Book cover: SoD
J.G.Harston
weekend section's "Pictures with meaning" section
features "An Experiment On A Bird In The Air Pump" - the
inspiration for the cover of The Science of Discworld.
It make interesting comparison.
--
JGH
Arthur Hagen
No need to pay for a paper.
Regards,
--
*Art
Jens Ayton
And for those who can't, Google can provide a number of pics.
--
\\\\ Jens "not Jen" Ayton Fratello di Vetinari
\\\\\__, Bringing sarcastic one-liners to the common hedgehog since 1999
\\\\\`/ No, I'm not back. You're just imagining it. The very idea! Huh!
J.G.Harston
> No need to pay for a paper.
> <URL:
But I can cut it out of the paper. It's much better resolution
that any printer I have access to.
--
JGH
John Duncan Yoyo
wrote:
But the Guardian doesn't make it this far to east. That big puddle
between the UK and the US slows things down immensily.
--
John Duncan Yoyo
------------------------------o)
Brought to you by the Binks for Senate campaign comittee.
Coruscant is far, far away from wesa on Naboo.
Brian Wakeling
John Duncan Yoyo uttered thus:
> On 12 Sep 2004 21:08:16 -0700, j...@arcade.demon.co.uk
> (J.G.Harston) wrote:
>
>> "Arthur Hagen" wrote:
>>> No need to pay for a paper.
>>> <URL:
>> [snip]
>>
>> But I can cut it out of the paper. It's much better
>> resolution that any printer I have access to.
>
> But the Guardian doesn't make it this far to east. That
> big puddle between the UK and the US slows things down
> immensily.
Erm...
<engage pedant mode>
East of Wapping[1] are some docks, an estuary, the North Sea,
Jutland (I think), Eastern Europe, Russia, maybe some
China[2], and a dirty great huge sea. Then you get to the
International Date Line, and you have to stop.
Perhaps you meant West?
<pedant mde off>
[1] where virtaully all UK newspapers are printed
[2] better pick that up, it might get broken...
--
Sabremeister Brian :-)
Use b dot wakeling at virgin dot net to reply
http://freespace.virgin.net/b.wakeling/index.html
"Change is inevitable - except from vending machines"
Eric Jarvis
> In a speech called sqkbk0h6s8mp2uf4d...@4ax.com,
> John Duncan Yoyo uttered thus:
> > On 12 Sep 2004 21:08:16 -0700, j...@arcade.demon.co.uk
> > (J.G.Harston) wrote:
> >
> >> "Arthur Hagen" wrote:
> >>> No need to pay for a paper.
> >>> <URL:
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> But I can cut it out of the paper. It's much better
> >> resolution that any printer I have access to.
> >
> > But the Guardian doesn't make it this far to east. That
> > big puddle between the UK and the US slows things down
> > immensily.
>
> Erm...
>
> <engage pedant mode>
> East of Wapping[1] are some docks, an estuary, the North Sea,
> Jutland (I think), Eastern Europe, Russia, maybe some
> China[2], and a dirty great huge sea. Then you get to the
> International Date Line, and you have to stop.
>
> Perhaps you meant West?
> <pedant mde off>
>
> [1] where virtaully all UK newspapers are printed
> [2] better pick that up, it might get broken...
>
east, west...it's merely a question of how far you are prepared to travel
and which direction you want to end up facing
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Brian Wakeling
MPG.1bb1f802b...@news.individual.net,
Eric Jarvis uttered thus:
If you head the wrong way from Wapping to the US, you could
travel an extra 15000 miles, though. That's a big enough
difference for anyone to ask "am I going the right way?"
--
Sabremeister Brian :-)
Use b dot wakeling at virgin dot net to reply
http://freespace.virgin.net/b.wakeling/index.html
The problem with being in the rat-race is:
Even if you win, you're still a rat.
Eric Jarvis
nope...not a chance...I'm a male...I have hormones that require me at all
times to assume that I know where I am, know where I'm going, and insist
that any problems are due to the local council messing about with the road
signs...a mere 15 thousand miles shouldn't even start me worrying about
whether the map is buried under the the old crisp packets in the glove
compartment or covered in oil in the boot
of course if the is anyone present who has suggested that there is
potentially something wrong with a two mile journey covering seven and
half thousand times the distance then it will be all their fault anyway
to cap it all I studied physics...and you can hardly expect a physicist to
be bothered by a mere 15000 mile discrepancy...2 miles and 15k miles are
essentially the same thing looked at in any way that might be interesting
on either a quantum scale or a cosmic scale
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"if a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing to excess"
Darin Johnson
> of course if the is anyone present who has suggested that there is
> potentially something wrong with a two mile journey covering seven and
> half thousand times the distance then it will be all their fault anyway
It makes perfect sense. It is very hard on an automobile's engine
to drive a mere two miles. The engine hasn't fully warmed up at
such a short distance and the oil can get moisture in it. The
15 thousand miles is just to make sure you're fully warmed up and
getting decent gas mileage.
Wrong? Lost? I _wanted_ to end up in Boise!
--
Darin Johnson
Gravity is a harsh mistress -- The Tick
Andy Davison
> to cap it all I studied physics...and you can hardly expect a physicist to
> be bothered by a mere 15000 mile discrepancy...2 miles and 15k miles are
> essentially the same thing looked at in any way that might be interesting
> on either a quantum scale or a cosmic scale
Ah, so that explains 'Krakatoa *East* of Java' then :)
--
Andy Davison
an...@oiyou.force9.co.uk
Karen S.
> nope...not a chance...I'm a male...I have hormones that require me at all
> times to assume that I know where I am, know where I'm going, and insist
> that any problems are due to the local council messing about with the road
> signs...a mere 15 thousand miles shouldn't even start me worrying about
> whether the map is buried under the the old crisp packets in the glove
> compartment or covered in oil in the boot
Do you also have the hormone that causes you to say, after a journey
which would normally take an hour, but with you behind the wheel
actually took 5 1/2, "Hmmm, maybe I /should've/ asked for directions
at that gas station back there..." after which your passenger, who's
been saying that all along, is arrested for attempted murder?
> of course if the is anyone present who has suggested that there is
> potentially something wrong with a two mile journey covering seven and
> half thousand times the distance then it will be all their fault anyway
Ah, not so much hormones as genes, in this case, because this is a
common occurence in many, many other aspects of life...:-)
> to cap it all I studied physics...and you can hardly expect a physicist to
> be bothered by a mere 15000 mile discrepancy...2 miles and 15k miles are
> essentially the same thing looked at in any way that might be interesting
> on either a quantum scale or a cosmic scale
A very Zen approach. But it is important to ask yourself whether your
passenger also studied physics? Very important consideration, because
they might not share your enlightened POV :-)
Toodly Pip
Karen (who has been known to get lost 3 miles from her own home,
female genes to the rescue!! :->)
Eric Jarvis
> Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> wrote in message news:<MPG.1bb2edad8...@news.individual.net>...
>
> > nope...not a chance...I'm a male...I have hormones that require me at all
> > times to assume that I know where I am, know where I'm going, and insist
> > that any problems are due to the local council messing about with the road
> > signs...a mere 15 thousand miles shouldn't even start me worrying about
> > whether the map is buried under the the old crisp packets in the glove
> > compartment or covered in oil in the boot
>
> Do you also have the hormone that causes you to say, after a journey
> which would normally take an hour, but with you behind the wheel
> actually took 5 1/2, "Hmmm, maybe I /should've/ asked for directions
> at that gas station back there..." after which your passenger, who's
> been saying that all along, is arrested for attempted murder?
