[A] Wee Free Men

156 views
Skip to first unread message

Daibhid Ceannaideach

unread,
Apr 29, 2003, 6:13:50 AM4/29/03
to
Yay! NO-one's posted annotations for TWFM yet, meaning I can do all the obvious
ones and leave you with the tricky stuff!

Spoiler Space

C
r
i
v
e
n
s
!

T
h
e
r
e

c
a
n

o
n
l
y

b
e

o
n
e

t
'
o
u
s
a
n
d

Okay, let's start.

The cover:
Anyone else think the Jolly Sailor looks oddly familiar? Like a certain Cunning
Artificer, perhaps?


p11 Tiffany Aching
As mentioned on the group, Pterry chose the name Tiffany because it's exactly
the sort of name a witch shouldn't have, even if it does mean Epiphany.

I can't help wondering if Aching is meant to mean anything. Looking at the
varied spellings on p17, the only one that's not there seems to be Aiken. And
TWFM is a *bit* like a Joan Aiken YA supernatural fiction. That seems a bit
weak, though.


p15 The Chalk
At first, I thought the Chalk would seem to be the DW equivilent of the
chalklands of Midland-to-Not-Quite-Northern England which (unlike the South
Downs) are indeed called wolds. However, most of the folkloric stuff seems to
come from Wiltshire and Sussex, so I'm not sure. Granny Aching's accent sounds
Yorkshire to me, although doubtless a Sassanach will be along in a minute to
tell me I'm wrong.

Looking at the Discworld Mappe, I'd guess that the Chalk is between the Ramtops
and the Sto Plains.


p24 "I can't *do*, but I *can* teach"
Refers to the saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach".


p29 Jenny Green-Teeth
A creature or spirit which is supposed to live in still water and eat children.
Presumably, parents thought this was a more convincing warning than "Stay away
from the pond, or you'll fall in and drown".

Incidentally, when I was a member of the Eden Court Young Amateur Dramatics
Society, I appeared in a play called "Don't Open The Fridge", about all the
taboos and restrictions on children. One of my three lines was "Don't go near
the water, or Jinny Greenteeth will get you. But I digress...


p41 Yan Tan Tethera
This is indeed the ancient counting language of shepherds in Northern England.
It was also used by the Nac Mac Feegle themselves in CJ.


p42 hats that can "withstand falling farmhouses"
"Wizard of Oz". Miss Tick may have heard about Nanny Ogg's encounter with a
farmhouse, and how she was saved by her hat (WA). It's the willow
reinforcement.


p51 Arken Hill
"Arken" *is* one of the spellings on p17, reinforcing the idea that the land
knows who it *really* belongs to.

The legends concerning Arken Hill are similar to those of Dragon Hill,
Oxfordshire (apparently where St George fought the dragon, and not Syria at
all) and Silbury Hill, Wiltshire (alleged burial site of a knight in gold
armour, or possibly King Sil, whoever he might be). Both hills are flat topped,
like Arken Hill, and believed to be artificial.


p63 The picture
As revealed in the Afterword, this is "The Fairy Feller's Master Stroke" by
Richard Dadd. You can see it here:
http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/classes/Shakespeare_Illustrated/Dadd.Feller.jpg .
It's worth referring to when reading chapter 10.


p67 "It's a' gang aglay"
"It's all gone wahoonie-shaped". One of the best known bits of Scots, due to it
being what the best laid plans o' mice and men do in "To a mouse" by Robbie
Burns.


p73 The headless horseman
From "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" by Washington Irving.


p75 Big Yan
Glaswegian comedian Billy Connolly is known as "The Big Yin".


p107 Odd carvings in the chalk
Obviously, chalk figures like the Rude Man of Cerne or the horses that you find
all over the chalk areas of Britain.


p113 "Onna black horse"
The Elf Queen rides a black steed in the ballad of "Tam Lin".


p116 Grimhounds
The varied Hellhound/Devil Dog legends of Britain. Specifically, the "grim"
part of the name and the reference to them haunting graveyards suggests the
Kirk Grim, which is supposed to guard churchyards. There are many Devil Dog
legends in Sussex, most of them on, yes, the Downs. Most of these creatures are
described much as the grimhounds (the orange eyebrows are a DW addition, in
accordance with the Law of Running Gags), and to see them is a portent of
death.


p123 "You live in one of the mounds? I thought they were, you know, the graves
of ancient chieftains."
In folklore, Bronze Age Burial Mounds are supposed to be the homes of fairy
folk. On the Disc, of course, they're both.


p125 Fion
Is it just me, or does anyone else visualise her as Katy Murphy?


p135 "When a well trained gonnagle starts to recite the enemy's ears explode."
A reference to William Topaz McGonagall, Scotland's Worst Poet, and also a
*slight* exaggeration of the abilities acredited to bards in Celtic tradition.
Note that the gonnagle turns out to be called William.


p139 Tir-far-Thiónn
Actually, this means "Land over word that does not exist". "Land Under Wave"
would be "Tìr-fa-Tonn". Pterry has presumably made the same decision I
initially did concerning my surname, namely that the accurate version didn't
*look* Gaelic enough.


p149 "He's got a bo-ut for chasin' the great white whale fish on the salt sea.
He's always chasing it, all round the world. It's called Mopey."
"Moby Dick or, The Whale" by Herman Mellville.


p152 He [William the gonagle] spoke differently
While the other Nac Mac Feegle sound like people doing Rab C Nesbitt
impressions (although they're more coherent than they were in CJ), William has
the sort of exaggerated Ayrshire burr you might hear folk put on when reciting
Burns.


p153 "We'll dance the FiveHundredAndTwelvesome Reel to the tune o' 'The Devil
Among The Lawyers'"
There are Foursome, Eightsome and Twelvesome Reels, which involve exchanges of
partners between two, four or six couples. 512 is eight cubed, so presumably
it's more complicated, but basically the same. "The Devil Among The Lawyers" is
probably a reference to Burns' "The Deil's Awa' Wi' The Exciseman".


p159 Trilithons
The arrangement of stones suggests Stonehenge and the Avebury circle (which
isn't far from Silbury Hill). Although they seem to have been erected for much
the same reason as the Dancers in Lancre, there is no mention of them being
magnetic, certainly the frying pan gets through no trouble.


p168 The battlecries
"They can tak' oour lives, but they cannae tak' oour troousers!" This is "They
can take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom", from Braveheart,
possibly mixed with "Donald, Where's Yer Troosers" by Andy Stewart.

