Mort. Which Patrician?

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Brian Nisbet

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
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In <Pine.OSF.3.91.961021...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> writes:


<First bit snipped on the basis that I'm not going to make reference to it>

>This makes me think that V.'s first appearance is indeed in Sourcery, and
>that in that book he's a fairly young man near the beginning of his
>career as patrician (hence, perhaps, the fact that he misjudges the mood
>of the wizards so badly and ends up as a lizard).

Hmm, I'm not too sure about that. Mort is only book no. 4 and the first
few books were full of inconsistencies etc. The Granny Weatherwax who
appears in Equal Rites has changed by the time she gets to Wyrd Sisters.
And the background characters didn't become solid until later. The Disc
has changed a lot since the Colour of Magic and while the Patrician we
know and love now might be different in some ways to the original
Patrician it doesn't mean they can't be the same person.

Enjoy,
B.

--
Brian Nisbet B.F.
E-mail: Nis...@tcd.ie
Web: http://www2.tcd.ie/~nisbetb/
"Goblins may not be big, cuddly, fluffy or kind, but they are FUN!!!!!"

Victoria Martin

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
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I reread Mort this weekend for the first time in ages and was struck by
how unlikely it is that the Patrician mentioned there is in fact
Vetinari. I know conventional wisdom says he is, but this is based on
Terry's post to the effect that he's always thought of Vetinari as a
party animal, and which is not actually a refutation of the suggestion
that the Patrician in Mort is not Vetinari. There were three things that
particulalrly struck me: (i) the party is described as being given for
500 of the Patrician's friends. It's hard to imagine Vetinari describing
five people in A-M as his friend, let alone 500. (ii) He has a champion
race horse. This seems a little unlikely - it's hard to imagine Vetinari
whiling away his time on race courses, or adding to his personal fortune
by making wagers on his own horse (I know he has a private menagerie, but
that seems different from a race horse). (iii) He has a pet swamp dragon.
In Sourcery he has a different pet, Wuffles, who, we are told, is the only
living
creature he seems genuinely fond of. Wuffles is pretty ancient at this
point, so presumably would have been around at the time Mort takes place.
Wufffles himself is, I'll grant you, a most unlikely companion for
Vetinari but a swamp dragon seems even less likely. Besides, Wuffles
presumably has some sort of history (and he gets mentioned again in G!G!)
whereas the swamp dragon never reappears.

This makes me think that V.'s first appearance is indeed in Sourcery, and
that in that book he's a fairly young man near the beginning of his
career as patrician (hence, perhaps, the fact that he misjudges the mood
of the wizards so badly and ends up as a lizard).

Victoria

Paul Matthews

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
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On 21 Oct 1996 15:52:51 GMT, nis...@tcd.ie (Brian Nisbet) wrote:

>Hmm, I'm not too sure about that. Mort is only book no. 4 and the first
>few books were full of inconsistencies etc. The Granny Weatherwax who
>appears in Equal Rites has changed by the time she gets to Wyrd Sisters.
>And the background characters didn't become solid until later. The Disc
>has changed a lot since the Colour of Magic and while the Patrician we
>know and love now might be different in some ways to the original
>Patrician it doesn't mean they can't be the same person.
>

Could these changes in people be due to the strong magic field on the
disc?

Paul.

Gerd Aasen

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
to Victoria, Martin, sann...@ermin.ox.uk

I think you're right, Victoria. It does seem odd of Vetinari. In
addition, Ihave found another thing that indicates that he isn't the
Patrician. In "The Clour of Magic" the Patrician is presented eating
candied starfish!! which is pretty strange for a man described as just
eating "a thin slice of dry bread and drinking only boiled water". I
think that Vetinari became Parician after dealing (or rather: not
dealig) with the plague of rats mentioned somewhere.

Terence


Victoria Martin

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Oct 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/22/96
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On 21 Oct 1996, Brian Nisbet wrote:

> Hmm, I'm not too sure about that. Mort is only book no. 4 and the first
> few books were full of inconsistencies etc. The Granny Weatherwax who
> appears in Equal Rites has changed by the time she gets to Wyrd Sisters.
> And the background characters didn't become solid until later. The Disc
> has changed a lot since the Colour of Magic and while the Patrician we
> know and love now might be different in some ways to the original
> Patrician it doesn't mean they can't be the same person.
>

Ach, who is this person who gains pleasure from puncturing the balloon
of fanciful interpretation with mundane mechanical explanations? Of
*course* you are right. Moreover, I suspect that if Terry does ever get
round to writing the book I'm *really* waiting for, the so-called
prequel, then we will discover that not only is the Patrician in Mort
Vetinari but so is the one in TCOM (judging by his posts on the subject,
Terry was envisaging Rincewind enrolling at UU at about the time Vetinari
was taking over A-M). Then we'll all just have to shrug our shoulders and
say things like "Well, conceptions change over time, those were early
books, nothing was really settled then, characters develop", but it won't
be any *fun*. I thought I'd better get my oar in while I still can. But
if you prefer, I can re-express my original claim in such a manner that it
does not offend against pragmatism:

The identification of the Patrician of Ankh-Morpork with Havelock Vetinari
does not appear to take place until Sourcery. Although a Patrician
features in the earlier books the characteristic traits associated with
Vetinari are not developed until Sourcery, where the name is also used
for the first time.

Okay?

Further evidence that TP's conception of the Patrician had not yet
crystallised into the figure of Vetinari is the explicit mention given to
the head torturer in Mort, who otherwise does not feature at all.
Vetinari undoubtedly has members of staff who prepare scorpion pits etc.,
but whoever they are, they do not seem to enjoy particulalrly high status.

Victoria

Geoff Mordock

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
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Brian Nisbet wrote:
>
> In <Pine.OSF.3.91.961021...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> writes:
>
> <First bit snipped on the basis that I'm not going to make reference to it>
>
> >This makes me think that V.'s first appearance is indeed in Sourcery, and
> >that in that book he's a fairly young man near the beginning of his
> >career as patrician (hence, perhaps, the fact that he misjudges the mood
> >of the wizards so badly and ends up as a lizard).
>
> Hmm, I'm not too sure about that. Mort is only book no. 4 and the first
> few books were full of inconsistencies etc. The Granny Weatherwax who
> appears in Equal Rites has changed by the time she gets to Wyrd Sisters.
> And the background characters didn't become solid until later. The Disc
> has changed a lot since the Colour of Magic and while the Patrician we
> know and love now might be different in some ways to the original
> Patrician it doesn't mean they can't be the same person.
>
> Enjoy,
> B.
>
> --
> Brian Nisbet B.F.
> E-mail: Nis...@tcd.ie
> Web: http://www2.tcd.ie/~nisbetb/
> "Goblins may not be big, cuddly, fluffy or kind, but they are FUN!!!!!"

I wonder how much time there is in between Mort and Sourcery...I mean,
how much time has passed on the disc. It is plain that Partrician V. is
responsible for making A-M what it is today (like my history teacher
said about Christopher Columbus: He was a great man...this in no way
implies that he was a good man.) If the Partician in Mort is a
different one, would Partician V. had time to make all those changes?
The man is good, but not that good.

Ross Smith

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
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Geoff Mordock wrote:
>
> I wonder how much time there is in between Mort and Sourcery...I mean,
> how much time has passed on the disc.

Well, there's the infamous Missing Fifteen Years ... and we know that at
least seventeen years (Susan's age) (and nine months, presumably) must
have passed between the end of _Mort_ and the beginning of _Soul Music_.
The whole Discworld saga so far must span at least a couple of decades
(shich leads to some awkward questions about Rincewind's age).