>
nooooooooooo!
wouldn't even consider it...the correct masculine approach is to avoid
ever asking anyone for dire...dir...di...those things...wouldn't work,
can't happen, not feasible...the correct responses are to say "I think
they may have changed the one way system", "lucky I took the side road,
with this much traffic we'd have been hours longer on the motorway", or
just keep schtum, after all it's bound to be somebody else's fault
> > of course if the is anyone present who has suggested that there is
> > potentially something wrong with a two mile journey covering seven and
> > half thousand times the distance then it will be all their fault anyway
>
> Ah, not so much hormones as genes, in this case, because this is a
> common occurence in many, many other aspects of life...:-)
>
I think it requires the combination...for instance most men don't have the
hormone that would cause the equivalent effect when it comes to choosing
furniture or clothes
> > to cap it all I studied physics...and you can hardly expect a physicist to
> > be bothered by a mere 15000 mile discrepancy...2 miles and 15k miles are
> > essentially the same thing looked at in any way that might be interesting
> > on either a quantum scale or a cosmic scale
>
> A very Zen approach. But it is important to ask yourself whether your
> passenger also studied physics? Very important consideration, because
> they might not share your enlightened POV :-)
>
actually I deal with it by not having a driving license...which is 100%
effective :)
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
Daibhid Ceannaideach
Date: 16/09/04 14:22 GMT Daylight Time
>the correct masculine approach is to avoid
>ever asking anyone for dire...dir...di...those things...wouldn't work,
>can't happen, not feasible...the correct responses are to say "I think
>they may have changed the one way system", "lucky I took the side road,
>with this much traffic we'd have been hours longer on the motorway", or
>just keep schtum, after all it's bound to be somebody else's fault
Alternatively, there's the Dirk Gently approach. "This may not be where we were
going, but I think we'd have wanted to be here if we'd known."
<20p>
--
Dave
The Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
In life, as in breakfast cereal, it is always best to read the instructions on
the box.
-Thief of Time, Terry Pratchett
Karen S.
<snip>
> > Ah, not so much hormones as genes, in this case, because this is a
> > common occurence in many, many other aspects of life...:-)
> >
>
> I think it requires the combination...for instance most men don't have the
> hormone that would cause the equivalent effect when it comes to choosing
> furniture or clothes
Ah, touchee. I guess I had that coming :)
Toodly Pip
Eric Jarvis
we all do this stuff...no matter how far from the gender stereotype we
are, little bits of learned behaviour and genetic programming slip through
and suddenly we do something macho or girly for no readily apparent
reason...it would be irritating if it wasn't so absurd
Lesley Weston
w...@ericjarvis.co.uk wrote on 16/09/2004 4:37 PM:
> Karen S. ka...@great-atuin.co.uk wrote:
>> Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:<MPG.1bb3a3fa...@news.individual.net>...
>>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> Ah, not so much hormones as genes, in this case, because this is a
>>>> common occurence in many, many other aspects of life...:-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think it requires the combination...for instance most men don't have the
>>> hormone that would cause the equivalent effect when it comes to choosing
>>> furniture or clothes
>>
>> Ah, touchee. I guess I had that coming :)
>>
>
> we all do this stuff...no matter how far from the gender stereotype we
> are, little bits of learned behaviour and genetic programming slip through
> and suddenly we do something macho or girly for no readily apparent
> reason...it would be irritating if it wasn't so absurd
To go off at a tangent [1], we have two grandchildren, a four-year-old boy
and his two-and-a-half-year-old sister. The girl is now ready for girly toys
- she likes to wear pretty clothes, and plays elaborate games with dolls
involving many different voices, some of them squeaky and some impressively
loud and deep - but there aren't any except Barbie or those appalling
"little housewife" toys. I refuse to hand over money for either of those
categories, which means that she can have boyish toys that she doesn't need
because she can play with her brother's toys (when there's an adult present
to enforce it, anyway), or she can have yet another non-Barbie doll. ISTM
that there's a gaping marketing niche here that someone ought to fill,
preferably before she gets too old for toys.
[1] On afp? Shirley not!
--
Lesley Weston.
Brightly_coloured_blob is real, so as not to upset the sys-apes, but I don't
actually read anything sent to it before I empty it. To reach me, use lesley
att vancouverbc dott nett, changing spelling and spacing as required.
Eric Jarvis
>
> To go off at a tangent [1], we have two grandchildren, a four-year-old boy
> and his two-and-a-half-year-old sister. The girl is now ready for girly toys
> - she likes to wear pretty clothes, and plays elaborate games with dolls
> involving many different voices, some of them squeaky and some impressively
> loud and deep - but there aren't any except Barbie or those appalling
> "little housewife" toys. I refuse to hand over money for either of those
> categories, which means that she can have boyish toys that she doesn't need
> because she can play with her brother's toys (when there's an adult present
> to enforce it, anyway), or she can have yet another non-Barbie doll. ISTM
> that there's a gaping marketing niche here that someone ought to fill,
> preferably before she gets too old for toys.
>
Action Man Drag Queen
BDSM Barbie
Cabbage Patch Goths
basically the market is almost all gaps
SteveD
three electrons together and said:
[granddaughter]
>she can have boyish toys that she doesn't need
>because she can play with her brother's toys (when there's an adult present
>to enforce it, anyway)
On a complete tangent, I find myself in two minds about this practice.
As an adult, I can see that it's much more efficient to have a pool of
toys that all siblings and/or other nearby children play with. It costs
less than buying multiple separate toy hoards, and each child gets to
interact with a wider variety of stimuli.
And then I remember the time my younger brother was behaving so
obnoxiously that my parents, at their wits' end, decided that the only
way to shut him up was to give him something he'd been denied up until
then - access to the collection of rather fragile toy robots I'd been
accumulating.
"Let your brother play with your toys."
"He will break them."
"No he won't."
"Yes he will. The same way he breaks any toy that is not an actual house
brick, and the same way he breaks everything of mine that he 'borrows'
without asking."
"Give your brother one of your toys."
"No."
"I'm not asking you, I'm telling you."
"And you will buy me a new one when he breaks it."
"YES! Just give him the damn toy!"
"Fine."
*** FOUR MINUTES LATER ***
<CRACK!>
*** ONE MINUTE AFTER THAT ***
"Here, you can keep the pieces. I hope you considered that a good use of
your time and money. Toy store opens at nine."
Yes, I was a precocious and smartassed kid. I was also exceedingly
annoyed - livid, really - at that particular excuse for a parenting
decision. I collected those things because I was intrigued by the
delicate engineering that had gone into each one. I was not amused that
my parents apparently viewed them as a public library of troglodyte
pacifiers.
Obviously, instead of developing an interest in the mechanical sciences,
I should have been spending my pocket money on things that could be used
to distract my brother. Dried beef strips, possibly. Or house bricks.
Ah, the psychological traumas of childhood.
Amusingly enough, little brother grew up to achieve gobsmackingly high
marks in History and English classes, practically memorise the work of
Tolkien, and take his interests well into tertiary education. But I
still wouldn't let him near anything less sturdy than a house brick.
-SteveD
Lesley Weston
cy...@thelanddownunder.com wrote on 18/09/2004 1:51 AM:
> Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> meticulously glued
> three electrons together and said:
>
> [granddaughter]
>
>> she can have boyish toys that she doesn't need
>> because she can play with her brother's toys (when there's an adult present
>> to enforce it, anyway)
>
> On a complete tangent, I find myself in two minds about this practice.
>
> As an adult, I can see that it's much more efficient to have a pool of
> toys that all siblings and/or other nearby children play with. It costs
> less than buying multiple separate toy hoards, and each child gets to
> interact with a wider variety of stimuli.