"Bang went saxpence!" That's one of those punchlines everyone's forgotten the
joke to, reflecting the alleged meanness of the Scots (as we all know it's
really just the Aberdonians [KIDDING!]). It comes from a Punch cartoon in which
a Scotsman complains about the expense of London. "Mun, a had na’ been
the-erre abune Twa Hoours when- Bang went Saxpence!!!”

"Ye'll tak' the high road, and I'll tak' yer wallet!" is based on the refrain
of "The Bonny, Bonny Banks of Loch Lomond": "Ye tak' the high road, and I'll
tak' the low road".

"There can only be one t'ousand!" is still based on "There can be only one"
from Highlander, just as in was in CJ.

"Ach, stick it up yer trakkans!" Er, that really speaks for itself.


p180 "The King Underrrrrr Waterrrrrrr"
Possibly a reference to the Jacobite toast "The King Over the Water".


p192 drome
A combination of "dream" and "drone", perhaps?


p192 "If ye eats anythin' in the dream, ye'll never wanta' leave it"
Varied legends (including Childe Rowland and Burd Helen, see below) mention
that eating fairy food is a sure way to get trapped in Elfhame. (Or Fairyland,
for the Sassanachs).


p199 "..oooooiiiiiit *is* with grreat lamentation and much worrying dismay,"
*Exactly* the sort of thing McGonagall wrote. Although the "ooooooo" bit seems
to have crept in from Spike Milligan's "William McGonagall: The Truth At Last".


p204 Tiffany looked up at a white horse...And there was a boy on it....
In the ballad of "Tam Lin", Fair Janet is told she can recognise Tam when she
goes to rescue him, as he is the only rider on a white horse


p204 "This is *my* forest! I command you to do what I say!"
Still Tam Lin:

"And why come you to Carterhaugh
without command from me?"
"I'll come and go" young Janet said
"And ask no leave of thee".

...or words to that effect, there're lots of different versions.


p204 Roland
Roland's name, however, suggests the ballad "Childe Rowland and Burd Helen",
about a young boy who has to rescue his sister (and the brothers who had
previously failed) from the King of Elfland. Of course, the DW version is worse
than useless.


p207 Farm food was mostly shades of white or brown.
Um, except for the teddy bear sweeties, which I thought seemed a bit out of
place at the time...


p210 Cailey
Actually spelt "Cheilidh" , this is the Gaelic word for a party. These days
used almost exclusively to signify Scottish Folk Music Festivals.


p212 She cut Roland's head off.
Exactly what Rowland has to do to break the spell on Burd Helen. Although in
that case, it was *because* she spoke to him.


p215 "Crivvens!" (She was sure it was a swear word)
Like Truckle the Uncivil, it's possible that, in the mouth of a Mac Feegle,
*anything*'s a swear word, but in fact "crivvens!" translates into Sassanach
roughly as "good grief!", although I've been unable to find an etymology for
it. It's now a bit of a joke, used only by Sunday Post cartoon characters "Oor
Wullie" and "The Broons", and "I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue"'s Hamish and Dougal.
Help ma boab!


pp225-256 "There was this fine lady on a horse with bells all over its harness
and she galloped past me when I was out hunting and she was laughing..."

Tam Lin was captured while hunting, although the circumstances were different.
When Thomas the Rhymer met the Queen "At ilka tett of her horse's mane/Hung
fifty siller bells and nine".

p287 "Once I was a lawyer"
As has been strongly foreshadowed throughout the book. In addition, once you
*know*, a glance at the cover shows the swords of the Feegle immediately
surrounding him are glowing.


p287 "Potest-ne mater tua suere, amice"
"Vis-ne faciem capite repleta" ("Would you like a face that is full of head?")
is translated on p289. Similarly, this means "Does your mother have the ability
to sew, friend?"


p289 the legal battlecries
"Twelve hundred angry men!" comes from the film title "Twelve Angry Men".
That's the easy one

"Nae more courtroom drama!" If there's a source for this phrase, I can't find
it, but "courtroom drama" means either a film, play or TV show about a trial,
or a real trial that has aspects of the dramatic.

"We ha' the law on oour side!" *This* phrase, OTOH, has been used so often that
if there was ever an original source (which there probably wasn't), it's long
gone. Chalk it up as a cliche.

"The law's made to tak' care o' raskills!" comes from "A Vanishing Gleam" by
George Elliot, who spelt "rascals" like that all the time. Note that in *that*
book "take care of" means "deal with". The Feegles seem to be using it to mean
"protect"...


p292 The Queen...changed shape madly in Tiffany's arms.
Another commonplace of folk tales, where the hero(ine) has to keep a tight grip
on the villain(ess) whatever (s)he becomes. In paticular, Tam Lin again, and
the battle between the Queen of Elfland and Fair Janet although in that case it
was Tam himself Janet had to keep hold of.


Well, that's all I spotted. Anyone else?
--
Dave
Now Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc for FOUR years
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"The real reason for the whole thing is that it was just too much effort *not*
to have a war."
-Cpt Edmund Blackadder, Blackadder Goes Forth

Melody S-K

unread,
Apr 29, 2003, 6:17:34 AM4/29/03
to

"Daibhid Ceannaideach" <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030429061350...@mb-m01.aol.com...

> Yay! NO-one's posted annotations for TWFM yet, meaning I can do all the
obvious
> ones and leave you with the tricky stuff!
>
> Spoiler Space

Anyone got a spare Life to offer this poor soul?

:)

Melody


Andrew Irish

unread,
Apr 29, 2003, 6:19:22 AM4/29/03
to
Daibhid Ceannaideach wrote:
> Yay! NO-one's posted annotations for TWFM yet, meaning I can do all the obvious
> ones and leave you with the tricky stuff!
>

I haven't read them yet, and I won't till I've read the book.

I just wanted to say,

YOU B*****! :)

My copy was posted while I'm here at uni, so I'll have to wait unitl
tonight to read it. Grrr.

--
Andrew
Wishing his life away. Well, 6 hours of it, anyway.

jester

unread,
Apr 29, 2003, 6:36:48 AM4/29/03
to
On 29 Apr 2003 10:13:50 GMT, Daibhid Ceannaideach
<trim>

>p42 hats that can "withstand falling farmhouses"
>"Wizard of Oz". Miss Tick may have heard about Nanny Ogg's encounter with a
>farmhouse, and how she was saved by her hat (WA). It's the willow
>reinforcement.