On a related note, there's _Small Gods_. Terry has said that the
publication order of the books is the same as their chronological order,
but since SG spans just over a hundred years, obviously a slight
exception must be made for it. There's a reference in FOC to the events
of SG as historical, and the Librarian's visit to Ephebe is explicitly
associated with time travel, so I tend to think that the *end* of SG
fits into the series in its nominal place (between WA and L&L), with the
bulk of the book happening a hundred years before the others.

--
Ross Smith (Wellington, New Zealand) ...... <mailto:al...@netlink.co.nz>
......... <http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/3699/> ..........
"The duke had a mind that ticked like a clock and, like a clock, it
regularly went cuckoo." -- Terry Pratchett (Wyrd Sisters)

CyberCat

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
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In one of the earlier messages in this thread[1] somebody said one of
the reasons the patrician in Mort wasn't lord V. was that he couldn't
see V having a racehorse.

However, he has *several*.

M@A, corgi edition, p 76:
"... Lord Vetinari never changed or destroyed anything if there was no
logical reason to do so. He maintained the little zoo and the
racehorse stable, ..."

Michel

[1] I'd already deleted the message before I happened to read that
page of M@A and my provider keeps messages for one or two days only.
--
"Over the years I have made many friends. My enemies made themselves."
Terry Pratchett at the DWCon 96. E-mail: Cybe...@introweb.nl
I don't understand why Merkins always want a rite to bare arms.
I always say "Just roll up your sleeves and be done with it."


Gordon Steemson

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
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Cybe...@introweb.nl (CyberCat) writes:

>In one of the earlier messages in this thread[1] somebody said one of
>the reasons the patrician in Mort wasn't lord V. was that he couldn't
>see V having a racehorse.

>However, he has *several*.

>M@A, corgi edition, p 76:
>"... Lord Vetinari never changed or destroyed anything if there was no
>logical reason to do so. He maintained the little zoo and the
>racehorse stable, ..."

Not only that, but in Sourcery, Conina the Wonder Thief is described as
having stolen, among other things, the 'silver shoes from the Patrician's
best racehorse while it was in the process of winning a race'. So not
only does he have at least two racehorses, at least one of those horses
was shod in silver! (Even if Vetinari was new in S., Conina is described
as being a recent arrival in Ankh-Morpork, and so the theft couldn't have
been carried out much earlier than the story.)

Just my 2c worth.

GtM (gste...@sfu.ca)

--
Unclear on the Concept, No. 1:
When one arranges a death by poisoning, it is not usually necessary to
boil the water first.

Zara Baxter

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
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There should be a relatively easy way to tell that Lord Vetinari is the
Patrician in Mort.

Didn't our beloved Havelock V. install the guild system in Ankh-Morpork?

If we find a guild mentioned in the book, then, it should be sometime
during Veinaris reign..

Anything else is cheating by Pterry ;)

Silky


Victoria Martin

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
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On 23 Oct 1996, Zara Baxter wrote:

>
> There should be a relatively easy way to tell that Lord Vetinari is the
> Patrician in Mort.
>
> Didn't our beloved Havelock V. install the guild system in Ankh-Morpork?
>
> If we find a guild mentioned in the book, then, it should be sometime
> during Veinaris reign..


No, doesn't work. The Guild system wasn't set up by Vetinari, it was just
modified. Even the Thieves Guild led a shadowy illegal existence and the
the Assassins have a rather unclear history, but have certainly been
around for a long time.

Victoria

David Keaveny

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
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A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Victoria Martin
<sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote

>
>I reread Mort this weekend for the first time in ages and was struck by
>how unlikely it is that the Patrician mentioned there is in fact
>Vetinari. I know conventional wisdom says he is, but this is based on
>Terry's post to the effect that he's always thought of Vetinari as a
>party animal, and which is not actually a refutation of the suggestion
>that the Patrician in Mort is not Vetinari. There were three things that
>particulalrly struck me: (i) the party is described as being given for
>500 of the Patrician's friends. It's hard to imagine Vetinari describing
>five people in A-M as his friend, let alone 500. (ii) He has a champion

I think anyone in their right sense of mind would want to describe
themselves as a 'friend' of the Patrician. Only a brave (read 'foolish')
man would publicly call himself an enemy.- and if not brave, then with a
long-lasting love of being tied upside down over the scorpion pit.

>race horse. This seems a little unlikely - it's hard to imagine Vetinari
>whiling away his time on race courses, or adding to his personal fortune
>by making wagers on his own horse (I know he has a private menagerie, but
>that seems different from a race horse). (iii) He has a pet swamp dragon.

--
David Keaveny http://www.keaveny.demon.co.uk

\\\
\\\\\\__o "Life is like a sewer - what you get out of it depends on
\\\\\\'/ what you put into it" - Tom Lehrer

David Keaveny

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
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A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Gerd Aasen
<gera...@online.no> wrote

This one I am certain about. I seem to remember he is described as being
quite a large man (tho' I can't check, as someone as borrowed it and
lives at the other end of the country), so either it is not he, or he
has just released a top-selling diet book.

Geoff Mordock

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
to

Was the librarian's visit linked to time travel? I didn't get that. I
thought he used L-Space to travel through space, not necissarily time.
I always assumed that the main part of SG took place at roughly the same
time as the other novels...with FOC maybe happening a few years
afterwards (enough time for Brutha to force the people to calm down.)

Dick Eney

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
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David Keaveny <da...@keaveny.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Gerd Aasen <gera...@online.no> wrote: <snip>

>>Patrician. In "The Clour of Magic" the Patrician is presented eating
>>candied starfish!! which is pretty strange for a man described as just
>>eating "a thin slice of dry bread and drinking only boiled water". I
>>think that Vetinari became Parician after dealing (or rather: not
>>dealig) with the plague of rats mentioned somewhere.
>
>This one I am certain about. I seem to remember he is described as being
>quite a large man (tho' I can't check, as someone as borrowed it and
>lives at the other end of the country), so either it is not he, or he
>has just released a top-selling diet book.

I'm not sure his body is described; he is described as having thick
fingers with a lot of rings on them, so either his hands got thinner and
he gave up the rings, or he just isn't the same man. Since he also
doesn't know Rincewind or the Luggage later on (IT), presumably the
current Patrician came into power after Rincewind's time in Ankh-Morpork.

=Tamar (sharing account dick...@access.digex.net)

Victoria Martin

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Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to


On 23 Oct 1996, Gordon Steemson wrote:

> Cybe...@introweb.nl (CyberCat) writes:
>
> >In one of the earlier messages in this thread[1] somebody said one of
> >the reasons the patrician in Mort wasn't lord V. was that he couldn't
> >see V having a racehorse.
>
> >However, he has *several*.
>
> >M@A, corgi edition, p 76:
> >"... Lord Vetinari never changed or destroyed anything if there was no
> >logical reason to do so. He maintained the little zoo and the
> >racehorse stable, ..."

Good point. Okay, I withdraw the racehorse part of the objection.


>
> Not only that, but in Sourcery, Conina the Wonder Thief is described as
> having stolen, among other things, the 'silver shoes from the Patrician's
> best racehorse while it was in the process of winning a race'. So not
> only does he have at least two racehorses, at least one of those horses
> was shod in silver! (Even if Vetinari was new in S., Conina is described
> as being a recent arrival in Ankh-Morpork, and so the theft couldn't have
> been carried out much earlier than the story.)