>
> And then I remember the time my younger brother was behaving so
> obnoxiously that my parents, at their wits' end, decided that the only
> way to shut him up was to give him something he'd been denied up until
> then - access to the collection of rather fragile toy robots I'd been
> accumulating.
Well yes, there are always special cases where certain toys are not for
sharing. In that household there's an additional rule - if he's already
playing with it himself, she can't take it away from him. And vice versa, of
course, but like I said, there's very little available for her. They both
play happily and even together (occasionally) with things like little cars,
of which there are plenty.
Sarah Warren
> are, little bits of learned behaviour and genetic programming slip through
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> and suddenly we do something macho or girly for no readily apparent
> reason...it would be irritating if it wasn't so absurd
Except that probably is the reason...? I guess it goes to show that there
are
deeper differences between men and women than simply which sexual
organs we happen to have... me, I don't worry to much when I do something
girly - I /am/ a girl, after all :-) I'm allowed ;-)
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 18/09/2004
seanna watson
> in article MPG.1bb433fc...@news.individual.net, Eric Jarvis at
> w...@ericjarvis.co.uk wrote on 16/09/2004 4:37 PM:
>
>
[...]
>>
>>we all do this stuff...no matter how far from the gender stereotype we
>>are, little bits of learned behaviour and genetic programming slip through
>>and suddenly we do something macho or girly for no readily apparent
>>reason...it would be irritating if it wasn't so absurd
>
>
> To go off at a tangent [1], we have two grandchildren, a four-year-old boy
> and his two-and-a-half-year-old sister. The girl is now ready for girly toys
> - she likes to wear pretty clothes, and plays elaborate games with dolls
> involving many different voices, some of them squeaky and some impressively
> loud and deep - but there aren't any except Barbie or those appalling
> "little housewife" toys. I refuse to hand over money for either of those
> categories, which means that she can have boyish toys that she doesn't need
> because she can play with her brother's toys (when there's an adult present
> to enforce it, anyway), or she can have yet another non-Barbie doll. ISTM
> that there's a gaping marketing niche here that someone ought to fill,
> preferably before she gets too old for toys.
>
> [1] On afp? Shirley not!
>
One of my kids, at around 6, *really* wanted a Barbie for a birthday
present. I despise Barbie, but I must admit, i was very tempted to
fulfill the wish. In the end, though, even the iconoclasm potential of
buying my 6-year-old /son/ a Barbie could not outweigh my revulsion. (I
think I got him a Playmobil set instead).
elfin
> Lesley Weston wrote:
[snip]
>> To go off at a tangent [1], we have two grandchildren, a
>> four-year-old boy and his two-and-a-half-year-old sister. The girl
>> is now ready for girly toys - she likes to wear pretty clothes, and
>> plays elaborate games with dolls involving many different voices,
>> some of them squeaky and some impressively loud and deep - but there
>> aren't any except Barbie or those appalling "little housewife" toys.
>> I refuse to hand over money for either of those categories, which
>> means that she can have boyish toys that she doesn't need because
>> she can play with her brother's toys (when there's an adult present
>> to enforce it, anyway), or she can have yet another non-Barbie doll.
>> ISTM that there's a gaping marketing niche here that someone ought
>> to fill, preferably before she gets too old for toys.
>>
>> [1] On afp? Shirley not!
>>
>
> One of my kids, at around 6, *really* wanted a Barbie for a birthday
> present. I despise Barbie, but I must admit, i was very tempted to
> fulfill the wish. In the end, though, even the iconoclasm potential
> of buying my 6-year-old /son/ a Barbie could not outweigh my
> revulsion. (I think I got him a Playmobil set instead).
hmm Kai seems to like Bratz(TM), and has asked "are these for boys as
well?". Same with 'the princess and the pauper' barbie dolls. Though he has
been requesting a dolls house for some time now, so that is likely to be on
Santa's list.
Playmobil is all very well, but it is fairly expensive. Not like when i was
young and saved up Cereal carton 'tops' to send off for some. This was for
approx 20, that took over 6 months to arrive. No wonder they changed over to
'coupons'.
elfin
--
http://www.elfden.co.uk/
http://www.quirm.net/
http://www.lspace.org/
http://www.by-users.co.uk/
snowflakebebe
> hmm Kai seems to like Bratz(TM), and has asked "are these for boys as
> well?". Same with 'the princess and the pauper' barbie dolls. Though he has
> been requesting a dolls house for some time now, so that is likely to be on
> Santa's list.
>
> Playmobil is all very well, but it is fairly expensive. Not like when i was
> young and saved up Cereal carton 'tops' to send off for some. This was for
> approx 20, that took over 6 months to arrive. No wonder they changed over to
> 'coupons'.
>
> elfin
We have just as many male fans of Bratz as we do female fans, and of
all ages. I guess they just interest a wide range of people :)
Bratz World
http://www.bratzworld.tv
Torak
> "elfin" <el...@elfden.co.uk> wrote in message
>
>>hmm Kai seems to like Bratz(TM), and has asked "are these for boys as
>>well?". Same with 'the princess and the pauper' barbie dolls. Though he has
>>been requesting a dolls house for some time now, so that is likely to be on
>>Santa's list.
>>
>>Playmobil is all very well, but it is fairly expensive. Not like when i was
>>young and saved up Cereal carton 'tops' to send off for some. This was for
>>approx 20, that took over 6 months to arrive. No wonder they changed over to
>>'coupons'.
>
> all ages. I guess they just interest a wide range of people :)
Oh, I hate those things. "Look, kids, it's cool to be a spoiled,
overfunded, oversexualised, fashion-obsessed brat!"
Of course, some elements of that may also apply to other products as well.
I always used to like Action Man, back in the days when he was vaguely
realistic. Moving eyes, flock crewcuts, webbings, realistic (-ish)
weapons.... Now it's all day-glo hands, missile-launcher guts, nuclear
dogsleds and such rubbish.
elfin
> "elfin" wrote in message
>>
>> hmm Kai seems to like Bratz(TM), and has asked "are these for boys as
>> well?". Same with 'the princess and the pauper' barbie dolls. Though
>> he has been requesting a dolls house for some time now, so that is
>> likely to be on Santa's list.
>
> We have just as many male fans of Bratz as we do female fans, and of
> all ages. I guess they just interest a wide range of people :)
>
> Bratz World
> http://www.bratzworld.tv
that is one busy forum!
Well Kai is 4 at the moment, more interested in Sonic the hedgehog, but we
live in hope that his horizons will not be stiffled by adverts and peer
pressure.
Graycat
<and...@andrew-perry.com> jotted down:
>snowflakebebe wrote:
>> "elfin" <el...@elfden.co.uk> wrote in message
>>
>>>hmm Kai seems to like Bratz(TM), and has asked "are these for boys as
>>>well?". Same with 'the princess and the pauper' barbie dolls. Though he has
>>>been requesting a dolls house for some time now, so that is likely to be on
>>>Santa's list.
>>>
>>>Playmobil is all very well, but it is fairly expensive. Not like when i was
>>>young and saved up Cereal carton 'tops' to send off for some. This was for
>>>approx 20, that took over 6 months to arrive. No wonder they changed over to
>>>'coupons'.
>>
>> We have just as many male fans of Bratz as we do female fans, and of
>> all ages. I guess they just interest a wide range of people :)
>
>Oh, I hate those things. "Look, kids, it's cool to be a spoiled,
>overfunded, oversexualised, fashion-obsessed brat!"
With enourmous heads and feet, and no upper bodies...
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/index.html
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
Orjan Westin
>> overfunded, oversexualised, fashion-obsessed brat!"