From about the same point, I can't believe you missed the yellow, sick,
toad.

Andy Brown (only read the first couple of chapters so far)
--
God does not play dice with the Universe. -- Albert Einstein.

Terry Pratchett

unread,
Apr 29, 2003, 8:36:00 AM4/29/03
to
In article <slrnbasle0...@angel.jester.nu>, jester
<use...@jester.nu> writes

>
>From about the same point, I can't believe you missed the yellow, sick,
>toad.
I just happened to note a toad had a skin which had had unfortunately
gone a bit yellow because it had been ill, Far be it from me to make a
pun. *You* did that:-)
--
Terry Pratchett

Daibhid Ceannaideach

unread,
Apr 29, 2003, 8:39:43 AM4/29/03
to
Had one once. It required a lot of maintenace, so I gave it up.

Square Bear

unread,
Apr 29, 2003, 9:06:04 AM4/29/03
to

"Daibhid Ceannaideach" <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030429083943...@mb-m01.aol.com...

> >
> >From: "Melody S-K" Mel...@wibble.org
> >Date: 29/04/03 11:17 GMT Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <b8ljh6$b8ei0$1...@ID-6544.news.dfncis.de>
> >
> >
> >"Daibhid Ceannaideach" <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:20030429061350...@mb-m01.aol.com...
> >> Yay! NO-one's posted annotations for TWFM yet, meaning I can do all the
> >obvious
> >> ones and leave you with the tricky stuff!
> >>
> >> Spoiler Space
> >
> >Anyone got a spare Life to offer this poor soul?
> >
> Had one once. It required a lot of maintenace, so I gave it up.

Don't worry, there is always an afterlife after death!
come to the fresh start club!

Daibhid Ceannaideach

unread,
Apr 29, 2003, 11:42:01 AM4/29/03
to
>
>From: John Ewing jo...@gelsalba.co.uk
>Date: 29/04/03 16:15 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3eb19127...@news.demon.co.uk>
>
>On 29 Apr 2003 10:13:50 GMT, daibhidc...@aol.com (Daibhid

>Ceannaideach) wrote:
>
>>Yay! NO-one's posted annotations for TWFM yet, meaning I can do all the
>obvious
>>ones and leave you with the tricky stuff!
>>
>>Spoiler Space
>>
>[snip]

>
>>p153 "We'll dance the FiveHundredAndTwelvesome Reel to the tune o' 'The
>Devil
>>Among The Lawyers'"
>>There are Foursome, Eightsome and Twelvesome Reels, which involve exchanges
>of
>>partners between two, four or six couples. 512 is eight cubed, so presumably
>>it's more complicated, but basically the same. "The Devil Among The Lawyers"
>is
>>probably a reference to Burns' "The Deil's Awa' Wi' The Exciseman".
>
>George MacDonald Fraser's book 'The General Danced At Dawn' recalls
>the performance of an eightsome reel, then a sixteensome, a
>thirty-twosome, and then...

<snip>

>'Some say it actually happened, that a one hundred and
>twenty-eightsome reel was danced on the parade ground that night,

Interesting. Thanks for that. Sounds worth reading.

>I would have my doubts about 512; Fraser tells that the 64 took one
>hour and thirteen minutes.

I wondered about that, however it's possible that the gnome/pictsie ability to
move (relative to their height) approximately ten times as fast as a human
applies.

Jeremy C B Nicoll

unread,
Apr 29, 2003, 7:02:03 AM4/29/03
to
In article <20030429061350...@mb-m01.aol.com>,
Daibhid Ceannaideach <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote:

> There are Foursome, Eightsome and Twelvesome Reels ...

I've read of bored soldiers from Scottish regiments (eg in North Africa
in WW2) doing 32- and 64-some reels.

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

phobos

unread,
Apr 29, 2003, 3:59:47 PM4/29/03
to
daibhidc...@aol.com (Daibhid Ceannaideach) wrote in message news:<20030429061350...@mb-m01.aol.com>...

> As revealed in the Afterword, this is "The Fairy Feller's Master Stroke" by


> Richard Dadd. You can see it here:
> http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/classes/Shakespeare_Illustrated/Dadd.Feller.jpg .
> It's worth referring to when reading chapter 10.

Which also inspired a song from the album Queen II.

> p125 Fion
> Is it just me, or does anyone else visualise her as Katy Murphy?

Well, since she's small, blue and given her general attitude, I had a
mental image of Princess Ruto of the Zoras. That said, I had a vision
of Tiffany as Miyazaki's witch Kiki. Maybe I should lay off the
Japanese stuff for a while.



> p292 The Queen...changed shape madly in Tiffany's arms.
> Another commonplace of folk tales, where the hero(ine) has to keep a tight grip
> on the villain(ess) whatever (s)he becomes. In paticular, Tam Lin again, and
> the battle between the Queen of Elfland and Fair Janet although in that case it
> was Tam himself Janet had to keep hold of.

A more recent example, the Corinthian throttling Loki in Sandman. One
of the shapes Loki assumed in that fight was that of the very child
the Corintian was trying to rescue.

Jon

unread,
Apr 30, 2003, 11:16:40 AM4/30/03
to
žus cwęš John Ewing:
> On 29 Apr 2003 15:42:01 GMT, daibhidc...@aol.com (Daibhid

> Ceannaideach) wrote:
>
>>
>>From: John Ewing jo...@gelsalba.co.uk
>
>>>George MacDonald Fraser's book 'The General Danced At Dawn' recalls
>>>the performance of an eightsome reel, then a sixteensome, a
>>>thirty-twosome, and then...
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>'Some say it actually happened, that a one hundred and
>>>twenty-eightsome reel was danced on the parade ground that night,
>>
>>Interesting. Thanks for that. Sounds worth reading.
>
> I reckon his three books of short stories - The General Danced At
> Dawn, McAuslan In The Rough and The Sheikh And The Dustbin are all
> worth reading. To quote from the back cover of the first:
>
> 'Private MacAuslan, J., the Dirtiest Soldier in the World (alias the
> Tartan Caliban or the Highland division's answer to Pekin Man)
> demonstrates his unfitness for the service in this first volume of
> stories of life in a Scottish regiment....'

I second that recommendation; I believe they are now available in a combined
volume, too. For my money, the inter-regimental quiz is in one of the
funniest short stories ever written.

" ... and then the same full-back caes his pins frae under him again."
"That full-back wants sortin' oot, he's jist an animal ..."