Gosh, either I'm going to have to back down completely or wriggle my way
out of this somehow. The whole racehorse business still doesn't seem very
Vetinari-like to me, but he obviously did have not just one but several.
How to explain this? The only thing I can think of is the reference to
Bloody Stupid Johnson's landscaped gardens in IT, where it says somethng
to the effect that the Patrician didn't believe in destroying things
unnecessarily, so he kept them, even though he wasn't really a garden
sort of person ( I 'spect Helen has the exact reference...). Perhaps he
felt the same about racehorses (and their shoes). Yes, I like this,
because it still suggests that he's relatively new in Sourcery, otherwise
the racehorses would all have got too old to race and been retired.

Victoria

Andrew Tubb

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Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

>Well, there's the infamous Missing Fifteen Years ... and we know that at
>least seventeen years (Susan's age) (and nine months, presumably) must
>have passed between the end of _Mort_ and the beginning of _Soul Music_.
>The whole Discworld saga so far must span at least a couple of decades
>(shich leads to some awkward questions about Rincewind's age).
>
That depends on whether or not you think he aged while he was belting
around the dungeon dimensions for an indeterminate length of time before
Eric!

Adrian Hurt

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Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.961021...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> writes:
>
>I reread Mort this weekend for the first time in ages and was struck by
>how unlikely it is that the Patrician mentioned there is in fact
>Vetinari. I know conventional wisdom says he is, but this is based on
>Terry's post to the effect that he's always thought of Vetinari as a
>party animal, and which is not actually a refutation of the suggestion
>that the Patrician in Mort is not Vetinari. There were three things that
>particulalrly struck me: (i) the party is described as being given for
>500 of the Patrician's friends. It's hard to imagine Vetinari describing
>five people in A-M as his friend, let alone 500. (ii) He has a champion
>race horse. This seems a little unlikely - it's hard to imagine Vetinari
>whiling away his time on race courses, or adding to his personal fortune
>by making wagers on his own horse (I know he has a private menagerie, but
>that seems different from a race horse). (iii) He has a pet swamp dragon.
>In Sourcery he has a different pet, Wuffles, who, we are told, is the only
>living
>creature he seems genuinely fond of.

(i) Put it like this. If you were one of the 500 people who received an
invitation, would *you* class yourself as one of the people of A-M who
were not among Vetinari's friends? Besides, in other books you only
see the Patrician while he's at work. I don't know about you, but my
behaviour at work is not the same as my behaviour at parties.

(ii) He's not a rider, he's an owner. He probably doesn't encourage racing
for his own personal benefit, but as a form of entertainment for the citizens.
Bread and circuses, etc.

(iii) By the time of Sourcery, Wuffles may very well be the only living
creature he is fond of, bearing in mind that during Mort, the swamp dragon
showed every intention of running away. The point is that Vetinari is
capable of being fond of a pet; by the time of Sourcery, it's a different
pet. And who says Vetinari got Wuffles as a puppy?

--
"Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott

Adrian Hurt | JANET: adr...@cee.hw.ac.uk
UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian | ARPA: adr...@cee.hw.ac.uk

Colm Buckley

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Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

> == Ross Smith <al...@netlink.co.nz>

> Well, there's the infamous Missing Fifteen Years ... and we know that at
> least seventeen years (Susan's age) (and nine months, presumably) must
> have passed between the end of _Mort_ and the beginning of _Soul Music_.
> The whole Discworld saga so far must span at least a couple of decades
> (shich leads to some awkward questions about Rincewind's age).

Not nesse-celery. Rincewind spent an unspecified amount of time in the
Dungeon Dimensions, and a short time in Hell... who knows how quickly
time passes in these alternate planes?

Colm

--
Colm Buckley B.F. | EMail : Colm.B...@tcd.ie or co...@lspace.org
Computer Science | WWW : http://isg.cs.tcd.ie/cbuckley/
Trinity College | Phone : +353 87 469146 (087-469146 within Ireland)
Dublin 2, Ireland | "Microsoft : Where do you want to crash today?"


Clem

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Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

In article <tWGKBIAZ...@keaveny.demon.co.uk>, David Keaveny
<da...@keaveny.demon.co.uk> writes:

> A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Gerd Aasen
> <gera...@online.no> wrote

>>In "The Colour of Magic" the Patrician is presented eating

>>candied starfish!! which is pretty strange for a man described as just
>>eating "a thin slice of dry bread and drinking only boiled water".
>

> This one I am certain about. I seem to remember he is described as being
> quite a large man (tho' I can't check, as someone as borrowed it and
> lives at the other end of the country), so either it is not he, or he
> has just released a top-selling diet book.

Rather like Nigel Lawson then? I was quite astonished to see him on
TV the other day loooking so gaunt and thin. I can't really say though
that he looks any healthier - more like some kind of ancient exhumed
corpse.

Clem

Brian Nisbet

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Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

>Ach, who is this person who gains pleasure from puncturing the balloon
>of fanciful interpretation with mundane mechanical explanations? Of
>*course* you are right. Moreover, I suspect that if Terry does ever get
>round to writing the book I'm *really* waiting for, the so-called
>prequel, then we will discover that not only is the Patrician in Mort
>Vetinari but so is the one in TCOM (judging by his posts on the subject,
>Terry was envisaging Rincewind enrolling at UU at about the time Vetinari
>was taking over A-M). Then we'll all just have to shrug our shoulders and
>say things like "Well, conceptions change over time, those were early
>books, nothing was really settled then, characters develop", but it won't
>be any *fun*. I thought I'd better get my oar in while I still can. But
>if you prefer, I can re-express my original claim in such a manner that it
>does not offend against pragmatism:

>The identification of the Patrician of Ankh-Morpork with Havelock Vetinari
>does not appear to take place until Sourcery. Although a Patrician
>features in the earlier books the characteristic traits associated with
>Vetinari are not developed until Sourcery, where the name is also used
>for the first time.

>Okay?

Yeah, of course OK. I didn't set out to puncture any of your ballons but
you posted a theory and I responded. I don't really apologise for my
statements but I do think you slightly overreacted to my answer.

>Further evidence that TP's conception of the Patrician had not yet
>crystallised into the figure of Vetinari is the explicit mention given to
>the head torturer in Mort, who otherwise does not feature at all.
>Vetinari undoubtedly has members of staff who prepare scorpion pits etc.,
>but whoever they are, they do not seem to enjoy particulalrly high status.

The DiscWorld books are full of hidden people and people who change.
Every so often a character pops out of nowhere and then returns to that
dark place. I'm terribly sorry if this smacks of pragmatism or literary
criticism, but there you go.

Boylard

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Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

>
> I wonder how much time there is in between Mort and Sourcery...I mean,

> how much time has passed on the disc. It is plain that Partrician V. is
> responsible for making A-M what it is today (like my history teacher
> said about Christopher Columbus: He was a great man...this in no way
> implies that he was a good man.) If the Partician in Mort is a
> different one, would Partician V. had time to make all those changes?
> The man is good, but not that good.
>

I have no proof of this but weren't there guilds in the books before Mort?
If there were than this means Vetinari must have been the patrician because
he was the one who set up the guilds wasn't he?

--
Boylard
dan...@white.prestel.co.uk


Sarah Bonnett

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Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

nis...@tcd.ie (Brian Nisbet) wrote:


><First bit snipped on the basis that I'm not going to make reference to it>

<second bit snipped as well, because I can't be arsed>


The Disc >has changed a lot since the Colour of Magic and while the
Patrician we
>know and love now might be different in some ways to the original
>Patrician it doesn't mean they can't be the same person.

>Enjoy,
>B.

This is one of the things I like very much about Pterry's books. His
characters evolve, as do the people reading them. His writing style
evolves with them, banana, lemon tree, pint of lager, waffle.

YKWIM??