>
> With enourmous heads and feet, and no upper bodies...
Like the smurfs?
(No, we don't have any. We have a bunch of barbies, an Action Man and Kocoum
from Pocahontas. My daughter usually had Action Man and one of the barbies
be the villains who had locked all the other barbies up, and they were
defeated by Kocoum and the last free Barbie.)
Orjan
snowflakebebe
> Graycat wrote:
> > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:33:04 GMT, Torak
> > <and...@andrew-perry.com> jotted down:
> >
> >>
> >> Oh, I hate those things. "Look, kids, it's cool to be a spoiled,
> >> overfunded, oversexualised, fashion-obsessed brat!"
> >
> > With enourmous heads and feet, and no upper bodies...
>
I understand not everyone likes the Bratz and thats okay with me
because I also like to say what I feel and not get bashed for it...
But it is interesting how some view them as having enormous boobs and
"big booties" :) As far as their body types so many people don't
notice for some reason that they are not as well endowed as Barbie is.
They really do have comparatively tiny upper bodies and largeish
looking thighs, but one critic though called them anorexic and other
praised them for having bigger bodies. I guess the best thing is to
just judge for yourself and do (and see) what you believe is right
:)
sfb
Bratz World
http://www.bratzworld.tv
Torak
I'm not so bothered about that - tricky to find a doll that isn't
overinflated - but it's the arrogance that comes across in all the
adverts that gets me. The name (both the "brat" bit and the fact that
nothing sends me into a spitting rage like replacing S with Z), the
ridiculous fashion obsession, and that supercilious expression on their
faces: "Look, I'm better than you because I've got some stupid idea of
why you're wearing the wrong clothes".
Sorry, bit of a rant there... let me guess, were focus groups involved
in the design of those things?
Peachy Ashie Passion
Torak, they've got to have the ridiculous fashion obsession.
How else can the toy manufacturer make money selling more clothes?
--
Having a great deal of time on their hands, and being a relatively
closed society, all vampires were natural gossips. ~ Slayer, Karen
Koehler
snowflakebebe
> Torak wrote:
>
> > snowflakebebe wrote:
> >
> >> "Orjan Westin" <nos...@cunobaros.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:<2rbmouF...@uni-berlin.de>...
> >>
> >>> Graycat wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:33:04 GMT, Torak
> >>>> <and...@andrew-perry.com> jotted down:
> > overinflated - but it's the arrogance that comes across in all the
> > adverts that gets me. The name (both the "brat" bit and the fact that
> > nothing sends me into a spitting rage like replacing S with Z), the
> > ridiculous fashion obsession, and that supercilious expression on their
> > faces: "Look, I'm better than you because I've got some stupid idea of
> > why you're wearing the wrong clothes".
> >
> > Sorry, bit of a rant there... let me guess, were focus groups involved
> > in the design of those things?
Yes tons of focus groups (thats how the Bratz name was used, the owner
thought it wouldn't go over well but it tested the best of all the
names they had on the table) and they still have them to decide
directions for the new lines. They are play things and really don't
reflect real life but fun stuff and "an animated character come to
life". I am sure future productive members of society will have owned
Bratz dolls and will be normal, I guess any toys can make a future
weirdo too. I just love how cute and colorful they are, just
something fun and pretty, mini-escapes :)
Bratz World
http://www.bratzworld.tv
Karen S.
For some reason (I don't know why :-)) I never looked at their bodies,
but only at the price at which they apparently go...my usual reaction
is ooooooooooooommyyyyyyyyyyyyyggggggggggggggggoooooooooooooooooodddddddddddd!!!
And that's only for the dolls, not the mention the clothes and
accessoiries (spelling?)....I mean, I don't spend that much money on
clothes (books yes, clothes no)
Is it just me or are toys more expensive than in the good old days?
Before I got old apparently...;-)
Richard Eney
<snip>
>> > in the design of those things?
>
>Yes tons of focus groups (thats how the Bratz name was used, the owner
>thought it wouldn't go over well but it tested the best of all the
>names they had on the table)
The "best...on the table" doesn't prove a lot. Back when I worked for a
market research company, I got to see a bunch of tests of, for instance,
different possible designs for things. Almost always there wasn't one
single clear winner, but if elements of one had been combined with
elements of another, the combination would have beat out anything that
was actually on the table.
I think that people in focus groups are either dreadfully unimaginative
or awfully shy, or perhaps it's misplaced politeness.
=Tamar
Richard Eney
Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>To go off at a tangent [1], we have two grandchildren, a four-year-old boy
>and his two-and-a-half-year-old sister. The girl is now ready for girly toys
>- she likes to wear pretty clothes, and plays elaborate games with dolls
>involving many different voices, some of them squeaky and some impressively
>loud and deep - but there aren't any except Barbie or those appalling
>"little housewife" toys. I refuse to hand over money for either of those
>categories, which means that she can have boyish toys that she doesn't need
>because she can play with her brother's toys (when there's an adult present
>to enforce it, anyway), or she can have yet another non-Barbie doll. ISTM
>that there's a gaping marketing niche here that someone ought to fill,
>preferably before she gets too old for toys.
>
>[1] On afp? Shirley not!
I'm puzzled; could you define "girly toys" that couldn't be subsumed under
"little housewife" stuff? I mean, there's fake/real make-up, small purses
(toys for kids who don't really have stuff to carry in a purse), and
dress-up clothes, but most anything else is unisex. Kitchen equipment is
unisex, doll houses are unisex, blocks are unisex, drawing and painting
equipment are unisex, etc etc. And cars and tools are unisex, too,
dammit. Why bother with toys at all, really. Just get decentish real
stuff, like paints and brushes and paper to watercolor on, some scrap wood
and a real small hammer and nails (under supervision, sure), cloth to
drape over chairs to make a tent, real small cookware to learn to cook
with... maybe a toy loom to know where cloth comes from...
And I'd say give her her own "boyish" toys. Her brother will share right
now, but wait'll he decides he's going to be a Boy and not play with
Girls, and suddenly every single car and truck and marble is His, no
matter who had them first.
=Tamar
elfin
hmm. I actually think the name reflects quite nicely what the dolls actually
are. 'Brat' has been used in reference to children for a number of years,
maybe it is more surprising that it hasn't been used before.
elfin
Torak
>>Torak wrote:
>>
>>>I'm not so bothered about that - tricky to find a doll that isn't
>>>overinflated - but it's the arrogance that comes across in all the
>>>adverts that gets me. The name (both the "brat" bit and the fact that
>>>nothing sends me into a spitting rage like replacing S with Z), the
>>>ridiculous fashion obsession, and that supercilious expression on their
>>>faces: "Look, I'm better than you because I've got some stupid idea of
>>>why you're wearing the wrong clothes".
>>>
>>>Sorry, bit of a rant there... let me guess, were focus groups involved
>>>in the design of those things?
>
> Yes tons of focus groups (thats how the Bratz name was used, the owner
> thought it wouldn't go over well but it tested the best of all the
> names they had on the table) and they still have them to decide
What were the others? (I'm very sceptical about focus groups - there's a
line in one of the Discworld books, I think, which I quite agree with:
"Individuals are often intelligent, considerate and careful. But
'people' are vicious idiots." So I don't place a lot of trust in
collective wisdom... ;-)
> directions for the new lines. They are play things and really don't
> reflect real life but fun stuff and "an animated character come to
> life". I am sure future productive members of society will have owned
> Bratz dolls and will be normal, I guess any toys can make a future
> weirdo too. I just love how cute and colorful they are, just
> something fun and pretty, mini-escapes :)
If they looked friendlier I suspect I wouldn't be so loudly opposed to them.
