)

Who gives a damn about a 'current convention'? There will be another one
along soon.

I've just pulled a couple of books off the reference shelf at random and
found plenty of Js in Latin. Fashions come and go and, importantly,
non-scholars (that is, most people) lag well behind if indeed they're
even aware of the changes.

The important thing here is that someone whose knowledge of Latin is
only average will have a much better chance of 'getting' Carpe Jugulum
because of the Jugulum/jugular resonance that they'll have with Carpe
Iugulum, which depending on the font will get most Brits thinking about
ears.

It's hardly a case of dumbing down. It is, at worst, an acceptable if
(arguably) archaic usage for clarity -- as opposed to, say, Fabricate
Diem, Pvnc :-)


--
Terry Pratchett

Mike Stevens

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Oct 28, 2002, 9:25:25 AM10/28/02
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"Terry Pratchett" <Te...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7s0$ZVA12Q...@unseen.demon.co.uk...

> In article <3DBC891C...@sprint.ca>, LPetrazickis
> <SPAMSUXpet...@sprint.ca> writes
> >Why isn't the title of "Carpe Jugulum" "Carpe Iugulum"? The current
> >convention is to use 'v' for the consonantal 'u' but to keep
consonantal
> >'i' as 'i' and not 'j'.
> >
> >Did the period in which the older way was still taught intersect
with
> >the period when Pratchett took Latin or was the 'j' adopted in
order to
> >dumb down the title?:)
>
> Who gives a damn about a 'current convention'? There will be another
one
> along soon.
>
> I've just pulled a couple of books off the reference shelf at random
and
> found plenty of Js in Latin. Fashions come and go and, importantly,
> non-scholars (that is, most people) lag well behind if indeed
they're
> even aware of the changes.

The scholars who lay down these views are usually classicists, basing
their findings on the writings etc of the classical period of Latin
literature (as a rough approximation, from the foundation of Rome to
its fall to invaders). But Latin as a language continued after that,
and continued to evolve all the way to the various modern languages
descended from it. Somewhere along the way there evolved a sort of
"Church Latin", which wasn't Classical Latin, but was arguably the
dominant language of Europe throughout the Middle Ages (whenever you
think they began and ended). And, of course, it remains to this day
in use in the RC Church (although nowadays alongside the vernacular
in each country). So I would argue that considerably more people have
written and understood Church Latin that wrote and understood
Classical Latin in its own day, and it was probably a more important
literary influence than Classical Latin (for the last millennium).
Also, of course, we're very used to it from the names of music written
for the Church. And Church Latin uses the "j".


--
Mike Stevens
The old farts' old fart
web site http://www.mike-stevens.co.uk (Temporarily out of action)


Lodestone

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Oct 28, 2002, 12:13:40 PM10/28/02
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Thus spake Mike Stevens:

>And Church Latin uses the "j".

Would've been ncie if someone told that to the makers of Indiana Jones, hey?
--
Lodestone

A lie told often enough becomes the truth.
(Lenin)


Andrew Gray

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Oct 28, 2002, 12:02:41 PM10/28/02
to
In article <3DBC891C...@sprint.ca>, LPetrazickis wrote:
> Why isn't the title of "Carpe Jugulum" "Carpe Iugulum"? The current
> convention is to use 'v' for the consonantal 'u' but to keep consonantal
> 'i' as 'i' and not 'j'.
>
> Did the period in which the older way was still taught intersect with
> the period when Pratchett took Latin or was the 'j' adopted in order to
> dumb down the title?:)

/me suspects it's for the same reason that if you wrote 'iugular vein',
people would give you a very odd look...

--
-Andrew Gray
shim...@bigfoot.com

Alec Cawley

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Oct 28, 2002, 12:19:19 PM10/28/02
to
LPetrazickis wrote:

> Why isn't the title of "Carpe Jugulum" "Carpe Iugulum"? The current
> convention is to use 'v' for the consonantal 'u' but to keep consonantal
> 'i' as 'i' and not 'j'.
>
> Did the period in which the older way was still taught intersect with
> the period when Pratchett took Latin or was the 'j' adopted in order to
> dumb down the title?:)

1. Diskworls is still somewhere in the 18th/19th centuries, during wguch
roundworld latin used hard Js. Discworld Latation may well follow suit.

2. It is mostly a pun on the Jugular vein, which is known by most English
(ant thus, possibly, Morporkian) speakers to have a hard J.

--
@lec Šawley
From address is valid

Pete

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Oct 28, 2002, 6:11:56 PM10/28/02
to
Indeed. Who gives a damn about nitpicking at all. It all makes me laugh, and
the thousands (if not more) other readers of the book must have laughed at
least once or twice, so why pick at it? ;)

Pete - simpleton with only basic knowledge of Latin*

* As in, enough to get me through pub quizzes. Oh, and a fear of lightning
is called Bronchophobia... I didn't get that one at the quiz without
consulting the Latin dictionary. And there were no j's and i's to quarrel
about so I'm happy :)

The Gonzo Lager

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Oct 28, 2002, 6:26:44 PM10/28/02
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On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:11:56 -0000, "Pete" <pe...@x-com.co.uk> wrote:

>Indeed. Who gives a damn about nitpicking at all.

Are you sure you're in the right place? ;)

The Gonz'

Pete

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Oct 28, 2002, 6:38:53 PM10/28/02
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Lol! Good point well made ;) Forgot this is what happens in newsgroups!

Silly me... carry on chaps and chapesses! :)

Pete


Pete

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Oct 28, 2002, 6:39:55 PM10/28/02
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Buggrit... correction... Fear of thunder... Forget my own head next!