--
Hoinalaryup! Squidaped-oyt!
http://members.aol.com/brierleyjon/index.htm
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sloopjonb/
Remove 'notme' to reply
afpfiance to Ssirienna, chocolate baths a speciality
afpfilkslave to CCA, talented authoress

Andrew Irish

unread,
Apr 30, 2003, 6:06:42 PM4/30/03
to

Hmm, you appear to have missed one I thought was obvious. Ok, I'm
probably wrong, but I'll never know if'n I don't say.

The main Nac Mac Feegle, Rob Anybody. As opposed to just Roy?

--
Andrew

Andrew Gray

unread,
Apr 30, 2003, 6:07:30 PM4/30/03
to
In article <b8oovb$c86kv$1...@ID-184931.news.dfncis.de>, Jon wrote:
>
> I second that recommendation; I believe they are now available in a combined
> volume, too. For my money, the inter-regimental quiz is in one of the
> funniest short stories ever written.

Ah, but it's the editorialising that's the joy.

'Scotsmen, of course, if they feel national pride is in any way at
stake, tend to go out of their minds; tell them there was to be a
knitting bee against England and they'd be on the touch-line shouting
"Purl, Wullie! See's the chain-stitch, but!"'

--
-Andrew Gray
shim...@bigfoot.com

Daibhid Ceannaideach

unread,
Apr 30, 2003, 6:15:32 PM4/30/03
to

Oh, well done, Mr Irish. I think you may have something there.

Alec Cawley

unread,
Apr 30, 2003, 4:34:12 PM4/30/03
to
Terry Pratchett wrote:

Well, they say that authors don't know the real meaning of their books, and
it takes a true critic to find it out...


--
@lec Šawley
Knig fo teh tyops

Warwick

unread,
May 2, 2003, 5:02:16 AM5/2/03
to
In article <20030429061350...@mb-m01.aol.com>,
daibhidc...@aol.com says...
> I can't help wondering if Aching is meant to mean anything. Looking at the
> varied spellings on p17, the only one that's not there seems to be Aiken. And
> TWFM is a *bit* like a Joan Aiken YA supernatural fiction. That seems a bit
> weak, though.

The Archers. They even live at home farm.

Warwick

Daibhid Ceannaideach

unread,
May 2, 2003, 8:26:24 AM5/2/03
to

<thud>

<thud>

<thud>

Asprin, please...

Andrew Hickey

unread,
May 2, 2003, 8:43:04 AM5/2/03
to

I get the Archers reference... is Aching= *Aitken* as both Aitken and Archer
are disgraced ex-Tory MPs who've spent time in jail, or is that too
Baconian?

--
http://stealthmunchkin.com
Stealth Munchkin - The World's Greatest Band
Oceania has always been at war with Syria


Andrew Irish

unread,
May 2, 2003, 9:23:23 AM5/2/03
to

IMO, that's just a coincidence. This is mostly a children's book, and
children don't spend too much time watching politics as a general rule.
:) Also, would Terry really have named the hero after two disgraced
MPs? Of course, this is just my uneducated opinion...

--
Andrew

Andrew Hickey

unread,
May 2, 2003, 10:29:04 AM5/2/03
to

True... but how many children listen to The Archers either? And *that*
reference is definitely there. I was thinking the thought process might have
gone Archers-Aitken-Aching.
Probably not though...

Richard Eney

unread,
May 2, 2003, 9:16:52 PM5/2/03
to
In article <20030429061350...@mb-m01.aol.com>,
Daibhid Ceannaideach <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote:
>Yay! NO-one's posted annotations for TWFM yet, meaning I can do all the obvious
>ones and leave you with the tricky stuff!

>Spoiler Space

20

18

16

14

12

10

8

6

4

2

0


>p11 Tiffany Aching
>As mentioned on the group, Pterry chose the name Tiffany because it's exactly
>the sort of name a witch shouldn't have, even if it does mean Epiphany.
>
>I can't help wondering if Aching is meant to mean anything. Looking at the
>varied spellings on p17, the only one that's not there seems to be Aiken. And
>TWFM is a *bit* like a Joan Aiken YA supernatural fiction. That seems a bit
>weak, though.

I'm thinking along the lines of multiple resonances: such as Aiken Drum -
the folklore one, not the character in the SF series - and "akin" though
I'm not sure what she's akin to, with a side order of "a-king" which of
course has nothing to do with someone opposing a queen and being rescued
by a male opposite number.

>p51 Arken Hill
>"Arken" *is* one of the spellings on p17, reinforcing the idea that the
>land knows who it *really* belongs to.

<snip>
>flat-topped

Side-order of "ark", boat carrying what will be rescued from the wreck...

>p73 The headless horseman
>From "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" by Washington Irving.

Shirley there were others before then?

>p123 "You live in one of the mounds? I thought they were, you know, the
>graves of ancient chieftains."
>In folklore, Bronze Age Burial Mounds are supposed to be the homes of
>fairy folk. On the Disc, of course, they're both.

And in L&L a bit more.

>p139 Tir-far-Thiónn
>Actually, this means "Land over word that does not exist".
>"Land Under Wave" would be "Tìr-fa-Tonn". Pterry has presumably
>made the same decision I initially did concerning my surname,
>namely that the accurate version didn't *look* Gaelic enough.

And no connection with "farthing" or "farting" intended, and
no sinking/rising island (Jingo) either.

=Tamar

The Stainless Steel Cat

unread,
May 3, 2003, 7:09:15 PM5/3/03
to
In article <20030429061350...@mb-m01.aol.com>,
daibhidc...@aol.com (Daibhid Ceannaideach) wrote:

>p75 Big Yan
>Glaswegian comedian Billy Connolly is known as "The Big Yin".

As is anyone in Glasgow who's not obviously a "Wee Yin".

A common greeting when two fellows meet would be "Haw, big yin!".

p81 "Nae problemo"

Not really an annotation, just a comment. This is obviously Feegle for "no
problem", same as it is in Glasgow. The thing is, "no problem" in Esperanto
is "nej" (pronounced "nae") "problemo".

>p125 Fion
>Is it just me, or does anyone else visualise her as Katy Murphy?

I saw her as the illustration on the cover, who looked like Shirley Manson
(of Garbage) to me.