Sarah

Victoria Martin

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Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to


On Wed, 23 Oct 1996, David Keaveny wrote:

> A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Victoria Martin
> <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote


> >
(i) the party is described as being given for
> >500 of the Patrician's friends. It's hard to imagine Vetinari describing
> >five people in A-M as his friend, let alone 500.
>

> I think anyone in their right sense of mind would want to describe
> themselves as a 'friend' of the Patrician. Only a brave (read 'foolish')
> man would publicly call himself an enemy.


Sure, but since it was described as 'a party for 500 of the Patrician's
friends' and not 'for 500 of the Patrician's "friends"' this suggests to me
that they are friends from his point of view, not from theirs. There
doesn't seem to be any irony in the use of the term 'friends' here.

victoria

Your Name Here

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Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

In article <01bbc108$4ff0c960$LocalHost@prsncpcr>, "Boylard" <dan...@white.prestel.co.uk> says:

Mort takes place after The Colour of Magic, and the Patrician is in
The COlour of Magic.

mabb

Tony Finch

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Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

On the other hand, the Guilds of TCOM are not quite the fully formed
guilds that the citizens know and are ripped off by in the later
books. They are mentioned, yes, but they seem to be a lot less
manipulated than they are under HV.

FTony.

Victoria Martin

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Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to


On 24 Oct 1996, Colm Buckley wrote:

> > == Ross Smith <al...@netlink.co.nz>


>
> > The whole Discworld saga so far must span at least a couple of decades
> > (shich leads to some awkward questions about Rincewind's age).
>
> Not nesse-celery. Rincewind spent an unspecified amount of time in the
> Dungeon Dimensions, and a short time in Hell... who knows how quickly
> time passes in these alternate planes?

Even if it's the same as Disc time, that needn't matter much. IIRC we
learn in IT that Rincewind never actually graduated, so he could well be
student age in TCOM - say about 20 - which would make him in his forties
in IT. I don't remember anything
about his behaviour in either of those books which is inconsistent with
those ages (or, for that matter, with any age in between - he's not as
old as Cohen nor as young as Coin, but apart from that his age seems
largely immaterial).

Victoria

Geoff Mordock

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

Maybe I am wrong with this, but I can see the Partrician liking race
horses...I mean, they go in one direction, as fast as they can, and
never even consider turing back or looking around at the other lanes

Geoff Mordock

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to Your Name Here

But I think the question here is if it is the same Patrician...it has
been said that there were other Partricians before V.

Kedamono

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

In article <326EE6...@erols.com>, Geoff Mordock <gmor...@erols.com> wrote:

> Ross Smith wrote:
> >
> > Geoff Mordock wrote:
> > >

> > > I wonder how much time there is in between Mort and Sourcery...I mean,
> > > how much time has passed on the disc.
> >

> > Well, there's the infamous Missing Fifteen Years ... and we know that at
> > least seventeen years (Susan's age) (and nine months, presumably) must
> > have passed between the end of _Mort_ and the beginning of _Soul Music_.

> > The whole Discworld saga so far must span at least a couple of decades
> > (shich leads to some awkward questions about Rincewind's age).
>

> Was the librarian's visit linked to time travel? I didn't get that. I
> thought he used L-Space to travel through space, not necissarily time.
> I always assumed that the main part of SG took place at roughly the same
> time as the other novels...with FOC maybe happening a few years
> afterwards (enough time for Brutha to force the people to calm down.)

Speaking of the Librarian...If the above timeline is more or less correct,
then how old is the Librarian? In human form, I don't see a spring chicken
in charge of UU's dangerous library, in fact a wizard of some skill would
be needed. So let's put the Librarian's human age at 40 or 50 at most.[1]
So, if we take the 15 years add them to Susan's 17, toss in about 3 or 4
more years for post SM stories, and we get a mon...orangutang of about 75
to 85 years of age! The Librarian shows no signs of slowing down, and is
still in full vigor as seen in Maskerade. What of the Librarian?

[1]If he's too old he ends up as an interesting appendix to
_Thorton's_Guide_to_meta-stable_Thaumatic_compounds_.

--
Kedamono
I'm now on Concentric as well as on AOL
Two for the price of One!
Keda...@concentric.net or Keda...@aol.com
----------------------
Take a look at the Alternate History Travel Guides!
http://users.aol.com/kedamono/sliders/alterguides.html

Midnight Tree Bandit

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

In the last episode, we saw Victoria Martin say:

>No, doesn't work. The Guild system wasn't set up by Vetinari, it was just
>modified. Even the Thieves Guild led a shadowy illegal existence and the
>the Assassins have a rather unclear history, but have certainly been
>around for a long time.

And don't forget that it is strongly hinted in FoC that Vetinari was a student
of the Assassassassassassassins Guild, which supports the statement to that
effect in the DwC Which makes me wonder... did Pterry add that to satisfy
those wondering about the entry in the DwC, or had it already been planned?
Or did he snag a copy of FoC through L-Space while working on the DwC so that
he would know?

-=><=-

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Midnight Tree Bandit | happy tune in time with irresponsibility
mtba...@mindspring.com | i'm dancing on the muddy slope of financial security
100000 Driuds have been | and squandering cheerfully my nicey-nice conformity
known to get it wrong! | i've fallen out the window of opportunity (m cadell)

Peter Bleackley

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

In the guildhouse, (Tony Finch) writes:
|>
|> On the other hand, the Guilds of TCOM are not quite the fully formed
|> guilds that the citizens know and are ripped off by in the later
|> books. They are mentioned, yes, but they seem to be a lot less
|> manipulated than they are under HV.
|>
The Assassins' Guild, in particular, is nothing but a band of
cutthroats (minus saussages-inna-bun) in The Colour of Magic. In
Pyramids, they claim to have a long and noble history. I considered
that this might be an outright lie, but M@A seems to back it up.
Possibly there was a period of Chaos and Anarchy in Ankh-Morpork under
the rule of the Fat Patrician, during which undesirable elements
gained control over the Guild, and lowered the tone of things. (Note
that this is written from the Assassins' point of view. From the point
of view of the Watch, say, and most normal people, the Assassins are
still a band of cutthroats, but highly paid cutthroats with good
manners and impeccable dress sense).
I personally think that the Fat Patrician died in the great fire of
Ankh-Morpork. It seems like a logical way of disposing of him, and it
explains why Rincewind and Twoflower weren't wanted men when they
returned to Ankh-Morpork.

--
~PETE "QUANTUM" BLEACKLEY~
Daleks! Repent of your evil ways, and live in peace as plumbers!
X-Ray Astronomy Group University of Leicester
p...@star.le.ac.uk ~ Website coming soon

Peter Bleackley

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

In Ephebe, Ross Smith writes:
|>
|> On a related note, there's _Small Gods_. Terry has said that the
|> publication order of the books is the same as their chronological order,
|> but since SG spans just over a hundred years, obviously a slight
|> exception must be made for it. There's a reference in FOC to the events
|> of SG as historical, and the Librarian's visit to Ephebe is explicitly
|> associated with time travel, so I tend to think that the *end* of SG
|> fits into the series in its nominal place (between WA and L&L), with the
|> bulk of the book happening a hundred years before the others.

If the events of Small Gods are contempory with the rest of the series,
and Brutha's death happens 100 years later (Cause of death: prophesy
overdose), then the Librarian doesn't need to travel in time, only in
space. There are two ways that he could have known about the fire.
1) He works in the Unseen University. He probably has a few friends with
advanced precognitive abilities.
2) He was working in a remote part of the library at the time and smelt
smoke.
As for the rescued books turning up later, well, in the UU library, it
would be a while before anybody else found them (the UU library probably
being designed to facilitate the process of picking up something
interesting while you were looking for something else- a very wizardly way
of working.).