I'll tell you one thing, though: if you can persuade the powers that be
to make one in Swedish-style M/90 combats I will be won over. (www.mil.se)
Jenny Radcliffe
> snowflakebebe <act...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Yes tons of focus groups (thats how the Bratz name was used, the
> > owner thought it wouldn't go over well but it tested the best of
> > all the names they had on the table)
> The "best...on the table" doesn't prove a lot. Back when I worked
> for a market research company, I got to see a bunch of tests of, for
> instance, different possible designs for things. Almost always there
> wasn't one single clear winner, but if elements of one had been
> combined with elements of another, the combination would have beat
> out anything that was actually on the table.
And in a decent design situation, that's what will happen - design is, or
should be, a feedback situation, with returns to previous stages of the
design process possible at all times.
Of course, in practice this doesn't happen ...
Jenny
Kincaid
Torak <and...@andrew-perry.com> wrote:
> I'm not so bothered about that - tricky to find a doll that isn't
> overinflated
your fetishes are your own, dude...
--
The conspiracy nuts with a time machine found that the only people on the
Grassy Knoll were 237 other conspiracy nuts with time machines...
seanna watson
> Tamar wrote:
[...]
>>
>>I think that people in focus groups are either dreadfully
>>unimaginative or awfully shy, or perhaps it's misplaced politeness.
>
>
> hmm. I actually think the name reflects quite nicely what the dolls actually
> are. 'Brat' has been used in reference to children for a number of years,
> maybe it is more surprising that it hasn't been used before.
>
elfin
exactly my point :-) A toy suiable for the little brats...
snowflakebebe
> to make one in Swedish-style M/90 combats I will be won over. (www.mil.se)
You should check out some of the Wild Life Safari line of Bratz. They
are very military oriented in style (great website you posted btw!)
and their vehicles have been used by GI Joe collectors to customize
for him :)
http://www.mgae.com/products/new_products_2004/products/_bratz/wlscruiser.asp
On the subject of focus groups, I don't know all the details other
than they use children in the "tween" age range most of the time and
the founder of the company has monthly gatherings with his daughter
and her friends who inspired the doll line. The design teams travel
to shows around the world for fashion and accessories and other
things. So they try to stay with current and growing fashion trends.
But I can't answer specific questions about details since I don't work
there :) I see articles and stuff and thats about all I know. I am
sure so many other things come into play.
Oh and if you want to see a really mean looking doll look up Off The
Hook dolls. They were obvious spin-offs of the Bratz but are way too
mean looking for me
http://www.mastercollector.com/neat/toyfair03/integrity/w10.jpg
seanna watson
At the risk of re-opening this can of worms (er...bucket of blocks), I
think a list of toy suggestions without Lego is sadly lacking. It is
unisex/gender-neutral, and suitable for all ages, from toddlers through
teens (and beyond[1]). It's also good for sharing. My boys never did
go through a "won't play with girls" stage, but they didn't have any
sisters either.
[1] AFOLs (Adult Fans Of Lego) are lurking nearly everywhere
MEG
news:1095974554.bymcmtFWxe8RuT/yPCOLqQ@teranews...
> At the risk of re-opening this can of worms (er...bucket of blocks), I
> think a list of toy suggestions without Lego is sadly lacking. It is
> unisex/gender-neutral, and suitable for all ages, from toddlers through
> teens (and beyond[1]). It's also good for sharing. My boys never did
> go through a "won't play with girls" stage, but they didn't have any
> sisters either.
>
> [1] AFOLs (Adult Fans Of Lego) are lurking nearly everywhere
Yo Lego!
Having kids gave me an excuse to buy some. Not the same these days, though.
The challenge used to be to make it look like you intended without the
facility of specially shaped bricks. I built lots of houses, I did.
And I also loved Meccanno, paper straws modelling, messing with moulds and
plaster of Paris, class-room models with cereal boxes and squeezy bottles
etc. Can't remember ever wanting to play with a doll (except the curiosity
of wanting to look through the *eye* of a special action man) because I was
always creeped out by dolls. It may have been the effects of a Hammer Horror
involving dolls - not sure - memory fading in my latter years.
Skipping. What's that all about?
- MEG
snowflakebebe
> but only at the price at which they apparently go...my usual reaction
> is ooooooooooooommyyyyyyyyyyyyyggggggggggggggggoooooooooooooooooodddddddddddd!!!
> And that's only for the dolls, not the mention the clothes and
> accessoiries (spelling?)....I mean, I don't spend that much money on
> clothes (books yes, clothes no)
>
> Is it just me or are toys more expensive than in the good old days?
> Before I got old apparently...;-)
They are very expensive and even the biggest Bratz fans are hoping for
a basic line like they used to have that isn't a ton of money. The
bigger sets are very pretty but lots of people are just picking one or
two rather than getting the whole line :)
Bratz World
http://www.bratzworld.tv
Torak
> Torak <and...@andrew-perry.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm not so bothered about that - tricky to find a doll that isn't
>>overinflated
>
> your fetishes are your own, dude...
Oh, I didn't see *that* joke coming....
Torak
> Torak <and...@andrew-perry.com> wrote in message
>
>>I'll tell you one thing, though: if you can persuade the powers that be
>>to make one in Swedish-style M/90 combats I will be won over. (www.mil.se)
>
> You should check out some of the Wild Life Safari line of Bratz. They
> are very military oriented in style (great website you posted btw!)
Swedish military. I was in the air force, thus my liking for the M/90
kit. Reckon there's any chance of licensing it for a doll? You might
have a convert, or at least a sale...
> and their vehicles have been used by GI Joe collectors to customize
> for him :)
> http://www.mgae.com/products/new_products_2004/products/_bratz/wlscruiser.asp
Neat.
> On the subject of focus groups, I don't know all the details other
> than they use children in the "tween" age range most of the time and
> the founder of the company has monthly gatherings with his daughter
> and her friends who inspired the doll line. The design teams travel
> to shows around the world for fashion and accessories and other
> things. So they try to stay with current and growing fashion trends.
> But I can't answer specific questions about details since I don't work
> there :) I see articles and stuff and thats about all I know. I am
> sure so many other things come into play.
Ah, so you're not employed by the Brats folks? Just got that impression
from your posts... Oh well.
> Oh and if you want to see a really mean looking doll look up Off The
> Hook dolls. They were obvious spin-offs of the Bratz but are way too
> mean looking for me
> http://www.mastercollector.com/neat/toyfair03/integrity/w10.jpg
> :)
Hehehehe...
Torak
>
> At the risk of re-opening this can of worms (er...bucket of blocks), I
> think a list of toy suggestions without Lego is sadly lacking. It is
> unisex/gender-neutral, and suitable for all ages, from toddlers through
> teens (and beyond[1]). It's also good for sharing. My boys never did
> go through a "won't play with girls" stage, but they didn't have any
> sisters either.
>
> [1] AFOLs (Adult Fans Of Lego) are lurking nearly everywhere
LEGO! YAY!
I love Lego. I've got... dunno, about 150 kg of it at home. Somewhere
around there, anyway, 100-150 kg.
Karen S.
> > [1] AFOLs (Adult Fans Of Lego) are lurking nearly everywhere
>
> LEGO! YAY!
>
> I love Lego. I've got... dunno, about 150 kg of it at home. Somewhere
> around there, anyway, 100-150 kg.
LEGO! Got about same amount I think, it was a bugger to move all the
crates, boxes and barrels. It's all at my parents house, who said
we'll get it when we have our own children. Somehow this very
persuasive argument did not help convince our partners to start a
family now...right now! :-)
Karen
Lesley Weston
I'm answering this now because I don't seem to have seen it before. I can't
really define "girly toys" because I'm not a toy-designer; my complaint was
that those who do design such things don't do anything for a toddler girl
who likes pretty clothes and seems to revel in her femininity - possibly as
a deliberate contrast to her brother.