Cat.
--
Jazz-Loving Soul Mate and poet to CCA
La Rustimuna ^Stalkato


GG

unread,
May 4, 2003, 2:59:16 PM5/4/03
to
daibhidc...@aol.com (Daibhid Ceannaideach) wrote in message news:<20030429061350...@mb-m01.aol.com>...
> p153 "We'll dance the FiveHundredAndTwelvesome Reel to the tune o' 'The Devil
> Among The Lawyers'"
> There are Foursome, Eightsome and Twelvesome Reels, which involve exchanges of
> partners between two, four or six couples. 512 is eight cubed, so presumably
> it's more complicated, but basically the same. "The Devil Among The Lawyers" is
> probably a reference to Burns' "The Deil's Awa' Wi' The Exciseman".

.... or the 'original tune' for an eightsome :The De'il Amang the Taylors

GG

Andrew Gray

unread,
May 4, 2003, 6:58:54 PM5/4/03
to
In article <b8trg0$4hs$1...@library.lspace.org>, Andrew Irish wrote:
>
> IMO, that's just a coincidence. This is mostly a children's book, and
> children don't spend too much time watching politics as a general rule.
>:) Also, would Terry really have named the hero after two disgraced
> MPs? Of course, this is just my uneducated opinion...

Well, there was that nice young gentleman in MAA... although he wasn't
really disgraced per se...

--
-Andrew Gray
shim...@bigfoot.com

Steve James

unread,
May 5, 2003, 10:00:00 AM5/5/03
to
In article <20030429061350...@mb-m01.aol.com>, daibhidc...@aol.com (Daibhid Ceannaideach) wrote:
Spoiler Space

c
a
n

o
n
l
y

b
e

o
n
e

t
h


o
u
s
a
n
d

> p41 Yan Tan Tethera
> This is indeed the ancient counting language of shepherds in Northern England.
> It was also used by the Nac Mac Feegle themselves in CJ.
>

Jake Thackray, who died in January this year at the age of 63, used to sing a
song called Molly Metcalfe, about a Swaledale shepherdess. Rather a sad song.

The chorus was as follows
Yan, Chan, Tether, Mether, Pip
Azar, Sazar, Akka, Cotter, Dick
Yanadick, Channadick, Thetheradick, Metheradick, Bumfit
Yanabum, Chanabum, Thetherabum, Metherabum, Jiggit

Steve (Steeljam) *BF DAcFD (UU) *
Resident Opsimath in Redivivus Studies

Rhiannon S

unread,
May 5, 2003, 10:12:13 AM5/5/03
to
A couple of very dubious references.
p233/234 "Love?"..."What's that got to do with it?" A possible Tina Turner
reference?

And is the title of the Book itself an annotation?
Wee Free Men, is that a link to the Scottish Free Presbyterien<sp?> Kirk, also
known as the Wee Free's?
****************************
Rhiannon
http://www.members.aol.com/mddestiny/entrypage.html
ClipclopclipclopBANGBANGclipclopclip
-- Amish driveby shooting

Jon

unread,
May 5, 2003, 1:29:23 PM5/5/03
to

Leaping in here for some more that no-one's spotted yet (I think) although
they probably will have before I finish this post;

p.8 - is it just me that thinks Paul Kidby's illustration of Tiffany
captures her character perfectly, and also puts me in mind of his depiction
of Mss. Weatherwax?

p.11 - not everyone may know that tickling trout is a well-known way of
poaching, that is, stealing, them (although when tickling trout in this
manner care must be taken not to actually touch them until the final grab).

p.12 - 'offski' - it may be part of general Glaswegian dialect, but I always
associate this with Rab C Nesbitt.

p.15 - 'The Chalk' - the only other place I have seen downland referred to
in this manner is in the Rudyard Kipling story /The Knife and the Naked
Chalk/, from /Rewards and Fairies/. Also a story about protecting your home
from predators, but a much darker one.

p.66 - eiggs - which may represent 'eggs' in a Feegle accent, but Eigg is
also the name of a Hebridean island. It's near Rhum and Muck; the Feegles
would fit right in.

p.75 - bogle - Scots for ghost or apparition

p.83 - scunner - Scots for dirt, filth

p.83 - schemie - pejorative Scots term for someone who lives in a Housing
Scheme, i.e. a nasty concrete housing estate 'built' as replacement for
slums, but rapidly becoming slums themselves.

p.90 - Drinkin'! - note that the Wee Frees, aka the Free Presbyterian Church
of Scotland, are /death/ on drinking. (And sex, for that might lead to -
dancing).

p.92 - can anyone supply an etymology for 'kelda'?

p.173 - hoggets - I'm not sure if any of the other strange words in
/Diseases of the Sheep/ actually mean anything, but I do know 'hogget' is
Lowland Scots/ Northern English for a ewe.

p.285 - callyack - this is probably meant to represent the Gaelic
/cailleach/, old woman, which is actually pronounced 'kyle-yak' (with a good
hard cough on the k).

p.301 - "You beat the Queen at the end. But you had help, I think." There
has been some debate as to how a mere child could do what it took all Granny
Weatherwax' power to do; it has been suggested it was a different queen.
FWIW I think it was the same queen (the remarks about the King point to
that, IMO). She may not have been as powerful this time for some reason; or
perhaps we should consider that the Chalk and Granny Aching, together, are
fairly powerful themselves.

p.317 - jobbies - modern Scots for, eh, solid excrement. I believe it
derives from the use of the phrase "I'm just off to do a wee job" as a
euphemism for "I'm just going for a


--
Squidaped-oyt! Hoinalaryup!
remove notme to reply
http://members.aol.com/brierleyjon/
www.livejournal.com/users/sloopjonb/
afpfiance to Ssirienna
afpfilkslave to CCA (talented authoress)


Thomas Johnson

unread,
May 5, 2003, 1:55:49 PM5/5/03
to
Jon wrote:

> p.173 - hoggets - I'm not sure if any of the other strange words in


> /Diseases of the Sheep/ actually mean anything, but I do know 'hogget' is
> Lowland Scots/ Northern English for a ewe.
>


Hogget is the term used to describe an adult female sheep before she has
had any offspring. In some parts of the country it is shortened to hogg,
which can then cause some confusion if the farm also keeps pigs...

--
Thomas

Alec Cawley

unread,
May 5, 2003, 2:34:11 PM5/5/03
to
Jon wrote:


> p.173 - hoggets - I'm not sure if any of the other strange words in
> /Diseases of the Sheep/ actually mean anything, but I do know 'hogget' is
> Lowland Scots/ Northern English for a ewe.