Pete


LPetrazickis

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Oct 28, 2002, 7:30:35 PM10/28/02
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Terry Pratchett wrote:
> It's hardly a case of dumbing down. It is, at worst, an acceptable if
> (arguably) archaic usage for clarity -- as opposed to, say, Fabricate
> Diem, Pvnc :-)

LOL. That's, erm, a brilliant line. I would definetly call it novel-quality.

That "v" is very pretentious and you know it, but that just adds to the
overall effect.:D


Nullus anxietas,

Leons Petrazickis
import java.lang.disclaimer;

Matt

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Oct 29, 2002, 1:06:34 AM10/29/02
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"Lodestone" <lode...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:apjr7i$fk2$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...

> Thus spake Mike Stevens:
> >And Church Latin uses the "j".
>
> Would've been ncie if someone told that to the makers of Indiana Jones,
hey?
> --
> Lodestone
>


They were getting there, roundabout.

The "I" and "V" were all about ease of carving the things into stone, after
all. Very runic.


Richard Bos

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Oct 29, 2002, 4:00:34 AM10/29/02
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"Pete" <pe...@x-com.co.uk> wrote:

> Buggrit... correction... Fear of thunder... Forget my own head next!

Not wanting to rain on your Latin parade, but I think you'll find that's
brontophobia, not bronchophobia. Nobody I know is afraid of windpipes.

Richard

Guitar Huw

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Oct 29, 2002, 4:08:16 AM10/29/02
to
In article <3dbe4de3...@news.nl.net>, r...@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl
says...

I'm afraid of bagpipes, but that's about as close as you're going to
get.

--
Huw

Daibhid Chiennedelh

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Oct 29, 2002, 5:49:34 AM10/29/02
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>From: r...@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl (Richard Bos)
>Date: 29/10/02 09:00 GMT Standard Time
>Message-id: <3dbe4de3...@news.nl.net>
Not even if they drop down on you when you're not expecting it? It's not
something I've experienced, but I imagine it would terrify me[1].

[1] Number seven in my list of reasons not to become a medical student...
--
Dave
Now Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc for three years
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"I hate playing *frivolous* Mornington Crescent. It wrecks the whole thing."
-Humphrey Lyttleton

Pete

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Oct 29, 2002, 11:22:20 AM10/29/02
to
Oh hell... got it wrong twice. Thanks for correcthing me... I got it right
on the night thanks to the Brontosaur - Thundering Lizard (or summik... used
to be big into me dino's).

You know what I'm babbling on about at least ;)

Pete


David Chapman

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Oct 29, 2002, 11:04:11 AM10/29/02
to

Except for the ones in the Old Count's Johnson organ,
of course.

Mine's the one with the sheet music of Sonata for
Thunderstorm and Scantily Clad Young Women in
the pocket...

Sylvain Chambon

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Oct 29, 2002, 12:55:18 PM10/29/02
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{<apmc5j$h82$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>, Pete, alt.fan.pratchett} ->

> You know what I'm babbling on about at least ;)

Actually no, I haven't got a clue.

Could you *please* leave some quoted text to restore context? Thanks a
lot.

Sylvain, confused.

Matthew Blissett

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Oct 29, 2002, 4:33:38 PM10/29/02
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Terry Pratchett wrote:
> In article LPetrazickis writes

>> Why isn't the title of "Carpe Jugulum" "Carpe Iugulum"? The current
>> convention is to use 'v' for the consonantal 'u' but to keep
>> consonantal 'i' as 'i' and not 'j'.
>>
>> Did the period in which the older way was still taught intersect with
>> the period when Pratchett took Latin or was the 'j' adopted in order
>> to dumb down the title?:)
>
> I've just pulled a couple of books off the reference shelf at random
> and found plenty of Js in Latin. Fashions come and go and,
> importantly, non-scholars (that is, most people) lag well behind if
> indeed they're even aware of the changes.

(non-scholars) So who reads it as a hard J sound and who takes the 'correct'
Y-like sound [if that is correct]?
This could (well, "could") mean... well... something.

--
MAtt


Admiral Jota

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Oct 29, 2002, 10:06:07 PM10/29/02
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"Matthew Blissett" <mattbl...@hotmail.com> writes:

>Terry Pratchett wrote:
>> I've just pulled a couple of books off the reference shelf at random
>> and found plenty of Js in Latin. Fashions come and go and,
>> importantly, non-scholars (that is, most people) lag well behind if
>> indeed they're even aware of the changes.

>(non-scholars) So who reads it as a hard J sound and who takes the 'correct'
>Y-like sound [if that is correct]?
>This could (well, "could") mean... well... something.

I'm not sure if a couple years of high school Latin make me a scholar or
not, but I pronounce "Jugulum" as "Iugulum". This may have confused some
bookstore employees when I was asking when they expected to get _CJ_ in
paperback. While I personally tend to prefer I spellings for the most
part, I favor the J in this case, since it's necessary for the "jugular"
pun to work right.


--
_/<-= Admiral Jota =->\_
\<-= jo...@shelltown.com =->/

Richard Bos

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Oct 30, 2002, 2:29:16 AM10/30/02
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"Matthew Blissett" <mattbl...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Terry Pratchett wrote:
> > I've just pulled a couple of books off the reference shelf at random
> > and found plenty of Js in Latin. Fashions come and go and,
> > importantly, non-scholars (that is, most people) lag well behind if
> > indeed they're even aware of the changes.
>
> (non-scholars) So who reads it as a hard J sound and who takes the 'correct'
> Y-like sound [if that is correct]?

Since I think of it as Latatian, not as Latin, I pronounce it "Carpih
Joogoolum".

Richard

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