Mark Syddall

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

Victoria Martin wrote:

>
> On 25 Oct 1996, Peter Bleackley wrote:
>
> > The Assassins' Guild, in particular, is nothing but a band of
> > cutthroats (minus saussages-inna-bun) in The Colour of Magic.
>
> And the Theives' Guild doesn't seem to exist, IIRC.
>
> Victoria

What about the scene in the Broken Drum, just before the great
fire of A-M breaks out? The head thief and the head assassin are
discussing Twoflower, yesno? So, perhaps there was some kind of
organisation at that point. Though it is hard to imagine Dr Cruces
being quite so civil with a mere thief.

Mark

Jane Hodson

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

Victoria Martin spake thus:

>
>On 25 Oct 1996, Peter Bleackley wrote:
>
>> The Assassins' Guild, in particular, is nothing but a band of
>> cutthroats (minus saussages-inna-bun) in The Colour of Magic.
>
>And the Theives' Guild doesn't seem to exist, IIRC.
>
>> In
>> Pyramids, they claim to have a long and noble history. I considered
>> that this might be an outright lie, but M@A seems to back it up.
>>
>Again, i suppose this could depend on how one views the status of the
>Guild. It might have existed but been illegal (rather like the Freemasons
>at various periods of time). On the other hand, if Vetinari was sent to
>the Assassins' School, then it must have been in legal existence during
>his youth and probably for quite a while before that.
>
How about this:

The Assassins' Guild has indeed existed for a very long time. It is the ideal
profession for younger sons of the nobility, and is based upon earning large
sums of money. Furthermore, the Assassins' guild is self-limiting in that only
the very rich can afford to use it. Hence, it doesn't threaten the fabric of
society, and has an acceptable patina of nobility and money to it. Vetinari's
real stroke of genius was that, having attended the Assassins' school, he
applied the same principles to thieves. Thieving is lower class and is all
about those with no money taking it from those who do. Lots of lower class
oiks, threat to the fabric of society, no respect for the upper classes etc.
However, by setting an acceptable level of crime and making the Thieves' Guild
responsible for it, Vetinari succeeded in making the Thieves' Guild all about
aspiring to a respectable place in society, as well as self-regulating.

Vetinari did not create the Guild System he just made it work in new and
interesting ways.

Jane Hodson


Victoria Martin

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to


On 25 Oct 1996, Peter Bleackley wrote:

> The Assassins' Guild, in particular, is nothing but a band of
> cutthroats (minus saussages-inna-bun) in The Colour of Magic.

And the Theives' Guild doesn't seem to exist, IIRC.

> In
> Pyramids, they claim to have a long and noble history. I considered
> that this might be an outright lie, but M@A seems to back it up.
>
Again, i suppose this could depend on how one views the status of the
Guild. It might have existed but been illegal (rather like the Freemasons
at various periods of time). On the other hand, if Vetinari was sent to
the Assassins' School, then it must have been in legal existence during
his youth and probably for quite a while before that.

> I personally think that the Fat Patrician died in the great fire of


> Ankh-Morpork. It seems like a logical way of disposing of him, and it
> explains why Rincewind and Twoflower weren't wanted men when they
> returned to Ankh-Morpork.
>

Or he could have been done in by the Star People. That was certainly a
period of chaos and anarchy when many things might have changed.

Victoria


Dick Eney

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

In article <54q2i1$a...@falcon.le.ac.uk>,

Peter Bleackley <p...@ltsun6.star.le.ac.uk> wrote:
>In Ephebe, Ross Smith writes:
>|>
>|> On a related note, there's _Small Gods_. Terry has said that the
>|> publication order of the books is the same as their chronological order,
>|> but since SG spans just over a hundred years, obviously a slight
>|> exception must be made for it. There's a reference in FOC to the events
>|> of SG as historical, and the Librarian's visit to Ephebe is explicitly
>|> associated with time travel, so I tend to think that the *end* of SG
>|> fits into the series in its nominal place (between WA and L&L), with the
>|> bulk of the book happening a hundred years before the others.
>
>If the events of Small Gods are contempory with the rest of the series,
>and Brutha's death happens 100 years later (Cause of death: prophesy
>overdose), then the Librarian doesn't need to travel in time, only in
>space. There are two ways that he could have known about the fire.
>1) He works in the Unseen University. He probably has a few friends with
>advanced precognitive abilities.
>2) He was working in a remote part of the library at the time and smelt
>smoke.
>As for the rescued books turning up later, well, in the UU library, it
>would be a while before anybody else found them (the UU library probably
>being designed to facilitate the process of picking up something
>interesting while you were looking for something else- a very wizardly way
>of working.).

Could the events of SG _bridge_ the rest of the series? That is, during
FoC the missionaries are at work, but Brutha might still be alive. He
doesn't travel, after all, and he never actually visited Ankh-Morpork.
The fire would then have been as little as 20 or as much as 80 years ago,
and the Librarian would have had time to hear about it normally and still
have to go back in time to rescue books.

Though I dislike the thought that Brutha would have sent out missionaries,
he was actually quite strong in his faith. Maybe he couldn't stop them
going and just required that they be nonviolent.

=Tamar (sharing account dick...@access.digex.net)

Terry Pratchett

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to


Here's what I think, for what it's worth:

Rincewind has been bounced around Time and Space for so long that
there's no knowing how he has aged, if he has physically aged at all
(although he's clearly a bit more mature in IT).

The age of the Librarian. Well, orangutans have been known to live to
about 30, and humans to c. 114. But wizards live longer. And who knows
how these facts combined in the case of the Librarian? He might live
as long as a human *and* an orangutan put together.

I'm pretty certain that the same Patrician was in all the books. Let's
look at it like this:

*Some* guilds are very old (the Beggars and the Assassins). Vetinari
merely encouraged them and helped the thieves, hitherto a loose
association of gangs, form their own Guild.

He's clearly lost weigh and got more austere. It must be the pressure.

As for racehorses and so on -- Vetinari is not the first Patrician, and
no doubt the earlier ones, like Lord Snapcase, were often crazed, greedy
and acquisitive. So he has inherited all sorts of things. But he
doesn't change anything without a reason.

Terry Pratchett

Gordon Steemson

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

Mark Syddall <mts...@novell3.bham.ac.uk> writes:

>Victoria Martin wrote:
>>
>> On 25 Oct 1996, Peter Bleackley wrote:
>>
>> > The Assassins' Guild, in particular, is nothing but a band of
>> > cutthroats (minus saussages-inna-bun) in The Colour of Magic.
>>
>> And the Theives' Guild doesn't seem to exist, IIRC.

>What about the scene in the Broken Drum, just before the great


>fire of A-M breaks out? The head thief and the head assassin are
>discussing Twoflower, yesno? So, perhaps there was some kind of
>organisation at that point. Though it is hard to imagine Dr Cruces
>being quite so civil with a mere thief.

The head of the Assassins (hey, there's another word it's hard to stop
spelling!) in TCOM was Zlorf Flannelfoot, who--though possessed of a
certain style--was definitely not particularly upper-class, and also he
was killed in the tavern brawl, IIRC. This seems out of character for
the head of a violent guild, but there you are.

I am probably wrong about his dying in the tavern brawl, but I think the
rest of it is sound. Anyone got anything to add here?

GtM (gste...@sfu.ca)

--
Unclear on the Concept, No. 1:
When one arranges a death by poisoning, it is not usually necessary to
boil the water first.