In Worcestershire, where my father kept sheep for a few years, a hogget was
a sheep in its second year. A sheep is only a lamb in the year it is born,
and the butchers only recognise lamb and mutton, so that sheep not intended
for wool or breeding are slaughtered before they become hoggetts. But,
acccording to the locals and the evidence as I tasted, hoggets yield more
meat of equivalent quality to lamb.

(Apologies to the vegiies around here).

Actually, I am reasonable certain that "hog" was a generic term in certain
areas for sheep. The name Howard comes from Hog-ward, which was a shepard,
not a pig ward (pigs don't get warded because they don't wander over the
hills).

RB News

unread,
May 5, 2003, 5:06:14 PM5/5/03
to

"John Ewing" <jo...@gelsalba.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3eb9c756....@news.demon.co.uk...
> [snip]

> >p.83 - scunner - Scots for dirt, filth
>
> I wouldn't put it as strongly as that; I'd say a 'scunner' was
> something or someone to which / whom you'd taken a strong dislike.
> Or in another sense it just means 'dislike' (as a noun); e.g. to take
> a scunner to something or someone is to develop a dislike for it /
> them. Maybe 'dislike' is too mild, perhaps 'strong aversion' is
> better.
>
> [snip]

John has the sense of it.

"Scunner is possibly one of the most expressive and useful words in Scots. It
conjures up something disgusting or distasteful, annoying or perverse,
unappetising or irritating. To have "a richt scunner" is to be really "off"
something. Somebody or something can be scunnerous, scunnerin, scunnerful or
scunnersome. We all take a scunner to something, or somebody, sometime!"

this comes from a really useful (but not comprehensive) guide to Scots
vocabulary, see:

http://www.scotsmagazine.com/words.htm

- it doesn't include "jobbie" . . .

cheers
Roger


PussInSpooks

unread,
May 5, 2003, 5:22:47 PM5/5/03
to
>From: mddestiny

I think he said in an interview that it was no more than liking the rhythm of
the words, but that didn't stop it being the basis of Invernessian badgering
that for a Wee Free book he really had to do a highland signing ;-)

Steve James

unread,
May 5, 2003, 6:01:00 PM5/5/03
to
Spoiler Space

c
a
n

o
n
l
y

b
e

o
n
e

t
'


o
u
s
a
n
d

p258 Jolly Sailor
I have a problem with the bit where they are in the boat and
observe the label.
'On it, but spelled backwards in letters larger than the moon..."
The words are backwards but the actual letters are correctly
orientated. This is not a possible natural orientation.
If the wording was seen from the back of the label then the
letters would be mirrored.
Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

PussInSpooks

unread,
May 5, 2003, 6:22:23 PM5/5/03
to
>From: Jon

>p.92 - can anyone supply an etymology for 'kelda'?

Apparently it is norse for a Spring or Well.

Cyclops

unread,
May 5, 2003, 7:49:25 PM5/5/03
to

As with the cleaning up of the Nac Mac Feegle language, I suspect this is
because the book is aimed toward younger readers. Having said that, I
wonder how many of the said younger readers will spot the "William the
gonnagle" bit and some of the legends that don't normally find their way
into children's stories.

-
Cyclops
Evil Heretic Infiltrator

Torak

unread,
May 5, 2003, 8:09:38 PM5/5/03
to
Cyclops wrote:
>>
> I wonder how many of the said younger readers will spot the "William the
> gonnagle" bit and some of the legends that don't normally find their way

Did that exist before the Goons, or is it a GS reference?

"Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to introduce myself. I am William J
McGoonagle, poet, tragedian and twit."


Speaker-to-Customers

unread,
May 5, 2003, 9:41:24 PM5/5/03
to

It exists before the Goons.

William Topaz McGonagall, 1825-1902, of Dundee. Renowned as the World's
Worst Ever Poet. His most famous poem was "The Tay Bridge Disaster".

Spike Milligan was a fan of McGonagall.

Paul Speaker-to-Customers

Warwick

unread,
May 6, 2003, 5:54:01 AM5/6/03
to
In article <BADA0AAB9...@atuin.demon.co.uk>,
stee...@atuin.demon.co.uk says...
> p81 "Nae problemo"
>
> Not really an annotation, just a comment. This is obviously Feegle for "no
> problem", same as it is in Glasgow. The thing is, "no problem" in Esperanto
> is "nej" (pronounced "nae") "problemo".

Actually... Terminator 2 "No Problemo". The annoying sprog teaches Arnie
to use it.


Warwick

Daibhid Ceannaideach

unread,
May 6, 2003, 8:09:17 AM5/6/03
to
>
>From: Alec Cawley ne...@spamspam.co.uk
>Date: 05/05/03 19:34 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3ra69b.ms3.ln@alec>
>
>Jon wrote:

<Stuff about lamb and mutton>

>(Apologies to the vegiies around here).

'Sokay, not like we don't know it happens...

>Actually, I am reasonable certain that "hog" was a generic term in certain
>areas for sheep. The name Howard comes from Hog-ward, which was a shepard,
>not a pig ward (pigs don't get warded because they don't wander over the
>hills).

I'm trying really hard *not* to allow the rerm "Hog-ward" put me in mind of a
certain school. And failing.


--
Dave
Now Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc for FOUR years
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc

"Nanotechnology could be huge."
Lord Sainsbury, Science and Innovation Minister

Andrew Gray

unread,
May 6, 2003, 10:18:47 AM5/6/03
to
In article <20030505101213...@mb-m20.aol.com>, Rhiannon S wrote:

(I wouldn't be calling this a spoiler, now. Or holding with sspace in an
[A], anyway...)

> And is the title of the Book itself an annotation?
> Wee Free Men, is that a link to the Scottish Free Presbyterien<sp?> Kirk, also
> known as the Wee Free's?

Thank God. I'd been waiting here in a sort of dulled terror, dreading
that someone was going to proudly announced they'd figured out the title
was due to the name of an incident character in Braveheart or soemthing
equally elaborate. My faith in humanity is somewhat restored.

--
-Andrew Gray
shim...@bigfoot.com

Daibhid Ceannaideach

unread,
May 6, 2003, 10:43:23 AM5/6/03
to
>From: Warwick use...@affordable-afpers.co.uk
>Date: 06/05/03 10:54 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3eb78638$1...@warwick.dnsalias.com>

Actually... ALF, predating T2 by five years. It was one of his main
catchphrases.

Now, the queston is: is a mac Feegle more likely to sound like a Glaswegian, an
Esperantino[1], a T1000 droid or a Melmacian? Remember you've got all three
lifelines, and notice the frantic coughing of the guy in the audience whenever
you mention answer A.