>>
>> And I'd say give her her own "boyish" toys. Her brother will share right
>> now, but wait'll he decides he's going to be a Boy and not play with
>> Girls, and suddenly every single car and truck and marble is His, no
>> matter who had them first.
She will have her own Lego etc., of course, when she's old enough, and we
found a wonderful Junior Meccano set at a rummage sale, with large plastic
pieces that still work in the same way; they both enjoy this, as well as the
little cars and various sand toys etc. I just think that someone who is
clearly so delighted to be a girl should have support for her attitude, in
the same way that boys do for theirs.
--
Lesley Weston.
Brightly_coloured_blob is real, so as not to upset the sys-apes, but I don't
actually read anything sent to it before I empty it. To reach me, use lesley
att vancouverbc dott nett, changing spelling and spacing as required.
Peachy Ashie Passion
I guess I am confused Lesley, what sort of things are you
imagining and not finding?
Len Oil
Must not be the 'deluxe' version then...
CCA
[toys]
>We have a bunch of barbies, an Action Man and Kocoum
>from Pocahontas.
I used to have an Action Man when I was little. We found him on a beach, clad
only in a wetsuit. He spent the rest of his days getting his 'action' with a
variety of Barbies and Sindys, most of whom had never seen a man in their lives
until he turned up *g*
CCA:)
Family Bites Website and Sample Chapter at http://www.falboroughhall.co.uk
Live Journal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/ciciaye
Lesley Weston
res1...@invalid.net wrote on 24/09/2004 5:36 PM:
> Lesley Weston wrote:
<toys specifically for small girls>
>>
>> She will have her own Lego etc., of course, when she's old enough, and we
>> found a wonderful Junior Meccano set at a rummage sale, with large plastic
>> pieces that still work in the same way; they both enjoy this, as well as the
>> little cars and various sand toys etc. I just think that someone who is
>> clearly so delighted to be a girl should have support for her attitude, in
>> the same way that boys do for theirs.
>>
>
> I guess I am confused Lesley, what sort of things are you
> imagining and not finding?
I don't really know - that's the problem - so it's not surprising you're
confused about it too. But there ought to be some sort of feminine
equivalent to the heavy-plant or monster-truck type of toys that are so
clearly meant for boys. She does play with those things too, but with less
enthusiasm than her brother and for shorter times. She's my granddaughter; I
don't have any daughters, so I haven't encountered this problem before.
Graycat
<brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> jotted down:
>in article 0435d.364$Mf.183@trnddc05, Peachy Ashie Passion at
>res1...@invalid.net wrote on 24/09/2004 5:36 PM:
>> I guess I am confused Lesley, what sort of things are you
>> imagining and not finding?
>
>I don't really know - that's the problem - so it's not surprising you're
>confused about it too. But there ought to be some sort of feminine
>equivalent to the heavy-plant or monster-truck type of toys that are so
>clearly meant for boys. She does play with those things too, but with less
>enthusiasm than her brother and for shorter times. She's my granddaughter; I
>don't have any daughters, so I haven't encountered this problem before.
Well, do you want a pink monster truck? Or completely
different stuff aimed at girls? Off the top of my head the
common girl toys are:
- Dolls, all kinds
- little kitchen stuff
- clothes for dressing up, as a princess, fairy, etc
- plastic jewellery, make up and other frippery
- Pink versions of "boy" toys (lego, cars etc)
As you might notice they toys are all conforming to the
traditional female role(s) - passive, concerned with taking
care of others or making yourself pretty. That's what's seen
as specifically female in most circles.
Then there's the alternative circles, but I think she might
be too young to start celebrating her lunar cycles and
dancing around with a yoni-basket.
Or there's the modern view, there isn't much difference
between the sexes.
Personally, I don't see how you can "revel in your
femininity" without ending up in one of those two
cathegories. Either you subscribe to the view that to be
truly feminine is to devote yourself to looking pretty and
taking care of everyone but yourself, or you turn to the
"mother godess" path. Myself I prefer to just be me, and
screw the molds.
I wore pink when I was a kid, and I read as much He-Man as I
could get my hands on. I was never much for pretend cooking,
or playing mother, but I had barbies and making up new
clothes combinations was heaps of fun. I loved the
Transformers, I loved LEGO, especially the cool black space
villains. I dressed up in my mum's old high heeled shoes and
dresses. I played princess and I played sexy Pirate queen
[1]...
I think that as long as she gets to wear a bit of bink and
put sparkly things in her hair she'll feel planty girly. And
you should get her whatever toy seems most fun, who we
become is in the mix, not the one single thing.
[1] Reading Garth at a young age will do such things to
you...
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/index.html
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
Peachy Ashie Passion
> in article 0435d.364$Mf.183@trnddc05, Peachy Ashie Passion at
> res1...@invalid.net wrote on 24/09/2004 5:36 PM:
>
>
>>Lesley Weston wrote:
>
>
> <toys specifically for small girls>
>
>>>She will have her own Lego etc., of course, when she's old enough, and we
>>>found a wonderful Junior Meccano set at a rummage sale, with large plastic
>>>pieces that still work in the same way; they both enjoy this, as well as the
>>>little cars and various sand toys etc. I just think that someone who is
>>>clearly so delighted to be a girl should have support for her attitude, in
>>>the same way that boys do for theirs.
>>>
>>
>>I guess I am confused Lesley, what sort of things are you
>>imagining and not finding?
>
>
> I don't really know - that's the problem - so it's not surprising you're
> confused about it too. But there ought to be some sort of feminine
> equivalent to the heavy-plant or monster-truck type of toys that are so
> clearly meant for boys. She does play with those things too, but with less
> enthusiasm than her brother and for shorter times. She's my granddaughter; I
> don't have any daughters, so I haven't encountered this problem before.
>
hmm. There are dollies and dressups and princess tiaras. And
loads of craft thingies?
April Goodwin-Smith
<snip>
> I don't really know - that's the problem - so it's not surprising you're
> confused about it too. But there ought to be some sort of feminine
> equivalent to the heavy-plant or monster-truck type of toys that are so
> clearly meant for boys. She does play with those things too, but with less
> enthusiasm than her brother and for shorter times. She's my granddaughter; I
> don't have any daughters, so I haven't encountered this problem before.
>
You could go for working models of real things, like a John Deer truck
or tractor or other equipment. The rational is that real farmers use
them and women are farmers. Do you think that might work? The John
Deer models tend to show up in gift stores (the same kind that carry
plates and dolls), but other models are often at the office of the place
that they represent. I don't know if they have them now, but the last
time we moved, I think Budget had model moving trucks. I've seen
Safeway transports, and occasionally the Post Office does models of the
old red postal trucks - less interesting, I'm sure, since it is not
current, but the idea is to get model representations of real world
things, then they are not specifically "boy" things.
April.
--
"Things that try to look like things often do look more like things than
things. Well known fact." Esmerelda Weatherwax. (Pratchett 1988)
Darin Johnson
> You could go for working models of real things, like a John Deer truck
It's "John Deere". It's normally an unimportant distinction, but the
extra E is necessary to keep the hunters from blasting holes in the
side of tractors.