Andrew Janssen

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

Kedamono wrote:

<snipped>


> Speaking of the Librarian...If the above timeline is more or less correct,
> then how old is the Librarian? In human form, I don't see a spring chicken
> in charge of UU's dangerous library, in fact a wizard of some skill would
> be needed. So let's put the Librarian's human age at 40 or 50 at most.[1]
> So, if we take the 15 years add them to Susan's 17, toss in about 3 or 4
> more years for post SM stories, and we get a mon...orangutang of about 75
> to 85 years of age! The Librarian shows no signs of slowing down, and is
> still in full vigor as seen in Maskerade. What of the Librarian?

Well, it appears (from Windle Poons) that one of the advantages of being a wizard is
a rather longer lifespan. Since the Library is just crackling with magical energy and
is something of a spatial/temporal anomaly, maybe the Librarian's normal aging processes
are retarded by all that raw magic.

> [1]If he's too old he ends up as an interesting appendix to
> _Thorton's_Guide_to_meta-stable_Thaumatic_compounds_.
>
> --
> Kedamono
> I'm now on Concentric as well as on AOL
> Two for the price of One!
> Keda...@concentric.net or Keda...@aol.com
> ----------------------
> Take a look at the Alternate History Travel Guides!
> http://users.aol.com/kedamono/sliders/alterguides.html

--
Andrew D. Janssen
----------------------------------------------
If you like J.R.R. Tolkien |
check out ElendorMUSH at |
--< elendor.sbs.nau.com:1893 >-- |
-----------------------------------------------

"You would prefer another target? A military target? Then name the system!"

--Grand Moff Tarkin

Peter Wilson

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

Your Name Here wrote:
>
> In article <01bbc108$4ff0c960$LocalHost@prsncpcr>, "Boylard" <dan...@white.prestel.co.uk> says:
>
> Mort takes place after The Colour of Magic, and the Patrician is in
> The COlour of Magic.
>
> mabb

Mort takes place before The Light Fantastic because Twoflower teaches
Mort Wier or Dam on the astral journey.

-----------------------------------------
_
/ \ eter
\_/ , /
\ /| /
\/ |/ ilson
'

Alex Burr

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

In article <kedamono-241...@cnc096100.concentric.net>,

Kedamono <keda...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Speaking of the Librarian...If the above timeline is more or less correct,
>then how old is the Librarian? In human form, I don't see a spring chicken
>in charge of UU's dangerous library, in fact a wizard of some skill would
>be needed. So let's put the Librarian's human age at 40 or 50 at most.[1]
>So, if we take the 15 years add them to Susan's 17, toss in about 3 or 4
>more years for post SM stories, and we get a mon...orangutang of about 75
>to 85 years of age! The Librarian shows no signs of slowing down, and is
>still in full vigor as seen in Maskerade. What of the Librarian?

So, the transformation is into a _young_ orang-utan.

Alex Burr

Ben of Bens

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

p...@ltsun6.star.le.ac.uk (Peter Bleackley) wrote:
>In the guildhouse, (Tony Finch) writes:
>|>
>|> On the other hand, the Guilds of TCOM are not quite the fully formed
>|> guilds that the citizens know and are ripped off by in the later
>|> books. They are mentioned, yes, but they seem to be a lot less
>|> manipulated than they are under HV.
>|>
>The Assassins' Guild, in particular, is nothing but a band of
>cutthroats (minus saussages-inna-bun) in The Colour of Magic. In

>Pyramids, they claim to have a long and noble history. I considered
>that this might be an outright lie, but M@A seems to back it up.
>Possibly there was a period of Chaos and Anarchy in Ankh-Morpork under
>the rule of the Fat Patrician, during which undesirable elements
>gained control over the Guild, and lowered the tone of things. (Note
>that this is written from the Assassins' point of view. From the point
>of view of the Watch, say, and most normal people, the Assassins are
>still a band of cutthroats, but highly paid cutthroats with good
>manners and impeccable dress sense).
>I personally think that the Fat Patrician died in the great fire of
>Ankh-Morpork. It seems like a logical way of disposing of him, and it
>explains why Rincewind and Twoflower weren't wanted men when they
>returned to Ankh-Morpork.

From a cetain point of view Twoflower and Rincewind didn't start the fire -
it was a result of uncontrolled guild rivalry.

More to the point the Watch in TCOM are definately a traditional style
Watch, as opposed to the Guards Guards flavour (who else thinks the
Sergeant in TCOM was Colon ?).

In the orginal discussions on the timeline (about a year and a half ago ?)
we ran into this problem. The timeline as formulated only has about 3
years (that's great years) between TCOM and M (AFAICR) and the Patrician in
M is Vetinari (PTerry has more or less said so) and has been there for ten
years. My theory was that the great fire radically altered his view of the
way things should be done. Also, if he was badly burned in the fire he
could well have lost a lot of weight, skin regeneration races through the
calories.

In all the recent timeline discussions I've not seen a full, updated
version. Has one found it's way into the archives yet ?

Ben

Victoria Martin

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to


On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Mark Syddall wrote:

> Victoria Martin wrote:
> >
> > And the Theives' Guild doesn't seem to exist, IIRC.
> >
>
> What about the scene in the Broken Drum, just before the great
> fire of A-M breaks out? The head thief and the head assassin are
> discussing Twoflower, yesno?

Ah, i clearly didn't recall correctly.

So, perhaps there was some kind of
> organisation at that point. Though it is hard to imagine Dr Cruces
> being quite so civil with a mere thief.

Maybe it isn't Dr Cruces. Or am I failing to recall another essential
detail? The fastidiousness of the Guild could have been the result of the
lengthy period of prosperity and order alluded to in FoC which allowed the
Guilds to take on their modern form.I daresay things were a lot more rough
and ready in the TCOM days.

Victoria


Dick Eney

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

Peter Wilson <wil...@a.crl.com> wrote:

>Your Name Here wrote:
>> "Boylard" <dan...@white.prestel.co.uk> says:
>> Mort takes place after The Colour of Magic, and the Patrician is in
>> The COlour of Magic.
>> mabb
>
>Mort takes place before The Light Fantastic because Twoflower teaches
>Mort Wier or Dam on the astral journey.

No, you're confusing Death (whose nickname is Mort) with Mort (whose
nickname is "boy"). When Death asks him what his name is, Mort says
"Mort" and Death says "WHAT A COINCIDENCE."

So _Mort_ takes place after _TLF_.

=Tamar

Andrew Janssen

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

Kedamono wrote:

<snipped>


> Speaking of the Librarian...If the above timeline is more or less correct,
> then how old is the Librarian? In human form, I don't see a spring chicken
> in charge of UU's dangerous library, in fact a wizard of some skill would
> be needed. So let's put the Librarian's human age at 40 or 50 at most.[1]
> So, if we take the 15 years add them to Susan's 17, toss in about 3 or 4
> more years for post SM stories, and we get a mon...orangutang of about 75
> to 85 years of age! The Librarian shows no signs of slowing down, and is
> still in full vigor as seen in Maskerade. What of the Librarian?