[1] Yes, I know. Obscure Red Dwarf ref.

Daibhid Ceannaideach

unread,
May 6, 2003, 11:13:19 AM5/6/03
to
>
>From: John Ewing jo...@gelsalba.co.uk
>Date: 05/05/03 21:42 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3eb9c756....@news.demon.co.uk>
>
>On Mon, 5 May 2003 18:29:23 +0100, "Jon" <brierley...@aol.com>
>wrote:
>
>>>>In article <20030429061350...@mb-m01.aol.com>,
>>>>daibhidc...@aol.com (Daibhid Ceannaideach) wrote:
>>>>h

>>>>o
>>>>u
>>>>s
>>>>a
>>>>n
>>>>d
>>

>>p.83 - scunner - Scots for dirt, filth


>
>I wouldn't put it as strongly as that; I'd say a 'scunner' was
>something or someone to which / whom you'd taken a strong dislike.

As popularised by the Super-Gran books by Forrest Wilson, and the later TV
series starring Gudrun Ure.

Daibhid Ceannaideach

unread,
May 6, 2003, 12:17:28 PM5/6/03
to

Remind me again, you *are* Scottish aren't you?

William Topaz McGonnagle was a real bloke, possibly Scotland's second most
famous poet[1], and prefered, in some circles, to Burns[2]. His poetry
approaches genius, albiet from the wrong side, since he was to rhyme and meter
what B.S. Johnson was to bricks and mortar. He was also a real character, who
was convinced he was pretty good, and that everyone else thought so as well.

Spike Milligan was a huge fan of the man, hence the Goon Show connection.

[1] Almost certainly Dundee's most famous poet.

[2] Rabbie wrote some great stuff, but nothing that compares to "The Tay Bridge
Disaster".

kilyth

unread,
May 6, 2003, 12:57:48 PM5/6/03
to
jester <use...@jester.nu> wrote in message news:<slrnbasle0...@angel.jester.nu>...
> On 29 Apr 2003 10:13:50 GMT, Daibhid Ceannaideach

> <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote:
> >Yay! NO-one's posted annotations for TWFM yet, meaning I can do all the obvious
> >ones and leave you with the tricky stuff!
> >
> >'

> >o
> >u
> >s
> >a
> >n
> >d
> >
p. 93-94 "See their swords? They glow blue in the presence of lawers."

In The Hobbit and LOTR Bilbo's sword, Sting, glows blue (or is it
green ICR)in the presence of Orc's (or was it goblins? Damn this new
brain, I've lost all my old stuff)

Am I the only person left these days who can't sleep until they read
the whole thing on the day they buy it, and then re-reads it about 5
times in the first forthnight? Well, I suppose I am pretty weird about
my books.

Kilyth
(and they're ALL *MY* books)
(this is why I don't work in a book shop)

Andrew Irish

unread,
May 6, 2003, 1:08:59 PM5/6/03
to
Andrew Irish wrote:
>> Okay, let's start.
>>
>
> Hmm, you appear to have missed one I thought was obvious.

OK, one more, but not exactly an annotation. Which are evil things;
either you get the joke/reference or you don't... :) (Sometimes someone
needs to point a joke out, but sometimes we seem to dig a bit far)

Anyway, I was going to say...

Some bits remind me of the film Labyrinth. The one with David Bowie,
yes. The specific bits involve the dromes; when she dreams she is at
home and it's all nice and the ballroom scene. They're not exactly the
same, in fact have merely passing similarities, but enough to remind me.
There's also a slight echo of the plot, but that's probably because
children being stolen by goblins/elves is not a new idea[1] :)

[1] There's an old folk tale that says if a woman sneezes three times
just after giving birth, and then someone says "Bless you" to each
sneeze, the goblins will steal the children and swap them for some of
their own.

--
Andrew

Torak

unread,
May 6, 2003, 12:12:24 PM5/6/03
to
Daibhid Ceannaideach wrote:
>
> Actually... ALF, predating T2 by five years. It was one of his main
> catchphrases.

I love that show! It's brilliant! It's wonderful! I still have nightmares
about the icepick episode which I saw when I was eight!


Torak

unread,
May 6, 2003, 12:13:22 PM5/6/03
to
Daibhid Ceannaideach wrote:
>> From: "Torak" a.w.m...@durham.ac.uk

>>
>> Did that exist before the Goons, or is it a GS reference?
>>
>> "Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to introduce myself. I am William J
>> McGoonagle, poet, tragedian and twit."
>
> Remind me again, you *are* Scottish aren't you?

Nope, I just live there and adore the Bru.

> William Topaz McGonnagle was a real bloke, possibly Scotland's second most
> famous poet[1], and prefered, in some circles, to Burns[2]. His poetry
> approaches genius, albiet from the wrong side, since he was to rhyme and
> meter what B.S. Johnson was to bricks and mortar. He was also a real
> character, who was convinced he was pretty good, and that everyone else
> thought so as well.

Oooh.


Cyclops

unread,
May 6, 2003, 5:54:49 PM5/6/03
to

I think David had already annotated the McGonnagle bit which is why I
didn't see any point in doing it myself. All the Goons were fans of
McGonnagle. It just happens it was Milligan, rather then Harry Secombe or
Peter Sellers, who wrote the scripts. If it had been Sellers, no doubt
the original would have been even more famous than he actually was, what
with Hollywood, people who remember him as an actor but have never heard
of Milligna, etc...

--
Cyclops
Evil Heretic Infiltrator

Torak

unread,
May 6, 2003, 5:03:52 PM5/6/03
to

Yup, quite likely. Sellers was famous elsewhere, whereas Milligan was only
famous in Britain and all parts of the world.


Sylvain Chambon

unread,
May 6, 2003, 6:10:20 PM5/6/03
to
In article <913c9ec4.03050...@posting.google.com>, kilyth
says...

<no more spoilers>

> Am I the only person left these days who can't sleep until they read
> the whole thing on the day they buy it, and then re-reads it about 5
> times in the first forthnight? Well, I suppose I am pretty weird about
> my books.

Ah. Actually, WFM was the first Discworld book in a while that I *could*
put down to get some sleep. Dunno what this says[1] since I found it
pretty good.

> (and they're ALL *MY* books)
> (this is why I don't work in a book shop)

Sometimes I feel like I'm a kind of book shop. Or a public library.

I *know* I own all Discworld books, as well as a fair few Rankin and
Banks books, etc. I just wish I knew where they were...