--
Darin Johnson
Laziness is the father of invention
Lesley Weston
agoodw...@shaw.ca wrote on 25/09/2004 11:28 AM:
> Lesley Weston wrote:
> <snip>
>> I don't really know - that's the problem - so it's not surprising you're
>> confused about it too. But there ought to be some sort of feminine
>> equivalent to the heavy-plant or monster-truck type of toys that are so
>> clearly meant for boys. She does play with those things too, but with less
>> enthusiasm than her brother and for shorter times. She's my granddaughter; I
>> don't have any daughters, so I haven't encountered this problem before.
>>
>
> You could go for working models of real things, like a John Deer truck
> or tractor or other equipment. The rational is that real farmers use
> them and women are farmers. Do you think that might work? The John
> Deer models tend to show up in gift stores (the same kind that carry
> plates and dolls), but other models are often at the office of the place
> that they represent. I don't know if they have them now, but the last
> time we moved, I think Budget had model moving trucks. I've seen
> Safeway transports, and occasionally the Post Office does models of the
> old red postal trucks - less interesting, I'm sure, since it is not
> current, but the idea is to get model representations of real world
> things, then they are not specifically "boy" things.
That's a thought, and they would probably both enjoy them, just as they both
enjoy the Junior Meccano set we found. But I still don't know quite what it
is she seems to need, just that it isn't being supplied. She's two and a
half - perhaps she'll be able to explain it herself soon.
Lesley Weston
gra...@passagen.se wrote on 25/09/2004 4:42 PM:
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:17:00 -0700, Lesley Weston
> <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> jotted down:
>
>> in article 0435d.364$Mf.183@trnddc05, Peachy Ashie Passion at
>> res1...@invalid.net wrote on 24/09/2004 5:36 PM:
>
>>> I guess I am confused Lesley, what sort of things are you
>>> imagining and not finding?
>>
>> I don't really know - that's the problem - so it's not surprising you're
>> confused about it too. But there ought to be some sort of feminine
>> equivalent to the heavy-plant or monster-truck type of toys that are so
>> clearly meant for boys. She does play with those things too, but with less
>> enthusiasm than her brother and for shorter times. She's my granddaughter; I
>> don't have any daughters, so I haven't encountered this problem before.
>
> Well, do you want a pink monster truck? Or completely
> different stuff aimed at girls? Off the top of my head the
> common girl toys are:
>
> - Dolls, all kinds
> - little kitchen stuff
> - clothes for dressing up, as a princess, fairy, etc
> - plastic jewellery, make up and other frippery
> - Pink versions of "boy" toys (lego, cars etc)
That seems to what there is, yes, and it doesn't seem to be what she needs.
She plays with the "Little People" things a lot, making up dramatic stories
for them to act in and doing all the voices including the loud bass ones -
quite impressive, though when they keep calling for help it's a bit
disturbing.
>
> As you might notice they toys are all conforming to the
> traditional female role(s) - passive, concerned with taking
> care of others or making yourself pretty. That's what's seen
> as specifically female in most circles.
Not in her family circle. "Passive" is not a word anyone would use to
describe her, either. Until recently she was still doing the occasional
terrible-twos tantrum, which she does better than I've ever seen it done.
She's a true artist - she gives it everything she's got and it's really
impressive. It doesn't get her what she wants, of course, which is why she
doesn't do it any more, but it is quite remarkable to watch.
>
> Then there's the alternative circles, but I think she might
> be too young to start celebrating her lunar cycles and
> dancing around with a yoni-basket.
She is precocious, but perhaps not to that extent.
>
> Or there's the modern view, there isn't much difference
> between the sexes.
But there is, apparently. Not one being better than the other, just
different, or at least there is in the eyes of this one little girl. She
loves to wear pretty dresses, especially if they're pink, and sparkly things
wherever possible, and she loves to show off all these things. Her brother,
who is four, is always pleased to have new clothes, but doesn't seem to care
too much what they are. Both children are very concerned that the other
doesn't get anything that they don't, as is normal, to the extent that on
the rare occasions when their mother gets a chance to paint her nails, both
children also appear with painted nails.
I seem to be under the impression that everybody wants to hear every
last detail of the fascinating activities of my grandchildren. I'll stop
now.
Peachy Ashie Passion
Well, we do keep asking, don't we?
In all honesty, since my own daughter seemed not to lack, I keep
feeling like a solution exists.
I just think we have to keep asking questions. If we ask enough
questions, we'll pin it down, and be able to answer.
So, what is it that makes you feel she senses something is lacking?
April Goodwin-Smith
> April Goodwin-Smith <agoodw...@shaw.ca> writes:
> > You could go for working models of real things, like a John Deer truck
>
Ack. You are so right. I drive past the dealership everyday; you'd
think it would sink in. :)
Lesley Weston
res1...@invalid.net wrote on 26/09/2004 2:38 PM:
<snip suitable toys for a little girl>
>
> Well, we do keep asking, don't we?
>
> In all honesty, since my own daughter seemed not to lack, I keep
> feeling like a solution exists.
> I just think we have to keep asking questions. If we ask enough
> questions, we'll pin it down, and be able to answer.
That's very kind!
>
> So, what is it that makes you feel she senses something is lacking?
I guess it's that she seems bored and even discontented sometimes. On the
other hand, they came over yesterday and she was entirely happy the whole
time. They pick out their own clothes now, from whatever's clean; both were
wearing jeans and "boyish" T-shirts, but her jeans were candy-striped, with
frills. They both played for a long time with various construction toys
(rummage sales are a wonderful institution), then she branched out into
little cars and then provided further exciting adventures for the Little
People. In the meantime, I had started reading to her brother, so she came
to be read to too. She didn't like the truck book we were reading, so she
picked out another book and "read" it aloud for herself; it seemed to be far
more exciting and dramatic than ours. So I read them both another couple of
books, and then we all played hide-and-seek.
So perhaps there's nothing wrong, and she just needs toys ranging from
Meccano to dolls to dress-up stuff to exercise her imagination on, same as
any other kid.
Peachy Ashie Passion
Perhaps.
She sounds old enough for paints now, too. With a brush, I'd
guess. We adults think they haven't the coordination to use a brush
and will want to be messy, but we are wrong. Littles of that age
are rarely excited about fingerpaints, and want to wash their hands
every 3 minutes.
Playdough and clay are good though.. and even more fun if you can
use a recipe where she can help make the play dough.
If you are the sort of grandmother who can stand it, real cooking
is fun too.. the prepackaged mixes where you only have to add an egg
and some water, those are fabulous for that age. (My kids have
one grandmother who can tolerate anything, and one grandmother who
can't bear to make things from packages, nor have things done
anything less than pefectly. Children helping her is not a good thing.)
Lesley Weston
res1...@invalid.net wrote on 28/09/2004 6:44 AM:
>> in article mFG5d.7681$Ym1.1607@trnddc03, Peachy Ashie Passion at
>> res1...@invalid.net wrote on 26/09/2004 2:38 PM:
>>
>> <snip suitable toys for a little girl>
> She sounds old enough for paints now, too. With a brush, I'd
> guess. We adults think they haven't the coordination to use a brush
> and will want to be messy, but we are wrong. Littles of that age
> are rarely excited about fingerpaints, and want to wash their hands
> every 3 minutes.
>
> Playdough and clay are good though.. and even more fun if you can
> use a recipe where she can help make the play dough.
That's an idea. They have an easel and crayons at home and crayons here, but
no paints SFAIK. Play dough sounds even better.
>
> If you are the sort of grandmother who can stand it, real cooking
> is fun too.. the prepackaged mixes where you only have to add an egg
> and some water, those are fabulous for that age. (My kids have
> one grandmother who can tolerate anything, and one grandmother who
> can't bear to make things from packages, nor have things done
> anything less than pefectly. Children helping her is not a good thing.)