Well, it appears (from Windle Poons) that on

Geoff Mordock

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to Victoria Martin

Victoria Martin wrote:
>
> I reread Mort this weekend for the first time in ages and was struck by
> how unlikely it is that the Patrician mentioned there is in fact
> Vetinari. I know conventional wisdom says he is, but this is based on
> Terry's post to the effect that he's always thought of Vetinari as a
> party animal, and which is not actually a refutation of the suggestion
> that the Patrician in Mort is not Vetinari. There were three things that
> particulalrly struck me: (i) the party is described as being given for

> 500 of the Patrician's friends. It's hard to imagine Vetinari describing
> five people in A-M as his friend, let alone 500. (ii) He has a champion
> race horse. This seems a little unlikely - it's hard to imagine Vetinari
> whiling away his time on race courses, or adding to his personal fortune
> by making wagers on his own horse (I know he has a private menagerie, but
> that seems different from a race horse). (iii) He has a pet swamp dragon.
> In Sourcery he has a different pet, Wuffles, who, we are told, is the only
> living
> creature he seems genuinely fond of. Wuffles is pretty ancient at this
> point, so presumably would have been around at the time Mort takes place.
> Wufffles himself is, I'll grant you, a most unlikely companion for
> Vetinari but a swamp dragon seems even less likely. Besides, Wuffles
> presumably has some sort of history (and he gets mentioned again in G!G!)
> whereas the swamp dragon never reappears.
>
> This makes me think that V.'s first appearance is indeed in Sourcery, and
> that in that book he's a fairly young man near the beginning of his
> career as patrician (hence, perhaps, the fact that he misjudges the mood
> of the wizards so badly and ends up as a lizard).
>
> Victoria

Vimes sat down in the Patrician's chair. "Can you remember the last
Partician?"
"Old Lord Snapcase? And the one before him. Oh, yeah. Nasty
pieces of work, they were. At least this one didn't giggle or wear a
dress."
-Feet of Clay

If it wasn't Vetinari in Color of Magic, this statement puts a hole new
light on some of the scenes

Victoria Martin

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to


On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Ben of Bens wrote:

> In the orginal discussions on the timeline (about a year and a half ago ?)
> we ran into this problem. The timeline as formulated only has about 3
> years (that's great years) between TCOM and M (AFAICR) and the Patrician in
> M is Vetinari (PTerry has more or less said so) and has been there for ten
> years.

With the emphasis on "more or less". If you're thinking of the quote in
APF, all it actually says is that it's a mistake to assume that Vetinari
wouldn't throw extravangant parties. That's always been understood to mean
that Vetinari *is* the Patrician in Mort, but it's not definite. All
Terry's post says for certain is that the party alone isn't sufficient
grounds to conclude that it isn't Vetinari.

My theory was that the great fire radically altered his view of the
> way things should be done. Also, if he was badly burned in the fire he
> could well have lost a lot of weight, skin regeneration races through the
> calories.

And also underwent a major character transplant.Not to mention the chances
of surviving major burns in a place with doctors as lousy as those in A-M.

>
> In all the recent timeline discussions I've not seen a full, updated
> version. Has one found it's way into the archives yet ?
>

Someone posted one a few weeks back. It could be re-posted.

Victoria


Brian Nisbet

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
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>Victoria Martin wrote:
>>
>> On 25 Oct 1996, Peter Bleackley wrote:
>>

>> > The Assassins' Guild, in particular, is nothing but a band of
>> > cutthroats (minus saussages-inna-bun) in The Colour of Magic.
>>

>> And the Theives' Guild doesn't seem to exist, IIRC.
>>

>> Victoria

>What about the scene in the Broken Drum, just before the great
>fire of A-M breaks out? The head thief and the head assassin are

>discussing Twoflower, yesno? So, perhaps there was some kind of


>organisation at that point. Though it is hard to imagine Dr Cruces
>being quite so civil with a mere thief.

I always got the impression that the thieves in the Broken Drum were sort
of proto-thieves guild. They were at the top of all of the other
competing thieves gangs and shortly afterwards they were brought together
to form the Guild.

Enjoy,
B.

--
Brian Nisbet B.F.
E-mail: Nis...@tcd.ie
Web: http://www2.tcd.ie/~nisbetb/
"Goblins may not be big, cuddly, fluffy or kind, but they are FUN!!!!!"

Geoff Mordock

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to Andrew Janssen

Andrew Janssen wrote:
>
> Kedamono wrote:
>
> <snipped>
> > Speaking of the Librarian...If the above timeline is more or less correct,
> > then how old is the Librarian? In human form, I don't see a spring chicken
> > in charge of UU's dangerous library, in fact a wizard of some skill would
> > be needed. So let's put the Librarian's human age at 40 or 50 at most.[1]
> > So, if we take the 15 years add them to Susan's 17, toss in about 3 or 4
> > more years for post SM stories, and we get a mon...orangutang of about 75
> > to 85 years of age! The Librarian shows no signs of slowing down, and is
> > still in full vigor as seen in Maskerade. What of the Librarian?
>
> Well, it appears (from Windle Poons) that one of the advantages of being a wizard is
> a rather longer lifespan. Since the Library is just crackling with magical energy and
> is something of a spatial/temporal anomaly, maybe the Librarian's normal aging processes
> are retarded by all that raw magic.

As long as we are onthe subject, what is the average lifespan or an
orangutan?

Malcolm Fraser

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
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In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.961024...@ermine.ox.ac.uk>
Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote:

->
->
->On 24 Oct 1996, Colm Buckley wrote:
->
->> > == Ross Smith <al...@netlink.co.nz>
->>
->> > The whole Discworld saga so far must span at least a couple of decades
->> > (shich leads to some awkward questions about Rincewind's age).
->>
->> Not nesse-celery. Rincewind spent an unspecified amount of time in the
->> Dungeon Dimensions, and a short time in Hell... who knows how quickly
->> time passes in these alternate planes?
->
->Even if it's the same as Disc time, that needn't matter much. IIRC we
->learn in IT that Rincewind never actually graduated, so he could well be
->student age in TCOM - say about 20 - which would make him in his forties
->in IT. I don't remember anything
->about his behaviour in either of those books which is inconsistent with
->those ages (or, for that matter, with any age in between - he's not as
->old as Cohen nor as young as Coin, but apart from that his age seems
->largely immaterial).

In fact, IIRC, students could have a much greater range of ages in the
past. Sou you could have some starting at, say, 14 years old, while
others are 20 or more. This could also account for a lot of slack
time.

--
Malcolm in sunny Berkhamsted

Andrew Janssen

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
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Kedamono wrote:

<snipped>
> Speaking of the Librarian...If the above timeline is more or less correct,
> then how old is the Librarian? In human form, I don't see a spring chicken
> in charge of UU's dangerous library, in fact a wizard of some skill would
> be needed. So let's put the Librarian's human age at 40 or 50 at most.[1]
> So, if we take the 15 years add them to Susan's 17, toss in about 3 or 4
> more years for post SM stories, and we get a mon...orangutang of about 75
> to 85 years of age! The Librarian shows no signs of slowing down, and is
> still in full vigor as seen in Maskerade. What of the Librarian?

Well, it appears (from Windle Poons) that on

ROCKY FRISCO

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
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CC> Clem:

CC> Rather like Nigel Lawson then? I was quite astonished to see him on
CC> TV the other day loooking so gaunt and thin. I can't really say
CC> though that he looks any healthier - more like some kind of ancient
CC> exhumed corpse.

Nigel Lawson looks like me?

-Rock

<rocky....@bgbbs.com> Black Gold BBS http://bgbbs.com/~rocky/roc.htm
Harry Browne in `96 our only real hope--> http://www.HarryBrowne96.org


* RM 1.31 1542 * There is no gravity, the earth just sucks. (sluuuuuuuuuurp!)

Ross Smith

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
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Geoff Mordock wrote:
>
> Was the librarian's visit linked to time travel? I didn't get that. I
> thought he used L-Space to travel through space, not necissarily time.
> I always assumed that the main part of SG took place at roughly the same
> time as the other novels...with FOC maybe happening a few years
> afterwards (enough time for Brutha to force the people to calm down.)

SG, p. 216 (Corgi paperback):

Only a few librarians learn the secret, and there are inflexible
rules about making use of the fact. Because it amounts to time
travel, and time travel causes big problems.