(At the last count: 2 DW books in Stockholm; 1 somewhere in Paris; 1
Rankin there as well; 1 Banks somewhere in Brittany. I have no idea
where the rest of 'em are...!)

Sylvain.

[1] Except that I was damn tired!

Cyclops

unread,
May 6, 2003, 7:40:06 PM5/6/03
to

Strangely not true. He seems to have been strangely overlooked in the
States. A friend of mine was visiting earlier this year and I showed her
a video of the "Heroes of Comedy" programme about Milligna which was shown
as a tribute just after he died. She couldn't stop laughing but asked how
come she'd never heard of hime before.

OK, I know there are Goons/Milligna fans on the other side of the Pond but
there aren't really that many of them outside of Canananananada. Sellers
was famous throughout the world as an actor. Milligna was best known as a
writer and only really within the Commonwealth.

Torak

unread,
May 6, 2003, 9:54:10 PM5/6/03
to

That's what I said - Commonwealth = world for the purposes of the gag. It
wouldn't work otherwise, y'see - it was a quote from one of the
Transcription Service reruns: "...before the Goons became a household name
in all parts of the world."

Never mind.


Steve James

unread,
May 7, 2003, 3:10:00 AM5/7/03
to

Then there was Eric Sykes and Michael Bentine, both who were involved
in the script writing.
ES had his finger in so many pies - Radio, TV and film.
MB was at one time responsible for buying the munitions for the Peruvian
army. I always wondered if the Bumblies were a form of undercover weapon.
The one time I visited his home I did come across a large heavily armoured
door with a big lock - was that where he kept the arms, or the next edition
of the Square World?

kilyth

unread,
May 7, 2003, 7:50:19 AM5/7/03
to
Sylvain Chambon <sgpch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.192251332...@news.cis.dfn.de>...

I dont' like libraries. Not wanting to offend any librarians
(especially simian ones), but I always feel like a library is like a
brothel, where the books are just used for peoples pleasure, and then
dumped and forgotten about. I think there's something pure about
buying and owning a book, it's yours forever.

Kilyth
(I would like to remind people once again that, boy am I weird)

Mary Messall

unread,
May 7, 2003, 11:50:27 AM5/7/03
to
kilyth wrote:
> I dont' like libraries. Not wanting to offend any librarians
> (especially simian ones), but I always feel like a library is like a
> brothel, where the books are just used for peoples pleasure, and then
> dumped and forgotten about. I think there's something pure about
> buying and owning a book, it's yours forever.

Ah, but it's in a bookstore that you actually *pay* for your pleasure.

Personally I think public libraries are the most decent thing in our
society, and I'm continually impressed that they exist. They serve a
social welfare function, too. Education really is the key to a better
life, and the library can provide a decent education when the school
system fails. If I were rich, I'd endow lots of public libraries in
inner cities.

-Mary

Torak

unread,
May 7, 2003, 2:58:00 PM5/7/03
to
Steve James wrote:
>
> MB was at one time responsible for buying the munitions for the Peruvian
> army. I always wondered if the Bumblies were a form of undercover weapon.
> The one time I visited his home I did come across a large heavily armoured
> door with a big lock - was that where he kept the arms, or the next
> edition of the Square World?

Bentine was of course also a firearms instructor. Not to mention extremely
skilled at launching BBC TV Centre into orbit.

It must be true, because Patrick Moore saw it as well.


Cyclops

unread,
May 7, 2003, 4:15:35 PM5/7/03
to
On Wed, 07 May 2003 03:54:10 +0200, Torak wrote:

> it was a quote from one of the
> Transcription Service reruns: "...before the Goons became a household
> name in all parts of the world."
>

Greenslade's intro to The Mummified Priest. The first of the "Vintage
Goons" programmes which were rewritten (sometimes only slightly) new
recordings in 1957/58, based on scripts from 1953/54.

Torak

unread,
May 7, 2003, 4:58:07 PM5/7/03
to

That's the one!

A fellow goonatic! Are you ever on alt.fan.goons?


PussInSpooks

unread,
May 7, 2003, 6:06:00 PM5/7/03
to
>Steve James wrote:
>>

>> MB was at one time responsible for buying the munitions for the Peruvian
>> army. I always wondered if the Bumblies were a form of undercover weapon.
>> The one time I visited his home I did come across a large heavily armoured
>> door with a big lock - was that where he kept the arms, or the next
>> edition of the Square World?

in The late sixties his nephew was prone to sitting in the dickie seat of my
parents car (whilst being the worse for drink) waving a peruvian flag and
shouting incomprehensible peruvian political slogans at the bewlidered
inhabitants of central Scotland.. apparently.
See? Cumbernauld *used* to be an exciting place.

John Aldis

unread,
May 7, 2003, 8:54:21 PM5/7/03
to
On Wed, May 7, 2003 9:58 pm, Torak <mailto:a.w.m...@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>A fellow goonatic! Are you ever on alt.fan.goons?

*raises hand, waits for applause, as usual not a sausage. begins to
speak...*

I...

OMNES: Shut up, Aldis!

*muttering* Shut up, Aldis, stupid Aldis...

--
John Aldis, B.F.
Sarcasm is just one more service we offer.


Crowfoot

unread,
May 7, 2003, 10:06:17 PM5/7/03
to
In article <3ra69b.ms3.ln@alec>, al...@aleccawley.co.uk wrote:

> Jon wrote:
>
>
> > p.173 - hoggets - I'm not sure if any of the other strange words in
> > /Diseases of the Sheep/ actually mean anything, but I do know 'hogget'
> > is
> > Lowland Scots/ Northern English for a ewe.
>
> In Worcestershire, where my father kept sheep for a few years, a hogget
> was
> a sheep in its second year. A sheep is only a lamb in the year it is
> born,
> and the butchers only recognise lamb and mutton, so that sheep not
> intended
> for wool or breeding are slaughtered before they become hoggetts. But,
> acccording to the locals and the evidence as I tasted, hoggets yield more
> meat of equivalent quality to lamb.


>
> (Apologies to the vegiies around here).
>

> Actually, I am reasonable certain that "hog" was a generic term in
> certain
> areas for sheep. The name Howard comes from Hog-ward, which was a
> shepard,
> not a pig ward (pigs don't get warded because they don't wander over the
> hills).


Hmm. What about the name "Piggott"? Where does that fit in (or not)?

--
Crowfoot

Richard Eney

unread,
May 7, 2003, 11:47:32 PM5/7/03