A tradition has grown up over the last couple of years that I make bread
rolls (from scratch) every time they visit, and they both help with all
stages of that; I use a machine to make the dough, but they do everything
else from measuring the ingredients into the machine to kneading and shaping
the dough to painting the rolls with water before they go into the oven.
We've also made muffins (North American style) from scratch, which seemed to
go down well.
Sarah Warren
> She sounds old enough for paints now, too. With a brush, I'd
> guess. We adults think they haven't the coordination to use a brush
> and will want to be messy, but we are wrong. Littles of that age
> are rarely excited about fingerpaints, and want to wash their hands
> every 3 minutes.
*grins*
How old is she? I forget.
Maybe it's just the toddlers I know, but wanting to wash hands every
few minutes isn't entirely universal...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v172/sarahce/smallpaint.jpg
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.770 / Virus Database: 517 - Release Date: 27/09/2004
Peachy Ashie Passion
> "Peachy Ashie Passion" <res1...@invalid.net> wrote
>
>> She sounds old enough for paints now, too. With a brush, I'd
>>guess. We adults think they haven't the coordination to use a brush
>>and will want to be messy, but we are wrong. Littles of that age
>>are rarely excited about fingerpaints, and want to wash their hands
>>every 3 minutes.
>
>
> *grins*
>
> How old is she? I forget.
>
> Maybe it's just the toddlers I know, but wanting to wash hands every
> few minutes isn't entirely universal...
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v172/sarahce/smallpaint.jpg
>
Awww! Thank you for sharing!! That is a fabulous picture!
heh, I believe Lesley said she was 2 and 1/2. And it's not
universal, and it seems to wear off by the time potty training is
solidly established.
And it only works on finger paint. In my experience, even the
prissiest finger painters don't mind a good mud puddle. Or shaving
cream.
It's just something about the consistency of finger paint.
Lesley Weston
wrote on 28/09/2004 2:01 PM:
> "Peachy Ashie Passion" <res1...@invalid.net> wrote
>> She sounds old enough for paints now, too. With a brush, I'd
>> guess. We adults think they haven't the coordination to use a brush
>> and will want to be messy, but we are wrong. Littles of that age
>> are rarely excited about fingerpaints, and want to wash their hands
>> every 3 minutes.
>
> *grins*
>
> How old is she? I forget.
>
> Maybe it's just the toddlers I know, but wanting to wash hands every
> few minutes isn't entirely universal...
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v172/sarahce/smallpaint.jpg
>
What a lovely picture! My granddaughter is two and a half; she does want to
wash her hands whenever possible, but mainly as a chance to play with water.
She and her four-year-old brother also enjoy getting into a state that
necessitates hand-washing, and indeed bathing. This summer, one of the
entertainments [1] we offered on their visits was watering the garden with a
hose. We had to introduce a rule early on - "You are not allowed to water
people unless they want to be watered."
[1] My spillchucker (MS, of course) doesn't like this word. It wants me to
put "entertainment's". Aarrgh!
Graycat
<res1...@invalid.net> jotted down:
>Sarah Warren wrote:
>
>> Maybe it's just the toddlers I know, but wanting to wash hands every
>> few minutes isn't entirely universal...
> heh, I believe Lesley said she was 2 and 1/2. And it's not
>universal, and it seems to wear off by the time potty training is
>solidly established.
>
> And it only works on finger paint. In my experience, even the
>prissiest finger painters don't mind a good mud puddle. Or shaving
>cream.
> It's just something about the consistency of finger paint.
I've never liked getting stuff on my hands - it's slimy and
yuk. To the point where I got told off at school for
refusing to help with the papier mache mine we were doing
because I hated the feel of the glue...
Torak
>
> I've never liked getting stuff on my hands - it's slimy and
> yuk. To the point where I got told off at school for
> refusing to help with the papier mache mine we were doing
> because I hated the feel of the glue...
YAMAICM5 bars of soap
Caroline Alexander
> in article pVd6d.7876$Mf.4074@trnddc05, Peachy Ashie Passion at
> res1...@invalid.net wrote on 28/09/2004 6:44 AM:
>
> >> in article mFG5d.7681$Ym1.1607@trnddc03, Peachy Ashie Passion at
> >> res1...@invalid.net wrote on 26/09/2004 2:38 PM:
> >>
> >> <snip suitable toys for a little girl>
>
> > She sounds old enough for paints now, too. With a brush, I'd
> > guess. We adults think they haven't the coordination to use a brush
> > and will want to be messy, but we are wrong. Littles of that age
> > are rarely excited about fingerpaints, and want to wash their hands
> > every 3 minutes.
> >
> > Playdough and clay are good though.. and even more fun if you can
> > use a recipe where she can help make the play dough.
>
> That's an idea. They have an easel and crayons at home and crayons here, but
> no paints SFAIK. Play dough sounds even better.
Last summer I worked for a company that organises events for children.
They had lots of activity stalls, but the by far most crowded one was
where there was "sand-playdough" to be made.
It's a bit tricky because it has to be heated, but under close
supervision that should not be a problem.
You need "quarry sand" (LEO also gives me "silica sand", "glass sand" or
"pit-iron sand" for that one. 'S just very fine sand.) starch flour and
water. 2 cups of sand, one cup of water and one cup of starch flour go
into a pot (do yourself a favour and put in the water first, otherwise
it becomes nigh unstirrable) and are heated whilst stirring. This takes
a while, but eventually you should end up with a sticky mass that can be
(by an adult! HOT!) formed into balls to cool down. With this you can
then model alligators, cats or chairs, which left to dry for a day can
then be painted. Great fun. I made an alligator.
--
Carl.
Richard Eney
Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>in article mFG5d.7681$Ym1.1607@trnddc03, Peachy Ashie Passion at
>res1...@invalid.net wrote on 26/09/2004 2:38 PM:
>
><snip suitable toys for a little girl>
>> So, what is it that makes you feel she senses something is lacking?
>
>I guess it's that she seems bored and even discontented sometimes. On the
>other hand, they came over yesterday and she was entirely happy the whole
>time. They pick out their own clothes now, from whatever's clean; both were
>wearing jeans and "boyish" T-shirts, but her jeans were candy-striped, with
>frills.
>(rummage sales are a wonderful institution)
<snips>
> So perhaps there's nothing wrong, and she just needs toys ranging from
>Meccano to dolls to dress-up stuff to exercise her imagination on, same as
>any other kid.
Seems likely.
Just found this again... My little great-nieces are 4 and 2 1/2, and both
of them like to play dress-up. They both like mittens made to be animal
puppets (the 'thumb' is the lower jaw). My niece gets costumes at yard
sales and hats of all kinds (larger ones are put away until they grow into
them). Many of their dress-up hats are real adult hats from yard sales
and thrift shops. (Probably the "vintage clothing" people would have
fits...) They both have strong preferences; right now the 4 yo is into
Buzz Lightyear and the 2 yo is into princesses and Tinker Belle, but both
of them are very into pirates. Every little doll (and small toy animal)
in the collection is crammed onto the pirate ship.
=Tamar
Lesley Weston
That sounds familiar. One of the recent adventures that my 2 1/2 year old
granddaughter's Little People had involved a helicopter journey. The only
way they would fit into the helicopter was one at a time and head down, so
that's how they travelled; judging by their voices (provided by their
director), they found this as exciting as all the other things that happen
to them under her direction, and they didn't keep calling for help, either.
Meanwhile, her 4 year old brother was explaining the plot twists of his
latest video game - he's surprisingly dextrous at them. There does seem to
be a wider range of toys available for all kids than when I was little, or
even when their parents were, so presumably this generation will make even
greater contributions to history in due course.