But if a library is on fire, and down in the history books as
having been on fire...

[...] Some time later, scrolls thought to have been destroyed in
the Great Ephebian Library Fire turned up in remarkably good
condition in the Library of Unseen University in Ankh-Morpork.

To me that seems pretty clear: the Librarian had read about the fire in
history books, and went back in time to save some of the books.

--
Ross Smith (Wellington, New Zealand) ...... <mailto:al...@netlink.co.nz>
......... <http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/3699/> ..........
"The duke had a mind that ticked like a clock and, like a clock, it
regularly went cuckoo." -- Terry Pratchett (Wyrd Sisters)

Tony Finch

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Oct 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/26/96
to

Ross Smith <al...@netlink.co.nz> wrote:
>
> SG, p. 216 (Corgi paperback):
>
> Only a few librarians learn the secret, and there are inflexible
> rules about making use of the fact. Because it amounts to time
> travel, and time travel causes big problems.
>
> But if a library is on fire, and down in the history books as
> having been on fire...
>
> [...] Some time later, scrolls thought to have been destroyed in
> the Great Ephebian Library Fire turned up in remarkably good
> condition in the Library of Unseen University in Ankh-Morpork.
>
> To me that seems pretty clear: the Librarian had read about the fire in
> history books, and went back in time to save some of the books.

Hmm. Even if "only a few librarians learn the secret" I'm surprised
that the place wasn't overrun by them all trying to save the books...

FTony.

Kedamono

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Oct 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/26/96
to

In article <c3i4FAAo...@unseen.demon.co.uk>, Terry Pratchett
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Here's what I think, for what it's worth:
>

> The age of the Librarian. Well, orangutans have been known to live to
> about 30, and humans to c. 114. But wizards live longer. And who knows
> how these facts combined in the case of the Librarian? He might live
> as long as a human *and* an orangutan put together.

OK, this sort of makes fine discworldian sense, and I can live with that.
I really don't want to were a black arm-band in mourning for the
Librarian.[1]
Still, this puts an upper age on the Librarian of around 144 or 154. Well,
actually, that works very well, because it means that the Librarian is now
middled-aged. I wonder if he's going to go through a middle aged
crisis.[2]

>
> I'm pretty certain that the same Patrician was in all the books. Let's
> look at it like this:
>
> *Some* guilds are very old (the Beggars and the Assassins). Vetinari
> merely encouraged them and helped the thieves, hitherto a loose
> association of gangs, form their own Guild.
>
> He's clearly lost weigh and got more austere. It must be the pressure.
>
> As for racehorses and so on -- Vetinari is not the first Patrician, and
> no doubt the earlier ones, like Lord Snapcase, were often crazed, greedy
> and acquisitive. So he has inherited all sorts of things. But he
> doesn't change anything without a reason.
>
> Terry Pratchett

Geesh, I now in a position to disagree with the person who writes this
stuff.[3] I went over the pertinent pages, and the Patrician in TCOM just
doesn't read the same as Vetinari, he scans as a different person
altogether. He also seemed to be a bit more blood thirsty, and had an
active spy network that doesn't seem to mesh with the system that Vetinari
has in place. In fact, he reads like ol' Snapcase.[4] The casual mention
of a beringed hand, Rincewind worried about being shot down by a hail of
crossbow bolts, the somewhat sybriatic lifestyle of this TCOM Patrician,
all point to a different person. Vetinari would have met with Rincewind
alone, in a simple room, and his very presence would have sufficed in
sending Rincewind into a nervous fit.

Nope, as much as I hate to disagree with the master, The TCOM Patrician
isn't Vetinari.


[1] I can imagine the stares when I tell them "Well you see, this
character, an orangutan, who used to be a man, but got primatized by some
magic..."
[2] I don't suppose that there is a female orangutan in the Patrician's
menagerie? What's said about the seventh son of orangutan?
[3] Just missed seeing you in Seattle. Darn! Visiting Seattle or nearby
again soon?
[4] I know, we have never met the previous Patrician, but from inferences,
the TCOM Patrician matches to a tee.

Midnight Tree Bandit

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Oct 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/26/96
to

In the last episode, we saw Victoria Martin say:

>Even if it's the same as Disc time, that needn't matter much. IIRC we

>learn in IT that Rincewind never actually graduated, so he could well be

>student age in TCOM - say about 20 - which would make him in his forties

>in IT. I don't remember anything

I always assumed that Rincewind was about thirtyish, since that was his age
when he made the transfer the TWA plane on our, er, plane in the third part of
TCOM. "...Dr. Rjinswand, 33, a bachelor, born in Sweden, raised in New
Jersey..." (NAL hc (SFBC edition), p132). For no particular reason, I fgured
his age by IT to be in the late 40's. I'm with Colm -- no telling how time in
the nether regions compares to our time here. But he was only on the desert
island for six months, and I got the impression he'd been through an awful lot
between the end of Eric and the beginning of IT.

-=><=-

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Midnight Tree Bandit | happy tune in time with irresponsibility
mtba...@mindspring.com | i'm dancing on the muddy slope of financial security
100000 Driuds have been | and squandering cheerfully my nicey-nice conformity
known to get it wrong! | i've fallen out the window of opportunity (m cadell)

John Fouhy

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Oct 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/26/96
to

In article <326DCD...@netlink.co.nz>,

Ross Smith <al...@netlink.co.nz> wrote:
> The whole Discworld saga so far must span at least a couple of decades
> (shich leads to some awkward questions about Rincewind's age).

What is Rincewind's current age?

I got the impression that he was youngish in TCOM (20-30), and don't
recall anything since. I know on IT he is depicted as being old (beard,
etc), but this hasn't struck true with me, and IIRC I'm not alone..

--
\\\\\ John Fouhy, Wellington, New Zealand _o_ jfo...@actrix.gen.nz \,
\\\\\\\__o Student of Wellington College ($) Fido: 3:771/160.43 <>
\\\\\\\\'/ 58% afpure | De Chelonian Mobile.. " " '73 | NHPure: 82 ./,/`
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. - GM /_/`

John Fouhy

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Oct 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/26/96
to

In article <54qtpc$9...@morgoth.sfu.ca>,

Gordon Steemson <gste...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> The head of the Assassins (hey, there's another word it's hard to stop
> spelling!) in TCOM was Zlorf Flannelfoot, who--though possessed of a
> certain style--was definitely not particularly upper-class, and also he
> was killed in the tavern brawl, IIRC. This seems out of character for
> the head of a violent guild, but there you are.

The assassins - violent?

I should say not, good chap!

They are not mere common thugs, but highly trained and skilled
professionals, every dagger carefully aimed, and /stylish/. Like [c|k]ats,
really. Or Elves.

John Fouhy

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Oct 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/26/96
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In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.96102...@ermine.ox.ac.uk>,
Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> the Assassins have a rather unclear history, but have certainly been
> around for a long time.

Vetinari even studied there...

John Fouhy

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Oct 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/26/96
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In article <54rmdu$h...@dex.trin.cam.ac.uk>, Tony Finch <fa...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> Hmm. Even if "only a few librarians learn the secret" I'm surprised
> that the place wasn't overrun by them all trying to save the books...

Consider that they must abide by the rules of the "Librarians of Space and
Time", and the library was only down as burning in the Disc's history
books..

Even if they did nip through and read them (which would be unlikely -
unless you don't grow older whilst in a different area of lspace from your
own - given all the potential history books available for reading that are
available to the skilled lspacer), it is possible that they respected the
books as being part of The Librarian's 'patch'..

The Bellinghman

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Oct 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/26/96